Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the podcast. New listeners, old listeners. Wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world, it is so great to
Speaker 1: have you here, back for another episode as we explore
Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties. Of course, it is guest month,
Speaker 1: December month, and we have an amazing guest, a homegrown
Speaker 1: Ozzie guest here with us today. You may know her
Speaker 1: from her incredible podcast Do You Fucking Mind? Alexis Feddner's How.
Speaker 2: I'm so excited to be here. It was like two
Speaker 2: worlds colliding.
Speaker 1: It's colliding. I was like, this had to happen.
Speaker 2: And I know, never never spoken before. Wow. And we've
Speaker 2: just been sitting here now for like I don't know
Speaker 2: how long, just like we can't stop talking.
Speaker 1: Literally, before we started recording, we were like having a
Speaker 1: discussion around zombie apocalypses.
Speaker 2: I don't know, how do we find fire safety hazards
Speaker 2: and dead bolts on doors?
Speaker 1: Yeah, not really relevant to psychology or self care, but
Speaker 1: nonetheless was fulfilling for me.
Speaker 2: It was I know, we've we've come up with some
Speaker 2: ideas to message our landlords.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, thank you for that. So I think
Speaker 1: I think it's so something that I don't even think
Speaker 1: I said this to you. But when I was in university,
Speaker 1: I was I was a do you fucking mind stand?
Speaker 2: Really amazing.
Speaker 1: I still listen to it now, obviously, but I remember
Speaker 1: going through like my first huge breakup when I was
Speaker 1: ninety eighteen years old, Yeah, and listening to your episodes
Speaker 1: on these like nature Walks through Cam being like, hell, me,
Speaker 1: that is.
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: It's a full circle moment for me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is amazing. And I feel like, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I feel like most of the people that were like
Speaker 2: the ogs who have like shared the podcast and listened
Speaker 2: to it, it's they found me at a time of
Speaker 2: like deepest heartbreak, which is really really cool, and then
Speaker 2: they've like gone on that journey of like self discovery
Speaker 2: and you know learning. I feel like you learned so
Speaker 2: much about yourself when you're heartbroken. It's like the biggest
Speaker 2: learning curve. It's pretty And now I feel this when
Speaker 2: people like I've never been heartbroken. I'm like, I'm a
Speaker 2: little bit sorry for you because it's such I don't know,
Speaker 2: it's such a rich experience.
Speaker 1: I used to say, like heartbreak is sacred, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Because it's exactly as you said. People I think enter
Speaker 1: into a lot of like personal development and self growth
Speaker 1: through heartbreak, and then there's suddenly like awoken to this
Speaker 1: whole bigger spectrum of other things that are going to
Speaker 1: improve their life and that they wouldn't have accessed if
Speaker 1: that like loser hadn't you know, cheated on them or
Speaker 1: like Richie.
Speaker 2: So you need to go through that pain, You need
Speaker 2: to go through something just not being fair, And how
Speaker 2: do you deal with that? Like how do you I
Speaker 2: think before you've experienced that, you've never experienced truly an
Speaker 2: unfair situation where there's no sense that can be made
Speaker 2: from it? Like how do you move forward from something
Speaker 2: that can't be fixed and can't be made sense off?
Speaker 2: And that's where you loan so much about, like your
Speaker 2: resilience and how you make peace with something just yourself
Speaker 2: and not fun closure and not you.
Speaker 1: Know, my god, the closure thing. I was talking to
Speaker 1: a friend of mine the other day and she was like,
Speaker 1: how am I meant to move on when I can't
Speaker 1: stop thinking about this person? And I was like, you
Speaker 1: need to provide your own emotional closure in this moment.
Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
Speaker 1: I don't know. So we're not even talking about heartbreak.
Speaker 1: We may as well be Like I love that we
Speaker 1: just get straight into.
Speaker 2: The straight into it.
Speaker 1: It's like immediately like what are we here for inspiration?
Speaker 1: But what we are really here to talk about today
Speaker 1: is a topic that I think is so important during
Speaker 1: this season of the year, dealing with difficult family members,
Speaker 1: complex family dynamics. I don't love the word toxic, but
Speaker 1: I do think it applies here.
Speaker 2: It does to certain to certain families. It definitely would,
Speaker 2: because I feel like what we were discussing before, with
Speaker 2: some families, there's a lot of there's a lot of issues,
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily toxic. It's just clashing of the
Speaker 2: minds versus situations where it's really genuinely unhealthy and someone's
Speaker 2: genuinely out to get you kind of thing. You know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that was that was something I was really
Speaker 1: interested in asking you about. Is Like, I think we
Speaker 1: use the term like toxic to describe a whole different
Speaker 1: pattern of behaviors. What are some of the key ones
Speaker 1: that you think are most typical of those? Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: in like complex family dynamics, Like what are some of
Speaker 1: the behaviors that we should be looking out for to
Speaker 1: identify that, Like maybe this relationship, although it's family, is
Speaker 1: actually not that healthy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I guess like you've got to like pull
Speaker 2: apart like what is? Because I always say, like, when
Speaker 2: you're trying to form new relationships, like, the biggest thing
Speaker 2: that you can do is just like number one, seek
Speaker 2: to understand. You don't have to agree, but try and
Speaker 2: see where someone's coming from, because sometimes you can look
Speaker 2: at it from a place of oh wow. A big
Speaker 2: one that I get is women who don't get along
Speaker 2: with their sister in laws. And I think a lot
Speaker 2: of that stems from you've taken my brother away from me.
Speaker 2: I'm getting defensive. So if you can understand it from
Speaker 2: that perspective, you're like, can I crack this person and
Speaker 2: get them to like me? Because they're just feeling a
Speaker 2: little bit insecure right now. They're feeling like this person's
Speaker 2: being taken away from them. If I can approach it
Speaker 2: in a clever way, I can turn this around, not
Speaker 2: that it's on your shoulders, but you could potentially by
Speaker 2: opening up to them and being vulnerable to that person,
Speaker 2: and then they're like, oh, you're a human just like me.
