1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. I am 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: a very spoiled child. So I recently got the chance 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: to chat with photographer Andrew Feiler, who has a new 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: book out titled A Better Life for Their Children Julius 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: Rosenwald Book or T Washington and the four thousand, nine 8 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: hundred seventy eight Schools That Changed America. And I have 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 1: actually been wanting to talk about the Rosenwald Schools for 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,480 Speaker 1: a while, so I was very excited about Andrew's book, 11 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: particularly because it is as beautiful as it is moving 12 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: and informative. Yeah. I think you started talking about wanting 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: to do an episode on them way back when we 14 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: did the Sears History interview. That was years ago, Yes, 15 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,760 Speaker 1: and we had Jerry Hancock on. I wanted to do it, 16 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: but I never felt like I had like the right 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: entry point. And then Andrew's book happened and made it easy. Well, 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: and this is not Andrew's first book. His previous book 19 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: also has a historical theme. It's titled without regard to Sex, race, 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: or Color, The Past Present, and Future of One historically 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: Black College. This new book has also become an exhibit 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: at the National Center for Civil and Human Rights in Atlanta, 23 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: and it will tour after it finishes there at the 24 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: end of this year. Yeah, we'll talk about that a 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: bit during the interview. So let's jump right into that, 26 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: where Andrew shares how he ended up a photographer, and 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: specifically a photographer documenting and writing about history. First of all, Andrew, 28 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. Great to 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: be with you. Thank you for having me. What a 30 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: delight for me. I feel so spoiled. Um. The primary 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: reason you're here today is so we can talk about 32 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:53,280 Speaker 1: your latest book. But this is not your first book, 33 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: so to do the runway to it, I w want 34 00:01:57,080 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: to make sure we talk about your first book, which 35 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,559 Speaker 1: was without regard to sex, race, or color, the Past, Present, 36 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: and Future of One Historically Black College, and that covers 37 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: the history of Morris Brown. So before we get into 38 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: the newest, Um, I would like for you to tell 39 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: us your story how you started pursuing a career in 40 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: photography and how you ended up focusing your lens on 41 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: the subjects you have, particularly history and particularly black history. 42 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: So in two thousand and eight, I started down a 43 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 1: path that was four and a half very difficult years. 44 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: I had taken over a family real estate business in 45 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: two thousand two and my dad had gotten sick. Two 46 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: thousand eight, we went away from my parents fiftieth wedding 47 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: anniversary at another business partner in the business. We got 48 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: back in the next day. My business partner died. Thirteen 49 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: days later, my brother was diagnosed with a truly life 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: threatening bone cancer. Mercifully he has he is now thirteen 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: years cancer free, but that was not a given at 52 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: the time. Soon after that my father's health complete, they collapsed, 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: and then the real estate world imploded in the Great Recession, 54 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 1: and I spent three years and four months doing real 55 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: estate workouts. And collectively, those are the types of experiences 56 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: that caused you to say, what do you want to 57 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: do the rest of your life? And so um I 58 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: started down the path in the midst of this period 59 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: of my time of my life. I've been a serious 60 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: photographer most of my life, and I started on this 61 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 1: path of taking my work more seriously and mercifully getting 62 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: taken more seriously. And one of the things that you 63 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: have to do in in that process is figure out 64 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: what is your voice as a photographer, what is your 65 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: voice as an artist? Well, I've been a civic activist 66 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: my entire life as well. I've founded more than a 67 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: dozen civic initiatives. I serve on a number of boards 68 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: of not for profits. I have been an active advisor 69 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: for many years to a number of elected officials and 70 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: political candidates. And what I found is, I really, as 71 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: I started to explore this, uh my photography more diligently, 72 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: is that my photographic voice was my civic voice. And 73 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: I was working on a body of work on abandoned 74 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 1: public school spaces in the South, because an abandoned public 75 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: school is a story of demographics, right flight gentrification. When 76 00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: Mars Brown College filed for bankruptcy, and so I thought, 77 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, this is a really important story. It has race, 78 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: it's an historically bought college. It has religion. Mars Brown 79 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 1: College was found under the auspices of the Amy Church. 80 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: It has class because it was a college that had 81 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: become one that was primarily focused on the children of 82 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 1: families of lesser means. And that story, that multilayered story, 83 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: becomes my first book. But it was also what my 84 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: process is to read and shoot and shooting and read, 85 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: and the reading and forms of shooting and the shooting 86 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,479 Speaker 1: and forms of reading. And there was tooth moments that 87 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: really shaped that project. One was when I came across 88 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,040 Speaker 1: the statistic yeah that there were originally about a hundred 89 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: and twenty historically black colleges in America. We were down 90 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: to about a hundred. Those were hundred colleges are three 91 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: percent of colleges in America. They are more than ten 92 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: percent of African Americans who go to college, more than 93 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: twenty five percent of African Americans who earned degrees. And 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: that replants this story in the midst of this central 95 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: question we have in our culture today, what is how 96 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,320 Speaker 1: do we create on ramps to the American middle classes? 