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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: This guy, you know, if you believe in Evil Gaskins,

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Speaker 2: was it violent? I mean, just extraordinarily violent.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas.

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Speaker 2: I'm also the co.

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Speaker 1: Host of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and

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Speaker 1: throughout my career, research for my many audio and book

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Speaker 1: projects has taken me around the world. On Wicked Words,

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Speaker 1: I sit down with the people I've met along the way,

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Speaker 1: amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, and podcasters who have investigated and

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Speaker 1: reported on notorious true crime cases. This is about the

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Speaker 1: choices writers make, both good and bad, and it's a

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Speaker 1: deep dive into the unpublished details behind their stories. Dick

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Speaker 1: Harputlian might be a name you recognize. He's from South

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Speaker 1: Carolina and he's one of Alex Murdaw's defense attorneys. But

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Speaker 1: he's also been a prosecutor, and one of his most

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Speaker 1: disturbing defendants was serial killer Donald pee Wee Gaskins. Dick

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Speaker 1: tells me the story of his trial from his book

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Speaker 1: dig Me a Grave. You know this is a big

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Speaker 1: switch for you is this something that you've been thinking

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Speaker 1: about a lot of nonfiction book which is part autobiography?

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Speaker 2: A little bit for you, it is part of autobiography.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think you could understand the case without

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Speaker 2: understanding me a little bit. Number one. Number two, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I've been thinking about it for thirty years writing a book.

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Speaker 2: This book especially was probably the toughest thing I've ever done,

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Speaker 2: Tougher than any of the fifteen death Ponty cases. I've done,

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Speaker 2: tougher than the Murdall case, tougher and all that. And

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Speaker 2: the reason that I came to the conclusion I have

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Speaker 2: had to do it, and I've been working on it

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Speaker 2: for a while was the murderer case, where you know,

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Speaker 2: I've tried murder cases on court TV before. I had

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Speaker 2: several very high profile cases, but I never saw the

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Speaker 2: incendiary influence of social media. Twitter ticked to all of that,

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Speaker 2: creating this tremendous interest where millions of people watch it

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Speaker 2: every day. And I can remember one morning walking into

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Speaker 2: the courthouse and there's some folks sleeping on the courthouse

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Speaker 2: lawn in sleeping bags, and I was just sort of,

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Speaker 2: you know, this is very early in the try. I

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Speaker 2: don't think we anticipated, nor did we believe it was

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Speaker 2: going to be that kind of interest. And so I

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Speaker 2: said to one of them, what are you doing? He said, well,

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Speaker 2: I'm waiting to get one of the two hundred seats

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom. And I said where are you from?

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Speaker 2: And he said Kansas. I said, you drove all the

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Speaker 2: way from Kansas to sit in the court and he said,

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Speaker 2: I want to be part of it. I said, you

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Speaker 2: know what's on TV. You can walk. You can see

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Speaker 2: it better on TV. Not the same, not the same.

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Speaker 2: And we had people there from californ Arizona, Canada. So

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Speaker 2: you know, I was just knocked back by the interest

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Speaker 2: in true crime and that sort of got me to

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Speaker 2: the point where I had to get it done, and

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Speaker 2: we got it done.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's start from the beginning, and then I definitely

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Speaker 1: have some questions around how you, as a prosecutor and

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Speaker 1: a defense attorney view clients or you know, would be

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Speaker 1: offenders or suspects, depending on what your role is. But

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Speaker 1: let's start with the beginning with this story. So you know,

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Speaker 1: there's no bones about it. We're talking about a serial killer.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell me? I guess first where he came from?

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Speaker 1: Because from what I know he had a very difficult childhood.

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Speaker 1: I had read that he didn't know his first name

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Speaker 1: until he had to go to a court appearance because

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Speaker 1: his mother was so neglectful.

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Speaker 2: Is that right, Well, he didn't know his last name.

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Speaker 2: His last name was. He thought he was named Parrot,

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Speaker 2: but didn't find out, so he went to a court

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Speaker 2: appearance as real fod was a guy named Gaskins, and

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Speaker 2: he entered. I mean he had a very difficult childhood.

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Speaker 2: His mother told I don't think he was a psychiatrist,

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Speaker 2: but told somebody that evaluated him very young in life,

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Speaker 2: at ten or twelve, that he had drunk some kerosene

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Speaker 2: when he was a small baby, and she thought that

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Speaker 2: affected his behavior. He had a temper that went off

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Speaker 2: like explosively, and it was proved. And when he was fourteen,

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Speaker 2: he got caught by a little girl, twelve year old

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Speaker 2: girl next door to his house, breaking into the house.

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Speaker 2: He took an axe and hit her in the head

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Speaker 2: with it, put her down, thought she was dead, left

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Speaker 2: her in a ditch. That's at fourteen, he goes off

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Speaker 2: to the reformatory that only even performatory that existed at

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Speaker 2: the time, called the Florence School. For white boys. This

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Speaker 2: is the South, it's the forties. There is no reformatory

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Speaker 2: for black kids. It's only for white boys. And it

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Speaker 2: was a big room that probably fifty of them swept

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Speaker 2: in every night. And he being at that time he

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Speaker 2: was probably four foot something and slight of b there's

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Speaker 2: no question he was sexually assaulted over and over and

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Speaker 2: over again. He escaped eight or nine times. In one escape,

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Speaker 2: attempted one of the other little boys with him, want

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Speaker 2: him to go back, grabbed him. We pulled out a

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Speaker 2: butcher knife and cut his finger off as he grabbed

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Speaker 2: him and took off. The report, and I've read the

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Speaker 2: report and it's cited in the book by the superintendent

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Speaker 2: of the institution said, this young man has homicidal tendencies

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Speaker 2: and will no doubt kill one day. Fifteen years old

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Speaker 2: at the time, So that's in the forties. If somebody

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Speaker 2: had listened, maybe there'd be fourteen, fifteen or more people

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Speaker 2: still alive. But so he had, when I say troubled childhood,

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Speaker 2: more than troubled. Of course. He escaped one time and

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Speaker 2: went and went to Fard and we had some carnival

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Speaker 2: down there, met a bunch of people learned how to

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Speaker 2: be a carnie, and then he was recaptured and brought back.

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Speaker 2: And then you know, as he goes through life he

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Speaker 2: becomes a car thief. Well, he learned skills. He can

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Speaker 2: fix car, he can steal cars. He was a roofer, electrician, plumber,

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Speaker 2: all these skills. And at the same time he was

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Speaker 2: when I say married six times, I don't think he

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Speaker 2: ever really got married, just got a new wife and

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Speaker 2: had numerous girlfriends. The common theme were young, fourteen, fifteen

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Speaker 2: years old. He was charged with statutory rate one time

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Speaker 2: on a fourteen year old who he thought of as

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Speaker 2: his wife. He was in love with her. So he

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Speaker 2: had all the markings of somebody who was a sociopath,

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Speaker 2: antisocial predictably was going to kill.