Speaker 2: You're not this big, scary girlfriend that swept in and
Speaker 2: taken my brother who's my best friend. You're actually a
Speaker 2: feeling human, And then they can open up versus you
Speaker 2: genuinely feeling attacked because the family might not agree with you. Know,
Speaker 2: the fact that it's a big one is it's a
Speaker 2: gay relationship, or it's a divide in beliefs, or they
Speaker 2: don't like your lifestyle, so they're just like, we don't
Speaker 2: accept you. That's it, and to try and or parents
Speaker 2: a huge one is where mothers don't want to let
Speaker 2: go of their sons, sometimes daughters as well. But if
Speaker 2: I find a really common one is mums like digging
Speaker 2: their heels in being like it's my baby may and
Speaker 2: they want to like coddle their adult son and it's
Speaker 2: like like you yeah, and I've got heaps of listeners,
Speaker 2: but friends as well who really struggle with that one
Speaker 2: and trying to have a decent relationship with the mother
Speaker 2: in law is a huge one. And then when it
Speaker 2: comes to like Christmas holiday season, they want their kids,
Speaker 2: adult kids with them all the time. They want nothing
Speaker 2: to have changed. So it's I guess it's really difficult
Speaker 2: to navigate this real lifelationship when they're the ones that
Speaker 2: have to like, they've got their kids, They've got to
Speaker 2: accept that their kids are growing up and the dynamic
Speaker 2: is going to change, and a lot of families can't
Speaker 2: accept that. They can't accept change, Whereas you're the one
Speaker 2: who's like, well, I'm just growing into this world. I'm
Speaker 2: becoming an adult. I'm experiencing all these new things. Why
Speaker 2: am I being attacked? What have I done wrong?
Speaker 1: I'm listening to that being like applying that to so
Speaker 1: many situations in my own life. I'm like, wow, that
Speaker 1: is actually quite universal. Yeah, that is so universal. You
Speaker 1: made such a good point there. I think the reason
Speaker 1: why a lot of us in our twenties in particular,
Speaker 1: start to experience this friction for the first time is
Speaker 1: because we are It is the first kind of period
Speaker 1: or chapter in our life in which we are rejecting
Speaker 1: the label of child. And that's just not like personally,
Speaker 1: that's like saying almost to our families, I'm not a
Speaker 1: kid anymore, like your relationship to me might be that
Speaker 1: I'm your child, but I'm also an adult who is
Speaker 1: trying to set up their own life, who has boundaries
Speaker 1: around how I want to be treated now. And I
Speaker 1: think it's also natural to go through a period where
Speaker 1: you detach from your family and then you come back.
Speaker 1: The other one that I think is really interesting, which
Speaker 1: comes up all the time during this period is differing
Speaker 1: political beliefs. And I find this in my own family
Speaker 1: quite a bit. My parents are not with my parents
Speaker 1: per se, but with like my extended family, where just
Speaker 1: because you're a lated doesn't mean you're going to agree
Speaker 1: on everything. What some of your advice from that? Have
Speaker 1: you seen that like in your friendship group as well?
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely. And when it comes to political this is
Speaker 2: like a really good topic because I feel like when
Speaker 2: it comes to difference in politics, one thing that I
Speaker 2: always raise with my family, my in laws, with anyone
Speaker 2: who might differ in their political blast friends, is that
Speaker 2: I say, there's a difference between a debate. I love
Speaker 2: a debate versus an argument, and I don't think it's
Speaker 2: the healthiest thing to become emotionally attached to a political party.
Speaker 2: You should be able to criticize the party that you
Speaker 2: are voting for. That's what makes an informed decision. So
Speaker 2: when I see people get really emotional and angry about
Speaker 2: a political thing, it's like, are you forming your identity
Speaker 2: around this attachment or are you able to be like,
Speaker 2: this is the right party for this time to run
Speaker 2: this country? You know, So you should be able to
Speaker 2: flick between political parties. You shouldn't make your identity about
Speaker 2: a party. And if you happen to align with a
Speaker 2: party for your whole life, fun.
Speaker 1: That's great.
Speaker 2: But it's this idea if I think people feel when
Speaker 2: you attack the political party, you're attacking me. Now I'm
Speaker 2: going to get angry. Now you're going to get defensive.
Speaker 2: But it's like I'm not I'm just raising something. Have
Speaker 2: you thought about it in this way? Have you looked
Speaker 2: at it in that way? And I always say to people,
Speaker 2: I like to debate, but if you're going to start
Speaker 2: character assassinating me, then I can't have this conversation. But
Speaker 2: I'd love to discuss. I'd love I don't have to
Speaker 2: change your mind, you don't have to change mind, But
Speaker 2: I like I like seeing how other people think. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and teaching me why they think that way, as long
Speaker 2: as they're open to hearing the same back.
Speaker 1: Nice It's like coming at it from approach of openness
Speaker 1: and learning. I always I was saying this to someone
Speaker 1: the other day. You sometimes get into these discussions with
Speaker 1: people and you can see it in their eyes that
Speaker 1: they are looking for an argument, like do you know
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about? It's like this fire where it's
Speaker 1: like you can see that something has lit up in them,
Speaker 1: where you can tell in those moments that what you're
Speaker 1: talking about for you might be a discussion for them
Speaker 1: is a projection.
Speaker 2: Of their identity big time.
Speaker 1: And those are the topics that you need to just I.
Speaker 2: Think step away from.
Speaker 1: Step away from.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, because and the people that and you can
Speaker 2: figure this out really really quickly when you speak to
Speaker 2: someone and you can tell that they're just thinking of
Speaker 2: the next thing they're going to say instead of listening
Speaker 2: to it. You're actually saying and responding accordingly. So it's like,
Speaker 2: I know, you're just brewing up your next argument, you're
Speaker 2: not listening to me. So I think sometimes you also
Speaker 2: have to just pick your battles with certain people you're
Speaker 2: not going to be able to have a healthy debate
Speaker 2: with everybody. And sometimes I think while you are in
Speaker 2: your right to say what you want to say, sometimes
Speaker 2: I think for your own peace of mind, just don't
Speaker 2: just for your own safe you know, you just suffer.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you cause yourself all this suffering because you're like,
Speaker 2: but you know, I can have these conversations with these people,
Speaker 2: but they're different people. You know, You've got to manage
Speaker 2: your expectations around people.
Speaker 1: Especially with family. It's like I think if it's hard
Speaker 1: because I think when we're talking about dealing with difficult
Speaker 1: family members, right, like we have a few categories here.
