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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: There's a long tradition in audio recording to test someone's microphone,

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Speaker 2: you ask them what.

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Speaker 1: They had for breakfast. So I put that question to

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Speaker 1: today's guest, William Hanson.

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Speaker 3: I had two poach tags on some toast.

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Speaker 2: If that sounds a bit elaborate for a random breakfast

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Speaker 2: at home, you haven't heard the half of it.

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Speaker 3: I used a forkin knife. I put a place smat

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Speaker 3: down napkin. We did it relatively formally for a Monday.

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Speaker 2: Place mats napkins. I can't remember the last time I

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Speaker 2: used a cloth napkin for breakfast. I'm not even sure

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Speaker 2: I own any cloth napkins.

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Speaker 3: Does everybody not have a napkin collection? They should. I

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Speaker 3: can strongly applicate for having one, because you know, as

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Speaker 3: anyone knows in etiquette, we have four different types of

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Speaker 3: napkin size. And I think it's nice to have an array.

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Speaker 3: I think a prop an APCIn is so much better

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Speaker 3: than a sort of a tatty paper one, or a

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Speaker 3: piece of kitchen towel or something like that, which is

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Speaker 3: not pleasant and coarse on the lips. And when years ago,

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Speaker 3: when I was living in a flat, we had a

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Speaker 3: fire that was in the laundry cupboard and the napkins

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Speaker 3: were right next door to the fire, and this is

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Speaker 3: not what we advised people to do in the case

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Speaker 3: of the fire. But I decided to save the napkins

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Speaker 3: and was very carefully moving them out whilst the flat

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Speaker 3: burned around me.

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Speaker 2: This season of The Happiness Lab is all about the

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Speaker 2: creative coping strategies real people use to get through their

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Speaker 2: lives as joyfully as possible.

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Speaker 1: And don't worry, this isn't a show about using napkins.

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Speaker 1: William Hansen is a self confessed happy person.

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Speaker 3: I think it's better to be happy if you can.

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Speaker 3: It's very easy for me to say that, of course,

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Speaker 3: but for me, I'm quite happy. I'm sort of consistently

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Speaker 3: chip up.

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Speaker 2: But aside from being a chip or chap, William is

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Speaker 2: a respected expert on etiquette, and he shares the expertise

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Speaker 2: on his podcast Help I Sexit My Boss, and in

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Speaker 2: a great new book called Just Good Manners. I usually

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Speaker 2: associate etiquette with prissy rules about which for it to

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Speaker 2: use first at dinner, rules that make the uninitiated feel

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Speaker 2: stupid and small.

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Speaker 1: But reading William's book showed me how wrong I was.

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Speaker 2: Turns out etiquette has more benefits than I realized, because

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Speaker 2: thinking deeply about how to behave in the company of

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Speaker 2: other people, so that you're polite, considerate, and respectful, that

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Speaker 2: can make you feel great too. William's been thinking about

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Speaker 2: etiquette since childhood, and as you'll hear, it's made his

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Speaker 2: passage through life far smoother and far more enjoyable.

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Speaker 3: This will come as no shock, sheer, Laurie. But I

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Speaker 3: think I was probably quite a precocious child, and my

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Speaker 3: late grandmother gave me a book of etiquette when I

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Speaker 3: was twelve for Christmas, and not because I was feral,

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Speaker 3: but because she thought I might enjoy it. And I did,

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Speaker 3: and it was reluctantly read it because there were more

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Speaker 3: exciting presents to be playing with. But I started to

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Speaker 3: read it, and as well as it being funny, that

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Speaker 3: particular etitquet book, and I think if it had been

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Speaker 3: written sort of deathly seriously, I don't think I'd be

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Speaker 3: sitting here now. But it opened up this sort of framework,

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Speaker 3: most of which you know are certainly the basics. I

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Speaker 3: knew because my parents brought me a very nicely and

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Speaker 3: we sat at the table for breakfast, lunch, and dinner

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Speaker 3: I had to write thank you letters after birthdays in Christmas,

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Speaker 3: and we followed this sort of ritual of politets. But

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Speaker 3: there were other rules your average person probably didn't know,

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Speaker 3: probably doesn't need to know. But I found it helped

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Speaker 3: me sort of give structure and confidence that actually in

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Speaker 3: certain situations, some of which age twelve or thirteen. When

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Speaker 3: I was reading this book, I mean ludicrous. Of course

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to be dining with an archbishop tomorrow,

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Speaker 3: but I was ready should that happen. And of course

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Speaker 3: I get is not just all about dining with archbishops

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Speaker 3: and things like that. But it gave me this foot

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Speaker 3: up in a positive way because I had chosen to learn,

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Speaker 3: and I bought more books because it posed lots of questions,

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Speaker 3: and that's really how my interest started.

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Speaker 1: Do you think it came to you at a time

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Speaker 1: I'm just thinking of like what I was like at thirteen,

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Speaker 1: and you know, you're kind of going through awkward puberty

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Speaker 1: and things are weird. Do you think it kind of

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Speaker 1: helped your social anxiety? Like was it kind of coping

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Speaker 1: to kind of dig into those etiquette skills?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it probably was helping with that and

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Speaker 3: knowing how to behave at twelve thirteen. For anyone, we're

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Speaker 3: all sort of a little bit all over the sharp

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Speaker 3: our hormones and doing all sorts of things as we grow.

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Speaker 3: For me, there was the gay thing as well. I

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Speaker 3: knew at that age I was gay, but sort of

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Speaker 3: hadn't told anyone. It wasn't long after that that I

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Speaker 3: did come out. Now whether actually etiquette sort of helped me.

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Speaker 3: In my head, I probably was like, well, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: matter that I'm agay because I actually know how to behave,

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Speaker 3: and I probably know how to behave better than your

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Speaker 3: average person. So I've always got that as a bit

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Speaker 3: of a shield.

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Speaker 1: And where were you when you decided to come out?

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Speaker 1: If you don't mind shit? Like was it?

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Speaker 3: I was at home in the summer between we would

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Speaker 3: call it year eleven, so I was sixteen in the

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Speaker 3: summer between year eleven year twelve. We were waiting for

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Speaker 3: my GCSE results, which are the exams that you do

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Speaker 3: at that age. And I was not a natural academic.

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Speaker 3: I wasn't at the class dunce. But you know, I

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Speaker 3: was an average student and I was very tense, as indeed,

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Speaker 3: I'm sure everybody is tense waiting for exam results. So

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Speaker 3: there was quite a lot of heightened tension as we

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Speaker 3: got closer, and I just sort of finally snapped and

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Speaker 3: just thought, I just tell my parents. I think we

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Speaker 3: were having an argument, which is unusual because I didn't read.

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Speaker 3: I was very apparently I was quite a placid child.

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Speaker 3: But I think we were having a slight argument and

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Speaker 3: I was losing, and I thought, I need something the

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Speaker 3: grenade to throw in to distract from the fact I'm

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Speaker 3: losing this argument. Oh, I know what I threw in,

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Speaker 3: the gay thing to forget what the argument was about.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things we're sort of thinking about

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Speaker 1: in this episode is this idea that etiquette can be

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Speaker 1: a way to sort of cope when things feel really uncertain.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like the times right now are feeling

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Speaker 1: just incredibly uncertain. I feel like especially in the US

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Speaker 1: right now, but probably all over the world. Do you

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Speaker 1: have this says that etiquette can be used to kind

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Speaker 1: of give structure when things feel out of control.

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Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely, it's parameters. It's just knowing what is expected

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Speaker 3: of us, what is expected of other people. And I

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Speaker 3: think children supposedly like framework, and they are given a

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Speaker 3: framework at school and at homes to what is expected

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Speaker 3: of them. Not everybody is, but generally most children are.

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Speaker 3: I'm not a child psychologist, but I think child psychologists

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Speaker 3: would agree that most children do thrive with frameworks and

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Speaker 3: guidelines and knowing what is expected of them. And I

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Speaker 3: think the same is true with adults as well. It's

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Speaker 3: a different framework, it's a different form of expectations, it's

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Speaker 3: more advanced in many ways. But I think actually sort

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Speaker 3: of having a rock to cling on to in uncertain times,

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: So how do you define etiquette because I think a

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Speaker 1: lot of lay people, people who have not been as

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Speaker 1: well versed in etiquette as you might, kind of misunderstand

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Speaker 1: what it's about.

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, and look, people misunderstand etiquette on a daily basis.

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Speaker 3: Doesn't help that etiquette as a word is an old

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Speaker 3: French word. It sounds terribly posh and it does go

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Speaker 3: back to the Court of lou the fourteenth in France

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Speaker 3: as a word, but it is just about treating people

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Speaker 3: with respect, tolerance, compassion, civility, charm, grace, whatever similar word

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Speaker 3: you want to put in. And anyone who sort of

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Speaker 3: says that we don't need to do that needs to

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Speaker 3: be very politely. Just ushered off the planet, really, because

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Speaker 3: it would be a horrible place if we were treating

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Speaker 3: people without any of.

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Speaker 1: Those I mean, I agree that we want to treat

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Speaker 1: people nicely, but maybe just because I'm an American, I

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Speaker 1: feel like, at least before I read your book, I

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Speaker 1: had this knee jerk reaction against etiquette. It just felt

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Speaker 1: a way that people were being overbearing or kind of

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Speaker 1: holier than now, Like it seems like, Okay, we need

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Speaker 1: to treat people nicely, but do we need to care

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Speaker 1: where the fish fork is and where it goes on

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Speaker 1: the plate and stuff. Tell me about the history of

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Speaker 1: why etiquette kind of peaked in the aristocracy and kind

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Speaker 1: why it started there, and why maybe those of us

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Speaker 1: who are maybe not so aristocratic need to give it

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Speaker 1: a chance.

