WEBVTT - You Will Marry the Wrong Person (Couples Therapist Vienna Pharaon) 0:00:03.240 --> 0:00:05.840 No one has all the answers, but when we ask 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:10.680 the right questions, we get a little closer, closer to truths, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:16.560 closer to each other, even closer to ourselves. I'm journalist 0:00:16.600 --> 0:00:19.280 Danielle Robe, and each week, my guests and I come 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:22.800 together to challenge the status quo and our own ways 0:00:22.800 --> 0:00:25.279 of thinking by daring to ask. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.360 What if, why not? 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:29.080 And who says? 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:30.600 So? 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.920 Come curious, dig deep, and join the conversation. It's time 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:42.199 to question everything. About five years ago, I read an 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:45.720 article that was ten years old, published in twenty sixteen 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:49.920 in The New York Times by Alan de Baton. It 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.360 was called why You Will Marry the Wrong Person. I 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:55.760 was obsessed with it. I'm still obsessed with it because 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.440 at first the title feels insane, cynical, almost offense right, 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:05.360 But the deeper idea underneath it totally captivated me. It's 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:09.280 actually oddly liberating. The article asked the question, what if 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.120 the biggest change in your relationship isn't finding the right person. 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:17.560 What if it's understanding the person doing the choosing. So 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.880 the author or the writer de Baton argues that there 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.959 is no perfect person waiting to complete us. We are 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.959 all imperfect evolving humans, carrying our own histories and wounds 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:32.880 and expectations and blind spots into our relationships. The people 0:01:32.920 --> 0:01:34.840 we love don't just meet who we are today, they 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:37.959 meet every version of us that is still unfolding. But 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:40.040 here's the part he doesn't fully answer in the piece. 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.520 Why do we keep choosing the same kinds of relationships 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.800 over and over again? Why do some people feel impossible 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:49.920 to get over? Why do we stay too long? And 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:52.320 why do we know our patterns and still repeat them? 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:58.720 And that's where today's guest comes in. Vienna Ferryon is 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:01.279 one of the most sought after licensed marriage and family 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.400 therapists in the country. She's also the best selling author 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:07.480 of The Origins of You. Her work begins with a 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.400 provocative idea, Your relationships didn't start when you met your partner. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.040 They started in your childhood, long before you knew who 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:17.360 you would love. You were learning what love feels like, 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:22.160 what conflict feels like, what safety feels like, what belonging 0:02:22.240 --> 0:02:25.760 feels like, and what you would possibly mistake for connection. 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:32.320 When attachment is at risk, we will trade authenticity every 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:33.080 single time. 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:35.919 Vienna says that almost all of us are carrying one 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:42.000 of five origin wounds worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust or safety. 0:02:42.040 --> 0:02:45.920 And until we understand those wounds, we keep recreating them. 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.639 She says, if you have any unwonted patterns in your 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.919 life today, your past is running the show. 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:54.880 If it is hysterical, it's historical. 0:02:56.080 --> 0:03:00.360 I love that quote. If it's hysterical, it's historical. So 0:03:00.400 --> 0:03:02.920 in this conversation, we talk about why we mistake the 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.880 familiar for the right person, how to tell the difference 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:10.000 between chemistry and conditioning, the questions that the healthiest couples 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.960 ask each other that most of us avoid, and whether 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:17.720 relationships can truly recover from betrayal. She also shares the 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.400 one and only sign that you are in a healthy relationship. 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.240 So today we're asking are we choosing our relationships or 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:27.639 are our wounds choosing them? 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:28.200 For us? 0:03:28.960 --> 0:03:40.040 It's time to question everything with Vienna Ferion Vienna true 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:42.880 or false? Everybody will marry the wrong person. 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:44.800 I have to go with false on that. 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:51.280 Okay, say more, well, I feel like I married the 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:52.080 right person. