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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the best of Coast to Coast podcast.

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Speaker 1: fascinating conversation and check out recent shows where we learned

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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio and welcome back to Coast to Coast George

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Speaker 1: and Orri with you. I'm gonna introduce you to two

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Speaker 1: retired U. S. Navy Seals. The first is Jocko Willink.

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Speaker 1: He's a retired U. S. Navy Seal officer co founder

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Speaker 1: of echelon Front, where he serves as the CEO, leadership instructor, speaker,

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Speaker 1: strategic advisor to highly successful companies and organizations. Jacko spent

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Speaker 1: twenty years in the Seal Teams, rising from the ranks

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Speaker 1: to become a Seal officer, became the most highly decorated

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Speaker 1: special operations in it of the Iraq War. Jacko returned

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Speaker 1: from Iraq and became officer in charge of training for

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Speaker 1: all West Coast Seal Teams. Let's say hello to Jacko.

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Speaker 1: First of all, Hello there, Jacko. Welcome to the show, George,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me on. I'm looking forward to this.

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Speaker 1: And let us bring in Laife Baban, a former U. S.

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Speaker 1: Navy Seal. He's your partner co founder of Echelon Front.

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Speaker 1: As well, he serves as president and chief operating officer.

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Speaker 1: He too as a leadership instructor, speaker, strategic advisor to

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Speaker 1: companies and business leaders. A graduate of the U. S.

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Speaker 1: Naval Academy, he served thirteen years in the Navy, including

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Speaker 1: nine in the Seals Teams, including time as a platoon commander,

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Speaker 1: one of the most highly decorated special operations unit of

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Speaker 1: the Iraq War. Laife, welcome to the show too, George,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having us. I want to thank you both

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Speaker 1: for serving um. I served nine years in the Navy.

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Speaker 1: My unit had got called up the Desert Storm with

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Speaker 1: General Schwartzcoff. We were public information officers and I had

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Speaker 1: retired or got out of it a month before the

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Speaker 1: Iraq War. It's amazing, but to thank you for what

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Speaker 1: you both do, appreciate your service. So let us talk

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Speaker 1: about the first book for just a little bit, because

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Speaker 1: that that will set the stage for the dichotomy of leadership.

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Speaker 1: And let's start with you life if we can. Extreme

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Speaker 1: Ownership tell us about that. Well, Jacolin I launched a

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Speaker 1: uh we lost our leadership company about seven years ago now,

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Speaker 1: and as we work with a number of companies, they

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Speaker 1: would ask us, hey, can you write down your leadership principle?

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Speaker 1: Is going to give us something the reference, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're not here working with us, And so the

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Speaker 1: demand signal grew and grew and grew, and finally we

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Speaker 1: put that down and that became the book that we

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Speaker 1: we we call Extreme Ownership. So that was the principles

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Speaker 1: that we learned on the battlefield. This this idea that

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Speaker 1: leaders have to own everything in the world. There's no

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Speaker 1: one to blame, there's no excuses, and you got to

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Speaker 1: own not just what you're responsible for, but everything that

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Speaker 1: impacts your mission. And that's what we of the book

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Speaker 1: because that's really the foundational principle upon which everything else

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Speaker 1: is based. We talked about the four laws of combat

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Speaker 1: in that book covered move, simple, prioritize, and execute decentralized command.

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Speaker 1: Those four laws of combat are how a team works together,

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Speaker 1: and those are lessons we bought brought back from the

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Speaker 1: battlefield that applied directly to any team in any organization.

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Speaker 1: Well that see, that's what's so important. It's this is

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Speaker 1: not a book that a Coughtomy of Leadership, for example,

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Speaker 1: is not a book about just the Iraq War, but

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Speaker 1: it's about leadership and what you you two went through

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Speaker 1: in that war and what they're probably still going through

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Speaker 1: right now that you can apply to just about everything

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Speaker 1: in your day to day living, isn't it. Yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: this is JOCKO. And certainly we found that as we

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Speaker 1: started working with civilian companies that the leadership principles that

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Speaker 1: we used on the battlefield were leadership principles that applied

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Speaker 1: in any situation. And then as we saw it unfold

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Speaker 1: into the civilian sector completely, we saw that people utilize

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Speaker 1: these skills to help with their personal lives, to help

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Speaker 1: with their marriage, to help with their relationships with their kids,

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Speaker 1: and how they interact with their kids schools or other

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Speaker 1: organizations that they're involved in. So yeah, they're they're really

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Speaker 1: universal principles, unlike Vietnam, Jocko, where sadly, when the soldiers

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Speaker 1: came back they were not the yield as as heroes

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Speaker 1: and as patriots, but they were looked down upon by

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Speaker 1: so many people. And that was the biggest mistake I

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Speaker 1: think I've ever seen, and you know, I was in

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Speaker 1: my early twenties when that was happening. When you came

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Speaker 1: back from Iraq, did you feel as if the American

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Speaker 1: public supported you as a military person, not necessarily the war.

