WEBVTT - Ep. 496: A Game Warden on Otter Attacks and Being Your Referee 0:00:08.920 --> 0:00:13.320 This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.599 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't 0:00:18.600 --> 0:00:19.280 predict anything. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.800 The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by First Light. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.079 Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.560 for el, First Light has performance apparel to support every 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.440 hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light 0:00:32.520 --> 0:00:35.680 dot com. F I R S T L I T 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.960 E dot com. 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:41.440 Oh you know what I would wish I could make 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:46.360 you know? At the where the where Matthew plays soccer. Yeah, 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:51.159 they have these bathrooms in there. They're like the most indestructible. 0:00:52.440 --> 0:00:54.480 Like made out of some synthetic material. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.600 Yeah, like welded stainless urinals and like like just like cacking. 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.560 I mean you could go near the pressure washer. 0:01:02.000 --> 0:01:04.039 Yeah, that is a bathroom. 0:01:04.080 --> 0:01:08.440 Man, here's a quick journal story for you. 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:08.840 Love it. 0:01:08.920 --> 0:01:10.559 Have you ever fished anyone out of a vault? 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.280 This sounds like we should be recording you are we are? 0:01:14.760 --> 0:01:14.959 We are. 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:16.280 Can you turn the machine. 0:01:16.040 --> 0:01:18.399 On machines on so that it fails first? 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:20.360 Can you make a point to start it with this 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:21.160 urinal sort? 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.200 We will do so. The computers we use at work. 0:01:24.240 --> 0:01:28.720 Are tough books, so they're big tanks. They're ten pounds there. 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.880 Ladies and gentlemen, this is a game Montana game warden 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:35.480 and Adam pancrats telling you this story. We're introduce some 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:36.640 more thoroughly in a minute. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:40.760 So these computers are they're tough books. You can supposedly 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.520 drive a tank over them, shoot them whatever. They're there. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.760 They're laptops that are meant to be used in the field. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.840 So if you drop your laptop, more than likely the 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:51.400 screen is going to break ours. Hopefully it won't. Well, 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.760 we were doing training in a Montana city here in 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:59.040 Region three, using a public meeting room, and one of 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.800 our wardens was using the bathroom using the Jurnal, and 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:05.160 I think he had a tough book tucked under his 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:07.440 his arm as he was using the Jurnal standing there 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.200 at some point that the computer slips from his hands, 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.840 drops to the floor, bounces up so hard, hits the 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:18.800 bottom of the journal and shatters the porcelain journal in 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.200 the in the public restroom. 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.200 Brought to book. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:26.040 That's a good twist. 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:27.000 That's great. 0:02:27.040 --> 0:02:29.440 So then I had to go explain to the host, 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.440 the person who runs the facility, thank you for letting 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.639 us use your facility for our training meeting. However, we 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:38.440 destroyed one of your journals with our computer. 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:40.320 Laptop destroyed your Jurnal. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:46.919 The laptop was fine, but urinal completely. We've never used 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.560 that that building since then. We I'm sure we're welcome back. 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.600 But the problem you have that you might not realize 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:55.639 is there's no way that they believe you that that's 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:56.240 what happened. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.000 No wet some banned. 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:01.880 Yeah, then they kind of tried tell me it was 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:02.440 a laptop. 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.720 Well, it's in the town of West Yellowstone. I think 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:08.280 they're kind of used to it. If you've ever been 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:09.880 down there and you see some of the signs in 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:12.800 the public bathrooms directing people like not to stand on 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.240 toilets down there and stuff because the cultural differences and 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.360 how they use toilets, and so they are constantly having 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.200 toilets broken down there based on just people misusing or 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:24.040 not using toilets. 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:27.520 Yeah, my culture is like that old sn L commercial 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:30.240 where they're all disposable, So every time I use one, 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:31.040 I then break it. 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:37.520 Join today by Adam Pancrats, Montana game Warden. Give your 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:39.320 specific do you guys call it rank? What do you 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:39.840 guys call it. 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:43.200 Yeah, we have ranks or title give me So I'm 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:47.200 a game warden captain for Southwest Montana. There's eight captains 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.040 that run different parts of the agency or different areas. 0:03:51.520 --> 0:03:55.200 So Southwest Montana's mine. We have game wardens, we have 0:03:55.240 --> 0:04:01.880 regional investigators, sergeants, captains, assistant chief chief Those are kind 0:04:01.880 --> 0:04:03.720 of all of our ranks spread out through the state. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:06.920 If there's seven regions, why is there eight? 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:10.760 The eighth one is our investigative unit. I see, So 0:04:10.800 --> 0:04:13.240 there's a captain who kind of runs our investigative unit. 0:04:13.360 --> 0:04:16.880 So there's regional investigators, which are kind of like detectives 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:19.520 that work in the region, and then we have an 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:21.200 investigative squad up in Helen. 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:24.440 And those detectives are playing some kind of like playing 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:28.080 closed detective correct and they work on more longer term yep. 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.280 So so longer term wildlife cases, commercial cases, those type 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:34.040 of things. So we have field wardens are out there 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.320 in the field in uniform, and then a plane closed 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:41.040 kind of unit that helps out with stuff long term, 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.799 takes over cases when they go multi county, multi district, 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:47.799 across the state, maybe multi state, all those type of things. 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:49.440 You know, you know what I wish we would have 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.279 done know how to do this next time, we should 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:55.119 do a thing. We've always talked about having call in capabilities. 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.120 We should do a thing, ask a game work, we 0:04:59.240 --> 0:04:59.960 just have the line. 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:02.400 I was thinking, we should have just solicited the whole 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.960 office for questions and just did nothing but questions. 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:07.400 Bunch, Yeah, like we keep joing like a bunch of people. 0:05:07.440 --> 0:05:12.119 Be like, so a friend of mine, hypothetically a friend 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:19.400 of mine, yeah, you know, pulling into the parking lot 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:22.680 seeing that game boarding truck, I bout backed out. I 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:23.400 was like, oh that's right. 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.880 Well how about how about how about our buddy, uh 0:05:28.160 --> 0:05:33.480 Stewart down there at Crooked Sky, remember who lives across 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:34.120 the street. 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.560 Yeah, oh, we haven't talked about this. We did need 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:37.080 to talk about this. 0:05:37.960 --> 0:05:40.480 About that, and then the other thing, which is our 0:05:40.520 --> 0:05:41.080 big trip. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:41.440 Yeah. 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.200 The main thing is he's an outfitter. He's an outfitter 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:47.440 and he literally is across the street. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.440 Did he choose that? Did he move the. 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.479 Board and moved in? Yeah? 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.000 So he says there's two ways looking at him. 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.520 One you gotta keep on the up and or you're 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.640 just hiding and playing sight and they'll just assume, Well, 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:04.160 that guy over. 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:07.600 There's no way so you guys could prescribe to keep 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:09.800 your enemies close. Is that what you're telling me. 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.839 When this but this happened to him, he did not 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:13.640 pick the spot. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.120 We had a good laugh about it. 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.640 When I was doing deal with Idaho fishing game a 0:06:18.640 --> 0:06:21.760 couple of years ago, they had a case study on 0:06:22.640 --> 0:06:28.120 using like over the counter trackers GPS trackers for the 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:34.440 first time, and the these research things out on the 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:39.560 prairie kept disappearing very expensive. Plus they were there doing 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:46.000 I think sage grouse research maybe, and they put you know, 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.480 like an Apple tracking device or you know, one of 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.720 the over the counter little trackers that you can keep 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:54.600 on your phone. And the warden who was in charge 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.479 of this case was super annoyed with it because it 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.279 would go off any anytime there was like a wrong 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.279 wind on the prairie, you know, the piece of merchandise 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.360 would shake and it would alert on his phone. And 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:10.440 he started going out there and nothing would happen. And 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:16.000 then sure enough, at like the very end of the season, 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.240 like the onset of winter, the thing goes off on 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:25.640 his phone and he's like, oh, that is right next 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:31.120 to my house. And his next door neighbor was the 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:38.680 person like the very rural part of Idaho, but like 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:43.000 the third house up on the street is the person 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.040 that this guy had spent like two years trying to catch. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.000 And they go and what it was. It was a 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:58.640 solar powered hot fence units, but had had some other 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.560 fancy stuff in there for the research dealing. This gentleman 0:08:02.640 --> 0:08:06.360 had decided they would be better served repurpose to run 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:07.840 a hot fence around his chicken coop. 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.600 Sure years ago, I was working on a story about 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:15.440 livestock theft, a magazine feature about livestock theft, and I 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.280 was with these wural crime investigators and when remember when 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:20.640 scrap got super high, Like one of the times scrap 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:22.400 met was super high. 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:23.200 It was so bad. 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:27.400 He said they would just go and throw tracking devices 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:31.280 into irrigation pipe. Then just wait, because you just knew 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:33.480 if you told a guy like, oh yeah, just stack 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:35.439 a bunch of irrigation pipe by the road and we'll 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.400 throw a sensor in there. Sure enough, it was because 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.439 when it was hot, it was hot. On on. Then 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:47.120 the Real Crime Task Force, Uh oh, another that we 0:08:47.160 --> 0:08:49.400 covered this years ago. Do you remember the guy that 0:08:49.480 --> 0:08:52.160 they had they were doing the turkey banding. They had 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.920 turkeys with tracking devices on them, and then one day 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:00.240 get a turkey, you know, going down the highway and 0:09:00.280 --> 0:09:03.839 he says, it winds up. They wind up tracking down 0:09:03.920 --> 0:09:07.400 his turkey and he's walking around and realizes that, hey, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.880 this turkey is hiding under a big pile of firewood. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.839 It was there. It was their dead turkey that some 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.560 guy of us have realized they had the censor and 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.760 somehow thought that like burying it in firewood would take 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.240 care of the problem on. 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:21.960 His own place. 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:24.360 Yeah, it was on his place and he got scared 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.160 and buried in an under a pile of fire would 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.880 like that would like disturb the transmission of the signal 0:09:28.960 --> 0:09:31.040 or something. And there was another guy that rode in 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:32.560 at the same time. I think they would have been 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.000 the same turkey study. They found one of their turkeys. 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:37.880 They tracked it to a hotel, and it was with 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:39.160 a gentleman in a hotel. 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:45.600 Uh, picked it up on fire like Craig's book or Craigslist. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:47.280 No, he had brought the turkey. 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.160 No, you know how hotel? 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:50.120 Oh yeah, yeah. 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.280 That's how conspiracy theories about. Like people that are like, oh, 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.800 they got trackers and the animals all over the place. 0:09:56.880 --> 0:10:00.320 You hear like weird conspiracy theories about when people poach deer, 0:10:00.400 --> 0:10:01.480 like they know where you know. 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:03.280 Oh, do you know there's a new one floating around 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.120 out there right now that someone has asked me about. 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.720 This is the best one. Yeah, that they're given. Uh. 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:17.000 They're in order to get conservative rural people to take 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:21.040 the vaccine. They're actually getting there putting the vaccine into 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.720 deer and then you eat the deer meat. 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:26.240 I'm like, that's mighty efficient. 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:28.880 Get your protein in your vaccine. 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.280 At the same it's a very efficient way to administer this. 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:35.800 Buddy of mine text me like, hey, man, do you 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:36.760 think this is true? 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:38.880 Uh? 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.880 Denver, Colorado Media your live tour, some of this is 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:44.680 gonna be sold out by now, I think. 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.199 Media Your live tour starts December six. 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:50.959 Hold on, before you start this, do you have all 0:10:51.000 --> 0:10:51.400 your notes? 0:10:52.080 --> 0:10:53.640 This is gonna be the best one I do. Yeah, 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.720 I got it pulled up in front of you. This 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.360 is gonna be a rousing one. What is meet that 0:10:59.440 --> 0:11:02.040 your live I'd ask, well, it's a bunch of things. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:03.920 One thing it is it starts out as a concert. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.560 So you go down and our very own Chester Floyd Chester, 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:11.440 the Midwester, who has opened now for Trampled by Turtles. 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:16.840 He's he's a famous musician. H Chester the Midwestern is 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:18.600 gonna do a song and kick things off like he 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.040 did at our. The last live show he did was 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.439 in Billings. We just did a one off in Billings, Montana, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:26.280 and we just had the random idea to have Chester 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.280 open the show. So Chess is gonna open the show. 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.600 Lots of Chester concert tickets there. We're gonna have We're 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:37.880 gonna talk about news, funny stuff, slide shows, trivia components. 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:41.000 We have guests joining us. We just signed up another 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.160 great guest for one of the shows coming up. So 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:45.640 we got like Kevin. These are all people I have 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.000 sort of texted with but we haven't finalized everything. 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:50.720 But so hopefully they're listening. 0:11:50.880 --> 0:11:52.040 Kevin Murphy's gonna. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.760 Be joining us on some of the nights. Giannis You 0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:58.240 tell Us is there every night. Ryan Callahan's there, some 0:11:58.280 --> 0:11:59.960 of the Knights, Clay Newcome's there some of the night. 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:04.120 We got some one off people. We got Darren Wolf, 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.960 Jason Fisher, the you know, I talked to him. We 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.880 haven't formalized it, but uh, we got weights and Fish 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:15.880 Walleye tournament administrator. He's gonna join us in Cleveland, all 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.600 kinds of stuff. I got buddies from back home. They're 0:12:18.600 --> 0:12:21.439 gonna join us on some of the our Michigan shows. 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:26.040 So every night there's stuff, there's trivia components. We decided 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:27.880 on this last night. It's gonna go like this. We're 0:12:27.920 --> 0:12:32.760 gonna have audience members selected to come up and play 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:36.200 trivia and win stuff. So when you go there, if 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:38.320 you we're gonna sell our new Trivia board game, which 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:40.199 is available right now. You can go buy it right now. 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.080 We're gonna sell our new trivia board game at the events. 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.320 Select Trivia board games are gonna have a secret thing. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:49.719 If you get the Select Trivia Board Game with the 0:12:49.760 --> 0:12:53.160 secret thing, you come up on stage and then you 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:57.280 got to win a casting contest, spinning round. We're gonna 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:02.160 have multiple We're gonna have fly spinning, bait casting. But 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:03.760 then thought it'd just be equal equipment. 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:06.720 Yeah, not everyone can do all those spinning rod. 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.360 No, No, you can take your pick accuracy contest. So you're 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:12.920 gonna have a spinning rod. There'll be a light action 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.160 spinning rod with a three eighths casting plug in. 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:17.480 A galvanized washtub. 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:18.480 Nice. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:19.520 The victor in. 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:26.120 That will compete in trivia and they can use and 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:27.120 you're gonna win stuff. 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.839 It's gonna be a great night. All the VIP stuff 0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:30.280 is all gone. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:31.080 I believe. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:34.720 All the VIP tickets are all gone. But so it's 0:13:34.720 --> 0:13:35.640 gonna be a ton of fun. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.160 Denver, Colorado, on December sixth, Mission Ballroom. Have we done 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:41.840 the Michigan ball Mission Ballroom? 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.160 Yannie, Nothing I know. 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:48.439 Of Folly Theater in Kansas City Capital Theater, and I 0:13:48.559 --> 0:13:51.200 say it so. Kansas City is December seventh, Capital Theater 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.800 December nine. That means we need to find something entertaining 0:13:56.559 --> 0:14:00.120 somewhere between Kansas City and Davenport. On December eighth, e. 0:14:01.840 --> 0:14:02.720 Stillant season. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:03.640 I say, pheasants. 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:10.240 Probably something entertaining. You know that our our most I 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.000 don't want to say the names. I don't want everybody 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:14.800 to go be talking to her. We have a recent 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:19.280 hire here who's from a farm in Iowa. What goes 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:24.000 on at that farm? Like shockingly unaware of what goes 0:14:24.040 --> 0:14:25.840 on out at the farm In terms of hunting. 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:26.840 She was surprised. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.320 Some guys used to come from far away to hunt turks, 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:33.200 but they haven't been there in years, but there's dudes 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.480 that hunt pheasants out there. But she said her parents said, 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:38.760 I don't care if you want to come out. Wait, 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:42.880 who's I'm not telling it's gonna take it too long 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:44.160 to figure it out, though. 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:47.120 Yeah, because it's just a quick zip on over to Iowa. 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:48.600 Well, they're like. 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:54.360 The office, the no, the ranch, the property to hunt. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.120 Oh well, no, you have to talk to her yees. Yeah, yeah, 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.080 well I just gave the gender away. You're narrow. You're 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:06.320 narrow right now, You're narrow this right down December did 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:13.680 I Davenport, Iowa, December ninth, Kalamazoo, Michigan December tenth. 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:14.160 Which is Dangaire sold out. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:19.800 To Detroit, Michigan, Royal Oak Music Theater December eleventh. That's 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:25.040 gonna be a fun one. Cleveland, Ohio, Agora Theater December thirteenth. 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:31.359 Means I'm gonna go visit my mom on December twelfth. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:36.560 Carnegie of Homestead Music Hall December fourteenth. 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.480 Oh, can we maybe sneak in a little ice fishing? 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:39.480 Or that be too early? 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.880 That's it really depends on the climate, which doesn't It's 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.840 not an ice angler's friend these days. 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:48.360 He's a little too far south. 0:15:49.720 --> 0:15:57.520 Philadelphia, December fifteenth, Keswick Theater. Get your tickets to come 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:03.720 on out. It'll be a very good time. Okay, I 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:04.040 do that. 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.160 Hang tight, they're gonna struggle to find something cool to 0:16:11.160 --> 0:16:14.720 do in Philadelphia. Why come on, there's just not a 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:15.600 whole lot going on there. 