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.480 So if I look at my own life, I feel 0:03:54.520 --> 0:03:56.720 like I have to say no to that. And then 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:01.120 I also, obviously work with so many couple and individuals 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:07.440 in relationships and know their stories so intimately. And I 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:12.120 think it probably depends how we're defining right and wrong. Yeah, 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.800 so maybe we'll get into that. But it's not that 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:19.680 right is easy, you know. It's not that right is 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:26.560 without conflict or without hardship or trials and tribulations. And 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.560 I've said this before, there is no one other than 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:32.279 Connor who I want to go through the hard with. 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.560 That's what I hear from so many people that are 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.279 happily partnered. Although that article says that we don't really 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.839 seek happiness, we seek familiarity. Do you agree with that? Yeah? 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:47.479 I think unconsciously we're seeking familiarity and it's the good, 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:50.480 it's the not so good. And then the way that 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.120 we participate with it is that we either do a 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.240 path of repetition or we do a path of opposition. 0:04:58.640 --> 0:05:02.400 And and until we start to do some of this 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:06.360 healing work and awareness work, Yeah, then I think it's 0:05:06.400 --> 0:05:09.640 probably true to say that we're dating, we're partnering with 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:13.839 people who are going to contribute and participate in the 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:15.800 rewounding of us. 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:18.360 So are we picking our partners based on love? 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.599 I think both, and I think both, and I think 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.599 it depends where you are in your awareness journey. You know, 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:35.400 initially when we connect with someone, it's not based on love, right, 0:05:35.440 --> 0:05:38.120 like those first I really think that love is about 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:45.720 knowing someone deeply, So that early butterfly stage, the honeymoon stage, 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.839 the stage that lasts, you know, I think at most 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:54.039 I think they say eighteen months somewhere around there. Sure 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:56.640 we see the hard sometimes in the early parts, but 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.560 a lot of people don't, right, Some couples do. Some 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:03.760 couples face hardship right away, but many couples don't see 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.760 the hardship or experience the hardship until later. And we 0:06:06.880 --> 0:06:11.480 don't know a person until we've really seen all parts 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:14.720 of them, many parts of them, And it's hard for 0:06:14.760 --> 0:06:17.160 that to happen right out of the gate. Doesn't mean 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:20.000 that it can't, right, But I think when you look 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:24.240 at your average relationship across the board, most people are 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.880 not going through hard or having their partner be fully 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:32.360 revealed to them for a while. I remember, actually when 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:35.960 I was dating Connor, it was before we got engaged, 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:37.839 when we got into our first conflict. Don't know what 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:40.120 it was about, but this part of me that came 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:44.280 forward was this woman who was doubling down, tripling down, 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.720 quadrupling down, needing to be right, needed to prove my point. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.520 And I remember having this moment where it's just like ooh, right, 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:53.920 like this part of me is being revealed. He had 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.640 not seen this part of me before writing that part 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.760 of me had been set aside. I'd talk to right 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.200 because we want to show up in this way we're 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:08.039 likable and lovable. And you know, I still at that time, 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:11.239 I think, wanted to be easy going and I wore 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.120 the cool girl persona for a long time. And I 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.360 remember this moment that really stands out to me, where 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:22.000 this part of me that felt so unbecoming and was 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.480 worried that he was going to not want to be 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.280 in the relationship anymore because this part had come forward. 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:35.160 It was like him seeing me through that moment felt 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.920 really like there was a shift that took place there. 