Speaker 1: We have, as you said, like the relationships where there
Speaker 1: is friction caused by change, where you know, the son
Speaker 1: has grown up and gotten a girlfriend and the mother
Speaker 1: is like really struggling to deal with that. I think
Speaker 1: that's like environmental. I think part of that is also
Speaker 1: we can put in like political beliefs as well. There's
Speaker 1: like a there is again a friction in that sense
Speaker 1: of like there is a disagreement. Then you have like
Speaker 1: genuinely severe behaviors like narcissism, like compulsive liars, like even
Speaker 1: abuse or controlling behaviors, which we'll talk about more in
Speaker 1: a second. And then I think you have this other side,
Speaker 1: which is parents who are really or family members who
Speaker 1: are really trying their best but are dealing with something
Speaker 1: that is making it so your relationship is free. So
Speaker 1: I got this question the other day from someone that
Speaker 1: was talking about how her mother is experiencing a really
Speaker 1: bad episode of depression and that is by nature creating
Speaker 1: difficulties in their relationship, creating a difficult dynamic where her
Speaker 1: mother is probably not isn't really acting in a way
Speaker 1: that I think is how we would see in mother
Speaker 1: acting because of what's going on. How do you think
Speaker 1: we deal with those different categories of people, like the friction,
Speaker 1: like the clinical severe, and then just the people who
Speaker 1: are perhaps not in a great place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So with people that are not in a great place,
Speaker 2: I always say whether it could be depression or like
Speaker 2: there's so many different, you know, categories, But always try
Speaker 2: and remind yourself that that person is not the depression.
Speaker 2: That person is not the X, Y Z. You know,
Speaker 2: they are two separate things. So sometimes someone might treat
Speaker 2: you in a certain way or push you away, or
Speaker 2: create conflict within the relationship because they're going through this
Speaker 2: internal suffering and it impacts the relationship, and it's you know, ideally,
Speaker 2: you want to find a way so the relationship doesn't
Speaker 2: break down. You want to find a way of being like,
Speaker 2: every time I have this interaction, I have to be
Speaker 2: at the forefront of my mind. Has to be they
Speaker 2: are not the depression and them are two separate things,
Speaker 2: and the depression will get in the way and that's
Speaker 2: not their intention. So how do you find a way
Speaker 2: to maintain your boundaries for your own mental health but
Speaker 2: also have patients and understanding in that space and sometimes
Speaker 2: you might need to pull away just little bit and
Speaker 2: be there for them, but say, you know, you know,
Speaker 2: like I can't spend ten hours with my mum now
Speaker 2: because it's I leave and I'm in a state. But
Speaker 2: maybe I can find different ways of really being there
Speaker 2: for her. That's just going to have to be different.
Speaker 2: Sometimes your relationships will have to evolve in a different
Speaker 2: way so you feel like you're still there for them,
Speaker 2: but you also have to, you know, protect yourself as well,
Speaker 2: so you're not also going to be spiraling as well.
Speaker 2: I think that all relationships are always evolving and to
Speaker 2: think and this is where a lot of problems with
Speaker 2: relationships start with parents. The dynamic between parents and children
Speaker 2: is that you always have to look at relationships as evolving.
Speaker 2: If you accuse someone of you've changed, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: that's inevitable, of course they've changed. Everyone's going to change. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and when I look at my relationship with my partner,
Speaker 2: I know that we're going to go through many relationships
Speaker 2: within this one relationship. Who will be when we're forty
Speaker 2: is not who we were when we met, And it's
Speaker 2: your job to try your best to evolve together, you know.
Speaker 2: But to think I never changed, you changed, and this
Speaker 2: is why the marriage broke down, which happens all the time,
Speaker 2: or with parents and kids, it's like, well, isn't that
Speaker 2: what we're supposed to do. Aren't we supposed to evolve
Speaker 2: and change? And that can happen for the worst as well,
Speaker 2: you know, with someone getting sick, someone having you know,
Speaker 2: some disorder. You've got to find a way to come
Speaker 2: into that next phase of the relationship and it will
Speaker 2: be different.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's actually it's really hard when that happens. I
Speaker 1: think because we all like to talk about unconditional love,
Speaker 1: and unconditional love sounds brilliant, and I do think it's possible.
Speaker 1: But I think, especially as you begin to realize that
Speaker 1: your parents are human too, we see them as being
Speaker 1: on this pedestal for a lot of our lives. So long, yeah,
Speaker 1: for so long. And I think that all of us
Speaker 1: have a moment, and I'm sure you have one where
Speaker 1: you were like, oh, my parent is like my mom,
Speaker 1: my dad is this is their first time being alive
Speaker 1: as well, like they are figuring all of this out
Speaker 1: at the same time as me. They're just a little
Speaker 1: bit further along. So true, And it's so I think
Speaker 1: that's difficult when you see them go through hard periods
Speaker 1: and maybe it's like hard periods in your parents marriage.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's like how your relationship with your parent is
Speaker 1: going to adapt post.
Speaker 2: Divorce, like exactly, and seeing them suffer and seeing them
Speaker 2: overcome things, and being like, wow, you were this this
Speaker 2: untouchable thing when I was a kid who knew everything,
Speaker 2: and now I'm realizing that, you know, I'm soon going
Speaker 2: to be the age that you were at, you know,
Speaker 2: and you just start having it's like, wow, how are
Speaker 2: you parenting? And I'm that age now? And how you know,
Speaker 2: It's just it blows your mind to realize you didn't
Speaker 2: have it all figured out when I was a.
Speaker 1: Kid, and maybe giving them that if it is like
Speaker 1: the right decision for you, giving them that level of
Speaker 1: like not just forgiveness, but like that that space to
Speaker 1: make mistakes as much as you are still like you
Speaker 1: think viewing it's not that you need to view your
Speaker 1: parents as a friend, because I think that changes the
Speaker 1: dydamic it does. It can be quite difficult, but viewing
Speaker 1: them as just as fallible, just as like flawed as
Speaker 1: you are, and the same way that you would want
Speaker 1: other people to accept your mistakes, you should be willing
Speaker 1: to accept a degree of their mistakes as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's really important. There are some instances though,
Speaker 1: where that is not possible exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you mentioned narcissists and narcissistic parents or in
Speaker 2: laws is like a really difficult one.
Speaker 1: I have a great episode on this, by the way, to.
Speaker 2: Have a specific episode on that, because I did want
Speaker 2: on narcissist and then I had all these people being
Speaker 2: like what about mother in law? What about my mum?
Speaker 2: What about my dad? And so I thought, okay, well
Speaker 2: this absolutely.
Speaker 1: I'll put it in the discription.
Speaker 2: You hear a lot about narcissists in relationships, and normally
Speaker 2: you'll hear it being the man who's the narcissist and
Speaker 2: the woman who's dating it. But then when you hear
Speaker 2: about because you can have just as many female as male,
Speaker 2: it's hard to put a number on it because a
Speaker 2: lot of people who are narcissists aren't going and getting
Speaker 2: diagnosed assists. None of them probably extreme, not probably, it's
Speaker 2: definitely extremely underdiagnosed. But that's when you see it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is across all genders. You know, this doesn't matter,
Speaker 2: you could. Narcissistic parents are a huge one. And the
Speaker 2: weird thing is that often the child, so say you're
Speaker 2: dating someone and their parents are clearly narcissists, often the
Speaker 2: person you're dating doesn't realize that. They're just like, oh,
Speaker 2: they're just difficult. Oh they make all these excuses similar
Speaker 2: to what we were just talking about before, where your
Speaker 2: parents are these you want them to be perfect. They're
Speaker 2: your parents, You are them, you know, you're you're That's why,
Speaker 2: like it hurts to see your parents criticize the other
Speaker 2: parent because you're like, you're criticizing half of me, you know.