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Speaker 1: I've got my issues with that, but I mean as

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Speaker 1: a soldier, did you get the kind of respect you deserved? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I would say we definitely got well respected and well

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Speaker 1: treated when we came home from the war. And I

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Speaker 1: think I think that we learned our lessons as a

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Speaker 1: nation after Vietnam to make sure that our veterans, when

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Speaker 1: they come home from war regard us of how someone

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Speaker 1: might feel about the war itself, that they treat our soldiers, sailors, airmen,

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Speaker 1: and marines with respect for doing their job and doing

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Speaker 1: their part in trying to protect freedom life. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about leadership today and whether it's the

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Speaker 1: corporate world or politics. How do you think it's going well.

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Speaker 1: I think we see we see good leaders and we

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Speaker 1: see bad leaders. And uh, you know, the the the

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Speaker 1: biggest thing that leaders need to exhibit as humility. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And there's uh that quality humility allows allows leaders to

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Speaker 1: look in the mirror, take this brutally on, brutally on

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Speaker 1: a self assessment, uh, and recognize where they can get better,

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Speaker 1: Recognize where their team is maybe not accomplished with their mission,

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Speaker 1: where they where they can improve. And frankly, we work

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Speaker 1: with amazing leaders across about every industry that you can imagine. Uh,

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Speaker 1: incredible leaders and stuff, men and women that are stepping up,

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Speaker 1: they are leading their teams. Uh. And I'd say we've

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Speaker 1: got pretty strongly the ship. Isn't a good leader someone

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Speaker 1: who's not afraid to admit they made a mistake. Sometimes

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Speaker 1: that's exactly it. And that's exactly it because guess guess who,

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Speaker 1: Guess who never made mistakes. Everyone's gonna make mistakes. So

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Speaker 1: this idea that like you can't admit that you made

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Speaker 1: a mistake, Uh, it's ridiculous. Everyone already knows that you're

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Speaker 1: gonna you're you're gonna you're gonna screw up from time

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Speaker 1: to time. So The reason the extreme ownership is so

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Speaker 1: important is that that concept really resonated with so many people.

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Speaker 1: Is is that if you don't admit your mistakes, you're

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Speaker 1: never gonna actually you're never gonna actually take a look

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Speaker 1: at those mistakes, figure out a problem, to figure out

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Speaker 1: the solution to the problem. So those problems continue to

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Speaker 1: happen over and over and over again. So uh and

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Speaker 1: of course then you never get better as a results.

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Speaker 1: So that's really the that's why humility is so important,

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Speaker 1: That's why extream ownership is so important. And really then

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Speaker 1: then the bigger issue we see with leadership, that's why

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Speaker 1: we wrote the second book that dichotomy of leadership is

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Speaker 1: because it's one of the most common problems we see

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Speaker 1: the leaders is this idea that you know, the hearer

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Speaker 1: word extreme in the title there and misinterpret that to

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Speaker 1: think they got to be on the extreme uh end

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Speaker 1: of of one side or the other of these two

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Speaker 1: forces pulling on them. Uh. And really what leaders need

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Speaker 1: is balance. You got to you gotta find balance somewhere

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Speaker 1: in the middle between two opposing forces. So you've got

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Speaker 1: to be a leader and you gotta be a follower. Well,

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Speaker 1: and Teddy Roosevelt once said, if you have never made

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Speaker 1: a mistake, that means you've never tried at anything. That's

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Speaker 1: exactly how close, JOCKO, should a company leader, a military

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Speaker 1: leader get to their rank and file or the troops.

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Speaker 1: I've heard so many different things that they should not

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Speaker 1: be friendly with the people that they work with or

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Speaker 1: who work under them, And then I've heard other people

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Speaker 1: say it's it's creates a family atmosphere if they know

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Speaker 1: them well. So, where where do you stand, George? That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a great question, and that that actually comes

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Speaker 1: directly from something that we talk about inside the economy

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Speaker 1: of leadership, because that is of those dichotomies that absolutely

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Speaker 1: has to be balanced. And the fact of the matter is,

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Speaker 1: can a leader be too close to their troops where

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Speaker 1: they start to make decisions based on their personal relationships

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Speaker 1: instead of based on what's best for the mission. Yes,

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Speaker 1: that can absolutely happen. Can a leader be too distant

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Speaker 1: from their troops where they don't know them well enough

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Speaker 1: to understand what's driving them, what's motivating them, and they

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Speaker 1: don't understand that what's happening in their personal lives and

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Speaker 1: what kind of decisions they could make to help the

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Speaker 1: person have a better life overall. Yes, they can be

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Speaker 1: too distant. So what a what a leader has to

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Speaker 1: do is they have to constantly modulate between being too

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Speaker 1: close and being too far away from their people. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing that's tricky, especially with that dichotomy is

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Speaker 1: there's different people that can handle it differently. So I

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Speaker 1: might have one subordinate leader that or supportive person on

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Speaker 1: my team that I can be very very close to.