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.520 And even though we don't have to get into the 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.520 whole story, I tell the story a lot on shows, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:45.280 but I think the point that I want to make 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.160 about this was that there was a data point that 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.320 got exchanged in that moment where this part of myself 0:07:53.360 --> 0:07:57.320 that I was judgmental love or critical of, ashamed of, 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.360 was revealed, and in it, this person across from me 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.120 was able to walk alongside of me and not run 0:08:05.160 --> 0:08:08.680 away from it, or not criticize it or not reject it, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:12.560 was able to get curious about that part, to understand 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:15.440 that we make sense with context if we're willing to dig, 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:20.400 and not that context excuses behavior, but relationally, we're going 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.440 to need to excavate some things and not expect each 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:27.280 other to be quote unquote perfect and show up in 0:08:27.320 --> 0:08:32.320 this perfectly packaged way. And so that moment felt like 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:37.480 a moment where a pivot took place of Oh, I 0:08:37.520 --> 0:08:40.560 revealed this part and it didn't scare you away. It 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:44.319 was something that you actually came closer to learning more 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.400 about and understanding more about, and that really shifted something 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:47.680 for me. 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:50.320 Would you say that that part of you was coming 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:50.960 from a wound? 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:51.680 For sure? 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:54.400 So so much of your work has to do with 0:08:54.480 --> 0:08:58.680 these five wounds. I kind of want to give everybody 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:00.880 the roadmap before we really dig in. You say that 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.800 almost everyone is walking around with one of these five? 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:05.160 Will you share with those five? 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:08.319 Are sure one of them, many of them, sometimes all 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.880 five of them? So just to neutralize, right, so you 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:13.720 don't have to be one. You don't have to be one. 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.800 I think we will have a dominant one or two. 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.000 I have a worthiness wound and a safety wound, and 0:09:20.280 --> 0:09:23.560 a trust one will creep in there. Sometimes the five 0:09:23.600 --> 0:09:28.720 are worthiness, belonging, prioritization, trust, and safety. And yeah, in 0:09:28.760 --> 0:09:33.319 that example, my safety wound was activated. And I'll give 0:09:33.360 --> 0:09:35.800 you a little context so that it makes sense. I 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:37.760 don't know what Connor and I were fighting about, but 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:40.920 my assumption is that we disagreed on something because I 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:43.400 needed to be right in that moment. I needed to 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.920 show him and prove to him that he was wrong 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.120 and I needed to really prove my point and get 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:51.840 that across. And he actually had surrendered at some point 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.440 in the conflict where he's like, Okay, I get it. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:57.400 I understand. I didn't stop, and I needed to be 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:02.480 right because being right was safety for me. I grew 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:04.679 up if my parents went through a nine year divorce 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:06.800 process started when I was in first grade. There was 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:12.880 a lot of chaos and high conflict, paranoia, gaslighting, manipulation, 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.959 psychological abuse that was happening, and I was the observer 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.480 of it. I'm an only child, and I just you know, 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.000 was watching it back and forth back and forth, and 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.120 the manipulation, gaslighting, psychological abuse was towards my mom. And 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:30.400 as a little girl watching this go down, how I 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:32.920 made sense of it was that if you are right, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.920 which my dad was masterful at being right, if you 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:40.520 are right, then you are safe, and if you're not right, 0:10:40.800 --> 0:10:43.240 then you are not safe. Because I saw what that 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:45.840 did to my mom. I saw what it looked like 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:48.080 to not be able to prove your point, to not 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:50.000 be able to explain yourself, to not be able to 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.320 track all the details and not miss a beat. I 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:56.080 saw what it did. And so from my little human position, 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.560 I had decided really early on that being right, improving 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.600 your point was where safety resided, and not being able 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.760 to do that was the absence of safety. So fast 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:12.440 forward into romantic relationships, and here's this moment again. I 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:14.520 can't I have no clue what we're fighting about, but 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.000 here's this moment where there is a disagreement. My guess 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:20.680 is there's a disagreement about something specific, right, some detail, 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:24.400 and automatically right, my nervous system that's constantly scanning for 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.200 every data point that's being exchanged here picks up on Wait, 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:31.040 you're trying to tell me something that is not true, 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:34.160 where you're trying to disagree with something that I saw happen, 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:36.040 and so now I need to go into a place 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:37.240 of self protection. 