WEBVTT - How Poetry Works 0:00:01.200 --> 0:00:04.640 Welcome to Stuff you should Know from house stuff Works 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:13.960 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:20.240 Clark with Charles w Emily Dickinson Bryant and Jerry Longfellow 0:00:20.360 --> 0:00:23.640 Roll and me. Uh, like I said, I'm just Josh Clark. 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.400 I'm not a poet. And if I am, I don't 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:29.680 know it. Why don't you come over and help me 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:34.120 straighten up? My longfellow? Oh? Yeah, the great Rodney Dangerfield 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.479 was it? And back to school? Yeah? But I think 0:00:36.479 --> 0:00:39.520 we should start off by saying that, you know, Jerry 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.480 likes to deliver confidence builders right before we hit record. Yeah, 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:46.080 she goes, she said, Hey, something I've noticed when you 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.360 guys record too, if there's one that you think stinks, 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:53.559 record that one first, this one recording first. I like 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.240 this one though, I do too. Jerry apparently is not 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.640 down with poetry though she's like it's stupid. She's base 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:07.600 hate poetry like regular sentences. Uh right, she's a fan 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:12.319 of prose. Yeah. What this episode did for me was 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:16.760 reminded me that I like poetry. Yeah. Yeah, I remember 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.840 now as an English major really getting into it for 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:21.400 a little while. I'll bet you had to read a 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:23.560 lot of poetry. For that I did, and some of 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:25.160 it I didn't like it at all, But a lot 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.679 of it I really really liked. And I just realized 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.360 I don't read a lot of poetry anymore, and I 0:01:29.360 --> 0:01:32.399 really kind of dug it. There's plenty of good poetry 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.640 out there, for sure. I've never been wanting to be like, uh, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.600 I'm going to sit here and read poetry all day. Well, 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.920 it does carry a certain like thing. Although I have 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:45.440 smoked pipe before, some of my uh, longsleeve shirts have 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:48.200 swayed patses on the elbows. But I guess I'm just 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.800 a poser because I don't sit around reading poetry. But 0:01:51.920 --> 0:01:55.320 I do appreciate a good poem. Well, I think that 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:58.360 was That's my deal? Is uh, Like, a really good 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:02.160 poem just impresses me to no end? Sure? Yeah, oh man, 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:07.400 try try writing a poem yourself. I did once. Uh, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:11.160 I post college wrote a poem that I liked so 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.720 much I sent it to the New Yorker. Oh you 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:16.400 like it that much? Huh? I liked it enough to 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:21.120 you know, realize rejection. Did it turn out that Ziggy 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:26.400 had already done the same poem? No? You know the reference? Oh, 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:29.320 there's a Signfeld where Elaine sent in a comic to 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.200 the New Yorker, but it turns out she had ripped 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.679 off a ziggy. I don't remember that it's good anyway. 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:38.000 I have a copy of this somewhere, a hard copy, only, 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:40.720 I think some in some box. You didn't bring it today. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.000 Well no, I mean it's got to be my addict, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.160 but I need to get it. And because I remember 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.000 thinking like it's pretty good. Well, yeah, I mean, if 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.080 you sent it to the New Yorker, I would guess 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:51.760 you thought very highly of it. But I was also 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.520 twenty three, and you know I thought, you know, I 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.079 wrote my first poem. I'm gonna send it to the 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.840 New Yorker. Yeah, so it was your first first and 0:02:58.919 --> 0:03:01.280 only first. You're like, it's going to the New York 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:04.160 or first first shot. Yeah, that's funny. That's like a 0:03:04.280 --> 0:03:07.160 kin to like just writing your first script and being like, 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.600 I should get this in Scorsese's hands. This, I might 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.720 as well prepare my Oscar speech. Anyway, I did get 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.760 a rejection letter, but it was nice to, you know, 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.480 get that even. Yeah, you should have it framed next 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.239 to your poem. Yeah, I'd like to see this poem 0:03:20.320 --> 0:03:23.040 or hear it. Uh, it was sort of longish and 0:03:23.080 --> 0:03:25.000 it was about a kid jumping in a pile of 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:29.080 leaves in the fall. But as you'll we will see, 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:34.040 it had you know, symbolism and uh and metaphor. You know, 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.000 I didn't, you know, I never said leaves or pile 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.440 of leaves or you never anything like that. You know, 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.040 it was all like very I thought, skillfully sort of crafted. Yeah, 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:47.280 like you just put me on my head, Like I 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:51.200 thought that the poem was about jumping into leaves and 0:03:51.200 --> 0:03:53.320 the leaves are metaphor for something else, but it's about 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.360 doing something else that's a metaphor for jumping in a 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.600 pile of leaves. No, it was about a kid jumping 0:03:57.600 --> 0:03:59.840 in a pile of leaves. I just never explicitly said that. