Speaker 1: Now from our nation's capital. This is Bloomberg's sound on
Speaker 1: The one thing that we all know is Donald Trump
Speaker 1: has more classified information in his head than he does
Speaker 1: in his desk. He would think there would be an
Speaker 1: adult in the Republican room that would say, just calm down,
Speaker 1: see what the facts are. Heck, maybe it was Aliens.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Sound on Politics, Policy and Perspective from DC's Top Names.
Speaker 1: What I'm interested in is the amount of money that
Speaker 1: Donald Trump himself is raising. Off of the fact that
Speaker 1: it overshadows all the news is a negative for the
Speaker 1: Biden campaign. Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: The search warrants has been unsealed. Welcome to the fastest
Speaker 1: hour in politics, as we throw out the script on
Speaker 1: a breaking news Friday. We have learned a lot about
Speaker 1: what the FBI was looking for at Mara a Lago
Speaker 1: and what it seased, and we've assembled some of the
Speaker 1: smartest minds in law and politics to help us make
Speaker 1: sense of it. All. Will be joined this hour by
Speaker 1: Brad Moss, partner at Mark's Aide, specialist in national security
Speaker 1: and security clearances, by Michael Zelden, former federal prosecutor and
Speaker 1: later Joel Rubin, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State in
Speaker 1: the Obama administration. A specialists as well on high level
Speaker 1: security clearances as a deputy assistant Secretary of State, will
Speaker 1: have much more of their expertise coming up along with
Speaker 1: our panel. The signature panel is in place with Rick
Speaker 1: Davis and Jennie Chanzano, Bloomberg Politics contributors. We have a
Speaker 1: lot to share with you. As we turned to the
Speaker 1: big breaker here, a lot of folks thought they'd be
Speaker 1: talking about the Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to
Speaker 1: get a vote at some point. We're told I spent
Speaker 1: about six hours in the house waiting for that to
Speaker 1: happen today, but I needed to come talk to you
Speaker 1: about the news that took over the headlines. And so
Speaker 1: here we are Bloomberg Bureau in Washington, d C. With
Speaker 1: the headline d o J cited Espionage Act in Trump warrant.
Speaker 1: FBI found secret files that already is a lot remembering
Speaker 1: this search happened Monday. Heads exploded Monday night into Tuesday,
Speaker 1: and we have been waiting ever since to find out
Speaker 1: what was inside the warrant, remembering as well, we heard
Speaker 1: nothing from the Department of Justice until yesterday when Merrick
Speaker 1: Garland spoke to the media. The only person who really
Speaker 1: could have told us what was in that warrant otherwise
Speaker 1: was the man who tipped us off about the search
Speaker 1: to begin with, Donald Trump. And what a lot of
Speaker 1: messaging from him today. So the list of information ceased,
Speaker 1: as I read on the terminal includes documents labeled with
Speaker 1: various classified T S, s c I documents. You're gonna
Speaker 1: hear that a lot that refers to top secret and
Speaker 1: sensitive compartment and information. This is Washington speak, a government
Speaker 1: label from material gathered through sensitive intelligence sources, methods or
Speaker 1: analytical processes. Now, before this came out out, we're going
Speaker 1: to balance the legal and political sides of this for
Speaker 1: the for the balance of the hour, Republican leadership in
Speaker 1: the House held a briefing. They're here to vote on
Speaker 1: the Inflation Act today and wouldn't have any of this.
Speaker 1: An incredible pre bottled, if you will, to the warrant
Speaker 1: being unsealed at least defanic of course, a member of
Speaker 1: the Republican House leadership from New York. President Donald Trump
Speaker 1: is Joe Biden's most likeliest political opponent in and this
Speaker 1: is less than one hundred days from critical midterm elections.
Speaker 1: The FBI rate of President Trump is a complete abuse
Speaker 1: and overreach of its authority. And as the American people know, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: this is the same agency leadership that protected Hillary Clinton,
Speaker 1: James Comey and continues to protect Hunter Biden. We're hearing
Speaker 1: a lot about Hillary Clinton. Of course, James Comey, well,
Speaker 1: he ran, he ran the agency. Mark Waynemullin, Republican from Oklahoma,
Speaker 1: also Republican House member hit in the drama again on
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton, point out the double standard here too. You know,
Speaker 1: we we we saw that the this media frenzy about
Speaker 1: supposedly classified information. Where was the same media frenzy when
Speaker 1: there are thirty three thousand classified emails on a server
Speaker 1: in a bathroom with here Lee Clinton. Why didn't they
Speaker 1: raid that bathroom? Why they work with her to find
Speaker 1: out a time, a date, and what documents they could
Speaker 1: and couldn't see. Makes you start wondering did any of
Speaker 1: them know what was in the warrant? Representative Chris Stewart,
Speaker 1: Republican from Utah was certainly reaching. Look what's happened over
Speaker 1: the last five years, and look at the premise of
Speaker 1: most of your questions. Was it nuclear? Was it heck,
Speaker 1: maybe it was aliens. That's the point. We don't know.
Speaker 1: We're asking them to tell us, and until they tell us,
Speaker 1: then we're gonna have questions like this and the presumption
Speaker 1: is going to be that it is political. Turns out
Speaker 1: not aliens included them. It's your reals. Removed from Trump's home.