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.160 And nine year old Vienna shows up. 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:40.600 That's right. 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:42.920 So I have this thing I do when I'm in 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.120 relationship with somebody, and it's only when we're in like 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:49.440 true relationship. I keep a child, like a children's photo 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:51.839 of them on my phone in their contact so when 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:55.319 they call me, it's the five, six, seven year old 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:59.440 version of them. And I do it because when I 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:03.480 am so frustrated or angry, I remind myself that that's 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.959 the person showing up, and then I'm a little bit kinder. 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:09.800 But I do think it's very interesting that we all 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:12.760 bring our like nine year old selves to the equation constantly. 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:16.720 Yeah, these younger when we have ruptures around the wounding 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.440 or traumas that we experience, or these fragmented parts of us, 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:23.319 you know that it happens, there's a fragmentation that happens, 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.240 and so this younger part of ourselves will show up. 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:26.680 You know. 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.680 When I don't encourage you to ask your partner this 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.760 in a heated moment, but I very lovingly and compassionately 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:37.560 inquire with you the listener, when you think about these 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:41.040 moments where you become super activated and you go into 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:45.120 this space a fight flight, freeze or fawn, how old 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:49.040 you feel, you know, when I am really triggered, when 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.599 I'm activated, when I am no longer anchored and grounded 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:56.160 in my place, I don't feel like a forty year 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:56.800 old woman. 0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:58.760 No, I feel like I'm in fifth grade. 0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:01.200 Yeah, you know, I'm either a ten or even younger 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:03.960 than that. Right, It's like these really younger parts that 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.920 are trying to figure out how to you know, navigate 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:14.520 this moment. And it's not this wise anchored adult self 0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:17.160 who's in the room. And so I love that you 0:13:17.400 --> 0:13:21.960 keep that younger picture and it's a reminder and not 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:26.760 an excuse, but a reminder that, yeah, these these younger 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:30.120 experiences are present with us in this moment, right, because 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:33.200 if there is a big activation that's happening, as they 0:13:33.240 --> 0:13:37.280 often say, if it is hysterical, it's historical. Yeah, that's 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:39.240 a great saying. Yeah. 0:13:39.400 --> 0:13:41.040 I was going to ask you how you can figure 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.120 out what your wound is, but I was on your 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:45.319 website and you have this amazing quiz that you can 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:48.040 take it's like five minutes long, and it tells you 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.760 what your dominant wound is. Your mind came up as worthiness. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:53.680 What you're saying is your dominant one. 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:54.120 So one of them. 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.280 So how does a worthiness wound in particular show up 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:58.800 in dating a relationship? 0:13:58.880 --> 0:14:04.880 Totally? Okay, So to all my perfectionist pleasers performers out there, 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.040 you know this is one because a worthiness wound often 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:14.120 originates because there were conditions to love or connection or presence. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:19.520 So think straight a's or performing well on the field, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:23.040 getting the hat trick or becoming being the comic relief 0:14:23.040 --> 0:14:26.880 in the family in order to get connection, validation, attention, praise, 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.200 et cetera. You know, a lot of times there are 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:31.640 conditions to our love. I need you to be X, 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:33.800 y and Z in order to get me as your 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:37.080 parent or as your caretaker, to be connected or loving 0:14:37.200 --> 0:14:41.320 or present with you. And so yeah, fast forward. It 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.400 still shows up a lot of times in that way. So, 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.120 oh gosh, in the dating space, the worthiness wound, I 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.080 think it blends sometimes into other wounds too. But this 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.560 idea of needing to be perfect, whatever that means to you, 0:14:57.640 --> 0:14:59.680 but needing to be perfect in order to be chosen 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:03.120 needing to be XYZ fill in the blank with whatever 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:06.440 it is. But it's a lot of abandoning what is 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.480 actually true for us. It's not believing that we are 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.440 put it simply right, It's like that we're not worthy 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:18.880 or valuable without needing to fill some role of perfection, 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:24.800 of pleasing, of performing for the other person. And yeah, 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:29.920 it's a quick way to move really far away from yourself. 