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.080 I see. You know, he like became a locomotive like 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:07.480 a steam train. Oh, I got you that kind of thing. Oh, 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.560 but that was good. I thought it was pretty good. 0:04:10.640 --> 0:04:12.560 I think everyone wants to hear this poem. Now you're 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.520 gonna have to post it. Well, if I dig it up, 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.599 I will definitely read it in a very special stuff 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.479 you should know episode. It's a deal called how to 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:25.479 Get our listeners to jump into a ravine. So uh. 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.039 One of the things, chuck that when I was researching this, 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.159 I went, I looked all over for you know, learning 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.320 to appreciate poetry or you know what it takes, just 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.120 for some advice, because it's always been a tough nut 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.360 to crack for me, which I think makes me like 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:46.360 just about everybody. And I came across this, uh, this 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:50.160 essay um poets dot org um, and it's called how 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.000 to Read a Poem, and it is it's that's exactly 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:55.800 what it's about. It's written in prose form, thankfully, so 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:58.520 you can understand it like right off the bat, and 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:03.039 um the author may this uh this point, he said 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:07.200 that readers make three false assumptions when addressing an unfamiliar 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:10.080 poem right. The first is that they assumed they should 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:12.560 understand the poem right out of the gate first time 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.120 they read it, and that if they don't, there's something 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.320 wrong with them, or probably less frequently, there's something wrong 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.360 with the poem. This poem doesn't work, get it. The 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:27.919 second is that they they that there's in any given 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:30.320 poem there's a code, and that if you can crack 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:32.960 the code, you get the whole poem. Poems only about 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:36.599 one certain thing, and it's all encoded in one way, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.839 and that's that like you just crack it, bam, you're done, 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.800 poem has been read. And then the third one is 0:05:43.839 --> 0:05:46.640 assuming that the poem can mean anything the reader wanted 0:05:46.680 --> 0:05:49.640 to mean. That's not true. The poem means what the 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:55.279 author intended it to mean. It's open to interpretation, certainly, 0:05:55.760 --> 0:06:00.200 but the poems still from what I'm gathering here, there's 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:03.080 no poet whoever wrote something it was like, I have 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.480 no idea what that means. Yeah, but I have heard 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.919 poets and songwriters say like, you know, I meant it 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:12.599 to be this way, but it's whatever you take it. Yeah, 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.480 And I think there's a lot of meaning imbuted, and 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.680 not just poetry, but any kind of writing, any kind 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:22.440 of art, um by the viewer, by the listener, by 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:26.480 the here by whoever right um. But the point is 0:06:26.520 --> 0:06:32.080 a poem is so meticulously crafted that you can bet 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:37.279 every word, every literally every syllable in every single line 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.720 was hand picked and almost sculpted. And it all comes 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:44.560 together to point out that the best way to approach 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:53.040 poetry is as a a typewritten object of art. Agreed, 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:55.159 and that that once you come at it like that 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.760 and that it's gonna be hard, it's gonna give you trouble, 0:06:57.839 --> 0:07:00.719 But the more trouble it gives you, the more rewarding 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:02.760 it's going to be when you understand it. If you 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:04.520 come at a poem like that and that you're not 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:06.080 going to get it the first time out, that you're 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.440 supposed to spend some time and effort on it, you 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:12.200 can start to appreciate poems. Yeah, that's what I got 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:15.120 from this in prose. I wonder if one of your 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.520 issues with poetry is uh, has something to do with 0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:24.040 how concise poetry is and you're you as a writer, Like, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.520 why you haven't written a two thousand page novel is 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:32.360 surprising to me still, you know infinite just the sequel, 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:35.080 like I always imagine your book would be like uh 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.360 in Wonder Boys, you know that scene where he gets 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.120 to sit down and he types out like I can't 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.160 remember the first three digits, but you think, oh, it's 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.360 three hundred words, and then he types like in a 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.440 four at the end it's like three thousand pages long. Yeah, 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:51.200 And Katie Holmes is like, yeah, once you started getting 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.520 into the different lineages of the horses that were you 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.680 stop you stopped making choices? Such a good movie. Um, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:01.600 you what do you think? Do you think that's accurate? 