Speaker 1: Eleven sets of documents, not eleven documents. Eleven sets of
Speaker 1: documents labeled classified, confidential, secret, and top secret, twenty boxes
Speaker 1: in total. Other items included on the list a handwritten
Speaker 1: note the executive clemency grant for Roger Stone, some photographs
Speaker 1: and information. This one releases what information about the president
Speaker 1: of France? It's got stuff on mcron. The items were
Speaker 1: seized during the execution of a search warrant signed by
Speaker 1: a Florida judge. And what a life the judge must
Speaker 1: be having. Let's start with our first voice of authority today,
Speaker 1: Brad Moss, as I mentioned, partner at Mark Said, specializes
Speaker 1: in litigation on matters relating to national security, security clearance law,
Speaker 1: the Freedom of Information Acts, the Privacy Act. Clerked for
Speaker 1: the National Security Archive. Brad, we couldn't think of a
Speaker 1: more perfect person to start off with here, having heard
Speaker 1: so much confusion around fund all of this, and to
Speaker 1: see the Espionage Act cited here, did this just get
Speaker 1: a lot more severe for Donald Trump. Yeah, so this
Speaker 1: is pretty interesting. So just you know, off the bat,
Speaker 1: the Espionage Act is the worst titled law around. The
Speaker 1: majority of the crimes listed in the Espionage Act have
Speaker 1: nothing to do with spines. Yeah, it's about unlawful um
Speaker 1: stamp storage, handling, and transmission of information related to national
Speaker 1: defenses from World War One. UM. But the fact that
Speaker 1: that's being cited is the provisions in there that are
Speaker 1: being we're going to be relied upon our felonies which
Speaker 1: potentially huge criminal sentencing h implications if convicted. That's bad
Speaker 1: for the president, for the former president. That is they
Speaker 1: have found in these documents. We've seen it in the
Speaker 1: inventory list, all these different sets of classified properly marked,
Speaker 1: properly classified records up to and including as you mentioned
Speaker 1: t S SCI which is top secret, the highest level
Speaker 1: of classification and sensitive compartment and information which means they
Speaker 1: only slept groups of people even normally have access to it.
Speaker 1: Those are the most sensitive secrets up to an up
Speaker 1: with UH special access programs. Very few people ever see those.
Speaker 1: There's no reason the president should have been holding onto
Speaker 1: that at mar Lago. He sent a series of messages today,
Speaker 1: some of them pointing, while one of them pointing to
Speaker 1: Barack Obama. Strangely, that was knocked down very quickly by
Speaker 1: the National Archives. Then there was another one that came
Speaker 1: in midday. Here. Number one, Donald Trump writes, it was
Speaker 1: all declassified, effectively confirming everything that he had been questioning.
Speaker 1: Number two, they didn't need to seize anything they could
Speaker 1: have had at any time they wanted, without playing politics
Speaker 1: and breaking into marra Lago. I'm already confused. Number one,
Speaker 1: the Justice Department does not think they were declassified, right.
Speaker 1: And number two, they apparently felt a need to seize
Speaker 1: these secret documents because they had asked repeatedly for them
Speaker 1: to be handed over. Am I am I getting closer
Speaker 1: to understanding this. Yes, correct, So let's be clear. All
Speaker 1: of this first was supposed to have been handled over
Speaker 1: eighteen months ago. It was never supposed to have gone
Speaker 1: walking with him down Florida. It's it took eighteen months
Speaker 1: just to get these things back. It took twelve months
Speaker 1: in February of this year for him the first ship
Speaker 1: back fifteen boxes of records, which included all manner of
Speaker 1: class fight information and probably marked class by documents. In June,
Speaker 1: FBI agents went out there with a subpoena and they
Speaker 1: found more documents and they were given in. He allowed
Speaker 1: to inspect the area, the basement where these things were sitting.
Speaker 1: And only then two months later, after negotiations were breaking down,
Speaker 1: did they finally say enough is enough. We're going in
Speaker 1: to get these records. Nobody else would be allowed to
Speaker 1: sit there with sets upon sets of T, S, S
Speaker 1: c I documents sitting in their basement. They bent over
Speaker 1: backwards for him. But to the other point, this thing
Speaker 1: about declassifications, This will be their primary defense if there's
Speaker 1: an indictment that he, when he was president, declassified this stuff.
Speaker 1: And let's be clear, up until the moment Joe Biden
Speaker 1: took out took the office, Donald Trump had the authority,
Speaker 1: unfettered discretion to declassify anything he wanted, with the exception
Speaker 1: of anything covered by the Atomic Energy Act. He could
Speaker 1: have declassified these documents, but it requires more than a
Speaker 1: verbal order, and there's no indication he did. That's interesting
Speaker 1: because his lawyer has suggested that basically, if the President
Speaker 1: of the United States thinks it declassified, than it is.
Speaker 1: But there had to have been a formal process that
Speaker 1: was not gone through correct So he could have sat there,
Speaker 1: pointed at a set of boxes and said, I want
Speaker 1: those declassified, or I'm saying they're declassified. That's great. That
Speaker 1: doesn't do anything. You have to literally go document by document,
Speaker 1: Every single one of them has to be declassified. There's
Speaker 1: markings that have to be ex baxed out, the stamp
Speaker 1: that has to be put on it saying when it
Speaker 1: was declassified and by whom and under what authority. You
Speaker 1: have to go through that. Until you do, you cannot
Speaker 1: as a private citizen post presidency, hold onto them because
Speaker 1: they still have the markings on them. They're still supposed
Speaker 1: to be treated as classified. Is all of this on
Speaker 1: the president? We understand others boxed up these documents. They
Speaker 1: were stacked up in different places. I mean, is the
Speaker 1: chief of staff called out for this? Is the secretary?
Speaker 1: How does this work in terms of who gets final
Speaker 1: eyes on this stuff? How the heck did it end
Speaker 1: up in Florida with nobody knowing about it? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: in a normal competent administration, after the election, there would
Speaker 1: have been immediate negotiations between the White House staff, the
Speaker 1: White House Counsel's Office, any number of government staffers coordinating
Speaker 1: with the National Archives, and they would have transported documents
Speaker 1: into a secure, secure facility, sorted through it, figured out
Speaker 1: where everything needs to be stored, and started archiving in
Speaker 1: in anticipation of an eventual presidential library. That didn't happen
Speaker 1: with Donald Trump because he spent most of November and December,
Speaker 1: in early January trying to fight the loss in the election.