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:34.840 I think that for time's sake, trust and safety. I 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.960 can kind of imagine how that shows up. How does 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:39.080 belonging show up? 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:44.440 So my work starts at looking at the family of origin. 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:49.040 So I'm well aware that we have society and media 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.560 and school and teachers and coaches, all of that, friends, friends' 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.040 parents that will influence and shape some of this as well. 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.520 But I look at the family of origin. That's the 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:03.120 lens through which I see all of us to begin. 0:16:03.680 --> 0:16:07.120 And so when I look at the family of origin 0:16:07.280 --> 0:16:10.520 and the belonging wound, a lot of families have this 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.600 mantra almost of this is who we are, you know, 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.800 this is who we are, this is what we believe, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.400 this is how we operate in the world. And so 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.960 you either you need to be like us or else. 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:25.480 So a lot of times the black sheep of the 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:31.120 family will experience this, and I love there's Gobormante talks 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:39.680 about how authenticity and attachment are our two lifelines as 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:45.800 little humans in the world, but when attachment is at risk, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:50.360 we will trade authenticity every single time as children because 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:54.200 you must, right, we have to. We need a home, 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.760 we need food, we need some type of connection, and 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:01.960 so we don't know how to tolerate being who we 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.520 are at the risk of losing someone else, especially a 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.480 family member, right at the beginning. And sometimes we'll see 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.720 a rebellion take place at some point, but early early on, 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.520 if you have to choose between attachment, quote unquote attachment 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:21.600 or authenticity, you're going to choose attachment each time. 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.440 Which wound creates the most loneliness? 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:42.360 Oh, that's a great question. I have never thought about 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:50.359 it that way before. I think they must all probably 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:56.200 have really brush up against that in their own ways. 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.960 I think about a trust wound where you're constantly waiting 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:04.240 for something to go wrong, for a lie, for deceit, 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.320 for betrayal to happen. You're expecting that somewhere, and how 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.199 lonely that must be. I think about a prioritization wound 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:13.320 and how you feel deprioritized where the most important people 0:18:13.320 --> 0:18:17.240 in your life are choosing something other than you chronically, 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.360 and how lonely that must feel. I think about worthiness 0:18:20.440 --> 0:18:23.800 and belonging and how when you are trading who you 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:25.879 are to try to fit in or to try to 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:31.520 be accepted and loved and valued, that to even get 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:36.440 that but it's not actually you that that must feel 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:39.200 lonely to you, know, like all of them, I think 0:18:39.240 --> 0:18:46.280 will make a really good case for being quite lonely. Yeah, 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:48.320 I really do. I think all of them in their 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.800 own way. And the thing about wounds is that it's 0:18:50.920 --> 0:18:56.480 how each person internalizes the experience. So it's not that, oh, 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:00.919 if you had let's say your father abandoned you, that 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:05.120 doesn't slot you into a worthiness wound automatically, right, It's 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:10.760 like how you experience that thing. So for one person, 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:14.400 that experience might slot into a worthiness wound, and the 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:20.080 narrative might be I am not worthy because you left 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:22.320 and you didn't think I was good enough to stick around. 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:25.399 For somebody else, that might slot in as a trust wound. 0:19:25.560 --> 0:19:29.040 The most important people in my life will leave me 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.000 and abandon me, and I can't trust those people to stay. 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.960 So when I think about it through that lens, I think, okay, yeah, 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:41.400 it's how does this experience make each individual person feel lonely? 0:19:41.840 --> 0:19:42.640 My guess would be. 