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:06.200 What like why you might, oh that it's too concise. No, 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.840 I can appreciate things that are different. I think for me, 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.040 it's I I ran into the same thing that this 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.400 the author of How to Read a Poem Um kind 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.880 of called out, which is, Um, you expect to get 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:19.320 it the first time and if you don't, you just 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.880 get kind of frustrated and you give up. I'm a quitter. 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:27.240 I'm a quitter reader. That's not true. Oh, I take 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.760 it back. Then, should we talk about history? Well, one 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.880 thing I thought was kind of really neat is that 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:41.280 poetry predates literacy by hundreds of years, if not thousands. Yeah. Um, 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:43.760 I think when you know when kind of every site 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:46.000 that I looked at talking about the history of poetry 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:50.240 all pointed to Epic of Gilgamesh. Such a good story. Um, 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.679 and just you know the kind of the earliest poetry 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:56.280 period where these epic poems. And a lot of people 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:58.600 think that one reason they turned to poetry was so 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:02.040 they could memorize stories. Right, Yeah, because if you were 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:05.920 a storyteller in your group. You were in a story 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.000 and that was your role. Yeah, and you needed to 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.559 remember actual like facts, events, that kind of thing. So 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:13.400 it was a way to help record and memorize history 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:16.360 in a way, right, Which is kind of a revealing 0:09:16.400 --> 0:09:18.480 thing about poetry, because a lot of people think of 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:22.320 poetry is written or typed, when really poetry is actually 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.680 usually intended to be read aloud. Yeah, and once you 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.480 start reading poems aloud, then I think you'll you'll be like, oh, 0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.920 I see, I hate my voice. I don't go to 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:39.160 poetry readings. But um, there is a dude in fact, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.240 I'm going to read one of his poems later. Um, 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:46.040 there's a modern poet named Derek Brown. Derek. I thought 0:09:46.040 --> 0:09:48.839 you might have met him somehow. He he tours. He's 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.760 a touring poet and opens up a lot of times 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.160 for music bands and like comedians. He opened for Eugene Merman. 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.800 So how I met him once and um, I got 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.480 to know him a little bit and he's just great. 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:04.400 That's pretty cool, Like his poems are awesome. Well, yeah, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.640 I'm sure if you're a touring poet, yeah, you're not 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:10.160 gonna suck. But he's trying to sort of and they're 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.120 you know, all kinds of It's not like he's the 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.480 only person out they're writing poetry. But you know, you 0:10:14.520 --> 0:10:16.840 see articles about poetry being dead every now and then, 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.400 and it's just not the case. Yeah, the article either 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.000 says poetry is dead or poetry is alive and well, 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.840 but everybody calls it rap and then somebody else writes 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:29.400 another Yeah, and there's this huge i'mgoing debate over whether 0:10:29.480 --> 0:10:32.439 rap qualifies his poetry and it's just all written by 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:37.880 like middle aged white men pretty much. Ye oh goodness. Um. So, 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.040 speaking of epics, the Greeks and the Romans, historically, between 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:47.200 and a d was when they were really cranking stuff out, 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.880 and everyone always points to the two big eas. Uh. 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.520 Homer wrote the Iliad or I'm sorry, Iliad, not the 0:10:55.600 --> 0:11:00.839 Iliad and Odyssey. He didn't write the Iliot. I don't 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:06.920 think the official title is the Illiot is Illiot and Odyssey. Um. 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:10.040 I was surprised that he see it was called out 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.880 instead of like Virgil. I would I guess Virgil would 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:16.600 have been name checked sooner than he see it right 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.960 as number two behind Homer, Homer number one for sure. 