Speaker 2: It's it's really that's why children suffer and divorce if
Speaker 2: it's if it's a horrible divorce because they feel torn,
Speaker 2: you know. And so when you when you're trying to
Speaker 2: let your partner realize without being aggressive, how do you
Speaker 2: get your partner to really identify that their parents are narcissistic?
Speaker 2: Sometimes they see it, sometimes they don't. And when they
Speaker 2: don't see it, it's really hard to have a gate that.
Speaker 2: So I always say, don't straight up say to someone
Speaker 2: your parents a narcissist, your mother is a narcissist. You
Speaker 2: I always start with, always put the question back on them,
Speaker 2: like does this behavior happen all the time? When you know,
Speaker 2: to start start getting them to do some self discovery.
Speaker 2: When was the first time they did something like that?
Speaker 2: Or when was the first time they put you in
Speaker 2: that position? And do they do that with all your siblings?
Speaker 2: And you just start like just just questions and then
Speaker 2: they're like, oh wow, oh yeah, right, that's not weird
Speaker 2: and then they figure it out for themselves. You just
Speaker 2: got to get dig under the surface. And then it's
Speaker 2: then you create an environment where it's comfortable for them
Speaker 2: to talk about it and never ever character assassinate your
Speaker 2: partner's parents. No matter how annoyed you are, because again
Speaker 2: you're insulting them, you know, like obviously you're not meaning to,
Speaker 2: but that's how they perceive it as It's like the
Speaker 2: whole thing of like, oh, I'm allowed to talk shit
Speaker 2: about this person, but the moment you do, it's not okay.
Speaker 2: You know, like you know what, Like you'll break up
Speaker 2: with someone and then you're allowed to say everything under
Speaker 2: the sun about that person. But then if someone in
Speaker 2: you're like, oh what, You're like, I love them?
Speaker 1: So what does that say about me? Yeah? What do
Speaker 1: you do? What? You are you judging my judgment or
Speaker 1: my choices and you know that they're right. Same thing
Speaker 1: with siblings, you know they're right. Yes, it's like I'm
Speaker 1: allowed to say whatever I want about my sisters a minute,
Speaker 1: like they come to me again one of their friends
Speaker 1: said something, Oh my god, I'm like, I fucking got you, Dad.
Speaker 2: Like say that rude, But then you can say it,
Speaker 2: you know. It's kind of that dynamic. So I think
Speaker 2: definitely tread carefully, but I think that if you can
Speaker 2: set up a really comfortable open space to have a
Speaker 2: conversation about the behaviors off your parents always said, like
Speaker 2: turn it into speaking about the behavior. I'm not them
Speaker 2: as a person. This behavior is unhealthy, this behavior is unacceptable.
Speaker 2: I'm going to put a boundary against this interaction or
Speaker 2: this situation so it doesn't happen again. And then you're
Speaker 2: not saying they're an asshole, they're an idiot, they're fucked
Speaker 2: in the head, you know, because if you start saying
Speaker 2: stuff like that, then that's when it comes across as
Speaker 2: you like genuinely. Even if you do, it makes it
Speaker 2: look like you hate their parents. And it's how do
Speaker 2: I navigate this carefully? Because if your partner didn't have
Speaker 2: a good enough relationship with their parents, that wouldn't be
Speaker 2: an issue because the only reason you say your in
Speaker 2: laws is because your partner has a good relationship with
Speaker 2: their in laws, you know. So the difficulty in navigating
Speaker 2: it is when your partner has that relationship and you've
Speaker 2: got a slot in there somehow.
Speaker 1: It's also really interesting because it kind of shows this
Speaker 1: weird distinction, right, not so much a distinction, but somewhat
Speaker 1: of an innate competition as we get older between the
Speaker 1: family we grew up with and the family that we're
Speaker 1: going on to create. And I think that sometimes It's
Speaker 1: very easy for people to be like, well, this is
Speaker 1: my family now I need to prioritize my partner and
Speaker 1: our future together. But that's also a really hard distinction
Speaker 1: for some people to make. There is still that innate
Speaker 1: loyalty to the people that have raised them. And maybe
Speaker 1: you are someone who is recognizing for yourself that your
Speaker 1: own parents are like that. How do you go about
Speaker 1: I guess, or it might not even be narcissism. It
Speaker 1: might be that in the past things were not as
Speaker 1: healthy as they are now. They might still be unhealthy, toxic,
Speaker 1: whatever label you want to give it. How do you
Speaker 1: go about having those difficult conversations once you have identified
Speaker 1: and done some of that exploration and realize that this person,
Speaker 1: although you may love them, is perhaps not a good
Speaker 1: figure in your life right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really hard, as we all know. Like I
Speaker 2: think it's really hard to bring up to somebody that
Speaker 2: they to criticize their parenting because for a parent, their
Speaker 2: biggest job, their biggest accomplishment is raising a human more
Speaker 2: than one human, you know, And to go in and
Speaker 2: criticize them, it's so hard to do it, to do
Speaker 2: it like delicately, and even if you do it in
Speaker 2: the most delicate way. They're not going to take it
Speaker 2: in the best way possible. But I do still think
Speaker 2: obviously it's important to do so. And when setting a boundary,
Speaker 2: when saying something, the best way to start is you
Speaker 2: say I no longer feel comfortable with this, or you
Speaker 2: make it about you. Every time I set a boundary,
Speaker 2: I make sure that it's about me, because if I
Speaker 2: say you do this, and you do that, and you
Speaker 2: you you, you, you, then it feels like it's an
Speaker 2: attack and it feels like I'm trying to control how
Speaker 2: they're behaving. But if I say, listen, next time this
Speaker 2: situation arises, I don't want to be here if you're
Speaker 2: going to start yelling at me, or I don't want
Speaker 2: to you know, you try and just make it a
Speaker 2: bit more about I'm going to draw a line here.
Speaker 2: I've got a friend of mine and she had a
Speaker 2: really unhealthy relationship with her partner's mum. And I just
Speaker 2: said to her, you're going over every Sunday and you're
Speaker 2: spending like ten hours or eight hours, ten hours and
Speaker 2: just so unpleasant the environment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine.