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Speaker 3: I would say that humans back in the days of

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Speaker 3: cave people were forming a social construction as to how

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Speaker 3: you should behave, who got access to the meat first, etc.

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Speaker 3: So in terms of being codified and written down, it

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Speaker 3: was literally the fourteenth and fifteenth as I mentioned in France,

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Speaker 3: who really structured it more or less like we have

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Speaker 3: today are as closest to However, there it was quite exclusive.

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Speaker 3: It was designed to exclude and if you didn't follow

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Speaker 3: this code, you were demoted down the court life and

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Speaker 3: they would have rules on how many ruffles your sleeves

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Speaker 3: or collars would have depending on your status and what

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Speaker 3: part of the grand levee, which was lewis sort of

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Speaker 3: mourning ritual, which sounds hideous. Baby, all these people watched

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Speaker 3: them get out of bed. I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 3: about you, but I don't want anyone watching and get

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Speaker 3: out of bed. To be fair, it wasn't him actually

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Speaker 3: getting out of bed. He got out of bed ten

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Speaker 3: minutes before and then got into another bed. But still

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Speaker 3: there was this sort of ritual and if you were

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Speaker 3: in that room you had all the highest statuses in

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Speaker 3: the court. So there it was exclusive. But as life

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Speaker 3: has progressed and we sort of finessed it, I would

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Speaker 3: say now good etiquette and manners, when practiced, are inclusive.

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Speaker 3: They are there to bring people together to help us,

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Speaker 3: so we know what to do and what is expected

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Speaker 3: of us. France don't have a monarch anymore, British monarchy.

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Speaker 3: It's a very different monarchy from hundreds of years ago.

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Speaker 3: No royal family anywhere in the world is now making

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Speaker 3: up the rules as to how to behave I would

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Speaker 3: say now, etiquet is quite democratic, and we the people

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Speaker 3: are discovering through trial and error often what we like

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Speaker 3: as a group of people and what we don't like

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Speaker 3: as a group of people, and it will always change.

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Speaker 3: Etiquette will evolve and develop as humans walk the earth

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Speaker 3: and whoever doing your and my jobs. In two hundred

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Speaker 3: years time, we'll be talking about a completely different type

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Speaker 3: of etiquette than what we're talking about today.

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Speaker 2: If it's okay with you, we're going to take a

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Speaker 2: short break, but we'll return in a moment so William

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Speaker 2: can explain how following a few rules can help your

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Speaker 2: next social gathering.

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Speaker 1: Go with this wing, the Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 3: Will be right back.

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Speaker 2: If you listen to recent episodes of the Happiness Lab,

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Speaker 2: you may have heard that sharing meals is a great

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Speaker 2: way to create stronger bonds with the people around you

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Speaker 2: and to feel happier. But a lot of us find

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Speaker 2: organizing a dinner party or entertaining in our homes to

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Speaker 2: be a bit daunting and get expert. William Hansen says

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Speaker 2: a few simple rules can help, and he should know

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Speaker 2: because his homeland, the United Kingdom, has had quite the

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Speaker 2: history when it comes to table manners.

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Speaker 3: We are a tiny, tiny, tiny country in comparison to

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Speaker 3: let's say America or China or France, our nearest country,

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Speaker 3: it is at least double the size, and thus we're

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Speaker 3: much closer to the people that we live with. We're

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Speaker 3: all living on top of each other. Thus we have

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Speaker 3: to get on quite nicely. And you know, we're very

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Speaker 3: fortunate in this country. Our weather is fairly gland. We

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Speaker 3: don't have hurricanes, we don't have tsunamis, we don't have earthquakes,

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Speaker 3: and so we don't have anything else to worry about particularly,

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Speaker 3: and we're very fortunate, again, very fortunate that it's generally

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Speaker 3: a nice country. So yes, we sort of thus have

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Speaker 3: had the time and the headspace to develop this code.

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Speaker 3: And yes, our food was historically, I mean it has

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Speaker 3: dramatically changed in the last forty years, but historically our

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Speaker 3: food was fairly plain, and so you can see why

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Speaker 3: you might want to develop a series of rules to

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Speaker 3: slow down how to eat it because it was wasn't

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Speaker 3: the most delicious, and maybe.

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Speaker 1: Make it more festive, to hence the exciting napkin collection.

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Speaker 3: I guess right, well, exactly, yes, And you know, and

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Speaker 3: again there's a logic, particularly with dining, there is for

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Speaker 3: most things, there is a logic behind them. The knife

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Speaker 3: goes on the right hand side because that was your

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Speaker 3: sword carrying hand. Historically, that's why most people were right handed,

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Speaker 3: and certain religions would say that anything held in the

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Speaker 3: left hand it was the hand of the devil. So

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Speaker 3: thus fawks for many years were considered very suspicious of

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Speaker 3: you using a fork. You used your hand and a knife.

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Speaker 3: And then when various religions realized that actually, if you

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Speaker 3: used a fork, there was actually nothing wrong with you,

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Speaker 3: and actually thought was quite helpful. And so you know,

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Speaker 3: the napkin of whatever size is there to protect your

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Speaker 3: clothing and to take any sort of residue off your lips.

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Speaker 3: So most things have been developed with a logic, and

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Speaker 3: it's normally those that don't understand the logic whose default

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Speaker 3: reaction is, well, it doesn't matter. Well it does, it's

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Speaker 3: just that it hasn't been explained to you correctly, or

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Speaker 3: you've had some negative experience where someone else has used

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Speaker 3: etiquette for bad not for good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, can I talk to you about some of the

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Speaker 1: things I learned in your book that I want to

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Speaker 1: share with my listeners because it was like mind blown,

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Speaker 1: like I had no idea where these things come from.

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Speaker 3: Right, Yes, I love it.

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Speaker 1: So one of my favorites which comes up for me

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Speaker 1: in my own dining as a kid was the no

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Speaker 1: elbows on a table. Well, I just thought this was

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Speaker 1: a completely arbitrary thing that you know, parents and nana's

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Speaker 1: come up with to like yell at the kids at

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Speaker 1: like the Thanksgiving table. But it turns out no elbows

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Speaker 1: on the table very functional.

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Speaker 3: Why yes, So that goes back to the sort of

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Speaker 3: medieval dining in the Middle Ages and the sort of

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Speaker 3: fifteen hundreds where you would have trestle tables with sheets

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Speaker 3: of wood, and they were created for the meals that

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Speaker 3: they had, and they only ate twice a day back then,

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Speaker 3: so they weren't having three meals a day. These tables

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Speaker 3: were cleared away and then basically these multi purpose rooms

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Speaker 3: then became bedrooms and you'd sleep on the floor. And

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Speaker 3: so the food again we ate not like now, it's

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Speaker 3: almost sort of a big buffet style that the food

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Speaker 3: was laid down the center of the table carefully balanced

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Speaker 3: so the table did not tip, so all the heavy

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Speaker 3: stuff was down the very middle of the table. So

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Speaker 3: if you put your elbows on the table and put

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Speaker 3: particular weight, particularly if you were an adult, the table

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Speaker 3: would probably tip. And so it became the etiquette to

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Speaker 3: not put your elbows on the table. And yes, so

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Speaker 3: many people think, oh gosh, I can hear my mother,

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Speaker 3: my father, my grandparents saying that to me. I would

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Speaker 3: also say, it's actually terribly difficult to eat with your

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Speaker 3: elbows on the table. If you're using a knife and fork,

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Speaker 3: the angles don't align. Having your elbows on the table

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Speaker 3: at the end of a meal, perhaps if I've come

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Speaker 3: around to your house, Storry, and we finished eating, we're

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Speaker 3: having a cup of coffee at the end, or a

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Speaker 3: cocktail or whatever, if you've got your elbows on the table.

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Speaker 3: As a host, I would say, as a guest, that's

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Speaker 3: fair enough, I can put my elbows on the table,

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Speaker 3: But actually during a formal meal, no, And I.

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Speaker 1: Have to say, like, even in grad school, I had

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Speaker 1: some tables that might not have been like medieval, but

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Speaker 1: they were cheap things that could.

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Speaker 3: Fall part exact.

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Speaker 1: So I love this one. Another thing that I learned

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Speaker 1: from your book book makes sense at least the right

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Speaker 1: time was seating charts This is another thing I never knew.

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Speaker 1: As a Yelle professor, I sometimes have to go to

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Speaker 1: these formal dinners where everybody has to sit in this

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Speaker 1: specific spot, and I was kind of like, who cares?

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Speaker 1: Then I learned that this too came from important times

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Speaker 1: back in the day, because as you mentioned before, of

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Speaker 1: the swords, so explain why the guest of honor is

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Speaker 1: often sitting in a very specific spot at the right

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Speaker 1: hand side of the table and kind of where that

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Speaker 1: came from.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so it's always the host's immediate right is where

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Speaker 3: you put the guest of honor And actually, if you

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Speaker 3: look at the White House, as you said, have the

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Speaker 3: photographs of those two armchairs that are in front of

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Speaker 3: the fire and the oval office, the President is always

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Speaker 3: on camera right and to his right is always the

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Speaker 3: visiting head of state. However it is, and that was

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Speaker 3: because your sword was on your left hip, and so

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Speaker 3: if someone was sort of going to attack you, you

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Speaker 3: would draw your sword and protect them, so it would

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Speaker 3: be across your guest of honor or whether you were protecting.