97 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: And I studied that question, I realized I stumbled on 98 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: this much broader American narrative. Education has been the backbone 99 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: of the American dream since before there was the United 100 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,120 Speaker 1: States of America. The first taxpayer funded school is founded 101 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: in Deadham, Massachusetts, in sixteen forty four. The Land Grant 102 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,719 Speaker 1: College Act, which creates colleges all across America, has created 103 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty two. Historically black colleges and the decades 104 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: after the Civil War, Rosenwald Schools. In the early decades 105 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century, the education provisions of the g 106 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 1: HI Bill transform America from relatively poor to relatively prosperous. 107 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board of Education is one of the highlights 108 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: of the Civil rights movement. What are we talking about today, 109 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: crushing levels of student deck, college affordability, college access. It's 110 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: more than three hundred and seventy five year narrative arc 111 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: uh that drives American history is a tradition at risk. 112 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: And that became the message in this first book. And 113 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: then how did the Rosenwald Schools get on your radar? 114 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: So I had just turned in my first book to 115 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:35,239 Speaker 1: my publisher. Um it was this was early two thousand fifteen. 116 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,359 Speaker 1: That book comes out at the end of two thousand fifteen. 117 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: And in February of two thousand fifteen, I found myself 118 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,119 Speaker 1: at lunch with a woman named Jennie Cyriac. And Jennie 119 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: had originated the role of African American Heritage specialist at 120 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: the Georgia State Historic Preservation Office. And she's the first 121 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: person to tell me about rosen Wald Schools. And I 122 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:55,359 Speaker 1: was shocked. I am a fifth generation Jewish Georgian. I 123 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: have been a progressive activist my entire life. The pillars 124 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: of this story Southern Jewish progressive activist or the pillars 125 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: of my life. How could I've never heard of Rosenwald Schools? 126 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: So I come home and I google Rosenwald Schools, and 127 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: I find that there's a couple of academic books on 128 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: the topic. But there was no comprehensive photographic account of 129 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 1: this story. And I set out to do exactly that. 130 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: So for our listeners to lay the groundwork, will you 131 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: tell us just about the Rosenwald Schools and what their 132 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: purpose was and how they got set up. So Julius 133 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 1: Rosenwald is born to Jewish immigrants who had fled religious 134 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:34,679 Speaker 1: persecution in Germany. He grows up in Springfield, Illinois, across 135 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: the street from Abraham Lincoln's home. He rises to become 136 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: the president of Sears, Roebuck and Company, and with innovations 137 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: like Satisfaction Guaranteed or Your Money Back, he turned Sears 138 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 1: into the world's largest retailer of its era. And he 139 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: becomes one of the earliest and greatest philanthropists in American history. 140 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: And his cause is what later becomes known as civil rights. 141 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: Booker T. Washington, born into slavery and Virginia, goes to 142 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,080 Speaker 1: Hampton College in Virginia, becomes an educator and is the 143 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: founding principle of the historically black college in Alabama now 144 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: and then as Tuskegee Institute. And the two men meet 145 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: in nineteen eleven. Would you have to remember is at 146 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: nineteen eleven is before the Great Migration, which doesn't begin 147 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: until later that decade. So of African Americans live in 148 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: the South, and public schools for African Americans are mostly shocks, 149 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: with a small fraction of the funding provided to the 150 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: education of white children. Many jurisdictions do not even have 151 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: public schools for African Americans. Booker T. Washington asks Julius 152 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: Rosenwald to join the board of Tuskegeeon later in nineteen eleven. 153 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: He agrees, but the two men keep talking what can 154 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 1: we do together? And they focus on this idea of 155 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 1: public schools for African Americans and the genius there's genius 156 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:53,359 Speaker 1: in this program. They reach out to the black communities 157 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: of the South and they say, we want you to 158 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: be a full partner in your progress. So you must 159 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: contribute to a school. If you will contribute to a school, 160 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: and we will count as your contribution cash, land, materialists, 161 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: or labor. And if you will reach out to the 162 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 1: school board, the white school board, because we want to 163 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: create deliberate black white dialogue as a foundation for future progress. 164 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: And these have to be public schools, so the White 165 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: school board, we welcome their contributions. But what they have 166 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: to do is agree to own maintenance staff the school, 167 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 1: pay for the teachers. You do those things, Julius Rosenwald 168 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: will make a substantial contribution to school construction. And from 169 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve to nineteen thirty seven, this program builds four thousand, 170 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: nine hundred and seventy eight schools across fifteen southern and 171 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 1: border states and the result is transformative. One thing that's 172 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: interesting in case people do not know the timeline of 173 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: Booker T. Washington's life. He died not that long after 174 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: the two men met, like less than four years after 175 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: they met, but still he was very clearly influential. And 176 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 1: on this whole project, can you talk about how Julius 177 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: Rosenwald continued kind of the dialogue after his partner in 178 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: this project was no longer there. Yes, So Julius Rose 179 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: want a book Or T. Washington shared two important values. 180 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: Julius Rosenwald was deeply committed to America because he saw 181 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: America as a safe haven from anti Semitism, and he 182 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: saw that America weakened by its treatment of African Americans. 183 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 1: Booker T. Washington, of course, was dedicated to the uplift 184 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: of African Americans, and they also shared a commitment to 185 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: self help. And it was book Or T. Washington who 186 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: understood that education was the path forward and that what 187 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: was missing in the panoplay of education was small school houses. 188 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: Small because everybody they were not busses for these school houses, 189 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 1: and they had to be able to walk to these schools, 190 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: and so many of these schools, most of these schools, 191 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: particularly the early years of the program, are very small, 192 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: and so they create this program together. But it's enormously successful, 193 00:11:02,559 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: and Julius Rosenwald commits to continuing the program even after 194 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: the death of Booker T. Washington, his partner in this venture. 