Speaker 2: And then I said, firstly, why don't you draw a
Speaker 2: line and say I don't have to go every Sunday
Speaker 2: for starters. I don't. I'm my own person, I'm an adult,
Speaker 2: and when I do go, I can either come a
Speaker 2: little bit later or I can leave a bit earlier.
Speaker 2: And then that just shows like it's it shows a
Speaker 2: level of independence, and it's like an unsaid rule of
Speaker 2: like I can control myself here, Like I want to
Speaker 2: come and see you, but I'm not pandering to everything
Speaker 2: that you want. You know, just because my partner wants
Speaker 2: to be here for ten hours, I don't have to.
Speaker 2: And it's not about being rude. You've come in, you
Speaker 2: give them the time of day, you have the conversation,
Speaker 2: you're putting in the effort. But then you're saying, okay,
Speaker 2: so good to see you guys, say yah my, just
Speaker 2: like remove yourself from there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no question about it, Like no, I will not
Speaker 1: stay coffee.
Speaker 2: Because sometimes the hard thing is that sometimes you will
Speaker 2: have the best idea for the best conversation and you'll
Speaker 2: say and it's just not going to be taken in
Speaker 2: the right way, and they're just going to feel attacked.
Speaker 2: Sometimes a conversation cannot be had, and the only thing
Speaker 2: you can do is Okay, given what I've got, like
Speaker 2: given what's in front of me, I have to work
Speaker 2: with what I've got, and the best way to work
Speaker 2: with what I've got is to limit the interaction. So
Speaker 2: when I'm there, I'll just give it my all. But
Speaker 2: it's small doses, and then you find I can actually
Speaker 2: handle these people in small doses. Like a lot of people,
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, I love my in laws because I
Speaker 2: live three hours flying off right away, you know, so
Speaker 2: we go there, I just don't get my time.
Speaker 1: I do my best.
Speaker 2: We don't like, we clash, but it's fine, and then
Speaker 2: I leave. If they were my neighbors, i'd hate them.
Speaker 2: So it's that kind of So how can you how
Speaker 2: can you navigate that if you live in the same city,
Speaker 2: Just like bring it back a little bit, feel like
Speaker 2: you're a little bit more in control of yourself, And
Speaker 2: I think that will really help you feel like, you know,
Speaker 2: not so much anxiety when you then have to go
Speaker 2: spend time with potential in laws or even your own
Speaker 2: parents who might be causing you so much so much stress.
Speaker 2: And then but then you've got like the really unhealthy relationships.
Speaker 2: And I always say, like, just because you are tied
Speaker 2: together by blood. No one has a ticket into your
Speaker 2: life for free. No one's got this golden ticket into
Speaker 2: your life. People have to earn their place in your
Speaker 2: life just you have to earn your place in someone
Speaker 2: else's life. You can't go around disrespecting someone indefinitely and
Speaker 2: expect for your seat to still be there.
Speaker 1: Person.
Speaker 2: So, if it means cutting out someone because they treat
Speaker 2: you like shit, cut the person out, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think that there's some steps. I totally agree
Speaker 1: with that as well. I think there are some steps
Speaker 1: to take beforehand. The one that you just the example
Speaker 1: that you just gave is like re establishing your independence
Speaker 1: as an individual that goes for your in laws and
Speaker 1: then also for your own parents, even for like sibling
Speaker 1: relationships that are quite draining or codependent or any form
Speaker 1: of family relationship. Maintaining a sense of independence when that
Speaker 1: person is trying to take more from you than you're
Speaker 1: willing to give as a huge one. But I do
Speaker 1: think there is something to be said about setting boundaries
Speaker 1: and seeing how people respond. Sometimes the outcome of a
Speaker 1: boundary is not that their behavior change changes, but that
Speaker 1: you see that they're incapable of doing it. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: is something that I've started to realize where it's like,
Speaker 1: I think we often talk about, oh, you need to
Speaker 1: set a boundary, and we are like, oh, and then
Speaker 1: immediately assume that that person is going to beat that
Speaker 1: boundary once it's been spoken and into existence.
Speaker 2: That's right, and they don't all that.
Speaker 1: Time, and that is actually just as might be disappointing,
Speaker 1: but it's just as valuable to you to teach you
Speaker 1: about their behavior.
Speaker 2: It is. And sometimes setting a boundary doesn't mean that
Speaker 2: it's going to be respected. But you vocalized where your
Speaker 2: limit is, and now it's not this arbitrary thing. It's
Speaker 2: like I've now told you where that limit is. Whether
Speaker 2: you respect it or not, it's up to me how
Speaker 2: to respond to you respecting. But I always say a
Speaker 2: boundary is not a boundary unless there are consequences. You know,
Speaker 2: you can't say this is my boundary and have it
Speaker 2: stopped all of it every time. It's not a boundary.
Speaker 2: It's your your you wish it was your boundary, But
Speaker 2: unless there is a consequence for that boundary being crossed,
Speaker 2: it's not a boundary.
Speaker 1: Oh that's such a good point. I think about this
Speaker 1: like in relation to a family member of mine who
Speaker 1: has a real problem with making comments about people's appearance times,
Speaker 1: which I think is a big one. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: I could get it, like different generation like this. I
Speaker 1: totally understand that that's they think that's fine, but I
Speaker 1: don't understand it anymore because I think that we have
Speaker 1: been very clear with them. My siblings have also been
Speaker 1: involved in this. I mean, like, no, you cannot make
Speaker 1: those comments anymore. And when you said a boundary is
Speaker 1: not a boundary without consequences, we were for years being like,
Speaker 1: please don't say that, Please don't say that. I'm uncomfortable
Speaker 1: with you saying that. It was only when we were like,
Speaker 1: if you say that, we won't be coming here anymore
Speaker 1: exactly that they were like oh, or like okay, I
Speaker 1: really did enjoy that I'm leaving. Now that they started.
Speaker 2: To listen to stand up and leave, that's a huge statement,
Speaker 2: like it's that uncomfortable for me. You've made this so unpleasant.
Speaker 2: I'd rather not be here literally, And that's when it's like, oh, wow,
Speaker 2: this is that's when they really Unfortunately it has to
Speaker 2: get to that point, but that's when they realize, oh
Speaker 2: my god, the fact that they're willing to leave. That's
Speaker 2: really not okay, you know.
Speaker 1: It really and I think it was, and it was uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: It was uncomfortable being in those moments, but it was
Speaker 1: also uncomfortable walking away from them, of course, because I
Speaker 1: think that that's the other thing. People, The reason that
Speaker 1: we cannot always set boundaries that work is because we
Speaker 1: think that setting a boundary is just a matter of
Speaker 1: of just like you said, of just saying setting an
Speaker 1: intention for how we want to be treated, rather than
Speaker 1: actually instigating it. So what are some tips for being
Speaker 1: like firstly identifying a boundary, secondly really sticking to it,
Speaker 1: sticking to it and enforcing it as well.