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Speaker 3: And that's also why I mean Britain gets a bad

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Speaker 3: rap for driving on the left, whereas everyone other other

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Speaker 3: countries drive on the right. Should just say that all

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Speaker 3: countries drove on the left historically, and it wasn't driving,

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Speaker 3: it was horse and cart. And you did that because

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Speaker 3: again for necessity, because if someone was a highwayman was

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Speaker 3: going to attack you, you would take out the sword. And

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Speaker 3: it was Napoleon and the French who thought they hated us,

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Speaker 3: so we'll just switch sides to annoy them. And lots

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Speaker 3: of other countries shocked, didn't like the British either, so

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Speaker 3: they copied suit as well. Everyone else changed it, not else.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I didn't know it was driving that was

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Speaker 1: about swords, but I love that it was. Formal dinners

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Speaker 1: were about swords, but there was.

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Speaker 3: So much of etique. Is it about sort? It's quite violent?

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Speaker 1: Actually, it actually makes so much sense. Okay. The other

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Speaker 1: fancy dress thing that I loved you explaining, which has

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Speaker 1: to do again with formal seating, is why so many

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Speaker 1: of the formal dinners I go to, including weddings, are

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Speaker 1: sat boy girl boy girl, which felt very gender and

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Speaker 1: very weird. Why do we have to do that?

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Speaker 3: Yes, so sort of at the start of the Georgian

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Speaker 3: period of history in Britain, so George the first it

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Speaker 3: was all men down one side, all women down the

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Speaker 3: other side of the table, and you didn't have the

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Speaker 3: concept of dating we have now and courtship, and so

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Speaker 3: as life began to progress, they thought, well, actually, let's

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Speaker 3: sort of alternate the genders. Obviously it was George in England,

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Speaker 3: and they assumed that there were just two genders, which

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Speaker 3: we can unpick that another time, but just we're going

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Speaker 3: with what they believed. So it was this boy girl,

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Speaker 3: boy girl, which I think is probably preferable to all

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Speaker 3: men down one side, all women down another. And the

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Speaker 3: etiquette was that if you were married, you were actually

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Speaker 3: seated apart from each other, not drastically far apart, just

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Speaker 3: a little bit. So you can talk to other people

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Speaker 3: because you do live with them, so you might want

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Speaker 3: a bit of a change. As much as we love

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Speaker 3: our spouses, if you were engaged. If we look at

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth and mister Darcy in Pride and Bridges, you know

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Speaker 3: they won't going off to the cinema and sitting in

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Speaker 3: an olive god and having a nice get to know

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Speaker 3: you dinner. There was none of that. Really. They just

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Speaker 3: saw each other at balls and might have had tea

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Speaker 3: with the family, and then suddenly they were going to

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Speaker 3: spend the rest of their life together. So hostesses would

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Speaker 3: put these couples next to each other at dinner so

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Speaker 3: at least they could have some sort of private conversation.

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Speaker 3: Say now, you don't need to do such gendered stric seating.

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Speaker 3: I would just say, just balance it, try not to

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Speaker 3: have clusters of any particular genda all in one bit

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Speaker 3: to the detriment of another space on the table. I

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Speaker 3: love my husband's pieces, but I don't actually want to

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Speaker 3: sit next to me to dinner because I want to

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Speaker 3: be able to in the car on the way home

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Speaker 3: go guess what I learned tonight and be able to

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Speaker 3: share on swap stories. But equally, if I was going

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Speaker 3: to a dinner where I knew nobody else other than

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Speaker 3: my husband and the host, actually, then I do want

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Speaker 3: to sit next to my husband. Probably probably not always,

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Speaker 3: So we can take a lot from where we have

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Speaker 3: come from in order to work out what we like

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Speaker 3: from back then what we don't like, and also create

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Speaker 3: our owner to get as well.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask it different? I think you mentioned in

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Speaker 1: the book that another reason for the boy girl boy

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Speaker 1: girl thing with that women's dresses were just enormous and

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Speaker 1: that they couldn't fit.

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Speaker 3: So you know, again sort of Georgian and and Elizabethan,

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Speaker 3: sort of like Victorian era. Your early Victorian era women's

397
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Speaker 3: dresses were so voluminous, often with hoops, and they could

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Speaker 3: actually physically get to the table, so you would have

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Speaker 3: to have somebody not wearing such a luminous outfit I men,

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Speaker 3: to assist you getting in and out of the chair. Yeah,

401
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Speaker 3: the pulling out of the chair was not because the

402
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Speaker 3: women were the weaker sex or anything like that. It

403
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Speaker 3: which is out of absolute necessity because women couldn't physically

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Speaker 3: do it. And then obviously when dresses became a lot

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Speaker 3: more practical, you sort of still did that as a

406
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Speaker 3: bit of a nod to where we had come from. Today,

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Speaker 3: some people like it, some people hate it. I would say,

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Speaker 3: just pull out a chair for anyone you're sitting next to,

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Speaker 3: however they identify. And actually I saw the other day

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Speaker 3: a woman pulled out the chair for her husband and

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Speaker 3: who was a man, and I thought, gosh, that's lovely.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong with it. Again, we're still sort of

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Speaker 3: tipping the hat to where we've come from, So yeah,

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Speaker 3: do it for any fellow human being.

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Speaker 1: And the huge dress thing gets to something we've already

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Speaker 1: talked about, which is the importance of napkins of different sizes.

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Speaker 1: Another thing I didn't realize with the different size napkins

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Speaker 1: also actually had a function too.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so you had the largest dinner size napkins, which

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Speaker 3: were between twenty four and twenty six centimeters. I think

421
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Speaker 3: you work in inches so colleges, but they were the largest,

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Speaker 3: and so they would sort of be completely over the

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Speaker 3: ball gown because you were wearing this huge ball gown

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Speaker 3: and so you would need a larger napkin to cover it.

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Speaker 1: Now, if I look through your book in all the

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Speaker 1: domains where we see these etiquette rules popping up, they

427
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Speaker 1: happen in all parts of life, but they seem to

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Speaker 1: crop up especially at these moments of rights of passage,

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Speaker 1: right weddings, funerals, these big scary state dinners, And that

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Speaker 1: seems like exactly the time psychologically where you might want

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Speaker 1: more of the structure to reduce uncertainty. Is that your

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Speaker 1: sense of kind of how these rituals developed is that

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Speaker 1: they were kind of during these moments of uncertainty.

434
00:19:40,276 --> 00:19:43,196
Speaker 3: Yes, I think so, And I think probably the hatched

435
00:19:43,316 --> 00:19:48,276
Speaker 3: matched and dispatched points of our lives are probably when

436
00:19:48,396 --> 00:19:50,676
Speaker 3: you know, we have large groups of people that come together,

437
00:19:50,756 --> 00:19:53,076
Speaker 3: particularly for the wedding one, and you've got lots of

438
00:19:53,116 --> 00:19:56,156
Speaker 3: different personalities, lots of different family dynamics, and always have

439
00:19:56,356 --> 00:19:58,756
Speaker 3: done as far as sort of matrimony has been the thing,

440
00:19:59,156 --> 00:20:02,716
Speaker 3: And so that's why these rules have popped up in particular,

441
00:20:02,716 --> 00:20:05,236
Speaker 3: and you know, everyone's got an opinion, particularly on weddings.

442
00:20:05,276 --> 00:20:07,356
Speaker 1: I also think you see this just in times where

443
00:20:07,516 --> 00:20:09,836
Speaker 1: they are these subtle things about the psychoology that are

444
00:20:09,836 --> 00:20:12,116
Speaker 1: hard to understand, but if you just stick a rule in,

445
00:20:12,196 --> 00:20:14,516
Speaker 1: you can sort of protect people. One of my favorite

446
00:20:14,636 --> 00:20:18,116
Speaker 1: examples that my colleague Dave Disteno, the psychologist who studies rituals,

447
00:20:18,156 --> 00:20:20,356
Speaker 1: talks a lot about is in moments of death and

448
00:20:20,396 --> 00:20:23,916
Speaker 1: certain rituals that come up during grieving. He talks about

449
00:20:23,916 --> 00:20:27,116
Speaker 1: a case in Shiva and the Jewish tradition where during

450
00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:29,676
Speaker 1: the period of mourning you're supposed to cover up all

451
00:20:29,676 --> 00:20:32,316
Speaker 1: the mirrors in the house, which kind of seem like

452
00:20:32,356 --> 00:20:35,756
Speaker 1: a very strange etiquette rule or ritual, but it turns

453
00:20:35,796 --> 00:20:38,956
Speaker 1: out that seeing yourself being sad or seeing yourself being

454
00:20:38,956 --> 00:20:42,276
Speaker 1: anxious in a mirror amplifies that sense of being sad

455
00:20:42,356 --> 00:20:44,756
Speaker 1: or being anxious, And so the Shiva tradition of covering

456
00:20:44,796 --> 00:20:47,356
Speaker 1: up the mirrors makes all the grievers not kind of

457
00:20:47,356 --> 00:20:49,596
Speaker 1: compound their grief just by seeing how messed up you

458
00:20:49,636 --> 00:20:51,516
Speaker 1: look and how sad you look all the time. Any

459
00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:53,756
Speaker 1: other examples kind of like this that come up in

460
00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:57,236
Speaker 1: more traditional etiquette moments where it seems like it's about

461
00:20:57,316 --> 00:21:00,076
Speaker 1: kind of protecting people psychologically in ways that we might

462
00:21:00,116 --> 00:21:00,596
Speaker 1: not expect.