195 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: It's important to note that the relationship between Julius Rosenwald 196 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: and Booker T. Washington is one of the earliest collaborations 197 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: between Jews and African Americans, and there is a direct 198 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: connection between their collaboration, their friendship and Rabbi Abraham Josh 199 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: wad Heschel walking with doctor King, who famously says of 200 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: that experience of walking with doctor King that had felt 201 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: like his feet were praying. And what happened in Georgia 202 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: earlier this year when Raphael Warnact and John ass Off 203 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:51,840 Speaker 1: cris crossed this state together for two months and clearly 204 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: built not just a political alliance but a deep personal friendship. 205 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: That relationship and which Georgia sends its first African American senator, 206 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: its first Jewish senator to the United States Senate. That 207 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: relationship between John Assoff and Rafael Warnock stands on the 208 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: shoulders of the relationship the friendship between Julius Rosenwald and 209 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: Bucker T. Washington. You are, as you said, a photographer, 210 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: But this book has a lot of writing. Every photograph 211 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: comes with a story. Was that always your intention? It 212 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: was not. That was actually new and uh yeah, I 213 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 1: can what happened. So look, I knew this was an 214 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: extraordinary story. The question is how do you tell the 215 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: story visually? And I started out with exterior images one 216 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: to three teacher schools, white small, white collaborate buildings to 217 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: the end of the program, there's one two and three 218 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,760 Speaker 1: story red brick buildings, but that story was incomplete. Because 219 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 1: of the original four thousand, nine seventy schools, there is 220 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,479 Speaker 1: about five hundred left. Only half of those have been restored, 221 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: and so many of these schools are at risk of collapse. 222 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: There's an inherent component of this story, which is the 223 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: plea for preservation. These spaces are the locus of history 224 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: and memory, and so I needed to tell the adaptive 225 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: reuse story and the preservation narrative. And suddenly I need 226 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: I need to get inside, and suddenly I need permission. 227 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: And once you need permission, you gotta start talking to people. 228 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: And that's when I met these extraordinary people, former students, 229 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,679 Speaker 1: former teachers, his preservationist historians that are trying to save 230 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:35,319 Speaker 1: these structures, and I end up telling their narratives through portraits. 231 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: But in the course of meeting all these people and 232 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: doing as I said earlier, my process is to shoot 233 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: and read and read and shoot, and the reading and 234 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,439 Speaker 1: forms of shooting and the shooting and forms of reading. 235 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: And I came across so many incredible stories that indeed 236 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 1: I felt compelled to write a short story that goes 237 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: with every image, or in some cases pairs of images. 238 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: I found Rosenwald Schools connected to the Trail of Tears, 239 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: to the Great Migration, to the Tuskegee steph a Study, 240 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: to the story of the Tuskegee Airman, to the litigation 241 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: of Brown v. Board embezzlement, murder, and those stories are 242 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: told in the prose compliments. So this is actually a 243 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: hybrid body of work. It's both images and stories that 244 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: go together. Did you ever anticipate that you were going 245 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: to become a writer and historian in addition to this 246 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: photography career that you would switched to, Well, it's interesting, 247 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: Actually I haven't. I've had interest in history my entire life. 248 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: I took My undergraduate degree is actually economics, but I 249 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: took a lot of history classes in college. Actually have 250 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: to graduate degrees. One's an MBA, but one is actually 251 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: a modern history degree, and so the history component of 252 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: it came naturally to me. But I'm certainly never expected 253 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: to be writing sixteen thousand words of stories, um. But 254 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: the stories are so extraordinary and so powerful that it 255 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: was a joy to have that as part of this process. 256 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: This book is one that right from the opening is 257 00:15:10,840 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: very compelling, and one of the things that's so compelling 258 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: is that there's an introduction by John Lewis, who, of 259 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: course being in Atlanta hero aside from just his civil 260 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 1: rights work, which is amazing, and of itself being part 261 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: of the fabric of Atlanta. I get choked up just 262 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: talking about absolutely one of the few people I've ever 263 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: met that I just burst into tears the second I 264 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: met him. Um, will you talk about how that came 265 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: to be that you got to heaven be part of 266 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: this and that beautiful portrait that you made of him? 267 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: Thank you? Um. So I have to mes set a 268 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: little bit of context. This program transforms America. There are 269 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 1: two economists in the Federal Reserve Bank or Chicago who 270 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: have done five studies of Rosenwald Schools. With their data 271 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: shows is it prior to World War One there was 272 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: a large and persistent black white education gap in the 273 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: South and that cap closes precipitously between World War One 274 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: and World War Two. And the single greatest driver in 275 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: that achievement is Rose World Schools. But the other major 276 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: impact of this program is that many of the leaders 277 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: and foot soldiers of the movement come through these schools. 278 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: Maya Angelou Medgar Evers, multiple members of the Little Rock 279 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: Nine who integrate Little Rock Central High School, and Congressman 280 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: John Lewis all attended Roseenwald Schools. So Congressman Lewis is 281 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: clearly the most prominent along of the roseenmald Schools program. 282 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: Living at the time I was working on this project. 283 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: I grew up in Savannah. I left the South after 284 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: high school, and bouncing around the world for fifteen years, 285 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: decided it was finally safe to come back to the South. 