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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called

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Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer

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Speaker 1: Paul mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you. You

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Speaker 1: are here and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. It is our long running listener Males segment.

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Speaker 1: We do this every week. Can we call it long running? Now?

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Speaker 1: Are we there yet? I think so. Yeah. It's just

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Speaker 1: regular old thing now and now and now. It's the

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Speaker 1: it's the new normal. It's one of the new normals

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Speaker 1: of the pandemic. Uh. This this is interesting, you know. Uh.

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Speaker 1: I don't know about you guys, but I'm grateful for

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Speaker 1: all the feedback that we've been getting from our fellow

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Speaker 1: conspiracy realists. Continuing the conversations we have that in listener

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Speaker 1: mail can sometimes feel sensitive to people because we're sharing

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Speaker 1: your stories directly with your fellow listeners. We're responding to

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Speaker 1: things that we know not everybody in the audience may

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Speaker 1: agree with so we're very thankful that you go with

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Speaker 1: us on this journey. Today. We have a mix of

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Speaker 1: things from social media from our phone line one eight

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Speaker 1: three three S T D W y t K and

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Speaker 1: our good old email address conspiracy and I Heart radio

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Speaker 1: dot com one from each and we're talking about genetic mapping. Luckily,

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Speaker 1: we're talking about some folks with firsthand experience at the

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Speaker 1: farming protests in India. But Matt, there's something that you

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Speaker 1: found that perhaps is our our best starting point today. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's a voicemail that cause I think caught all of

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Speaker 1: our interest. That's correct. We got a message from Joseph.

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Speaker 1: I believe it's Joseph. You listen and tell me if

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Speaker 1: that's what you're hearing too. Guys, Pretty sure, Pretty sure

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Speaker 1: it's Joseph. I can't tell. And whoever you are, Joseph,

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Speaker 1: it may not be you. Sorry, but here's your message.

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Speaker 1: Emails you guys about this a long time ago. My

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Speaker 1: name is Joseph. By the way, I live in Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: Emails you guys about this during the big jade elm

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Speaker 1: de Buckle. Somebody called them ADRVA Initiative and it's a

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Speaker 1: d O D Department of defense program with a few universities.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if you guys remember a few

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Speaker 1: years ago when Facebook cut off access for users and

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Speaker 1: people literally thought it was the end of the world.

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Speaker 1: That was parting Minerva initiative based on how to manipulate

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Speaker 1: social media or wartime for missus. I'd really like you

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Speaker 1: guys to check it out because you know, uh, I

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Speaker 1: don't have tied that I even know how, but I

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Speaker 1: love to here. You know, years way back into the

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Speaker 1: YouTube day, Peace to you, Joseph, if that is the

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Speaker 1: name you gave us, definitely Joseph. I remember listening to

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Speaker 1: this and I had different headphones on and I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: I may have been the we make file names for them,

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Speaker 1: so there may have been something where it's just like Joseph.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I don't know. I put Joseph question mark in

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Speaker 1: our doc that we share everybody because like, I think

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Speaker 1: that's what he said, and it's not. Nothing gets to

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Speaker 1: the way you speak. It's just on phone sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: difficult to hear. You should see the misspellings I've got

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Speaker 1: in our documents with the people who call it okay

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Speaker 1: Atlanta guy, yes, an Atlanta guy, and uh, giving us

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Speaker 1: a fascinating topic that apparently he said to us in oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, uh wow. Okay. So the Minerva Initiative,

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Speaker 1: also known as the Minerva Research Initiative, What the heck

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Speaker 1: is that? It sounds like a really cool code name

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Speaker 1: or something. Well, let's dig in. The first place we're

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Speaker 1: going to go is a website Minerva M I N

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Speaker 1: E r v A dot Defense dot gov. This is

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Speaker 1: the official d D website for the Minerva Research Initiative.

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Speaker 1: The subtitle or the subheading, by the way, for this

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Speaker 1: site is supporting Social Science for a Safer world. Sounds lovely,

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Speaker 1: you know. It also sounds lovely the stuff that they

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Speaker 1: have written on the front of their website. And I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna talk to you, and I'm gonna tell you exactly

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Speaker 1: what it says. The Minerva Research Initiative supports social science

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Speaker 1: research aimed at improving our basic understanding of security. Broadly defined,

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Speaker 1: All supported projects are universally based and unclassified, with the

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Speaker 1: intention that all work be shared widely to support thriving,

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Speaker 1: stable and safe communities. The goal is to improve d

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Speaker 1: o D s basic understanding of the social, cultural, behavioral,

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Speaker 1: and political forces that shape regions of the world of

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Speaker 1: strategic importance to the US. That's a lot of things.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot of things. Nice air in those words. Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: it's social science research and essentially what it does is

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Speaker 1: it gives grants to universities for research on specific things.

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Speaker 1: And I'm gonna so you can read more and more

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Speaker 1: and more if you'd like to about specifically what the

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Speaker 1: initiative says about itself on that website, and you know,

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Speaker 1: that's always something you can do. There's also a blog

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Speaker 1: on that website. It's it is named Owl in the

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Speaker 1: Olive Tree. That is the name of their blog. Interesting

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Speaker 1: symbolism there, but yeah, I mean, yeah, totally. It's a minerva.

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Speaker 1: I think it should be familiar to a lot of

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Speaker 1: our listeners, the Roman goddess of wisdom, nice justice, law, victory,

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Speaker 1: but also strategic warfare. Yep, yeah that came later. It's

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Speaker 1: ironic too, because one of her original posts, I guess

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Speaker 1: was also medicine, commerce, handicrafts, poetry and like the arts,

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Speaker 1: and her sacred creature is the owl. So this is

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Speaker 1: very clearly like they're they're leaning into the symbolism. But

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Speaker 1: for anybody who is I think this is this is

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Speaker 1: where you were where you were taking us back. For

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Speaker 1: anyone who's familiar with the symbolism used at places like

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Speaker 1: Bohemian Grove, which is a real thing, obviously, this ruffles

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Speaker 1: some feathers, and not just on owls. Uh. You can

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Speaker 1: look at the because I was looking at this a

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Speaker 1: little bit too. You can look at what they call

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Speaker 1: their research priorities on the website. They haven't been updated

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Speaker 1: since nineteen, So yeah, it's safe to assume that those,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the world of grants can move slowly, so

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Speaker 1: can the world of research, so it's safe to assume

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Speaker 1: those are still kind of top of mind to the

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Speaker 1: minerve of folks. This reminds me a lot of and

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Speaker 1: the way DARPA partners with people, although DARPA is a

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Speaker 1: little more on the engineering hard science side and social

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Speaker 1: science is science, right, Uh, but the ideas themselves are fascinating.

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Speaker 1: This is the kind of stuff I have definitely read

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Speaker 1: about and would read more about. But Matt, why is

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Speaker 1: it controversial? Well, first off, Ben, I think you hit

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Speaker 1: on the right thing here. This is where I wanted

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Speaker 1: to go. Next, their research priorities that were defined in

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen and fairly recent as you it let's run

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Speaker 1: down some of these really quickly. You can get to

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Speaker 1: it on their homepage if you go to research and

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Speaker 1: then I think it's as priorities research priorities. Um, let's

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Speaker 1: just talk about what we think some of these might mean.