463
00:21:00,716 --> 00:21:03,876
Speaker 3: Yes, and that fundamentally I mean and also said, a

464
00:21:03,916 --> 00:21:07,596
Speaker 3: lot of our more traditional has come from religion, whichever

465
00:21:07,676 --> 00:21:10,596
Speaker 3: religion that is, and I would say most religions do

466
00:21:10,676 --> 00:21:13,836
Speaker 3: share the same core principles. But yes, it is just

467
00:21:14,036 --> 00:21:18,756
Speaker 3: a consideration for other people before ourselves. And the idea

468
00:21:18,796 --> 00:21:21,756
Speaker 3: is that I'm pushing you first and you're pushing me first,

469
00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:25,396
Speaker 3: and it's this nice homogeneous unit that is the idea.

470
00:21:25,556 --> 00:21:29,156
Speaker 3: And actually the Shiver thing reminds me of For many years,

471
00:21:29,156 --> 00:21:33,556
Speaker 3: I was really reticent to post videos of myself on

472
00:21:33,676 --> 00:21:37,116
Speaker 3: social media doing etiquette tips, which is something that's very

473
00:21:37,116 --> 00:21:40,756
Speaker 3: commonplace now for lots of people in whatever industry. But

474
00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:43,196
Speaker 3: I was really reluctant because I don't think it is

475
00:21:43,276 --> 00:21:46,956
Speaker 3: healthy to constantly look at yourself, whether you've got an

476
00:21:47,036 --> 00:21:49,956
Speaker 3: ego or you're insecure or not. I think it can

477
00:21:49,996 --> 00:21:53,356
Speaker 3: be quite harmful, and so I take away mirrors generally

478
00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:55,356
Speaker 3: to be honest, whether we're grieving or not.

479
00:21:55,556 --> 00:21:58,236
Speaker 1: So sometimes etiquette comes up in these big, scary times,

480
00:21:58,316 --> 00:22:03,476
Speaker 1: the what did you say, hatched catched hatch, Yes, so

481
00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,836
Speaker 1: ednikie comes up in these hatched, matched and dispatched times.

482
00:22:07,236 --> 00:22:08,556
Speaker 1: But there are lots of times that are a little

483
00:22:08,556 --> 00:22:11,276
Speaker 1: bit anxiety provoking what we're engaging in social connection, And

484
00:22:11,316 --> 00:22:15,556
Speaker 1: a big one is the dinner. Talk about some strategies

485
00:22:15,556 --> 00:22:18,836
Speaker 1: that can reduce uncertainty during moments of dinner. I'm thinking

486
00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:20,876
Speaker 1: about well set tables, that kind of thing.

487
00:22:20,916 --> 00:22:24,036
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean, I think when you arrive to eat,

488
00:22:24,196 --> 00:22:27,036
Speaker 3: whether it's in a restaurant, your friend's house, anywhere, how

489
00:22:27,116 --> 00:22:28,876
Speaker 3: the ground it is. If you know, if the table

490
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:31,436
Speaker 3: and the room look inviting and it's sort of there's

491
00:22:31,436 --> 00:22:34,916
Speaker 3: been a little bit of consideration into the table setting,

492
00:22:35,316 --> 00:22:37,916
Speaker 3: you're probably a little bit more relaxed than if actually

493
00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:40,716
Speaker 3: all the cutlery is in a pot in the middle

494
00:22:40,716 --> 00:22:42,916
Speaker 3: of the table, some of it's a bit grubby, there's

495
00:22:42,916 --> 00:22:46,076
Speaker 3: a few scraps of something unattractive kitchen towel on the table,

496
00:22:46,196 --> 00:22:48,076
Speaker 3: You think, God, do they even want me here? Have

497
00:22:48,156 --> 00:22:50,996
Speaker 3: they really prepared? Am I being a burden on them?

498
00:22:51,156 --> 00:22:54,396
Speaker 3: And I think hospitality is, whether you're doing it professionally

499
00:22:54,516 --> 00:22:57,876
Speaker 3: or you're doing it sort of socially, is about making

500
00:22:57,916 --> 00:23:01,516
Speaker 3: others feel welcome and relaxed, and thus putting in a

501
00:23:01,556 --> 00:23:03,796
Speaker 3: bit of effort. If you're going to have friends over

502
00:23:04,076 --> 00:23:05,676
Speaker 3: is key. If you don't want to have friends over,

503
00:23:05,756 --> 00:23:07,756
Speaker 3: that's fine. Don't have friends over, go out to a

504
00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:10,716
Speaker 3: restaurant or do it another And then yes, if you're

505
00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:12,716
Speaker 3: eating food and you don't know what to do with

506
00:23:12,796 --> 00:23:15,516
Speaker 3: it and you're presented with something new, don't be afraid

507
00:23:15,556 --> 00:23:18,556
Speaker 3: to ask ask your host, gosh, this sort of delicious?

508
00:23:18,596 --> 00:23:21,396
Speaker 3: How best do you suggest I eat it? Or just

509
00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:24,276
Speaker 3: sort of slightly hang back and just see what everyone

510
00:23:24,276 --> 00:23:27,316
Speaker 3: else is doing. May not be correct, but if they're

511
00:23:27,356 --> 00:23:28,956
Speaker 3: doing it, they going to think it's correct. Yeah.

512
00:23:29,196 --> 00:23:31,676
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in the hangback. As someone who

513
00:23:31,676 --> 00:23:33,836
Speaker 1: hasn't studied a lot of etiquette in this American but

514
00:23:33,876 --> 00:23:36,116
Speaker 1: finds myself in lots of these formal moments, I'm a

515
00:23:36,116 --> 00:23:39,156
Speaker 1: big hangbacker and watch what everybody else does, especially for

516
00:23:39,196 --> 00:23:41,836
Speaker 1: the like positioning of the thing. Somehow the bread like

517
00:23:42,036 --> 00:23:44,156
Speaker 1: little dish. I always I never know what's going on.

518
00:23:44,356 --> 00:23:47,356
Speaker 3: Okay, Well with your breadplate, yes, exactly what you need

519
00:23:47,396 --> 00:23:49,716
Speaker 3: to remember is you need to remember BMW motor cars.

520
00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:52,316
Speaker 3: So as you look at your place setting B for bread,

521
00:23:52,356 --> 00:23:54,796
Speaker 3: it's on the left, M for meal it's in the middle,

522
00:23:55,076 --> 00:23:56,996
Speaker 3: and W for wine it's on the right. So as

523
00:23:57,036 --> 00:23:58,996
Speaker 3: you sort of sit down, you know that your breadplate

524
00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:01,116
Speaker 3: is on the left. If you start taking bread from

525
00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:03,796
Speaker 3: the right hand side, that someone else's breadplate that's stealing.

526
00:24:03,916 --> 00:24:05,956
Speaker 3: That's very bad matters. So your breadplated.

527
00:24:05,956 --> 00:24:09,236
Speaker 1: As happened recently, it was giving a talk and we're

528
00:24:09,236 --> 00:24:10,796
Speaker 1: at a restaurant and they, you know, have the bread

529
00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:13,396
Speaker 1: plates set up, and I was like, which side should

530
00:24:13,396 --> 00:24:14,716
Speaker 1: I be taking it from? Which side should I be

531
00:24:14,756 --> 00:24:16,956
Speaker 1: taking it from? And I realized they just set the

532
00:24:16,996 --> 00:24:19,516
Speaker 1: wrong number of bread plates, so there's one in too few,

533
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:21,556
Speaker 1: and so I was like, I did the math, and

534
00:24:21,596 --> 00:24:23,236
Speaker 1: I was like, wait a minute, okay, this is not me.

535
00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:26,356
Speaker 3: This is yes, this is something that I have more

536
00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:28,756
Speaker 3: and more frequently as I write about these rules, whether

537
00:24:28,836 --> 00:24:31,116
Speaker 3: it's in just cod manners or doing a video on

538
00:24:31,156 --> 00:24:34,556
Speaker 3: Instagram or whatever teaching, and it's all very while we going, well,

539
00:24:34,596 --> 00:24:36,676
Speaker 3: this is this is how glasses are arranged, or this

540
00:24:36,756 --> 00:24:39,436
Speaker 3: is how cutler is arranged. But if the restaurant or

541
00:24:39,476 --> 00:24:43,196
Speaker 3: your friends has not done it properly, you might actually

542
00:24:43,236 --> 00:24:45,956
Speaker 3: what I have told you to do might be complete rubbish.

543
00:24:46,276 --> 00:24:48,716
Speaker 1: Like bmw B You're like, wait, MWB, I don't know

544
00:24:48,796 --> 00:24:50,236
Speaker 1: what's going on. It's not very confusing.

545
00:24:50,276 --> 00:24:53,356
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, Yes, So I would always you know, And

546
00:24:53,396 --> 00:24:54,876
Speaker 3: I think that's why it's good to sort of know

547
00:24:55,436 --> 00:24:57,836
Speaker 3: what the etiquette should be, and then you can either

548
00:24:57,916 --> 00:24:59,796
Speaker 3: choose to apply it or you go, do you know

549
00:24:59,836 --> 00:25:03,476
Speaker 3: what wrong setting here? Tear it up and do something else.