286 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: South had grown up in my absence. I came back. 287 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: I had been I was a constituent of Congressman Lewis 288 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: Is for twenty five years. I lived in the fifth 289 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: Congressional District the entire time I've been in Atlanta, and 290 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 1: so I reached out to Congressman Lewis and I asked 291 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: him if he would contribute an introduction to this book. 292 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: And he said, you know, I'm not sure I'm comfortable 293 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: writing the history of Rosenwald Schools. I just knew I 294 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: went to school there, I said, Congressman Lewis. There are 295 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,560 Speaker 1: three other essays in this book, won by Genie Syriac 296 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: at the State Historic Preservation Office. One by Brent Leggs, 297 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: who heads up the African American Cultural Heritage Action funded 298 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 1: the National Trust for Historic Preservation, which is focused on 299 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: African American preservation. One by me, we've got the history covered. 300 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: What I want you to do is what only you 301 00:17:19,560 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: can do. Bring us into that classroom. What was it 302 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: like to go to school there? What role did education 303 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: play in your life? And he said, oh, I can 304 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: do that. And so I met with Congressman Lewis in 305 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: his office. This round table at the center of his 306 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: office is out there for several hours with him as 307 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: we re find the introduction. This was October and I 308 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 1: had gotten into his eyes. Staff had let me into 309 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: his office in advance and had set up my lights. 310 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,439 Speaker 1: And at the end of this session he put on 311 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: his jacket for me to take his portrait, and there's 312 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: this cancer awareness ribbon on his lapel and he said, 313 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,560 Speaker 1: should I take this off? I said, Congressman Lewis, I 314 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: want the authentic you, and that is the authentic you 315 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 1: will leave it on. And it was exactly sixty days 316 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: later that he went public with his cancer diagnosis. So 317 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: his contribution to the forward to this book is one 318 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: of the last public acts the Congressman Lewis contributed, and 319 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: he also praises your work in it, So that's got 320 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,639 Speaker 1: to feel pretty amazing. You know, he's an extraordinary person, 321 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: and it was one of the great sort of side 322 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: And I didn't start this project to have the opportunity 323 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: to spend an afternoon with Congressman Lewis in his office 324 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: sharing our experiences. What an extraordinary gift from my artistic 325 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: journey to have shared this experience with Congressman Lewis. Amazing. Um, 326 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,439 Speaker 1: that might be the answer, But I'm curious what was 327 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: the most unexpected or surprising aspect of working on this project. 328 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: You took a lot of journeys and met a lot 329 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: of people and saw a lot of things that you 330 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: probably didn't anticipate. Yeah, I did. So this project took 331 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: me three and a half years. I drove twenty five 332 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: thousand miles across all fifteen of the program states. And 333 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: I think there were two things that really jumped out 334 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: of me. To answer your question, one of them is 335 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: I I've been a fan of audiobooks for a long time, 336 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: and as I was on I did this twenty five 337 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: thousand miles almost entirely by myself, and I listened to 338 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: audio books as I was driving across the South, and 339 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: I listened to Civil Rights history. I listened to the 340 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: entire Tailor Branch trilogy on the Civil Rights Movement. I 341 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: listened to an entire book on letter from Birmingham Jail. 342 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 1: I listened to Kareem Abdul Jabbar's book on the Harlem Renaissance. 343 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: Two of the people whose portraits I shot in this 344 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: book have memoirs. I listened to their they were on audiobook. 345 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,119 Speaker 1: I listened to those memories. And what an extraordinary compliment 346 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,479 Speaker 1: to this journey to be out in the Mississippi Delta 347 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: listening to civil rights history. So that was really a 348 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: beautiful compliment to this entire story. The other was that 349 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: throughout this journey I continued to meet these extraordinary individuals 350 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: who were former students, former teachers, the preservationists that are 351 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: trying to save these schools in their community. And they 352 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:26,159 Speaker 1: were so warm and so welcoming and so excited about 353 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 1: being part of this project, so excited that I was 354 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: here to help share this history they knew was important 355 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: and they were concerned was going to be lost. And 356 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: that embrace of this sort of broad Rosenwald school community 357 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: was unexpected and an incredible joy. I want to talk 358 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: for a second about the structure of the book, because 359 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: you break it out in terms of like the timeline, 360 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 1: but that timeline is also connected to kind of expansion 361 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: and growth of the program, so that the footprint of 362 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: it shifts in three years. Well do you talk about 363 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 1: those three phases that you cover and kind of just 364 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: how this program went from its initial phase to becoming 365 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: a much bigger, broader project. So the initiative begins uh 366 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: In with a pilot of six schools, all built close 367 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: to Tuskegee, where Booker T. Washington and his team can 368 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: keep an eye on the program. And I'm going to 369 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: digress here for a second to tell you one story 370 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: that because it's it's really an important component of how 371 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: this story unfolds. Booker T. Washington has photographs made of 372 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,840 Speaker 1: the students and teachers standing in front of their schools, 373 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 1: carrying the hopes and dreams of their communities, and he 374 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: sends them to Julia's Rosenwald, who writes back that he 375 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: has so moved that he is committing to expand the program. 376 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: Almost all of my work prior to this work has 377 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: been in color this body of work is entirely in 378 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: black and white and horrors zong in homage to those 379 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: images of students and teachers and standing in front of 380 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,639 Speaker 1: their schools who become that This becomes part of the 381 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 1: visual history and the visual language of this program. So 382 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 1: the program is run out of Tuskegee starting in nineteen twelve. 