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.560 The other we'll do it in the other direction because 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:23.720 Levi Morgan, the world's greatest archer, Like, categorically the world's 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:24.640 best archer. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:28.200 Is joining us for the Pittsburgh Show. 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.440 That's during Pennsylvania's rifle season. I'll let you know. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.360 Yeah, but he's a big bow hunter, so maybe we 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:34.560 can squirrel hunt his place. 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.800 Squirrel won't be open because it's rifle season. What small 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:40.239 game is not open in Pennsylvania. 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:41.880 Pennsylvania needs a new. 0:16:42.640 --> 0:16:45.000 I'm just letting you know. It's not like, don't yell 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:45.240 at me. 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.760 How could Pennsylvania justify that. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:53.880 They're like they're horrible, improving but horrible history on Sunday 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:57.120 hunting and then you can't hunt squirrels during deer season. 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.240 Dude, there's a lot of hunters in pennsil Yeah. 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:01.880 I think it's just the amount of hunters in on 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.600 game lands and public land at that point in time, 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:07.879 just like people also out there squirrel hunting. 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.920 It's just it muddies the waters, I think. 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:14.920 Then it opens back up after Christmas. 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:18.280 We get stories now and then of bow hunters who 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:21.480 will have the audacity to come in. 0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:22.720 A cost. 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:25.320 It might be a strong word. Does that imply something 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:26.600 physical happened. 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.000 Verbally cost to verbally a cost? 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:32.600 I should look a look that up real quick. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.440 No, No, I'm I'm with Brody. I'm one hundred percent sure 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:36.879 that you can just verb It does not have to 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:38.000 be physical. 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:44.080 Verbal to verbally a cost. Verbally a cost. Squirrel hunters 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.920 as though their right and they have a greater right 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.920 to be in the woods. Sure in this Philadelphia or 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.600 Pennsylvania deal lends credence to that. 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:59.320 No, No, Pennsylvania's got a real short rifle season. 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.360 It's like two weeks anyways. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.399 Okay, who's smarter than me can tell me how to 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:13.119 spell a cost? Accost to approach and speak to someone 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.640 in an often challenging or aggressive way, is what Mariam said? 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.400 Does that a lot steep a cost people a lot? 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:19.680 Oh? 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:24.800 Sure? But not scrollings man, they should that's a great definition. 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:27.399 It is because it conforms the what. 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:29.640 I thought it was, which makes it good. 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:33.000 The meet at Or calendar. This year's calendar is out. 0:18:33.200 --> 0:18:36.040 It's called the Dirty Dozen. Go and check that out. 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:37.480 We put a lot of work into that calendar. Not 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:38.920 as much as normal, but a lot. 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:41.120 Yeah, it's nice to change it up too. 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:43.159 We'll go back to the old style next year. But 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.560 like I said, this year's dirty doesen't. It's twelve months, 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:48.800 so there's twelve seasons of meat Eater. It's twelve months 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:50.960 in a year. Each month is a season. 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.159 And guess what we did. January is the first season. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:56.600 A lot of cess pictures in there, a lot. 0:18:56.400 --> 0:19:01.520 Of Seth Morris photography in there. Check that out. The 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.400 trivia board game is out. The only board game where 0:19:04.440 --> 0:19:07.919 conservation always wins. A dollar from every board game sold 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:12.520 goes to conservation organizations. It's a great trivia board game. 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.200 It's meant to be highly mobile. We kicked around different 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:18.560 things with stupid boards and whatnot, but it's just the 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.200 same setup we have. It comes with hundreds of question cards, 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:26.160 comes a little mini dry erase boards, dry race markers. 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:27.400 It's travel friendly. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:31.320 It's a great gift I have had and we still 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:33.560 have one on our fishack. I have owned over the 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:38.680 years the stupidest worst outdoor trivia games where they don't 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.119 that the makers wouldn't understand the difference between objectivity and 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:44.720 subjectivity and questions, meaning a question would be. 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:46.960 Like what's the best deer cartridge? 0:19:47.200 --> 0:19:50.920 That's not trivia, that's like, that's an opinion game, which 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:52.760 if there was a way to have an opinion game, 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:53.680 I would be all in. 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.600 Well, there's an opinion game on cartridges on the website. 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:58.440 Right, but everybody knows it's a three to eight win. 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:03.760 I'll give I want to. 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:05.320 I think that we're going to see a lot get 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.040 a lot. People said, should send us pictures of playing 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:09.960 the new board game at deer Camp. 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:11.720 Well, I was just going to ask if there's any 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:14.520 prototypes around that we could take on the youth hunt. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:15.919 There are. 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:20.720 I gave one away. I gave away a random I 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:22.760 came on away to a random person. I said, don't 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.280 show anybody that, but no one that works here because 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:25.800 they'll get mad. 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:27.359 That'd be fun with the kids. 0:20:27.400 --> 0:20:29.480 And then the guy probably runs and shows everybody, and 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:30.800 then five people are going, did you get one of 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:36.159 the board games? Waited like some guy out the parking lot. 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:41.480 We were like, describe some guy more specific. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:43.680 Do you know Brody? I met at Brody last night? 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:45.040 That beat your butt. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:47.080 Bad. 0:20:47.720 --> 0:20:49.720 I don't doubt it. He probably outweighed me by one 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:51.119 hundred and fifty pounds more than that. 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.000 No, he was two fifty, he said, it's one hundred. 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:56.600 Last night we went down and we cooked dinner for 0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.760 the local football team, the ms U bobcast House. 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:02.080 One two hundred and fifty hot dogs. 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:03.399 Yeah, a lot of hot dogs. 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:06.640 Thirty six gallons game chill, enough. 0:21:06.440 --> 0:21:09.600 For a court each, a big gulp of chili each, 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:10.960 what each. 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:17.040 Had a big gold is A good reminder is uh, 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:23.320 they're kids. Oh, huge disparity, the disparity right between Like 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:26.000 you're talking to one kid who just happens to be 0:21:26.040 --> 0:21:37.359 built like livestock animal. Uh, peach fuzz, peach fuzz, kind 0:21:37.359 --> 0:21:42.080 of like some acne and stuff going on. He's playing 0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:44.600 right next to a person who looks like he's been 0:21:44.720 --> 0:21:49.239 like supporting a family of four for a decade already, right, Like, 0:21:50.400 --> 0:21:54.360 and that's just what's so odd to me about that 0:21:54.480 --> 0:21:59.200 stage of athletics is like, here's somebody who's very physically gifted, 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:03.840 and it will can continue to change dramatically. 0:22:03.880 --> 0:22:07.439 This time in this time right, No, they're still like 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.240 and they're developing, and they're still playing at a very 0:22:10.320 --> 0:22:11.440 highly competitive level. 0:22:11.520 --> 0:22:13.119 And then right next to him, you're like, oh no, 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:14.680 that is a fully developed human. 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:18.480 Yeah, and cats are one of the best Division one 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:20.119 Double A teams in the country. 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:25.439 I was impressed by the poise and politeness. Yeah, and 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:30.440 I'll point I think that you think he like, yeah, 0:22:30.680 --> 0:22:34.040 disciplines on that level. We talked about like the little kids, 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.840 but like just like very like just poised, and. 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.600 I got the impression they got a respect for their 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:43.080 coach and. 0:22:42.040 --> 0:22:45.480 And each other. I mean, they were all real. I 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.119 was kind of mixing it up back in there, and 0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:50.320 they all seem to be real nice to each other too, 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:53.720 and not like real cliquish, which is zero impressive to me. 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:55.200 I was the only one that won. 0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:59.000 Uh. We each had me and Yanni and Calich had 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:04.439 to do a compete in a physical feat not you know, 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:08.879 not surprisingly, not surprisingly, I was the only one that 0:23:09.000 --> 0:23:10.360 was able to best my opponent. 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.040 Did you compete against him? I have a lot of 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:13.840 water the water guy or something. 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:17.480 I'm not gonna acknowledge some details, but I have a 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:20.919 lot of respect for Giannis's physical capabilities. 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.679 But when the kid stood up to go against Giannis, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:27.280 it was just very clear that it was not gonna. 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:30.600 That was a dude named Brody. This guy floats, yeah, 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:34.920 floats through the air. The vertical jump unbelievable. 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.040 Well, but I would expect that from like a skinnier 0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:40.280 wide receiver type, you know where you're like, oh, you 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:42.800 might have played basketball too, but this dude is a 0:23:42.840 --> 0:23:46.840 defensive end. You know, our our two hundred and fifty 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.480 pounds and yeah, like my my jump to get on 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:52.320 that box has a lot to do with how high 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:55.040 I can get my feet up, right, Like I got 0:23:55.080 --> 0:23:56.679 to get up in the air and just lift my 0:23:56.680 --> 0:23:57.200 feet up. 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:01.040 In the same possible He took off exactly when you. 0:24:01.400 --> 0:24:04.160 Jump, there's like the jump and then you actually watch 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:09.679 the actual part of I guess the vertical propulsion. Just 0:24:09.720 --> 0:24:10.960 floated six inches. 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:13.200 It was funny too, is even like I'm not dogging 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.640 at you because you did good, but when you maxed out, 0:24:16.200 --> 0:24:19.040 he was still like coming down on the match. He 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:22.280 was approaching the mat from he was approaching the platform 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:23.840 from above, like as. 0:24:23.680 --> 0:24:26.960 The dropped yeah, he had an easy six to ten 0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:29.520 inches to go until he was gonna max. It was 0:24:29.520 --> 0:24:31.639 funny because every we want to push him to the max, 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:32.600 but the coach is, like. 0:24:33.080 --> 0:24:33.600 I did that. 0:24:33.720 --> 0:24:37.000 We don't need to get anybody injured today. This is 0:24:37.080 --> 0:24:37.560 fun enough. 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:38.680 That was neat though. 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:40.879 What I what I did for my tournament is I 0:24:40.920 --> 0:24:43.679 did a lot of pre research and I asked around 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:45.800 what position is least likely to be able to do 0:24:45.840 --> 0:24:47.800 a lot of pull ups? And I kept getting the 0:24:47.800 --> 0:24:51.520 same answer, no. 0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:53.679 Like nose, like the guys that. 0:24:55.840 --> 0:24:57.119 Offensive line defense. 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:00.320 And everybody said, I wouldn't talk to the to the 0:25:00.359 --> 0:25:02.480 guys that are you know, the three hundred plus guys. 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:04.879 So I took on one of them and pull. 0:25:04.800 --> 0:25:08.680 Ups, and honestly, you only invested him by one. And 0:25:09.119 --> 0:25:12.480 I was surprised. I mean that kild put up almost 0:25:12.560 --> 0:25:15.240 ten pull ups with I mean, think about it, you 0:25:15.320 --> 0:25:17.159 only got to pull up one hundred and forty pounds. 0:25:17.160 --> 0:25:20.000 He's pulling up three hundred pounds. Yeah. 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:26.320 Uh, But did I did best him? He used a 0:25:26.320 --> 0:25:30.960 different grip. I noticed I did the traditional he did 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:32.280 the like. I don't know. 0:25:32.520 --> 0:25:34.520 I think it's because he had so much bulk in 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:36.960 his arms. And shoulders. He was pretty limited to where 0:25:36.960 --> 0:25:38.240 he could grab the bar Steve. 0:25:39.359 --> 0:25:40.919 I don't know. I wonder if I could do more 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:41.600 or less of that. 0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:45.000 Great well, so probably averages out he did like he did, 0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:46.680 like shooting, like he was shooting pistols. 0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.120 Shooting two pistols straight users at home. 0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:52.119 Yeah, which is the thing we do a lot is 0:25:52.200 --> 0:25:57.000 two pistols straight up in the sky. 0:25:57.920 --> 0:25:58.879 I start my morning. 0:25:59.000 --> 0:26:01.280 Okay, got handed over to Brody for a newsflash. This 0:26:01.359 --> 0:26:05.680 is Brody's favorite subject. Back to Colorado, Brody's favorite subject, 0:26:05.760 --> 0:26:07.520 his favorite two subjects come together. 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:09.440 Yeah, Colorado and wolves. 0:26:09.520 --> 0:26:09.760 Yep. 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:12.560 Oh, I'm waiting. 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:15.320 Well on the second one. 0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:17.400 On the wolves, I don't know. 0:26:17.480 --> 0:26:17.919 We got a. 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:20.280 Gaither way. 0:26:20.680 --> 0:26:21.560 We touched on this. 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:22.320 A Colorado. 0:26:22.400 --> 0:26:24.560 It's a Colorado two for Colorado. 0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:27.639 A couple of years ago or whenever, had a ballot 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:32.640 initiative to reintroduce wolves that it passed, and the Governor 0:26:32.640 --> 0:26:36.800 of Colorado kind of mandated that they would have wolves 0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:40.240 on the ground in Colorado by December of twenty three. 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:41.760 No, you're aware that it's Colorado. 0:26:42.640 --> 0:26:49.840 It's Colorado Wrecking Mountain, So Colorado. A month from when 0:26:49.880 --> 0:26:53.640 this podcast airs, like there were supposed to have been 0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:57.320 wolves on the ground in Colorado. The problem is they 0:26:57.320 --> 0:26:59.320 can't get wolves anywhere. 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:02.120 Can we can? We introduced the other wrinkle. But there 0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:03.280 are wolves, Yeah. 0:27:03.119 --> 0:27:04.160 There exactly. 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:07.119 Yeah, not only are there wolves, but there's wolves that 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:11.320 are reproducing within the state of Colorado, which Colorada. 0:27:11.600 --> 0:27:13.840 Yeah that's not true, that's not certain. 0:27:13.960 --> 0:27:17.680 Well, some of them got killed because they were wandering 0:27:17.720 --> 0:27:20.479 back and forth from Colorado to Wyoming. 0:27:20.520 --> 0:27:21.360 Got killed in Wyoming. 0:27:21.600 --> 0:27:23.960 Yeah, as soon as they crossed the border capal. 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:27.440 By Colorado's with out of state. 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:31.280 I don't know, I don't know, but yeah, there are 0:27:31.280 --> 0:27:33.040 wolves that made their way in naturally. 0:27:33.960 --> 0:27:34.680 But doesn't matter. 0:27:34.720 --> 0:27:37.320 They're still going to reintroduce them, but they just don't 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:42.280 have any Montana, Wyoming, Idahol, we're all like a hard no, 0:27:42.600 --> 0:27:44.159 They're like, we're not going to help you put more 0:27:44.200 --> 0:27:48.480 wolves on the ground because of what I mean, it 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:53.920 could be a political thing, like like demographically politically, those 0:27:53.920 --> 0:27:56.679 three states are much different from Colorado's and. 0:27:56.760 --> 0:28:00.000 Minst Wyoming saying no and Oregon saying no. Field very 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:00.640 different to me. 0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:05.080 Sure, I like the Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho, like I 0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:09.240 think are just like we're just not interested not participating. Yes, 0:28:09.359 --> 0:28:15.520 Oregon hasn't really given a reason why. Washington is like, man, 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:18.200 we're kind of interested, but it's just not the right 0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:22.359 time because the best time to trap wolves is later 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:24.560 in the winter. So if we're going to help you, 0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.000 you're not getting these wolves until later, and then you'll 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:30.960 have to introduce them in your state later. So right 0:28:31.000 --> 0:28:34.320 now it's not looking great, like there's no way they're 0:28:34.320 --> 0:28:36.080 going to get them on the ground in a month. 0:28:36.200 --> 0:28:38.760 Let me crystal ball this for you. This is not 0:28:38.840 --> 0:28:39.400 an issue. 0:28:40.880 --> 0:28:44.920 What do you mean it's not an issue though, them. 0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:47.840 Not getting wolves is not like actually a long term problem. 0:28:47.880 --> 0:28:49.960 No, No, they'll get know what I'm talking about. 0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:50.479 I just know. 0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:54.880 I think they'll get them from Washington eventually, but it's 0:28:54.920 --> 0:28:57.320 just not going to happen on the timeline they want. 0:28:57.360 --> 0:29:00.880 It's an interesting wrinkle, yeah, but this is not like 0:29:00.960 --> 0:29:01.280 this is. 0:29:01.920 --> 0:29:04.800 You don't think it's mildly interesting that for months they 0:29:04.800 --> 0:29:07.600 haven't been like they're like, we want wolves and nobody's 0:29:07.640 --> 0:29:08.240 given them to them. 0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.000 It would become more interesting to me if someone from 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:13.560 each of these states who made that decision would say 0:29:13.560 --> 0:29:14.840 why I made that decision. 0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:19.880 I mean from MFWP just said, we are not interested 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:27.600 in participating in this process cause I don't know, you'll 0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:30.120 have to infer. I think it's because they don't want 0:29:30.160 --> 0:29:33.080 to be held responsible for putting more wolves on the ground. 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:40.080 Like when Colorado's wolf population explodes five years from now 0:29:40.280 --> 0:29:41.960 and they're like, where did these wolves come from? And 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:43.800 they're like, why the hell did you get those. 0:29:43.600 --> 0:29:45.000 Super wolves from Montana? 0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:48.719 Yeah, and Canada is not even on the It was 0:29:48.760 --> 0:29:49.800 never even an option. 0:29:50.760 --> 0:29:52.080 Why is Canada not an option? 0:29:52.280 --> 0:29:54.480 I don't know. Maybe they don't want those big bad 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:55.280 super wolves. 0:29:56.920 --> 0:29:59.360 Well about an option to who to Colorado? 0:29:59.400 --> 0:30:03.680 They haven't even like Canada is not playing ball in Colorado, hasn't. 0:30:03.440 --> 0:30:06.400 Went Minnesota, Wisconsin, in Michigan. 0:30:06.640 --> 0:30:10.640 Because of the far maybe because of the different type 0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:12.280 what type of wolf? 0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:13.760 You know? 0:30:14.280 --> 0:30:16.600 Those wolves don't know what elk are, don't know what 0:30:16.760 --> 0:30:19.520 mountains are. Maybe it's like got something to do with that. 0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:20.200 I don't know. 0:30:22.520 --> 0:30:24.280 I feel like they'd figured it out pretty quick. 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:28.160 Here's my take. It's unchanging. 0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:32.120 Uh. 0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:34.880 I like I think that all the animals. 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:37.120 That are from somewhere should be able to be there, 0:30:37.800 --> 0:30:42.160 but they should be I just really lean towards state management. 0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:47.120 Yeah, well, we'll see what happens eventually, maybe they will 0:30:47.160 --> 0:30:51.600 be managed by the state. Okay, guys, we just wanted 0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:54.960 to give you a quick update since there was a 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:58.160 lag time between when this podcast was recorded and when 0:30:58.200 --> 0:31:01.800 it's going to air, and in that time, it turns 0:31:01.840 --> 0:31:05.440 out that Colorado found a source for wolves, which is 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:09.160 a state of Oregon which has agreed to supply ten 0:31:09.280 --> 0:31:14.280 wolves to Colorado that will then be reintroduced in Colorado. 0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.680 It looks like they're probably in the process right now 0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:22.720 of capturing those wolves and then they'll bring them to Colorado, 0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:26.240 check them for disease, injury, stuff like that, throw a 0:31:26.320 --> 0:31:28.840 radio collar on them, let them acclimate, and then they're 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:34.080 going to plan on reintroducing those wolves around veil Asspen 0:31:34.520 --> 0:31:37.600 gunn Us In. They're not being too specific about the 0:31:37.640 --> 0:31:40.800 area they're going to release them in, but it's gonna happen, 0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:43.959 and we just wanted to keep you guys updated that 0:31:44.000 --> 0:31:46.080 there had been a change in what we had just 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:47.120 talked about. 0:31:49.040 --> 0:31:52.160 Moving on, This one's serious. 0:31:52.280 --> 0:31:55.520 This one is serious. It's the reason we're talking about 0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:59.680 it because it's another kind of ballot box example of 0:32:00.040 --> 0:32:01.000 wildlife management. 0:32:01.080 --> 0:32:03.200 I think this one's more This in my mind, is 0:32:03.240 --> 0:32:04.520 more serious than the other issues. 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:09.720 Oh for sure, especially if if you're a hunter. The 0:32:11.640 --> 0:32:15.320 kind of the same group of people that probably may 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.440 have been involved in getting wolves back in Colorado or 0:32:18.720 --> 0:32:21.200 who knows, maybe I'm maybe that's not correct. 0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:24.520 Anyway, it's the people from the Whole Foods parking lot. 0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:28.160 Yes, and they tend to travel these they travel around 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:28.719 the West. 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:30.880 That's where these signatures get collected. 0:32:31.080 --> 0:32:32.720 Yes, they travel around the West a. 0:32:32.680 --> 0:32:35.080 Lot, farmers markets, Whole Foods parking lots. 0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:38.080 There's now a proposal, well it's not a proposal, it's 0:32:38.160 --> 0:32:41.320 it's in the works. They're they're getting signatures and they're 0:32:41.320 --> 0:32:44.200 hoping to get enough signatures to get a ban of 0:32:44.280 --> 0:32:48.680 mountain lion and bobcat hunting. Get that on the ballot 0:32:48.920 --> 0:32:51.560 in Colorado and they'll get I think they need like 0:32:51.680 --> 0:32:56.080 roughly one hundred and twenty four thousand signatures. Yeah, which 0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:57.000 is like not a problem. 0:32:57.440 --> 0:32:59.760 It's going on. Listen, it's gonna be on unless there's 0:32:59.760 --> 0:33:02.120 some issue. It's going to be on the ballot. 