550
00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:05,076
Speaker 1: I love this idea of just kind of, you know,

551
00:25:05,156 --> 00:25:07,516
Speaker 1: making the table so beautiful and having all the napkins

552
00:25:07,516 --> 00:25:08,676
Speaker 1: and so on. But one of the things we've talked

553
00:25:08,676 --> 00:25:10,556
Speaker 1: about in this sh show is this idea of sort

554
00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:14,156
Speaker 1: of scruffy hospitality, that social connection is so important and

555
00:25:14,196 --> 00:25:16,716
Speaker 1: the loneliness is so prevalent that you shouldn't let kind

556
00:25:16,716 --> 00:25:19,916
Speaker 1: of worries about cleanliness and worries about having the perfect

557
00:25:19,956 --> 00:25:23,236
Speaker 1: table setting come up any advice there of how you

558
00:25:23,276 --> 00:25:25,996
Speaker 1: can kind of be minimum about the etiquette stuff and

559
00:25:26,076 --> 00:25:28,476
Speaker 1: like the table settings and the fanciness, but still kind

560
00:25:28,476 --> 00:25:30,156
Speaker 1: of get the social connection in and still get the

561
00:25:30,156 --> 00:25:30,956
Speaker 1: hospitality into.

562
00:25:31,036 --> 00:25:33,196
Speaker 3: Well. One of the things that I see a lot of,

563
00:25:33,236 --> 00:25:36,636
Speaker 3: particularly if people haven't hosted an awful lot, and good

564
00:25:36,636 --> 00:25:39,236
Speaker 3: on them for trying. And we've all had our first

565
00:25:39,316 --> 00:25:42,236
Speaker 3: dinner party and for most of us it probably went horrifically.

566
00:25:42,476 --> 00:25:44,716
Speaker 3: But like anything, the more you do it, the better

567
00:25:44,756 --> 00:25:46,836
Speaker 3: you get. But don't run before you can walk. If

568
00:25:46,876 --> 00:25:50,676
Speaker 3: you're dining table seats for it a push, don't invite five.

569
00:25:50,876 --> 00:25:53,676
Speaker 3: I mean, it is extraordinary how many it's happening less

570
00:25:53,676 --> 00:25:56,116
Speaker 3: now as I'm getting older, but how many friends dinner

571
00:25:56,156 --> 00:25:58,556
Speaker 3: parties we've gone to and they've tried to cram it

572
00:25:58,556 --> 00:26:01,636
Speaker 3: in because we want five. Well, we're not comfortable wherever

573
00:26:01,676 --> 00:26:05,076
Speaker 3: we are eating. We want to be comfortable eating, particularly

574
00:26:05,116 --> 00:26:06,836
Speaker 3: as we get older. We want chairs that sort of

575
00:26:06,916 --> 00:26:10,116
Speaker 3: support us and we want to not think, thank God,

576
00:26:10,156 --> 00:26:13,956
Speaker 3: I can go home so comfortable environment. The food does

577
00:26:13,996 --> 00:26:16,916
Speaker 3: not have to be cooked yourself. You can buy it in,

578
00:26:17,316 --> 00:26:19,876
Speaker 3: you can have cooked and the food can be just passible.

579
00:26:19,956 --> 00:26:23,036
Speaker 3: It doesn't need to be delicious, So food that's nice

580
00:26:23,076 --> 00:26:25,516
Speaker 3: but doesn't need to be phenomenal, and you can have

581
00:26:25,556 --> 00:26:30,276
Speaker 3: bought it in a clean table, clean cutlery, clean glassware,

582
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:32,916
Speaker 3: not glassware where I can see your thumb prints and

583
00:26:32,956 --> 00:26:35,236
Speaker 3: your fingerprints as you've placed it down on the table.

584
00:26:35,276 --> 00:26:39,076
Speaker 3: That's not very appetizing or hygienic. A nice napkin if

585
00:26:39,116 --> 00:26:41,236
Speaker 3: you're going to do paper, because you can't be bothered

586
00:26:41,236 --> 00:26:43,876
Speaker 3: to wash napkins. There are some really good sort of

587
00:26:43,956 --> 00:26:47,916
Speaker 3: three or four ply thicker proper paper napkins you can get.

588
00:26:47,956 --> 00:26:51,516
Speaker 3: Most supermarkets or stores that sell napkins will have them,

589
00:26:51,596 --> 00:26:53,596
Speaker 3: so you can just still throw them out and they

590
00:26:53,636 --> 00:26:56,076
Speaker 3: can be recycled. And if you're going to have music

591
00:26:56,116 --> 00:26:58,436
Speaker 3: on in the background, a lot of people get triggered

592
00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:01,716
Speaker 3: by really loud music, and actually the best soundtrack to

593
00:27:01,796 --> 00:27:04,476
Speaker 3: any sort of party is just people chatting and laughing.

594
00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:07,876
Speaker 3: And actually, so don't spend two days curating the perfect

595
00:27:07,876 --> 00:27:10,836
Speaker 3: dinner party playlist, because we really shouldn't be listening to it.

596
00:27:11,076 --> 00:27:12,596
Speaker 3: We might hear it at the start when there are

597
00:27:12,596 --> 00:27:15,436
Speaker 3: a few of us there, but as the party gets

598
00:27:15,436 --> 00:27:17,956
Speaker 3: into the swing of it, we shouldn't be hearing the

599
00:27:18,036 --> 00:27:20,436
Speaker 3: music so have it there in the background, but really

600
00:27:20,476 --> 00:27:20,996
Speaker 3: on very.

601
00:27:20,876 --> 00:27:23,876
Speaker 2: Low Social gatherings when they go smoothly, can be a

602
00:27:23,876 --> 00:27:26,556
Speaker 2: great source of happiness, and observing a set of agreed

603
00:27:26,636 --> 00:27:29,076
Speaker 2: upon rules without being a jerk about it can help

604
00:27:29,116 --> 00:27:29,916
Speaker 2: ensure that these.

605
00:27:29,756 --> 00:27:30,836
Speaker 1: Interactions go well.

606
00:27:30,996 --> 00:27:33,956
Speaker 2: But that's not the only benefit of taking etiquette more seriously,

607
00:27:34,276 --> 00:27:42,956
Speaker 2: which we'll hear more about after the break. William Hansen's

608
00:27:42,956 --> 00:27:45,636
Speaker 2: new book Just Good Manners taught me that etiquette has

609
00:27:45,676 --> 00:27:48,676
Speaker 2: a lot of unexpected benefits, and one of my favorite

610
00:27:48,676 --> 00:27:52,036
Speaker 2: benefits is that etiquette often acts like a break, which

611
00:27:52,076 --> 00:27:54,156
Speaker 2: can be a good thing when it comes to our happiness.

612
00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:57,476
Speaker 2: Our lives often pass at lightning speed, but if you

613
00:27:57,596 --> 00:28:01,396
Speaker 2: organize a dinner party following William's tips, considering the seeding plan,

614
00:28:01,636 --> 00:28:03,876
Speaker 2: or giving thought to the napkins, you have the time

615
00:28:03,916 --> 00:28:07,316
Speaker 2: needed to anticipate just how fun it'll be. Research shows

616
00:28:07,316 --> 00:28:09,996
Speaker 2: that humans get a happiness boost from this sort of anticipation.

617
00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:12,796
Speaker 2: We also enjoy events way more when we have a

618
00:28:12,876 --> 00:28:15,596
Speaker 2: chance to savor them rather than rushing through everything all

619
00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:18,156
Speaker 2: the time. So does William agree that etiquette can help

620
00:28:18,236 --> 00:28:20,436
Speaker 2: us find room for pause in our hectic lives.

621
00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:24,516
Speaker 3: Yes, and I think it's about just slowing down life.

622
00:28:24,556 --> 00:28:28,956
Speaker 3: And I think, as life is so fast paced now

623
00:28:29,076 --> 00:28:31,556
Speaker 3: compared to how it was in sort of etiquette's heyday,

624
00:28:31,956 --> 00:28:33,956
Speaker 3: I think it's good just to sort of just pause

625
00:28:34,076 --> 00:28:37,156
Speaker 3: and take time. And you know, let's look at communications

626
00:28:37,236 --> 00:28:40,756
Speaker 3: or written communication. We can communicate instantly with people and

627
00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:43,876
Speaker 3: get a response, and that's fantastic and gosh, so many ways.

628
00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:45,956
Speaker 3: But if we had to do it like they did

629
00:28:45,956 --> 00:28:49,356
Speaker 3: in Jane Austen time, where you write a letter and

630
00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:51,276
Speaker 3: then you would wait for it to be collected, which

631
00:28:51,356 --> 00:28:53,036
Speaker 3: might have been the day or the day after that,

632
00:28:53,396 --> 00:28:55,116
Speaker 3: and then it would go of our horse and can't

633
00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:58,516
Speaker 3: to even somewhere within your city, but it could be

634
00:28:58,596 --> 00:29:00,916
Speaker 3: two cities away, and then you know, you might not

635
00:29:00,996 --> 00:29:03,276
Speaker 3: get a response for a month. So you had time.

636
00:29:03,356 --> 00:29:05,436
Speaker 3: They had the luxury. It wasn't considered at the time,

637
00:29:05,436 --> 00:29:08,276
Speaker 3: but they had the luxury of time of considering how

638
00:29:08,316 --> 00:29:11,276
Speaker 3: are we going to respond, what's the best thing to do.