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Speaker 1: But when you know we can go out, we can

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Speaker 1: we can go out and have some dinner, we can

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Speaker 1: hang out on the weekends. But when we get to work,

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Speaker 1: he knows it's professional, goes back into that mode of

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Speaker 1: of me being the bosson and him, you know, following

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Speaker 1: what I what I say, or at least doing what

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Speaker 1: we're trying to make happen. On the other hand, I

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Speaker 1: might have someone that I go out to dinner with

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Speaker 1: one time or hang up hang out with over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, he thinks we're best friends and

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Speaker 1: he doesn't need to listen to me at work anymore.

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Speaker 1: What I have to do is I have to find

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Speaker 1: the balance in between those two. It's a little bit

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Speaker 1: different for each person. I would tell you this. When

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Speaker 1: you work with someone, you lean towards being a little

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Speaker 1: bit more distant at the beginning, because it's harder to

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Speaker 1: to take that slack back out and and try and

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Speaker 1: try and separate yourself than it is to continue to

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Speaker 1: to get closer to someone over time in a controlled

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Speaker 1: manner so that that that that trust and that relationship

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Speaker 1: doesn't get violated. I know in our case here at

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Speaker 1: Coast to Coast, I've got a handful of people that

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Speaker 1: I work with that I have for the last sixteen

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Speaker 1: years minimal turnover, and I let them do their thing.

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Speaker 1: I'll step in what I think I have to, but

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Speaker 1: but by and large their professionals, they know what they're

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Speaker 1: doing in all capacities, um. But they know that if

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Speaker 1: I say something, that's the way it is. And they

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Speaker 1: have that kind of respect, and I have that kind

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Speaker 1: of respect for them. Yeah, and that makes sense. And

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you if you have a good relationship with

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Speaker 1: your people, and I'll put you on the spot now, George,

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Speaker 1: if one of your people, if you said, hey, this

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Speaker 1: is the way we're gonna do it, and one of

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Speaker 1: your people that has a lot of experiences, Hey, George,

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Speaker 1: I think this might be a better way. And here's

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Speaker 1: why a good leader, a good boss is going to say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, your idea makes sense, let's go with that,

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Speaker 1: and there's no ego getting involved. To try and do

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Speaker 1: as a team has come up with the best plan,

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Speaker 1: not worry about who actually came up with a plan

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Speaker 1: and who's going to get credit. It's all about what's

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Speaker 1: best for the team. Yeah, I want my staffords to

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Speaker 1: challenge me. I don't want to surround myself with a

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Speaker 1: bunch of yes people's right. And I advise leaders to

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Speaker 1: to set themselves up in that way all the time.

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Speaker 1: You don't want to be surrounded by yes man. You

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Speaker 1: don't want to be in an echo chamber. The best

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Speaker 1: ideas are not formulated inside of an echo chamber. That's

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Speaker 1: that doesn't work out. When we talk about some of

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Speaker 1: the things that you two went through in Iraq and

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Speaker 1: just reading the Economy of leadership, I mean you went

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Speaker 1: through a lot of things where you know you are

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Speaker 1: almost ambushed. When you noticed, for example, that the citizens

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Speaker 1: of Ramadi started disappearing, you knew there was going to

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Speaker 1: be an eminent attack, that it was going to come

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Speaker 1: upon you. What's it like to be in that kind

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Speaker 1: of situation, knowing that at any moment, from any building

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Speaker 1: you could get killed. Well, the urban environment is incredibly

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Speaker 1: difficult to fight in and we certainly uh found that

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Speaker 1: out your day in day out operations where you know

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Speaker 1: that we're fighting as an insurgency that hid amongst the

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Speaker 1: civilian populace. Uh, it was hard to determine, you know,

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Speaker 1: who the bad guys were, and you have folks that

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Speaker 1: would come out and dulp a hunder round uh hunter

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Speaker 1: rounds for a belfit machine gun at you and then

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Speaker 1: ditch their weapon and then walked down the street as

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Speaker 1: if they're you know, an average and you can't shoot

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Speaker 1: them because they're they're unarmed. So that's those were incredibly difficult.

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Speaker 1: We just we we had to uh. We we had

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Speaker 1: an aggressive posture as we moved in those areas. We

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Speaker 1: tried to mitigate risk by setting up sniper overwatched teams

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Speaker 1: that could uh that could protect our guys on the ground.

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Speaker 1: But frankly, I think the best way we could describe

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Speaker 1: those operations, George was awesome. We we had we had

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Speaker 1: a lot of fun in there, and it was we

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Speaker 1: had some tough, tough fights and we had some tough

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Speaker 1: days where we lost guys uh, and I trade those

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Speaker 1: days for anything, but most of those days were some

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Speaker 1: of the best days of my life. We we knew

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Speaker 1: we were fighting an evil insurgency. We knew we were

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Speaker 1: we were delivering impact on the battlefield, and we learned Uh.

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Speaker 1: We learned tremendous leadership lessons learned from those efforts. Listen

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Speaker 1: to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at one

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