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:48.760 All of them? Yeah, yeah, you said something earlier about 0:19:48.920 --> 0:19:52.400 you had a great phrase. You either are opposing or 0:19:52.600 --> 0:19:55.600 what is repeating? So opposing or repeating? And it made 0:19:55.640 --> 0:19:58.440 me think. My mom always says when I'm dating, don't 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.120 look at the guy, just wipe him over and look 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:06.520 at his father, which is triggering for me. But I 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:09.240 get what she's saying, and you righte that some of 0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:12.800 us become our parents and others become the exact opposite 0:20:12.800 --> 0:20:16.280 of our parents. How do we choose? How does that happen? 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.640 Yeah, and I think lovingly to your mom, I don't 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:21.240 know that I would fully agree with it, because it 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.840 really depends on the person's journey from there. You know, 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:28.720 if we look at our parents and then just assume 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:32.560 that we are simply the extension of them, or that 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.920 we'll get a look into our future by looking at them, 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.920 I think it falls short and doesn't give us enough 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:45.359 credit for the work that many people do. Okay, we 0:20:45.480 --> 0:20:49.040 all know the path of repetition it's sort of the oh, 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:52.480 my father was an alcoholic and now I have dated 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.120 Now I'm dating an alcoholic. Or maybe it's not even 0:20:55.119 --> 0:20:57.560 apples to apples, like my father was an alcoholic, and 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:02.320 now I'm dating somebody who is a work centric, right, 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:05.439 and so I'm still deprioritized or I still don't feel 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.639 worthy in this relationship. But I'll give an example of 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.240 the path of opposition when it comes to conflicts. For example, 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.160 So maybe you grow up in your family and it's 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.840 high conflict, and conflict is scary. Maybe there's even abuse, 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.879 but it's not a it's it's high tempers. You are like, 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:25.800 I do not want to be around this. This is 0:21:25.840 --> 0:21:28.040 scary to my nervous system. I don't like it at all. 0:21:29.359 --> 0:21:32.200 So you move through life and somewhere along the way 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.760 you decide, I'm never going to do that again. You know, 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:36.800 I don't. I don't want to engage in conflict that way. 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:39.119 That's that's not a good way to be. And so 0:21:39.320 --> 0:21:43.120 you swing that pendulum, and now you move through life 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:47.560 not engaging in conflict. Right now from the outside looking in, 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:51.960 that might objectively look much better to the outside world. 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:54.720 You started in a place that was dangerous. That was 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:58.760 not Oh gosh, high conflict, high tempers, really scary, And 0:21:58.800 --> 0:22:02.240 now you don't have conflict. This amazing, Okay, great, Except 0:22:02.280 --> 0:22:04.840 if we get a little more curious and we start 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.240 to peel back some of those layers, what we maybe 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.120 see here is that this person who it doesn't enter 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:14.280 into conflict anymore and has a fairly peaceful life is 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:17.720 never getting a chance to say what they need to say. 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:22.120 They're never getting a chance to be expressed. They are 0:22:22.280 --> 0:22:26.280 fearful of what is attached to their story and experience 0:22:26.320 --> 0:22:28.960 of what conflict is. So they've swung the pendulum to 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:30.960 say I want to move through life this way because 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.560 this way seems safer and better. And arguably maybe it 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:41.000 is safer. But is it, Betters, Has it moved you 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:46.560 to a place where you feel healthy, where you feel 0:22:46.840 --> 0:22:49.399 like you get to say what you need to say 0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.400 and have that be something that is heard and understood. 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:56.680 It skips over something really important. The path of integration 0:22:56.840 --> 0:23:00.239 is something I talk about in the book, and I 0:23:00.280 --> 0:23:02.280 want people to be aware of the ways in which 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:05.359 they do swing the pendulum. Oh my gosh, I never 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:08.439 want that. I'll never be like that. I'll never recreate that, 0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:10.920 and then we work so hard to do the opposite 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.120 because we think the opposite is better than the thing 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.760 that hurt us or harmed us in the first place. 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:21.920 But if you walk through life and relationship with sort 0:23:21.920 --> 0:23:26.280 of those horse blinders around you around your eyes, I 0:23:26.320 --> 0:23:30.160 think we often lead ourselves just to a new position 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:33.920 that isn't exactly what we want either. Because we all 0:23:33.960 --> 0:23:37.840 know that communication is vital in relationships. We all know 0:23:37.960 --> 0:23:42.200 that to be authentically expressed in relationship is important. We 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.159 know that the healing part of this is not the 0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:49.960 avoidance of hard conversations. It's the ability to have a 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.480 hard conversation and to trust the other person across from 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:55.840