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Speaker 1: You know, people often ask me do you think people

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Speaker 1: are born evil? They asked me that, and I said no,

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Speaker 1: I say, I don't think they're born evil. I think

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Speaker 1: people do evil things. I think there are people who,

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Speaker 1: you know, are born into awful situations and they go

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Speaker 1: on to be absolutely incredible people. And you know, the

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Speaker 1: same can be said, of course for people who grow

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Speaker 1: up in seemingly great conditions and they turn out to

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Speaker 1: be you know, murderers or rapists. So do you think that, well,

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Speaker 1: number one, what do you think about that? And then

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Speaker 1: number two, there seem to have been opportunities for pee

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Speaker 1: Wee to have not gone down this road, but it

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Speaker 1: just feels like, sort of he's he's destined to go

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Speaker 1: down that road.

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Speaker 2: What did you think? I mean, I think he was

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Speaker 2: destined to go down that road. And now, whether he

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Speaker 2: was born that way or made that way very young,

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Speaker 2: and I mean clearly he was molested by the men

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Speaker 2: that visited his mother. I mean I think he was

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Speaker 2: sexually abused from probably two years old through that time

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Speaker 2: at the school for white boys. And I think that

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Speaker 2: is traumatic and creates a tremendous amount of anger, hate, resentment,

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Speaker 2: and wants to show that he has the same power

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Speaker 2: as somebody that isn't five foot two in weigh one

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Speaker 2: hundred and ten pounds, And the easiest way to do

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Speaker 2: that is kill somebody, or kill anybody that gets in

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Speaker 2: your way. By the way, he never confronted somebody and

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Speaker 2: killed them. Typically it was from behind or large marched

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Speaker 2: him out at gunpoint and shot out him in the

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Speaker 2: back of the head. Now, the book starts with a

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Speaker 2: scenario was a young woman he had dated a number

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Speaker 2: of years, not saying a couple of years she left,

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Speaker 2: went somewhere else and showed up on his doorstep a

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Speaker 2: couple of years later with a two year old child,

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Speaker 2: and she was pregnant, and clearly the child was of

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Speaker 2: mixed race, according to Gaskins, and she admitted she was

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Speaker 2: pregnant by a black man. So he comforted her and

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Speaker 2: took her down to the pond behind the house, and

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Speaker 2: while the baby sat on the bank, he pushed her

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Speaker 2: in the water and drowned her. He then took a

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Speaker 2: hammer to the baby. But in pee Wee's mind, he

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Speaker 2: was doing them a favor. I mean, world would be

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Speaker 2: very cruel to that mixed race. He was doing her

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Speaker 2: and the baby a favor in his mind.

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Speaker 1: So we know that his background was terrible, it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: and then he starts picking up these criminal skills. When

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Speaker 1: does this start to turn to murder? Is it the

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Speaker 1: first woman that you were talking about with a child?

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Speaker 1: Is that his first victim?

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Speaker 2: Pee Wee's first murders occurred in the fall of nineteen seventy.

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Speaker 2: They began with him pulling into a drive in restaurant

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Speaker 2: where there was a carful of girls, two of whom

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Speaker 2: he knew his niece Janice Kirby and her friend Patty Olsborough.

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Speaker 2: Both of them are teenagers under eighteen. His niece Kirby

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Speaker 2: told him that Patty had had so much to drink

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Speaker 2: she couldn't drive. I needed to sober up. Gaskins offered

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Speaker 2: to take them to his house where Patty could sober up.

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Speaker 2: When they got to the house, Kirby I think went

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Speaker 2: to the restroom. When she came back in pee wee

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Speaker 2: had Patty on the bed, was pulling her pants off,

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Speaker 2: and he was holding a butcher knife. They pushed him aside,

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Speaker 2: ran outside, and he ultimately had a pistol, chased them down,

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Speaker 2: brought them back to the house, where he beat both

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Speaker 2: of them to death. He then put them in his vehicle,

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Speaker 2: which was a hearse at the time, drove them into

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Speaker 2: the swamp, or into an area near the swamp, where

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Speaker 2: he put both their bodies in a septic tank. One

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Speaker 2: of the murders, sort of the more famous murder was

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Speaker 2: he killed a businessman who had a girlfriend named Suzanne

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Speaker 2: long Legs Owens, and this older businessman had promised Suzanne

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Speaker 2: that he would give her a bunch of stuff in

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Speaker 2: the house and all that, and he renegged on him,

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Speaker 2: so she hired Pee Wee for a thousand dollars to

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Speaker 2: kill him, which he did. And then he began a

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Speaker 2: romantic relationship with Suzanne Owens, who was at least almost

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Speaker 2: a foot taller than him, hence the name long Legs.

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Speaker 2: And there are love letters, messages and phone calls between

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Speaker 2: Pee Weee on death row and her, and he advises

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Speaker 2: her how to escape and she does. Matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: when the threat to kidnap my daughter came as a

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Speaker 2: result of Donnie Gaskins, Pee's son, telling somebody that Daddy

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Speaker 2: wants me to kidnap Swisser Herbebian's daughter and hold her hostage.

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Speaker 2: And that got uncovered when that kid he talked to

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Speaker 2: went to the sheriff. We were concerned Owens, Suzanne Longley

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Speaker 2: Owens was still an escapee and where was she We

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Speaker 2: didn't know. And he had it wasn't a cult, but

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Speaker 2: he had people that followed him, the sort of the

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Speaker 2: miscreants of society, as you'll see in the book. They

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Speaker 2: none of them were rocket scientists.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about he's starting to become paranoid, right

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Speaker 1: because he's getting deeper and deeper into criminal activity that

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Speaker 1: would be very serious for him if he's caught, and

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Speaker 1: he would go to prison. So are these associates at first,

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Speaker 1: and they are unaware of his boundaries, it sounds like.

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Speaker 1: And when they cross a boundary, he doesn't let him know.

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Speaker 1: He just kills them.

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Speaker 2: Correct and he For instance, he had a young girl

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Speaker 2: when I say young girl, probably sixteen years old, that

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Speaker 2: he had a relationship with, but she knew too much

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Speaker 2: and so she turned up missing, told her parents that

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Speaker 2: she'd gone. He was in the middle of the state,

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Speaker 2: and the pd that had gone to Charleston, she never

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Speaker 2: showed up there any Later on admitted killing her because

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Speaker 2: he was afraid she was going to talk. He really

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Speaker 2: can't make this stuff up. Pee Wee drove a hearse.