Speaker 1: They only started going through this stuff two weeks before
Speaker 1: he was set to leave, and they just had staff
Speaker 1: throw everything in boxes that was in the residence, that
Speaker 1: was all across the White House the boxes and put
Speaker 1: it on a truck and set it down to Florida.
Speaker 1: That's not how it's supposed to work. So these classified
Speaker 1: documents sent up in the same boxes as Roger Stone's
Speaker 1: clemency grants, and what is this? What do you make
Speaker 1: of this information about the president of France? So I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what that is. It doesn't sound like it's
Speaker 1: actually classified information about the president of France. It sounds
Speaker 1: like it was sitting in the same box with the
Speaker 1: Roger Stone information that could have been just about anything,
Speaker 1: but the fact that the inventory lift provides information on
Speaker 1: that and doesn't on any of the classified documents makes
Speaker 1: me think it's something totally unclassified. This is why we
Speaker 1: wanted to talk to him before we did anything else.
Speaker 1: Great conversation and insights, Brad Moss. Thank you for being
Speaker 1: of us on Bloomberg Sound On. How about that? That's
Speaker 1: more than you've heard anywhere else today, isn't it. I
Speaker 1: want to assemble the panel before we bring in Michael's
Speaker 1: Elden for the view of a former federal prosecutor. There's
Speaker 1: a lot of politics going on here. Rick Davis and
Speaker 1: Jeannie Chanzano are with us. Thank god Bloomberg Politics contributors.
Speaker 1: They make up our signature panel. Rick, this has been
Speaker 1: a heck of a day in Washington. You just heard
Speaker 1: Brad walk through this. Does this feel more potentially damning
Speaker 1: than it did yesterday? You know? I I think It's
Speaker 1: appears more damning, mostly because of Donald Trump's comments. If
Speaker 1: he had just stayed quiet through the course of all this,
Speaker 1: effectively confirming this, you mean confirming it and then denying it,
Speaker 1: and then denying his confirmations I mean the point you
Speaker 1: were making about all the different lines that he's putting
Speaker 1: out there on one day, Rick, you know, he claimed
Speaker 1: there was no classified information and he claimed he had
Speaker 1: already declassified. Well maybe that's not mutually exclusive, but um,
Speaker 1: I must say, I've never seen anybody deconstructive selves. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can tell why many Republicans are running for the
Speaker 1: hills from this guy today, because what do you defend?
Speaker 1: He's changing his opinion on it by the hour. A
Speaker 1: lot of them were not though, Rick, you heard some
Speaker 1: of the folks I played, at least de Fanic included who.
Speaker 1: I mean, gosh, it's pretty hard to find a Republican
Speaker 1: in the US House or anywhere in Washington right now
Speaker 1: who's calling out Donald Trump on this. No, nobody's calling
Speaker 1: him out. But this was the freak of the freak
Speaker 1: show today. I mean, Stefani gave it credibility by being there.
Speaker 1: But this was the group that has stand tall for
Speaker 1: Donald Trump all throughout and have been promoting every conspiracy
Speaker 1: theory known a man. So the fact that we're even
Speaker 1: reporting what they say is I think a stretch away.
Speaker 1: Genie Uh, Donald Trump, among his uh statements issue today,
Speaker 1: one of them was very short. President, he writes, President
Speaker 1: Barack Hussein Obama, he wrote the full name, kept thirty
Speaker 1: three million pages of documents, thirty three million, much of
Speaker 1: them classified. How many of them pertain to nuclear He asked?
Speaker 1: Where it is? Lots? Well, every reporter in Washington called
Speaker 1: the National Archives on that, and and of course, you
Speaker 1: know Obama World. They were quick to provide, uh evidence
Speaker 1: of that not being true. The National Archives scooped all
Speaker 1: of that up and keeps it safely here in its warehouse. Uh,
Speaker 1: we're going to hear about Hillary Clinton emails and I
Speaker 1: guess Obama documents until November. Oh we are. It is
Speaker 1: a Donald Trump back to deflection blaming other people. But
Speaker 1: you know, as I look through the documents that were
Speaker 1: released today, what is so stunning to me in terms
Speaker 1: of the laws that the d o J are saying
Speaker 1: we're potentially violated by possession of this material is two
Speaker 1: oh seven one. And this is why at least Stefanik
Speaker 1: is talking about less than ninety days to the election.
Speaker 1: Penalties for that if you were found to be guilty
Speaker 1: of it include you are not unable to hold any
Speaker 1: office in the United States. Now, scholars differ in terms
Speaker 1: of whether that applies to the president, because qualifications for
Speaker 1: the president in the Constitution are pretty clear. But that
Speaker 1: to me is a major question here because they are
Speaker 1: saying two oh seven one and that is a potential
Speaker 1: penalty for violation of that And that stood out to
Speaker 1: me right away as that's listed at the top of
Speaker 1: this unsealed warrant. We are holding the warrant here in studio.
Speaker 1: Our panel each has a copy as well, dated August eleven.
Speaker 1: How about that, um, United States District Court, Southern Districts
Speaker 1: of Florida, Rick, how long can that party line continue?