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Speaker 1: And Ben, I have a feeling you'll know more than

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Speaker 1: than I in some of this stuff. Topic one, peer

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Speaker 1: near pier state craft, influence and regional balance of power. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so that's interesting. I understand regional balance of power. I

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Speaker 1: understand what influence is. State craft is like close to

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Speaker 1: my understanding, just if they're talking about it in the

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Speaker 1: most general terms. What what I'm interested in here, though,

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Speaker 1: is the peer near pier state craft. I don't understand

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Speaker 1: what that means. Okay, so peer near peer state craft

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Speaker 1: is It's a little buzzworthy of of a way to

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Speaker 1: say it, but um, but think of it in terms

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Speaker 1: of of the biggest the biggest brute in the room.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not calling these States brutes, but like if

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Speaker 1: you look at if you look at North America, the continent,

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Speaker 1: then the United States is the is the largest um

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Speaker 1: burrito in the taco bell bag. Uh, They're not all

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Speaker 1: going to be great. Sorry, this comparison is gonna be bread.

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Speaker 1: But that during the Cold War, if we're looking at

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Speaker 1: the way national defense work, the US considered itself to

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Speaker 1: have a single peer in the world in the in

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Speaker 1: the military sense, and that was of course the U

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Speaker 1: s sr UH. Things that are near peer would be

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Speaker 1: things that are close enough to some level, whatever the

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Speaker 1: metric is, whether that's economic heft, whether that's military might,

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Speaker 1: what have you, you know, UH, they're close enough to

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Speaker 1: each other to be considered near peers, even if they're not,

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Speaker 1: you know, one to one on balance across all these

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Speaker 1: other things. So like a real a nation with a

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Speaker 1: really dangerous military but really terrible UH economic situation could

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Speaker 1: still be a near peer to another country that had UH,

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Speaker 1: if I understand correctly, another country that had an equally

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Speaker 1: dangerous military. So it's it's important because the way those

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Speaker 1: states regard each other, and they usually are not ideologically

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Speaker 1: on the same page, but they're usually in terms of

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Speaker 1: like the hard facts they're going to they're going to

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Speaker 1: agree on their positions relative to one another. And of

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Speaker 1: course real politic would argue that they always want to

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Speaker 1: be the king of the hill. So state craft and

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Speaker 1: influence these things. The way these are applied change based

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Speaker 1: on a state's position relative to another state. So like

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Speaker 1: the way Mexico handles diplomacy with the US is going

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Speaker 1: to be different from the way Mexico handles diplomacy with

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Speaker 1: Canada just because of the US is um individual makeup

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Speaker 1: as a country a lot? Did that make any sense?

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Speaker 1: It does make sense. It's uh, yeah, some of it,

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Speaker 1: some of it. Like that that version makes sense. I

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Speaker 1: need to take a couple of classes in order to

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Speaker 1: fully understand like all of those interactions because all of

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Speaker 1: all of their priorities. Feel like I need to take

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Speaker 1: at least several classes or maybe get a degree. How

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Speaker 1: about this Models and Methods for understanding Covert online influence?

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Speaker 1: That is the only one on here. I think that

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Speaker 1: I really understand Models and methods for understanding covert online

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Speaker 1: influence worth exploring, I think, Or how about multi domain

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Speaker 1: behavioral complexity and computational social modeling. Yeah, that's an icebreaker

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Speaker 1: at the next party, huh, But it's it's definitely like

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Speaker 1: it's research that sounds important, But I don't have a

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Speaker 1: working knowledge of of what, like how you do anything

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Speaker 1: with this stuff, which is why the d D would

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Speaker 1: want I'm assuming to have you know, top minds at

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Speaker 1: research institutes across the country and universities working on these

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Speaker 1: big questions, these these big topics. UM. I want to

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Speaker 1: jump over quickly to Foreign Policy the the website, they've

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Speaker 1: got a right up about this from two thousand eight

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Speaker 1: written by Hugh Gusterson, and the title is when Professors

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Speaker 1: Go to War, And I'm just going to read a

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Speaker 1: part of a paragraph down here it says it's it's

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Speaker 1: talking about these big questions that exists for the Defense

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Speaker 1: Department and and from everything from the Vietnam War, questions

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Speaker 1: about leaders in Vietnam and communicating with the United States,

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Speaker 1: and you know how how policy like shaped the interaction

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Speaker 1: that occurred in the Vietnam War, and everything to issues

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Speaker 1: in the Middle East, responses to responses and responses to

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Speaker 1: situations within countries in the Middle East, and how that

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Speaker 1: affects like what actually occurred. Um. I mean, it's really interesting,

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Speaker 1: big questions. But let me let me just jump to

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Speaker 1: what the writer actually says here. In an attempt to

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Speaker 1: mobilize academic expertise to address such questions. Secretary of Defense

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Speaker 1: Robert Gates that name should ring a bell. Recently announced

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Speaker 1: Project Minerva. Under Minerva, the Pentagon has allocated fifty million

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Speaker 1: dollars for academics to work on a number of fronts,

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Speaker 1: writing about the connections between religion, especially Islam, and terrorism, translating,

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Speaker 1: analyzing and publicly archiving documents captured in the Iraq War,

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Speaker 1: creating a centralized archive of publicly available documents on Chinese

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Speaker 1: military doctrine and technology, and submitting Blue Sky proposals for

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Speaker 1: the development of new paradigms that Gates likened to the

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Speaker 1: role played by game theory during the Cold War. This

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Speaker 1: sounds eerily similar to stuff that we've been talking about recently,

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Speaker 1: been um game theory, you know, the great game and

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Speaker 1: game theory and how it's applied to just all of

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Speaker 1: politics across the globe. Yeah, it can sound. So. The

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Speaker 1: thing about this is these lines of thought are crucial

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Speaker 1: and they have been, um you could argue for the

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Speaker 1: the majority of human history. But but they start with

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Speaker 1: these these basic assumptions, and the basic assumption sound very,

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Speaker 1: very basic, but they lead to complex theories relatively quickly.

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Speaker 1: Like one basic assumption for this kind of line of

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Speaker 1: So even if an individual in a government is mad

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Speaker 1: as a hatter or as at as Nero's opponents said

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Speaker 1: that he was back in the day. The government or

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Speaker 1: will do cost benefit analysis, it will figure out how

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Speaker 1: best to apply its influence and where. Um. A lot

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Speaker 1: the theoretical. That's why they're saying blue sky right. We

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Speaker 1: want the smartest people in the rooms full of the

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Speaker 1: smartest people to tell us how they think different if

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Speaker 1: then propositions might work out. In the international sphere, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of there's a lot of stuff involved with this, like, um,

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Speaker 1: the modeling isn't just people saying, well, I think based

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Speaker 1: on X, why will occur if Z what the It

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Speaker 1: goes down to the point you we've talked about this

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Speaker 1: before and air. There are people who are building virtual

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Speaker 1: simulations of given parts of the world or communities with

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Speaker 1: sophistication such that they want to be careful saying this guys,

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Speaker 1: but such that they may be close to being able

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Speaker 1: to tell the future in a way kind of um.