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Speaker 2: He drove a hearse that was his vehicle during this

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Speaker 2: period of time, and everybody laughed at pee Wee because

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Speaker 2: he's driving aharse. He was doing roofing, he was doing plumbing,

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Speaker 2: he was doing you know, some auto mechanic stuff. But

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Speaker 2: he drove ahearse around and from time to time there

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Speaker 2: was a body in the back of that hearse, which

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Speaker 2: he drove down to the swamp and bury. So I

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Speaker 2: mean again five foot two, little guy, and I say affiable,

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Speaker 2: I mean very friendly, engaging. Several of the people that

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Speaker 2: I talked to from Sumter, including a judge that had

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Speaker 2: known him during this period of time, said, man, everybody

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Speaker 2: loved pee Wee. Everybody was you know he needed something done,

235
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Speaker 2: like your roof done, or you needed you know, plumbing

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Speaker 2: done or whatever, he'd come over and do it for you.

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Speaker 2: Everybody knew him.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the victims here, So tell me

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Speaker 1: about the girls that he ends up killing. Are these

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Speaker 1: girls who are not involved with their families or and

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Speaker 1: nobody was come looking for them.

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Speaker 2: These are the folks of the jetsment of our society.

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Speaker 2: They run aways, They gravitate towards pee Wee. He's older,

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Speaker 2: he has relationships with him. Primarily there was one I've

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Speaker 2: just mentioned. The rest of the girls other than his

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Speaker 2: niece and her friend and the dope dealer, the rest

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Speaker 2: were men. And there were men involved in either stealing

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Speaker 2: the cars or fencing the cars, or knew about other

249
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Speaker 2: murders he committed. And it's complicated. Take me an hour

250
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Speaker 2: just to explain this network of how they all become

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Speaker 2: related in between Florence, Sumter and North Charleston, South Carolina,

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Speaker 2: and several different wives Pee Wee had. They're not really

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Speaker 2: wives because they you never got married. We never had

254
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Speaker 2: a merit, you know, a licensed to get married. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: he calls some girl his wife for five years and

256
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Speaker 2: considering years or two years, and then all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden he had a new wife, and that wife ended

258
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Speaker 2: up with one of his friends, one of his associates. Clearly,

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Speaker 2: Pee Wee was smart. I'm not talking about high IQ cunning, calculating,

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Speaker 2: and again seems so I mean, I've been victimized by it.

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Speaker 2: He so friendly to me, so engaging, and a little humor. Dick,

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Speaker 2: you know, you're a lot like me kind of stuff.

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Speaker 1: Had you in your past as a prosecutor or any

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Speaker 1: of your various rules before Pee Wee in the seventies,

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Speaker 1: had you encountered anybody like him? I understand, not to

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Speaker 1: the scale of what he was doing, but is this

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Speaker 1: a familiar character to you?

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Speaker 2: The kind of globe No, I mean first and last

269
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Speaker 2: again referred to me by my first name, and I

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Speaker 2: engaged him on his first name. I mean, by the

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Speaker 2: time I got to Pee Wee, I prosecuted probably over

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Speaker 2: one hundred murdered cases in eight years, fifteen death public

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Speaker 2: cases back when, by the way, when I started prosecuting

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Speaker 2: death the cases in nineteen seventy five, and so my

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Speaker 2: first murder case Victor Jerry on Monday morning at ten

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Speaker 2: o'clock sentence to death of two o'clock Tuesday afternoon. Wo

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Speaker 2: it was a far different time. I don't believe a

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Speaker 2: defendant ever spoke to me in a courtroom. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I can remember one who was angry and looked at

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Speaker 2: me on the way out and said, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: kill you, you son of a bitch, which you know I'd

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Speaker 2: be angry too. I mean, it's an expected but not

283
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Speaker 2: engaging like Pee Wee. Peewee was unique in the sense

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Speaker 2: that he could charm anybody and did and charm many

285
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Speaker 2: of these folks to take a ride with him. They

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Speaker 2: never came back from.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think that the great thing about this

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Speaker 2: book is explained a little bit about me and how

290
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Speaker 2: I got to where I was. You know, I didn't

291
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Speaker 2: grow up wanting to be a lawyer or a prosecutor

292
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Speaker 2: in the sixties, long hair anti war. Okay, that's not

293
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Speaker 2: what you think of when you think of a prosecutor. No,

294
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Speaker 2: during law school didn't change much. Helped the guy beat

295
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Speaker 2: a twenty five year incumbent DA. He asked me to

296
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Speaker 2: come work for him. Why would I want to do that?

297
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Speaker 2: And the reason I did it ondly was he paid

298
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Speaker 2: me ten five hundred dollars a year, which is about

299
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Speaker 2: twenty five hundred bucks more than most warriors are getting

300
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Speaker 2: starting in nineteen seventy five. I didn't sell like a

301
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Speaker 2: lot of money now, but gas was ten cents a gallon. Okay,

302
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Speaker 2: let me put it in perspective for you, say, rests

303
00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,120
Speaker 2: for ten cents a pack. So I took that job.

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Speaker 2: Primarily he told me, you know, you can change the

305
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Speaker 2: system from the inside. And I started with juveniles, but

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Speaker 2: within six months I was prosecuting murder cases and putting

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Speaker 2: the pieces together. And back then, remember no DNA, no fingerprints,

308
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Speaker 2: no cameras. I mean, we did it the old fashioned way,

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Speaker 2: and we had witnesses and you know, you had to

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Speaker 2: convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt. But I enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: I loved it, actually, And Gaskins was my third death

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Speaker 2: pilday case in eighteen months. And so when it was

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Speaker 2: over with after six weeks. I mean typically a trial

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Speaker 2: and South Carolina back then was taking a week. But

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Speaker 2: after six weeks, I was exhausted mentally and fiscally and

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Speaker 2: decided to do something else, to be a defense attorney.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to you know, he's got these

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Speaker 1: two groups it sounds like, which were associates, kind of

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Speaker 1: criminal associates. He's got these girls we have to describe

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Speaker 1: as girls essentially, and then you know the crossover of

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Speaker 1: people who just seem to really piss him off, like

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Speaker 1: you know, the two young women who were staying with him.

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Speaker 1: At what point and what years are we talking about

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Speaker 1: where he finally gets tripped up and gets caught somehow,

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Speaker 1: because you're describing this as these are all people on

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Speaker 1: the fringe of society here who it sounds like nobody's

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Speaker 1: looking for him or rattling the cages of South Carolina

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Speaker 1: police or anything like that once they all start going missing.