Speaker 1: You just you just keep either quiet or supporting Donald
Speaker 1: Trump and still Election day. Yeah, I think I think
Speaker 1: that there will be a noticeable silence by most Republican
Speaker 1: office holders, you know, out of Washington. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: gonna head home for recess. They're gonna focus on campaigning
Speaker 1: and and and they're gonna hope this dies to on
Speaker 1: because this does not help turn out the vote for Republicans,
Speaker 1: you know, in the midterm elections. So, uh, talk about
Speaker 1: a distraction. I mean we've talked in the past about
Speaker 1: how Donald Trump has a way of showing up. Is
Speaker 1: the major issue right before an election that has nothing
Speaker 1: to do with the campaign that anybody's waging. And here
Speaker 1: we go again. Uh. Whether or not he means to
Speaker 1: do it, he has a knack of doing it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: There will not be one single commercial favorable to Republicans
Speaker 1: about the Donald Trump raid at mar Lago. So, um,
Speaker 1: you know, here he goes again. And uh. And so
Speaker 1: I think that, uh, there will be responsible Republicans who
Speaker 1: speak out and say, hey, we've got to get to
Speaker 1: the bottom of this, this is bad for the country
Speaker 1: and bad for our party. But but I suspect those
Speaker 1: will be fueling far between because the head and sand
Speaker 1: strategy has been what most Republicans have done. Has the
Speaker 1: White House been smart to keep quiet on this genie?
Speaker 1: They've been pretty buttoned up this week. Yeah, they have
Speaker 1: been very smart. You know, when your opponent is getting
Speaker 1: himself or herself in hot water, just keep quiet about it,
Speaker 1: don't get involved. They've been trying to do that. One
Speaker 1: problem for the White House is, of course, what is
Speaker 1: happening on Capitol Hill that you've been watching all day,
Speaker 1: which is an enormous success for them in terms of
Speaker 1: the potential passage soon of the Reconciliation Act, the Inflation
Speaker 1: Act Reduction Act, and you know how many people have
Speaker 1: been focused on that. I noticed we had Steenny Hoyer
Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer out on the air waves today and every
Speaker 1: question they were asked had to do with Donald Trump first,
Speaker 1: and then at the end, Oh, yeah, you're passing this.
Speaker 1: That's great, good luck and move on. That's a problem
Speaker 1: for Democrats. So Donald Trump, to Rick's point, once again,
Speaker 1: stealing the thunder of almost everybody, maybe to the demise
Speaker 1: of some Republicans, but the White House has got to
Speaker 1: be able to get on message about this. I Rara, though,
Speaker 1: wonder maybe she does mean it. How do you how
Speaker 1: does that happen when you're not even planning it, Rick
Speaker 1: and Janie or with us for the hour, of course,
Speaker 1: we wanted to just check in with them very quickly
Speaker 1: before we now connect with Michael Zelden, former federal prosecutor,
Speaker 1: former special counsel to Robert Mueller while at the Department
Speaker 1: of Justice. Michael, it's great to have you back. We
Speaker 1: last spoke when we didn't know a lot about this,
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you I keep hearing about the Mueller
Speaker 1: probe by a lot of mainly Republican lawmakers who are saying, hey,
Speaker 1: come on, Democrats have been chasing this guy, Russia, Russia,
Speaker 1: Russia collusion, all this business. They've never gotten anything to stick.
Speaker 1: How come this is going to be different? Does this
Speaker 1: feel very different to you? It really depends on the
Speaker 1: will of the Justice Department. Remember in the Mueller years
Speaker 1: we had the Bar Justice Department. Then that was a
Speaker 1: very different approach to law enforcement than the Garland Justice Department.
Speaker 1: I think that had Garland been Attorney General during the
Speaker 1: Mueller investigation, he may well have considered bringing obstruction charges
Speaker 1: with Mueller, which Mueller outlined in Volume one of his report.
Speaker 1: But that was then and this is now, and we'll
Speaker 1: just have to see how America views the seriousness of
Speaker 1: this and the prosecute to prosecutorial worthiness of it. They
Speaker 1: may be content to just get these documents back, secure them,
Speaker 1: make sure the national security hasn't been compromised, and be
Speaker 1: done with this. But if they feel that he has
Speaker 1: maliciously or with reckless disregard concealed or mutilated or destroyed documents,
Speaker 1: they may feel an obligation to prosecute. So we're dealing
Speaker 1: with three specific federal criminal laws and it's important that
Speaker 1: we try to break this down for our listeners, which
Speaker 1: is why it's great to have you help us do it. Uh.
Speaker 1: The first here part of the Espionage Act, as as
Speaker 1: folks have been hearing us, It makes it a crime
Speaker 1: to remove or misuse information related to national defense. Another
Speaker 1: makes it a crime to hide, damage, or destroy government records.
Speaker 1: And a third makes it a crime to falsify, destroy,
Speaker 1: or cover up records to obstruct or interfere with a
Speaker 1: federal investigation. Do these three seem obvious? Is there a
Speaker 1: lot of overlap with with the three? What's your reaction
Speaker 1: to these being cited? Well, they all deal in some
Speaker 1: way or another with concealment of documents or failure to
Speaker 1: return them. The statute concealment removal of documents without authority
Speaker 1: the three year felony. Then seven three the next statute
Speaker 1: side it is whoever has possession of a national defense
Speaker 1: document and through gross negligence, permits it to be removed, or,
Speaker 1: knowing that it's been removed, fails to report it. That's
Speaker 1: a ten year felony, and then fifteen nineteen whoever knowingly conceals, destroys,
Speaker 1: cover ups, etcetera. With the intent to obstruct or impede
Speaker 1: an investigation is a twenty year felony. So you see
Speaker 1: the range of possibilities here, and what is appropriate, if any,
Speaker 1: will be determined by the Attorney General and his team
Speaker 1: as they look through these documents one by one. At
Speaker 1: the gross level. You can't say which of these applies
Speaker 1: most applicably. But um, but that's the point, right, you
Speaker 1: throw all three up there, and then you know that
Speaker 1: can be figured out later. Exactly do the penalties for
Speaker 1: any of these as as we have heard many Democrats suggest,
Speaker 1: disqualify Donald Trump from serving in high office. Again, Well,
Speaker 1: nineteen um implies that a federal investigation, right and and um.
Speaker 1: One of them, specifically two oh seven one says if
Speaker 1: you've been if you've been convicted of this statute, having
Speaker 1: willfully and unlawfully obstructed, removed, concealed, et cetera, you shall
Speaker 1: be disqualified from holding any office under the United States.