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Speaker 1: Probably not there yet, hopefully not. I think that's a

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Speaker 1: power people should not have personally um or I think

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Speaker 1: of military should not have that power personally. Uh. And

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Speaker 1: that's not a thing on the U. S Military, I

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Speaker 1: mean any military. And one of the big problems that

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Speaker 1: people are going to have with this, especially our friends

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Speaker 1: who are at the forefront of machine consciousness, is there.

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Speaker 1: You know, you rightly have to ask, even if this

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Speaker 1: stuff is well intentioned, is the guidance or the source

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Speaker 1: of the inspiration the funding is the fact that that

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Speaker 1: itself is a military. Does that mean what we create

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Speaker 1: will be inherently on some level militaristic? And it's a

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Speaker 1: very good question to ask. I don't know what the

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Speaker 1: answer is. I know there a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: argue back and forth about it, and there are so

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Speaker 1: many of these these huge questions in in I just

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Speaker 1: want to point out a couple of things that the

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Speaker 1: and what kinds of projects are being funded and who's

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Speaker 1: getting grants, because that's really, like we said, that's what

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Speaker 1: this is. This is an initiative to give grants to

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Speaker 1: universities and students who are performing this research and trying

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Speaker 1: to answer the questions like the one Ben just post.

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Speaker 1: So This is from The Guardian in so going back

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Speaker 1: a ways right after we started our own YouTube channel

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Speaker 1: and all right then, um so here we go. This

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Speaker 1: is talking about some of the awards. Here we go.

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Speaker 1: Among the projects awarded for the period to is a

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Speaker 1: Cornell University led study managed by the US Air Force

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Speaker 1: Office of Scientific Research, which aims to develop an empirical

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Speaker 1: model quote of the dynamics of social movement, mobilization and contagions. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: how does an idea go viral? Exactly? Arab Spring. Yes.

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Speaker 1: The project will determine the critical mass or tipping point

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Speaker 1: of social contagions by studying their digital traces. In the

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Speaker 1: cases of the Egyptian Revolution, in the Russian Duma elections,

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Speaker 1: in Nigerian fuel subsidy crisis, and the Ghazi Park protests

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Speaker 1: in Turkey, a bunch of bunch of things that occurred

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Speaker 1: where social media played a huge part, where getting the

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Speaker 1: and widespread, and more and more people were more physically

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Speaker 1: mobilized to take action. And there's another one out of

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Speaker 1: the University of Washington that seeks to quote uncover the

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Speaker 1: conditions under which political movements aimed at large scale political

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Speaker 1: and economic change originate along with their characteristics and consequences.

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Speaker 1: That one is managed by the U. S. Army Rees

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Speaker 1: Search Office. Interesting stuff, uh, dangerous stuff? I mean what

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Speaker 1: to what end? Uh? Like? To what end? Would we

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Speaker 1: would we want to predict how to determine the growth

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Speaker 1: or virility of a virility and virility of a given

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Speaker 1: social movement? Would we want to do that because we

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Speaker 1: can make better predictions? Would we want to do that

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Speaker 1: because we can create those when convenient in the future,

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Speaker 1: or would we and prevent them before they occur? Right?

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Speaker 1: So this, I mean this stuff, we can talk about

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Speaker 1: it all day, but there is there is an art

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Speaker 1: to this. The question is, um, what kind of art

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Speaker 1: are we studying? The dark arts? When get to this point?

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Speaker 1: Because you can influence human behavior easily, and especially if

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Speaker 1: you know how these things start. I would argue there's

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Speaker 1: a convincing case to be made in aspects of some

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Speaker 1: of the things site that bad actors were already playing

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Speaker 1: with these kinds of levers and switches and models well

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Speaker 1: before this stuff was uh you know, fit for public consumption, right,

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Speaker 1: And there have been a lot of a lot of professors,

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Speaker 1: a lot of grad students working on things like this

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Speaker 1: for years, um, until we had the technology we have now.

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Speaker 1: A lot of this exploration was in retrospect. Let me

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Speaker 1: go back and look at a series of events in

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen and let me figure out what happened, and

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Speaker 1: then maybe knowing those causes, kind of like a meteorologist

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Speaker 1: knowing the causes, you know, knowing the things that precede

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Speaker 1: a certain kind of storm, maybe we can get a

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Speaker 1: better warning in advance. But now, but the technology we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, it's way different. It's way different, man. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Now we are very close, if not um past the

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Speaker 1: threshold such that well, I say we, but obviously Matt

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Speaker 1: Noel and Mission Control and I are not consulted on

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Speaker 1: these things. Uh, someone within our lifetimes is going to

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Speaker 1: be able to use this in an actionable way. It's

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Speaker 1: just what would they use it for? Would you be

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Speaker 1: I mean, would you be less concerned if it were

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Speaker 1: Nestle instead of the Department of Defense? No? Nor Yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're still right though, Ben. It's it's what is the

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Speaker 1: spark that made that thing happen? What is the fuel

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Speaker 1: that made it spread? And then how how do we

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Speaker 1: actually shut it? Off. Is there a valve that shuts

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Speaker 1: this particular thing off? And how could we do that again?

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Speaker 1: A man? Really good stuff. Thank you Joseph for writing

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Speaker 1: in that this fascinating topic might be worth more of

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Speaker 1: our consideration down the line. It feels like it there's

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Speaker 1: a lot to dig into if you're interested at home

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Speaker 1: and doing some more research on the Minerva Research Siative initiative.

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Speaker 1: I always want to say institute for some reason, it

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Speaker 1: sounds like an organization. UM. You can check out their

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Speaker 1: website and a bunch of write ups that have occurred.

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Speaker 1: You can go to websites for universities like the Massachusetts

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Speaker 1: Institute of Technology or m i T and all other

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Speaker 1: so many other universities that have gotten a grant for

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Speaker 1: this type of research. We recommend checking it out, doing

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Speaker 1: your own research, and then hopefully you'll hear back about

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Speaker 1: more of this from us. And with that will pause

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Speaker 1: for a word from our sponsor. Will be back to

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Speaker 1: hear more from you, and we have returned. Our next

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Speaker 1: piece of correspondence comes to us from Jen T. Jen

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Speaker 1: writes in with something that I thought would interest all

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Speaker 1: of us, as something we've talked a little bit about

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Speaker 1: in the past. Here's what you said, Jen Hi, guys,

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Speaker 1: I was recently listening to an interview with David Sinclair.

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Speaker 1: He was talking about the importance of gene mapping and

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Speaker 1: health and wellness. He suggested doing this through companies like

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Speaker 1: twenty three and me. I really like the idea of

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Speaker 1: mapping my genes to educate myself about what I may

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Speaker 1: be predisposed to and how I can modify my lifestyle

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Speaker 1: for better health. The problem is, I'm skeptical about handing

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Speaker 1: my DNA over to these companies and what they may

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Speaker 1: be doing with the info they compile without my knowledge.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you ever did a show about

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Speaker 1: this topic, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much, jen Um. This is something This

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Speaker 1: is one of the I started to think of them,

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Speaker 1: Matt Noel as phantom topics, These things that these currents

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Speaker 1: that continually come up in our conversations over the years,

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Speaker 1: but somehow don't end up being a full episode now

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Speaker 1: full disclosure. As well, in various projects that Uh, Noel,

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Speaker 1: Matt and I have all worked on, and Paul as well, Uh,

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Speaker 1: the issue of using genetic testing has come up and

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Speaker 1: just shows we've produced or developed. Uh, this is an

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Speaker 1: increasingly important question. It's like, you know, the concern about

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Speaker 1: how Facebook uses your data at times a million like that,

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Speaker 1: It's hard to understand just how much of an issue

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Speaker 1: this is going to become. Are let's start with a cliche.