0:33:02.160 --> 0:33:06.600 It will be And Colorado is now like the kind 0:33:06.640 --> 0:33:10.680 of place where people got to pay attention because it 0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:14.320 could like it could get banned in Colorado. 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:17.680 Like these ballad initias. I mean, ballad initiais cut both 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:21.920 ways right, like right to hunt and fish stuff. I 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:23.360 don't know, I don't know if one of those. Yeah, 0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:26.320 those have come to ballad initis and baald initias don't 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:28.600 always win. Like when they try to do a ballad, 0:33:29.320 --> 0:33:31.880 what it is is basically like it's special interest groups. 0:33:32.840 --> 0:33:35.760 They don't even mean that in a negative way, because 0:33:35.800 --> 0:33:37.640 you have special interest groups on both sides. 0:33:38.240 --> 0:33:39.440 A special interest. 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:43.080 Group will want to bypass the normal channels of lawmaking, 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:46.040 in this case, bypass how wildlife gets normally managed. 0:33:46.200 --> 0:33:50.040 Often probably because they've already tried numerous times to go 0:33:50.080 --> 0:33:52.520 through the legislative process and it hasn't. 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:53.960 Worked, And they go, well, I'm going to take it 0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:57.880 to the voters yep. And then you in order to 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:00.000 get it on the ballot, has to enjoy a certain 0:34:00.120 --> 0:34:02.800 level of popular support. So you write a really cock 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:06.760 eyed because you can't write the ballot cock eyed, but 0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:10.000 you can write the petition cock eye. Sure, so you 0:34:10.000 --> 0:34:12.520 write a cock eyed petition with all kinds of like 0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:14.319 trigger words and stuff like that. 0:34:14.520 --> 0:34:16.799 Signs or in a case like this, it's just gonna 0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:22.840 be too fuzzy slightly spotted kittens, doowe eyed mountain lion kittens? 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:23.080 Yeah? 0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:27.319 Sure, saying do you think people can kill me? 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:28.919 They've gone, So are you going to go as far 0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:32.840 as to say, like what they're how they're actually the 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:36.680 trophy and then the animals that are included under this 0:34:36.840 --> 0:34:42.719 trophy hunting ban, you can go ahead, Well, they're they're 0:34:43.280 --> 0:34:45.600 they've listed in they're going to try to ban all 0:34:45.680 --> 0:34:49.279 trophy hunting. And then they're what they're what they're doing 0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:52.399 with their messaging is they're defining what trophy hunting is 0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:59.560 by saying that it's mountain lions, bobcats, and links. Yeah, anyways, 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:02.160 exact it's a federally protected species. 0:35:02.320 --> 0:35:02.480 Right. 0:35:02.600 --> 0:35:05.520 But again, like what you're saying is in this initial messaging, 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:10.400 the petition, the propaganda, they don't you don't have to 0:35:10.480 --> 0:35:11.439 talk in fast. 0:35:11.520 --> 0:35:11.719 Yeah. 0:35:11.719 --> 0:35:14.400 They did the same thing in Arizona with jaguars, Like 0:35:14.440 --> 0:35:16.280 they added jaguars onto the list. 0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:17.720 Yeah, because it tricks people. 0:35:17.840 --> 0:35:20.000 Yeah, that way, some dude going in there to get 0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:22.680 some dude going in there to get his uh, you know, 0:35:23.000 --> 0:35:27.560 his his hamburger and his Sabbi P's and his hamburger 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:29.960 at whole foods. I imagine you probably get a lot 0:35:29.960 --> 0:35:31.680 of you know, what's the place that does like the 0:35:31.719 --> 0:35:34.160 old timey posters, they sell a lot of junk food. 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:35.440 Trader Joe's. 0:35:35.440 --> 0:35:37.840 You probably get a lot of signatures outside of Trader Joe's. 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:42.239 So anyways, you're going there and someone's like, oh my, 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:47.560 you know, goodness, good lord, they're gonna hunt jaguars. I 0:35:47.640 --> 0:35:53.440 better sign this petition, not knowing that that's an impossibility. Yeah. 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:57.440 Yeah, And and there the trophy huntings are saying, well, 0:35:57.640 --> 0:35:59.520 you got You're only out there killing it for its 0:35:59.600 --> 0:36:01.880 hide or for its head, or for this trophy, so 0:36:02.040 --> 0:36:02.640 you can you. 0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:04.360 Know, get what about cash money? 0:36:06.080 --> 0:36:06.359 I don't. 0:36:06.520 --> 0:36:08.480 I don't know if that's in the in the wording, 0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:12.759 but uh again that's illegal, like in the state of 0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:16.200 Colorado that meat has to be processed for human consumption 0:36:16.440 --> 0:36:17.960 on what on a mountain lion? 0:36:18.280 --> 0:36:18.759 Yeah it does. 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:21.560 Yeah, so they got a salvage requirement. 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:24.480 I don't think I'm bobcast, but lions for sure. 0:36:24.560 --> 0:36:25.120 I like that. 0:36:26.880 --> 0:36:28.160 I like those I like those rules. 0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.400 But yeah, Colorado like has a history of this, like 0:36:31.480 --> 0:36:33.920 going back to the nineties. That's how they lost trapping 0:36:34.160 --> 0:36:38.520 trapping leg holding killed spring bear spring bear hound bear 0:36:38.719 --> 0:36:40.719 like and now it was eighty years ago. Like, the 0:36:40.760 --> 0:36:43.680 demographics in that state have changed a lot in thirty years. 0:36:43.719 --> 0:36:46.640 So you know, it doesn't take a whole lot of 0:36:46.719 --> 0:36:50.960 voters in Denver and Boulder and Fort Collins to kind 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:55.680 of skew how the vote goes statewide. You know, like 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:58.480 if if this was proposed in Wyoming, would be dead 0:36:58.520 --> 0:36:59.040 on arrival. 0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:00.719 I remember someone with the trapping thing. 0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:04.880 Someone remember someone saying the minute the population of the 0:37:04.880 --> 0:37:09.680 greater Denver area surpassed the population of the state, trapping 0:37:09.800 --> 0:37:15.600 was gone. Yeah, yeah, I know that wouldn't surprise city slickers. Yep. 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:18.120 So they're back at it again in Colorado. 0:37:18.200 --> 0:37:19.920 But you guys can beat if you're in Colorado, you 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:22.719 can beat this. They beat it in Maine. They beat 0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:26.040 the bear band in band in Maine. In Montana, we 0:37:26.200 --> 0:37:29.920 soundly beated a public land trapping band on the ballot 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:30.920 seventy percent. 0:37:32.640 --> 0:37:36.360 The same thing in Arizona got beat. Yeah, within the 0:37:36.440 --> 0:37:37.080 last couple of years. 0:37:37.120 --> 0:37:41.759 But in the end, when when in the future, in 0:37:41.800 --> 0:37:45.480 one hundred years, when hunting is largely done in California, 0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:48.160 not even one hundred years, twenty five years, when hunting 0:37:48.200 --> 0:37:54.239 is done in California, done in Washington, done in Colorado. 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:58.719 It'll be because of the it'll because of ballots, and 0:37:58.719 --> 0:38:00.760 then you'll have then it'll it'll be like a different 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:04.160 land will be completely different vigilanti landscape. Can we talk 0:38:04.160 --> 0:38:05.000 about this with the game warden? 0:38:05.080 --> 0:38:07.120 Do we talk? Can we talk a little bit about 0:38:07.160 --> 0:38:10.440 like what what we can do about this? 0:38:10.800 --> 0:38:12.520 Yeah? But can I first tell you, well, yeah, you 0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:14.080 talk about that. Then I want to talk about a 0:38:14.080 --> 0:38:16.080 correlation I've found with the. 0:38:17.600 --> 0:38:18.759 Let's soon throw this out there. 0:38:19.960 --> 0:38:23.719 I have found it's your podcast, Go ahead, there's a 0:38:23.760 --> 0:38:30.920 correlation between the state's readiness to embrace legal weed. There 0:38:31.000 --> 0:38:38.439 we discussed show a state's readiness to embrace legal weed 0:38:38.520 --> 0:38:40.520 and its readiness to ban hunting practices. 0:38:40.560 --> 0:38:41.399 It is not true. 0:38:41.440 --> 0:38:45.080 We need to We need a very strong correlation. We 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:47.280 need to ask of the Mississippi. 0:38:47.800 --> 0:38:49.759 You know that weeds legal in Montana, right, but it 0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:53.280 was slow to embrace it state. 0:38:54.760 --> 0:39:01.719 It's quick, No, Steve, you've time in Alaska, right, That's 0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:02.279 what I told. 0:39:03.680 --> 0:39:05.400 That's because that's where I grew up. 0:39:05.480 --> 0:39:09.120 And you know, my parents had a greenhouse for vegetablesuse 0:39:09.160 --> 0:39:10.000 for other. 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.839 Vative get a list of the states and make a 0:39:16.840 --> 0:39:18.440 real comparison. 0:39:21.160 --> 0:39:24.239 Of Spencer's statistics. People that help them out with the 0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.439 stats for the trivia. Well, I'm hoping right now they're 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:31.200 already working on this to to come back and make 0:39:31.400 --> 0:39:32.560 not to show you correlation. 0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:34.200 You want to know two things I was wrong about 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:36.680 that I was convinced I was right about I was 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:39.600 wrong only two, So there I was. I thought that 0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:43.279 conservatives were less likely to believe in ghosts. In fact, 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:45.640 they're more likely to believe in ghosts. I thought that 0:39:45.760 --> 0:39:49.840 conservatives were less likely to have gluten intolerance, but in 0:39:49.880 --> 0:39:51.359 fact it's like a statistical walk. 0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:54.520 That one is strange to me, very the gluten thing. 0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:59.040 And I think that people because here's my theory, hunters 0:39:59.080 --> 0:40:01.440 don't mind hiding the book. It's a big part of 0:40:01.520 --> 0:40:04.200 hunt it, so they don't mind sneaking off in the 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:11.319 bushes to to you know, indulge, moving on. 0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:17.600 Go on, it's a half baked know what you can do? 0:40:17.719 --> 0:40:23.000 Part is is the takeaway here Gang pasion. 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:24.600 Probably cut all that out because the more I think 0:40:24.600 --> 0:40:25.719 about it, I might not be right. 0:40:26.000 --> 0:40:39.080 Okay, looking at that point, uh yeah, and this, uh, 0:40:39.160 --> 0:40:41.560 there's a lot to be to be said here, but 0:40:41.800 --> 0:40:44.920 it I think if it's left only up to the 0:40:45.000 --> 0:40:49.880 people that participate in hound hunting in Colorado, uh, it's 0:40:51.040 --> 0:40:54.279 it's a lost battle now, right, Like everybody's gonna have 0:40:54.320 --> 0:40:58.560 to chip in. And to me, I think the best 0:40:58.600 --> 0:41:01.280 way that we can do it is we you can't 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:05.960 shrug off or or be flippant in conversations with non hunters. 0:41:06.000 --> 0:41:10.560 The same way that the the opposition is now swaying 0:41:10.680 --> 0:41:13.640 that middle eighty percent that's going to decide this vote 0:41:14.320 --> 0:41:17.560 in their direction. We have to be out there talking 0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:22.480 and messaging and talking to people about that it's not 0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:26.239 trophy hunting and all the good things that are associated 0:41:26.239 --> 0:41:28.640 with this thing that they're trying to take away, and 0:41:28.719 --> 0:41:31.719 explain to them about the rules and regulations that go 0:41:31.840 --> 0:41:33.680 into it, you know, explain to them that the meat 0:41:33.760 --> 0:41:37.200 has to be uh, you know, prepared for human consumption, 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:40.440 et cetera, et cetera. And I think once if you can, 0:41:40.520 --> 0:41:42.439 I always tell the story I've told it multiple times 0:41:42.440 --> 0:41:49.560 on this podcast about my aunt, who very liberal, very hippie. 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:52.720 She chants every morning with her windows open. 0:41:52.840 --> 0:41:53.600 I mean, she just. 0:41:53.600 --> 0:41:58.719 She'll rather pot person. She's not a pot smoker, but 0:41:58.960 --> 0:42:02.560 she would rather escort ants out of her kitchen then 0:42:02.640 --> 0:42:03.399 stomp on them. 0:42:03.480 --> 0:42:03.640 Right. 0:42:03.840 --> 0:42:08.600 She's really like one with with all living things. She 0:42:08.760 --> 0:42:11.640 was not into hunting and not a supporter of hunting, 0:42:11.680 --> 0:42:14.640 maybe even anti hunter until I became of the age 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:17.319 and old enough to and she knew that I got 0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:20.279 that far into it, and we would have conversations and 0:42:20.280 --> 0:42:22.799 I would explain to her what hunting was to me, 0:42:22.960 --> 0:42:25.239 how I did it, how I went about it, and 0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:28.160 that completely flipped her. And I can guarantee you right now, 0:42:28.239 --> 0:42:30.720 if she's in a room of people and there's someone 0:42:30.800 --> 0:42:35.080 talking bad about hunting, she will step in and on 0:42:35.200 --> 0:42:39.440 our behalf speak positively about hunting and say that that 0:42:39.480 --> 0:42:42.360 what that person is saying might not be exactly true 0:42:42.400 --> 0:42:43.960 and you might want to look into it farther. And 0:42:44.000 --> 0:42:46.000 that just comes from having conversations. 0:42:46.080 --> 0:42:49.759 So I think you gotta like have that same conversation 0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:53.520 around like hound hunting and lines with some hunters too, 0:42:53.880 --> 0:42:56.880 because they're hunters who are like, well, it's not really fair, 0:42:57.160 --> 0:42:59.880 you know. You see that a lot yep. 0:42:59.640 --> 0:43:02.440 From Yeah, and I remember what the public land trapping 0:43:02.520 --> 0:43:07.320 thing here. I heard from multiple people who were upland 0:43:07.320 --> 0:43:12.239 bird hunters right who were pro trap band. They thought 0:43:12.280 --> 0:43:17.160 it was beneficial to them, and uh, and just not 0:43:17.400 --> 0:43:20.839 seeing the big picture about like do you honestly think 0:43:20.880 --> 0:43:25.760 you're you're immune from this if you dogs? Yeah, chase 0:43:25.880 --> 0:43:26.760 down birds. 0:43:27.000 --> 0:43:27.920 Yeah it's weird. 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:31.520 Yeah, right, what does that sound familiar too? 0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:35.719 Yeah? It's like yeah, and it and it's funny because 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:38.680 people love dogs most of the time, right, Like everybody 0:43:38.719 --> 0:43:41.600 loves dogs. But I spoke with a game warn yesterday 0:43:41.680 --> 0:43:46.080 from Colorado off the record, and he's like, look, even 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:49.200 in our agency, there's people that you know in their 0:43:49.239 --> 0:43:51.359 game warns and you'll be able to speak to this 0:43:51.400 --> 0:43:53.680 to how it is set up here. But there's they 0:43:53.719 --> 0:43:57.040 really they split it up between I think like education, research, 0:43:57.200 --> 0:43:59.920 and law enforcement, their game warns do all three that 0:44:01.200 --> 0:44:04.000 you know what they have to do. And so to 0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:06.319 what he was saying is like it even if you 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:10.520 don't think it's ethically or personally, you don't believe that, 0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:12.680 you know, hunting lions with hounds. 0:44:12.440 --> 0:44:13.200 Is the right thing to do. 0:44:13.280 --> 0:44:18.120 It is a tool in the game management officers or 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:22.000 warden's toolbox, and when you take it away, it limits 0:44:22.080 --> 0:44:26.680 how they can you know, manage it, right, And I 0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:29.520 mean it just compounds because now that they don't have 0:44:29.640 --> 0:44:32.879 that tool, those animals still have to be managed. They're 0:44:32.920 --> 0:44:35.239 still going to have to be dealt with. And he's like, 0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:37.759 you know what's worse getting you know, killed by a 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:39.920 person out there hunting, or when you get caught in 0:44:39.960 --> 0:44:42.680 a live trap and then some person walks up to 0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:45.520 you and that. And he's like, they're always thrashing around 0:44:45.520 --> 0:44:48.080 in that live trap right before we have to, you know, 0:44:48.200 --> 0:44:50.360 put one in their head. Or sometimes it's so wild 0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:54.480 they have to actually dart them first and then euthanize them, 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:56.400 which he said, which is a bummer because I can't 0:44:56.719 --> 0:44:59.759 then donate the meat the meat is drugged up, right, 0:45:00.280 --> 0:45:03.920 But it's uh, you know, I think that people are 0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:06.560 easily swayed here because they think it's gonna be better 0:45:06.600 --> 0:45:10.600 for the animals somehow, but it never is. It's never 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:13.920 gonna be better for these animals when they can't be 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:16.560 hunted and the hunting can't be used as the manager. 0:45:16.600 --> 0:45:19.000 There's still gonna be a bunch of lethal control, more 0:45:19.040 --> 0:45:21.640 onlines than bobcasts. But for sure, the thing I would 0:45:21.640 --> 0:45:26.480 point out is we're talking about stable We're talking about stable, 0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:29.280 regulated wildlife populations. 0:45:30.160 --> 0:45:33.879 And It's definitely true. Agencies use hunting as a management tool, 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:39.040 so whether the harvest is trapping or hunting, it's a 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:41.920 huge part of the management tool to manage the population, 0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:44.759 to deal with conflicts and things. And if, as as 0:45:44.840 --> 0:45:47.719 Yanni said, if you take that tool away, then that 0:45:47.760 --> 0:45:50.440 burden usually goes onto the agency, and so a lot 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:53.560 more you'll see a lot more agency removals if hunting 0:45:53.640 --> 0:45:54.280 isn't an option. 0:45:54.640 --> 0:45:56.920 Now, how do you feel qualified to weigh in on 0:45:56.960 --> 0:45:58.200 something like that, Adam. 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:03.200 Well, I've been a game warden for a while, a 0:46:03.200 --> 0:46:06.400 dozen years or so, and in charge of a lot 0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:08.920 of management decisions in southwest Montana. 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:10.840 So let's back up to how you got in the biz, 0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:11.759 How I got. 0:46:11.680 --> 0:46:13.920 In the business? How far back you want to go? 0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:16.160 Born in Fairbanks, correct. 0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:20.799 Born in Fairbanks, Alaska, So you know, you know, as 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:24.680 a kid, scale is different than an adult. And so 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:28.080 we lived on what my dad called a homestead outside 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:31.040 of Fairbanks, Alaska, no running water, no electricity for a 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:33.400 good part of my life, and I felt I was 0:46:33.440 --> 0:46:35.799 way back in the bush. And we went into town 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:40.440 once once a week for church, laundry, groceries, maybe the 0:46:40.480 --> 0:46:42.680 Sizzler or something like that, you know, in town, go 0:46:42.680 --> 0:46:46.200 out to the restaurant. But since going back there, it's 0:46:46.280 --> 0:46:48.160 not as far out as I remember. 0:46:48.120 --> 0:46:50.799 It may be a way out there just I remember, well, 0:46:50.880 --> 0:46:52.640 town might have crept up on it a little bit. 0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:55.000 It's very true, you know, in the you know, roads 0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:59.759 in Alaska have varying degrees of reliability or condition. And 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:02.759 Dad drove an old nineteen fifties pickup and I just 0:47:02.920 --> 0:47:06.200 remember always falling asleep on the way into town and 0:47:06.239 --> 0:47:08.839 just thinking that town is brutal. But being back up 0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:13.040 there recently, it's a pretty quick drive into town. So, yeah, 0:47:13.040 --> 0:47:17.400 I grew up in rural Alaska, in the heart of 0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:18.360 the state. 0:47:19.600 --> 0:47:22.040 Was it something that your dad your dad trap but 0:47:22.120 --> 0:47:23.600 wouldn't didn't eat game or something. 0:47:23.760 --> 0:47:26.480 He did do some trapping. He was huge into furs 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:29.279 and just making things out of first. He just just 0:47:29.400 --> 0:47:33.040 loved doing stuff with his hands and being able to 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:38.080 make things from scratch. You know, he definitely viewed that 0:47:38.200 --> 0:47:41.759 man was he was here to kind of be the 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:45.200 shepherd of wildlife or the shepherd of the natural world 0:47:45.280 --> 0:47:49.319 and resources. You know, we had fur hats and all 0:47:49.360 --> 0:47:51.239 sorts of stuff that he'd make. But he was a 0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:56.600 staunch vegetarian. Regally, he did not eat meat. You know, 0:47:56.680 --> 0:47:58.719 every once in a while he'd eat some wild game 0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:02.120 that someone brought over and stuff, but he didn't hunt. Uh. 0:48:02.880 --> 0:48:03.080 You know. 0:48:03.239 --> 0:48:06.440 One of our most common protein sources was a was 0:48:06.480 --> 0:48:10.480 a soy based hot dog called a linket. I don't 0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:13.640 know if you've ever seen those. Most stores have them. 0:48:13.680 --> 0:48:16.080 It's in the canned food section. I mean, just it. 0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:18.799 I don't I don't know how he ate him now. 0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:20.520 I don't really care for him, but as a kid, 0:48:20.640 --> 0:48:23.520 just just just absolutely loved him, and that was a 0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:24.880 common snack or protein. 0:48:24.920 --> 0:48:28.239 So did he trap the stuff that he used to 0:48:28.320 --> 0:48:28.719 make the. 0:48:29.120 --> 0:48:31.680 It's it's a mix, yeah, yeah, something, But he never 0:48:31.760 --> 0:48:34.239 would consume no, the meat from what he trapped. Nope, 0:48:34.239 --> 0:48:37.600 didn't consume any meat. You know, just hated go into 0:48:37.640 --> 0:48:40.759 restaurants with them because there was always some sort of 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:44.359 battle with the server over them not having good vegetarian 0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:49.239 dish options. Is this my meat or my meal going 0:48:49.320 --> 0:48:51.200 to be cooked on the same pan that you know 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:54.879 that guy's getting a steak one. My mom would later 0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:57.319 tell me stories of her sneaking off to McDonald's in 0:48:57.360 --> 0:49:01.000 town because she wanted meat like to consume meat. You know, 0:49:01.080 --> 0:49:04.319 she's definitely a person who likes her steak bloody rare. 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:07.560 But she was married to my dad or with my dad, 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:12.080 who was a staunch vegetarian. Hey, you know, there's lots 0:49:12.120 --> 0:49:14.720 of things. I asked my dad on why he believed 0:49:14.760 --> 0:49:18.040 the things he did and never really explained him really 0:49:18.080 --> 0:49:20.680 well to me. So I can only guess. But you know, 0:49:20.719 --> 0:49:26.520 he'd eat fish though, but not not red meat. Definitely, No, 0:49:26.600 --> 0:49:28.600 he's not. Yeah, I passed away a couple of years ago. 0:49:28.719 --> 0:49:32.680 So yeah, So at what ages you go in the 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:33.760 law enforcement direction? 0:49:34.239 --> 0:49:40.640 Uh so, early twenties. So mom remarried. She married a 0:49:40.680 --> 0:49:43.480 guy worked on the pipeline up there, my stepdad who 0:49:43.520 --> 0:49:45.919 I called my dad, who really had a huge hand 0:49:45.920 --> 0:49:49.359 in raising me. He's a big game hunter in Alaska. 0:49:49.880 --> 0:49:53.799 We relocated later on to the midwest of Minnesota in 0:49:53.840 --> 0:49:57.520 my teenage years and because the pipeline work or what 0:49:58.200 --> 0:50:00.520 he was up in Alaska for pipeline whe He's from 0:50:00.520 --> 0:50:04.160 the midwest, North Dakota, Minnesota, ranching family and such. Moved 0:50:04.239 --> 0:50:06.520 up there with his brother for pipeline work and such, 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:10.799 and then met my mom. They they had a couple 0:50:10.840 --> 0:50:13.400 of kids, My my brothers who were half brothers, but 0:50:13.440 --> 0:50:16.200 I called my brothers and uh, they decided to move 0:50:16.280 --> 0:50:19.160 closer to his family moved to the Midwest. So I 0:50:19.200 --> 0:50:22.120 went to high school and in Minnesota went to college 0:50:22.160 --> 0:50:26.520 there too, really struggling with what I wanted to do 0:50:26.640 --> 0:50:30.680 for a profession. You know. I think my two dreams 0:50:30.719 --> 0:50:32.920 as a kid was either to get paid to snowmobile 0:50:33.000 --> 0:50:34.919 or get paid to play with legos. I think those 0:50:34.920 --> 0:50:37.759 were the two things that I just always dreamed of 0:50:37.840 --> 0:50:38.720 doing as a kid. 0:50:38.840 --> 0:50:39.399 And uh. 0:50:41.080 --> 0:50:45.200 Came out to Bozeman or West Yellowstone actually for snowmobill 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:48.600 vacation with my with my dad and grandpa and a 0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:51.760 few other friends in high school. And I remember seeing 0:50:51.800 --> 0:50:55.680 a Snowollville drive by that said law enforcement on it, 0:50:55.800 --> 0:50:56.600 and that was like. 0:50:56.600 --> 0:50:57.640 Way to go to crab. 0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:02.120 I could get paid to Snowmoville, know, and so I 0:51:02.160 --> 0:51:04.759 started thinking about it, but it took me a while 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:09.800 to achieve that goal. Went to college, struggled, changed majors 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:10.920 multiple times. 0:51:11.480 --> 0:51:11.680 You know. 0:51:11.719 --> 0:51:13.759 My first semester at MSU, I think I had a 0:51:13.800 --> 0:51:16.840 point seventy five GPA because I was skiing and fishing 0:51:16.920 --> 0:51:19.960 too much and just doing other things that that's like 0:51:20.840 --> 0:51:21.799 you think there was a w. 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:23.120 W D and an F. 