Speaker 1: So one of them carries this disqualification. But many constitutional
Speaker 1: scholars who I have spoken to once I had a
Speaker 1: sense that this might be a statute. Yeah at play
Speaker 1: have said, you know, I'm not so sure that that's constitutional.
Speaker 1: I'm not so sure that Congress has the authority to
Speaker 1: disqualify someone from holding office by merely concealing a removing
Speaker 1: a document, so that would be a big constitutional test.
Speaker 1: It's yet another one. We need another one, Michael, we
Speaker 1: need a constitutional test in this kind of I haven't
Speaker 1: had one in August yet, have we exactly? Um, this
Speaker 1: is very helpful for us to understand here. What then,
Speaker 1: since we just spent the last four days wondering what
Speaker 1: was in there, just everyone talking without knowing what they're
Speaker 1: talking about. Michael's elden, what's the next most important thing
Speaker 1: for us to learn what's in the documents and whether
Speaker 1: or not the just moment will release them, release the
Speaker 1: contents of that outside of illegal filing. Remember, Merrick Garland
Speaker 1: has been very clear that he only speaks through his
Speaker 1: court filings, so short of leaks, we're not going to
Speaker 1: hear officially from the Justice moment. Oh, by the way,
Speaker 1: in box number six, we found a document which says
Speaker 1: something that's not going to happen. So the question will
Speaker 1: be will Merrick Garland file something that we get to
Speaker 1: see or will there be leaks of the contents and
Speaker 1: we'll get a hint of what's going on. So everything
Speaker 1: now depends on what we can learn about what's inside
Speaker 1: of these twenty boxes of documents that were just carded
Speaker 1: off and the boxes that came before that, I mean
Speaker 1: thirty five boxes documents. When you think of a boxer
Speaker 1: a banker's box up documents, it's sort of a file
Speaker 1: cabinets draw worth of materials. So they're like thirty five
Speaker 1: filing cabinet drawers. Uh, that that were inappropriately taken by
Speaker 1: the President's hard to say that that was by accidents
Speaker 1: or inadvertence. I clearly need a bigger garage. I don't
Speaker 1: know what I would do with that. Man. You know
Speaker 1: what we're gonna hear, though. We're gonna hear is what
Speaker 1: about is Um? What about Okama? What about that? We're
Speaker 1: already here in exactly we'll hear that, and then we'll
Speaker 1: also hear the defense that well Trump privately and secretly
Speaker 1: declassified these things. So there's much ado about nothing. Michael Zelvin,
Speaker 1: you've been a great help to us this week. Thank
Speaker 1: you for the insights. Today A lot more straight ahead.
Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg broadcasting live from our nation's capital, Bloomberg
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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg Sound On with Joe Matthew with breaking news
Speaker 1: from Capitol Hill, because we need more. We saw it
Speaker 1: common Actually they voted late in the House. Now does
Speaker 1: have the votes to pass Democrats climate and tax bill.
Speaker 1: There it goes. The vote on this package ongoing, but
Speaker 1: Democrats have the numbers that means build back better, soft Infrastructure,
Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act, whatever you want to call it, is
Speaker 1: on its way to Joe Biden. We turned back to
Speaker 1: what we learned today from the unsealing of the search warrant,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot to talk about here in regard
Speaker 1: to not just top secret information but nuclear documents. What
Speaker 1: does that mean? As we turned back to the matter
Speaker 1: at hand, there's so much in this docket that we're
Speaker 1: talking about here, Espionage Act, secret files that the FBI
Speaker 1: has compiled T S s c I documents and then
Speaker 1: this reference to nuclear documents, which could pertain to a
Speaker 1: lot of things. But of course we heard the from
Speaker 1: the other side of the aisle that is not taken
Speaker 1: part in any of this business with the FBI rate
Speaker 1: and in many cases defending Donald Trump. We've been through
Speaker 1: that this hour. Mike Turner, Republican from Ohio, on the
Speaker 1: idea of classified nuclear documents earlier today in the House,
Speaker 1: I can tell you that there are a number of
Speaker 1: things that that are classified that fall under the umbrella
Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons, but that are not necessarily things that
Speaker 1: are truly classified. Um. And many of them you can
Speaker 1: find on your own phone as we as we stand here,
Speaker 1: and if they fall within that category, they're not an
Speaker 1: imminent national security threat that would rise to the level
Speaker 1: of you have to raid Donald Trump's home and spend
Speaker 1: nine hours there. I did check my phone, and I
Speaker 1: didn't find any, um. But I'm not sure exactly what
Speaker 1: he was referring to. To be perfectly honest with you,
Speaker 1: it's just a fascinating narrative going on in Washington. Nothing
Speaker 1: agrees here again. Joel Rubin, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of
Speaker 1: State of the Obama administration specialist on Iran and Russia,
Speaker 1: held high level security clearances as a Deputy Assistant Secretary
Speaker 1: of State, served to the Bush administration for a time
Speaker 1: as well, with us now on the fastest hour in politics, Jowel,
Speaker 1: There's a lot to talk about here, but specifically when
Speaker 1: it comes to nuclear what do you how do you
Speaker 1: react to Congressman Turner on that that that a lot
Speaker 1: of essentially classified documents aren't really all that classified. Joe,
Speaker 1: I'm a gast. Mike Turner is a congressman who for
Speaker 1: years has been known as a quote nuclear hawk, that
Speaker 1: someone who has been a major advocate for America's nuclear infrastructure,
Speaker 1: for unlimited spending to ensure that we have a safe arsenal,
Speaker 1: one that's effective, for being tough on foreign adversaries who
Speaker 1: have or want to possess nuclear weapons. Russia and Iran
Speaker 1: come to mind. For him to gaslight in this manner
Speaker 1: to talk down the severity of the nuclear information that
Speaker 1: may very well have been loose and Donald Trump's home
Speaker 1: is just shocking and deeply pointing and for all of
Speaker 1: us who serve the national security uh quite frankly, uh dizzying.