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Speaker 1: Cliches are cliches because they're true. Uh, the Gadagas situation, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: it was never it never became illegal not to genetically

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Speaker 1: modify your child. It just made their lives terrible because

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Speaker 1: of all the burdens society and burdens upon and barriers

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Speaker 1: against their growth that society would put upon them, namely,

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Speaker 1: I think in their was insurance right liabilities, things like that. Uh,

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Speaker 1: we don't want to scare people, but the potential is

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Speaker 1: here for this, you know. Like, um, we were talking

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Speaker 1: off air before we rolled on this, Like all right,

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Speaker 1: this is not a dean on these companies. They are

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Speaker 1: pretty explicit, well they are. They do tell you that

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Speaker 1: they sell this stuff in their terms of service, but

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Speaker 1: they use phrases, little weasel word phrases like third parties.

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Speaker 1: A third party is it is literally any individual, institution, organization,

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Speaker 1: or government that is not you or that company specifically.

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Speaker 1: So it's like anything else in the world, is a

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Speaker 1: third party that I don't think these companies would ever

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Speaker 1: do this, but just consider like a bond supervillain could

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Speaker 1: be a third party. Elon Musk could be a third party.

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Speaker 1: Isis could be a third party. Uh A a on

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Speaker 1: the surface well intentioned nonprofit that gets taken over by

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Speaker 1: somebody or was started by somebody surreptitiously for the goal

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Speaker 1: of nefarious means could could be that third party. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: A pharmaceutical company could definitely be a third party. Uh. This,

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Speaker 1: this concern is real gen because companies, these companies, some

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Speaker 1: of them, will already sell your genetic information to drug makers,

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Speaker 1: to other Silicon Valley startups. Uh. This this may not

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Speaker 1: have been the intent that you had when you wanted

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Speaker 1: to find out whether you know, your Graham grandmother's stories

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Speaker 1: about your Sicilian ancestors were true or something. But there's

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Speaker 1: there's an argument to be made, an argument you know,

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Speaker 1: we hate here on this show for the greater good. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Pharmaceutical companies R and D outfits med tech. They can

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Speaker 1: in theory create more efficacious drugs and treatments when they

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Speaker 1: are armed with more information. But how does that push

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Speaker 1: toward great or good, even if it is sincere well intentioned,

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Speaker 1: How does it affect you? Does it mean that in

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Speaker 1: the future, if you and uh, if you and your

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Speaker 1: partner are going to have a child, does it mean

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Speaker 1: that insurance automatically goes through the roof for that child

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Speaker 1: because they have modeled they have your genetic info and

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Speaker 1: they've modeled uh. They've modeled this out with such fidelity

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Speaker 1: that they know your kid has is four times more

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Speaker 1: likely than other peers in their age group to get

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Speaker 1: breast cancer at the like in their forties or something like.

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Speaker 1: Do they how how granular can they become? To use

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Speaker 1: the old buzzword, Uh, does that mean that that kid's existence,

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Speaker 1: like their life, is a pre existing condition? And then

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Speaker 1: how does privatized health care system handle that? Like that

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Speaker 1: that stuff can happen? This is not the guess. This

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Speaker 1: gene mapping is doing tremendous things. It is solving crimes

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Speaker 1: that would have remained unsolved for uh for the rest

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Speaker 1: of time by it with that, there comes a trade off.

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Speaker 1: You know. It's like we were talking about this. We're

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Speaker 1: recording an episode on Military Entertainment Complex. I think it

429
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 1: was you know who who used the phrase devil's bargain,

430
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: and in some ways this is very much, uh, it

431
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: has the potential to be a devil's bargain because like

432
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: what happens, what happens when we reach that glad well

433
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 1: asque tipping point, and it is unusual for you not

434
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,880
Speaker 1: to have your individual DNA Matt like when it's when

435
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: it's weird, who would be the person we've talked We've

436
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: talked about that, you know in the package about like

437
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: these databases and you know the upside of it where

438
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: sure there have been crime solved because of this type

439
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: of information, um, but there is a version where it

440
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: could become kind of an all or nothing, like you

441
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: can't really opt out anymore, or it's like being like

442
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: micro chipped at birth or something, you know. I mean, uh, yeah,

443
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 1: it's that tipping point, that slippery slope and and do

444
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: the benefits outweigh the erosion of privacy. But another thing

445
00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: we talked about on the show a lot is the

446
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: illusion of privacy, which is more and more becoming very

447
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: much the order of business, you know, in this country particularly,

448
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: but really in the world. Yeah, well said, I mean,

449
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: this is this is the thing, uh you can should

450
00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: you choose to use these companies, which many many people do.

451
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: Should you choose to use them, they'll give you a

452
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: variety of options about how you want your information shared,

453
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 1: when and with who. But these options are confusing, and

454
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: more hardcore privacy advocates will say they are confusing by design.

455
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's necessarily that conspiratorial, or any

456
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: more conspiratorial than the typical language of a legal agreement.

457
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 1: But here's the thing. Even if you agree, and even

458
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: if they hold up their end of the bargain and

459
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: act in good faith, what happens when a hack occurs?

460
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: What happens when the first genetic database hack hits and

461
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 1: then somebody is selling this information in the black market.

462
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: You're part of it. You're you're part of it, and

463
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: uh yeah, and there's nothing you can do. And then

464
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: what happens even further when it becomes unusual to not

465
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: have your genes Matt, there's a question you can ask,

466
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: which is, Okay, I share the same genes with, say,

467
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: my sibling, Right, so if my sibling gets one of

468
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: these tests, then aren't I functionally already in the system.

469
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: I'm just a few years different or you know whatever,

470
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: your normal variants of things would be. But then we

471
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: have to ask ourselves what happens when we start mapping

472
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: epigenetic changes. Um, epigenetics, it's I don't think we can

473
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 1: call it an emerging science anymore, but it's definitely on

474
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: the forefront of a lot of research. So epigenetics is

475
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: the modification of a way a gene is expressed, or

476
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: it's the study of that rather than the alteration of

477
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: the code itself. So you can see some great longitudinal

478
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: studies about how, uh, the circumstances of a person's life

479
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:14,959
Speaker 1: may affect the way genes express in their children. So

480
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 1: then combine that with a surveillance state, right where everything

481
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: you do is logged, whether via your phone, your records,

482
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: maybe the I M F wins their pitch to base

483
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: something like a credit score on your Internet search history.

484
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: And then people can go back and say like, Okay,

485
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 1: these are two siblings, right, these are two siblings, they

486
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: live these two very different lives. Uh, they had kids, right,

487
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: and of course you know, and the wishes or horses

488
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: version of this kind of research, you would say, like

489
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: there were these two identical twins who lived two very

490
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,320
Speaker 1: different lives. They married another pair of or reproduced with

491
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: at least another pair of identical twins, and now we

492
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: can see what happened to the kid because of the choices, uh,

493
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: those different choices those twins made. That's a lot, but

494
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: it's totally possible. And that's that's what like the problem is.