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:24.799 Maybe that's hard to recover from. 0:51:24.920 --> 0:51:27.200 You want to start good and then then it's harder 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:27.879 to knock it down. 0:51:27.960 --> 0:51:32.479 Yeah, so and uh, you know, like I said, change 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:34.800 majors a bunch, And eventually I took a justice studies 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.799 class in college and I got an A. I went 0:51:38.880 --> 0:51:41.719 to class, I was engaged. I got an A and 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:44.480 I thought, maybe there's something to this. Maybe that because 0:51:44.560 --> 0:51:47.200 I'm into this, you know subject, maybe this is a 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:49.799 good profession for me. And that's some advice I give 0:51:49.880 --> 0:51:54.000 everybody who's struggling with with what what to pursue as 0:51:54.040 --> 0:51:57.399 a career. You know, I spent yesterday at MSU talking 0:51:57.440 --> 0:52:00.120 to a lot of perspective students and such and and 0:52:00.280 --> 0:52:03.040 just start exploring different subjects, and when you find one, 0:52:03.040 --> 0:52:05.680 all of a sudden, that becomes easy. You don't make 0:52:05.760 --> 0:52:09.080 excuses on whether or not you're going to class. You 0:52:09.239 --> 0:52:12.440 retain the information without studying too hard. Maybe that's a 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:15.720 subject for you to pursue. And for me, criminal justice 0:52:15.840 --> 0:52:20.920 was the first one. I never finished college early on, 0:52:21.840 --> 0:52:25.600 just got frustrated. I was living in Minneapolis at the time, 0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:28.960 going to school there. At the University of Minnesota, really 0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:33.279 struggling with living in Saint Paul, Minneapolis and just being 0:52:33.360 --> 0:52:36.399 in a big city. And one day I just kind 0:52:36.400 --> 0:52:38.480 of sat down and said to myself, if I could 0:52:38.760 --> 0:52:40.560 go anywhere and do anything, what would I do, And 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:43.640 was move back to Montana where the outdoor stuff that 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:48.480 I really loved was. So I wrote myself a written 0:52:48.640 --> 0:52:53.520 contract because I toyed with going into the military too, 0:52:53.680 --> 0:52:56.279 for direction, I wrote myself a written contract that said, 0:52:56.320 --> 0:52:59.600 you'll move to Montana, you'll get a job in law 0:52:59.680 --> 0:53:02.920 enforce within two years, or you'll join the Marines. And 0:53:03.120 --> 0:53:04.960 I pinned that up on the wall and. 0:53:05.040 --> 0:53:07.160 That was my plan, and you signed it, witnessed it. 0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:12.360 Oh yeah, So moved to Montana. The first law enforcement 0:53:12.440 --> 0:53:14.919 job I got was in a detention center. So worked 0:53:14.920 --> 0:53:17.480 as a detention officer there for just under a year. 0:53:17.600 --> 0:53:18.680 Oh was that tough man. 0:53:18.920 --> 0:53:23.120 It was different, pretty eye opening to societal problems and 0:53:24.160 --> 0:53:28.880 just people in general. You know, a wide variety of 0:53:29.000 --> 0:53:31.800 people that get arrested. You know, people make mistakes and 0:53:31.880 --> 0:53:35.360 people have bad intentions. So I was young, I was 0:53:35.440 --> 0:53:38.759 twenty one years old, you know, pretty green to the 0:53:38.840 --> 0:53:43.719 world and experience. It was eye opening, but it did 0:53:44.640 --> 0:53:48.560 further my interest in law enforcement. So a year into that, 0:53:48.719 --> 0:53:51.680 I got hired with a municipal police department. Worked there 0:53:51.719 --> 0:53:54.799 for seven years, did all sorts of things from drug 0:53:54.840 --> 0:54:01.520 task force work to traffic unit that was yep, that 0:54:01.640 --> 0:54:05.000 was here in Montana, and then just a couple things 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:09.120 started piling on. I never finished college, wanted to finish 0:54:09.200 --> 0:54:11.480 that didn't have a job where I got paid to 0:54:11.480 --> 0:54:14.839 snowmobill like I originally thought. You know, conservation was still 0:54:14.880 --> 0:54:18.640 really important to me, and I just city life was good, 0:54:18.719 --> 0:54:22.800 but I really wanted to just be outside, and so 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:25.759 went back to school. I was married then both my 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:29.400 wife and I went back to school together. She carried 0:54:29.480 --> 0:54:32.640 me through calculus and a couple other classes. She's definitely 0:54:32.840 --> 0:54:36.200 got the brains of the two of us. And then 0:54:37.400 --> 0:54:40.520 started working some conservation jobs while in college. So I 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:44.239 worked for the US Fish Wildlife Service doing upland game 0:54:44.280 --> 0:54:47.800 bird and waterfowl restoration work. Really ok, yeah, in the 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.680 midwest of Minnesota, because we'd moved back to Minnesota to 0:54:50.760 --> 0:54:54.680 go back to school, mostly because we had kids, and 0:54:55.280 --> 0:54:57.160 my parents were there and said they'd help if we 0:54:57.239 --> 0:54:58.160 want to go back to school. 0:54:58.200 --> 0:54:59.759 So it was nice to have that safety net. 0:55:00.640 --> 0:55:04.120 And yeah, then I worked as a wetland specialist for 0:55:04.239 --> 0:55:09.000 the NRCS delineating and classifying wetlands in South Dakota and 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:11.000 just kept wanting to get back to Montana. 0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:15.359 That had to have been a semi contentious gig. 0:55:16.920 --> 0:55:19.640 It was, so you know, the wetland job you're talking. 0:55:19.520 --> 0:55:20.839 About, Yeah, I mean when you got to go out 0:55:20.880 --> 0:55:23.719 and break the news definitely to someone who's like, well, 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:24.480 I'm going to drain all that. 0:55:24.680 --> 0:55:27.920 That's exactly was my role. So so you had agriculture 0:55:28.000 --> 0:55:31.440 producers at a time when corn and soybean prices were 0:55:31.520 --> 0:55:35.040 really high, but it was also wet, and so they're 0:55:35.120 --> 0:55:39.799 looking at putting more acreage into production. So they want 0:55:39.840 --> 0:55:43.239 to tile everything, tile, drain, and so there's an application 0:55:43.400 --> 0:55:47.040 process of regulatory process, and so myself and others would 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:50.479 go out and we'd we'd classify the wetlands by looking 0:55:50.560 --> 0:55:56.480 at historical data, aerial photography. We'd determine the hydrology, the 0:55:56.640 --> 0:55:57.360 soil type. 0:55:58.440 --> 0:56:01.960 We would uh the vegetation regime too, right. 0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:06.960 Yep, catalog the hydrophobic and hydrophilic plants, the invertebrates, and 0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:09.000 then there's a whole process that kind of take in 0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:13.080 all those circumstances into it gives you a determination of 0:56:13.120 --> 0:56:15.759 what kind of wetland it is. And then it then 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:18.440 whatever rules or what they may be allowed to do 0:56:18.560 --> 0:56:22.280 with it, drain it, til it or maybe leave it alone. 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:23.000 They can't touch it. 0:56:23.200 --> 0:56:25.040 I was on a property recently and they had that 0:56:25.200 --> 0:56:28.120 work had just been done. Yeah, and I'm surprised how 0:56:28.200 --> 0:56:31.200 like NAT's ass it was. I mean they had things 0:56:31.239 --> 0:56:36.239 size at his table, like contours, not things. It's not individuals, 0:56:36.320 --> 0:56:41.480 but the contour of the wetland was very precise. 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:45.440 Oh yeah, yeah. We used trimbles and rchis to go 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:47.840 out there by hand when we do the inspection. 0:56:47.560 --> 0:56:51.120 And because you want to get like a cross section 0:56:51.400 --> 0:56:54.480 strata layer and then you can see like how long 0:56:54.560 --> 0:56:57.400 this has been a wetland yep, and the changes that 0:56:57.480 --> 0:56:58.120 it's gone through. 0:56:58.239 --> 0:57:00.440 And well imagine people want to argue about it too, 0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:04.239 and they're gonna be like shit, right yesterday when I 0:57:04.320 --> 0:57:06.279 was a kid, that was a you know, dry as 0:57:06.280 --> 0:57:06.800 a desert. 0:57:07.000 --> 0:57:09.680 Well, and that's why the historical stuff came into effect. 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:12.200 You know, you'll go back through decades of aerial photography 0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:16.000 and compare that to weather data to see, you know, 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:18.960 if it was wet, you know, if it was still 0:57:19.000 --> 0:57:20.160 wet and dry years. 0:57:20.000 --> 0:57:21.440 And such like. Oh that's good. 0:57:21.560 --> 0:57:24.440 Yeah, it was a really interesting job. Really loved it. 0:57:25.200 --> 0:57:28.240 And then uh am I overblowing the contentious aspect of 0:57:28.320 --> 0:57:30.320 it was more Was it more cooperative? 0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:32.440 It was more cooperative for sure. I mean there was 0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:36.600 definitely instances where disagreements occurred, you know, where where a 0:57:36.680 --> 0:57:43.080 producer might uh challenge the determination. You know, sometimes it 0:57:43.160 --> 0:57:46.400 got overturned, sometimes it didn't. But it was a collaborative 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:48.680 effort between us and the producer. 0:57:49.120 --> 0:57:51.360 We hunted on it. We had hunting permission in Michigan's 0:57:51.400 --> 0:57:53.480 Upper Peninsula in a guy's place. Man, he got a 0:57:53.520 --> 0:57:55.400 bunch of trouble for draining and something he wasn't supposed 0:57:55.400 --> 0:57:58.640 to drain once and his name was Herb for something. 0:57:58.680 --> 0:58:02.840 We always called him Herb beside. But it wasn't even 0:58:02.840 --> 0:58:04.640 nervous that he just drained it. Yeah. 0:58:05.960 --> 0:58:08.560 Yeah, well, and you know, so that was that job 0:58:08.680 --> 0:58:11.000 led to the job I have now. So I started 0:58:11.040 --> 0:58:13.960 to miss law enforcement. You know, you guys were talking 0:58:14.000 --> 0:58:18.320 about the respectful, tight knit group of the football team 0:58:18.360 --> 0:58:21.280 you were interacting with last night. You know, I missed 0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:24.760 that brotherhood that law enforcement had, that group of people 0:58:24.800 --> 0:58:28.040 who are literally willing to sacrifice themselves for each other 0:58:29.440 --> 0:58:33.560 and and experience a lot of uh stress together. And 0:58:33.640 --> 0:58:36.240 when you experience stress together, you build bonds. You know, 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:38.320 you guys probably have experienced it out in the field. 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:41.760 The hunt goes perfectly correct, it's fun. But the ones 0:58:41.800 --> 0:58:44.640 that are really memorable the ones that go to crap 0:58:44.880 --> 0:58:48.200 basically and you you persevere and you you get through it. 0:58:48.920 --> 0:58:51.560 I missed that bond, missed that group of people, uh 0:58:51.680 --> 0:58:54.720 missed the law enforcement asset of public service, but wanted 0:58:54.760 --> 0:58:58.120 to stay in conservation and came out to Montana became 0:58:58.160 --> 0:58:58.960 a game warden here. 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:01.680 Is that pretty competitive at the time? 0:59:02.200 --> 0:59:03.640 It is? It still is? 0:59:03.840 --> 0:59:07.800 Yeah, you know, we we definitely get a decent amount 0:59:07.840 --> 0:59:12.160 of applicants, but we have vacancies every year, so we're 0:59:12.160 --> 0:59:17.560 always hiring. From what I've seen, people stay longer in 0:59:17.640 --> 0:59:20.480 this profession than maybe some other law enforcement profession. 0:59:20.720 --> 0:59:26.160 So is the flow does the flow normally go that 0:59:26.560 --> 0:59:30.640 people are in police work and go into game warden 0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:32.600 or is it like a two way two way door 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:35.640 or I've seen it go way you like, it's a 0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:37.480 goal from game warning to be like, man, I'm just 0:59:37.520 --> 0:59:40.040 going back and straight up, like highway patrol or whatever. 0:59:40.240 --> 0:59:43.760 Yeah, part of law enforcement is it's really hard to 0:59:43.840 --> 0:59:46.720 do to understand what it is until you're in it. 0:59:47.400 --> 0:59:48.840 And you know. 0:59:49.520 --> 0:59:51.640 Another piece of advice I give for people trying to 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:53.160 figure out their career and they come to me and say, 0:59:53.200 --> 0:59:54.880 I want to be a game warden. I tell them 0:59:54.920 --> 0:59:57.120 we'll get a degree and whatever. Your second choice is, 0:59:57.880 --> 1:00:01.440 get a degree in in don't get degree in criminal justice. 1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:04.040 You know, maybe get a degree in wildlife management. You're 1:00:04.080 --> 1:00:07.600 really interested in conservation. That way, if the law enforcement 1:00:07.680 --> 1:00:09.880 side doesn't work out for you, you have a backup 1:00:09.920 --> 1:00:12.120 plan and you're not now I have to go back 1:00:12.120 --> 1:00:14.200 to school because you don't know if it's a good 1:00:14.240 --> 1:00:17.480 fit for you until you try it. And we have 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:20.520 a decent amount of people wash out of training programs, 1:00:20.800 --> 1:00:22.920 and we have a lot of people who just decide, 1:00:22.960 --> 1:00:24.760 I just I just don't like this. I don't like 1:00:24.880 --> 1:00:27.680 being a referee for people's recreation and fun out there, 1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:29.959 and they decide to go into something else. 1:00:30.920 --> 1:00:34.480 That's interesting. Is that how a lot of people see it? 1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:36.880 Or is that Adam Pankraft's original. 1:00:39.320 --> 1:00:41.280 You know, my kids play a lot of high school sports, 1:00:41.320 --> 1:00:44.440 and I have a lot of empathy for the referees 1:00:44.480 --> 1:00:48.080 out there because I see connections for what they do 1:00:48.400 --> 1:00:51.840 to me. You're in the public eye, you're correcting people's 1:00:51.960 --> 1:00:55.080 fun and sometimes the correction and message you have. 1:00:55.200 --> 1:00:58.040 And rules you're deliver, you're a buzzkiller exactly, you know. 1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:02.000 So I have a lot of empathy for them, And 1:01:02.440 --> 1:01:05.240 I've asked a lot of people come to me who 1:01:05.360 --> 1:01:07.440 know sports, like, have you ever looked at a refereen 1:01:07.440 --> 1:01:09.320 and thought that looks like a cool job. If they 1:01:09.400 --> 1:01:12.240 say no, maybe my job isn't the right one for you. 1:01:12.320 --> 1:01:12.880 It depends. 1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:13.160 You know. 1:01:13.560 --> 1:01:15.240 That's not all we do, but it's a part. And 1:01:15.280 --> 1:01:17.160 you have to have that ability to be able to 1:01:17.240 --> 1:01:19.760 go into a group of people at a phishing access 1:01:19.800 --> 1:01:21.640 site and tell them what you're doing is illegal. 1:01:21.720 --> 1:01:22.480 You have to stop. 1:01:23.040 --> 1:01:25.960 And you might get oh, it's not being a buzzkiller. 1:01:26.080 --> 1:01:28.200 You know, you're ruining our fund. But the rules are 1:01:28.240 --> 1:01:32.400 there for a reason for safety or for conservation and 1:01:32.560 --> 1:01:33.720 protection of habitat. 1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:36.320 So this is a tricky one. This is gonna be 1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:37.800 a tricky for you to answer. You don't need to 1:01:37.840 --> 1:01:40.800 spend too much time on it. But uh, We've got 1:01:40.800 --> 1:01:42.040 a lot of ton of things I want to ask 1:01:42.040 --> 1:01:48.840 you about. There has been how do you handle when 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:52.080 there's rules Like, there's certain rules, imagine they're just like 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:56.000 seems so concrete and if that rule wasn't in place, 1:01:56.040 --> 1:01:59.880 the whole system would collapse. Okay, But there's gotta be 1:01:59.880 --> 1:02:03.360 a the rules where you might look and be like, yeah, 1:02:03.480 --> 1:02:07.440 you know it is confusing, sure it and you don't 1:02:07.440 --> 1:02:09.680 need to say which ones or it is poorly written 1:02:10.040 --> 1:02:12.560 or I really can't articulate to you the why this 1:02:12.760 --> 1:02:15.640 is the that way? Yeah? Is it hard to jump 1:02:15.680 --> 1:02:18.960 into that mindset of having it be that I'm not here. 1:02:20.240 --> 1:02:22.560 I'm not like an arbiter. I'm not here to do 1:02:22.840 --> 1:02:26.400 value judgments. I'm here to be like, this is my code, sure, 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:29.120 and I enforce this code and I and it's not 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:32.800 my I don't need to morally wrestle with you know. 1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:34.680 Yeah what I'm up against here? 1:02:34.800 --> 1:02:36.600 No, I know what you're talking about. I mean there's 1:02:36.640 --> 1:02:38.880 rules that are pretty black and white. I mean, anybody 1:02:38.960 --> 1:02:41.280 who's grown up around fishing knows you have to have 1:02:41.320 --> 1:02:43.800 affiicient license. It's just it's just a general rule. It 1:02:43.800 --> 1:02:46.280 doesn't matter what state you go to, and so I 1:02:46.320 --> 1:02:49.160 have little patience for people's excuse of I didn't know 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:51.720 I need a fishing license. There's just nowhere in the 1:02:51.840 --> 1:02:54.560 United States that you don't need a fishing license. Obviously 1:02:54.720 --> 1:02:57.480 there's age groups or groups that maybe don't need them, 1:02:57.560 --> 1:03:00.600 from from the elderly to the young, but everyone needs 1:03:00.600 --> 1:03:03.440 efficient license, and so the excuse of I didn't know 1:03:03.600 --> 1:03:06.640 doesn't hold weight with me. And there's a general acceptance 1:03:06.720 --> 1:03:12.800 of ignorance of the laws, not a defense. But you know, 1:03:13.080 --> 1:03:16.880 as we create laws and regulations, sometimes we don't know 1:03:17.120 --> 1:03:19.640 the effects of them until we try and implement them. 1:03:20.200 --> 1:03:23.000 And our job and enforcement is to implement and enforce 1:03:23.040 --> 1:03:25.720 the laws. You know, if your three branches of government, 1:03:25.840 --> 1:03:30.560 Legislature creates law, the courts interpret them, and the executive branch, 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:34.040 which we're part of, enforces them or implements them, so 1:03:34.200 --> 1:03:38.400 that implementation, you know, you'll have decision makers up on 1:03:38.560 --> 1:03:40.960 high that'll give us a law or give us priorities, 1:03:42.240 --> 1:03:45.040 and we'll implement them. But part of my role as 1:03:45.080 --> 1:03:48.160 an administrator is to send up feedback back up the 1:03:48.240 --> 1:03:51.720 chain of how that implementation went, how the enforcement went, 1:03:51.800 --> 1:03:54.920 where their issues, where we were running into problems in 1:03:54.960 --> 1:03:57.520 the courts where the courts are interpret it different than 1:03:57.560 --> 1:04:02.720 the maybe legislative intent, and so sometimes we use that 1:04:03.040 --> 1:04:06.760 implementation to clarify laws. That's why you may see laws 1:04:06.920 --> 1:04:07.720 change over time. 1:04:08.040 --> 1:04:10.240 Oh, because you just keep running into trouble every time 1:04:10.280 --> 1:04:12.520 you go to prosc someone tries to prosecute and they 1:04:12.600 --> 1:04:13.400 run into trouble. 1:04:13.200 --> 1:04:16.680 A loophole is found, or it's ambiguous. You know, if 1:04:16.720 --> 1:04:19.040 we run into issues where the general public just is 1:04:19.160 --> 1:04:22.520 confused or our own staff, you know, that's a good feedback. 1:04:22.600 --> 1:04:25.080 If our own staff game wardens are confused what the 1:04:25.160 --> 1:04:27.080 role is in this, that's a good sign the public 1:04:27.240 --> 1:04:29.480 is too, and we'll try and fix that, you know, 1:04:29.600 --> 1:04:32.280 as soon as we can. Sometimes the government process is slow, 1:04:33.640 --> 1:04:35.720 but we have a lot of other tools and enforcement 1:04:35.880 --> 1:04:37.840 ticket is the last thing we want to do or 1:04:37.880 --> 1:04:38.840 take someone to jail. 1:04:39.240 --> 1:04:39.360 You know. 1:04:39.440 --> 1:04:42.320 Officers have discretion, and the way we look at discretion 1:04:42.560 --> 1:04:44.480 is what kind of action do we need to take 1:04:44.600 --> 1:04:47.360 to change behavior? If me just walking up to you 1:04:47.440 --> 1:04:50.280 and reminding you, hey, put your dog on a leash 1:04:50.320 --> 1:04:52.600 in a state park is good enough, and you do it, 1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:54.720 and you comply and we never have to talk again. 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:57.360 Then there's no reason for a ticket. But if I 1:04:57.440 --> 1:04:59.439 tell you that and then you give me the finger 1:04:59.520 --> 1:05:02.520 and walk up off and start, you know, play and 1:05:02.640 --> 1:05:04.920 catch with your dog. Now we're gonna have to step 1:05:05.040 --> 1:05:09.919 up to a higher level of enforcement. And and most 1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:12.360 people are complying. Most people takes is the game warning 1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:17.720 driving by, and everybody's like, oh game wards on, and 1:05:17.840 --> 1:05:20.440 now everybody's you know, behaving, And so a lot of 1:05:20.600 --> 1:05:22.680 a lot of our efforts are just being out there, 1:05:22.760 --> 1:05:26.520 interacting with people and being present. And for the most part, 1:05:26.840 --> 1:05:29.520 people don't need roles and laws because they're good. They're 1:05:29.600 --> 1:05:31.280 good members of society and they want. 1:05:31.160 --> 1:05:34.080 To do the right thing. You get in the time 1:05:34.120 --> 1:05:37.600 i've known you, you get I don't want to say, wrangled. 1:05:37.600 --> 1:05:39.880 And this part of your job, you get involved in 1:05:39.960 --> 1:05:44.640 animal tax Yeah, and here because of the nature where 1:05:44.640 --> 1:05:47.360 you are, you get involved in like serious animal tacks. 1:05:48.880 --> 1:05:51.040 Get involved from a law enforcement point of view, not 1:05:51.200 --> 1:05:52.880 like you step out of the office. 1:05:53.320 --> 1:05:55.640 Oh now you're getting attacked by animals. The owner's an 1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:57.560 animal tag, it's it's under your purview. 1:05:57.680 --> 1:06:00.240 Sure, I've been charged by a few things, but I've 1:06:00.320 --> 1:06:03.720 never been injured by an animal yet. But yeah, so 1:06:04.120 --> 1:06:09.200 you know wildlife human attacks. Every state has some sort 1:06:09.240 --> 1:06:12.000 of process or role to play in that when it 1:06:12.040 --> 1:06:15.800 comes to wildlife management. And in Montana, you know, say 1:06:15.840 --> 1:06:18.240 a grizzly bear gets into a conflict and causes an 1:06:18.280 --> 1:06:22.680 injury or death of a human, local law enforcement is 1:06:22.760 --> 1:06:26.080 there and responsible to so the local sheriff's department, maybe 1:06:26.120 --> 1:06:29.480 the land management agency. So we have a lot of 1:06:29.560 --> 1:06:32.120 federal lands in Montana, so forest Service. 1:06:31.920 --> 1:06:33.960 Well, I want to back itself as people will understand that. 1:06:34.040 --> 1:06:37.959 So let's say that a let's say that a hunter 1:06:40.160 --> 1:06:44.360 National Forest Land YEP in the state of Montana gets 1:06:44.440 --> 1:06:47.800 killed by a grizzly bear. Correct, walk through how that 1:06:47.960 --> 1:06:49.000 pie is divided up. 1:06:50.200 --> 1:06:53.320 Yeah, it's there's a lot going up there is. There's 1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:56.240 a lot of agencies with a lot of responsibility. So 1:06:56.640 --> 1:06:59.640 for one, the most important thing for us is human 1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:03.800 safe public safety. So when there is an incident like that, 1:07:04.000 --> 1:07:06.840 we're going to respond with an effort to stop whatever 1:07:07.040 --> 1:07:10.320 danger is happening and make sure no one, you know, 1:07:10.520 --> 1:07:13.480 anybody injured gets the medical attention they need and then 1:07:13.560 --> 1:07:17.720 to stop any further public safety issue. That's the priority 1:07:17.840 --> 1:07:21.200 of everybody, doesn't matter what jurisdiction, what patch you're wearing 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:24.360 on your shoulders. That's the first priority is to stop 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:26.360 whatever bad thing is happening. 1:07:26.440 --> 1:07:29.440 Yeh in this case meaning like assessed whether this is 1:07:30.880 --> 1:07:32.840 correct going to happen like a second time someone walks 1:07:32.840 --> 1:07:34.800 into this area, Yeah, exactly, So that could. 1:07:34.640 --> 1:07:37.080 Be closing an area until we figure out what happens. 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:39.280 So that could be a management action on the animal, 1:07:39.400 --> 1:07:42.400 all those type of things. And so the jurisdictions, you know, 1:07:42.600 --> 1:07:45.240 if it happened on US four Service land, their law 1:07:45.320 --> 1:07:49.520 enforcement divisions jurisdiction over their property rules and regulations. The 1:07:49.600 --> 1:07:53.760 state of Montana has jurisdiction over wild animals in Montana, 1:07:54.000 --> 1:07:56.960 grizzy bears. There's some nuance because they're federally protected. The 1:07:57.080 --> 1:08:01.040 US Fish Wildlife Service still has general management authority, but 1:08:01.120 --> 1:08:04.160 there's an MoU sign between them and Fish Wildlife and 1:08:04.240 --> 1:08:06.360 parks that where we do a lot of on the 1:08:06.440 --> 1:08:11.880 ground stuff, but the over memoryanum of understanding or memorandum 1:08:11.920 --> 1:08:13.120 of agreement m aay. 1:08:13.800 --> 1:08:17.080 So they basically sign off managing that situation to you. 1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:18.720 They're not like wait till we get there. 1:08:18.920 --> 1:08:19.120 Yeah. 1:08:19.280 --> 1:08:24.280 So over some overarching decisions would would be handled by 1:08:24.320 --> 1:08:27.640 the US Fish Wildlife Service. Let's say we capture a 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:32.400 live grizzly bear that maybe we're suspected to be responsible 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:34.880 for the incident. The US Fish Wildlife Service would be 1:08:34.880 --> 1:08:37.080 heavily involved in the decision making on. 1:08:37.240 --> 1:08:40.280 That the what to do with that bear and that 1:08:40.400 --> 1:08:42.200 barrel exactly exactly. 1:08:42.640 --> 1:08:45.639 So so like if you if a bear kills someone, 1:08:45.760 --> 1:08:48.080 you determined like you need to you need to kill 1:08:48.160 --> 1:08:51.439 that bear, you have to run that past Fish and 1:08:51.479 --> 1:08:53.960 Wildlife first, correct, Yeah, it can't make that decision. 1:08:54.080 --> 1:08:56.240 It depends on the situation there. There could be an 1:08:56.280 --> 1:08:59.240 instance right on the ground where a person could well. 1:08:59.120 --> 1:09:01.320 You've had that happy where you went to an attack 1:09:01.439 --> 1:09:04.880 site and the bear is still hanging out, correct, yep, Yeah, 1:09:05.000 --> 1:09:06.599 so then you don't need to like call someone. 1:09:06.800 --> 1:09:10.559 No, no, there's you know, any person you know, which 1:09:10.600 --> 1:09:13.559 includes law enforcement, has the right to defend themselves. I see, 1:09:13.760 --> 1:09:16.200 And there's decision making on the ground that can occur 1:09:16.320 --> 1:09:19.920 where this animal is still a threat, its behavior is predatory, 1:09:21.000 --> 1:09:23.120 or someone's in danger and we have to make a 1:09:23.240 --> 1:09:26.680 management decision or defend life, you know right there in there. 1:09:26.720 --> 1:09:28.439 I got, Yeah, that's that's like you said, Like any 1:09:28.479 --> 1:09:30.680 person right you're in a situation then which would be. 1:09:31.040 --> 1:09:33.519 Correct applicable to anyone correct. Anybody has the right to 1:09:33.600 --> 1:09:37.639 defend themselves from danger. And then the other big part 1:09:37.800 --> 1:09:40.960 of the jurisdictional thing is is when you have a 1:09:41.040 --> 1:09:45.120 human that's injured or deceased, the sheriff's department or the 1:09:45.200 --> 1:09:49.479 corner has jurisdiction over that investigation the unintended death of 1:09:49.520 --> 1:09:53.160 a human or injury to humans. So there's a huge 1:09:53.240 --> 1:09:57.120 collaborative effort between federal law enforcement if they're the land 1:09:57.160 --> 1:10:01.080 Manager or the US Fish Wildlife Service with grizzly bears 1:10:01.600 --> 1:10:05.439 Montana Fish Wildlife in parks, and then local law enforcement, 1:10:05.520 --> 1:10:08.800 which sometimes could involve city, county, highway patrol whoever is 1:10:08.840 --> 1:10:13.000 basically available. You know, our role as game wardens in 1:10:13.040 --> 1:10:16.280 the state of Montana is to investigate that scene in 1:10:16.479 --> 1:10:20.840 one confirm if an animal was present or responsible, so 1:10:20.960 --> 1:10:24.120 it could be reported as an animal attack. But unless 1:10:24.160 --> 1:10:26.240 we have a dead grizzly bear right there, you know, 1:10:26.320 --> 1:10:28.400 in the middle of the attack, we don't know for sure. 1:10:28.600 --> 1:10:32.559 And so it's looking at DNA evidence, looking at surrounding evidents, 1:10:32.600 --> 1:10:39.960 looking for caches or bear dens tracks, injury assessment, all 1:10:40.000 --> 1:10:42.959 those type of things to determine if an animal is involved, 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:47.760 determined species of that animal, and then look at behavior 1:10:47.880 --> 1:10:51.400 also our best interpretation of was it acting defensively, was 1:10:51.439 --> 1:10:55.080 it acting predatorily? Is it diseased or something it's just 1:10:55.200 --> 1:10:59.640 acting out of its nature totally something wrong. And then 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:02.599 the thing is that management decision. What do we need 1:11:02.680 --> 1:11:06.720 to do for management on the situation of whatever animals responsible. 