383 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: Book of Two Washington dies in nineteen fifteen. The program 384 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: continues to be run out of Tuskegee, but it's starting 385 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: to explode, and it's reaching across more and more Southern states, 386 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: and it simply gets to a point where it has 387 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: outstripped the ability of the team at Tuskegee to manage this. Meanwhile, 388 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: Julius Rosenwald's philanthropy is becoming much more expansive, and so 389 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,719 Speaker 1: in the early years of this program he's writing checks. 390 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: But in nineteen seventeen he actually creates the Rosenwald Fund, 391 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: and so in nineteen twenty they actually open an office 392 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: to manage the Rosenwald Schools program in Nashville. So that 393 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: first phase, what I call the Tuskegee phase, is from 394 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve to nineteen twenty, when the programs run out 395 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: of Tuskegee, starting a nine teen twenty. It's now run 396 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: out of Nashville, which by the way, is why the 397 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: archives the Rosenwald Fund are at Fisk University. And it's 398 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: in those years it's run by a man named Samuel Smith, 399 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: that they start moving from building schools to building model schools, 400 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,159 Speaker 1: and they create these plans that they would make available 401 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: for free to anybody who will use them. And so 402 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: to be a Rosenwald school you had to get Rosenwald funding. 403 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: But there are thousands of schools built across America with 404 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: these plants for both blacks and whites that aren't Rosenwald 405 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: schools that are built with Rosenwald plans. And that's what 406 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 1: I call the Nashville phase from nine seven. But in 407 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: nineteen Julius Rosenwald session home, I'm getting older. We need 408 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: to move this from my philanthropy to institutionalizing it a 409 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: little bit more, and so he hires Edwin Embury, who 410 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 1: had been a senior executive the Rockefeller Foundation where Julius 411 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 1: Rosenwald was on the board, and the program is now 412 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: run out of Chicago or Julius rohodenes from World as 413 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: a resident and the program pivots from focusing on building 414 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: schools to focusing on educational outcomes. They create incentives for 415 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 1: libraries and the schools. They create incentives for school buses 416 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: for an adding to the school year. The Risen World 417 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 1: Schools Program formally ends in ninety two with the death 418 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: of Julius Rosenwald and the Fund moves on to focus 419 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: on other things. But in ninety seven President Roosevelt calls 420 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: up Edwyn Embury at the Fund. He says, I'd like 421 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,880 Speaker 1: a Rosenwald School in Merryweather County, Georgia, near his home 422 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: in Warm Springs. And Edwin Abury says back to President 423 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: roose Well, well, Mr. President of the program ended in 424 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty two, but for you will build another school. 425 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,639 Speaker 1: And the very last school is built in Merryweather County. 426 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 1: And what happens is school board agrees to make its contribution, 427 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: the Black community makes its contribution, the w p A 428 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: makes a contribution, and the head of the w p 429 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: A comes into the Oval Office to report to President Roosevelt, 430 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 1: and he reports to President Roosevelt that there are a 431 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: thousand dollars short on the funds they need to build 432 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: this school. And Roosevelt in the Oval Office pulls out 433 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: his checkbook and writes a thousand dollar check to close 434 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: the gap, and later that year, in seven, he presides 435 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: over the dedication ceremony of the Eleanor Roosevelt School in 436 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: Warm Springs, Georgia, the last Rosenwald school, and that school 437 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 1: still exists today. I love it. You mentioned earlier that 438 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,160 Speaker 1: there are not just pictures of the schools, but also 439 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: a lot of portraits in this book, And you have 440 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: portraits of people that are connected to these various schools. 441 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: Some of them are students there. I know there's at 442 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: least one teacher that's in there. Um, will you talk 443 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: about some of those people and maybe a few of 444 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 1: your favorite portraits to show. I'll describe too. So imagine 445 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: you are inside a small, white, clapped one teacher school, 446 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: the k Row School in Sumner County, Tennessee. Over the 447 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: doorway hangs a portrait of Julius Rosenwald that is hung 448 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 1: in that spot since that school opened in and under 449 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: his watchful gaze stand two African American men in their 450 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: late seventies, Frank Brinkley and his brother, Charles Brinkley. Both 451 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: of them attended the k Row School. Both of them 452 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: went to college. Both of them went to graduate school 453 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 1: and both of them become educators. Frank becomes a high 454 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: school math and science teacher, Charles becomes a middle school principal. 455 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 1: They have four sisters, all of whom attended the k 456 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: Row School, all of whom attended college, and the six 457 00:26:54,000 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 1: siblings together have ten children. All ten children went to college. 458 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: That legacy may not have happened without this schoolhouse. Another 459 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 1: photograph which takes place inside the Hopewell School in Bastrop County, Texas. 460 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: The building is in the final stages of restoration. The 461 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 1: modeled walls are primer. You can see the plastic covering 462 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 1: the floors while the it's being painted. The Pop the 463 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: original pop belly stove, is also wrapped in plastic, and 464 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: Sophia and Elroy Williams, in their eighties, stand in this 465 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: space holding up an enormous photograph in this beautiful guilt frame. 466 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: The photograph is from the nineteenth century. It's of Sophia 467 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 1: and Martin McDonald. They were born into slavery, and upon emancipation, 468 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: Martin McDonald starts raising farm animals and he acquires some land. 469 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: He acquires some more land, and eventually he acquires twelve 470 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: hundred acres, and when the Rosenwald Schools program comes to 471 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: Bastrop County tech US in nine, the family donates two 472 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: acres of land for the school. Its first teacher is 473 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: Sophia and Martin McDonald's daughter. One of her students is 474 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: her daughter, Sophia Williams, who at this moment is standing 475 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: on the left holding up this portrait of her grandparents. 