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Speaker 2: Well, in the early seventies basically when all this was

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Speaker 2: going on, late sixties, early seventies, there are critical times

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Speaker 2: when people who knew something got in a hotspot, got

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Speaker 2: the pressure put on him, and of course he gets

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Speaker 2: tried on tumor sentenced to death. They don't know how

334
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,840
Speaker 2: many you're out there, but he gets sentenced to death.

335
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Speaker 2: One is long Leg's boyfriend. He then the Furman versus Georgia,

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Speaker 2: which for your listeners's case, came down I can think

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Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy four, which said you get a bifurcated trial.

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Speaker 2: You can't just got to be guilt or innocence, and

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Speaker 2: then enunciated aggravating circumstances and mitigating circumstances, and the jury

340
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Speaker 2: has to separately decide what the sentence is. And Furman

341
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Speaker 2: comes down and I mean it's sentenced to death. Is vacated.

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Speaker 2: He was convinced, and the DA guy named Kenny Somerford

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Speaker 2: told him was going to be a retrial and he

344
00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 2: could be sentenced to death again. Somerford told him that

345
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Speaker 2: his lawyer signed off on it. But somer Ford said this, hewey,

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Speaker 2: if you'll tell me about all the murders you've committed,

347
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Speaker 2: I'll guarantee you a life sentence on all those murders. Now,

348
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,000
Speaker 2: if you don't tell us about one, you're going to

349
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 2: be liable for the death building. So in my office

350
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Speaker 2: I have the transcript of the two day interview with

351
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 2: Peewee five hundred pages where he gives the details of

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Speaker 2: every one of these murders. I mean, that's why, in

353
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Speaker 2: terms of factual renditions, his words and other statements by

354
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 2: other co defendants pretty well lock him into the thirteen

355
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 2: previous murders. And of course then he gets life. And

356
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy five or seventy six went after he

357
00:19:24,000 --> 00:19:26,880
Speaker 2: pled and got the thirteen life sentences. You were eligible

358
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,960
Speaker 2: parole in ten years because prior to that, penalty for

359
00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,640
Speaker 2: murder was death unless the jury recommended mercy. When they

360
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,399
Speaker 2: went to the spiifurcated system, they never changed the penalty

361
00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,320
Speaker 2: and parole for life life. You're eligible parole in ten years.

362
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:44,919
Speaker 2: So and you can hear on some of the tapes

363
00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 2: where pee Wee's talking to his wife about make sure

364
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 2: the kids come, make sure everybody sees you here. I

365
00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,520
Speaker 2: want to be able to I've got a spotless record.

366
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Speaker 2: I'm head trustee for this cell block. Let's just make

367
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Speaker 2: a record so I can get parolled one day. He's

368
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,160
Speaker 2: very he's calculate about that. But and this was okay.

369
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Speaker 2: So he death fell, he vacated. Given these life sentences

370
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 2: could get out in as little as ten years, probably

371
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,320
Speaker 2: more like twenty. He and we don't think it was

372
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:16,919
Speaker 2: for money. Undertook a plot to kill a guy on

373
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Speaker 2: death row named Tyner, African American from New York who

374
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,919
Speaker 2: had killed the parents of a guy named Tony Simo

375
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,160
Speaker 2: down on the beach during an arm robbery. He gets

376
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,720
Speaker 2: them to smuggle in some poison, and you can hear

377
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 2: on the tapes he just takes it, gets sick. He said,

378
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:35,560
Speaker 2: Now you get me a quarter stick of dynamite in

379
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,520
Speaker 2: a blasting cap. Won't be no coming back from that.

380
00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 2: Simo says, well, I can get you some plastic explosive.

381
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: He said, well, get it to me and just sit

382
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 2: back and listen for the bang. And so he creates

383
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 2: an ingenious let me see if I can describe this

384
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 2: for you, and the FBI did a model of cell

385
00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:56,800
Speaker 2: block two for us, which I still have. Where Peewee

386
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 2: was the head trustee in the selback because he could

387
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,120
Speaker 2: do plumbing, he could do electrical work, so they made

388
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 2: him the head trustee and he hired all the other

389
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,720
Speaker 2: not hired, but appointed all the other trustees the runners.

390
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 2: And so he decided who got to deliver food to

391
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: death roat, which was one of the tiers, the second

392
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,680
Speaker 2: tier on the cell block on one side. Peewee's cell

393
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 2: was on the other side, and he had a vent

394
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 2: and death row cell bock at a vent on the

395
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,520
Speaker 2: back of their cells. And he began yelling to Tinier

396
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 2: to befriend him. Can I get you some marijuana? Can

397
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 2: I get you some food? Can I get you this?

398
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,800
Speaker 2: Can I get you that? And he got it to him.

399
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 2: Simo arranged for some poison and he smuggled in. They

400
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: killed a dog with it, experimenting with it, and Pee

401
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: Wee on the phone call says it's just making him sick.

402
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:45,679
Speaker 2: And so he asked them to get him the explosives.

403
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: And so Pee Wee takes an unbreakable prison cup drinking

404
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 2: glass if you will, made out of plastic that's unbreakable.

405
00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: He had a soldering iron. He melted a hole.

406
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: In the bottom a soldering iron. What is this from

407
00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 1: the workshop that he was in.

408
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 2: No, No, he had in his cell. I have Pee

409
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 2: we sell his toolbox.

410
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 1: You need to explain steps. There's no recording of phone

411
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:09,560
Speaker 1: calls at this point right in the seventies.

412
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: No, no, no, he is going to a payphone in

413
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,840
Speaker 2: the hall and putting a suction cup on it and

414
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,880
Speaker 2: recording his phone calls. No, they're not recording phone calls. Yes,

415
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:24,240
Speaker 2: he's got a soidering iron, screwdriver, wire tools, and so

416
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 2: he makes He puts a female plug there, connects that

417
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,719
Speaker 2: to the blasting gap, puts the C four in there,

418
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 2: and then on top of that he puts nails and

419
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,160
Speaker 2: screws and all kinds of sharp metal and then glues

420
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 2: a speaker on top of it and tells Tyner it's

421
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 2: a intercom so he doesn't have to yell anymore. And

422
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 2: he runs a wire from his cell to tyner cell

423
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: where it's got a male plug on the end of it,

424
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: and he tells Tyner to plug it in. Can you

425
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 2: hear me? When? And Tyner apparently, I mean the story

426
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: is now. I don't know who confirms this that Tyner.

427
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 2: I know where Tyner ended up holding it up to

428
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 2: his ear because Pee Wee plugs the other end into

429
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: the one ten in his cell and it goes off

430
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: and literally blows Tyner's hand and most of his head off,

431
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,479
Speaker 2: just brutal. Pee Wee pulls the wire back through, quips

432
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: it up, flushes it down the commode and then comes

433
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 2: out of a cell with everybody going what was that?