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:25.200 Ancient Greek epic poets. Yeah, I think so, but he 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:28.559 see it. Come on, I don't know. Works in days 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:33.160 not bad as far as epic poems go, which I'm 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:37.920 not into. I struggled with with both Illiot and Odyssey. 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:40.880 Oh you read them both? Oh yeah? In English class. 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:46.040 I mean I can't. I can't absolutely look back and 0:11:46.080 --> 0:11:48.320 say I read them both all the way through for class. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:50.760 I might have been a little lazy about it, but 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:54.880 we studied them in great detail. I I read enough 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.600 of I guess the Odyssey that I started to confuse 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:05.640 it with the Odyssey. Harry Hamlin, Um Clash of the Titan, 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:13.520 class of the Titans, yep together. Um, he started to 0:12:13.559 --> 0:12:17.440 confuse it with Making Love his eighties movie. I never 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:19.880 saw that one. Yeah, it was a movie about like 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:23.560 a gay man that was married and had like a 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.920 secret affair. Harry Hamlin was him? Well, no, I think 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.440 the husband was Michael and Keene remember that guy. And 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.560 I think he had the affair with Harry Hamlin because 0:12:34.640 --> 0:12:37.320 who wouldn't. Well, yeah, you know I mean that guy 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.720 speaking of I want to say something and it has 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.160 nothing to do with anything he just reminded me with 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:46.760 eighties movie. Um, I've been watching a lot of riff 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:52.679 tracks lately, and they kill it. I want to specifically recommend, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.680 and if you have an Amazon Prime membership, it's streaming 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:59.760 on Prime. A lot of riff tracks is um nightmare 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.160 at noon, I think is what it's called. So had 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:05.360 you not watched a lot of riff tracks, I'd seen 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.480 a few, but I just kind of caught the bug, 0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:11.480 and I've been like like crying, laughing at some parts 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:15.440 or like I'm just wiping my eyes like I don't 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.960 listen to me, man, I don't laugh like that, and 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.079 it's making me laugh like that. Yeah, Kevin and John, 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.080 uh listen to stuff you should know. Supposedly, Yeah, I've 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:27.840 heard that. At least they were nice enough to say 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:30.439 that to my face. I don't know either that or 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:32.760 they're just super nice guys. I didn't want to make 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.520 me feel bad. I can kind of see that They're like, yeah, 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:40.000 I listen to stuff, it knows. Uh. So moving on 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:44.000 to medieval times, um, things started to get a little 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:47.439 more well, not creative, but they started to expand the 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.040 poetic horizons a bit um with the language they used 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:54.480 and the subject matter they wrote about. Chaucer In particularly 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:58.160 started doing something really unusual was writing in the common 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:02.760 everyday language, which kind of didn't happen a lot before him. No, 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.360 had been Latin up till in. Yeah, and he's like 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:11.400 talking about you know, common people in the common language. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:16.000 You're all common for then, But Chaucer is tough, impenetrable. Yeah. 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.080 For me, it's like, what's this guy talking about? Yeah, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.480 you need a good teacher for that stuff, like a 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:24.640 really good English teacher that can walk you through that. Yeah, 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:28.600 supposedly Canterbury Tales are really interesting and like there's a 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:30.960 lot of wit and humor to him. But yeah, you 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:35.200 it's it's just really difficult language. Yeah, I had to 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.560 get somebody who knows it. I had a good teacher 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.240 in college, and I had an idea to make Canterbury 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.640 Tales into a modern movie but but on a Greyhound butts, 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:46.680 And uh I thought that was great. I thought all 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:48.520 my ideas were good when I was like twenty one. Yeah, 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:52.200 you know, it's not a bad idea. Sorry, it's no Sharknado. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.760 You need royalties for that one. Uh So, moving on 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:01.160 to the Renaissance period, thing's gotta the more creative. And 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:04.480 this is when we saw new forms of meter young 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:09.400 man named William Shakespeare Thomas Marlowe. They started the verse 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:15.320 drama movement, right, and so initially you've got poetry is um, 0:15:15.440 --> 0:15:18.880 it's just oral history basically, and then the Greeks come along, 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:22.040 and then the Romans um and codify it and and 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.920 make formal structures out of it, and then everybody starts 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:29.080 to undo those, and it's getting further and further away 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.760 from the Greeks and the Romans until we hit the 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.360 Enlightenment period from about the mid seventeenth century until almost 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.240 the eighteenth century, almost the nineteenth century, I should say, um, 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.960 and they went back and basically venerated the Greek and 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:49.960 Roman traditions, which seems weird to me because some somebody, 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:53.840 somebody was struck and said, these guys knew what they 0:15:53.840 --> 0:15:56.240 were doing. Yeah, I'm kind of surprised to would have 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.560 thought the Enlightenment would have taken things in an even 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:01.280 further like a way from that, But I guess not. 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:04.880 I guess not. I think the Romantics did, though, uh 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:09.480 seventeen yeah, about eighteen thirty, Um, that's when they kind 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.000 of poopooed and poopoo But they'd straight a bit from 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.200 what the Enlightenment was doing well. Rebelled for sure. It 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.560 seems like there were like periods of strict structure and 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:23.600 then rebellion away from that over the decades, in centuries 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.320 in the history of poetry, which is literally what we're 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:32.800 talking about right now, and probably a cultural movement as well. 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:36.280 I'm sure it was kind of all tied together, right, uh, 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.240 certainly with the Transcendentalist movement in the United States. And 0:16:39.280 --> 0:16:41.800 I used to be all about those cats. Yeah, I 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.680 loved them, And then I started really learning about Thorow 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:47.440 and I was kind of like it was a bit 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:53.080 of a weirdo, you know, like in real life odd dude. Yeah, 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.440 and not like in all great ways. You know, I 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.280 could just go off and like poop in the corner 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:01.520 at a party. He just go off and lived deliberately 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:10.480 like opirto uh, poop in the corner party. All right, Um, 0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:13.000 but they did, you know, the transcendentness in the Romantics 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.399 did focus a lot on create a nature and stuff 0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:18.199 like that. Certainly, throw it was all about it. I 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.720 liked let me, I'm just saying I liked Emerson more 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.399 than the Row. As I got older, I used to 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.679 think the Row was great then I came to like 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:32.800 Emerson more well throws that's a young man's game. Uh, 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.840 I'm wondering how people are just like one of these 0:17:35.840 --> 0:17:41.480 guys talking about welcome to our new subscribers, Victorian period 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:46.600 nine one, and this is further breaking away from the establishment. 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:49.840 And this is when you get like the great granddaddy 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:54.800 of them all, Mr Whitman. Yeah, he's like structure meter 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:57.520 for them. You can take it and shove it. I 0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.840 say nuts to that and things kind of like that 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.399 was it from kind of then on, like you had 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:05.080 your traditionalists still and even today you still do. But um, 0:18:05.520 --> 0:18:07.639 that's when basically all the rules were out the window 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:09.920 and you could do whatever you wanted yea, and call 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:14.600 it poetry thanks to Walt Whitman. Leaves of Grass Baby, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:19.800 I think that was the original title. Yeah, a couple 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:22.920 of wise on the end. Um, should we move into 0:18:22.920 --> 0:18:24.960 the twentieth century to Well, you kind of have to, 0:18:25.040 --> 0:18:28.480 because it's not like poetry just ended with Whitman. The 0:18:28.520 --> 0:18:32.399 twentieth century definitely saw its share of movements. Um. Apparently 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.359 in the very early twentieth century there was a modernist 0:18:36.440 --> 0:18:41.360 movement that sought to go even further away from the norms, 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.040 and they even rebelled against poor Walt Whitman, who may 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:45.920 or may not have still been alive to see this. 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:48.880 But they said, you know what, we're sick of your 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:53.560 flowery language and your fancy calligraphy and all that. We 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.280 are gonna make short, concise, interesting poems. And that was 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.399 the Modernist movement. This is where it really started to 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:03.639 get interesting for me. The Modernists. Yeah, like I was, 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:09.760 I was way into e. Cummings and Yates and Gertrude 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:15.199 Stein and Sylvia Plath. What about Robert Frost. Yeah he 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.960 was good. I mean, listen to me. He was good. 