639
00:29:11,756 --> 00:29:14,316
Speaker 3: I need to be concise as well, because I've got

640
00:29:14,356 --> 00:29:16,916
Speaker 3: paper as expensive as well, and we're not going to

641
00:29:16,916 --> 00:29:19,476
Speaker 3: try and keep it as short as possible, whereas now

642
00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:22,116
Speaker 3: we are expected to sort of have the answers immediately

643
00:29:22,236 --> 00:29:25,076
Speaker 3: upon sending a message, and we have to speak and

644
00:29:25,236 --> 00:29:28,196
Speaker 3: hope or write and hope that what we say is

645
00:29:28,236 --> 00:29:33,236
Speaker 3: in some ways comprehensible, not offensive, clear, and it's not

646
00:29:33,276 --> 00:29:34,196
Speaker 3: always going to be possible.

647
00:29:34,196 --> 00:29:35,876
Speaker 1: It also seems like this act of kind of being

648
00:29:35,876 --> 00:29:38,996
Speaker 1: more present can come from the things that I sometimes

649
00:29:39,036 --> 00:29:42,156
Speaker 1: again as my you know, etiquette first American background brought

650
00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:44,796
Speaker 1: me up to be things like dress codes, right, whereas

651
00:29:44,836 --> 00:29:47,036
Speaker 1: I often think of the dress code as something that's

652
00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:50,196
Speaker 1: like overbearing, that's like constraining by freedom and so on.

653
00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:52,516
Speaker 1: But you've argued that it's a way again of kind

654
00:29:52,556 --> 00:29:54,316
Speaker 1: of being a little bit more present, maybe even of

655
00:29:54,356 --> 00:29:56,916
Speaker 1: honoring the people that are kind of throwing whatever event

656
00:29:56,996 --> 00:29:58,756
Speaker 1: this is. Can explain what you mean.

657
00:29:59,036 --> 00:30:02,036
Speaker 3: Again, if you have been invited to a party, someone

658
00:30:02,756 --> 00:30:07,716
Speaker 3: has spent money presumably or time and effort on looking

659
00:30:07,756 --> 00:30:10,716
Speaker 3: after you and taking interest in you and wanting you

660
00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:13,676
Speaker 3: to have a nice time, and so by doing things

661
00:30:13,716 --> 00:30:18,436
Speaker 3: correctly and honoring it and following what is expected of you,

662
00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,356
Speaker 3: you are honoring them and the friendship rather than this

663
00:30:21,396 --> 00:30:23,036
Speaker 3: sort of well, actually I don't want to do that.

664
00:30:23,236 --> 00:30:25,356
Speaker 3: I'm just going to ignore that and thinking somehow that

665
00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:26,956
Speaker 3: someone is above the rules.

666
00:30:27,236 --> 00:30:29,036
Speaker 1: So it seems like one of the ways that etiquette

667
00:30:29,076 --> 00:30:31,196
Speaker 1: can really help us is doing this sort of honoring,

668
00:30:31,316 --> 00:30:33,796
Speaker 1: is this kind of other oriented take on how you

669
00:30:33,796 --> 00:30:35,476
Speaker 1: should behave in these kinds of settings.

670
00:30:35,516 --> 00:30:38,516
Speaker 3: And I would say also treating people with respect is

671
00:30:38,556 --> 00:30:42,476
Speaker 3: a constant. How we treat people with respect might have

672
00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:45,676
Speaker 3: changed over time from the time of George the Third

673
00:30:45,796 --> 00:30:48,116
Speaker 3: to now, and it will always change. Etiquette as a

674
00:30:48,116 --> 00:30:50,756
Speaker 3: shape shifter. And it would be ridiculous for me to

675
00:30:50,796 --> 00:30:52,836
Speaker 3: say what's published in Just Good Manners in one hundred

676
00:30:52,876 --> 00:30:55,516
Speaker 3: years time, every single sentence I write is going to

677
00:30:55,556 --> 00:30:58,396
Speaker 3: be exactly the same. I think the core principles hopefully

678
00:30:58,396 --> 00:31:01,956
Speaker 3: will be the same, but it will change. Yes, I

679
00:31:01,996 --> 00:31:05,596
Speaker 3: think just I think it is important, particularly when the

680
00:31:05,636 --> 00:31:10,476
Speaker 3: world around us, our social, political, diplom life might be

681
00:31:10,516 --> 00:31:13,956
Speaker 3: incredibly uncertain. It is the easy thing to do would

682
00:31:13,996 --> 00:31:16,316
Speaker 3: be to sync to that level. Life is not easy.

683
00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:18,596
Speaker 3: We know that, and actually what we need to do

684
00:31:18,676 --> 00:31:22,396
Speaker 3: is raise people to a slightly higher standard, particularly those

685
00:31:22,636 --> 00:31:25,756
Speaker 3: in higher office. And I can see why some people

686
00:31:25,876 --> 00:31:29,196
Speaker 3: whichever country, in so many countries have you know, it's

687
00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:32,676
Speaker 3: not peachy for everybody, But I can see why a

688
00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:34,796
Speaker 3: lot of people think well, why should I be nice?

689
00:31:34,916 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 3: You can be a bit of a brute, or you

690
00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:38,196
Speaker 3: can be a bit of a bully or say the

691
00:31:38,196 --> 00:31:39,956
Speaker 3: wrong thing, and you can get to the highest office

692
00:31:39,996 --> 00:31:44,036
Speaker 3: in the hand. It applies to many, many heads of stake, and.

693
00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:45,476
Speaker 1: What we know from the science is that this is

694
00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:48,236
Speaker 1: very effective in terms of boosting people's happiness. I think

695
00:31:48,236 --> 00:31:50,716
Speaker 1: we assume, with so much in the world right now

696
00:31:50,716 --> 00:31:53,076
Speaker 1: talking about self care and treating yourself, that kind of

697
00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:55,196
Speaker 1: being as selfish as possible when it comes to food

698
00:31:55,276 --> 00:31:57,556
Speaker 1: or whatever, it would make us feel good. But study

699
00:31:57,556 --> 00:31:59,676
Speaker 1: after study shows that doing nice things for others, whether

700
00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:01,996
Speaker 1: it's spending money on other people, doing kind of like

701
00:32:02,076 --> 00:32:04,476
Speaker 1: charity acts for other individuals, that makes us feel better

702
00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:07,596
Speaker 1: than doing for ourselves. So another thing that you talk

703
00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:09,556
Speaker 1: a lot about in terms of being a good guest

704
00:32:09,716 --> 00:32:12,196
Speaker 1: that really resonates with the science is the importance of

705
00:32:12,316 --> 00:32:15,676
Speaker 1: expressing gratitude. And you are a big fan I know

706
00:32:15,796 --> 00:32:18,956
Speaker 1: of the thank you letter? Why or thank you letters

707
00:32:18,956 --> 00:32:19,996
Speaker 1: so important? So powerful?

708
00:32:20,196 --> 00:32:22,716
Speaker 3: I think they're more powerful now in an era where

709
00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:27,676
Speaker 3: so little is handwritten by hand most things aren't emails.

710
00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:30,116
Speaker 3: I think actually to have something, I think it shows

711
00:32:30,156 --> 00:32:32,516
Speaker 3: more effort I mean, that's id rather someone emailed me

712
00:32:32,716 --> 00:32:37,836
Speaker 3: a thank you than literally avoid of silence, but for

713
00:32:37,876 --> 00:32:41,116
Speaker 3: someone to actually put pen to paper and to pay

714
00:32:41,116 --> 00:32:43,636
Speaker 3: for a stamp, which I'm sure in your country but's

715
00:32:43,676 --> 00:32:47,756
Speaker 3: definitely ours. Stamps cost rise and rise and rise almost

716
00:32:47,756 --> 00:32:50,476
Speaker 3: every every six months. But actually to sort of have

717
00:32:50,636 --> 00:32:52,716
Speaker 3: taken a moment to put in a little bit of

718
00:32:52,956 --> 00:32:57,596
Speaker 3: effort to say thank you, especially if the effort has

719
00:32:57,636 --> 00:33:02,636
Speaker 3: been quite considerable on my part. Just as to scriggle

720
00:33:02,676 --> 00:33:06,196
Speaker 3: a few lines, I think is so nice and I

721
00:33:06,196 --> 00:33:09,516
Speaker 3: think it carries more clout and base if it gets

722
00:33:09,516 --> 00:33:12,836
Speaker 3: you brownie points more than if you just said send

723
00:33:12,836 --> 00:33:14,756
Speaker 3: a quick sort of DM to go, yeah, thanks so

724
00:33:14,836 --> 00:33:17,516
Speaker 3: much for dinner, see you soon, kiss, which you've probably

725
00:33:17,516 --> 00:33:20,276
Speaker 3: written lying in bed, picking your nose, thinking about what

726
00:33:20,316 --> 00:33:22,236
Speaker 3: you're going to have for breakfast in the morning. It's

727
00:33:22,316 --> 00:33:23,316
Speaker 3: not quite the same.

728
00:33:23,436 --> 00:33:25,876
Speaker 1: You've seen the benefit of these brownie points kind of,

729
00:33:25,916 --> 00:33:28,476
Speaker 1: I guess secondhand with your friend Daphne. Tell me the

730
00:33:28,516 --> 00:33:30,436
Speaker 1: story of Daphne and why her thank you notes were

731
00:33:30,476 --> 00:33:31,116
Speaker 1: so powerful.