434
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 2: What was that? So the rumors and the way he

435
00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 2: gets caught is pretty amazing. The rumors went around to

436
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,640
Speaker 2: the guy named Al Waters, investigator and by the way,

437
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 2: when I first got called on this case, there was

438
00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,880
Speaker 2: the report was that an inmate on death row had

439
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 2: tried to escape, blow his way out with a match

440
00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: head bomb and killed himself, and pretty quickly the determined

441
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 2: it was C four explosive was then he matched. So

442
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,800
Speaker 2: Al had heard pe we was somehow involved, so he

443
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: went to Pee Wee Sell made him strip lock to

444
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,639
Speaker 2: Sell down and Pee Wee had a collection of thirty

445
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: six cassette tapes, but he had been tape recording. You know,

446
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: there's gospel music there was. He was a big Tanya

447
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 2: Tucker fan, and you know those thirty six tapes. There's

448
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: probably twelve to fourteen minutes of these discussions with Simo,

449
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: multiple phone calls where he's arranging to kill Al. To

450
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: his credit, sat down personally listened to all of them.

451
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: Found the smoking gun. It was pretty easy then to

452
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 2: tie it to Pee Wee. We needed to figure out

453
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: how we got the bomb. There was a guy named

454
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 2: James Brown. Again it's a nonfiction book, but couldn't make

455
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,880
Speaker 2: these characters up, who was convicted serving two life sentences.

456
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,400
Speaker 2: He had two Jehovah's witnesses women come to his house

457
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 2: one afternoon while he was watching a ball game, shot

458
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 2: both of them in the head and then had sex

459
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 2: with them. So he ended up being the guy that

460
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,480
Speaker 2: delivers the bomb to death Row because he was the

461
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 2: guy that delivered food and he testified. He also testified

462
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 2: he was Peewee's lover. That was explosive moment in the trial,

463
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: which is again recounted in the book. So, I mean,

464
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: these are the waste product of society, all of them.

465
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 2: And you know, if you're trying to figure out how

466
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 2: they got there. You know, I've been doing this for

467
00:24:56,440 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: fifty years, and typically you can see somebody do something

468
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: because of passion or avarice, greed. Yet rapists that commit

469
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 2: rapes because it's not about the sex, but the violence

470
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,719
Speaker 2: to women and the control, all those things are easy

471
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: to analyze, not easy to analyze, but much easier to

472
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: analyze and diagnose than what I saw here. I've prosecuted

473
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,959
Speaker 2: a bunch of strange murders murders that defied well they

474
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 2: didn't defy explanation. They were explainable, but the reasons were bizarre.

475
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 2: This guy, if you believe in evil Gaskins, was it

476
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: friendly yet violent? I mean just extraordinarily violent and committed

477
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 2: violence in a very aggressive way.

478
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,639
Speaker 1: Well, let's go back to where we are in Gaskin's

479
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: life when people turn on him. Can you describe the

480
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: turning point where finally he's linked to all of these

481
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: murders from different people.

482
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: Well, because people that silas the ace would is the

483
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 2: one he originally got the death Ponty four. There were people,

484
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: there was a guy that helped pee wee and ended

485
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 2: up testifying against him. That's what got him the first

486
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: death penalty that was later overturned, and that was sort

487
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 2: of the beginning of the end for him because after that,

488
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: you know, he never got out of jail until he

489
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: was executed. So he was committing these murders and getting

490
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,560
Speaker 2: away with him. Whether it was the girl that he

491
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 2: said went to Charleston, or the pregnant woman or the baby,

492
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: they weren't fighting any bodies. Only after the deal was cut,

493
00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 2: after he got convicted the h murder sentenced to death,

494
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,600
Speaker 2: overturn did he begin. I mean, he got this deal

495
00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: to reveal the other twelve or so murders he committed.

496
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: So it was that guy Johnny E. Powell, I think

497
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 2: was his name that rolled on pee Wee. But pee

498
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 2: Wee was always suspecting other folks of getting ready to

499
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: roll on or talk, and those are folks he just

500
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: followed out in the woods and shot him in the

501
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,399
Speaker 2: back of the head. The Digmy a Grave title of

502
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 2: this book comes from one of those episodes where he

503
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: shoot somebody in the back of a head and he

504
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 2: tells the guy with him, dig me a grave, Paint

505
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 2: that picture for me. Right?

506
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,439
Speaker 1: What year was it? When this kind of finally ends

507
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,160
Speaker 1: and Johnny turns on him?

508
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 2: It ends in like seventy three or seventy four. I'd

509
00:27:12,119 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: have to go back and look at the book to

510
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,679
Speaker 2: find the exact dates when he gets convicted on the

511
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 2: siwas Ates murder.

512
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: Do you come in with this part of the case

513
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: or when do you appear.

514
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,120
Speaker 2: So I don't appear well, I appear in eighty two

515
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 2: when he's charged. Everything you're asking me about is historical.

516
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 2: I wasn't a part of any of that. The rest

517
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 2: of it is primarily garnered from that five hundred page

518
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 2: confession he gave prosecutors Kenny Somerford, which was transcribed and

519
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 2: is an amazing read. And you know, Peewee wrote a

520
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: book called The Final Truth, which was published after his death,

521
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 2: where he claimed have killed one hundred people and kidnapped

522
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 2: girls and mutilated their bodies. I think all of that

523
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 2: is totally bs. I think he wanted to be bigger

524
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: than what he was. Again, somebody who had suffered abuse

525
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: after abuse after abuse wanted to be a dangerous guy.

526
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: And of course the best way to exhibit that is

527
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: killed people. So Ever, say you killed people.

528
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: What were you doing? In seventy three seventy four.

529
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 2: I was in law school and I remember reading about Gaskins.

530
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 2: He's a big deal. When he got prosecuted for the

531
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 2: initial orders and then confessed to the rest, it was,

532
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody in the state was going, what the hell?

533
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 2: I killed thirteen people? And he would on occasion I say, well,

534
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: I remembered another one. He'd get out of prison taken

535
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,400
Speaker 2: by sweat agents to some remote part of the swamp,

536
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: and every agent there I've talked to a bunch of

537
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 2: them felt like every one of those trips was an

538
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: effort on his part to escape. They remember I talked

539
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: to Tom Henderson, who was a sweat agent that took

540
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: him out on one of those trips, and they could

541
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: see a car across the field going back and forth

542
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 2: and pee wee looking at it and trying to alcolate

543
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: whether he could get there or not. Billy Barnes, a

544
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 2: sheriff in Florence, recounts when he was taken to court

545
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,240
Speaker 2: on one of the early murders that as he was

546
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: shuffling towards the courthouse, something fell and it was a

547
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 2: pair of handcuff keys. Had no idea where he got.