1:11:07.040 --> 1:11:09.640 Do we leave it alone, do we haze it, do 1:11:09.760 --> 1:11:13.400 we capture it, do we euthanize it? Or you know, 1:11:13.640 --> 1:11:17.479 thinking about location. Is in a remote location or is 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:20.200 it right in the middle of town. If the behavior 1:11:20.360 --> 1:11:25.400 was defensive, it's it's unlikely it's going to happen again soon. 1:11:25.920 --> 1:11:29.400 If it's predatory and they've identified humans as a food source, 1:11:30.240 --> 1:11:33.320 there's a current human threat. Or if the animals habituated, 1:11:34.200 --> 1:11:36.960 you know, it's lost its fear of humans, identified humans 1:11:36.960 --> 1:11:39.240 as a food source as in garbage and those things, 1:11:39.280 --> 1:11:40.160 then that's a problem. 1:11:40.240 --> 1:11:42.479 Also, I don't have an opinion on as meaning I 1:11:42.560 --> 1:11:46.160 see both sides of it. But it surprises me that 1:11:46.880 --> 1:11:49.800 you could have a It surprises me that you could 1:11:49.840 --> 1:11:54.439 have a grizzly kill a person, and the decision might 1:11:54.479 --> 1:11:56.360 be made to let the bear walk or is that 1:11:56.560 --> 1:11:58.360 not really the right way of expressing it. 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:03.160 And that's yeah. If there's a lot of factors in that, 1:12:03.479 --> 1:12:06.280 and like I said, remoteness and behavior one of them. 1:12:07.200 --> 1:12:09.320 There's also whether or not we think we can get 1:12:09.520 --> 1:12:10.439 the right bear. 1:12:10.600 --> 1:12:14.000 Yeah, that I imagine is a big issue, right, Like, Yeah, 1:12:14.120 --> 1:12:18.000 time has gone by in move in our experience. 1:12:18.280 --> 1:12:20.160 You know, I don't know what the percentage is, but 1:12:20.320 --> 1:12:24.640 ninety plus percentage of these incidents that we have with 1:12:24.800 --> 1:12:28.719 predatory animals that attack a human, it's defensive in nature. 1:12:29.080 --> 1:12:32.600 The animal is scared to death, hits the person in 1:12:32.680 --> 1:12:34.840 a defensive modus. I don't know what this is. It's 1:12:34.840 --> 1:12:37.320 a threat to me. I'm gonna smack it around and 1:12:37.439 --> 1:12:39.920 let it know I'm tougher than it, and then it 1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:43.160 runs for the hills. It's really rare that we go 1:12:43.280 --> 1:12:45.280 into one of these attack singes and the bear or 1:12:45.320 --> 1:12:49.639 whatever it is is still there. And so the likelihood 1:12:49.720 --> 1:12:52.680 that we get the right bear it's pretty low. You know. 1:12:52.800 --> 1:12:55.439 We'll do aerial searches, we'll make sure it's gone from 1:12:55.479 --> 1:12:58.639 the area. We'll do ground searches. Sometimes we use houndsmen, 1:12:59.000 --> 1:13:01.960 we set traps all those type of things. It doesn't 1:13:02.000 --> 1:13:04.479 mean we're going to euthanize it, but we're making sure 1:13:04.520 --> 1:13:05.560 the bear has moved on. 1:13:05.800 --> 1:13:08.960 And but rolling through the helicopter and going into a 1:13:08.960 --> 1:13:10.559 bunch of bears down isn't like you're. 1:13:10.560 --> 1:13:13.280 No, we don't want to and we don't we wouldn't 1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:16.040 want to euthanize you know, ten bears trying to get one. 1:13:16.200 --> 1:13:21.240 That's that's that's how like as far as for the 1:13:21.280 --> 1:13:25.120 amount of months grizzlies are out walking around whatever, April 1:13:25.240 --> 1:13:30.439 to December, say, like, is there just a huge I 1:13:30.560 --> 1:13:34.240 imagine when September hits, it's just like not many incidents 1:13:34.280 --> 1:13:38.719 and then spike and then it falls off, like yeah 1:13:38.760 --> 1:13:39.960 in November or something. 1:13:40.479 --> 1:13:44.479 Definitely, the fall seems to be the highest density of attacks. 1:13:44.600 --> 1:13:46.240 And a lot of that has to do with just 1:13:46.400 --> 1:13:49.599 hunters being in the field, being in places that there 1:13:49.720 --> 1:13:51.640 isn't a lot of people. 1:13:51.640 --> 1:13:54.240 You know, and fresh meat laying around. 1:13:54.680 --> 1:13:57.479 That's part of it too. But you know, people displace 1:13:57.600 --> 1:14:00.640 wild animals. So you know, in our area, go to 1:14:00.800 --> 1:14:04.640 any trail that is really popular, Lava Lake, Highlight, all 1:14:04.680 --> 1:14:07.400 those places, not a whole lot of wildlife around. That's 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:10.960 because the amount of people. Mountain bikers, dog walkers, cars, 1:14:11.120 --> 1:14:15.080 all those things displace animals, and so where do hunters go. 1:14:15.479 --> 1:14:17.840 They go where the higher density of animals are going 1:14:17.920 --> 1:14:21.480 to be. Higher density of ungulates means higher density of predators. 1:14:21.720 --> 1:14:24.879 There's less people displacing them. And what kind of behavior 1:14:25.000 --> 1:14:27.439 they're displaying. They're not making a lot of noise. 1:14:28.040 --> 1:14:30.760 You make a noise like a cow exactly. 1:14:31.200 --> 1:14:33.200 And you try to keep the wind to your face. 1:14:33.320 --> 1:14:36.519 And so, I mean, it just makes sense that you 1:14:36.800 --> 1:14:39.639 increase that type of human behavior out in the field, 1:14:39.760 --> 1:14:42.320 you're going to increase the interactions with wildlife. 1:14:44.920 --> 1:14:48.960 So you know, we in terms of wildlife, that's the objective. Well, 1:14:49.840 --> 1:14:52.200 like you're trying to increase the interactions with the wildlife. 1:14:52.280 --> 1:14:56.000 Bozeman Montana is prime grizzybear habitat. But how many grizzlebear 1:14:56.040 --> 1:14:59.479 attacks do we have on mainstream Boson none? Because of 1:14:59.560 --> 1:15:02.479 the high insity of humans that are displacing grizzly bears. 1:15:02.520 --> 1:15:05.280 They just aren't around this area because we get in 1:15:05.360 --> 1:15:07.240 their way. They're afraid of us in a way, and 1:15:09.160 --> 1:15:11.080 it's just just not a good place for them to be. 1:15:11.240 --> 1:15:14.680 And even if they even if they did want to 1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:17.439 be the likelihood that they're going to get in trouble 1:15:17.920 --> 1:15:21.599 and die from getting hit by a car, from getting 1:15:21.600 --> 1:15:25.000 in trouble, from getting into garbage, whatever. It's like if 1:15:25.040 --> 1:15:27.040 they wanted to be, it's still tough for them. Yeah. 1:15:27.080 --> 1:15:31.280 Absolutely, But we have some that I don't know if 1:15:31.280 --> 1:15:35.240 they live full time, but they certainly skirt with with 1:15:35.840 --> 1:15:36.840 town boundaries. 1:15:37.520 --> 1:15:40.920 And particularly as this town grows, you know that that 1:15:41.200 --> 1:15:45.720 urban to wild land's interface grows or gets more complicated. 1:15:45.880 --> 1:15:48.439 Yeah. Do there's a house. It's like they backpack the 1:15:48.520 --> 1:15:52.479 parts that house that you can see from anywhere in town, 1:15:53.520 --> 1:15:55.120 halfway up the bridgers. 1:15:57.680 --> 1:15:59.200 Is that the one that reflects the sun off? 1:15:59.400 --> 1:16:02.479 Oh no, he's man, He said to his realer, Like, 1:16:02.520 --> 1:16:05.320 I want you to find the most conspicuous spot you 1:16:05.400 --> 1:16:07.600 can find in all of town. Then I'd like you 1:16:07.640 --> 1:16:10.840 to find the most conspicuous material, and I want you 1:16:10.960 --> 1:16:13.639 to backpack all that material up to that spot. 1:16:14.040 --> 1:16:16.879 Helicopter so I can build a radars and the builders 1:16:16.960 --> 1:16:17.720 like you. 1:16:18.120 --> 1:16:19.800 Looking at a lot of people, and you're gonna have 1:16:19.840 --> 1:16:21.520 a good view of the airfield. 1:16:21.600 --> 1:16:22.040 Is that all right? 1:16:22.280 --> 1:16:24.479 What is the perfect Is it a house? 1:16:26.800 --> 1:16:30.599 We heard three forks and the sun's hitting something. Yeah, something, 1:16:30.960 --> 1:16:34.719 what you're talking about, there's something halfway up the bridges. 1:16:34.800 --> 1:16:38.080 It's like glowing. It's not a rapt. 1:16:41.560 --> 1:16:46.439 Along with people displacing wildlife, there's plenty of folks that 1:16:46.479 --> 1:16:52.519 are moving into that urban wildlife interface too, that make 1:16:52.720 --> 1:16:54.360 an effort to attract wildlife. 1:16:54.880 --> 1:16:59.840 Sure, uh, you know, wildlife is one of Montana's greatest resources. 1:17:00.080 --> 1:17:01.920 So a lot of people visit here and move here 1:17:02.040 --> 1:17:06.879 because of those wild resources. I did, Yeah, exactly exactly. 1:17:07.080 --> 1:17:07.959 You know, it's something. 1:17:11.320 --> 1:17:13.479 Lazy about it, just lazy about it. 1:17:13.800 --> 1:17:16.840 And so the I can understand the appeal of the 1:17:16.960 --> 1:17:20.760 thought of buying a little mountain place and being able 1:17:20.760 --> 1:17:23.000 to look out your window and see bears and elk 1:17:23.080 --> 1:17:26.320 frolicking in your yard. And to Yanni's point, there's there 1:17:26.479 --> 1:17:30.519 there's still plenty of wildlife around this town and the 1:17:30.640 --> 1:17:35.720 towns that are closer to higher animal density. So think 1:17:35.720 --> 1:17:40.080 about towns closer to Yellowstone National Park West Yellowstone Gardener. 1:17:40.160 --> 1:17:43.479 They deal with grizz of bears going down main Street 1:17:43.560 --> 1:17:46.599 all the time. In those towns, less people, but also 1:17:46.720 --> 1:17:53.120 they're in the heart of high density wildlife areas. That 1:17:53.520 --> 1:17:58.519 change that's occurring around here definitely is increasing conflict as 1:17:58.600 --> 1:18:01.080 we are seeing more people move into the area, more 1:18:01.160 --> 1:18:05.960 people displace wildlife, more habitat being developed, and more people 1:18:06.080 --> 1:18:10.280 moving into that interface zone. You're seeing definitely conflicts on 1:18:10.360 --> 1:18:14.080 the rise and more bears. Sure, yeah, yeah for doing great. 1:18:14.479 --> 1:18:16.960 Like you said, you've been a game more than for 1:18:17.080 --> 1:18:20.000 twelve years and you hear all the time like, oh, 1:18:20.120 --> 1:18:23.360 every year it's more grizzly attacks. Like is do you 1:18:23.479 --> 1:18:25.720 feel that's the case or is it just like there's 1:18:25.800 --> 1:18:29.000 more exposure to the attacks and the media, or is 1:18:29.080 --> 1:18:32.240 it like actually an increasing number of attacks? 1:18:32.280 --> 1:18:32.400 You know. 1:18:33.000 --> 1:18:36.400 So my understanding from talking to our bear specialists and 1:18:36.760 --> 1:18:42.240 seeing their data is that the attack rate, if you 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:45.240 compare it to population at the same time of the 1:18:45.360 --> 1:18:50.280 animal and population of humans, it's remaining steady. So the 1:18:50.439 --> 1:18:53.880 frequency is going up, but so is the bear population 1:18:54.120 --> 1:18:58.519 and human population. So it's not like it's just spiking. 1:18:58.200 --> 1:19:02.200 Crazy as have changed their habits. No, it's just that 1:19:02.280 --> 1:19:04.200 there's more of them and there's more people for them 1:19:04.240 --> 1:19:04.679 to attack. 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:07.200 Correct, And why do people move to this area. 1:19:07.840 --> 1:19:08.720 Get attacked by a bear? 1:19:08.960 --> 1:19:13.360 Well to go outside, you know, I mean it's crazy 1:19:13.400 --> 1:19:15.639 the amount of people that are citizens of this state 1:19:15.760 --> 1:19:18.800 that either hunt and fish or just recorate period out 1:19:18.840 --> 1:19:20.960 in the woods. I mean, we see it around this area. 1:19:21.360 --> 1:19:26.040 Explosion is huge. People typically vacation here, not for the 1:19:26.160 --> 1:19:29.160 cultural amenities of the town, which has amazing ones, but 1:19:29.320 --> 1:19:31.439 it's because they want to see the outdoors and the 1:19:32.040 --> 1:19:33.080 wild resources we have. 1:19:33.320 --> 1:19:34.679 So let's move to Ottery. 1:19:34.880 --> 1:19:35.080 Wow. 1:19:35.320 --> 1:19:38.080 Oh, come on, while we're on that's what I want 1:19:38.120 --> 1:19:40.640 to hear. It's going to be good, I promise. But 1:19:40.800 --> 1:19:42.400 this follow up question I think is good to While 1:19:42.439 --> 1:19:45.200 we're on grizzly bears, there seems to be in our 1:19:45.320 --> 1:19:48.759 community in attitude. Every time you see a post about 1:19:48.960 --> 1:19:52.519 another grizzly bear attack, it's like, it's because we need 1:19:52.840 --> 1:19:55.519 a gold day grizzly bear season, and if we start 1:19:55.600 --> 1:19:58.960 shooting the bears, it'll cure all of our grizzly bear problems. 1:20:00.040 --> 1:20:02.080 Your attitude opinion about. 1:20:01.840 --> 1:20:03.040 That, you're asking me? 1:20:07.240 --> 1:20:07.400 Uh? 1:20:11.120 --> 1:20:14.880 Yeah, I mean Montana has a plan where we would 1:20:15.160 --> 1:20:20.679 like to retain or take back grizzly bear management kind of. Yeah, 1:20:20.760 --> 1:20:21.120 go for it. 1:20:21.479 --> 1:20:22.920 The FEDS would like you to do it. 1:20:23.000 --> 1:20:25.240 Oh, there's there's an agreement there for sure. 1:20:25.400 --> 1:20:26.920 No, I'm just wanting people to this I'm not. 1:20:27.000 --> 1:20:30.040 I'm not speaking as I'm not speaking as anam pancrats. 1:20:30.040 --> 1:20:32.160 I'm not speaking as warden pancrats. This is the point 1:20:32.160 --> 1:20:35.720 I like to clarify to people. All the time, the 1:20:36.800 --> 1:20:40.200 the federal agency that is in charge of taking care 1:20:40.280 --> 1:20:43.200 of grizzly bears, the US Fish and Wildlife Service, they 1:20:43.320 --> 1:20:46.959 are the ones. They are the ones that propose delisting. 1:20:47.080 --> 1:20:53.320 This gets lost all the time. They say, of all 1:20:53.439 --> 1:20:57.880 the danger species they administer, they say, when it's time. 1:20:58.920 --> 1:20:59.879 They have said. 1:21:00.400 --> 1:21:03.320 Multiple times for thirteen years or it's been, they've been, 1:21:03.360 --> 1:21:06.559 they hit, they have said, hey, heads up, it's time. 1:21:08.200 --> 1:21:12.200 It's it's them saying this, So go on. I just 1:21:12.320 --> 1:21:14.720 want to make sure that listeners at home understand this 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:17.040 isn't someone going and being like, give me that, give 1:21:17.120 --> 1:21:20.080 me that. It's like the US Fish and Wildlife Service 1:21:20.120 --> 1:21:24.000 has said it is time now for us to hand 1:21:24.080 --> 1:21:28.280 over management of the grizzly bear. Yeah, in this and 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:32.720 then outside litigants block them from doing what they're trying 1:21:32.720 --> 1:21:37.719 to do. This is not a tug of war, right now, 1:21:37.840 --> 1:21:40.360 go back to I just want to make sure people 1:21:40.400 --> 1:21:42.759 understand this because this is not widely understood. 1:21:43.640 --> 1:21:43.800 Well. 1:21:43.840 --> 1:21:48.120 Thinking about Yanni's question. You know, fish, Wildlife and parks 1:21:48.160 --> 1:21:51.960 and other state agencies utilize hunting as a management tool. 1:21:52.000 --> 1:21:54.720 That's real critical to the North American model and to 1:21:55.200 --> 1:21:58.439 the way that we manage populations here, and so not 1:21:58.600 --> 1:22:02.000 having that tool for grizzy bear, it's just one less 1:22:02.320 --> 1:22:08.080 option for us to use. The future is going to 1:22:08.120 --> 1:22:11.720 be really slow on any grizzly bear state managed grizzly bear. 1:22:12.080 --> 1:22:15.799 You're not going to see wide open general tag hunting 1:22:15.880 --> 1:22:19.600 on grizzly bears anytime probably in our lifetime. 1:22:20.160 --> 1:22:23.840 Anytime, I mean less like also, and everybody dies. That's 1:22:24.240 --> 1:22:25.960 so most people die. 1:22:26.360 --> 1:22:30.640 Maybe you know, if a season ever occurred, it's going 1:22:30.680 --> 1:22:35.040 to be extremely limited. And and for those who are saying, 1:22:36.200 --> 1:22:38.000 you know, we need to put the fear of man 1:22:38.160 --> 1:22:42.200 back into these bears, that's very unlikely that that is 1:22:42.240 --> 1:22:45.439 going to result from one to three super tags out there. 1:22:46.680 --> 1:22:49.680 It just just isn't you know, can you explain, like 1:22:50.520 --> 1:22:52.760 people may not know what super tags are and the 1:22:52.800 --> 1:22:55.240 fact that if there was a hunting season, there's only 1:22:55.280 --> 1:22:56.880 ever going to be a few bears. 1:22:56.560 --> 1:22:59.479 That would yeah, more than likely. You know, if the 1:22:59.640 --> 1:23:04.400 state gains back management, it's gonna be limited. Any sort 1:23:04.439 --> 1:23:07.000 of hunt isn't gonna happen right away, and if it, 1:23:07.240 --> 1:23:09.040 if and when it ever does, it's gonna be very 1:23:09.120 --> 1:23:12.160 limited to a handful of tags, one or two statewide. 1:23:12.680 --> 1:23:15.320 Might guess, Yeah, I'd like to remind people what we 1:23:15.560 --> 1:23:16.920 kind of got a glimpse of how it would go 1:23:17.840 --> 1:23:22.280 some years ago when delisting came close. Wyoming was gonna 1:23:22.280 --> 1:23:24.439 do twenty. They were going to issue twenty tags, and 1:23:24.520 --> 1:23:27.640 they have the bulk of the you know the way 1:23:27.720 --> 1:23:29.559 it's cut up, They have the bulk of the bears 1:23:29.600 --> 1:23:32.519 in the Greater Yellstone ecosystem, which was gonna get delisted. 1:23:34.479 --> 1:23:36.360 Had they done the Northern Continental divide, it might have 1:23:36.360 --> 1:23:38.280 played out differently. But the way they were looking at 1:23:38.360 --> 1:23:42.679 delisting the Greater Yellstone area, Idaho was gonna do a tag. 1:23:44.680 --> 1:23:46.040 I think it's one. Was it one? 1:23:46.160 --> 1:23:49.559 I applied for that because I was I was a resident. 1:23:49.720 --> 1:23:51.960 It was only open to residents in the state Idaho. 1:23:52.280 --> 1:23:54.480 Yeah, Montana abstained. 1:23:54.840 --> 1:23:58.759 Montana was gonna sit it out. Wyoming was gonna do twenty. 1:23:59.439 --> 1:24:03.040 So on in Wyholming one in Idaho zero. Now that 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:05.719 wasn't northern kindall like it might have played out differently 1:24:05.760 --> 1:24:08.200 because northern continentill divide. They're the states sitting on over 1:24:08.240 --> 1:24:10.800 one thousand there. But just to give you a sense 1:24:10.880 --> 1:24:12.640 of how limited it was going to be, it was 1:24:12.640 --> 1:24:14.120 going to be so limited that it was going to 1:24:14.160 --> 1:24:17.439 be none. Yeah that was just first year. Yeah, that 1:24:17.560 --> 1:24:19.519 was first year, and that was at that time, not 1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:21.040 this time. Yeah, the plan. 1:24:21.200 --> 1:24:23.280 You know, I'm not part of writing the plan. I'll 1:24:23.360 --> 1:24:26.720 help implement it and such, but it's going to be 1:24:26.840 --> 1:24:30.599 very limited. The big thing is making sure the state 1:24:31.320 --> 1:24:33.400 and the citizens of the state have tools to deal 1:24:33.439 --> 1:24:37.800 with conflict, tools to deal with management decisions. So, you know, 1:24:37.960 --> 1:24:41.519 grizzy bear populations are expanding, they're moving into areas they 1:24:41.600 --> 1:24:43.800 occupied a long time ago, but they haven't been for 1:24:43.880 --> 1:24:48.479 one hundred plus years, and so so towns, landowners, ag 1:24:48.640 --> 1:24:51.200 producers are dealing with a new conflict they're not used 1:24:51.240 --> 1:24:53.639 to dealing with. And so what they want is tools. 1:24:53.720 --> 1:24:57.760 They want answers from the state management agency, from the 1:24:57.800 --> 1:25:00.120 local bear specialists, from the game or what can I 1:25:00.240 --> 1:25:03.320 do when this animal is in my front yard and 1:25:03.320 --> 1:25:04.840 I'm just trying to take the kids to school. What 1:25:04.960 --> 1:25:07.560 can I do when this animal is killing my livestock? 1:25:08.040 --> 1:25:10.720 You know all those type of things, how do we 1:25:10.840 --> 1:25:15.160 respond to it? And the agency's opinion always has been 1:25:15.280 --> 1:25:19.080 through state management is the best way to achieve those 1:25:19.160 --> 1:25:21.000 goals or to be able to have the most amount 1:25:21.000 --> 1:25:23.360 of tools in the toolbox to deal with those conflicts. 1:25:24.400 --> 1:25:28.120 Well, I think, you know, it's very interesting and I 1:25:28.400 --> 1:25:31.479 haven't looked at the exact numbers in a while, but 1:25:32.640 --> 1:25:35.720 if you look at like the black bear population and 1:25:35.880 --> 1:25:40.800 we have a black bear season and the increase year 1:25:41.000 --> 1:25:47.679 over year of conflict black bears that are are killed 1:25:47.760 --> 1:25:53.559 by not hunters, right by state or federal employees at 1:25:54.240 --> 1:25:59.880 one agency or another, that's a very telling trend, very 1:26:00.080 --> 1:26:01.920 telling number to me. Right. 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:05.520 It's like I meaning, here, you have spring season, fall season. 1:26:06.160 --> 1:26:07.200 You can run them with dogs. 1:26:07.960 --> 1:26:10.920 It still got bears coming through the green door. 1:26:11.160 --> 1:26:11.400 Yep. 1:26:11.560 --> 1:26:13.920 It's a primary tool for us. So when our game 1:26:14.000 --> 1:26:18.040 wardens are responding or our bear specialists responding to a 1:26:18.840 --> 1:26:22.320 black bear conflict, for instance, around this area and it's 1:26:22.720 --> 1:26:25.200 you know, out of city limits in an area that 1:26:25.479 --> 1:26:28.320 hunting is currently open or will be soon or something 1:26:28.360 --> 1:26:32.280 in the future, and and it's safe, that's one of 1:26:32.360 --> 1:26:35.160 the first options or first solutions they present to the 1:26:35.240 --> 1:26:38.519 homeownered landowners, Can we get a bear hunter out here, 1:26:38.920 --> 1:26:41.439 because we would much rather a hunter harvest that than 1:26:41.520 --> 1:26:42.679 we harvest it ourselves. 1:26:42.760 --> 1:26:45.120 And as for a lot of different reasons, right. 1:26:45.200 --> 1:26:48.000 Many different reasons. Yeah, absolutely, I never get any phone calls. 1:26:50.800 --> 1:26:54.479 Well that I spoke to yesterday said the absolute worst 1:26:54.560 --> 1:26:56.600 part of his job, and he believes many of his 1:26:57.120 --> 1:26:59.920 colleagues feel the same way, is to have to euthanize animals. 1:27:00.080 --> 1:27:10.320 Absolutely. You know. 1:27:10.439 --> 1:27:14.920 The first time I killed an animal on duty, and 1:27:16.040 --> 1:27:18.679 the first actual time was accidental. So I was doing 1:27:19.080 --> 1:27:22.320 wetland work over in Minnesota, and I was driving a 1:27:22.400 --> 1:27:25.519 side by side across the prairie to do some some 1:27:25.720 --> 1:27:29.320 restoration work, and I drove over a nesting duck. Just 1:27:29.560 --> 1:27:32.040 didn't see it there, drove over it and upset me 1:27:32.200 --> 1:27:34.640 so much because here I am out here trying to 1:27:36.000 --> 1:27:38.560 manage these save them, whatever you want to call it, 1:27:38.840 --> 1:27:41.240 you know, and I just drove over one and it 1:27:41.400 --> 1:27:44.120 was just this just moment for me, of just And 1:27:44.240 --> 1:27:46.479 I was with a with a couple of high school 1:27:46.560 --> 1:27:48.160 kids and a crew who are working with me, and 1:27:48.240 --> 1:27:50.439 I had them stand up in the four side by 1:27:50.560 --> 1:27:53.040 side and their job now was to scout for ducks, 1:27:53.120 --> 1:27:56.160 we don't run over anymore because it's just totally disheartening 1:27:56.240 --> 1:27:58.640 for me. And it's the same thing here when we 1:27:58.760 --> 1:28:01.400 have to euthanize one, a lot of empathy for that animal. 1:28:01.479 --> 1:28:03.360 We put a lot of effort, a lot of blood, sweat, 1:28:03.400 --> 1:28:07.000 and tears into too managing these species, caring for them, 1:28:07.160 --> 1:28:10.760 ensuring they're here for a long time. The last thing 1:28:10.840 --> 1:28:13.160 we want to do is killing. There's times we have 1:28:13.400 --> 1:28:17.040 to because of the conflict, but usually that conflict's preventable. 1:28:17.479 --> 1:28:19.920 Usually that conflict has a lot to do with humans. 1:28:19.960 --> 1:28:23.120 Sometimes it doesn't. There's surprising counters like we talked about 1:28:23.160 --> 1:28:25.799 out in the woods, where you just humans and bears 1:28:26.080 --> 1:28:29.400 or humans and whatever animal occupied the same space and 1:28:29.479 --> 1:28:32.759 there's a fight over that space. It's really nobody's fault 1:28:32.880 --> 1:28:36.320 at that point. The bears defending it space and maybe 1:28:36.400 --> 1:28:39.719 you're defending it's your space. And those conflicts will always 1:28:39.760 --> 1:28:43.920 be there. But the preventable ones of keeping attractants clean, 1:28:44.160 --> 1:28:47.920 you know, not having fruiting trees in your yard, not 1:28:48.120 --> 1:28:53.280 having bird feeders, keeping your trash locked up until just 1:28:53.360 --> 1:28:56.840 before trash pickup occurs, all those type of things are 1:28:56.920 --> 1:29:00.840 huge that will prevent a lot of these management removals 1:29:00.920 --> 1:29:02.320 of species like bears. 1:29:03.000 --> 1:29:05.280 Yeah, when I was working with the Grizzly team in Idaho, 1:29:05.320 --> 1:29:07.280 which is like one of the coolest things I've ever 1:29:07.400 --> 1:29:11.240 done and will probably ever do. To Yanni's point, like 1:29:11.360 --> 1:29:18.320 he had this story about there's a bear getting very 1:29:18.400 --> 1:29:23.280 familiar with the particular campground. They had gone in into 1:29:23.280 --> 1:29:26.960 the campground, very popular one outside of Island Park, Idaho, 1:29:27.320 --> 1:29:31.000 and which is part of the g YE and had 1:29:31.200 --> 1:29:35.639 gone to every single campsite, said hey, there's a grizzly bear. 1:29:35.720 --> 1:29:39.120 You guys got to keep your trash locked up. This, 1:29:39.600 --> 1:29:44.840 you know, very sophisticated established campground with bear proof containers 1:29:45.720 --> 1:29:49.600 for storage and then bear proof garbage cans for disposal, 1:29:50.320 --> 1:29:59.080 And one particular campsite left all their watermelon out, very 1:29:59.160 --> 1:30:06.599 identifiable food. The bear came in got that was basically 1:30:06.720 --> 1:30:09.000 camped out on the edge of the campground. 1:30:09.760 --> 1:30:10.400 These two. 1:30:11.720 --> 1:30:17.960 Folks, who are absolute grizzly bear professionals and very invested 1:30:18.200 --> 1:30:23.600 in in grizzly bears, like, we had to shoot that 1:30:23.680 --> 1:30:27.240 grizzly bear. And when I took it upon myself to 1:30:27.280 --> 1:30:30.759 then inform the campers at that campsite that the reason 1:30:30.840 --> 1:30:33.320 that we had to shoot that grizzly bear was because 1:30:33.400 --> 1:30:38.120 they couldn't bring it upon themselves to take their watermelon 1:30:39.000 --> 1:30:42.160 thirty five yards to the garbage and put it away. 1:30:42.640 --> 1:30:49.400 They informed me that we had ruined their family vacation, right, 1:30:49.520 --> 1:30:53.880 And this is like it's the animal, really, I mean, 1:30:53.920 --> 1:30:56.880 it is the animal in North America. Like it is 1:30:56.920 --> 1:31:00.760 the thing that's referenced. It's a species that everybody's in 1:31:00.920 --> 1:31:04.240 awe of in one way or another. We're just at 1:31:04.280 --> 1:31:07.439 the talking back with the football players last night. I 1:31:07.520 --> 1:31:08.880 was talking with a bunch of them, you know. I 1:31:09.000 --> 1:31:12.560 was like, you know, there's still a large population of 1:31:12.680 --> 1:31:18.160 hunters in Montana, Wyoming, Idaho that they plan their hunts 1:31:19.240 --> 1:31:23.880 way around grizzly bears, Like, oh, this is a known 1:31:23.960 --> 1:31:27.040 grizzly bear area, We're not going to attempt to hunt there, 1:31:27.200 --> 1:31:29.519 fish there, or even apply for tags there. 1:31:29.920 --> 1:31:30.160 Good. 1:31:30.360 --> 1:31:35.800 And I'm like, we're you know, but there's plenty of 1:31:35.800 --> 1:31:38.880 people who don't think that way too. So that's why 1:31:39.280 --> 1:31:41.599 we were talking about displacing animals. Like a lot more 1:31:41.640 --> 1:31:44.920 people recreate in in bear territory, but. 1:31:45.240 --> 1:31:50.519 Let's move to dotter tags. So have an otter tack 1:31:51.479 --> 1:31:54.040 and You're like, this isn't going to become a normal problem, 1:31:54.920 --> 1:31:56.960 but it gets a lot of public attention. 1:31:58.200 --> 1:32:01.880 It does, and it's it's rare but more common than 1:32:01.920 --> 1:32:06.120 you think, right in a way. You know, the statistics 1:32:06.240 --> 1:32:09.760 change every year. But when I look at the reports 1:32:09.800 --> 1:32:13.879 of human animal attacks, the top three species in southwest 1:32:13.920 --> 1:32:17.320 Montana for just incidents reported to my staff, grizzly bears 1:32:17.400 --> 1:32:20.040 number one. What's number two? 1:32:20.120 --> 1:32:20.599 Black bears? 1:32:20.640 --> 1:32:26.320 Black bears, moose most is number two. Typically in most years, 1:32:26.360 --> 1:32:31.160 otters is number three. It doesn't mean there's dozens or 1:32:31.560 --> 1:32:34.320 hundreds of them, but just on average, there's a handful 1:32:34.400 --> 1:32:37.400 a couple every year. You know, usually usually we run 1:32:37.479 --> 1:32:43.240 into around ten grizzly incidents in this area. Depends changes 1:32:43.280 --> 1:32:45.680 every year that causes some sort of human injury or 1:32:45.760 --> 1:32:48.519 conflict or something like that. You know, a handful three 1:32:48.640 --> 1:32:51.640 four moose incidents where a moose stomps on somebody or 1:32:51.720 --> 1:32:54.719 kick somebody, and then you know one to three otter 1:32:54.800 --> 1:32:56.080 attacks probably every year. 1:32:56.280 --> 1:32:59.400 I know Anchorage has some had some real odd conflict, 1:32:59.680 --> 1:33:00.479 like some ters. 1:33:00.400 --> 1:33:01.200 Took over at park. 1:33:01.439 --> 1:33:05.760 Yeah, you know, and there was those hoters that were 1:33:05.840 --> 1:33:11.000 taking over that surf break somewhere on the West coast California. 1:33:11.320 --> 1:33:11.599 Sorry. 1:33:11.960 --> 1:33:15.799 Yeah, so they're getting they're like getting up on people's 1:33:15.840 --> 1:33:16.840 surfboards and. 1:33:19.160 --> 1:33:21.639 Oh yeah, man, hotter gang violence these days. 1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:25.120 Just yeah, So you did a lot of interviews about then. 1:33:26.040 --> 1:33:28.240 Oh that's all that happened. 1:33:28.360 --> 1:33:31.120 Yeah, the emergency alert systems. 1:33:31.200 --> 1:33:32.000 Of course it happened. 