476 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 1: Her husband, Elroy Williams, standing on the right holding up 477 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: this portrait of her grandparents, attends a different Rose World 478 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: School in Bastrop County. Both of them go to college, 479 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: both come back to Bastrop County, have an entire career 480 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 1: as educators, and are now in the final stages of 481 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: the restoration of this school and turning it into a 482 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: community center in museum. And I found this story time 483 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: and time again, students becoming teachers, becoming the keepers of 484 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 1: the flame of history and memory in their communities. And 485 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 1: I find that it was an inspiring story to come across. 486 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: Is there a listeners now? I so like a fiend. 487 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,480 Speaker 1: So of course, when I saw the Pleasant Hill Quilters, 488 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: I was obsessed with that picture because we see some 489 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,160 Speaker 1: of their work, but also that's another multi generational photo 490 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 1: of just these women who do these amazing projects related 491 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: to the history of the schools. Well, we talk about 492 00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,239 Speaker 1: them a little bit, so the Pleasant Hill Quilters. This 493 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: is six African American women sitting and standing together inside 494 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: the Pleasant Hill School in Cass County, Texas, and in 495 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: front of them is a quilt. It's in the process 496 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: of being formulated. These women, which includes several Rosenwald School 497 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: former students, several people who have parents who went to 498 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: Rosenwald schools, and one Rosenwald School former teacher, quilted sold 499 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 1: quilts to raise the money to restore it was then 500 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: the dilapidated Pleasant Hill School. They have turned it into 501 00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: a community center and they meet on most Mondays to 502 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: quilt in the school. And I will tell you that, 503 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: beside having spent an absolutely delightful afternoon interviewing them and 504 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: doing this portrait, I commissioned them to make a quilt 505 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: in it's in our home. I love it, Oh treasure totally. 506 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: It's it's magnificent, amazing. You've kind of referenced this already 507 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: that some of these schools certainly still exists today summer historic, 508 00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: but some have been repurposed to be other things like 509 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,560 Speaker 1: the Walnut Senior Center. Um, will you talk about those 510 00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: spaces and how they've evolved, and they still exist in 511 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: a historical sense, but they're also living, active spaces. So 512 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: of the as I said, they're they're of the original 513 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: four thousand v Rosmal schools, about five hundred survived. Only 514 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: half of those have been restored. Very few are still 515 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: in use if educational purposes. Most of them simply outgrew 516 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: that use a long time ago, because the vast majority 517 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: of these structures are small, one to three teacher schools. 518 00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: In fact, of the hundred and five schools that I 519 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: went to, only five are still in use for educational purposes. 520 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: So in order to preserve these schools, they had to 521 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: have been adaptively reused. And that adaptive reuse process is 522 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: an important part of the history. Right. We just discussed 523 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: the pleasant Hill School that's now a community center. Some 524 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: of these schools are church halls, some of them are museums, 525 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: some of them are there's one that it's the offices 526 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:42,000 Speaker 1: of a truck rental company. There's one that's apartments. There 527 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: are many uses, but that adaptive reuse process is an 528 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: important part of how we do historic preservation in America. 529 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: The problem, of course, is that many of these schools 530 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,080 Speaker 1: are not restored. And in fact, I came across schools 531 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: that had collapsed so recently in one case, that were 532 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: surrounded uh The school literally, I found out later had 533 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,760 Speaker 1: been demolished a week before I got there because it 534 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: had been deemed unsafe, and it was surrounded by yellow 535 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: caution tape. And there was another that had collapsed right 536 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: before I got there, and it was surrounded by emergency 537 00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: fencing with keepout signs. And that's what happens when we 538 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: don't take the time to preserve the ability of these 539 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:28,240 Speaker 1: spaces to help share our history, helped communicate our history, 540 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,520 Speaker 1: help bring us in touch with our history. I wonder 541 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: as a photographer what your approaches, both just from your 542 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: mindset as well as your lens of looking at one 543 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: of these places that is still, you know, an active, 544 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,479 Speaker 1: live place versus when you come across a pile of rubble. 545 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: You're documenting in some ways the same history for both 546 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: of them, but they're obviously very different places. How do 547 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: you shift from one to the other and what are 548 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: you looking to capture that's different in one case versus 549 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: the other. I'm looking for moments that have emotional content 550 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:10,120 Speaker 1: that become the vector for bringing people into these experiences. 551 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, eventually, what this body of work is about 552 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: is using photography to bring people into this hidden story 553 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: in American history. So, for example, there are a number 554 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: of schools that I found that were buildings that were 555 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: falling apart. But the Hannah School in Newberry County, South Carolina, 556 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: which looks quite distressed because it is is surrounded by 557 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: a graveyard, and in fact, and in the story I 558 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: tell the I add the detail that it stands on 559 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: dead Fall Road. You cannot make this stuff up right, 560 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: and so that becomes that becomes an important mechanism for 561 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: for sharing this. I was in a number of these 562 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: schools that have been converted into museums. But when I 563 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: was in the war Field School in Tennessee, there's a 564 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: picture of Abraham Lincoln on the wall with a light 565 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 1: angling through these big, large, nine over nine paying windows 566 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,280 Speaker 1: that are an important part of the Roseenwald School architecture. 567 00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: So these this pattern of this light from these infamous windows, 568 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: complementing the picture of Abraham Lincoln on the wall, that 569 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: becomes a moment. I was in the Elmore County Trading 570 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: School in where tomk Alabama and they have a black 571 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: history display. It's fascinating what choices somebody makes when they 572 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,320 Speaker 1: when they are communicating Black history. Right in this case, 573 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:40,640 Speaker 1: it's third Good Marshal Nelson, Mandela, Barack Obama, Harriet Tubman. 