548
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: He escaped time and time again. Now when he got

549
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: to our courthouse in nineteen eighty two, it was a

550
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: new courthouse. No, there were no windows. This is I

551
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: mean that opened anyway. I mean no windows in any area.

552
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 2: No cour you know the old days he had these

553
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: eighteen foot ceilings with these big windows that opened and

554
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 2: the holding cell at least in one courthouse. He escaped

555
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 2: by getting one of the bars out and then dropping

556
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: twenty feet. He broke his ankle, hid under a car

557
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: while the cops are looking for him. Next day they

558
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: came back, and then the dew on the windshield of

559
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: the car pee we had written, ha ha tee wee

560
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 2: was here. And I guess if the book has a message,

561
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 2: it is was he born evil? Or was he made evil?

562
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: But he ended up evil?

563
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: Tell me what happens in order from seventy three until

564
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: you get this case, which is eighty two eighty three.

565
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: You said, yep, I mean he gets convicted of the

566
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 2: eighth murder and one other murder, sentenced to death. Those

567
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 2: get reversed. He then gives this confession and he gets

568
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,520
Speaker 2: to CCI. And now CCI is the prison central Correctional

569
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 2: Institution here in Columbia, long since torn down, but one

570
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 2: of the wings was built in eighteen forty eight. For

571
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 2: you folks from around the country, you don't realize that

572
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: Sherman not only burned Atlanta, but he came through Columbia

573
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: and burned it to the crown. And he housed his

574
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: horses in this prison, so it was not burned down.

575
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: A number of cell walks were built after the Civil War,

576
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 2: but they were I mean it was unair conditioned. Having

577
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: gone down there a bunch on this case, I can

578
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 2: still smell that odor of that body odor and cigarettes

579
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: and unwashed bodies. It was a despicable place and basically

580
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 2: run by the animates. And Pee Wee was one of

581
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: the people that ran it. And ccis he pointed out

582
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,240
Speaker 2: a moment ago. I mean, here's the guy that's in

583
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: charge of the cell block serving thirteen life sentences. He's

584
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: got a slider in iron screwdrivers. He's got all the

585
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 2: things he needs to fix the electrical work and the

586
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: plumbing work at the prison, but also to make one

587
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: hell of a bomb or a weapon. Think about that,

588
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: thirteen murders into giving him sharp objects. It boggles the mind.

589
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: How they weren't recording phone calls when I got involved.

590
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: Got a call from Al Waters at the Department Corrections

591
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 2: as he began to investigate this. Clearly, when you saw

592
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: the crime scene photos and FBI reports, clearly this was

593
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: a hit. This was an execution. Then Al found the tapes.

594
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: And this is Tyner, right, and he blows them up

595
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 1: on behalf of His name was Simo.

596
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 2: Tony Simo was the Sun of the Moons. And they

597
00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 2: were robbed and they were in the middle of an

598
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: arm robber. Tyner shot both of them at the shotgun

599
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: in this sort of a side story there where Simo

600
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: lived near the store and saw Tyner walking towards the

601
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 2: store that night. He knew Tyner not to be a

602
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: good guy, but he went back to watching whatever his

603
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: television show was and see Tony. Simo was obsessed with

604
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 2: Tyner dying and Tyner was tried, convicted, sentence to death, reversed,

605
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: tried and sentenced to death again. Took like eight years

606
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: at that point, and Simo just lost his patience. And

607
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: I can tell you, having interviewed him, he had no

608
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 2: regret whatsoever. He was a happy man because Tyner had

609
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: been sent to hell. As he put it, he had

610
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 2: no regrets and would do it again to kill Tyner.

611
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: Did he pay Pee Wee to do this or did

612
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: pee Wee just do it because he liked killing people.

613
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: Simo never admitted paying him. There's no discussion of money

614
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: on any of these calls. And of course we never

615
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 2: never gave a statement on this murder. He did not

616
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: testify in the Kildar innocence phase. He did ask the

617
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 2: jury not to kill him in the sentencing phase. But

618
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 2: I suspect Pee Wee did it for fun. If you

619
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: come away with one thing from this book, it will

620
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: be that there's evil. There's no question there's evil out there,

621
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: but ultimately we as a society can deal with it. Now,

622
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: it took a while here because we didn't know he's

623
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 2: committing these murders any more than any other serial killer

624
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: gets caught after a number of killings. But Gaskins had

625
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:33,280
Speaker 2: gotten a waste so long and so off, you know,

626
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 2: and again trying to kidnap my daughter two weeks before

627
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: his execution.

628
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: You got to tell me about that. Let's talk about

629
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: that story.

630
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:39,959
Speaker 2: Okay.

631
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: Al Waters finds these tapes that he had recorded himself.

632
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: Pee weee?

633
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: Is that right?

634
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: Yep? Yep?

635
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: Why did he do that? I don't understand this man.

636
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 2: Why did he do that? Great question? And every cop

637
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 2: worked on this case and me had a theory he

638
00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: was going to blackmail Simo, as conniving as he was.

639
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 2: That's probably as good a guess as anything else. Another

640
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: theory was after he killed him, he just wanted to

641
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: listen to it and so he felt good about himself

642
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: or maybe play it for one of his minions. I

643
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:10,600
Speaker 2: don't know. But had he not done that, he would

644
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: have gotten away with it. Yeah, no question about it.

645
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 2: So you know, he gets prosecuted, sentenced to death In

646
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: March of nineteen eighty three, I left the swister's office

647
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 2: and went into practice with Jack Scrolling, a college chumb

648
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 2: of mine who was Pee Wee's defense for We just

649
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 2: spent six weeks together. He was working for a law

650
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 2: firm in town and decided, you know, he'd been doing

651
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 2: it eight years. I'd been out of law school eight

652
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: years and thought maybe I wanted to do something else,

653
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,319
Speaker 2: And so we went into practice together and had a

654
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 2: very successful criminal defense practice. I'm actually out playing golf

655
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: one day and he got a call from head of

656
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,719
Speaker 2: our state law enforcement division and said, where are you.

657
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: I said, I'm playing golf. He said, where's your daughter?

658
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: I said, well, she's in preschool. She's four years old.

659
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,520
Speaker 2: He said, are you sure? Now, let me tell you something.

660
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: When he said are you sure, oh my god, I

661
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: mean your heart seizes up. Why well, you need to

662
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: go pick her up right now. We'll have police officers

663
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 2: meet you there, and so I speed back. Police are there,

664
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 2: We get her home and then they debrief me. Two

665
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 2: weeks before he's be executed, Gaskins has his son visited him.

666
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 2: According to the son, who later gave a statement, and

667
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 2: the guy he approached his father said, look, they're going

668
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 2: to kill me unless we come up with a plan.