495
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: We're talking about informed consent here. Because the research is

496
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: so new, because the science is emergent, it is impossible

497
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: to know exactly what you were agreeing to on either

498
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: side of that equation, whether you're one of those companies

499
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 1: or whether you are one of those UH customers or

500
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: one of their you know, walking data minds. But I

501
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: think we didn't some of us have gotten those tests.

502
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: I never did it, but um, did you met or

503
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: was it you know? I did it through like it

504
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: was like a sponsorship years and years ago. I did

505
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: a twenty three and me thing, and um, it was

506
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: really I think I've mentioned on the show that the

507
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: initial results you get are super underwhelming if you're someone

508
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,240
Speaker 1: like me who is like mainly Nordic. It wasn't remember,

509
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: it was just being kind of like a wamp womp whomp.

510
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: But there are apparently other UH services that can do

511
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 1: a deeper dive into your results and get you much

512
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 1: more granular information. So I think that's probably where the

513
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: more fun stuff comes from. Yeah, and I've I've done it,

514
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: I guess tangentially because my wife and my son, and

515
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: my sister and my dad and my Yeah, my my

516
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: entire family is basically gone with one one or the

517
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: other of the major ones. I've just walked in to

518
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: the twenty three and ME headquarters and talked with people there,

519
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: but I've never actually let them take my spit. You

520
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: walked in and talked. Where's their headquarters? It's out there

521
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, near San Francisco. Oh, that was research though?

522
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,840
Speaker 1: Was it was that show research? Yeah, that was an

523
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: interview for the Zodiac show. That's right. Back then, I

524
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: was like, I think they had partnerships and ME had

525
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: partnerships with Glaxo Smith Klein and maybe a few others,

526
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: but like drug companies specifically, that's what they were partnering

527
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: with to share information. And at that time, it was

528
00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: definitely if you're a user consumer, you you have to

529
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: state whether or not you could that you would allow

530
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: them to use your information and research, right, and then

531
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: you know this can't like this is not automatically some

532
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: sinister plot, because that information is immensely valuable, especially researching

533
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,839
Speaker 1: chronic or currently incurable conditions. Right like, if you if

534
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: you had the choice, and if it was phrased this way,

535
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: the phrasing is so important. If you had the choice two,

536
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: make sure that future children would be able to not

537
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,279
Speaker 1: have lupus. Wouldn't you like to think of yourself as

538
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 1: the kind of person and who is generally for helping

539
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: kids not have diseases. It's a tough thing to say

540
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: no to. It's kind of like, you know, when you

541
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: get that little shake down at the grocery store and

542
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: they're like, hey, do you want to donate five dollars

543
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 1: or do you hate orphans? And then you have to

544
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: be like I I three dollars like orphans, right, and

545
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 1: then just hope the people behind you in line they'll see. Also,

546
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: by the way, yes, I think we talked about this

547
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: in the past. Those things are not always on the

548
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 1: up and up. But what what you said Matt there

549
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: about how eventually it doesn't matter, or it may not

550
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: matter epigenetic society. You're still you're still a valuable piece

551
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:43,240
Speaker 1: of the puzzle. But it's a lot like for anybody

552
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: who's been in the suburbs. I've seen people in the

553
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: suburbs who who have done things I thought were so clever.

554
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: There was one family I was aware of that had

555
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 1: decided they didn't have to build offense because if their

556
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: backyard neighbor build defense, and the house to the right

557
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,560
Speaker 1: built defense and the house to the left built offense. Oh,

558
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 1: they found me. We'll keep that in. But you know

559
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, like, eventually the offence functionally gets built

560
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: with no action on your own part. And this DNA

561
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: stuff is a little bit, a little bit similar to that.

562
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: I would say, um, but again it's not it's not

563
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: necessarily bad. And perhaps the most important point gen before

564
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: we move on here, is that you have, ostensibly, um,

565
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:39,439
Speaker 1: you have the ability to request that your information be deleted.

566
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:45,000
Speaker 1: So read the read what you're agreeing to very carefully

567
00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: because once once that stuff is sold, it's out of

568
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: the company's hands. Like once ancestry or my heritage or

569
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: whomever sells your data to that third party, which again

570
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 1: could be anyone that is not you or that company,

571
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: it becomes pretty difficult to track. You will have even

572
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,640
Speaker 1: if people are doing their due diligence and trying to

573
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: help you find it. It can be difficult. And also

574
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: you know, if you've been in the military or if

575
00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 1: you depending on part of the world you're in, if

576
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: you have been in UM, in the justice system, the

577
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 1: incarceration system, I guess it's two very different systems. Then

578
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 1: you're probably on file somewhere with some database. But if

579
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,439
Speaker 1: you want to learn how to delete this information, there's

580
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 1: a great article by Aaron Broadwyn over a business Insider

581
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: b R O d W I N and this will

582
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: walk you through what you need to do. Otherwise, UM

583
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: and it varies by company, but otherwise, like a company

584
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: like twenty three and me would be able to keep

585
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: your your spit sample and therefore your data for up

586
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: to ten years. And given the pace of this technology,

587
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 1: genetic research ten years from now is going to be

588
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 1: a a wildly different animal in comparison to genetic research

589
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: in so, again, choices up to you. It's your comfort level.

590
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 1: You probably will learn some amazing things about yourself because

591
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: it evolves, but the choices, the choices up to you.

592
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: And you know these people aren't super villains. It's just

593
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: no one can tell the future yet. Depending on what

594
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: Minerva gets up to. No, but I just want to

595
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: say I found another headline from Aaron over at Business Insider,

596
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: and I think it was right before this. It was

597
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: written a couple of months before the article we were

598
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: looking at, and the title is DNA testing Company twenty

599
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: three and me has signed a three hundred million dollar

600
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: deal with a drug giant. Here's how to delete your data.

601
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: If that freaks you out, yeah, yeah, And it's important

602
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: because we see it all the time on this show.

603
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:03,520
Speaker 1: Technology always outpaces legisation, So right now, legislation still hasn't

604
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 1: really caught up to what's possible with genetic research, which

605
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: means the burden of protecting yourself and your information is

606
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:16,800
Speaker 1: on you. So just tread fearlessly into the future, friends,

607
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: but keep your eyes open while you walk, you know

608
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 1: what I mean, relaxing to poetic will pause. We want

609
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 1: to hear your input, your experience with genetic testing, your

610
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: ideas of the future of genetic testing, the dangers, the advantages. Uh.

611
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 1: We'll tell you how to get in touch with us

612
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: again at the end of the show, but for now,

613
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: let's pause for a word from our sponsor, and then

614
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: we will return with updates on the ground, exactly what

615
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: we were looking for from a previous Strange News segment.

616
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: And we're back with our final listener mail of the day.