574 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: Those choices are so interesting that that wasn't That was 575 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: a photograph that I took as well, and that's included 576 00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,680 Speaker 1: in this book. So I think that's what I'm looking for. 577 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 1: Whether it is a deteriorating structure or a vibrantly restored 578 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: community center, there are visual moments that you can capture 579 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: that helped bring people into the story and connect them 580 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: to the emotional threads of the story. As you said, 581 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 1: thousand miles in a lot of years and a lot 582 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: of time and a lot of conversations. What was your 583 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 1: biggest personal takeaway from the project? Like, how were you 584 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: changed when this was sent off to printer. When you 585 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: read the history of Julius Rosenwald and Brooker T. Washington, 586 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: you are struck by their pragmatism and it caused me 587 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: to think about what is pragmatism? And what I concluded 588 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: was that there's two elements that were really important in 589 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: the work of these men. They are building schools for 590 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: African Americans in nineteen twelve in the Jim Crow South. 591 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: That is a deeply optimistic act. And on top of that, 592 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: that is a multi generational act. They knew that it 593 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:04,319 Speaker 1: would generations for that work to pay off. They were 594 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:10,240 Speaker 1: playing long ball, and that combination of optimism and long 595 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 1: term thinking, that is their pragmatism. And to me, that's 596 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,200 Speaker 1: their gift, the generations of African Americans, their gift to 597 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 1: American history. That was my biggest takeaway, that combination of 598 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: be optimistic, think long term, and in the immortal words 599 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: of John Lewis, make good trouble. This is a really 600 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,160 Speaker 1: cool project because it is not only a book that 601 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: people can buy wherever books are sold, but it is 602 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,280 Speaker 1: also an exhibit. Will you tell us about the exhibit 603 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: at the National Center for Civil and Human Rights. So 604 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: the work of my first book traveled over four and 605 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: a half years to nine different museums, and I knew 606 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: that the idea of photograph prints were yet another way 607 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: to bring people into this story. And I was about 608 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: halfway through shooting this work when I sat down with 609 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: the director of the Center for seven Human Rights, the 610 00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: National Center for Seven Human Rights here in Atlanta, and 611 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: I showed this work and the reaction was like immediate. 612 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: It was like, we are going to do this exhibition. 613 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:27,319 Speaker 1: I was kind of like, okay, UM, and they have 614 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,280 Speaker 1: been an extraordinary partner there are We made the decision 615 00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 1: to print these images large. The images are twenty inches 616 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: by thirty inches, which photographically is an enormous print. There's 617 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: five photographs in the book. Twenty three of them are 618 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: in the exhibition. These stories, as we've discussed here, so 619 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,400 Speaker 1: integral to this body of work that the story sits 620 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: underneath each of the images and the exhibition. The exhibition opened, 621 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: UM opened in May or we up through the end 622 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: of this year, and then the exhibition travels and we'll 623 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: go to first to the Charlotte Museum of History and 624 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:04,680 Speaker 1: the National Civil Rights Museum of Lorraine Motel in Memphis, 625 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: the Tennessee State Museum in Nashville, the Museum of the 626 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: Southern Jewish Experience in New Orleans, UH and then to 627 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,560 Speaker 1: the Virginia Museum of History and Culture. And that gets 628 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: you through to the end of twenty four and I'm 629 00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 1: just starting to schedule my first exhibitions in it will 630 00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: continue to travel and by then there will be another 631 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: book and you can just start the whole process over that. 632 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 1: That would be the plant. UM. I really was so 633 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: struck by just how beautiful these photographs are. The way 634 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 1: you use light to tell a story does some stuff 635 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: to my mind and soul. So thank you for that, 636 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: and thank you for spending all this time with me today, 637 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,640 Speaker 1: and it's it's been a joy. I appreciate your look. 638 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: I I think, look at where we are today as 639 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: a culture. We are at this extraordinary moment where we 640 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: understand the imperative. I'm telling a diverse American narrative, a 641 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: complete American narrative, an accurate American narrative. And I see 642 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 1: my book and this project part of this effort to 643 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:21,759 Speaker 1: diversify how we tell or inclusive American story, and your 644 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,799 Speaker 1: podcast is also part of this important effort to tell 645 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: an inclusive American story. Uh. This was a particularly thrilling interview, 646 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: not only because I love the subject matter, but also 647 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: because this was the first time I returned to our 648 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: office in our studios since the pandemic began, So it 649 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: was such great fun to have this wonderful conversation with 650 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,960 Speaker 1: Andrew Feiler, and I am so thankful for his time. 651 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,760 Speaker 1: The book once Again is a Better Life for Their Children. 