Speaker 2: So there's two because you can look at it in
Speaker 2: I mean, you can call it a boundary, but in
Speaker 2: your head you could say, look, I could request that
Speaker 2: someone speak to me a certain way, you know, but
Speaker 2: ultimately I've just decided that no matter how they tret me,
Speaker 2: I'm never walking away. But I could just request it.
Speaker 2: That's one thing, and that's where you have zero expectations
Speaker 2: of the response and you'd just be like, all right,
Speaker 2: whatever comes, I'm just gonna accept. The second one is
Speaker 2: the boundary where you're like okay, only set a boundary
Speaker 2: when you know what it looks like once it's crossed.
Speaker 2: So when you say I'm setting this boundary, what now
Speaker 2: happens if they cross that boundary? What am I going
Speaker 2: to do? Because I've now put an expectation. A boundary
Speaker 2: has an expectation. A request hopefully doesn't like you would
Speaker 2: like them to start treating you nicely, but also you're like,
Speaker 2: could you please, and their answer could be known and
Speaker 2: you're like, okay, sick. Whereas the boundary, you're like, all right,
Speaker 2: if I'm going to set this boundary, I have to
Speaker 2: be willing to know what it looks like if they
Speaker 2: cross it, and know exactly what my actions will be.
Speaker 2: Make a game plan for yourself. Don't because then if
Speaker 2: you go and say this is my boundary and then
Speaker 2: they cross it, then you're like oh, and you choke up,
Speaker 2: and then the pressures on yourself and you feel terrible,
Speaker 2: and then you feel like you've been undermined.
Speaker 1: Yes once again, and you're like, oh, it just hurts
Speaker 1: the relationships, and then your confidence is shot and you're like, well,
Speaker 1: now my word means nothing because now if I try
Speaker 1: and set another boundary, they didn't respect that one.
Speaker 2: They're not going to respect this one. So before you
Speaker 2: go in with the boundary, give yourself a bit of
Speaker 2: for PP talk and be like, Okay, if I'm going
Speaker 2: to set this boundary, what happens when they cross? What
Speaker 2: will my actions be? I think the best one is
Speaker 2: to remove yourself from the situation and don't make it
Speaker 2: this universal like I'm never coming back. No, just saying
Speaker 2: I'm like you like you did. It's something simple as
Speaker 2: when this happens, I'm not going to be in this space.
Speaker 2: So if you say it in the first minute of
Speaker 2: me arriving, I leave. If you say it after an hour,
Speaker 2: I leave. I'm just not going to be here if
Speaker 2: you're going to talk to me like that. And you
Speaker 2: can also say and you'll realize that the more you
Speaker 2: do it, the less I'm going to want to prioritize
Speaker 2: hanging out with you versus hanging out with another invitation
Speaker 2: that I might have had. And you know, people, whether
Speaker 2: you like it or not, people do have a hierarchy
Speaker 2: of who they want to spend time with, and it's
Speaker 2: the ones that they feel the most comfortable in themselves around,
Speaker 2: and they're the people you put at the top of
Speaker 2: that list and no matter how close they are or
Speaker 2: not to you as far as blood goes. So I
Speaker 2: think if you can, if you feel comfortable enough to
Speaker 2: be like, okay, if this happens, I'm walking away.
Speaker 1: Then set that boundary and you don't even have to
Speaker 1: say it, Like you don't even have to be like
Speaker 1: I have to know. So I think about this in
Speaker 1: times of a story, and another friend of mine said
Speaker 1: a big one is comments about not just appearance, but
Speaker 1: comments about any kind of choice that you're making, your
Speaker 1: lifestyle or even things that like your sexuality, things that
Speaker 1: you don't have a choice around, where it's like, what
Speaker 1: are you trying to do here? When you're trying to
Speaker 1: change my mind? Like, yeah, that's ridiculous. Like, I think
Speaker 1: that's a big one. The other one is people who
Speaker 1: are compulsive liars or controlling, So people who are like
Speaker 1: can you do this now? Or like who are Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's a huge one, where they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: if you're in my house, you have to do X,
Speaker 1: Y and Z yes.
Speaker 2: Controlling yeah, And I find that controlling and compulsive liars.
Speaker 2: I think both of those things will fall under the
Speaker 2: category of I think when people can't control themselves, they
Speaker 2: control everyone else around them. Yes, So the less control
Speaker 2: you have over who you are and your circumstances, you
Speaker 2: try and control everyone. You look at those relationships where
Speaker 2: they're so controlling. These people are not happy with the
Speaker 2: life they've created for themselves. So they're like, given that
Speaker 2: I feel like I'm out of control in my circumstances,
Speaker 2: I'm going to control you, yeah, and feel like I'm empowered. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know. And the same goes for that, you know,
Speaker 2: like getting people to do things for them. You know
Speaker 2: this has to be done. You've come into my space
Speaker 2: and now you've got to do this. It's all about
Speaker 2: a lack of control in their own life and a
Speaker 2: lack of satisfaction as well. I feel that's so sad.
Speaker 1: It's like a displacement, right, Like yeah, classic Frodian.
Speaker 2: Feel.
Speaker 1: You're like, oh yeah, And that's the thing, right, If
Speaker 1: they're acting in that way, you can just walk away
Speaker 1: without even being like I'm leaving now, like and text
Speaker 1: them later, just be like, Okay, my absence is a
Speaker 1: is a message here and hopefully they pick up on it.
Speaker 1: If you don't have the confidence to actually say that,
Speaker 1: and I think, yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a huge one. What you just said with
Speaker 2: the confidence, because I think a lot of people think,
Speaker 2: on top of the fact that I've got to do
Speaker 2: this action, I then have to say something. And a
Speaker 2: lot of people they've not lived a life where they've
Speaker 2: just confidently said things whenever they thought it, and it's
Speaker 2: very difficult for a confident person. It's like, I'll just
Speaker 2: say it, But it's not like that for a lot
Speaker 2: of people. What do you mean you want me to
Speaker 2: stand up to my parents for the first time ever?
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's daunting. So, like you said, you
Speaker 2: don't have to say something. You can just leave And
Speaker 2: I always say a text message, a letter, handwritten letter
Speaker 2: in the mail, but whatever to get your point across
Speaker 2: where you're cool, calm and collected. Yes, is the best
Speaker 2: way to do it. If you can do it in person, great,
Speaker 2: But most people can't because they're like, yeah, it's anxiety.