617
00:39:55,880 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: This one comes to us from Instagram. Uh and more

618
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: so than from Instagram, from Delhi, India from a listener

619
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: named Shube s h U b h. Shob says, I

620
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: just heard your farms protest segment on Strange News that

621
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: you referenced before the break been. The protest is happening

622
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: one hundred meters from my house. You can't cover it

623
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: in one episode. It's deep. No Western media will cover

624
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: the story. Go for two parts. Okay. Duly noted the

625
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: protest is highly politicized. The people leading the protests are

626
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: basically the ones who also ran and got defeated against

627
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:35,959
Speaker 1: the ruling party. Also search about this one former leader

628
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: Rakesh Takat. Forgive me from butchering that last dame pronunciation

629
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: who basically politicized the protests, incided violence uh and is

630
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 1: still basically doing the same thing. And there's one thing

631
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 1: at the root of the protest Kalistan. You would have

632
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: to research about Kalistan. Kalistani elements have basically infiltrated the

633
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 1: protests and are trying to create a mess. The government

634
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: tried to crack down against them, but the opposition tried

635
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 1: to gain some points by basically labeling it as quote

636
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: framing farmers and calling them terrorists and trying to stop

637
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: the protests. We need this. No outlet in the West

638
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: will ever show India a good, honest picture, same old

639
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: stereotypes of God knows which era. If there's anything I

640
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: can do to help, message me, I'm your guy in

641
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: India and I do believe we're gonna take him mop

642
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,960
Speaker 1: on this. He sent this message to the three of us,

643
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:26,239
Speaker 1: and also I believe reached out to you Ben on Twitter, Uh,

644
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: and I believe this was your story in the first place,

645
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: something you've been following. But maybe we should start by

646
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,359
Speaker 1: talking a little bit about what Kalistan is, because it's

647
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: not something I was intimately familiar with. Yeah, totally. Thank

648
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,560
Speaker 1: you to Shub and thank you, of course to some

649
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: of the other listeners we had shouted out who are

650
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: either in India or have friends and family in country,

651
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: including Shelley stg Um Kalistan, Uh, Noel, you and I

652
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 1: were talking about this a little bit off air. It's um,

653
00:41:54,360 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 1: it's a seekh separatist movement for people in the US

654
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: and probably in Canada. To you, you may be aware

655
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: of Sikhism because you have met some people who practice

656
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,919
Speaker 1: the religion of Sikhism, and uh, you know, a lot

657
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:20,960
Speaker 1: of times practitioners of this religion are unfairly confused with

658
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 1: or conflated with, like say, someone of the Hindu faith

659
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: or something like that, right, or Buddhism. Even these are

660
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 1: very very different. These are different religious systems, different religious

661
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 1: belief systems. Um. We ourselves are not Seeks, but we

662
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 1: have we know people who are Sikh. But again they're

663
00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: all they're all people in the US, you know what

664
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean. They they've got US families. It's just it's

665
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: the same thing as someone being in the US and

666
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 1: have like being Catholic or something, you know what I mean.

667
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 1: It's their religion, but maybe not national identity. UM. Seeks

668
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: practice what are known as the five k's, at least

669
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 1: that's often how I refer to it in English in

670
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 1: the West, which is kesh uncut hair ka and iron

671
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 1: or steel bracelet, cure pan that's the the dagger that's

672
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: tucked into the belt. Uh cach era, which is a

673
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:21,080
Speaker 1: cotton undergarment conga, which is a small wooden comb. They

674
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: always have to have these things on their bodies. So uh,

675
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 1: this that's just what That's a very small snapshot of

676
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 1: like a physical thing that I think gets a lot

677
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 1: of attention in the West. But nold to your point.

678
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: Kalistan is this movement by practitioners of the Sikh religion

679
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: who say, we want to make our own sovereign country

680
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: and it will be a Sikh country and it will

681
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: be I believe in the Punjab region. That yeah, and

682
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: it but it would be made up of kind of

683
00:43:56,640 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: like the way of proposed courd nation, be made up

684
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: of different pieces of existing nations. This would be made

685
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: up of different uh, different parts of India and Pakistan.

686
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: This goes back into you know, the days of Empire

687
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: and the way that empires purposely drew lines that sometimes

688
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: separated historically unified communities. That's right. And then the the

689
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: Kalistanum group believe they have a almost like a preordained

690
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: right to this land into into this um. This the state,

691
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: the separatist state. And it goes back a long way,

692
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: like you said, to the fall of the British Empire.

693
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: But today it remains, and it is almost how how

694
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: would you describe it, band, I mean, it's sort of

695
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: in this context, the way UH this group is is

696
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: almost trying to politicize these UH protests to discredit the

697
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: Indian government, Isn't that right? And and then to kind

698
00:44:56,160 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: of help use this unrelated cause to their cause. I

699
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,319
Speaker 1: think that's kind of the takeaway that I'm getting. Yeah,

700
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 1: it feels like the perspective here is something something along

701
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: that lines. Like the idea is that opportunists have entered

702
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 1: the fray. Right. These are accusations we saw UH surrounding

703
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: protests in the US, for instance, And it is true

704
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 1: that at times there have been other forces that go

705
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: into any protests or movement to try to piggyback on

706
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: it and get their message amplified or get their goals

707
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: closer to reality. Um, there were a lot of what

708
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 1: we would call kalistonic groups that we're doing things that

709
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: maybe other groups weren't necessarily approving of. Right. Um. The U.

710
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 1: S Department of State found that in general, what they

711
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,800
Speaker 1: describe as seek extremism has decreased significantly. But of course

712
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean people gave up by any means. It

713
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: just means like maybe they're exercising influence in a different

714
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: way or or employing a different strategy. The problem is,

715
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 1: as you might imagine, folks, whenever any uh like, imagine

716
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: you are the president or the prime minister of the

717
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: monarch of a country and you have a community of

718
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: people who are relatively you know, they're just normal people,

719
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: but they're they're relatively unified community. And they come to

720
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: you and they say, hey, Prime Minister, President, monarch, we

721
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: want our own thing. Not only do I want our

722
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: own thing, but we want a piece of your house

723
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:33,919
Speaker 1: that we're going to use to build it. Like, what

724
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: what do you? What do you do? At that point,

725
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: it's not considered a good look. Most authorities are very

726
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: very hesitant to say, oh, yeah, you know, sure whatever,

727
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: take uh which Dakota do you want? Pick a Dakota.

728
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: Just just go for one of the Dakotas. Can't have

729
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 1: them both, you can get one. That so rarely happens.

730
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: That's why wars happen. That's why secession leads to conflict,

731
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 1: because once somebody list institution gets their hands on something,

732
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 1: they don't want to let it go. There's nothing wrong

733
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 1: with that, um, that's just how the world works. But no,

734
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: at this point it sounds like Should is saying that

735
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 1: Kalistani forces or groups, even if their breakaway groups have

736
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: essentially taken over steering of the protest right. This is

737
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: a very complex story and worthy of uh. If not

738
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: a two part are definitely a whole deep dive episode. Um.

739
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: But but one of the names that Should mentioned Rakesh

740
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: to Kate or to Kait, who is a leader of

741
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: this union called the b k U, the Barachia Kissan

742
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: Union um, which appears to be, if not directly a

743
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 1: wing of the Kalistan movement, in in league with them

744
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,320
Speaker 1: in some way or allying with them in some way. Um.

745
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: Because he is claiming that the Indian government silence around

746
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,919
Speaker 1: this these protests indicate that there is going to be

747
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: some kind of drastic measure taken um. And and is

748
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: sort of seemingly poking the bear a little bit in

749
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 1: terms of you know, almost like speaking in and taunting

750
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 1: language to the government or or daring them to do something.