652 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: Julius Rosenwald book or t Washington and the four thousand, 653 00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: nine seventy eight Schools That Changed America. You can find 654 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 1: it anywhere books are sold, And if you'd like to 655 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: learn more about the exhibit at the National Center for 656 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: Civil and Human Rights, you can visit Civil and Human 657 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: Rights dot org. You can also find out more about 658 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,799 Speaker 1: that and about Andrew at Andrew Feiler dot com. And 659 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: his last name is spelled f e I l e 660 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: er uh. We hope you check it out because he's 661 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,799 Speaker 1: a fascinating person and truly, like I am not blow 662 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: and smoke when I say he's a very gifted photographer. Um. 663 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,400 Speaker 1: He does some really really beautiful stuff. And the photos 664 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: in this book are spectacularly beautiful. That portrait of John 665 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 1: Lewis he talked about that I got choked up what 666 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: we were talking is absolutely gorgeous. Um, and I love 667 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 1: that there's that perspective included in the book about what 668 00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: it was like to attend one of these schools, and 669 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:46,520 Speaker 1: you really see like how that impacted the role of 670 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: education in America, the world of American black students, and 671 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: just like it really did change everything. So it's I 672 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: love it. I love that book. UM. I hope you 673 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: check it out because you too will love it. It's 674 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: a lot of good stuff. UM. I have fun foodie email, 675 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: which I feel like what I always talked about at 676 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,879 Speaker 1: this point, but I'm really enjoying everybody's stories of their 677 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,240 Speaker 1: cooking disasters and triumphs. This one is from our listener Anna. 678 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's Anna Anna, so my apologies 679 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,480 Speaker 1: if I get it wrong, but uh Anna writes, I 680 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: hope you're both doing well. You've had a string of 681 00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,400 Speaker 1: really great episodes recently, all on topics that are personally 682 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 1: fascinating to me. I finished your episode on Debrek Cocaadia 683 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: last week, and I loved it so much. I shared 684 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: it with a fellow foodie friend who was my neighbor 685 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,239 Speaker 1: when I lived in Rome. She reminded me about the 686 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: first time I ever had my recently become husband's family 687 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,560 Speaker 1: over to dinner at our house. Obviously, for an Italian family, 688 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: food and cooking is super important, and I knew I 689 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,879 Speaker 1: had to get it right. I spent over a month 690 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,799 Speaker 1: studying recipes for the perfect lasagna, and I got it 691 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: down to a fine art. My friend asked me what 692 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,919 Speaker 1: I was planning on cooking them, and I told her. 693 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,800 Speaker 1: She was as aolutely horrified. She begged me to choose 694 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,680 Speaker 1: something else, explaining that every region in Italy does lasagna 695 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: in a slightly different way and if I got it 696 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 1: even slightly wrong, I would risk spending the evening having 697 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: all my hard work compared to the family recipe from 698 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,600 Speaker 1: their nona, and it would feel like a disaster, even 699 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: if it was really good. This was especially important for 700 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: my husband's family, as they actually come from the region 701 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 1: that invented lasagna in the first place. Unfortunately, that conversation 702 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,279 Speaker 1: was about two hours before they arrived. I flew into 703 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: a complete panic and went into the dinner absolutely petrified. 704 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: But it turned out that my hard work paid off. 705 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: My mother in law still talks about my lasagna recipe, 706 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: and I think that dinner is what persuaded her to 707 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: allow her son to marry me. It turns out English 708 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: people can cook after all. My friend and I laughed 709 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: all over again at this story after she listened to 710 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,520 Speaker 1: your episode, so I thought i'd share keep up all 711 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: the good work getting as sauce through these long pandemic months, years, decades. 712 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: I've lost track. I hope you're both doing well, all 713 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: the best. I love this, I love a I love 714 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: a cooking triumph story. That's for sure. I feel like, um, 715 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 1: I would be the cooking fail. I would mess it up. 716 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: But I also wanted to mention in relation to that, 717 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,279 Speaker 1: we got uh an email from our listener Darline, and 718 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: a couple of other people have reached out to me 719 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,680 Speaker 1: to ask about the meat loaf recipe. The meat loaf 720 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: recipe is online. It's on our social media. If you 721 00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 1: check out our Instagram or our Twitter. There it is UH. 722 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,400 Speaker 1: And that is the one that we mentioned in another 723 00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: listener mail and got permission to share the famous secret 724 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 1: but not really that secret lipped and soup ingredient recipe 725 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:39,279 Speaker 1: for meat loaf. And I will tell you I may 726 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: have sent my husband out to purchase all of the 727 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 1: ingredients this morning, so by the time this episode airs, 728 00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,839 Speaker 1: I will have either succeeded or failed in recreating it. 729 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:54,160 Speaker 1: Either way, I'll eat the evidence. Yeah, We've heard from 730 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:59,440 Speaker 1: several listeners and the comments, particularly on Instagram and Facebook, 731 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:05,399 Speaker 1: that the recipe is very similar to their own family recipe. Yeah, 732 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: it is. It's a little um different from some that 733 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 1: I've done. There's a I had never done it. Um. 734 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 1: The one that my mother passed down did not include 735 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,719 Speaker 1: that whole like cooking the bread and milk before you 736 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,040 Speaker 1: incorporated into the meat, which is an interesting part of 737 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:27,440 Speaker 1: it for me. But hopefully by the end of today 738 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 1: I will be very full and happy with a contented 739 00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: smile on my face and full of meat loaf. So also, Anna, 740 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: if you want to send that lasagn your recipient over, 741 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:40,560 Speaker 1: I'm ready to receive and I will broadcast if you 742 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: say it's okay. We could just become like a sideline 743 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: business of historical recipes. Um. I love, as I've said before, 744 00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,439 Speaker 1: people sharing those and making it so other people can 745 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,560 Speaker 1: join their own histories with theirs and make something new 746 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 1: and delicious and nurture all of us together. I thank 747 00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: you so much to everyone who's written us about their 748 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,359 Speaker 1: they're cooking efforts. I love that so much. You can 749 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: write to us too. We are at History Podcast at 750 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: iHeart radio dot com. You can also find us everywhere 751 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: on social media as Missed in History, including that yummy 752 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 1: recipe and if you would like to subscribe to the 753 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,600 Speaker 1: show and you haven't gotten around to it yet. It's 754 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,719 Speaker 1: super easy and we'll take you no time. You can 755 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: do that on the I heart Radio app, at Apple Podcasts, 756 00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:29,000 Speaker 1: or anywhere else you listen to your favorite shows. Stuff 757 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: you Missed in History Class is a production of I 758 00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit 759 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 760 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.