Speaker 2: It's so stressful. You've got all these good things to
Speaker 2: say the moment you get home. Why didn't I say
Speaker 2: all these things? You know, just remove yourself, cool, like,
Speaker 2: calm down, write everything you need to say and then
Speaker 2: read it later, not don't send it straight away. Yeah,
Speaker 2: they're like that a little bit and then send it.
Speaker 2: You know, that might be away.
Speaker 1: The other thing that you said there where I was
Speaker 1: like that is another really good reason to do that
Speaker 1: is because in the moment, like you said, you are
Speaker 1: probably going to be experiencing a great deal of anxiety.
Speaker 1: Is one of the first times you've ever been like
Speaker 1: to a family member, Hey, not acceptable. Sometimes people can
Speaker 1: be really reactive to that, and that is going to
Speaker 1: escalate to the point where you are really reactive to
Speaker 1: how they've responded, and people get really worked up. You're
Speaker 1: going to feel like your sense of control over the situation,
Speaker 1: your ability to speak up for yourself is slipping. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because this person is kind of using emotional warfare at
Speaker 1: that point, you.
Speaker 2: Know, intentionally, unintentionally, Yeah, And like, anger is a secondary
Speaker 2: emotion to an initial underlying emotion. So when someone gets angry,
Speaker 2: if you're also angry, it's game over as far as
Speaker 2: where you can go from there. Because if two people
Speaker 2: are angry, they're actually using anger to try and communicate
Speaker 2: the fact that they feel abandoned, that they feel rejected,
Speaker 2: that they feel insecure, that they feel attacked, you know,
Speaker 2: But it's anger, so it's aggressive and so you put
Speaker 2: your wall up and respond with aggression, you get nowhere
Speaker 2: and that's where you go through this like standoff and
Speaker 2: you don't talk for days. It's just so when someone
Speaker 2: gets angry, I always say, like, there's no talking to
Speaker 2: someone who's angry. And if you have yet to slip
Speaker 2: into anger, just remove yourself out of the way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: And I'd be like, I'm down, because that would just
Speaker 2: stir someonet more. Just say I'd rather talk about this, yeah,
Speaker 2: And and to take ownership of it even if you're
Speaker 2: not blowing up. I always advise you say something like,
Speaker 2: let's talk about this when we've both calmed down, you know,
Speaker 2: so you make it like we are hated. Let's just
Speaker 2: not just you. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, because I'm hated
Speaker 2: in my head right now, you know. And so I think, yeah,
Speaker 2: never respond to anger. It's just not worth it. And
Speaker 2: pee and and as you would know, you know you,
Speaker 2: when people are fired up, it's harder to be logic
Speaker 2: to make a logical argument or a statement. You're emotional,
Speaker 2: you're it's it's all reactive. You're not thinking proactively, you're
Speaker 2: not reasoning. So that's why it would benefit them to
Speaker 2: walk off and cool off for a bit and think about, Okay,
Speaker 2: what am I actually feeling?
Speaker 1: You know, especially if you're a sensitive person as well. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's if you're someone else's emotions. If you're an EmPATH, like,
Speaker 1: you're going to pick up on those. You know, there's
Speaker 1: no controlling that. When someone is like gotten to the
Speaker 1: point where they can't manage their emotions, you are going
Speaker 1: to pick up on that. You're going to.
Speaker 2: Absorb that big time, big time, and then and it's paid,
Speaker 2: it hurts, You're trying to protect yourself and it's just
Speaker 2: a disaster. So I say, yeah, definitely step away. Like
Speaker 2: like you said, you don't have to say anything in
Speaker 2: the moment. You don't have to try and be this
Speaker 2: really confident person if you haven't before, you don't have to.
Speaker 2: You can just remove, simmer down, and then communicate in
Speaker 2: the way that feels best, you know. Great advice.
Speaker 1: The last thing that I really want to focus on
Speaker 1: because I get a lot of questions about this, and
Speaker 1: I know that it's not something that everyone is thinking about,
Speaker 1: But for those that are, when do you think it
Speaker 1: is time to go no contact with a family member?
Speaker 2: I think I mean, by default, you're just always going
Speaker 2: to give your family members like lots of chances, so
Speaker 2: you'll already have a track record in place of how
Speaker 2: many chances you've given this person. Then you know, because
Speaker 2: and people will try to speak nicely, they'll try screaming,
Speaker 2: they'll try you know, hey, if we start doing that,
Speaker 2: you've probably already tried so many different ways you gifts,
Speaker 2: You've tried doing it their way, You've tried doing it
Speaker 2: your way. You've just tried everything normally. When you're ready
Speaker 2: to be like I've got to walk away, you've exhausted
Speaker 2: a lot of options. And I think that when it's
Speaker 2: time to pull the plug on a relationship, you can
Speaker 2: always leave the door open in the sense of these
Speaker 2: have been all my problems with this relationship. And again,
Speaker 2: write it down if you prefer, do it in a letter,
Speaker 2: whatever you again, whatever it takes to get your point across,
Speaker 2: do that. Don't feel the pressure. If it has to
Speaker 2: be in person, it doesn't. I've when I wanted to
Speaker 2: have a talk with my ex when we just broke up,
Speaker 2: and I'm like, can we please make up? I wrote
Speaker 2: notes down and read it out to him, because you
Speaker 2: want to forget anything, But I'm like, I just don't
Speaker 2: want to forget because I'm like, I know that if
Speaker 2: I just sat there, So if it takes that do
Speaker 2: that doesn't matter. But it's going to be something where
Speaker 2: you can say, these have been the issues, this is
Speaker 2: what I've requested for change, and this is what's not happened.