751
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: I mean. And and he's being referred to almost as

752
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: like I was looking at this article in Times of

753
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: India that talks about this this gentleman and and the

754
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: role he's playing in this, and a lot of the

755
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: comments are calling him an anarchist and saying that he's

756
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: a fringe character and that he's essentially kind of co

757
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: opting this movement for his own ends, the ends of

758
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: his union. But then, Ben, you made a really good point.

759
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: The women's wing of the b k U claimed that

760
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:47,000
Speaker 1: the government was labeling the farmers as Kalistani's UH, in

761
00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: other words, reversing what we're talking about here, to try

762
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 1: to discredit that movement. So there's a lot of people

763
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: trying to throw a lot of people under the bus here,

764
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 1: possibly for their own personal ends and not really anything

765
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 1: to do with UH. You know, the welfare of these

766
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,799
Speaker 1: these farmers who are essentially starving because they are these

767
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: just just to go back to the original story, there's

768
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 1: these unfair bulk purchasing um deals essentially that does not

769
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: pay them a living wage for the crops that they've grown. Yeah,

770
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: that's the that's the concern, right, these laws passed in

771
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 1: As we said in an earlier episode, these laws passed

772
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: UH in September of last year, and these protests have

773
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,760
Speaker 1: have picked up steams since then. But the the issue

774
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: is that, especially in the West, Um, the way that

775
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 1: mainstream news is constructed restricts a lot of programming to

776
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 1: these blocks, right, these three two maybe ten, what maybe

777
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: twelve minute blocks of information before they move on to

778
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 1: the next thing. And that, uh, to your earlier point here,

779
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,799
Speaker 1: show that seems like it's it's not up to the

780
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 1: it's not enough to time to explore the deep roots

781
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 1: of this that you know noelan Matt have mentioned here

782
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: but them. The weird thing is if you go we

783
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: may have talked, I know, we talked about this, but

784
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: if you just look at Wikipedia, which we don't usually

785
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: recommend as a source. Uh, what I always like to do,

786
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: I haven't seen this, Let's let's check it out. What

787
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 1: I always like to do is not is going to

788
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 1: a hot button issue and not look at the article tab,

789
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: go to the talk tab, see what people are fighting about. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

790
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: Like even even on that that I didn't even know

791
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: that was the thing on Wikipedia band But like I said,

792
00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: the comments even on that Times of India article, very

793
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: divisive figure. Um in this b Ku leader whoo's you know,

794
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: kind of calling out the government and people are saying,

795
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, clearly siding with the government, saying go home.

796
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: You're an anarchist, you know, stop trying to stir the

797
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 1: pot or whatever. So, um, think about any comments section

798
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,919
Speaker 1: on any social media platform, including any publication, where you're

799
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: going to have the absolute extremes represented an opinion about

800
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: any figure, no matter how much you as an individual

801
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: agree with that person or disagree with that. These were

802
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: pretty consistent, like to what I was saying, like, pretty

803
00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,479
Speaker 1: consistently negative towards this guy. But it also you know, again,

804
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,280
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, certain newspapers have certain types

805
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 1: of constituencies and readerships. Perhaps the Times of India is

806
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,879
Speaker 1: more pro government folks, you know what I mean? I right,

807
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: And that can change the narrative in ways that might

808
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: not be immediately obvious to some readers. Right. Um. So,

809
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: one thing that is interesting is there have been things

810
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 1: that are called incidents of fake news or allegations of

811
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 1: fake news in the political debate here, where statements are

812
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 1: being misattributed to other people or where some media outlets

813
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:03,520
Speaker 1: have reported things that later uh turned out not to

814
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 1: be true. And one of the big hot button issues

815
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: here is that there are apparently a lot of farmers

816
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: in the protests who are saying, look, we're not Calistanis.

817
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: You are misreporting who we are and what we want.

818
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: What we want is for these laws to go away

819
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: because we're not consulted about these laws. Uh, stop trying

820
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,520
Speaker 1: to link us up with separatist movements. But then it's

821
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 1: weird because when I'm always uhlways paying attention to the buzzwords,

822
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: because when the buzzwords start entering the conversation, that's when

823
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: you know things are going to go off the rails

824
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: a lot of Like one protester, one phrase we found

825
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: was the phrase the moody media instead of mainstream, which

826
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: is the name which is a reference to the leader

827
00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 1: of the Indian government m hm. And so you know,

828
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: that's like what the Moody media won't tell you. It's

829
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 1: kind of like what the mainstream narrative won't tell you.

830
00:52:59,560 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: And so no matter what we know or don't know

831
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: right now, we can say one thing for sure. It

832
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 1: appears there is an information war in Indian media over

833
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:16,160
Speaker 1: what the identity of these protesters should be considered as,

834
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 1: which is why schulbrights out rights to us and says, no,

835
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 1: these are not just farmers, these are uh, these are

836
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: separatists who have used what what may have begun as

837
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,880
Speaker 1: a farming protest for something else, but then there are

838
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: other people in those protests saying, hey, no we're not

839
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,320
Speaker 1: We're just we're farmers. The truth is difficult to discern

840
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: at least right now. You know, I completely agree, and

841
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: it gets an ongoing thing. I mean, these protests are

842
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: still literally taking place. One from show's home. This message

843
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: came in like yesterday and you know, by the way shop,

844
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: thank you for writing to us, because we saw we

845
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 1: saw these messages. And then I also saw a message

846
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: where where you were like, look, I took an hour

847
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: writing to you guys, finding every way to contact you.

848
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: Uh so, very um grateful for the time you took. Also,

849
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,120
Speaker 1: very casually just dropped the fact that the that the

850
00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: show is sixteen years old and seems to have a

851
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 1: depth of understanding of the geopolitical situation going on here

852
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:20,200
Speaker 1: that is very complex. But imagine something that you know,

853
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: it would be much more familiar to someone who grew

854
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:25,360
Speaker 1: up in that part of the country following these nuanced

855
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: kind of you know, divides over time as opposed to

856
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: us trying to deep dive into it. And then a

857
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: couple of sittings, right, yeah, Yeah, we're gonna have to

858
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to catch up. Let's see, because we

859
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: are we are in an era and this last time,

860
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:44,479
Speaker 1: I'll stopped riding this hobby horse for at least two weeks,

861
00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: I promised. But we are in the era of information war.