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.760 He was all right, No, he was amazing. Aden, which 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:26.120 one was the one who like made pitthy rhyming short rhymes? 0:19:26.600 --> 0:19:29.200 Like there was a this is so sad. I got 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:31.679 my poetry from King of the Hill. But there was 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.159 this one King of the Hill where Peggy Hill is 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:38.560 um reciting a poem. She said, the cow is of 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.879 the bovine ilk one and gives mu the other milk. 0:19:42.440 --> 0:19:45.880 Who was that? It wasn't Ezra Pound? Was that Ezra 0:19:45.920 --> 0:19:47.840 Pound would have written something like that. It sounds like 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.240 something like Oscar Wild would have done. It was a Texan, 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:55.280 I believe because they were observing the guy's house no 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:59.560 idea definitely was an Oscar wild then. Um. Anyway, that's 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:03.280 when I really they got into poetry, like it was 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.040 way more accessible to me, and like I could read E. 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.840 Cummings and and sort of get it. I think part 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:12.800 of it also, though, Chuck, is your experience was a 0:20:12.880 --> 0:20:16.720 lot closer in resemblance to the experience of people in 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.160 the early twentieth century than it was to a Puritan 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:24.600 writing in New England, And like the seventeenth century, you 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:29.159 know about how much I love God and my neighbors. 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.520 You know, like your experience is different, so of course 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.160 you can identify with it. So of course the poetry 0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:38.399 that's created from that experience is going to speak to you, 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:40.960 or at least be more accessible to you. I think 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.400 that's why a lot of people get turned off from 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.840 poetry to Here's another reason is because you're indoctrinated into 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:51.960 this history of poetry and it should go backwards. Did 0:20:52.000 --> 0:20:56.600 you go counter chronologically? Like you should be inculcated in 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.920 poetry roughly in at least the same century, within the 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.480 last act, And then once you start to get that, 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.719 you can take on older and older stuff. But it's like, 0:21:06.760 --> 0:21:09.480 not only do you have to get the poem, you 0:21:09.560 --> 0:21:12.000 have to get the poem and also understand like a 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:17.120 completely different social outlook from somebody who lived a couple 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.719 of hundred years ago. Yeah, it's like, what are they 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:21.760 even talking about? Well, I was about to give advice 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.680 to English teachers, but then I realized we just did 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:25.479 the same thing. It's like, if you start your class 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.320 with all right, let's talk about the epic of Gilgamesh, 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:31.119 it's like, that's how you can lose a student. But 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:34.320 we just did the same thing. Jerry, can you publish 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:39.639 this thing backwards? Uh, there's a way. Well, I have 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:42.520 to admit to my dead poets society had, you know, 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:44.680 pretty big impact on me too. I never saw it. 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:48.400 Shut up, I never saw it. You're kidding, I've never 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.080 seen it. Just so I could say this moment, have 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:54.040 you really? Yeah, I've never seen it. We should start 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:59.359 a movie podcast where we each just our like, no, yeah, 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:04.840 called you've never seen it? Right? So um, I was 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.480 inculcated into the work of Robin Williams in the wrong 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:13.200 way and much that. No. No, Patch Adams, Oh, once 0:22:13.240 --> 0:22:15.000 I saw Patch Adams I was like, I can't see 0:22:15.000 --> 0:22:18.040 any more Robin Williams movies. You should see that? Posts 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.320 I'm sure I should. It was really good. I think 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:23.359 I've got another ten fifteen years of Patch Adams to 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:25.840 wear off. First, is that the only Robin Wayams movie 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:33.159 you've ever That's the last one I saw that? Really? Man? No, 0:22:33.320 --> 0:22:37.000 that's not true. Father of the Year I saw. Have 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:39.280 you seen it? You're picking the wrong movies, have you 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.640 seen it? No? That was good in a weird indie way. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:45.760 It's a weird little movie he did. He did good. 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:47.440 I think that might be his last one. I think 0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:49.840 I'm thinking of something else. Yeah, this is a little 0:22:49.880 --> 0:22:52.720 weird into movie. Yeah, I'm thinking something different. I think 0:22:52.720 --> 0:22:57.440 Bob Goldwaet directed it. Oh well, then it's good. Um, 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:03.280 and then we move on. We're getting into the nineteen No, 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:05.200