669
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 2: If you will kidnap the solicitor's four year old daughter,

670
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 2: hold her hostage, put her in the trunk of the car,

671
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: hold her hostage. Call Harpooty and tell him you've got

672
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 2: the daughter, and if he doesn't have me brought up

673
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 2: to the courthouse for a meeting in his office, you're

674
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: going to kill her. Now, what's interesting about that is

675
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 2: I had a back door to my office nobody knew about.

676
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 2: But if I could get if gaslings would get in

677
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: my office, le me tell the guards wait outside. If

678
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: he's handcuffs and all that, he could have escaped. I

679
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 2: mean he had a planned. Little Donnie went to a

680
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 2: friend of his. That's his son, right, Little Donnie's pee

681
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 2: Wee's son went to a friend of his and said, look,

682
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: daddy says he'll pay us five thousand dollars to do this.

683
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 2: The friend immediately picked up the phone and called the

684
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,680
Speaker 2: sheriff for Forrence County, Billy Barnes, who immediately had Little

685
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,399
Speaker 2: Gaskins arrested taken into custody. He actually arrested this kid too,

686
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: you know, he's the one that called and he got

687
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: them in custody, got my daughter and I and my

688
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: wife guarded twenty four to seven. Two weeks later he

689
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,080
Speaker 2: was executed. Now you know, before he's executed, he sliced

690
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: his wrists in an effort to avoid being executed. Doctor

691
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 2: came in. Of course, he cut him this way, which

692
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: doesn't do much. He stitched them up. One of the

693
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: officers down there talked to us and he said caske

694
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 2: and said, do you want to know where the razor is?

695
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 2: And he said yeah, and he spit it up. He

696
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: had it in his odor, in his mouth, not in

697
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 2: his mouth somewhere, spit it up, handed it over and said,

698
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 2: don't blame anybody. Nobody knew I had it. That's about

699
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: two hours before he was executed. He was electrocuted in

700
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 2: the electric chair, which was pretty brutal.

701
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 1: Did you witness his execution?

702
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 2: I did not. I was invited. Why would I want

703
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 2: to do that? I mean, what is it? Why would

704
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: I want to watch another human being burn to death?

705
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: Basically that's what electric chair does. Or now we have

706
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: the firing squad or shot to death or drug to death.

707
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 2: He would have relished that if you'd invited Pee wee

708
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 2: to watch somebody like, oh boy, he'd find that almost

709
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: sexually exciting. Let me say this to you, I've done

710
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 2: this for fifty years. Anybody says that they get closure

711
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 2: from something like that doesn't understand they never will get closure.

712
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 2: Watching somebody die is not going to give them closure.

713
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: It's going to give them more PTSD. I understand what

714
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 2: they think it's going to do, but in my experience,

715
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: it never has.

716
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: You know, I have read several studies that say that

717
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: for families who want the death penalty for the person

718
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: who murdered someone close to them, when either they see

719
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: the execution or the execution has been completed, that the

720
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: majority of them say it changed nothing. It didn't give

721
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 1: any kind of comfort, and they're surprised by that.

722
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: I mean, if you know, if somebody tells you he

723
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: was executed, that's one thing, and you understand that person's

724
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 2: paid for the crime they committed against your loved one.

725
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: But to watch it, I mean, pee we liked watching

726
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 2: people die? Yeah, I've watched too much violence in my life. Yeah,

727
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 2: as a prosecutor and a defense attorney, if it's voluntary,

728
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 2: I'd rather not see it.

729
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 1: Well throughout this discussion, I've heard of only two people

730
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: who were close quote unquote as close you could be

731
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: to pee Wee who survived and seemed loyal to him.

732
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 1: One was Suzanne long Legs, the woman whom he killed

733
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: her boyfriend for, and the other is Donnie the son.

734
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 1: What was the relationships like that stopped him from turning

735
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 1: on them at some point?

736
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 2: Well, he couldn't. He didn't have a chance to turn

737
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: on Donnie because he was executed before he I mean

738
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 2: Donnie was still in custody and Suzanne they had a

739
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 2: romantic relationship. There's some interesting phone calls and letters that

740
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,880
Speaker 2: we found later on where he was trying to arrange

741
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 2: to meet her, almost like the Shawshank Redemption where Read

742
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: and whatever his name was arranged to meet Mexico. He

743
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 2: told her how to escape, you know, be good, get

744
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: on duty working in the garden, which he knew was

745
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 2: near the front gate of the correct Department of Corrections.

746
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: I mean when he was on death row, he was

747
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,439
Speaker 2: in the scene. He's probably half a mile from where

748
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 2: she was, and he said, you know, you just walk off,

749
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 2: don't run, walk and I'll you know, get out and

750
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: meet you. I think that. I don't think he said where,

751
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 2: but I'll find you. And of course she did escape,

752
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: and she was gone for years and he never made

753
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 2: it out. He had always gotten away with or gotten

754
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: out of whatever he had done until he was executed.

755
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 1: Do you associate that with the fact that the people

756
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: he were targeting were people who were just sort of

757
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: like on the like I said, on the fringe, or

758
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: do you think that it was because he was smart

759
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 1: and he hid bodies and nobody was able to find them,

760
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: and sort of the tactic he used with, you know,

761
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: the inmate that he blew up.

762
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean he would befriend like the inmate or

763
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: not give I mean, I think people some of the

764
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: people were nervous around him after they'd seen him kill

765
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: somebody else. But most of them were on the fringe

766
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: of society. They were former convicts or runaways or thieves themselves.

767
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 2: They were people that lived on the fringe of society

768
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: and had no family to go back to or no

769
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: nobody that would miss them. I mean, it's amazing how

770
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 2: many of these people were not missed after we'd killed

771
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:51,680
Speaker 2: him and buried him in the swamp. You know, you

772
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 2: see these shows or stories about all the missing people

773
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 2: in our society, nobody knows where they are, what happened

774
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 2: to them. I mean, it was just as bad back

775
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 2: in the seventies. Maybe it's worse now because the number

776
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: of people. But these are folks that nobody was really

777
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: looking for. Now, there was the girl he killed that

778
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: he told the friends and family gone to Charleston. Her

779
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: father was intent on finding her. But that's the only

780
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 2: one I can remember that really. Maybe one of the

781
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 2: other men, the mother was but nobody really bird dogged

782
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 2: him or asked him hard questions except this mother. So again,

783
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: they were on the fringe of society. And I mean,

784
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,240
Speaker 2: if they're hanging around with pee Wee Gaskins, good golly.

785
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: I mean, it speaks volumes about their judgment, if nothing else.