732
00:33:31,396 --> 00:33:35,796
Speaker 3: Daphne is a gorgeous, gorgeous person. She's now in her nineties,

733
00:33:36,516 --> 00:33:39,356
Speaker 3: and when I first stayed with Japhanne in her early agies.

734
00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:41,636
Speaker 3: I was not living in London at the time, but

735
00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:43,956
Speaker 3: I was working in London a lot, and so if

736
00:33:43,996 --> 00:33:46,716
Speaker 3: i'd have an early start, I would stay with Daphne.

737
00:33:46,836 --> 00:33:49,796
Speaker 3: And Daphne told me the following story, and I should

738
00:33:49,796 --> 00:33:55,436
Speaker 3: say Daphne's house beautiful, Mary Poppins esque, Chelsea townhouse gorgeous.

739
00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:59,356
Speaker 3: And Daphne and her twin sister grew up outside of London,

740
00:33:59,396 --> 00:34:02,116
Speaker 3: in the north of England, and every Christmas was sent

741
00:34:02,396 --> 00:34:04,596
Speaker 3: a one pound note. No, we don't have one pound

742
00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:07,036
Speaker 3: notes anymore, but back then, ninety five years ago, a

743
00:34:07,116 --> 00:34:09,516
Speaker 3: one pound note was a lot of money, particularly for

744
00:34:09,556 --> 00:34:11,796
Speaker 3: two girls to be getting. They would each get it

745
00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:13,196
Speaker 3: and they would sort of once they got to four

746
00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:15,556
Speaker 3: or five, they would start squiggling a little thank you

747
00:34:16,116 --> 00:34:18,596
Speaker 3: letter to say thank you to this great aunt who

748
00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:21,196
Speaker 3: was sending them the money. And sort of, as they

749
00:34:21,196 --> 00:34:23,556
Speaker 3: got older, they'd begun to understand that this great aunt

750
00:34:23,596 --> 00:34:25,516
Speaker 3: was persona and on grata with the family. There was

751
00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:28,556
Speaker 3: some family feud. You just did not talk about this

752
00:34:28,676 --> 00:34:32,156
Speaker 3: great aunt. And as Daphne and her sister were now

753
00:34:32,316 --> 00:34:35,356
Speaker 3: in their twenties, they were living in London, they thought, well, look,

754
00:34:35,356 --> 00:34:37,596
Speaker 3: we'll put in our thank you letters that we don't

755
00:34:37,636 --> 00:34:39,876
Speaker 3: care what this argument was, We don't know. Can we

756
00:34:39,916 --> 00:34:42,356
Speaker 3: take you up for lunch please to say thank you properly.

757
00:34:42,676 --> 00:34:44,716
Speaker 3: Never did they get a response, and then one year

758
00:34:44,916 --> 00:34:48,036
Speaker 3: Daphne's sister said, look, I'm going to stop writing because

759
00:34:48,236 --> 00:34:50,436
Speaker 3: I sort of it's embarrassing. It's not worth as much

760
00:34:50,436 --> 00:34:53,076
Speaker 3: as it was. We're earning money. She never had no

761
00:34:53,156 --> 00:34:54,796
Speaker 3: other contact with her. I sort of want her to

762
00:34:54,956 --> 00:34:57,516
Speaker 3: save her money and give it to someone else. So

763
00:34:57,556 --> 00:35:00,996
Speaker 3: she stopped writing. Daphne continued and still for about five

764
00:35:01,076 --> 00:35:03,156
Speaker 3: or six more years, they were both sent their one

765
00:35:03,196 --> 00:35:07,716
Speaker 3: pound note, and shortly after one Christmas they received nothing.

766
00:35:07,916 --> 00:35:10,756
Speaker 3: And then after Christmas, Definitely received a phone call to Sam,

767
00:35:10,836 --> 00:35:12,796
Speaker 3: so sorry to tell you that your great aunt has

768
00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:16,276
Speaker 3: died and in her will she has left you her

769
00:35:16,356 --> 00:35:20,756
Speaker 3: Chelsea townhouse. It's because you always wrote a thank you letter.

770
00:35:20,956 --> 00:35:26,396
Speaker 3: The sister was not left anything. Yeah, exactly, And so

771
00:35:26,676 --> 00:35:29,276
Speaker 3: I always write to Definitely when I stay with her,

772
00:35:29,276 --> 00:35:30,036
Speaker 3: because you never know.

773
00:35:31,316 --> 00:35:33,316
Speaker 1: That's awesome. I mean, I think you know, that's a

774
00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:36,556
Speaker 1: case of getting brownie points, you know, like literal brownie

775
00:35:36,556 --> 00:35:38,116
Speaker 1: points from the person you send a thank you letter

776
00:35:38,156 --> 00:35:41,236
Speaker 1: to But psychologically, there's lots of evidence that we get

777
00:35:41,316 --> 00:35:43,836
Speaker 1: these kind of happiness boosting Brownie points just because the

778
00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:45,996
Speaker 1: act of writing a thank you letter to someone else,

779
00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:48,876
Speaker 1: especially in researchers looked at this, a byhand thank you

780
00:35:48,956 --> 00:35:52,036
Speaker 1: letter that you put some detail into it wounds up

781
00:35:52,196 --> 00:35:54,076
Speaker 1: not just making the person who receives a letter happy,

782
00:35:54,076 --> 00:35:55,996
Speaker 1: it makes you happy too. In fact, a study by

783
00:35:55,996 --> 00:35:59,236
Speaker 1: Marty Seligman and colleagues fines that the boost in happiness

784
00:35:59,236 --> 00:36:01,556
Speaker 1: you get small but significant boost and happiness you get

785
00:36:01,636 --> 00:36:04,156
Speaker 1: last for somewhere between one to three months, which is

786
00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:07,716
Speaker 1: sort of incredible, right, It's like this really long standing

787
00:36:07,716 --> 00:36:10,196
Speaker 1: little boost and happiness that we get from a handwritten

788
00:36:10,276 --> 00:36:10,836
Speaker 1: thank you letter.

789
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:13,516
Speaker 3: And so I love love, I love That's that's great

790
00:36:13,556 --> 00:36:15,956
Speaker 3: to know. And actually so strongly do I believe in

791
00:36:15,996 --> 00:36:17,676
Speaker 3: the thank you letter thing. When we were doing the

792
00:36:17,676 --> 00:36:20,236
Speaker 3: book for America because it came out in Britain last year,

793
00:36:20,356 --> 00:36:23,636
Speaker 3: I said to Gallery Simon and Schuster, the publishers, and said, look,

794
00:36:23,676 --> 00:36:25,796
Speaker 3: can I do an appendix which I should have done

795
00:36:26,076 --> 00:36:27,516
Speaker 3: for the UK book, but I didn't think of it

796
00:36:27,556 --> 00:36:31,276
Speaker 3: at the time of sample thank you letters because sometimes

797
00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:32,756
Speaker 3: people say to me Oh, yeah, well I don't know

798
00:36:32,796 --> 00:36:34,956
Speaker 3: what to say, which I don't think is much of

799
00:36:34,996 --> 00:36:37,796
Speaker 3: an excuse. I mean, whisper it quietly. I mean, you

800
00:36:37,796 --> 00:36:39,556
Speaker 3: can get AI to help you write a thank you

801
00:36:39,636 --> 00:36:41,756
Speaker 3: letter if you really really are struggling, you know, and

802
00:36:41,836 --> 00:36:44,716
Speaker 3: AI help thank you letters better than nothing. So yes,

803
00:36:44,756 --> 00:36:48,116
Speaker 3: I've done this sort of additional appendix of all different

804
00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:53,116
Speaker 3: scenarios and just things just to help inspire people so

805
00:36:53,196 --> 00:36:55,036
Speaker 3: they know sort of how long they should be writing

806
00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:57,636
Speaker 3: and what sort of tone it should take.

807
00:36:57,796 --> 00:36:59,876
Speaker 1: It's funny that we have such trouble with thank you letters,

808
00:36:59,876 --> 00:37:02,116
Speaker 1: because I think we don't have that much trouble with

809
00:37:02,196 --> 00:37:05,356
Speaker 1: the opposite, which is like writing complaint letters or complaint

810
00:37:05,396 --> 00:37:07,476
Speaker 1: reviews on Yelp or something like that. It seems like

811
00:37:07,516 --> 00:37:10,476
Speaker 1: the negative part of it comes really easily to us.

812
00:37:10,996 --> 00:37:13,356
Speaker 1: But you have a little etiquette suggestion here as well.

813
00:37:13,476 --> 00:37:16,316
Speaker 1: You know that we should try to limit our complaints generally,

814
00:37:16,436 --> 00:37:19,076
Speaker 1: or at least try to balance our complaints with the positives.

815
00:37:19,076 --> 00:37:20,636
Speaker 3: I think it should be a two to one ratio

816
00:37:20,716 --> 00:37:21,636
Speaker 3: at minimum.

817
00:37:21,676 --> 00:37:24,036
Speaker 1: So we've talked so much about these kinds of traditions

818
00:37:24,076 --> 00:37:26,036
Speaker 1: that have come, you know, from back in the day,

819
00:37:26,116 --> 00:37:28,876
Speaker 1: from our time of swords and aristocracy and so on.

820
00:37:29,796 --> 00:37:32,676
Speaker 1: You've noticed that etiquette is changing and probably will change.