1:33:32.680 --> 1:33:35.200 Hey, I left my cell phone in the truck and 1:33:35.280 --> 1:33:36.760 it was going to be a distraction in here. 1:33:38.280 --> 1:33:39.040 Well they really did that. 1:33:39.720 --> 1:33:41.759 I remember reading that being that seems like a weird idea. 1:33:43.520 --> 1:33:47.519 It works, Yeah, that should be the noise when an 1:33:47.520 --> 1:33:48.320 otter's coming out. 1:33:49.800 --> 1:33:52.400 So there was an otter attack, and you got it 1:33:52.520 --> 1:33:55.760 was became a national news story, the last one, did 1:33:56.080 --> 1:33:58.479 you know, Uh, that's the first time I've seen an 1:33:58.520 --> 1:34:01.000 otter attack for US come national news. 1:34:01.120 --> 1:34:05.000 Yeah, I mean interviews with the Washington Post, La Times, 1:34:05.080 --> 1:34:07.439 It did an interview with Fox News Live and such. 1:34:07.800 --> 1:34:09.000 It was a pretty severe one. 1:34:09.160 --> 1:34:10.280 So what caught hold? 1:34:10.920 --> 1:34:13.000 Why did that grab the national attention the way it did? 1:34:13.240 --> 1:34:15.599 I think because of what you what you were kind 1:34:15.640 --> 1:34:18.479 of getting at is is the perceived rarity of the 1:34:18.560 --> 1:34:21.960 event and then the severity of the injuries. And you know, 1:34:22.320 --> 1:34:26.000 so I have an aunt who believes it's a conspiracy 1:34:26.120 --> 1:34:29.240 against otters. She believes that that we're making up all 1:34:29.320 --> 1:34:32.120 these otter attacks because how could such a cute, cuddly 1:34:32.200 --> 1:34:33.519 animal do such. 1:34:33.760 --> 1:34:35.160 She thinks you're trying to villainize. 1:34:35.160 --> 1:34:37.599 Oh yeah, for sure. And when I send her articles 1:34:37.760 --> 1:34:41.320 or a time we post a warning at a phishing 1:34:41.360 --> 1:34:44.280 exisite about an aggressive hotter, she just thinks it's all alive, 1:34:44.360 --> 1:34:47.040 because there's no way that Honors could ever do such. 1:34:47.080 --> 1:34:50.519 Well, what do you have to gain from villainizings is 1:34:50.520 --> 1:34:51.639 what I'm trying to figure out. 1:34:52.560 --> 1:34:56.280 Well, this is how I would do it. Okay, it 1:34:56.400 --> 1:35:00.120 is so dangerous that you can't have people floating and 1:35:00.200 --> 1:35:05.240 inner tubes or doing non angling activities like that. In fact, 1:35:05.320 --> 1:35:08.680 they can't use the boat ramps. They can't stand in 1:35:08.760 --> 1:35:10.519 the middle of the boat ramp while you're trying to 1:35:10.560 --> 1:35:11.240 back raft in. 1:35:12.640 --> 1:35:14.880 He's going to scare everybody away and then have the 1:35:15.000 --> 1:35:16.160 river all to himself. 1:35:17.320 --> 1:35:21.680 So, like we talked about humans displaced wildlife, and you know, 1:35:21.800 --> 1:35:24.080 we have a section of a river, the Lower Madison 1:35:24.160 --> 1:35:28.160 here that has a tuber hatch every every every summer when. 1:35:28.200 --> 1:35:31.360 Somewhere because that was not even sort of a thing. 1:35:32.520 --> 1:35:35.880 It word of mouth, you know, companies coming in and 1:35:36.040 --> 1:35:38.760 cater into it, big business or like that was. 1:35:39.040 --> 1:35:40.640 I mean, I always try to tell my kids when 1:35:40.640 --> 1:35:46.000 I'm driving along, I'm like, this just was not a thing. 1:35:46.280 --> 1:35:48.879 I don't but didn't you do that growing up in Michigan. 1:35:49.800 --> 1:35:50.200 Explain it? 1:35:50.280 --> 1:35:52.920 It's big in the East. So yeah, so I was recent. 1:35:52.960 --> 1:35:54.639 I just had this conversation my kids. I'm like, there's 1:35:54.640 --> 1:35:59.400 certain things that like when I moved to Montana nineteen 1:35:59.439 --> 1:36:00.639 ninety six, there. 1:36:00.600 --> 1:36:02.360 Were certain things that were not part of the culture 1:36:03.320 --> 1:36:03.960 ice fishing. 1:36:04.680 --> 1:36:08.640 They were woefully behind in ice fishing technology from a 1:36:08.640 --> 1:36:10.960 Midwest perspective, was like, they just don't know about it, 1:36:11.520 --> 1:36:15.680 and they did not know about tubin. They did not know. 1:36:16.439 --> 1:36:19.960 It had not occurred to Montanans that you would float 1:36:20.000 --> 1:36:21.000 down a river in a tube. 1:36:21.840 --> 1:36:24.320 But where I grew up, you'd skip school to do that. 1:36:25.040 --> 1:36:26.679 I mean it was baked into the culture. 1:36:27.240 --> 1:36:30.920 Tube yep. And you could rig your. 1:36:30.840 --> 1:36:32.400 Cooler in. 1:36:35.000 --> 1:36:38.280 The rivers, like a lot of the rivers kind of 1:36:38.400 --> 1:36:41.519 off limits to tubin, right, You'd just be doing pinball down. 1:36:41.400 --> 1:36:45.519 White water, drag your ass done and ever and. 1:36:47.439 --> 1:36:50.280 Do you get to ten miles and never hit a rock. 1:36:50.320 --> 1:36:54.280 Or the water temperatures really cold makes it uncomfortable exactly too. 1:36:54.320 --> 1:36:56.560 And where I grew up, I mean in August, and 1:36:56.680 --> 1:36:58.120 it's just like being in your bathtub. 1:36:59.000 --> 1:37:01.840 Well, the reason I bring it up as high concentration 1:37:02.000 --> 1:37:05.120 of tubers on that section of the river, which means 1:37:05.280 --> 1:37:09.439 low density of river otters, which means very few incidents 1:37:09.479 --> 1:37:12.320 of attacks. And where we see the attacks happen is 1:37:12.400 --> 1:37:16.479 when tubers decide the Lower Madison's too full and they 1:37:16.560 --> 1:37:19.880 go to other remote strections of rivers to get away 1:37:19.920 --> 1:37:23.840 from people. Less density of humans, higher chance that they 1:37:24.280 --> 1:37:26.320 that they might have an encounter with with an hoter. 1:37:26.800 --> 1:37:30.200 What do you think the otter's deal is again, I think. 1:37:30.080 --> 1:37:32.240 It's very similar to what we talked about before. Human 1:37:32.400 --> 1:37:35.040 and wildlife occupy trying to occupy the same space. 1:37:35.200 --> 1:37:37.639 Is there always pops involved? 1:37:37.960 --> 1:37:39.880 There can be, but it could be a food source, 1:37:39.960 --> 1:37:41.960 it could be you know, a den, it could be 1:37:42.080 --> 1:37:47.120 just a territorial attack. But it's it's humans and wildlife 1:37:47.160 --> 1:37:50.040 occupying the same space and the wildlife is saying this 1:37:50.160 --> 1:37:52.640 is my this is my area, Get out of it. 1:37:52.960 --> 1:37:56.360 And what moves does an otter use? What are they 1:37:56.479 --> 1:37:57.759 doing when they're. 1:37:59.120 --> 1:38:00.360 You know, when they're attacking. 1:38:00.439 --> 1:38:02.679 Yeah, like what is their sort of attack pattern? 1:38:02.920 --> 1:38:06.120 Well, I've never seen one happen myself. I've only helped 1:38:06.120 --> 1:38:12.240 clean up the mess afterwards. And thinking of otters are 1:38:12.840 --> 1:38:16.919 their predators? You know they got sharp claws, sharp teeth. 1:38:18.520 --> 1:38:19.040 Of the river. 1:38:19.160 --> 1:38:20.839 Well absolutely, listen. 1:38:20.760 --> 1:38:21.720 I would never ever. 1:38:22.200 --> 1:38:24.000 I was like, I believe that you don't want to 1:38:24.040 --> 1:38:29.560 fight any animal that has no legs, Like, you're not 1:38:29.560 --> 1:38:32.000 gonna grab grab my leg? Now, are you're doing any good? 1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:36.160 Like yeah, he's like no leg, holding him by the 1:38:36.200 --> 1:38:38.200 leg and lifting him up, he's just gonna be like 1:38:38.479 --> 1:38:39.759 mauling your arm and face. 1:38:39.880 --> 1:38:42.479 And how vulnerable are we in the water. That's not 1:38:42.760 --> 1:38:43.519 what our bodies. 1:38:43.880 --> 1:38:47.320 Someone's sitting in is not impressive. And someone like standing 1:38:47.439 --> 1:38:49.040 up walking down the trail, you know. 1:38:49.439 --> 1:38:50.840 I mean, do you remember when we saw the to 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:58.280 see otters mating in Southeast Alaska on that trip? Oh 1:38:58.400 --> 1:39:03.680 never mind, you saw them just doing their thing. You 1:39:03.760 --> 1:39:05.280 definitely don't want to get in a scrap with them, 1:39:05.360 --> 1:39:06.080 right because they're. 1:39:06.120 --> 1:39:06.799 Just the agility. 1:39:07.200 --> 1:39:10.280 Yeah, yeah, oh we saw this year we saw like 1:39:10.439 --> 1:39:15.400 thirty sea otters all together. It's like just just thinking 1:39:15.400 --> 1:39:17.000 about it's like if those things want to come over 1:39:17.040 --> 1:39:19.160 here and tussle, like thirty. 1:39:18.880 --> 1:39:19.960 Of them them. 1:39:20.080 --> 1:39:23.880 No, but they're primarily biting, correct. 1:39:23.960 --> 1:39:27.439 So the last one, you know, it just chance encounter. 1:39:27.800 --> 1:39:30.559 The ladies that were floating down the river weren't doing 1:39:30.600 --> 1:39:33.880 anything wrong. They're just floating down the river. They occupied 1:39:33.920 --> 1:39:38.280 the outer space. They you know from their description one 1:39:38.400 --> 1:39:41.280 to two otters. They're not sure, but the way they 1:39:41.320 --> 1:39:43.760 were attacking multiple people that made them think there was 1:39:43.800 --> 1:39:47.879 more than one otter. Typically they're attacking the tube itself, 1:39:48.640 --> 1:39:52.160 or legs and buttocks that are suspended in the water 1:39:52.240 --> 1:39:55.840 when you're in a tube. In this particular incident, one 1:39:55.880 --> 1:39:58.000 of the females fell off the tube or jumped off 1:39:58.040 --> 1:40:00.640 the tube, and I she was swimming, the came up 1:40:00.720 --> 1:40:02.760 and attacked her face. Now that her face is down 1:40:02.800 --> 1:40:04.800 on the water, and that's what caused the severity of 1:40:04.880 --> 1:40:05.439 the injuries. 1:40:05.600 --> 1:40:07.160 And uh, while swimming. 1:40:07.360 --> 1:40:09.320 Yeah, and she she got to the other side of 1:40:09.360 --> 1:40:12.200 the river. Her two friends got to the she she 1:40:12.320 --> 1:40:13.920 went to the remote side of the river where the 1:40:13.960 --> 1:40:17.559 two friends went to the highwayside. They called nine one one. 1:40:17.680 --> 1:40:21.040 A highway patrolman showed up first. Uh, this highway patrolman 1:40:21.160 --> 1:40:23.400 jumped in the river, swam the length of the river 1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:26.679 with aggressive otters in the river, and provided first aid 1:40:26.800 --> 1:40:29.240 to the severely injured gallon the other side while the 1:40:29.320 --> 1:40:32.280 helicopter was called. And we you know, we were the 1:40:32.360 --> 1:40:34.439 last ones on scene. By the time we got their 1:40:34.560 --> 1:40:37.840 deputy sheriffs, the highway patrolman and EMS staff had kind 1:40:37.840 --> 1:40:40.800 of taken care of this situation and provided the life 1:40:40.840 --> 1:40:43.120 saving attention. 1:40:43.760 --> 1:40:45.320 Was there any concern with rabies? 1:40:45.600 --> 1:40:48.600 There there can be depending on the behavior. You know, 1:40:49.400 --> 1:40:52.320 there has been incidents where we've attempted to trap and 1:40:52.439 --> 1:40:52.800 test them. 1:40:52.920 --> 1:40:54.080 We did not in this one. 1:40:54.240 --> 1:40:56.400 I was going to ask, is there an expectation to 1:40:56.600 --> 1:41:01.160 treat that aggressive river otter like you would aggressive grizzly bear? 1:41:01.720 --> 1:41:03.120 I want that trapped or. 1:41:03.479 --> 1:41:06.760 Well, again, it depends on behavior. If we if it's 1:41:07.240 --> 1:41:11.719 you know, if it's abnormal behavior, then yes we're gonna 1:41:11.840 --> 1:41:15.080 we're gonna probably take a hands on management action against it. 1:41:16.520 --> 1:41:20.920 But if it's normal behavior, which wild animals like otters 1:41:21.000 --> 1:41:23.880 protecting their territory is normal, we may not. 1:41:24.240 --> 1:41:26.760 So did you guys pull a DNA sample off that otter? No, 1:41:27.040 --> 1:41:28.800 we did not on that one, So you can't even 1:41:28.800 --> 1:41:30.120 compare them in the lineup later. 1:41:30.640 --> 1:41:33.800 There are so many good T shirt designs going through 1:41:33.840 --> 1:41:34.439 my head right now. 1:41:34.720 --> 1:41:37.320 Already sent an email to hunt I'm ahead of you. 1:41:37.640 --> 1:41:39.320 Can we move on from otters? 1:41:39.439 --> 1:41:39.920 You go for it? 1:41:40.880 --> 1:41:46.800 Tell me about uh, tell me about when when when 1:41:46.880 --> 1:41:47.519 you catch? 1:41:47.680 --> 1:41:52.439 When that wild game meet has made its way into 1:41:52.479 --> 1:41:56.800 the commercial market. Sure, what walk me through how you 1:41:56.920 --> 1:42:00.480 see that and what how does that happen and what's 1:42:00.479 --> 1:42:01.280 that wind up looking like? 1:42:01.400 --> 1:42:04.599 I think it's important to talk about why that's illegal first, 1:42:05.000 --> 1:42:07.040 or a little bit about the history. You know, you 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:10.800 guys have talked a lot about market hunting and the 1:42:11.000 --> 1:42:13.920 history of that and what it did to wildlife in 1:42:14.000 --> 1:42:17.400 North America. I think that's one piece of the puzzle, 1:42:17.640 --> 1:42:20.639 but it's an important piece. You know, as the West 1:42:20.800 --> 1:42:24.800 was being settled, agriculture wasn't heavily established in the West, 1:42:25.120 --> 1:42:28.519 and so you have people coming out here for to 1:42:28.640 --> 1:42:33.400 harvest fur bears and other wild game for exploration, for 1:42:33.560 --> 1:42:36.040 settlement as part of the Homestead Act, and also for 1:42:36.240 --> 1:42:40.080 gold extraction and exploration all those type of things, and 1:42:40.240 --> 1:42:44.880 agriculture kind of was a step behind, you know, and 1:42:45.040 --> 1:42:48.240 so there's a lot of people moving into there a 1:42:48.320 --> 1:42:51.040 lot more people than there was before. You know, obviously 1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:54.240 there was indigenous tribes here living in a sustainable nature 1:42:54.439 --> 1:42:58.200 manner on the landscape. But as the Western culture moved west, 1:42:59.840 --> 1:43:03.000 you know, there a food source was needed for all 1:43:03.120 --> 1:43:07.679 these people, and wildlife was easily identified in the beginning 1:43:07.880 --> 1:43:12.960 as it was abundant as a resource, and for different reasons, 1:43:13.040 --> 1:43:15.680 some of it was harvested through market hunting, some of 1:43:15.720 --> 1:43:20.599 it was just just subsistence. You know, a huge amount 1:43:20.640 --> 1:43:23.759 of subsistence hunting occurred in Montana and other Western states 1:43:24.320 --> 1:43:28.120 as gold panters and trappers and others were establishing themselves 1:43:28.200 --> 1:43:33.519 out here or agriculture was getting established. That led to 1:43:33.600 --> 1:43:36.880 a severe decimation of wildlife. You know, you're talking by 1:43:36.920 --> 1:43:40.920 the late eighteen hundreds, there was hardly hardly anything left 1:43:41.000 --> 1:43:43.000 in Montana. Elks. 1:43:43.200 --> 1:43:47.400 Interesting irony is a I pointed this out on this 1:43:47.479 --> 1:43:51.840 project we're working on about commercial hunters, is that the 1:43:51.880 --> 1:43:57.840 Boone and Crocket Club takes its name from two commercial hunters. Yeah, 1:43:58.720 --> 1:44:00.960 but the first order of business for the Boon and 1:44:01.040 --> 1:44:07.080 Crockett Club was going after the commercial sale of gaminget Sure. 1:44:07.360 --> 1:44:09.759 It's like a weird, absolutely sort. 1:44:09.560 --> 1:44:11.320 Of conflict built within the name. 1:44:11.520 --> 1:44:15.200 I imagine two commercial hunters had a good perspective. I 1:44:15.280 --> 1:44:19.360 mean they saw that their industry or livelihood was dying, 1:44:20.080 --> 1:44:23.320 you know, as just game became more scarce. 1:44:24.400 --> 1:44:27.639 Well, it's definitely like the story for commercial waterfowl hunters 1:44:27.680 --> 1:44:29.920 were the ones who were like, do you know that 1:44:30.000 --> 1:44:31.120 there's no birds left? 1:44:31.400 --> 1:44:31.519 Oh? 1:44:31.560 --> 1:44:33.000 They pointed that out right. 1:44:33.439 --> 1:44:33.679 Yeah. 1:44:34.560 --> 1:44:39.479 But I think also it is a livelihood lifestyle thing too, 1:44:39.600 --> 1:44:44.439 where it's like we've been living this life for so long, 1:44:45.880 --> 1:44:47.680 you know, it's like we got to figure out how 1:44:47.720 --> 1:44:50.400 to make sure that it sticks around, because I can't imagine, 1:44:51.920 --> 1:44:53.960 you know, going back to school and getting a desk 1:44:54.080 --> 1:44:57.280 job after running my punt gun every night for the 1:44:57.400 --> 1:44:58.120 last five years. 1:44:58.320 --> 1:45:02.880 Do you think about the the first Western settlers to 1:45:02.960 --> 1:45:06.920 come to Montana and just the abundance that was here, 1:45:07.560 --> 1:45:11.200 you know. I back in college took a class where 1:45:11.240 --> 1:45:14.200 we just read the loosen Clerk Journals for a whole semester, 1:45:15.360 --> 1:45:18.640 every single page, and I was really stuck by a 1:45:18.760 --> 1:45:23.320 description at Pompey's Pillar east of Billings on the Yellowstone River, 1:45:23.439 --> 1:45:26.439 where they described standing on that pillar and seeing the 1:45:26.520 --> 1:45:31.040 abundance of herds of elk, buffalo, and wolves just just 1:45:31.160 --> 1:45:33.360 surrounded by them as they were looking out on the 1:45:33.560 --> 1:45:38.040 short grass prairie that surrounded that river valley. You can 1:45:38.080 --> 1:45:41.599 go and visit that site now, and that day's journal 1:45:41.720 --> 1:45:45.080 from I think July of eighteen o five, eighteen oh 1:45:45.160 --> 1:45:48.800 six somewhere around there is etched on Pompey's pillar. And 1:45:48.840 --> 1:45:51.160 when you read that and then look around and see 1:45:51.200 --> 1:45:53.880 the change in the landscape, you're not gonna see any elk, 1:45:54.000 --> 1:45:55.680 You're not going to see any wolves for sure, and 1:45:55.800 --> 1:45:59.840 you won't see buffalo unless they're ranch buffalo. The landscape 1:46:00.080 --> 1:46:06.000 dramatically changed quickly in one hundred years, and our agency Fish, 1:46:06.040 --> 1:46:10.160 Wildlife and parks and the statutes and rules that govern it, 1:46:10.840 --> 1:46:13.800 and that also led to this great resurgence of wildlife. 1:46:16.280 --> 1:46:20.360 We're in reaction to basically that loss of wildlife and 1:46:20.520 --> 1:46:22.439 set a lot of groundwork for the work that we 1:46:22.560 --> 1:46:29.080 do now to include investigating commercial harvest of wildlife and such. 1:46:31.400 --> 1:46:36.280 You know, a quick history of wildlife law. You know, 1:46:36.560 --> 1:46:39.720 eighteen late eighteen sixties is when the first kind of 1:46:39.760 --> 1:46:43.559 wildlife law was enacted in Montana. He had early nineteen 1:46:43.640 --> 1:46:47.200 hundreds of the Lacy Act, the Pittman Robertson Act and such. 1:46:47.800 --> 1:46:51.920 But the history of conservation law and regulation in Montana 1:46:52.040 --> 1:46:58.840 starts with decimation, then laws created in response, and then 1:46:58.960 --> 1:47:01.120 enforcement of those law. So if you think about the 1:47:01.240 --> 1:47:03.840 history of the agency, it started with one game warden 1:47:04.520 --> 1:47:07.280 and some fishing game laws, and then slowly more game 1:47:07.360 --> 1:47:10.360 wardens were added. Game wardeners who patrolled an area of 1:47:10.439 --> 1:47:15.760 like eighteen thousand square miles alone by themselves, but there 1:47:15.840 --> 1:47:18.560 was no wildlife staff. There was no management. You know, 1:47:19.040 --> 1:47:23.040 the local university MSU didn't start their wildlife management program 1:47:23.160 --> 1:47:26.000 until the nineteen thirties, So you had this span of 1:47:26.200 --> 1:47:29.040 thirty years where the way we managed wildlife was just 1:47:29.240 --> 1:47:32.960 law and enforcement, and then without a Leopold and others, 1:47:33.040 --> 1:47:37.479 it switched to more of a management habitat restoration. And 1:47:37.720 --> 1:47:40.759 through that, all this trial and air, those seven pillars 1:47:40.840 --> 1:47:44.320 of tenants of the North American model were developed, not 1:47:44.520 --> 1:47:47.440 because one person wrote them down like the ten Commandments, 1:47:47.560 --> 1:47:49.800 you know, up on high on a piece of slavistone, 1:47:49.880 --> 1:47:52.920 but through trial and air figuring out what worked. And 1:47:53.040 --> 1:47:57.919 one of those tenants is elimination of unregulated commercial harvest 1:47:58.120 --> 1:48:03.160 commercial markets. And why I say unregulated is there's still 1:48:03.200 --> 1:48:08.720 commercial markets for public resources right. There's there's you know, 1:48:09.080 --> 1:48:12.639 ore and oil extraction that occurs on public lands. There's 1:48:12.680 --> 1:48:15.760 timber harvest, and there's also a huge fisheries industry in 1:48:15.880 --> 1:48:18.800 many states that has a commercial aspect to it. 1:48:19.000 --> 1:48:21.320 Can sell wild mushrooms, you can sell elk antlers, you 1:48:21.360 --> 1:48:22.360 can sell kiowa. 1:48:22.080 --> 1:48:26.200 Hid There still is a role firehood. Yeah, exactly, exactly. 1:48:26.280 --> 1:48:29.080 There's there's all sorts of public resources that still can 1:48:29.200 --> 1:48:33.840 be extracted commercially and sold commercially. But there's there's resources 1:48:33.880 --> 1:48:38.320 that we've identified that can't sustain a commercial market, and 1:48:38.960 --> 1:48:41.479 large wildlife ungulates and such as one of them that 1:48:41.560 --> 1:48:45.080 it's pretty universal. You know, there's there's game farms that 1:48:45.160 --> 1:48:48.040 have developed to meet that demand of people who don't hunt, 1:48:48.120 --> 1:48:50.240 that do want to eat elk and buffalo and other 1:48:50.320 --> 1:48:52.719 things that that they can't go out and hunt themselves. 1:48:52.800 --> 1:48:56.960 But for wild resources, that elimination of commercial markets was 1:48:57.080 --> 1:49:02.599 really key to allowing the restoration to occur. I don't 1:49:02.640 --> 1:49:04.720 know what the future holds. Maybe we get to a 1:49:04.800 --> 1:49:10.080 point where hunting participation is so low and wildlife populations 1:49:10.080 --> 1:49:13.000 are so abundant, you could see commercial markets come back 1:49:13.040 --> 1:49:15.280 in a certain state. But right now, for where we are. 1:49:15.800 --> 1:49:17.160 It's just just not feasible. 1:49:17.360 --> 1:49:23.320 When I've tried to express this to people, like as 1:49:23.400 --> 1:49:25.280 many deer as we seem to have, but then you 1:49:25.360 --> 1:49:28.439 try to express like the frailty of deer would be 1:49:28.560 --> 1:49:31.360 that if every American put a deer in their freezer tomorrow, 1:49:31.960 --> 1:49:36.320 we'd have a a two hundred and sixty million deer deficit. Yeah. 1:49:37.840 --> 1:49:40.760 Yeah, it's just it's not They're not there. 1:49:41.479 --> 1:49:44.600 I think something really important to remember is is the 1:49:44.680 --> 1:49:49.600 green revolution in agriculture has helped save wildlife in a 1:49:49.640 --> 1:49:53.680 way because we've found other food sources. You know, one 1:49:53.760 --> 1:49:56.400 hundred and fifty years ago, when in Montana the primary 1:49:56.479 --> 1:50:01.400 food source for protein at least was wild life with 1:50:01.560 --> 1:50:04.800 a population, a human population, you know, a tenth or 1:50:04.920 --> 1:50:09.160 less of what it is now, it wasn't sustainable, totally white. 1:50:09.200 --> 1:50:11.680 They ate them. Yeah, you're right, they ate them into oblivion. 1:50:12.000 --> 1:50:14.679 I mean, even just having like the gold mining towns. 1:50:14.840 --> 1:50:17.960 Yeah, absolutely, yeah, you know, and obviously there was there's 1:50:18.040 --> 1:50:20.519 other things. They were harvested for fur and things like that. 1:50:20.680 --> 1:50:24.360 There was predators killed just because they were viewed as pets. 1:50:24.479 --> 1:50:27.120 There's you know, and there's lots of other things that 1:50:27.200 --> 1:50:31.599 occurred from the use of pesticides, the habitat fragmentation, all 1:50:31.640 --> 1:50:35.920 those type of things to you know, the extraction of 1:50:36.000 --> 1:50:38.800 resources and the way it was done that changed habitats 1:50:38.840 --> 1:50:43.040 and healthy ecosystems. But a huge part of that impact 1:50:43.280 --> 1:50:49.400 was was commercial markets for meat or just people harvesting 1:50:49.479 --> 1:50:53.680 meat for food. You think about how poor, particularly the 1:50:53.800 --> 1:50:56.800 state was back then. People escaping the dust bowl, the 1:50:57.560 --> 1:51:03.080 Great Depression, you know, huge sections of drought again, agriculture 1:51:03.200 --> 1:51:06.520 markets not established. Another thing to think about is transportation. 1:51:07.200 --> 1:51:10.080 You know, a huge reason why we have cheap food 1:51:10.160 --> 1:51:12.320 now or I know food prices have gone up, is 1:51:13.240 --> 1:51:17.640 huge if increased efficiencies in transportation and how you know, 1:51:17.720 --> 1:51:19.840 we don't have to grow cabbage in the Gallaton Valley 1:51:19.840 --> 1:51:22.519 anymore sweet peas because we can get it somewhere else where. 1:51:22.560 --> 1:51:24.680 They can grow it more efficiently and it's cheap to 1:51:24.760 --> 1:51:28.479 ship it to us. That's changed a huge amount. And 1:51:28.520 --> 1:51:31.400 if you think about transportation roles back then, you know, 1:51:31.479 --> 1:51:33.320 how long did it take you to get from Missouri 1:51:33.439 --> 1:51:36.759 to Bozone, Montana? You know, a whole season, a whole summer, 1:51:36.760 --> 1:51:39.519 and probably three of your party, your six person party 1:51:39.600 --> 1:51:42.479 died along the way. You know, it's the old Oregon 1:51:42.560 --> 1:51:48.200 Trail game we all played in grade school. All those 1:51:48.280 --> 1:51:55.560 things have changed to allow us to now have vibrant populations, 1:51:55.640 --> 1:52:00.680 sustainable populations that also have an intrinsic value. You know, 1:52:00.760 --> 1:52:03.439 one hundred and fifty years ago, I very few people 1:52:03.520 --> 1:52:06.160 probably looked at wildlife. It's just appreciating that it was 1:52:06.240 --> 1:52:08.400 there and the beauty of it. It was looked at 1:52:08.479 --> 1:52:11.599 as a commodity, as something that either could be sold, 1:52:11.680 --> 1:52:14.559 embartered with or something that could feed my family make 1:52:14.600 --> 1:52:17.560 sure I didn't starve this year. And because we have 1:52:17.680 --> 1:52:21.120 all these developments in Western society and human culture, from 1:52:21.200 --> 1:52:25.320 transportation to agriculture, we can now take that item that 1:52:25.479 --> 1:52:29.120 was only viewed as just value commercially, and now it 1:52:29.240 --> 1:52:33.639 has value for leisure or just intrinsic value that exists. 1:52:34.760 --> 1:52:38.760 We talked about grizzybear conflicts and such, and every time 1:52:38.880 --> 1:52:43.400 we remove a species, or not a species, but remove 1:52:43.439 --> 1:52:46.600 an animal from the population, there's people that disagree with 1:52:46.720 --> 1:52:49.120 that decision, and a lot of them don't live here. 1:52:49.400 --> 1:52:51.280 A lot of calls and emails I get are from 1:52:51.320 --> 1:52:54.479 people from somewhere else that are upset we killed a grizzybear. 1:52:54.560 --> 1:52:57.680 Mountainline that was in conflict. Those people don't view that 1:52:58.200 --> 1:53:02.920 animal as a commercial commodity, but they have intrinsic. 1:53:02.520 --> 1:53:03.040 Value to it. 1:53:03.600 --> 1:53:06.560 They like the idea that it exists, just to know 1:53:06.840 --> 1:53:09.800 that this wild animal exists in this wild, amazing place, 1:53:10.760 --> 1:53:13.800 and that's something new in society that I don't think 1:53:13.840 --> 1:53:16.720 has really been here for a while. That's that's really 1:53:16.880 --> 1:53:19.320 led to a lot of the foundation of where we 1:53:19.400 --> 1:53:25.960 are in the success of wildlife conservation. But yeah, so 1:53:26.120 --> 1:53:30.519 getting back to commercial markets. So in Montana is in 1:53:30.680 --> 1:53:35.320 most states it's illegal to sell game meat. There are 1:53:35.400 --> 1:53:37.760 certain parts of animal that you can you can sell 1:53:37.800 --> 1:53:40.240 and trade in Montana. Now the rules are different for 1:53:40.360 --> 1:53:43.320 every state. In Montana, you could sell the hide, you 1:53:43.400 --> 1:53:46.679 could sell bones, you could sell antlers, but you can't 1:53:46.800 --> 1:53:50.920 sell or meet so commercially. So if you had a 1:53:51.280 --> 1:53:56.519 had a restaurant that was advertising come eat wild game meat, 1:53:58.080 --> 1:53:59.400 if it's truly wild, it. 1:53:59.400 --> 1:54:00.400 Would be legal. 1:54:00.600 --> 1:54:01.840 Is it ever as overt as that. 1:54:03.040 --> 1:54:07.840 It depends, it can be. We've seen some restaurants that 1:54:08.120 --> 1:54:14.920 have public menus, so if the group of us went 1:54:14.960 --> 1:54:17.120 in there, they'd give us the menu that's on their website. 1:54:18.479 --> 1:54:21.759 And then we've seen restaurants that have a private menu. 1:54:22.080 --> 1:54:22.479 Is that right. 1:54:23.000 --> 1:54:28.120 We have restaurants that sometimes have contracted with tour companies 1:54:28.200 --> 1:54:30.519 and such, and they may shut down for the day. 1:54:30.600 --> 1:54:32.640 Maybe you go there and they're closed, but it's filled 1:54:32.680 --> 1:54:34.600 with a lot of people, looks like a private party 1:54:34.640 --> 1:54:37.240 and there's a tour bus outside. They may be eating 1:54:37.360 --> 1:54:39.880 on a different menu. It depends on the restaurant. Every 1:54:39.960 --> 1:54:42.920 restaurant's different. But we've investigated restaurant. 1:54:43.760 --> 1:54:45.000 Slip me one of those menus. 1:54:45.920 --> 1:54:48.600 I mean, I just I just like to see like 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:49.560 written down. 1:54:50.040 --> 1:54:54.240 Sure you've seen it written down, there's give me an 1:54:54.280 --> 1:54:56.080 example of what you've seen. I just want to know, 1:54:56.200 --> 1:54:58.560 Like you don't need exact word, but give me example 1:54:58.560 --> 1:55:00.760 of what you've seen, like actually written down on the menu. 1:55:00.960 --> 1:55:04.600 Wildfish is a really popular one. So wild trout. 1:55:04.560 --> 1:55:07.440 Yep, Wild trout yep, Local River yep. 1:55:07.680 --> 1:55:10.920 Exactly exactly. And we have had cases where we have 1:55:12.360 --> 1:55:15.440 where where we have you know, it's a it's a 1:55:15.520 --> 1:55:18.040 mix and how we get and start our investigations on 1:55:18.160 --> 1:55:21.480 these restaurants. Some of them is somebody sees that menu 1:55:21.760 --> 1:55:24.680 or has offered it and reports it to us. Some 1:55:24.840 --> 1:55:26.960 of it's written down, some of it's verbal, you know, 1:55:27.200 --> 1:55:30.560 but someone gets offered a dish they know or thinks 1:55:30.640 --> 1:55:33.160 is illegal and they call us. We've also run into 1:55:33.240 --> 1:55:37.240 instances where we catch people fishing or hunting out there 1:55:37.720 --> 1:55:40.280 that are attached to a restaurant. They're keeping large amount 1:55:40.320 --> 1:55:44.120 of over limits and once we dig into it, they're 1:55:44.200 --> 1:55:47.200 out there providing food for that restaurant. 1:55:47.480 --> 1:55:51.720 Got it. Uh, this is a long time. 1:55:51.600 --> 1:55:57.280 Ago, hypothetically, since passed. 