Speaker 1: It doesn't make sense, Okay, But from a factual standpoint,
Speaker 1: are there grades of classification when it comes to nuclear documents?
Speaker 1: Can you explain that? You bet? I mean, and the
Speaker 1: grades were on the boxes that we're taken out of
Speaker 1: Mara Lago. UH. There are there are Q level clearances,
Speaker 1: it's known, which is the highest. That's the nuclear of
Speaker 1: a certain level of expertise. There's Top secret U s
Speaker 1: c I, which is sensitive compartmentalized information, which is UH
Speaker 1: for a limited amount of users. We call them consumers
Speaker 1: of that information, policymakers, and then it goes down to
Speaker 1: top secret and then down the secret UH. And so
Speaker 1: nuclear couldn't compass variety of things from plans about the
Speaker 1: actual infrastructure, where targets are, where infrastructure is located, to
Speaker 1: information about our adversaries. It runs the gamut. We do
Speaker 1: not know what's in those boxes. And the mere concept
Speaker 1: that we're even thinking about it is a complete threat
Speaker 1: to our allies who are going to be worried about
Speaker 1: what has been exposed, and it undermines confidence in our
Speaker 1: nucle air infrastructure. So back away from this because we're
Speaker 1: obsessed with specifics today. We were so hungry from them
Speaker 1: for them. But a lot of folks are asking, well,
Speaker 1: what in the world was Donald Trump doing with thirty
Speaker 1: five boxes down in maral Ago? To begin with, explain
Speaker 1: why that's a problem to begin with, because let's say
Speaker 1: the records, the Presidential Records Act and some of the stuff. Okay, fine,
Speaker 1: you know what, people need to calm down. This guy
Speaker 1: was the president as as we heard from UH, I
Speaker 1: believe it was actually Congressman Turner. Today he's got more
Speaker 1: classified information in his head than he ever had in
Speaker 1: a document. What could happen to this type of material
Speaker 1: being left relatively insecure as we know before the FBI
Speaker 1: asked that additional lock was put on the door. What
Speaker 1: what type of threat does that present if it's actually
Speaker 1: living with a former president? Yeah, you know, you just
Speaker 1: don't know. And that's why any of us, all of
Speaker 1: us who received security currences, we were trained from day
Speaker 1: one in a training about how to make sure you
Speaker 1: take care of your secure classified material. Uh. The number
Speaker 1: one line was, you can't take it home with you.
Speaker 1: You just don't take this stuff out of the secure facility.
Speaker 1: You leave it there, You leave it in the locker,
Speaker 1: you leave it in the room. It never leaves. It
Speaker 1: is unknown and for over a year plus it's sitting
Speaker 1: in mar Lago aDNA thieves. Who knows who's running around
Speaker 1: that place and who knows what foreign adversaries are buying
Speaker 1: tickets to go hang out with the president and meandering
Speaker 1: through the hallways. Label, so we don't know. That's getting
Speaker 1: a little closer to a legitimate threat. Direct threat. You
Speaker 1: don't bring secure classified material home to an insecure location ever,
Speaker 1: and the president United States is not exempt from that either.
Speaker 1: This president playing fast and loose with the nations secrets
Speaker 1: puts us all over. We've talked about this, the fact
Speaker 1: apparently that that Donald Trump didn't actually box up all
Speaker 1: this stuff. He had stuff everywhere. Some of these documents
Speaker 1: were stacked up. Uh, some of them had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with each other. Some of them had been torn
Speaker 1: up apparently, and so that you know, they scooped up
Speaker 1: everything in the oval, they shipped it all down to
Speaker 1: Marrow Lago. Uh does that suggest intent maybe on behalf
Speaker 1: of someone else? Does the chief of staff take the
Speaker 1: fall for that is? Did Donald Trump even know it
Speaker 1: was in those boxes? So much for the buck stops
Speaker 1: here right, um, because those days are long gone. Uh,
Speaker 1: it's his house, it's his property. He was warned early
Speaker 1: on after he left office that he had boxes and
Speaker 1: materials and need to be returned to the government. He
Speaker 1: refused to turn over boxes for months. It's the repeated request, right,
Speaker 1: That's what makes this so Uh. He was subpoena in
Speaker 1: June and they refused to comply. This was not a raid.
Speaker 1: This was an enforcement of a subpoena that the target
Speaker 1: of the subpoena refused to respond to. He knew it
Speaker 1: clear as day, Joel Ruben. Great to have you with us,
Speaker 1: former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State with us on Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Sound On. These are the kind of voices you hear
Speaker 1: on this program that makes sense of what in the
Speaker 1: world is going on without reaching to the right or
Speaker 1: the left. We just reached for the expertise. We're gonna
Speaker 1: reassemble the panel next. Rick and Jeanie coming back. I'm
Speaker 1: Joe Matthew and Washington. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg
Speaker 1: sond On with Joe Matthew on Bloomberg Radio. Just another
Speaker 1: case of remarkable timing on a Friday in the summer
Speaker 1: in Washington. Not the timing Joe Biden, I'm assuming was
Speaker 1: hoping for or any member of the Democratic leadership, even
Speaker 1: though they don't seem to be rooting for Donald Trump today.