821
00:37:32,716 --> 00:37:34,756
Speaker 1: If we add this podcast in two hundred years, none

822
00:37:34,796 --> 00:37:37,356
Speaker 1: of what we said might be the same. Where are

823
00:37:37,356 --> 00:37:40,036
Speaker 1: the domains where you think it's changing, especially in some

824
00:37:40,076 --> 00:37:41,956
Speaker 1: of these spots where we might be dealing with kind

825
00:37:41,956 --> 00:37:44,276
Speaker 1: of new moments of uncertainty or new sort of social

826
00:37:44,316 --> 00:37:46,236
Speaker 1: times that feel potentially fraud.

827
00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:51,596
Speaker 3: I think attitudes and more enlightened approaches generally to gender

828
00:37:51,836 --> 00:37:56,036
Speaker 3: I think is changing etiquette certainly. You know, I've taught

829
00:37:56,116 --> 00:37:59,636
Speaker 3: etiquette for nearly twenty years, and twenty years ago, I

830
00:37:59,636 --> 00:38:03,156
Speaker 3: would have said, socially, in terms of the introduction, precedence,

831
00:38:03,316 --> 00:38:06,156
Speaker 3: deciding who is more important than others in the introduction,

832
00:38:06,236 --> 00:38:08,476
Speaker 3: you've got to save somebody's name first. Obviously in a

833
00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:13,236
Speaker 3: business gender is irrelevant to age. But socially, twenty years

834
00:38:13,236 --> 00:38:15,396
Speaker 3: ago you would have looked at age and gender. So

835
00:38:15,516 --> 00:38:19,836
Speaker 3: Granny being eighty is lifted beyond Annie, who's eighteen. So

836
00:38:19,836 --> 00:38:22,396
Speaker 3: you would say, Granny man, produce Annie. It's Granny is old.

837
00:38:22,596 --> 00:38:25,756
Speaker 3: But if you had Anie and you had Matthew, you

838
00:38:25,796 --> 00:38:29,916
Speaker 3: would have gone historically, Annie man introduced Matthew, and you

839
00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:33,436
Speaker 3: would have risen any and not Matthew. I think that

840
00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:36,156
Speaker 3: I think age is still socially is still looked at,

841
00:38:36,276 --> 00:38:38,756
Speaker 3: and that's fair enough. I say it's fair enough. Come

842
00:38:38,796 --> 00:38:40,156
Speaker 3: back to me in twenty years I might have had

843
00:38:40,196 --> 00:38:43,116
Speaker 3: an epiphany and'd say it's not. But the gender one

844
00:38:43,156 --> 00:38:45,836
Speaker 3: we are completely as we are more accepting and more

845
00:38:45,876 --> 00:38:50,916
Speaker 3: aware of different genders. We are just revising that and

846
00:38:50,956 --> 00:38:53,436
Speaker 3: the weight that we give that. And sometimes it will

847
00:38:53,476 --> 00:38:55,796
Speaker 3: be correct in the introduction to do it that way,

848
00:38:55,996 --> 00:38:58,516
Speaker 3: but not always. And actually it's probably moving towards a

849
00:38:58,556 --> 00:39:04,276
Speaker 3: more business orientated structure. Of it goes on rank or position. Socially,

850
00:39:04,276 --> 00:39:06,156
Speaker 3: we don't of course have ranks. I mean we do

851
00:39:06,196 --> 00:39:08,276
Speaker 3: in Britain because we have the aristocracy, but they are

852
00:39:08,756 --> 00:39:12,316
Speaker 3: infant to some in comparison to the general population.

853
00:39:12,476 --> 00:39:13,876
Speaker 1: Do you think that we're going to be developing new

854
00:39:13,876 --> 00:39:16,996
Speaker 1: etiquette rules for new technologies? The folks that open ai

855
00:39:17,156 --> 00:39:19,916
Speaker 1: sort of issued this plea asking, hey, when you talk

856
00:39:19,956 --> 00:39:22,516
Speaker 1: to chat GPT, can you not tell them please and

857
00:39:22,556 --> 00:39:25,316
Speaker 1: thank you because just like those words take up so

858
00:39:25,396 --> 00:39:27,916
Speaker 1: much space in a it's like so much computing power

859
00:39:27,916 --> 00:39:30,396
Speaker 1: for open ai to kind of deal with the thank you,

860
00:39:30,436 --> 00:39:32,236
Speaker 1: so that just people just deleted them. It would be

861
00:39:32,276 --> 00:39:35,436
Speaker 1: faster and would save you know, whole rainforest of computing

862
00:39:35,476 --> 00:39:37,316
Speaker 1: power and stuff. And I just found, oh my gosh,

863
00:39:37,396 --> 00:39:39,396
Speaker 1: it's so hard for us to shut off these etiquette

864
00:39:39,436 --> 00:39:42,156
Speaker 1: rules even when we're talking to an AI and I

865
00:39:42,196 --> 00:39:43,756
Speaker 1: hope we don't. I hope we keep our please and

866
00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:46,356
Speaker 1: thank you when we're talking to Claude and chat GPT

867
00:39:46,516 --> 00:39:46,876
Speaker 1: and so on.

868
00:39:47,076 --> 00:39:50,996
Speaker 3: Exactly. Yes, ignore what open a I say. Please keep

869
00:39:51,076 --> 00:39:53,316
Speaker 3: saying please and thank you to your smart speaker. I

870
00:39:53,356 --> 00:39:56,596
Speaker 3: mean I still will ask whatever my smart speaker is called,

871
00:39:56,636 --> 00:39:59,836
Speaker 3: I won't say it. Now you do this please wich,

872
00:39:59,876 --> 00:40:02,196
Speaker 3: I think. Is it's nice, It's we need to sort

873
00:40:02,236 --> 00:40:05,676
Speaker 3: of keep the reflex and keep the politeness muscle honed.

874
00:40:05,756 --> 00:40:07,756
Speaker 1: Hopefully we can write her a thank you letter too,

875
00:40:07,796 --> 00:40:09,236
Speaker 1: because she does so much for us.

876
00:40:09,156 --> 00:40:14,676
Speaker 3: A smart speaker, gratefully, gratefully receive it.

877
00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:17,556
Speaker 1: And this as a last question, lightning around top three

878
00:40:17,996 --> 00:40:19,596
Speaker 1: etiquette tips that you wish everyone knows.

879
00:40:19,676 --> 00:40:21,556
Speaker 3: Well, Yeah, you don't need to have read just good

880
00:40:21,556 --> 00:40:24,636
Speaker 3: man as, gone to an etiquette class or gone, you know,

881
00:40:24,876 --> 00:40:27,916
Speaker 3: watched an etique video on Instagram to know you should

882
00:40:27,916 --> 00:40:30,236
Speaker 3: be making eye contact with people when you talk to them,

883
00:40:30,356 --> 00:40:32,156
Speaker 3: especially when you greet them, but also when you talk

884
00:40:32,196 --> 00:40:35,756
Speaker 3: to them. Have a good handshake. Now, culturally what is

885
00:40:35,756 --> 00:40:38,476
Speaker 3: a good handshake changes, but in the West it's basically

886
00:40:38,516 --> 00:40:42,996
Speaker 3: two pumps, locking the fingers and the thumb again, making

887
00:40:43,036 --> 00:40:46,236
Speaker 3: eye contact firm, but not too firm. And try to

888
00:40:46,316 --> 00:40:50,796
Speaker 3: use people's names as much as possible because we respond better.

889
00:40:51,036 --> 00:40:53,596
Speaker 3: Happiness valve is released in US when we hear our

890
00:40:53,636 --> 00:40:56,516
Speaker 3: own name and when it's used and we actually the

891
00:40:56,516 --> 00:40:59,116
Speaker 3: opposite valve. The valve gets turned off when someone gets

892
00:40:59,116 --> 00:41:01,476
Speaker 3: our name wrong. And if I'm allowed a fourth you

893
00:41:01,556 --> 00:41:03,916
Speaker 3: cannot say please or thank you enough.

894
00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:08,556
Speaker 2: And to honor that spirit of politeness, I'd like to

895
00:41:08,596 --> 00:41:11,396
Speaker 2: offer my deepest thanks to William Hansen for such an

896
00:41:11,436 --> 00:41:14,356
Speaker 2: enlightening interview. After chatting with him, I'm going to try

897
00:41:14,396 --> 00:41:16,996
Speaker 2: to embrace the rules of etiquette a bit more because

898
00:41:16,996 --> 00:41:19,236
Speaker 2: a little formality does seem to be a great way

899
00:41:19,356 --> 00:41:21,596
Speaker 2: to show love and respect to the people you care about.

900
00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:23,996
Speaker 2: You know, I might even go out and find some

901
00:41:24,036 --> 00:41:28,516
Speaker 2: cloth napkins. In our next episode on creative coping strategies,

902
00:41:28,876 --> 00:41:31,636
Speaker 2: we'll be moving from the gentility of dining rooms to

903
00:41:31,676 --> 00:41:34,436
Speaker 2: the wilds of mother nature, because I'll be talking with

904
00:41:34,476 --> 00:41:36,916
Speaker 2: someone who finds her comfort in birds.

905
00:41:40,076 --> 00:41:40,516
Speaker 1: That's all.

906
00:41:40,516 --> 00:41:43,316
Speaker 2: Next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie

907
00:41:43,356 --> 00:41:43,836
Speaker 2: Santos