786
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: We haven't talked at all about Donnie, his son. Do

787
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: you think that Donnie would have followed through on kidnapping

788
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: your daughter?

789
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: He says not. He says, well, yeah, I mean, he

790
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: says in his statement he wasn't intending to do it.

791
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 2: Of course, he did approach somebody to help him. He's

792
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,319
Speaker 2: got to be in his early sixties now, I mean,

793
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 2: I'm sure he's out there somewhere I don't particularly want

794
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: to go talk to him, but he wanted to help

795
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 2: his father and was willing to at least talk about it.

796
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: But I'm not sure he would have gone through with

797
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,239
Speaker 2: it had the other boy had not turned them in.

798
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,759
Speaker 2: I'd like to think that if I didn't think that,

799
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 2: I'd be a little concerned about going to sleep at night.

800
00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to ask this, but I'm curious

801
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 1: about what your daughter, who, of course now as an adult,

802
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: what does she think about all of this. I mean,

803
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: that must have been terrifying for her. Not only that,

804
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 1: but that is the clear illustration of the danger that you,

805
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: as a prosecutor or frankly as a defense attorney, could

806
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,520
Speaker 1: be in just for doing your job.

807
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 2: Well, if you look when you see the book, when

808
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: you get a copy of the book, you'll see it's

809
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 2: dedicated to Kate, my daughter, because she was the one

810
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 2: at risk, not me. I mean, I put my four

811
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: year old daughter unknowingly at risk, and it's one of

812
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: the reasons I quit prosecuting ever again. I mean I

813
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 2: did by stint as DA and tried to move on

814
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: to another office. But as long as there are people

815
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 2: like Guessings out there, prosecutor's family's going to be at risk.

816
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: And you know, I admire many many of the prosecutors

817
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 2: I worked with and against. There are people that have

818
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 2: a tough job, and the honorable ones are people that

819
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to worry about where their kids are, but

820
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 2: they do.

821
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: Now, I know you know this experience now, and you

822
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:17,760
Speaker 1: know you and your buddy, who is Gaskin's defense attorney,

823
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: ended up starting your firm together. What is your experience

824
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 1: switching from being a district attorney prosecutor over to being

825
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 1: a defense attorney as far as struggling with I am

826
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,760
Speaker 1: sure you have defended guilty people.

827
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 2: Look, I'm a lawyer, and some people, especially turning the

828
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 2: murder trial, get some really hateful emails from people. How

829
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: can you represent that guy? I'm an attorney. I'm a lawyer.

830
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 2: I took an oath and I take that. Oh seriously,

831
00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:52,080
Speaker 2: when you're prosecuting, you're there to see justice is done.

832
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 2: That's your duty. Don't hide evidence, don't intimidate witnesses into lying,

833
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 2: don't do any of the stuff that would get a

834
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,960
Speaker 2: result in a not based on the facts. And if,

835
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: by the way, if you don't believe that you can

836
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 2: convict somebody beyond a reasonable doubt, don't take him to trial.

837
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 2: Dismiss the case. That's your duty. The flip side of

838
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 2: that is, if you're representing somebody, you got a duty

839
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: to represent them. But if they've got a story, you

840
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,719
Speaker 2: don't help them make a better story. If they've told

841
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,000
Speaker 2: you that you know there's evidence somewhere, you've got a

842
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,399
Speaker 2: duty to tell the police where it is. I mean,

843
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,360
Speaker 2: if you play by the rules and the ethical rules

844
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: in every case, and I've done that for over fifty years,

845
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: you go to bed every night, put your head down

846
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: on the pie, when you go to sweep. You're not

847
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 2: worried about helping some guilty person to get off. Now,

848
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:39,920
Speaker 2: having said that, let me give you an example. Most

849
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: people don't understand this. Let's say your client comes in

850
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: it says I rob the store. That was me, So

851
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 2: what do you do with that? Well, if he wants

852
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 2: to testify a trial, now you can challenge on a

853
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 2: reasonable doubt basis witnesses, cross examinem You're welcome to question

854
00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: the relevance or the ad misiabil of evidence. But if

855
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: he takes the stand, you can't help him tell that

856
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 2: lie that he wants to tell so and you can

857
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:12,240
Speaker 2: tell with good lawyers, when the lawyer puts his client

858
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: on the stand and says, mister Smith, tells the jury

859
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,240
Speaker 2: your story, sits down and lets him tell a story.

860
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 2: Never ask the question to help him tell a story.

861
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 2: And when the guy comes off the stand in final argument,

862
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 2: you don't argue his story. You argue reasonable doubt. And

863
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 2: that's what an ethical lawyer does. That is playing by

864
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: the rules. And that's the rule of law. We talk

865
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,320
Speaker 2: about the rule of law. The system works if people

866
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 2: follow the rule of law. And you know, within a

867
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,239
Speaker 2: year less than a year of leaving the swister's office,

868
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 2: the prosecutor's office and sroying going on and sroy and

869
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 2: I go into practice. I helped represent a guy in

870
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 2: a death penalty case who was only executed. So I mean,

871
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 2: it's just you do your job and you do it ethically.

872
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,880
Speaker 2: You don't make stuff up, but you don't on either side.

873
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 2: If you do that, it's not about winning. It's about

874
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,959
Speaker 2: doing your job and doing your job in an ethical way.

875
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,480
Speaker 2: You know, I primarily practice civil law. Now I do

876
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 2: some criminal work, obviously murder all, but it's primarily civil

877
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 2: where it's just about money, and still you've got to

878
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 2: play by the rule. And if you do that, there's

879
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 2: a verdict. The word verdicto means to speak the truth.

880
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: You want a verdict that speaks the truth. Now, it

881
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 2: also may be that in a criminal case, the state

882
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: has the duty to prove the case, and if they

883
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: don't prove it, they're acquitted. I've had that. I had

884
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: many cases where I've represented people didn't tell me they

885
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,239
Speaker 2: were guilty, but based on everything I saw, I thought

886
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:47,440
Speaker 2: they were guilty who didn't take the stand that were

887
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 2: acquitted because the state didn't prove the case beyond a

888
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 2: reasonable doubt. And that's the system. And you know folks

889
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,879
Speaker 2: don't want bad guys to get away with stuff. Well

890
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 2: what that does when you start fucking you undermine the

891
00:47:02,520 --> 00:47:16,480
Speaker 2: judicial system, which undermines our democracy.

892
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

893
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners All Bow, The

894
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,319
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895
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Speaker 1: Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

896
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Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

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Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

898
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Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

899
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: is Alexis Mrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

900
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

901
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen

902
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,880
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904
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Speaker 1: More and if you know of a historical crime that

905
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Speaker 1: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

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Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmore wicked dot com. We'll

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Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

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Speaker 1: Words