Speaker 2: I've tried doing it this way, I've tried doing it
Speaker 2: that way. It's just not happened. I'm not going to
Speaker 2: try and change you anymore. You can't change someone, you
Speaker 2: can't change their behavior. So then that's when if they
Speaker 2: don't and you don't have to say I'm leaving, I'm
Speaker 2: cutting out of my life. You don't have to say it,
Speaker 2: but you say, but this has not been you know,
Speaker 2: and you're just the balls now in their court. They're
Speaker 2: not going to respond positively obviously because they haven't in
Speaker 2: the past. But at least you've put it there and
Speaker 2: then you that's it. You go no contact. I always say,
Speaker 2: because some people hate the finality of it. They hate
Speaker 2: that it's this final thing. So that's why people struggle
Speaker 2: to pull the plug on the relationship. But I always say,
Speaker 2: if you want a relationship, there's I've given you exactly
Speaker 2: what the formula. There's the formula. If you came back
Speaker 2: and just catered to these basic needs, I would genuinely
Speaker 2: be open to trying again. But as it stands, no,
Speaker 2: I'm done, and you've shown time and time again that
Speaker 2: you can't change. So I'm not so to make people
Speaker 2: feel more open to the idea. You're not saying I'm
Speaker 2: cutting you out forever. It's done good, never again, no
Speaker 2: matter what, because that's so Like I said, people go
Speaker 2: through so many evolutions in their life. You know, I've
Speaker 2: seen people make crazy adjustments. I've seen a mom kick
Speaker 2: her son out because he was gay, and she's like,
Speaker 2: I can't accept it. I can't accept it to within
Speaker 2: two years posting all his drag photos on her Facebook
Speaker 2: being like so proud, Oh my god, how beautiful the
Speaker 2: change that people can make because she kicked him out
Speaker 2: and he went no contact, and she's like, I've literally
Speaker 2: lost my son.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know it's completely my decision, that was my fault.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So not to get your hopes, I'm thinking, oh
Speaker 2: my god, this is what's going to cause the change.
Speaker 2: Absolutely have zero expectations because you've seen the track record,
Speaker 2: but just say, look, I'm done. I'm actually done with
Speaker 2: this relationship as it stands. I'm done forever. If you
Speaker 2: want to create a new one, I'd definitely.
Speaker 1: Been open to that. If you want to create a
Speaker 1: new one, yeah, I actually really it's like you're not
Speaker 1: trying to repair the old relationship's done, it's finished, it's
Speaker 1: finished enough.
Speaker 2: I've reached here the limits. I'm walking away. But yeah,
Speaker 2: like I'm always people innately want to connect. They want,
Speaker 2: you know, so you're likely to if they were to
Speaker 2: come in five years time, two years time and say
Speaker 2: I fucked up, I'm willing. I want to give it
Speaker 2: a shot. I know exactly what it is that you need.
Speaker 2: You've you've explained it to me, and I'm going to try.
Speaker 2: You're going to likely be like, yeah, I want.
Speaker 1: To Yeah you know jeez, I actually loved that was
Speaker 1: quite profound for me listening to that. Thank you, being like, wow,
Speaker 1: that's that's such a good point. Like I do think
Speaker 1: that people I hate to say people are good, but
Speaker 1: I think it's easier for people to make the right
Speaker 1: decisions by you when you show them how you you
Speaker 1: deserve to be treated. Yeah, And I know it feels
Speaker 1: like such a burden sometimes it is really hard to be,
Speaker 1: Like I wish I had family members where I didn't
Speaker 1: have to do this, where I didn't have to give
Speaker 1: them like a guy. It's sad for a lot of
Speaker 1: people in human empathy, that's so difficult, But it's also
Speaker 1: one of those things where you get to decide at
Speaker 1: this moment whether that burden is worth it or whether
Speaker 1: you don't want to take it on, and that is
Speaker 1: like only a decision that you can make, like I
Speaker 1: really think that quite deeply, Like you really have to
Speaker 1: make that decision for yourself, and it is a pros
Speaker 1: and cons list that I'm sure is extensive and complex
Speaker 1: and nuanced, but it does take time. And I think
Speaker 1: that hopefully this episode has like given you the right
Speaker 1: equipment to know how to do that and know how
Speaker 1: to get to that, to that point where you do
Speaker 1: think that drastic measures need to be taken.
Speaker 2: And it's very it is empowering when you do finally
Speaker 2: come to a decision and make that decision, because a
Speaker 2: lot of people that are in these really manipulative relationships
Speaker 2: have issues with their own relationship with themselves, especially you
Speaker 2: were raised in that environment, so it's probably really hard
Speaker 2: to make a call like that. And put yourself first
Speaker 2: when you've been around that environment for so long and
Speaker 2: like I always say, if someone's been grown up in
Speaker 2: this beautiful, happy family, happy, but it's easy to look
Speaker 2: and say, oh, just fuck gives a fuck? Yeah, but
Speaker 2: it's like, no, you've raised in that environment. So for
Speaker 2: you to even make that call or to make the change,
Speaker 2: it takes a lot, and I think it will actually
Speaker 2: be your first step into really building on your relationship
Speaker 2: with yourself. You know, you've got to, like you teach
Speaker 2: people how to treat you.
Speaker 1: Oh, I totally believe that.
Speaker 2: Have to teach people how to treat you. And if
Speaker 2: it means walking away and saying I cannot do this anymore,
Speaker 2: that's a huge statement. But you have to follow through
Speaker 2: with it because then you know, if you you know,
Speaker 2: it's not to say I've cut you out forever like
Speaker 2: we just spoke about, but it is saying I cannot
Speaker 2: do this to myself anymore. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Actually, Christmas such holidays a great time to do it.
Speaker 1: Missing a big family holiday doesn't mean that you've cut
Speaker 1: yourself out of their life, but it does send a
Speaker 1: pretty clear message.
Speaker 2: It's a very clear message.
Speaker 1: Not permanent, but also very powerful. Very I think that
Speaker 1: this is.
Speaker 2: And it's not aggressive.
Speaker 1: It's not aggressive.
Speaker 2: It's just your absence.
Speaker 1: It's your absence, and your absence speaks louder than words.
Speaker 1: Sometimes no response is also a response. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on. I feel like that was such
Speaker 1: an important discussion to be having around this time. Obviously,
Speaker 1: I think I can speak from both of us like
Speaker 1: sending a lot of love and strength and empathy to
Speaker 1: you guys, and sympathy that you're having to grow through
Speaker 1: this experience around this time. I know it can be
Speaker 1: hard seeing really happy families who seem to have no problems.
Speaker 1: Every family has their problems. I will say that from
Speaker 1: the bottom of my heart. And you are doing not
Speaker 1: a lot of job. Yeah, you're definitely not alone. Where
Speaker 1: can they find you? If they do not know who
Speaker 1: you are? Already firstly ridiculous, but where can they find you?
Speaker 2: So the podcast is called do You Fucking Mind? Or
Speaker 2: like it's spelled do U f asterix, asterix and mind,
Speaker 2: And it's like an orange artwork with your kind.
Speaker 1: I'll put it in the description, Alexis, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on. As always, if you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 1: please feel free to leave a five star review wherever
Speaker 1: you are listening right now. If you have an episode suggestion,
Speaker 1: something that we haven't spoken about that you would love
Speaker 1: to hear from us, please follow me at that Psychology
Speaker 1: podcast and you can send us a dm over there.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this episode. As always, we will
Speaker 1: be back next week with another one. Have a great weekend.