Speaker 1: But you know this is the big vote in the
Speaker 1: US House. This is what guys like me were sent
Speaker 1: to cover in Washington today, the Inflation Reduction Act. Look,
Speaker 1: this was a big deal. It was a big deal
Speaker 1: a week ago when the Senate passed. It was a
Speaker 1: big deal a year ago when it failed. Back then
Speaker 1: it was called build back Better. This just happened a
Speaker 1: moment ago. On this boat. The a's are two hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty. The names are two hundred and seven. The
Speaker 1: realized solution, the motion is adopted. Nancy Pelosi and the
Speaker 1: Speaker's roster, Democrats in the chamber standing and applauding. Injection
Speaker 1: emotion to we consider is laid upon the table, not
Speaker 1: a soul on the other side of the room. But
Speaker 1: that's done. Let's going to the president now. Breaking news,
Speaker 1: and you know when news breaks, we need to let
Speaker 1: you know about it. To the point of our panel earlier, though,
Speaker 1: do you think anybody's gonna hear about this if they
Speaker 1: don't listen to sound on Just dial around and look
Speaker 1: with the other news agencies are talking about. It's Trump,
Speaker 1: it's mar Lagos, the FBI. Let's bringing our panel, Rick Davis,
Speaker 1: Jennie Chanzano, Bloomberg politics contributors. Uh, we hit this already, Uh, Jeannie,
Speaker 1: not not good timing for Joe Biden. But maybe in
Speaker 1: the end this ends up being like a golden day
Speaker 1: for him. Was this the end of his potential uh
Speaker 1: campaign against Donald Frump? Yeah? As Biden would say, this
Speaker 1: is a big, big deal. He'd use another choice term,
Speaker 1: he would, and I won't use it, but it is
Speaker 1: an enormous Dealil buttons for that's just just block me.
Speaker 1: But you know, this gives the Democrats the opportunity to
Speaker 1: go back home. But you know, eighty eight days essentially
Speaker 1: before the mid term and say we delivered on the
Speaker 1: major campaign promise. And really, as as you know, I've been,
Speaker 1: you know, completely pessimistic about their ability to do this
Speaker 1: against enormous odds with a fifty fifty Senate, And these
Speaker 1: are really important developments. To slash greenhouse gas emissions by
Speaker 1: to extend tax credits. You know, we're talking about clean energy,
Speaker 1: We're talking about minimum corporate taxes, We're talking about enormous
Speaker 1: changes to health care. You know, the list goes on
Speaker 1: and on. Big priorities for Americans across the board, and
Speaker 1: the White House has shown and Congress importantly have shown
Speaker 1: they can deliver. And so yes, it's been drowned out
Speaker 1: by Trump today, but there's three months or so that
Speaker 1: they have now to go talk about it. And will
Speaker 1: it change what happens in Congress in terms of the
Speaker 1: makeup for the next term. Who knows. But these are
Speaker 1: big deals and it's going to make the losses they
Speaker 1: feel in the fall less than they may have been.
Speaker 1: You know, one of the big stories in the last
Speaker 1: twenty four hours, Rick and you guys talked about this,
Speaker 1: I know yesterday is the idea that Joe Biden they're
Speaker 1: moving ahead with a campaign. Whether he announces as another matter,
Speaker 1: but they are taking the sort of going through the
Speaker 1: motions of making this happen. Does this actually potentially backfire
Speaker 1: on Joe Biden? If if if this, you know, this
Speaker 1: gets Old Trump at the knees here, it doesn't He's
Speaker 1: not able to run again. Did that just make it
Speaker 1: much more difficult for Joe Biden to be reelected? Um,
Speaker 1: you know, that's a good question. I think that Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, there's it's a binary question as to whether
Speaker 1: Biden runs and if he does run, who he runs against.
Speaker 1: If he doesn't run, what does that mean for the
Speaker 1: field of Democrats and and I think that's really where
Speaker 1: people's heads are right now. I think that kind of
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going to happen on the
Speaker 1: Republican side, especially after the events of this week with
Speaker 1: the investigation ramping up on Donald Trump, not just the
Speaker 1: one that that resulted in the FBI go into mar Lago,
Speaker 1: but all the others that are actually piling up right now. Um,
Speaker 1: it's just too hard to tell. I mean this, I've
Speaker 1: never been in an environment where there's so many political
Speaker 1: unknowns about the future of the presidential cast of characters. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, arguably four months before that campaign starts. I
Speaker 1: mean usually you can handicap the whole thing by now,
Speaker 1: and in this case, you can't even move until you
Speaker 1: figure out who the top, Uh, what happens with Biden,
Speaker 1: what happens with Trump. Yeah, well, I'm gonna remind everybody
Speaker 1: that the first debate is set for June. We're gonna
Speaker 1: have a debate in June. We do not have a
Speaker 1: lot of time to figure this out. And look, unless
Speaker 1: something changes, and it feels like the earth may be
Speaker 1: changing under our feet in some ways, inflation is going
Speaker 1: to be the story right, it's not. This whole story
Speaker 1: about Donald Trump is fascinating. Larry Summer is talking about this,
Speaker 1: UH in a really interesting interview with Bloomberg, of course,
Speaker 1: dismayed the former Goldman Sachs guy dismayed that certain tax components,
Speaker 1: including carried interest, were taken out of this bill at
Speaker 1: the last minute. I think it's very sad how much
Speaker 1: UH special interest lobbyists we're able to stop things that
Speaker 1: are clearly in uh the public interest. Okay. I asked
Speaker 1: Jim McGovern about that today. I asked a number of
Speaker 1: Democratic lawmakers about it, because Larry Summers was supposed to
Speaker 1: be the reason why this was good. He said it
Speaker 1: would lower inflation. Jim mcgoverned, the congressman from Massachusetts chair
Speaker 1: of the Rules Committe, spent a lot of time arguing
Speaker 1: for this on the floor today, and he appeared on
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Live. Well, look, I would just I would also
Speaker 1: point out the Larry Sumbers is encouraging everybody to support
Speaker 1: this bill, as our economists all over the all over
Speaker 1: the country. Uh, Okay, this bill will help UH lower
Speaker 1: the deficit. This bill will lower the costs of prescripture
Speaker 1: drugs for senior citizens who are lower the cost of
Speaker 1: healthcare for millions of millions of American families. And in
Speaker 1: addition to that, it is the biggest investment to comple
Speaker 1: combat the climate crisis in our history ever. So this
Speaker 1: is a huge historic moment. Now the question becomes, how
Speaker 1: do you remind pe because nobody's talking about it today, Jeanie.