862
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 1: We are in the era of of fighting for control

863
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,480
Speaker 1: of a narrative, and informational wars are just going to

864
00:54:55,520 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: become increasingly difficult to navigate sooner than you think. I mean,

865
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 1: this might sound like I'm coming out of the blue

866
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: with it, but you guys saw those fake Tom Cruise

867
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 1: videos right by the deep fake ones. Yeah, I mean

868
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, pretty indistinguishable, and it's the technology is

869
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: becoming democratized so soon anybody can put anyone wherever they

870
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:21,960
Speaker 1: want in any situation. I can't remember where I heard this,

871
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure we've discussed it, but or maybe

872
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: it was something that that our friend of the show,

873
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 1: Matt Riddle mentioned. Uh, it's gonna come a point where

874
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: in order to protect ourselves against that kind of thing,

875
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: there's gonna have to be a watermark or some kind

876
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: of digital uh you know, indicator on footage so that

877
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 1: you know it came from the original source. But that

878
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 1: then we start getting into the kinds of things we

879
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: were talking about in the last story. Bet just about

880
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,000
Speaker 1: with the slippery slope of that and information control and

881
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 1: then losing the ability to maybe disseminate things at all

882
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 1: because it's all on lockdown, because everyone's so paranoid, someone's

883
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: gonna make a deep fake out of your footage and

884
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: then you can't get it. You can't get archival foot

885
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 1: it's for documentaries anymore. I mean, who knows where it

886
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,320
Speaker 1: could go. And meanwhile M I. T and the Department

887
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: of Defense are studying all of it to figure out

888
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,120
Speaker 1: how to make it more effective in the future. Well,

889
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,359
Speaker 1: how how how to make things safe? How to make

890
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: things safe for national interests? Wow, not even security, we're

891
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: softening that. I love it. But also this, uh, this

892
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: means in the next few years, this kind of stuff

893
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: will depend on you know, animation of still photos of

894
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: you video is a huge gift to these kind of initiatives.

895
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: And also, I hate to say it, audio for the

896
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: three of us, the ship has sailed. We have enough

897
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: audio out there right now that uh, you can frank

898
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: In bite us probably to say almost anything. We just Uh,

899
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 1: hopefully the technology isn't there yet for it to sound

900
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 1: like it's actually us right. Well, I think I mentioned

901
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 1: this before the show one time when I was visiting

902
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:05,720
Speaker 1: our our offices in New York. Um, I wasn't waiting

903
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: to go into a meeting. And we have like, you know,

904
00:57:08,280 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: people within the company that like look for new tech

905
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: like that, you know, being a big media company, And

906
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: just casually one of those guys was around and our

907
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: boss was like, dude, you gotta check this out. And

908
00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: I can't rember what it was called, but we had

909
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: just either bought the rights to it or like the

910
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 1: you know, to test it, to beta test it. And

911
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: it was essentially this software that can just scan your audio,

912
00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 1: not franken bite, but just scan and then create a

913
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 1: very realistic fac simily. And the idea would be, oh,

914
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: now you don't have to read ads anymore. We can

915
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:39,760
Speaker 1: just run it through this thing and one will be

916
00:57:39,800 --> 00:57:42,560
Speaker 1: the wiser uh. And again, you know, it take a

917
00:57:42,560 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: hell of a lot of AI to to match the

918
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: wit and uh and personality and depth of knowledge of

919
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: a Ben Bolan or a Matt Frederick, but uh, you know,

920
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 1: with the right script, shoot Scott Arkerman could run every

921
00:57:56,200 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: podcast network ever just by punching up script. He always

922
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:05,439
Speaker 1: texts me about that at the weirdest times, is he

923
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: on our research docks. It's just like it's weird. Nicest guy,

924
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,520
Speaker 1: nicest guy. I gotta say that. But yeah, you know,

925
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 1: think about it. I don't probably can't disclose a ton

926
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,200
Speaker 1: of stuff, but yeah, I was surprised. I did some

927
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:24,560
Speaker 1: uh some dabbling with some of this tech, and I

928
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: was surprised by how far it came along. It doesn't

929
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,840
Speaker 1: quite have the same sort of I mean, we're all

930
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: improvising right to a degree when we speak extemporaneously, so

931
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:37,800
Speaker 1: it still feels a little scripted, and it's missing some

932
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: of those internative plot twist right where someone goes up

933
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: or down or something like that. And you know, Noel, Matt,

934
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: you all are audio experts, so you would probably, I

935
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 1: would say, you would probably be much more difficult to

936
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: fool than the average person, even if you thought it

937
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 1: was really them saying something. Might think, oh, they are

938
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: having a bad day, sums off with them, you know,

939
00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 1: or or it's real and we want it to look

940
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,720
Speaker 1: like that or sound like that. It's not real, right,

941
00:59:09,800 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: So that's that's why we're in a post truth world

942
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: right now, because no matter what someone tells you, it

943
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: could be the other things. Seeing is not believing. I mean,

944
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: it might be believing, but it does not equal truth.

945
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: We're here, you know, we give it our talking heads

946
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: on these YouTube videos. But I know we're wearing different

947
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: shirts and hats. Sometimes me, I wear the same shirt

948
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: and that's my design. I I am not wearing my

949
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: mask for this one. I should. Uh, it's amazing. Um, yeah,

950
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: you're right. I mean to bring this back. The reason

951
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 1: we're taking some pains to explore that aspect of the

952
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: difficulty determining the facts here is because we want to

953
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,560
Speaker 1: be we want to be very clear. We're grateful for

954
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: everybody reaching out to us about the situation in India.

955
00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:02,320
Speaker 1: We hope that people are safe and it does not

956
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: result of further harm for people. But you have to understand,

957
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: for folks, if you are reading news about a country

958
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,480
Speaker 1: that you haven't been to and you don't speak the

959
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: language natively, then to a degree your viewpoint can be

960
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 1: controlled by these stuff. You are able to access the

961
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:27,000
Speaker 1: stuff that's translated into your language, the stuff that arrives

962
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: to you via international media. I know, social media is

963
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: kind of horrible, but it's a very good thing it's

964
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 1: around because the alternative would be more stumbling in the

965
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:42,240
Speaker 1: dart toward the end of the world. Well, that didn't

966
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: come off as optimistic as as I had hoped. Hey,

967
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: that's okay. Use use the social media to your advantage

968
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,760
Speaker 1: and the world's advantage. Find us on Facebook and Twitter

969
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:56,280
Speaker 1: where we are conspiracy stuff, and Instagram where we are

970
01:00:56,400 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: conspiracy stuff show. Uh, do your part and re reach

971
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:03,959
Speaker 1: out if you like that stuff. If you don't say,

972
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 1: you can call us. We have a phone number, right,

973
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: it's one three s T d W y t K.

974
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 1: You can leave us a message. Try to keep it

975
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: within the allotted three minutes, and you might end up

976
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: on one of our listener male episodes, just like Joseph.

977
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:23,400
Speaker 1: Maybe just like maybe Joseph did today. Um, and thank

978
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:25,800
Speaker 1: you Joseph for that. I think we all agreed it

979
01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,240
Speaker 1: was definitely Joseph. But I but I love the mystery. Uh.

980
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,840
Speaker 1: If you don't want to do that, you can also

981
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,760
Speaker 1: go over to Apple Podcasts and leave us a glowing

982
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 1: review or if there's something that you know you want

983
01:01:35,880 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: some constructive criticism. We were were into that too, just

984
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 1: don't you know, say mean things about us personally, because

985
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:44,360
Speaker 1: we're all pretty sensitive dudes. But there is a final

986
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:46,040
Speaker 1: way to reach out to us. If none of that

987
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,000
Speaker 1: stuff does it for you, you can send us a

988
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:51,200
Speaker 1: good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at i heart

989
01:01:51,320 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 1: radio dot com. M m hmmm. Stuff they don't want

990
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:14,360
Speaker 1: you to know. Is a production of I heart Radio.

991
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i

992
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

993
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.