1:55:58.600 --> 1:56:00.360 Seven years ago. 1:56:00.400 --> 1:56:05.120 I had a friend that was approached about a was 1:56:05.200 --> 1:56:11.800 approached about bear, a bear paw, and they misunderstood and 1:56:11.880 --> 1:56:13.960 they thought they wanted so they went and had a 1:56:14.080 --> 1:56:17.360 old they had an old bear rug and they brought 1:56:17.440 --> 1:56:21.000 them a claw off an old bear rug. And the 1:56:21.080 --> 1:56:22.800 restaurant tour was like, no, no, no, no. 1:56:22.880 --> 1:56:24.640 No, that's not what I meant. 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:28.400 That's like, oh my goodness, that's what I mean. 1:56:29.320 --> 1:56:33.440 Bear pas soup is popular and a lot of Asian cultures. Yeah, 1:56:34.200 --> 1:56:38.040 you know, same with gold dishes or powders or ointments 1:56:38.120 --> 1:56:41.440 made with gold bladders. Those are probably the two most 1:56:41.720 --> 1:56:44.800 popular trafficked items for bears. There's also a market for 1:56:44.920 --> 1:56:48.680 bear meat for sure, and there's legitimate places you can 1:56:48.760 --> 1:56:51.640 get bear meat you know a recent case we had 1:56:51.920 --> 1:56:55.360 there are well, yeah, in some states you can you 1:56:55.480 --> 1:57:00.280 can legitimately raise raise bears. So one case we had 1:57:00.360 --> 1:57:01.480 in a local restaurant. 1:57:01.160 --> 1:57:04.680 Again and someone's commercially raising bears in the US as. 1:57:04.640 --> 1:57:06.600 Far as I know, I don't remember what state this 1:57:06.720 --> 1:57:08.480 one was from, but we had a case that was 1:57:08.560 --> 1:57:12.880 referred to US where a USDA inspector or it was 1:57:12.960 --> 1:57:15.800 a Health and Human Services inspector went to do their 1:57:15.880 --> 1:57:20.720 inspection of the kitchen and found packaged meat that was 1:57:20.840 --> 1:57:23.960 labeled bear and reported to US. And as we digged 1:57:24.000 --> 1:57:26.920 around that bear meat had come from a legitimate source, 1:57:26.960 --> 1:57:30.000 which kind of shocked us at the time too. You know, 1:57:30.080 --> 1:57:33.680 in other countries there's definitely markets for it. Bare bile 1:57:33.840 --> 1:57:36.760 is a huge industry in some other countries, and there 1:57:37.640 --> 1:57:39.800 really sickening bear bile farms. 1:57:39.960 --> 1:57:42.440 Yeah, my kids told me about that and showed me 1:57:42.440 --> 1:57:45.000 a thing about it. Where does it stand right now? 1:57:45.240 --> 1:57:47.680 This is one of the more confusing things I found 1:57:47.720 --> 1:57:54.360 in terms of trying to stop the commercial market. Is 1:57:54.480 --> 1:57:56.800 for a while it was you'll know this better than me. 1:57:56.920 --> 1:58:01.320 But for a while it was that that you if 1:58:01.360 --> 1:58:05.400 you killed a black bear, so you legally kill black 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:07.480 bear and you basically you have this like contract where 1:58:07.520 --> 1:58:09.480 you tag it. It's it becomes your property and it's 1:58:09.560 --> 1:58:14.040 transferred from to your personal possession. But you couldn't have 1:58:15.760 --> 1:58:18.200 You couldn't possess the gallbladder from the bear. 1:58:19.560 --> 1:58:20.120 Is that correct? 1:58:21.320 --> 1:58:23.480 Not in Montana? So you can possess it, you just 1:58:23.520 --> 1:58:24.640 can't commercially sell it. 1:58:25.360 --> 1:58:27.080 So you haven't heard it, like I feel like there's 1:58:27.120 --> 1:58:31.960 someplace you like you Okay, so you could you could 1:58:32.080 --> 1:58:34.880 have your own and do with it what you will. Correct, 1:58:35.760 --> 1:58:37.160 And I could give it to a buddy of mine 1:58:37.200 --> 1:58:41.760 if he wanted it. Okay, you cannot cannot sell it? Yeah? Yeah? 1:58:42.080 --> 1:58:45.000 And then I got a Montana question. It's not about bears, 1:58:45.800 --> 1:58:50.520 since rabbits and squirrels aren't game animals. Could I set 1:58:50.600 --> 1:58:54.960 up a rabbit and squirrel taco stand and not be 1:58:55.040 --> 1:58:55.600 breaking the whole? 1:58:56.880 --> 1:58:57.440 Yes, so. 1:58:59.120 --> 1:59:01.680 I would not have any regulatory authority over it. You 1:59:01.720 --> 1:59:04.440 would not from But there I imagine there are other 1:59:04.520 --> 1:59:05.760 agencies that do you. 1:59:05.880 --> 1:59:07.360 I think I think that that's when it becomes the 1:59:07.480 --> 1:59:12.320 USDA's big Oh yeah, because they got USDs. Is not 1:59:12.400 --> 1:59:14.240 because you're selling uninspected meat? 1:59:15.000 --> 1:59:15.360 Gotcha? 1:59:16.000 --> 1:59:18.160 Good idea though, what if you do get inspected? 1:59:19.320 --> 1:59:19.920 What will they? 1:59:20.920 --> 1:59:22.600 So, so let me tell you this. 1:59:22.920 --> 1:59:25.760 Years ago, I was going through a fact checking process 1:59:25.800 --> 1:59:28.920 with a magazine and I pointed out that it's illegal 1:59:30.120 --> 1:59:34.120 to it's illegal to sell dog meat in America. The 1:59:34.200 --> 1:59:37.320 fact checkers like, show me where how that where? That's true? 1:59:38.920 --> 1:59:41.160 And the want of beings it's only illegal in two states. 1:59:42.240 --> 1:59:44.280 It was illegal at that time. It was illegal to 1:59:44.320 --> 1:59:46.720 sell dog meat by state law in New York, and 1:59:46.760 --> 1:59:48.760 it was illegal to sell dog meat in California. So 1:59:48.840 --> 1:59:51.280 they're like, well, why isn't it for sale everywhere? They won't. 1:59:51.400 --> 1:59:54.160 USDA is not going to inspect it, and state inspectors 1:59:54.200 --> 1:59:55.760 won't inspect it. And they say that they don't have 1:59:55.920 --> 1:59:59.760 any they don't have any sort of like inspection rules 1:59:59.840 --> 2:00:01.920 on it. So if you wanted to bring it into 2:00:01.960 --> 2:00:05.120 the supply chain, they don't have it, Like. 2:00:05.120 --> 2:00:06.240 What are they even looking for? 2:00:06.800 --> 2:00:13.160 So if you somehow petitioned the USDA successfully to establish 2:00:13.280 --> 2:00:17.480 dog inspection criteria and at that time in forty eight states, 2:00:17.560 --> 2:00:19.920 no one would be breaking a law. And and and 2:00:20.040 --> 2:00:21.360 I and I even looked at this, it'd be like 2:00:21.440 --> 2:00:23.680 that you could feasibly somehow you got it inspected. You 2:00:23.720 --> 2:00:25.240 could walk into a grocery store and ever be a 2:00:25.320 --> 2:00:28.040 pack of ground dog beat and it's not like actually 2:00:28.160 --> 2:00:29.320 breaking a law, and. 2:00:29.360 --> 2:00:31.440 Then the next legislative session it'll. 2:00:31.200 --> 2:00:33.920 Be yeah, that's yeah, well that's what. That's what in 2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:36.800 my in my research spots is the reason it had 2:00:36.840 --> 2:00:39.440 turned up in New York California is because it had 2:00:39.480 --> 2:00:41.520 become an issue, and it had become an issue and 2:00:41.600 --> 2:00:46.960 someone had overcome whatever like inspection hurdles. So it might 2:00:47.080 --> 2:00:48.960 be that you you know, and I don't know at 2:00:48.960 --> 2:00:52.760 what point and uh production, I don't know what point 2:00:52.800 --> 2:00:55.960 in industry. I know that I remember ten years ago 2:00:56.040 --> 2:00:59.920 when I was invested in this subject. The the bike 2:01:00.120 --> 2:01:07.720 an industry was an obstacle to its growth was inspection, right, 2:01:07.840 --> 2:01:10.560 like getting their goods inspected for interstate travel. 2:01:11.800 --> 2:01:15.320 Like Texas is they're inspecting animals, yep. 2:01:15.440 --> 2:01:18.040 But a lot of that stuff can't leave Texas, okay, 2:01:18.280 --> 2:01:21.800 you know, so they'll have there's certain commercial there's certain 2:01:22.120 --> 2:01:27.280 legitimately wild game resources like hogs nil guy that can 2:01:27.360 --> 2:01:31.680 be inspected in Texas, but they're not suitable for interstate gotcha. 2:01:32.720 --> 2:01:35.920 So they're they're all consumed in state and and there 2:01:36.080 --> 2:01:38.600 the state has done like what we're talking about, the 2:01:38.640 --> 2:01:42.880 state has built up capability and complied with demand of 2:01:42.920 --> 2:01:45.000 an industry that's like, hey, we have this resource, we'd 2:01:45.040 --> 2:01:46.680 like to fit you to. You know, we're petitioning you 2:01:46.760 --> 2:01:49.240 to figure out how to inspect it. But very it 2:01:49.320 --> 2:01:51.840 can be very expensive for the producer because you need 2:01:51.880 --> 2:01:57.000 to pay the inspector. Ye, so that hasn't happened with 2:01:58.040 --> 2:01:59.680 squirrels and rabbits. 2:02:01.200 --> 2:02:03.120 I'm just trying to think about my retirement. 2:02:03.640 --> 2:02:07.040 So you let's say, let's say Brody starts his squirrel 2:02:07.040 --> 2:02:09.520 and rabbit place up and all of a sudden, he's 2:02:09.520 --> 2:02:10.720 down there at there, what's that place? 2:02:10.800 --> 2:02:11.880 That gravel parking lot. 2:02:13.480 --> 2:02:16.680 Brody's down there's like Brody's Wild Squirrel Tacos. And you're 2:02:16.760 --> 2:02:19.160 driving by and you see that. You think to yourself, 2:02:19.400 --> 2:02:24.040 that's not my problem, but. 2:02:24.120 --> 2:02:28.840 It could become. So, you know, it depends on how 2:02:28.880 --> 2:02:32.080 successful his business is and what impact they would have 2:02:32.200 --> 2:02:35.480 to the squirrel and rabbit population. So right now those 2:02:35.480 --> 2:02:39.080 species are unregulated. You know, you can hunt them twenty 2:02:39.160 --> 2:02:42.440 four seven three sixty five without a license with no 2:02:42.640 --> 2:02:46.520 bag limit right now because demand is so low, exactly, But. 2:02:46.640 --> 2:02:47.880 If you that's the reason. 2:02:47.960 --> 2:02:48.240 I thought. 2:02:48.280 --> 2:02:51.880 The reason is because they were non natives and they're classified. 2:02:53.000 --> 2:02:59.680 Kind squirrels, oh, cottontail, rabbits, badgers, there's non nature fox. 2:03:00.160 --> 2:03:02.240 Okay, now I didn't You didn't mention. 2:03:02.160 --> 2:03:04.680 All those you could be thought pine squirrels or not. 2:03:04.840 --> 2:03:08.440 Now no, I thought that fox squirrel. So think about 2:03:08.960 --> 2:03:09.440 Oh he's. 2:03:09.320 --> 2:03:10.120 Having a pine squirrel. 2:03:11.320 --> 2:03:12.360 Oh, fox squirrels too. 2:03:12.960 --> 2:03:15.360 So so to your point, like, we may have a 2:03:15.480 --> 2:03:20.160 fishing regulation on a body of water where unlimited take 2:03:20.320 --> 2:03:23.200 of say northerns or something like that, that doesn't mean 2:03:23.280 --> 2:03:26.520 they're there and there's a huge population. That's what sometimes 2:03:26.600 --> 2:03:29.320 the public thinks. That's because we don't want them there. 2:03:29.360 --> 2:03:33.560 And so yeah, harvest as many as you want. The 2:03:33.680 --> 2:03:37.200 non regulation, it just kind of depends, Uh, it's whether 2:03:37.280 --> 2:03:39.760 or not the public value is it and what the 2:03:39.880 --> 2:03:42.600 interest is you guys keep pushing squirrel hunting here is 2:03:42.760 --> 2:03:46.600 a great pastime. Eventually squirrel harvest is going to increase. Right, 2:03:47.040 --> 2:03:51.400 it's all the people, you know, and and maybe we 2:03:51.560 --> 2:03:54.680 might have to regulate it. Typically, you know, laws aren't 2:03:54.760 --> 2:03:58.520 created to anticipate a problem. It happens, but rarely it's 2:03:58.600 --> 2:04:00.520 usually in response to a problem. 2:04:01.120 --> 2:04:03.600 And so someone pointed out to be the inherent lag. 2:04:04.320 --> 2:04:07.680 Oh, there is, for sure, there's a problematic lag where 2:04:08.120 --> 2:04:11.520 especially with technological issues. Some almost pointed out that like 2:04:12.600 --> 2:04:15.960 technologies are adopted quicker than the legislation can address them, 2:04:16.000 --> 2:04:17.040 which creates conflicts. 2:04:17.120 --> 2:04:19.200 Sometimes they try and get ahead, but it's I think 2:04:19.240 --> 2:04:21.960 it's hard to justify or garner support for a law 2:04:22.080 --> 2:04:25.440 that is addressing a problem that isn't there or isn't 2:04:25.880 --> 2:04:28.160 you know, as prolificit as we as we think it is. 2:04:29.200 --> 2:04:32.640 So government definitely in that way is slow to respond. 2:04:32.720 --> 2:04:35.680 And there's a process. Our legislature only meets every two years, 2:04:36.200 --> 2:04:39.320 you know, it takes building support and and how it 2:04:39.480 --> 2:04:42.440 kind of works is typically the legislature makes a law, 2:04:42.560 --> 2:04:46.640 but it's not it's not very descriptive or it's not 2:04:46.880 --> 2:04:49.960 very specific. It's saying we we a lot of times 2:04:50.040 --> 2:04:53.960 it's we authorize this executive branch department to regulate this thing. 2:04:54.440 --> 2:04:56.560 They need to make rules on how to regulate. So 2:04:56.680 --> 2:05:00.520 then the Wildlife Commission will create those rules and then 2:05:00.640 --> 2:05:03.320 we'll implement new laws and then it'll change based on 2:05:03.400 --> 2:05:07.120 how that implementation went. So that lag or time it 2:05:07.200 --> 2:05:10.440 takes to implement or regulate something can take multiple years Earl. 2:05:10.600 --> 2:05:12.360 Yeah, and there's like a fine tuning and it gets 2:05:12.360 --> 2:05:15.600 frustrated people. I remember the first time it was long 2:05:15.840 --> 2:05:20.760 long ago, the first time two way communications, it was 2:05:22.640 --> 2:05:26.320 very blanket and it would have basically been that. I 2:05:26.360 --> 2:05:28.840 remember one of the arguments was I could be hunting 2:05:28.880 --> 2:05:31.760 with my eighty year old father and I can't put 2:05:31.800 --> 2:05:33.880 him in his blind and give him a walkie talkie 2:05:33.920 --> 2:05:35.400 to let me know if he's having a heart attack. 2:05:36.440 --> 2:05:40.520 And then the next year, right, they tweak it and 2:05:40.520 --> 2:05:43.600 then eventually hit on a spot that everyone can agree with. 2:05:44.080 --> 2:05:47.120 I think that some people look at those and they 2:05:47.200 --> 2:05:51.080 get mad, sure, and don't look at those as hey, 2:05:51.200 --> 2:05:53.240 we're figuring this thing out and kind of fine tuning 2:05:53.280 --> 2:05:55.600 what we mean. Similar thing with trail cams, like Montana 2:05:55.720 --> 2:05:59.320 no mention of trail cams. Then it was I think 2:05:59.360 --> 2:06:02.320 it went no trail cams. Then it came back and clarified, 2:06:02.640 --> 2:06:04.960 sell you their trail cams, right, and then people get like, well, 2:06:05.040 --> 2:06:07.520 by god, make up your mind, and you kind of 2:06:07.600 --> 2:06:09.840 like we're trying, we're trying to make up your mind 2:06:09.920 --> 2:06:11.960 and figure out where the technology is going, how people 2:06:12.000 --> 2:06:13.880 are using them, and we'll hopefully hit on a thing 2:06:13.960 --> 2:06:15.160 that's livable for everybody. 2:06:15.240 --> 2:06:18.800 And we don't want to change the rules every year. 2:06:18.920 --> 2:06:21.120 I mean, I, as a recreations hunter, don't want the 2:06:21.200 --> 2:06:23.520 rules to change every because I get confused and it 2:06:23.600 --> 2:06:26.560 takes time to get updated on those and educated. And 2:06:26.720 --> 2:06:30.680 so those decisions where regulations are changed or tweaked, there's 2:06:30.720 --> 2:06:34.800 a lot of discussion and planning that involves attorneys, game managers, 2:06:35.000 --> 2:06:38.840 wildlife commission, legislatures, all those you know involved in the 2:06:38.920 --> 2:06:41.720 decision making process, and there's a lot of feedback loop. 2:06:42.120 --> 2:06:46.400 Most regulation changes that we implement, unless it's something just 2:06:46.480 --> 2:06:50.520 a clarification, there's a whole public scoping effort that goes 2:06:50.560 --> 2:06:52.800 behind it too, where we get the public's opinion if 2:06:53.120 --> 2:06:54.800 we were to make this illegal, if we were to 2:06:55.040 --> 2:06:57.720 put in this regulation, how would it impact you. What's 2:06:57.760 --> 2:06:59.280 your opinions on it? Do you support it? 2:06:59.440 --> 2:06:59.760 Do you not? 2:07:00.240 --> 2:07:02.720 Should we tweak it? That's a huge part of the 2:07:02.760 --> 2:07:06.480 process also, But like I said, our jobs to implement it, 2:07:06.720 --> 2:07:10.040 enforce it, and sometimes the feedback we get or the 2:07:10.120 --> 2:07:13.280 implementation goes sideways or it needs some tweaking, we send 2:07:13.360 --> 2:07:15.560 that back up and then and then laws can be 2:07:15.680 --> 2:07:17.240 changed or adjusted based on that. 2:07:27.200 --> 2:07:29.560 You know, it bummed me out to see I'm curious 2:07:29.560 --> 2:07:33.560 how had implications for you out in the field. The 2:07:33.720 --> 2:07:40.120 state relaxed its salvage requirements, its game meet salvage requirements 2:07:43.120 --> 2:07:45.720 on what well they went from. So it used to 2:07:45.720 --> 2:07:48.760 be like bird a mallard size or bigger, you had 2:07:48.800 --> 2:07:53.280 to retain legs and wings, teal whatever however they spelled 2:07:53.320 --> 2:07:55.160 it out, but basically, if you killed a canon the 2:07:55.200 --> 2:07:58.240 goose at a time a few years ago, you had 2:07:58.240 --> 2:08:00.760 to keep the wing in the leg. I think they 2:08:00.800 --> 2:08:03.080 brought everything to breast, right, I think it was. 2:08:03.160 --> 2:08:04.640 I thought it was just a leg and thigh. 2:08:05.000 --> 2:08:07.080 Leg and thigh. If it was a duck size or bigger, 2:08:07.720 --> 2:08:10.040 it was skeel size or bigger. I think it was. 2:08:10.280 --> 2:08:12.720 It was like I kind of liked the precision of it. 2:08:13.400 --> 2:08:14.080 Was that a thing. 2:08:15.520 --> 2:08:17.880 And specified like rib meat and neck meat? 2:08:18.520 --> 2:08:18.760 Yep. 2:08:20.080 --> 2:08:22.280 And that was an interesting one too, because I was 2:08:22.320 --> 2:08:24.040 living in Idaho at the time, and they all of 2:08:24.080 --> 2:08:27.760 a sudden you weren't required to keep rib meat or 2:08:27.840 --> 2:08:30.200 neck meat. And then I started on a deer. 2:08:31.280 --> 2:08:33.880 Yeah me, neck met duck be tough. 2:08:34.160 --> 2:08:38.000 Yeah, there's some salvage requirements like there there was there 2:08:38.080 --> 2:08:40.720 was hunting units in Alaska. There's a salvage requirement on 2:08:40.840 --> 2:08:43.960 the liver, and there's a salvage requirement on you couldn't 2:08:43.960 --> 2:08:47.920 bone your meat in the field. Well, remember you just 2:08:47.960 --> 2:08:53.160 did something to destroy your microphone. He broke it. 2:08:55.800 --> 2:08:58.320 I remember when we were in Alaska one time, because 2:08:58.360 --> 2:09:02.720 you have to salvage rib me on caribou. Whatever you said, 2:09:02.880 --> 2:09:06.880 they'll often fly. When they're flying, they'll look down at 2:09:06.960 --> 2:09:09.680 the carcass to see if that rib meat has been stripped. 2:09:09.840 --> 2:09:13.960 Well, I this is a long time ago, hypothetically. I 2:09:14.080 --> 2:09:17.520 used to hunt with the dude named Chuck. And Chuck 2:09:18.880 --> 2:09:21.720 had once had a job out on the Alaska Peninsula, 2:09:21.880 --> 2:09:23.080 just a young kid. He didn't know what the hell 2:09:23.160 --> 2:09:28.240 was going on, and he encountered folk whose practice was 2:09:28.400 --> 2:09:30.920 to make it the carcass look good from the air, right, 2:09:32.040 --> 2:09:35.600 because that bomb the top side real good, so that 2:09:35.640 --> 2:09:37.280 from the air it looked like they had been cleaned up, 2:09:37.360 --> 2:09:40.360 and then fling everything off. And the outfitter was like, 2:09:40.480 --> 2:09:42.520 just get make it look real good up there and 2:09:42.600 --> 2:09:44.000 just fling it in the bushes, and then if someone 2:09:44.040 --> 2:09:45.800 flies over, it looks like someone pulled the rib meat 2:09:45.800 --> 2:09:46.640 off it. Oh. 2:09:46.880 --> 2:09:50.080 I worked under an outfitter in New Mexico who one 2:09:50.240 --> 2:09:54.200 time showed up to help pack an elk out, which 2:09:54.200 --> 2:09:57.840 he was not happy about, and I had to ask 2:09:58.000 --> 2:10:02.080 him to just stop trying to bone the elk. And 2:10:02.320 --> 2:10:05.839 he explained to me two or three times the exact 2:10:07.000 --> 2:10:10.320 AH cuts that need to be taken in order to 2:10:10.400 --> 2:10:14.840 make it legal, like, no, you need to take the 2:10:14.960 --> 2:10:17.760 loin that, like basically, why are you taking all of 2:10:17.840 --> 2:10:20.960 this ship? Yeah, and was very frustrated that he thought 2:10:21.080 --> 2:10:23.040 at some point that would end up on his back. 2:10:24.280 --> 2:10:24.760 It was not. 2:10:24.960 --> 2:10:25.560 It was horrible. 2:10:26.160 --> 2:10:28.600 Did that did that rule change? Have any real im vacations? 2:10:28.640 --> 2:10:30.480 Like was that a thing you would encounter a lot 2:10:30.520 --> 2:10:33.200 in the field arguing with people about well you're supposed 2:10:33.200 --> 2:10:34.480 to take the leg on that one, but not the 2:10:34.560 --> 2:10:36.280 leg on that one? Or was it kind of a 2:10:36.440 --> 2:10:37.280 non point for you? 2:10:38.120 --> 2:10:41.680 I mean, it wasn't a huge issue, but definitely cases 2:10:41.760 --> 2:10:45.080 where we'd find, you know, dozens of of whatever bird 2:10:45.240 --> 2:10:49.000 dumped in in a dumpster and only breasted out. It's 2:10:49.080 --> 2:10:52.320 really common, you know, and thighs not being taken or something. 2:10:52.120 --> 2:10:53.480 And at a point in time that would have been 2:10:53.720 --> 2:10:54.480 been your problem. 2:10:54.640 --> 2:10:59.800 Sure, absolutely, you know, yeah, I want to talk about 2:10:59.800 --> 2:11:07.040 in for a minute. Uh, this isn't even entrapment. We 2:11:07.120 --> 2:11:09.360 had a guy right in. So do you think about 2:11:09.360 --> 2:11:11.480 a game warden in Arkansas as your colleague or is 2:11:11.520 --> 2:11:12.160 that too far away? 2:11:12.200 --> 2:11:12.320 Oh? 2:11:12.400 --> 2:11:14.480 Sure, okay, sure, yeah, I mean we got a guy 2:11:14.560 --> 2:11:16.560 right And this is just his version of the story. 2:11:17.200 --> 2:11:18.680 Everyone has a story like this. 2:11:19.000 --> 2:11:21.560 Of his version of the story is here he is. 2:11:21.920 --> 2:11:24.480 This isn't entrapment. I don't know what it is. Here's 2:11:24.520 --> 2:11:25.920 his version of story. I don't know who the hell 2:11:26.000 --> 2:11:30.480 this guy is. He's cleaning a duck talking to a 2:11:30.560 --> 2:11:33.920 game warden. Let's just say this is true. He's cleaning 2:11:33.960 --> 2:11:35.280 a duck, talking to a game warder, and he gets 2:11:35.280 --> 2:11:37.120 to a part in his duck cleaning process where he's 2:11:37.160 --> 2:11:39.960 committing an illegal act because he needs to leave a 2:11:40.000 --> 2:11:43.320 fully feathered head or a fully feathered wing attached to 2:11:43.400 --> 2:11:45.560 the carcass until he gets it to its final place, 2:11:45.640 --> 2:11:46.720 to his abode. 2:11:47.680 --> 2:11:49.480 So the warden watches him. 2:11:50.880 --> 2:11:56.560 Remove the wing and head and then says, ha, gotcha, Now, 2:11:56.720 --> 2:11:58.320 how would you handle a situation like that? 2:12:00.080 --> 2:12:02.120 Would you have said do you feel personally? You would 2:12:02.120 --> 2:12:03.480 have said, you know, the minute you do. 2:12:03.680 --> 2:12:08.000 That, it's hard to Monday morning quarterback in a situation 2:12:08.240 --> 2:12:11.880 like this, I'm not well, so. 2:12:12.040 --> 2:12:13.800 You don't want to sell this game warning you don't 2:12:13.800 --> 2:12:14.120 even know. 2:12:14.480 --> 2:12:17.720 Well, there's a lot of thoughts. One. Every situation has 2:12:17.760 --> 2:12:21.760 a lot of nuance in detail and every what happened? Well, 2:12:22.560 --> 2:12:23.000 how long? 2:12:23.360 --> 2:12:25.920 How much you told him what this guy said? 2:12:26.200 --> 2:12:28.200 Did he grab that burden just snap it right in 2:12:28.280 --> 2:12:28.720 front of him? 2:12:28.800 --> 2:12:31.040 Or was he being meticulous and careful in the morning, 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:34.120 was watching him for twenty minutes clean this thing like 2:12:34.280 --> 2:12:34.880 now I'm going to. 2:12:34.920 --> 2:12:36.600 Remove that exactly? 2:12:38.760 --> 2:12:42.720 What was he watching the prior hour or two hours 2:12:42.880 --> 2:12:45.040 or days about the group of hunters? 2:12:45.320 --> 2:12:45.480 You know? 2:12:45.960 --> 2:12:49.640 So it makes me I have had a conversation with 2:12:49.760 --> 2:12:52.800 my son a lot lately as he complains about referees 2:12:52.880 --> 2:12:57.040 in football or teachers that now don't allow him to 2:12:57.120 --> 2:12:59.440 eat in class when he always used to be able 2:12:59.520 --> 2:13:04.040 to And and I tell him, which I tell is, 2:13:04.120 --> 2:13:07.800 don't take my inaction or the person of authorities in 2:13:07.880 --> 2:13:12.280 action as permission. Don't don't take just because the police 2:13:12.320 --> 2:13:14.520 officer didn't pull you over that one time or didn't 2:13:14.560 --> 2:13:16.960 give you a ticket last time, meaning now you have 2:13:17.080 --> 2:13:21.760 permission to do this thing forever it But people get 2:13:21.840 --> 2:13:24.040 in this rut. Well like last time I did it 2:13:24.080 --> 2:13:27.720 and the cop didn't do anything exactly. You guys never 2:13:27.800 --> 2:13:30.160 seem to care about this rule in the past, you 2:13:30.240 --> 2:13:34.480 know all the time, you know, you never cared that 2:13:34.600 --> 2:13:37.240 we camped in this spot. Well, you know, now we're 2:13:37.280 --> 2:13:39.800 priorities changed and we're addressing it because it's becoming a 2:13:39.920 --> 2:13:45.520 huge issue. But but in that instance, you know, again, 2:13:45.560 --> 2:13:48.480 I don't know the circumstance, how quick the interaction happened. 2:13:48.800 --> 2:13:51.800 It's definitely not entrapment. I mean, entrapment is something. 2:13:54.520 --> 2:13:57.320 I have question, but it's not like I just have 2:13:57.400 --> 2:13:58.520 a philosophical question. 2:13:58.600 --> 2:14:01.840 There's there's you know, I I have walked up on 2:14:02.040 --> 2:14:05.720 plenty of people that are gutting animals or tagging in 2:14:05.800 --> 2:14:08.440 the middle of tagging animals. The last thing I do 2:14:08.720 --> 2:14:11.640 is check someone's license while they're just getting ready to shoot. 2:14:11.800 --> 2:14:13.880 Like I f Yannis sitting in the bushes. I drive by, 2:14:14.160 --> 2:14:16.400 he's ready to shoot a mule deer. I'm not going 2:14:16.480 --> 2:14:18.320 to run out there and wave my hands say stop 2:14:18.400 --> 2:14:20.360 before you shoot that, show me your license. I want 2:14:20.400 --> 2:14:22.480 to make sure you're legal. Sit there, I'm going to 2:14:22.560 --> 2:14:24.320 let them harvest the animal. I'm going to let them 2:14:24.360 --> 2:14:27.040 do all the dragon work, so, you know, because I 2:14:27.080 --> 2:14:30.640 don't want to help with that, right kidding, you know. 2:14:30.760 --> 2:14:32.440 Let him get all that done, and then I'm going 2:14:32.480 --> 2:14:33.960 to make sure it's tagged, and then I'm going to 2:14:34.000 --> 2:14:38.280 go over there and check his animal. And sometimes there 2:14:38.360 --> 2:14:41.360 may be issues, and sometimes based on the situation, we 2:14:41.480 --> 2:14:46.000 may educate warn guide them through the process. I can 2:14:46.080 --> 2:14:49.080 recall driving by on a state section and watching a 2:14:49.160 --> 2:14:52.560 guy kill a cow elk, walking out there, realizing this 2:14:52.760 --> 2:14:54.560 was a nineteen year old kid that I just had 2:14:54.640 --> 2:14:57.280 in a hunter education a couple weeks before, and he 2:14:57.440 --> 2:15:01.440 was totally overwhelmed by himself. He was just freaking out, sweating. 2:15:01.840 --> 2:15:05.080 He'd just driven by cow wellk happened to be running by, 2:15:05.240 --> 2:15:07.560 I mean, just luck, and now he didn't know what 2:15:07.680 --> 2:15:10.560 to do. He had the tag unvalidated stuff down the 2:15:10.640 --> 2:15:13.640 throat of the elk. He he'd had no clue how 2:15:13.680 --> 2:15:17.000 to gut it, you know, and I could have easily 2:15:17.200 --> 2:15:19.720 wrapped him up for a few minor violations, but I 2:15:19.840 --> 2:15:21.680 took the time to show him how to gut it, 2:15:21.960 --> 2:15:24.680 held the legs, made him do the cutting, and then. 2:15:25.720 --> 2:15:28.320 That's way more valuable than ticketing, and then he never 2:15:28.360 --> 2:15:29.280 would have hunted again. 2:15:29.480 --> 2:15:32.080 Right, But it depends on the situation. I mean, if 2:15:32.560 --> 2:15:36.480 if your caller is a seasoned veteran who's been hunting 2:15:36.520 --> 2:15:39.520 for twenty years and he knows the rules, he shouldn't 2:15:39.560 --> 2:15:43.200 have to be reminded. He shouldn't need that education from 2:15:43.240 --> 2:15:44.680 the warden. He should just be able to do the 2:15:44.800 --> 2:15:47.680 right thing. Especially when the warden's standing right in front 2:15:47.720 --> 2:15:50.120 of him. His brain should click and should go, man, 2:15:50.240 --> 2:15:53.000 warden's right here, I should probably do this right, you know. 2:15:53.520 --> 2:15:54.280 Yeah, and that. 2:15:57.040 --> 2:15:59.520 Build arkansons he had. 2:15:59.560 --> 2:16:02.520 He just hold out the hibachi and said, sir, you're 2:16:02.560 --> 2:16:03.720 ready for me, all right? 2:16:04.160 --> 2:16:05.600 So if he was going to cook it right in 2:16:05.680 --> 2:16:06.640 that instance, yeah. 2:16:06.520 --> 2:16:08.720 It just says this guy's right in the ticket He's like, well, 2:16:08.760 --> 2:16:09.960 I got a little something for you. 2:16:12.120 --> 2:16:14.040 He just raw right now. 2:16:15.040 --> 2:16:19.000 So I think favorite when I was all of them 2:16:19.360 --> 2:16:22.880 city police officer, I wrote hundreds of tickets a year. 2:16:23.000 --> 2:16:26.960 I mean absolutely hundreds, And the average game warning in 2:16:27.000 --> 2:16:28.840 Montana writes fifty to one hundred tickets. 2:16:28.880 --> 2:16:30.160 So I mean time it's used to it used to 2:16:30.160 --> 2:16:31.720 be good for fifteen hundred tickets a year. 2:16:32.320 --> 2:16:35.440 Yeah, you could easily as a traffic meant traffic right, 2:16:35.640 --> 2:16:37.640 because that's all you're doing. You're out of the call rotation. 2:16:37.800 --> 2:16:41.080 Your job is to write traffic tickets and force traffic law. 2:16:41.520 --> 2:16:43.920 And so you know, I had average ten twelve tickets 2:16:43.959 --> 2:16:46.160 a shift, a ten hour shift. You multiply it out. 2:16:46.200 --> 2:16:48.840 There's some vacations and training in there, but could easily 2:16:48.920 --> 2:16:51.640 go over a thousand tickets a year, Game Waring, I 2:16:51.680 --> 2:16:54.240 think the most I've ever written is around one hundred. 2:16:54.520 --> 2:16:56.680 You know, most of our guys averaged less than that. 2:16:57.320 --> 2:17:00.760 Huge amount of education that occurs, huge amount of mentorship 2:17:00.840 --> 2:17:04.720 that occurs warnings out there. It's just we're not out 2:17:04.760 --> 2:17:06.880 there to jam people up. We're out there to get 2:17:06.959 --> 2:17:09.800 you to do the right thing. A good day for 2:17:10.000 --> 2:17:12.080 us is a day where we don't write any tickets, 2:17:12.240 --> 2:17:14.560 because that means everybody around us was doing the right thing. 