Speaker 1: There has been talk of a national tour, how about
Speaker 1: a whistle stop tour? But Joe Biden on a train
Speaker 1: and sent him off for a month. Is this the
Speaker 1: kind of thing? Remember that's what they said they wished
Speaker 1: they had done after Obamacare. That's right, and you know
Speaker 1: he should be out and about, you know, whistle stop tours,
Speaker 1: taking a bus however he wants to do it. Um,
Speaker 1: I'm not you know, we don't know how many Democrats
Speaker 1: are going to want him in some of these swing states,
Speaker 1: but he can go where he's wanted. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think you know there is a a as big
Speaker 1: of a deal as this is, and it certainly is.
Speaker 1: Larry Summers does have a point in terms of this
Speaker 1: decision at the end, and particularly driven by Kristen Cinema,
Speaker 1: to you know, allow what's what seems to be a
Speaker 1: hypocrisy for for many progressive and liberal Democrats that you know,
Speaker 1: they opted out of the closing this loophole and allow
Speaker 1: really wealthy investors to continue. So there is a point
Speaker 1: to be made there because of all the things that
Speaker 1: they opted not to do the fact that it was that,
Speaker 1: and we understand why Kristen Cinema wouldn't get on board
Speaker 1: without it. But it does raise real questions in people's
Speaker 1: minds as to why and what she was getting out
Speaker 1: of making sure that didn't happen. It's gonna be an
Speaker 1: interesting weekend ahead here, uh Rick. Most of this story
Speaker 1: until today, really, well until Marrick Garland's spokester, has been
Speaker 1: all about leaks, right, we heard, I guess the becush
Speaker 1: leaks from everywhere and all sides of this story. Brightbart
Speaker 1: for crying out loud broke uh this warrant earlier today.
Speaker 1: That would be Steve Bannon's operation. Um does Donald Trump
Speaker 1: bring us in on some of this now? How does
Speaker 1: he manage any damage control from here? He's still actually
Speaker 1: holds a lot more information than the people covering him. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm I can't wait for midnight because I guarantee he'll
Speaker 1: start you know, tweeting on his uh, I guess you
Speaker 1: can't call it tweeting, uh. Whatever he does on his
Speaker 1: social media event. I think he is uncontrollably uh desirous
Speaker 1: to try to manage the flow of information here. Look,
Speaker 1: he was the reason Brightbart got that that warrant. He
Speaker 1: had it and gave it to them and and so
Speaker 1: so he's playing the game. He's trying to control the
Speaker 1: narrative on here. The problem is his efforts to control
Speaker 1: the narrative. Keep catch it up with him. I definitely
Speaker 1: think Mark Garland got the best of him this week.
Speaker 1: He put him on defense. He didn't play it well.
Speaker 1: Trump on offense can be something to behold, but Trump
Speaker 1: on defense is a disaster. And that's where he finds
Speaker 1: himself going into the weekend. I'll tell you, Genie, does
Speaker 1: it Does it hasten his announcement for president or delay it?
Speaker 1: You know? I think I've always thought that it hastened
Speaker 1: to the more that he is under legal pressure and
Speaker 1: it looks like the d O J you know, or
Speaker 1: you know, whatever happens with these many other lawsuits, whether
Speaker 1: in Georgia or New York or elsewhere that he's facing,
Speaker 1: that is going to be something that he is going
Speaker 1: to seriously consider. And we heard that after Monday he
Speaker 1: was celebrating, by all reports, with Republicans the fact that
Speaker 1: this was a politically motivated raid, as he called it,
Speaker 1: and that for that reason he was likely to announce earlier,
Speaker 1: and more Republicans supported him in that than they had
Speaker 1: before the quote unquote raid. So I do think he's
Speaker 1: going to use it, and he is fundraising off of this.
Speaker 1: He has been since Monday, so he is had been
Speaker 1: a boon for him in that regard, and I think
Speaker 1: he will continue that and likely will announce as a result.
Speaker 1: We know that the d o J could take some
Speaker 1: time before we learn more here, Rick, do you expect
Speaker 1: another you know, visit to the podium by Marrick Garland
Speaker 1: before November. You know, it's interesting. I mean some commentary
Speaker 1: today which I found fascinating was, well, maybe this is
Speaker 1: all they wanted. Maybe they just want to get these
Speaker 1: secrets back into control of the government and get them
Speaker 1: out of the basement of Donald Trump's place. So it's
Speaker 1: not about being punitive. We just need to protect the
Speaker 1: information right and so you know, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, we may never hear another thing about this.
Speaker 1: If they choose not to prosecute for any reason, this
Speaker 1: is all the story that there is UH, and they
Speaker 1: feel well, UH, satisfied that they've received the material, they
Speaker 1: may choose not to prosecute. So I think all these
Speaker 1: options are ahead of us. I think there's gonna be,
Speaker 1: as you've described it, a leak central, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, everybody's going to be trying to push a narrative,
Speaker 1: and I suspect um. You know, for the balance of August,
Speaker 1: this is what's to dominate our attention because Congress goes home,
Speaker 1: they've accomplished their task, and now the vacuum is going
Speaker 1: to be filled by Donald Trump. The Sunday morning shows
Speaker 1: ought to be a riot. I'll have a bloody Mary.
Speaker 1: Thanks to everybody for being on the program, including of
Speaker 1: course our panel, Rick Davis and Jeannie Shanzano. We couldn't
Speaker 1: do it without them. Every day, Brad Moss, Michael Zelden,
Speaker 1: and Joel Ruben are experts helping us decipher what is
Speaker 1: in the warrants. Beat you back here on Bloomberg