2:17:14.959 --> 2:17:18.080 I'd love for an instance where my job becomes obsolete. 2:17:18.959 --> 2:17:21.600 That would be amazing for society, that law enforcement is 2:17:21.680 --> 2:17:22.800 no longer needed because. 2:17:22.560 --> 2:17:25.720 They're going far out as long as there. 2:17:29.800 --> 2:17:34.200 Then I want to, Okay, one more thing I want 2:17:34.240 --> 2:17:34.800 to ask about. 2:17:34.879 --> 2:17:35.160 It's a. 2:17:36.959 --> 2:17:39.360 College year's named Eric Crawford. We discussed this one time. 2:17:39.480 --> 2:17:41.520 Idaho warden we were talking about we spent a lot 2:17:41.520 --> 2:17:45.800 of time talking about the robo deer, and he's got 2:17:45.840 --> 2:17:48.840 all these hilarious stories about robo deer. Sure, you know, 2:17:50.560 --> 2:17:53.560 including people who even when the warden shows up, he's 2:17:53.560 --> 2:17:56.680 still in disbelief that this is not an actual deer. 2:17:57.600 --> 2:18:00.920 But he had pointed out that they deliberately don't use 2:18:01.720 --> 2:18:05.640 They literally don't use trophy correct class animals. 2:18:05.720 --> 2:18:06.600 Yeah, it's the same for us. 2:18:07.520 --> 2:18:08.200 I disagree. 2:18:09.879 --> 2:18:13.320 Why in the world is it okay for guy? Like, 2:18:14.480 --> 2:18:16.400 why not have it be a two hundred inch milder 2:18:18.520 --> 2:18:22.400 because then you really finding out what people are made of, true, 2:18:22.480 --> 2:18:25.240 because if not, you're just selecting meat hunters. You're just 2:18:25.280 --> 2:18:26.440 getting meat hunters in trouble. 2:18:26.560 --> 2:18:28.959 I mean, it's the idea everyone's going to be like. 2:18:29.080 --> 2:18:32.520 Nah, this is that's his thing was that everybody's gonna 2:18:32.520 --> 2:18:34.360 shoot at it if it's a two hundred in fielder, 2:18:34.480 --> 2:18:36.480 Come on, that's like you can't give up like that. 2:18:37.400 --> 2:18:44.640 Definitely, Usually we're targeting a specific violation, so it typically 2:18:44.720 --> 2:18:48.039 doesn't have to do with trophy harvest. It typically has 2:18:48.080 --> 2:18:52.080 to do with shooting from the road. Trespassing, shooting an 2:18:52.120 --> 2:18:56.040 animal that uh, the season may be closed. Maybe you 2:18:56.120 --> 2:18:59.160 know there's no cow hard anything convincing to me yet, 2:18:59.280 --> 2:19:02.240 ye and so so typically that's what we're targeting. We 2:19:02.400 --> 2:19:06.120 don't have point restrictions in Montana and of our districts 2:19:06.600 --> 2:19:09.240 and so you know, you know the thing we we 2:19:09.480 --> 2:19:11.680 have used in the before would be a spike, would 2:19:11.720 --> 2:19:14.720 be the closest thing to a trophy. 2:19:15.040 --> 2:19:19.440 You know that is just not that do what a 2:19:19.640 --> 2:19:21.640 giant bucket there and see what have does? 2:19:21.720 --> 2:19:25.280 Montana have a version of the thing. It's called the 2:19:25.360 --> 2:19:28.080 Samson law, like where if you poach an animal of 2:19:28.120 --> 2:19:30.600 a certain size, the consequences are great. 2:19:30.680 --> 2:19:35.760 Yep, absolutely absolutely so yeah, so there's trophy restitution built 2:19:35.840 --> 2:19:38.199 into our statute. You know, if you kill a trophy 2:19:38.480 --> 2:19:42.200 bull elk, it's eight thousand dollars and that's excluding the 2:19:42.280 --> 2:19:44.560 cost of whatever violation the ticket you wrote. 2:19:44.600 --> 2:19:46.480 So the state like where they're like, we got eight 2:19:46.520 --> 2:19:47.680 thousand bucks into that thing. 2:19:47.879 --> 2:19:50.800 Yep, that's kind of you know, when the legislature passed that, 2:19:50.920 --> 2:19:53.879 they looked at basically what it costs to replace the animal, 2:19:53.920 --> 2:19:56.640 what's the value to society, what it costs if we 2:19:56.720 --> 2:19:58.800 were to try and replace it. You know, the smallest 2:19:58.840 --> 2:20:01.240 thing would be like a fish ten dollars, and the 2:20:01.360 --> 2:20:04.320 highest is a big horn sheep was thirty thousand. Those 2:20:04.440 --> 2:20:07.240 amounts aren't automatic. The court would have to award it, 2:20:07.360 --> 2:20:09.360 and we rarely see those top dollars. 2:20:09.879 --> 2:20:13.040 But really, but I want to get back to this, Steve, 2:20:13.360 --> 2:20:16.440 I got to help me understand why not a huge buck? 2:20:17.520 --> 2:20:21.000 Just real quick. Way back when I was working construction 2:20:21.120 --> 2:20:24.680 in Missoula, my buddy and I go out hunting for 2:20:24.760 --> 2:20:29.000 the weekend. We'd already killed smelk during archery season, but 2:20:29.080 --> 2:20:31.600 we're driving out of this area and it's like, you know, 2:20:31.720 --> 2:20:33.840 kind of that November time frame where there's just there's 2:20:33.840 --> 2:20:37.160 a lot of people road hunting and we look up 2:20:37.200 --> 2:20:43.240 on the hillside and there's a spike bull spike bull 2:20:43.280 --> 2:20:45.920 elk sitting there like, oh, look at that, and barely 2:20:46.000 --> 2:20:48.120 touched the brakes. It just kind of kept going. The 2:20:48.320 --> 2:20:52.000 next day on the job site, one of the kind 2:20:52.040 --> 2:20:57.520 of general foreman type dudes is complaining loudly to everybody 2:20:58.040 --> 2:20:59.879 that he and his wife were out hunting. 2:21:02.800 --> 2:21:06.720 And swear she shout out a cow. 2:21:08.560 --> 2:21:11.720 Off the road out the window, and it was it 2:21:11.840 --> 2:21:12.840 was not as it seemed. 2:21:13.480 --> 2:21:16.840 No kid, Oh yeah, Steve, you've never gotten horn fever. 2:21:17.920 --> 2:21:20.320 But that's I'm saying, like, let's say I get horn fever, 2:21:20.680 --> 2:21:21.320 stick it to me. 2:21:21.879 --> 2:21:25.920 But then we're starting to target people who normally would 2:21:25.920 --> 2:21:28.800 do the right thing, and just in the moment you need, 2:21:28.959 --> 2:21:31.440 they make a bad decision. We're out there to get 2:21:31.480 --> 2:21:34.400 true poachers. We're not out there to make poachers out 2:21:34.440 --> 2:21:36.240 of people, or people into poachers. 2:21:36.680 --> 2:21:40.280 But in the New Testament about like Judas and stuff, Man, 2:21:40.320 --> 2:21:43.920 you gotta test like the true belie. 2:21:45.600 --> 2:21:46.240 All the time. 2:21:46.480 --> 2:21:52.520 You know, Steve, maybe they do use them, they're just not. 2:21:54.560 --> 2:21:55.320 He's being coy. 2:21:56.680 --> 2:21:59.760 Think you how many two hundred inch mule deer racks 2:21:59.800 --> 2:22:05.400 you'd have to replace every year people shooting? Have you 2:22:05.560 --> 2:22:08.360 have you tackled the open fields doctrine? I think that 2:22:08.440 --> 2:22:09.520 would be a great one. 2:22:09.879 --> 2:22:12.160 No, go ahead. I don't even know enough about it 2:22:12.200 --> 2:22:12.480 to ask. 2:22:13.040 --> 2:22:16.279 Oh yeah, And then I got a final thing I want. 2:22:16.120 --> 2:22:16.640 To do that. 2:22:16.760 --> 2:22:20.360 The grand scope of things, right is wildlife belongs to 2:22:20.400 --> 2:22:24.119 all of us, right, and it's managed by the states 2:22:24.360 --> 2:22:31.240 in like a trust fashion for the public. Wildlife spends 2:22:31.280 --> 2:22:32.840 a lot of time on public ground. It spends a 2:22:32.879 --> 2:22:35.600 lot of time on private ground, it does not recognize 2:22:35.640 --> 2:22:38.240 the existence of a three strand barboy or fence that 2:22:38.440 --> 2:22:44.440 separates private from public. However, on private property, private property 2:22:44.520 --> 2:22:51.440 rights are such that the Montana is a different state. 2:22:52.280 --> 2:22:53.199 But the way. 2:22:55.360 --> 2:23:00.600 The law is interpreted in many areas is law enforcement 2:23:00.959 --> 2:23:06.480 can enter onto private property without the express permission of 2:23:06.560 --> 2:23:13.959 the landowner or the landowner's agent if they see illegal 2:23:14.040 --> 2:23:22.760 behavior or suspicious behavior in the open fields, okay, meaning 2:23:23.040 --> 2:23:29.760 something visible versus something they can't just like walk into 2:23:29.800 --> 2:23:35.440 your barn or your home without a warrant to do 2:23:35.640 --> 2:23:37.240 so signed by a judge. 2:23:38.240 --> 2:23:40.080 I mean he's driving down the road, he looks out 2:23:40.160 --> 2:23:42.640 in a in a picked cornfield and there's some guys 2:23:42.680 --> 2:23:47.040 with decoys set up, uh, and like they're blasting way 2:23:47.080 --> 2:23:49.760 before legal shoot light or after legal shooting light. You 2:23:49.879 --> 2:23:52.080 have you can go out there. You guys can't say, hey, 2:23:52.120 --> 2:23:55.160 your trespass and go get a search warrant? Right or whatever? Yes? 2:23:56.040 --> 2:23:57.400 Is that is? 2:23:57.440 --> 2:23:57.480 That? 2:23:57.920 --> 2:23:59.080 Was that close enough? 2:23:59.400 --> 2:24:05.200 Kind of So Montana still has plane view basically plane view, 2:24:05.480 --> 2:24:09.000 so as if something illegal is in plane view, we're 2:24:09.000 --> 2:24:11.480 in a place that we're allowed to be a public space, 2:24:11.920 --> 2:24:15.520 and we can plainly see without any search or manipulation. 2:24:15.240 --> 2:24:16.440 Like a county road yep. 2:24:16.680 --> 2:24:21.560 So think of you know, a traffic stop or something 2:24:21.720 --> 2:24:23.800 like that that a police officer does and they see 2:24:23.879 --> 2:24:26.360 contraband in the backseat of the car. They're in a 2:24:26.400 --> 2:24:29.400 public space. They have the authority to be there and 2:24:29.480 --> 2:24:32.240 stop that vehicle, and there's something in the car that's 2:24:32.320 --> 2:24:36.680 totally illegal, maybe a big kilo of cocaine. They could 2:24:36.800 --> 2:24:40.000 seize that in most areas without a search warrant. More 2:24:40.000 --> 2:24:41.720 than likely they're going to get a search warrant to 2:24:41.720 --> 2:24:44.280 protect them. And it's the same way with hunting and 2:24:44.360 --> 2:24:48.199 fishing rules. If we were to observe from a public place, 2:24:48.200 --> 2:24:53.200 we're allowed to be of true articuable violation occurring in 2:24:53.240 --> 2:24:57.200 front of us. We could enter stop that season to 2:24:57.440 --> 2:24:59.680 conduct a search of the property or anything. We'd have 2:24:59.720 --> 2:25:03.760 to sear sworn. Or if we just see someone harvest, 2:25:03.879 --> 2:25:06.760 say an antelope, on private property, we see no violation 2:25:07.200 --> 2:25:09.680 and we're in a public space. The thing you're thinking 2:25:09.680 --> 2:25:13.119 about is I couldn't enter that private property without permission 2:25:14.040 --> 2:25:16.520 just to check or regulate that hunter. 2:25:16.920 --> 2:25:20.520 You cannot, No, I would, because I would clearly see anything. 2:25:20.520 --> 2:25:23.200 I would have to see a violation or have permission 2:25:23.240 --> 2:25:23.640 to be on that. 2:25:23.800 --> 2:25:27.160 But if it was an analope season correct, a clear 2:25:27.280 --> 2:25:31.720 articulate violation, I could you know, an evolution like we're 2:25:31.720 --> 2:25:35.880 talking about, evolution of laws is is across the United States, 2:25:36.000 --> 2:25:41.240 game wardens in many states were giving basically an exigency 2:25:41.360 --> 2:25:42.959 clause to search and seizure. 2:25:44.080 --> 2:25:47.200 Think about the first eight game wardens in the state 2:25:47.280 --> 2:25:49.520 of Montana. Again, they lived up in a cabin in 2:25:49.560 --> 2:25:54.040 the middle of the woods. Transportation was was you know, 2:25:54.520 --> 2:26:01.800 uh not not very efficient at the time or whatever 2:26:01.879 --> 2:26:05.440 they had, so their access to the courts was pretty limited. 2:26:05.840 --> 2:26:07.440 And so if they're way up in the middle of 2:26:07.480 --> 2:26:11.760 the woods and the violation occurs, they were given the 2:26:11.879 --> 2:26:15.040 authority to search tents, coolers, all these things without a 2:26:15.120 --> 2:26:18.480 search warrant because one the evidence was perishable and two 2:26:19.120 --> 2:26:21.520 they didn't have good access to the courts and so 2:26:22.120 --> 2:26:25.400 they needed to be able to seize things on the spot. Well, 2:26:25.520 --> 2:26:29.000 technology has changed. You know, we have judges that are 2:26:29.040 --> 2:26:31.200 on call twenty four to seven. We can text and 2:26:31.360 --> 2:26:36.200 email them for search warrants and stuff. You know, our 2:26:36.240 --> 2:26:40.720 transportation we can easily get to the courts, get to 2:26:41.760 --> 2:26:46.320 our police stations or conservation stations very easily. And so 2:26:46.520 --> 2:26:51.280 as the technology has changed, the excuse or reason law 2:26:51.360 --> 2:26:56.880 enforcement uses to not get search warrants is diminished. And 2:26:57.040 --> 2:27:03.199 the courts have continually protected personal property at a higher value, 2:27:03.280 --> 2:27:07.120 particularly in the West in Montana, and so it's difficult 2:27:07.160 --> 2:27:09.320 for us to say, like, oh, we had to seize 2:27:09.360 --> 2:27:11.920 this thing because we couldn't get the search warrant because 2:27:11.920 --> 2:27:14.280 it's too inconvenient, because when it is pretty easy for 2:27:14.360 --> 2:27:16.039 us to get one, got it. And so in most 2:27:16.120 --> 2:27:18.280 cases now we're going to always defer to that search 2:27:18.360 --> 2:27:22.280 warrant to protect the integrity of the case so that 2:27:22.440 --> 2:27:27.240 there is no challenge to our search and seizures. 2:27:27.920 --> 2:27:31.200 It's a theme though that always comes up, right, it's 2:27:32.600 --> 2:27:37.560 does the regulation of a public resource wildlife stop at 2:27:37.600 --> 2:27:41.200 the private property boundary? And the answer is no, But 2:27:41.600 --> 2:27:47.720 how do you regulate that resource and then still respect 2:27:47.840 --> 2:27:50.879 all the other laws that are in place regarding private 2:27:50.959 --> 2:27:52.720 property and everything else. 2:27:52.959 --> 2:27:55.320 And we run into that, take enforcement out of it 2:27:55.440 --> 2:27:58.480 and talk about just general management, you know, to be 2:27:58.600 --> 2:28:02.840 able to do surveys or go and respond to issues 2:28:03.120 --> 2:28:07.760 on private property where wildlife exists, there can be contention 2:28:07.920 --> 2:28:10.640 there if the proper private property landowner is not going 2:28:10.680 --> 2:28:13.480 to allow permission. But for the most part, we work 2:28:13.560 --> 2:28:15.960 with landowners. We get that permission, you know, we let 2:28:16.040 --> 2:28:18.080 them know the work we're going to do, the legitimacy 2:28:18.160 --> 2:28:20.280 of it. But it can get in the way if 2:28:20.320 --> 2:28:22.560 you were to have a landowner that said no, no access, 2:28:23.160 --> 2:28:25.320 and now you have a population of wild animals that 2:28:25.400 --> 2:28:27.480 it's difficult to get to to manage. 2:28:28.560 --> 2:28:31.520 I want to close with a game and I'll go, 2:28:31.600 --> 2:28:32.960 and you go, and then anybody else wants to go 2:28:33.040 --> 2:28:34.440 and go. I'm gonna do a thing where I give 2:28:34.480 --> 2:28:37.920 you a tip as a game warden, and you give 2:28:38.000 --> 2:28:42.160 me a tip as a hunter angler. Okay, you already 2:28:42.200 --> 2:28:44.879 do this tip. So I'm speaking in broadly to the profession. 2:28:45.920 --> 2:28:46.040 Uh. 2:28:47.640 --> 2:28:50.200 I feel that you one of the reasons, like, like 2:28:50.440 --> 2:28:52.160 one of the things I appreciate about you as a person. 2:28:52.240 --> 2:28:54.720 I feel like you are a sort of like rooting 2:28:54.959 --> 2:29:02.600 for the people that you kind of you know that 2:29:02.760 --> 2:29:05.240 you're kind of rooting for people hunting and fishing. You're 2:29:05.280 --> 2:29:08.480 hoping they're having a good time, right, Yeah. And I 2:29:08.560 --> 2:29:12.480 feel that you are open to helping people interpret things, 2:29:13.280 --> 2:29:16.600 trying to help them be on the right side, right. 2:29:18.400 --> 2:29:21.200 I have had encounters where I just haven't felt that 2:29:21.280 --> 2:29:26.080 that was the case, and I appreciate that. I appreciate that, like, hey, 2:29:26.160 --> 2:29:29.040 heads up, or let me know if you have any questions, 2:29:29.640 --> 2:29:33.599 or you know that you're really good about public communication 2:29:33.920 --> 2:29:38.800 and clarifying and clarifying stuff. And I think that that's 2:29:38.840 --> 2:29:40.560 the thing that I know a lot of hunters and 2:29:40.560 --> 2:29:44.080 angers appreciate, is that to be in a spot where 2:29:44.760 --> 2:29:46.680 you know you when you run into a game board 2:29:46.680 --> 2:29:49.760 and you're gonna learn some things. You know, they might 2:29:49.800 --> 2:29:51.520 be like heads up. Like I remember Yanni had a 2:29:51.560 --> 2:29:55.200 guy one time say that hunter's orange you have is 2:29:55.480 --> 2:29:59.280 getting pretty old. I'm not going to give you a 2:29:59.360 --> 2:30:01.879 ticket right now, but if you wash that one more time, 2:30:02.000 --> 2:30:03.680 I'm gonna call that knot hunter's orange. 2:30:05.280 --> 2:30:05.440 Right. 2:30:05.879 --> 2:30:07.160 And like, I think that those. 2:30:07.040 --> 2:30:09.880 Exchanges are really valuable for people where you sort of 2:30:09.920 --> 2:30:12.080 get like, oh, these guys are not like trying to 2:30:13.200 --> 2:30:15.560 you know, trying to throw me in jail man. They're 2:30:15.560 --> 2:30:18.240 trying to be like a good referee, you know. So 2:30:18.360 --> 2:30:20.680 now you give me a tip, not me personally, but 2:30:20.760 --> 2:30:24.560 give hunters a tip. Like when you're walking up, how 2:30:24.600 --> 2:30:26.279 do you know when you're gonna have a good interaction, 2:30:26.480 --> 2:30:27.880 and how do you know when it's just not going 2:30:27.959 --> 2:30:28.400 to go good. 2:30:28.760 --> 2:30:31.520 Well, a good place to start is golden rule. Okay, 2:30:31.879 --> 2:30:34.160 you know, treat others if you want to be treated, 2:30:34.600 --> 2:30:37.240 you know, and that goes for us and the hunters. 2:30:37.640 --> 2:30:41.120 So we should walk up and treat people with respect, 2:30:41.560 --> 2:30:44.000 and they need to do the same, you know. I 2:30:44.280 --> 2:30:48.000 think it's real important for everyone in society to have 2:30:48.120 --> 2:30:51.520 an outward mindset to think of to be able to 2:30:51.560 --> 2:30:54.959 put yourself in the other shoes and understand their perspective, 2:30:55.080 --> 2:30:59.120 that you know the position they're in, and give them 2:30:59.200 --> 2:31:01.680 almost the benefit the doubt until there is no reason 2:31:01.800 --> 2:31:04.120 to you know. I have a lot of faith in 2:31:04.240 --> 2:31:06.440 my fellow man, a lot of faith in humanity that 2:31:06.560 --> 2:31:08.119 most of us are trying to do the right thing. 2:31:08.440 --> 2:31:12.160 So that's how I approach those interactions with hunters. I'd 2:31:12.280 --> 2:31:15.080 like hunters, anglers, the general public to approach us the 2:31:15.120 --> 2:31:18.640 same way. There's a lot of stories of people in 2:31:18.800 --> 2:31:22.080 authority doing bad things, but when you take the percentage 2:31:22.120 --> 2:31:24.200 of those compared to the percentage that are doing good 2:31:24.280 --> 2:31:27.160 staying out of the headlines, it's the same as any 2:31:27.200 --> 2:31:29.959 other industry there's bad doctors, there's bad lawyers, there's bad 2:31:30.000 --> 2:31:33.240 school teachers, there's bad humans. But most of us are 2:31:33.280 --> 2:31:35.520 doing the right thing and just trying to go day 2:31:35.600 --> 2:31:37.800 by day and do our jobs and make the world 2:31:37.840 --> 2:31:40.959 a better place. And that's what most law enforcer are doing. 2:31:41.280 --> 2:31:44.240 But so if we walk up and you start giving 2:31:44.320 --> 2:31:46.600 us a hard time or treating us with disrespect, it's 2:31:46.720 --> 2:31:49.640 it's gonna go bad for you. We're gonna switch immediately 2:31:49.760 --> 2:31:52.840 from education to paying close attention everything that's going on 2:31:53.000 --> 2:31:53.240 with it. 2:31:53.320 --> 2:31:55.040 And personal safety factors. 2:31:55.200 --> 2:31:58.720 Well absolutely, Oh hey here's six guys. They all got guns. 2:31:59.600 --> 2:32:01.000 See they're doing so. 2:32:01.360 --> 2:32:04.800 I just hey, we're all human. Treat each other with respect. 2:32:04.920 --> 2:32:08.320 That's that's huge, you know. Yeah, that's that's one tip. 2:32:09.000 --> 2:32:12.200 Uh yeah, Zimby got any more tips for him? 2:32:13.200 --> 2:32:14.760 I think he does a pretty good job. 2:32:17.320 --> 2:32:20.640 Sure, tell me, tell me what I'm doing wrong and nothing. 2:32:21.080 --> 2:32:23.520 Nothing. I just really, like I said, I love those 2:32:23.840 --> 2:32:25.880 h and I'm not you know, it's not it's not 2:32:25.959 --> 2:32:29.080 a leniency thing. It's just I guess I'm maybe more 2:32:29.120 --> 2:32:32.080 than some. I like the I like the feedback and 2:32:32.200 --> 2:32:34.080 the If Steve was. 2:32:34.120 --> 2:32:38.320 A game Ward, he would be a hard he would 2:32:38.480 --> 2:32:43.080 just be like I just man, I'm like, how old 2:32:43.080 --> 2:32:43.480 are you again? 2:32:43.920 --> 2:32:44.840 Sure you're not thirteen? 2:32:45.400 --> 2:32:48.240 Well, And as we talked about, there's been an evolution. 2:32:48.640 --> 2:32:51.080 You know, there's a starting of our profession to be 2:32:51.640 --> 2:32:55.480 very based on rules and enforcement. That's the way you know, 2:32:55.840 --> 2:32:59.760 wildlife conservation started. And now it's more on management. And 2:32:59.840 --> 2:33:02.680 there's also a huge education and mentorship part of it. 2:33:03.320 --> 2:33:06.240 And you know, I think the reason why we have 2:33:06.360 --> 2:33:10.840 such high compliance is because of that relationship we've built, 2:33:10.879 --> 2:33:14.480 that trust, that mentorship, and again that value that's been 2:33:14.640 --> 2:33:18.760 established or ingrained in society of we value this resource. 2:33:18.840 --> 2:33:21.960 It's a public resource, which means it's mine. I don't 2:33:21.959 --> 2:33:23.840 want to disrespect it. I own it. I don't want 2:33:23.840 --> 2:33:26.360 to break my own stuff, and I get really upset 2:33:26.520 --> 2:33:29.120 and protective when other people break my stuff. You know, 2:33:29.240 --> 2:33:32.240 we don't view wildlife as the government's thing. As soon 2:33:32.280 --> 2:33:35.280 as it becomes the governments, plenty of people are willing 2:33:35.320 --> 2:33:37.560 to destroy it. Look at for service signs out there 2:33:37.600 --> 2:33:40.160 all around the property. You know, they just have no 2:33:40.360 --> 2:33:42.160 respect for it. But if you start thinking about those 2:33:42.200 --> 2:33:45.120 for service signs as your own. If I shoot it, 2:33:45.959 --> 2:33:48.360 my tax dollars have to replace it, you might be 2:33:48.400 --> 2:33:51.040 a little bit more protective of it, you know, And 2:33:51.120 --> 2:33:54.199 that's same with wildlife. Every time someone poaches, they're taking 2:33:54.280 --> 2:33:57.560 an opportunity away from everyone at this table and everyone 2:33:57.959 --> 2:34:00.160 who enjoys wildlife, whether or not you're a hunter or 2:34:00.280 --> 2:34:03.480 just a wildlife watcher. And as long as we can 2:34:03.600 --> 2:34:05.880 keep that attitude instill it, I think we'll have very 2:34:05.959 --> 2:34:07.800 high compliance in our wildlife roles. 2:34:09.040 --> 2:34:11.520 Right. Well, my mess is to all the listeners out 2:34:11.560 --> 2:34:16.279 there is one man, there's a lot of information available. 2:34:17.400 --> 2:34:22.879 It's good to find out ahead of time information. When 2:34:22.879 --> 2:34:24.280 I was a kid, we did not do much of it. 2:34:24.280 --> 2:34:27.920 I remember being periodically shocked when someone says, you know, 2:34:28.040 --> 2:34:32.520 that's actually illegal, right all the time? Man? Yeah, So 2:34:32.879 --> 2:34:35.160 I think finding stuff out and not being afraid to 2:34:35.160 --> 2:34:36.959 ask que I don't think you should call them up personally, 2:34:37.040 --> 2:34:38.000 but just ask questions. 2:34:38.160 --> 2:34:41.160 Yeah. You know, the last big thing that I wanted 2:34:41.200 --> 2:34:45.320 to mention here is a plug for public participation in 2:34:45.480 --> 2:34:49.720 the enforcement of wildlife laws. So you know, every state 2:34:49.840 --> 2:34:54.480 has some sort of crime stoppers program where basically there's hotlines. 2:34:54.520 --> 2:34:57.720 Since tip hotlines set up for various crimes, drug dealings, 2:34:57.840 --> 2:35:01.000 wildlife poaching, all those type of things across the United 2:35:01.040 --> 2:35:05.640 States and more likely across the world, there's very few 2:35:05.680 --> 2:35:08.080 game wardens for how big this state is, and for 2:35:08.240 --> 2:35:10.600 how big most other states are, and how many hunters 2:35:10.640 --> 2:35:12.720 anglers are, and how much wildlife there is out there. 2:35:13.200 --> 2:35:15.480 Each game ward in Montana Patrol is a district on 2:35:15.560 --> 2:35:19.240 average of two thousand square miles. They can't keep an 2:35:19.240 --> 2:35:22.600 eye in everything, and so it takes public participation for 2:35:22.720 --> 2:35:25.960 us to be successful. And like we just mentioned, you know, 2:35:26.280 --> 2:35:30.520 you as the public, own this wildlife resource. The government doesn't, 2:35:30.600 --> 2:35:34.200 the elected officials don't, the agency doesn't. You own them, 2:35:34.600 --> 2:35:37.840 so take a hand in protecting it. What we need 2:35:38.080 --> 2:35:42.760 is good tips. We need public participation, people standing up 2:35:42.800 --> 2:35:45.440 when they see something wrong, they see appoaching happening, that 2:35:45.640 --> 2:35:48.440 call us and give us the information. In Montana, we 2:35:48.480 --> 2:35:50.680 have a program. We call it the Tipmont Program, Turn 2:35:50.760 --> 2:35:53.640 In Poachers Montana. It's a one eight hundred number, one 2:35:53.680 --> 2:35:56.600 eight hundred tip Mont Tipmont. 2:35:56.879 --> 2:35:58.320 Is that a pretty valuable tool for you guys? 2:35:58.440 --> 2:36:02.280 Absolutely absolutely. It's not a as you just mentioned, call 2:36:02.400 --> 2:36:05.080 and ask a question on a regulation line. It's not 2:36:05.240 --> 2:36:08.920 aligned to call and get your your bobcat tagged. But 2:36:09.040 --> 2:36:12.640 it's aligned to report tips that can be anonymous if 2:36:12.680 --> 2:36:16.320 you want on wildlife poaching, wildlife crimes that are current. 2:36:16.360 --> 2:36:19.520 It could be the restaurants, commercialization, could be someone taking 2:36:19.600 --> 2:36:22.400 a trophy animal at a district, all sorts of things 2:36:22.480 --> 2:36:26.480 you could report to us. You can remain anonymous. You 2:36:26.520 --> 2:36:31.000 can also be eligible for cash rewards if if there's 2:36:31.000 --> 2:36:34.160 a conviction or an arrest that occurs with that case. 2:36:35.000 --> 2:36:37.959 Some other states, interesting enough, like Utah are actually starting 2:36:38.040 --> 2:36:43.360 to award tags for turning in poachers. So in Utah, yeah, 2:36:43.520 --> 2:36:46.959 you can. You can turn in a poacher on whatever, 2:36:47.160 --> 2:36:49.720 an elk or sheep tag and as long as it's 2:36:49.800 --> 2:36:53.199 biologically sustainable and the department supports it, you could skip 2:36:53.280 --> 2:36:56.000 the cash reward and get a limited draw tag for 2:36:56.120 --> 2:36:57.960 your reward for that area for whatever species. 2:36:59.000 --> 2:37:00.920 Way to get a tag that's going to perk the 2:37:01.000 --> 2:37:01.480 people up. 2:37:01.600 --> 2:37:04.600 Man. Wow, it doesn't exist in Montana right now, but 2:37:04.680 --> 2:37:07.000 we have cash rewards. And two again, it's just it's 2:37:07.040 --> 2:37:07.800 doing the right thing. 2:37:08.160 --> 2:37:10.880 That kind of brings up like, is it entrapment if 2:37:10.920 --> 2:37:15.720 it's all civilians? Well, you know, to put that big 2:37:15.800 --> 2:37:17.440 buck out in Steve's yard, So. 2:37:18.320 --> 2:37:20.200 I think about I don't have the exact quote in 2:37:20.240 --> 2:37:24.640 my head, but Aldo Leopold wrote about how you know, 2:37:25.000 --> 2:37:27.560 hunting and fishing is a sport in a way where 2:37:27.600 --> 2:37:30.280 you are your own referee. You know, when you're playing 2:37:30.320 --> 2:37:34.240 football or basketball, there's a referee walking around following you, 2:37:34.400 --> 2:37:36.440 calling a penalty on you every time you do it. 2:37:36.800 --> 2:37:38.600 We don't have that in hunting and fishing. We have 2:37:38.720 --> 2:37:41.000 to hold ourselves accountable and those around us to do 2:37:41.080 --> 2:37:43.920 it the right way, to protect it for the long term, 2:37:44.920 --> 2:37:49.199 into limit abuse. And also we talked about what is regulation? 2:37:49.280 --> 2:37:52.200 Where do laws come from? Problems? So the more we 2:37:52.360 --> 2:37:59.800 can do the right thing ethically sustainable, the less violent, 2:38:00.160 --> 2:38:03.040 less rules will be created that will interfere with our 2:38:03.160 --> 2:38:04.400 enjoyment of this resource. 2:38:04.840 --> 2:38:07.080 Gotcha, don't push everything to this. 2:38:07.640 --> 2:38:11.920 Absolutely, yeah, yeah, just do it the right way. Help 2:38:12.000 --> 2:38:14.480 us out. But give us a call if you know 2:38:14.640 --> 2:38:17.160 some poaching that's a current in the area. Please, We 2:38:17.600 --> 2:38:20.680 really need those tips and we make some amazing cases 2:38:20.720 --> 2:38:22.040 based on citizen evolvement. 2:38:22.959 --> 2:38:24.080 Well, thanks for coming on, man. 2:38:24.240 --> 2:38:26.720 Absolutely, we are going to start that ask game warding up. 2:38:27.680 --> 2:38:31.640 It's people live, call in see how it goes. 2:38:32.040 --> 2:38:35.560 Well, I'm sure I could get western. Thank you very much, 2:38:35.800 --> 2:38:36.920 Thank you, Thanks Adam. 2:38:37.560 --> 2:38:40.320 This appt outro song was sent in by podcast listener 2:38:40.440 --> 2:38:41.080 Peter Block. 2:38:41.920 --> 2:38:47.520 I'm with Fish and Game. Be careful where you aim. 2:38:48.760 --> 2:38:51.160 Don't shoot a dear that's team. 2:38:52.360 --> 2:38:53.160 Don't try to. 2:38:53.280 --> 2:38:59.600 Shift the blame. We'll find out your name. We've got 2:38:59.720 --> 2:39:05.279 four attracks, m their planes. Don't bring your family, shame 2:39:06.160 --> 2:39:07.240 the police, bothers. 2:39:07.320 --> 2:39:12.480 Don't claim to fame. Don't claim that you were afraid. 2:39:14.000 --> 2:39:39.120 Don't miss with Fish and Game. Bye with Fish and Game. 2:39:40.640 --> 2:39:46.120 Don't fish with and sane. Don't make a bogus claim. 2:39:47.240 --> 2:39:49.879 We have helicopters and trucks with chains. 2:39:51.040 --> 2:39:56.800 Our officers are well trained osive like John Wayne. 2:39:57.959 --> 2:40:04.840 Don't bring the lawn. Find the bird you made. We 2:40:05.040 --> 2:40:12.760 have a reputation to maintain. Don't mess with me Shan Gay, 2:40:21.520 --> 2:40:22.480 don't mess with me. 2:40:22.720 --> 2:40:27.000 Should game. Don't mess with me should Game