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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lari Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist's Advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 3: and I write the Dear Guy Advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 3: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 4: Each week we invite you into a session so you

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Speaker 4: can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help

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Speaker 4: other people come to understand themselves better and make changes

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Speaker 4: in their lives.

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Speaker 3: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 4: This week, a woman wonders if her fiance's past infidelities

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Speaker 4: on social media spelled trouble for their future together.

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Speaker 5: It was an infatuation, but it wasn't until I caught

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Speaker 5: him this past summer where he said that he had

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Speaker 5: been in love with her. I didn't know that he

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Speaker 5: had felt that way towards her first.

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Speaker 3: A quick note deo therapist is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 3: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 3: a substitute for professional healthcare advice. Diagnosis, or treatment. Always

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Speaker 3: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or

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Speaker 3: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have

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Speaker 3: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in part

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Speaker 3: or in full, and we may edit it for length

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Speaker 3: and clarity and the sessions you'll hear. All names have

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Speaker 3: been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers. Hi, Laurie,

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Speaker 3: Hey guy, So what do we have today?

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Speaker 1: Well, today we have a complicated relationship situation and it

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Speaker 1: goes like this, Dear therapists. I'm a forty two year

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Speaker 1: old woman who for the past decade has been a

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Speaker 1: single mom of one, but who now is engaged to

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Speaker 1: day on a wonderful man with two kids, both teens

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Speaker 1: like my son. A year and two our dating, I

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Speaker 1: became unintentionally pregnant, which sped along the cohabitation process. My

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Speaker 1: son and I moved into Dan's house just two years

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Speaker 1: after his contention divorce.

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Speaker 4: The first year was really rough. Dan's daughter hated me

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Speaker 4: and acted out in rage often, and it felt like

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Speaker 4: things weren't going to be able to work. I felt

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Speaker 4: terribly guilty for the pregnancy and for putting all the

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Speaker 4: kids into this rushed and overwhelming situation. Dan and I

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Speaker 4: had good communication throughout, but at times wondered if we'd

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Speaker 4: be together if it wasn't for our baby that we

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Speaker 4: both wanted. Nowadays, everything feels great, his daughter has changed,

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Speaker 4: and it feels like a real blended family. We plan

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Speaker 4: to get married and have a lot of hope for

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Speaker 4: our futures and love the kids and what we've created. However,

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Speaker 4: twice in the past year, I've discovered him quote cheating

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Speaker 4: on me with women on Instagram, one being the woman

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Speaker 4: he had had an affair with, which helped ruin his marriage.

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Speaker 4: I was devastated and almost left him, but we got

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Speaker 4: through it. He really wanted to work it out and

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Speaker 4: deleted the app. We agreed to therapy, though we haven't

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Speaker 4: started yet. But sometimes he rolls his eyes about it,

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Speaker 4: and he's made comments about his quote cheating as though

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Speaker 4: it wasn't a big deal, and gives me the impression

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Speaker 4: he's just doing therapy for my sake, like he doesn't

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Speaker 4: see what's wrong with what he did. I worry that

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Speaker 4: this will be an ongoing pattern. My soul says, I

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Speaker 4: can't possibly be happy with a man who behaves in

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Speaker 4: such a sneaky manner. But I feel obligated to these kids,

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Speaker 4: especially the daughter who has endured so much chaos. I

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Speaker 4: also fear becoming a single mom again and doing that

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Speaker 4: to the new baby. I want to trust my partner,

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Speaker 4: but he's downloaded the app again, and sometimes I snoop

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Speaker 4: on it to check up on him. He gets really

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Speaker 4: annoyed when I ask to look at his phone, and

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Speaker 4: sometimes a fight can send him into doubts about us. Otherwise,

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Speaker 4: he professes great love for me and a deep commitment

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Speaker 4: to making us work. My question is should I marry

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Speaker 4: him or wait and see how the next few years go?

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Speaker 4: And is his cheating behavior worth ruining the stability and

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Speaker 4: happiness all the kids now finally have. The truth is

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Speaker 4: I can't leave even if I wanted to. I'm financially

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Speaker 4: bound to him, as I've had to cut my hours

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Speaker 4: to take care of the baby and I don't have

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Speaker 4: a good job. Your help would be appreciated, Jennifer.

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Speaker 3: Jennifer is in a real because on the one hand,

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Speaker 3: she's saying that she can't leave for financial reasons, which

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Speaker 3: is a situation many people find themselves in, and it's

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Speaker 3: truly very very difficult because you're making really radical choices

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Speaker 3: about financial security, food and security potentially and staying in

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Speaker 3: a situation that can make you potentially unhappy. Now, she

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Speaker 3: sounds optimistic, like she wants to work on things and

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Speaker 3: help them work out. And my concern is that he,

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Speaker 3: like many people, is really minimizing this activity on social

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Speaker 3: media because it's just social media. It doesn't really count.

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Speaker 3: It's not really cheating, it's not really flirting when it counts. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And something that she said really stuck out to me,

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Speaker 1: which was she said, I know my soul can't live

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Speaker 1: with this, and then the other sentence was, but I

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Speaker 1: can't leave. And so I think she's trying to justify

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Speaker 1: to herself why this is going to be okay if

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Speaker 1: something doesn't change. You know, her option was should I

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Speaker 1: marry him? Or should I wait a few years and

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Speaker 1: see how it goes?

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Speaker 4: And they really have to address it now, So let's

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Speaker 4: go talk to her and see what's going on.

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Speaker 3: Yes, you're listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be

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Speaker 3: back after a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Guy Wench and this is deo therapist. Hi Jennifer, and

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Speaker 3: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 5: Hi, thank you, thanks for having me well, welcome, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: So, Jennifer, can you tell us a little bit about

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the relationship, how you met, where you

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Speaker 1: both were in your lives.

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Speaker 5: But we met, it's going on three years ago on

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Speaker 5: a dating app, and it was an app where the

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Speaker 5: woman selects the man and starts the conversation. So I

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Speaker 5: was the pursuer quote unquote, and we dated for a

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Speaker 5: good two months and kind of felt like a exciting beginning.

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Speaker 5: He had been fresh off of a divorce, had only

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Speaker 5: been living on his own with his kids for about

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Speaker 5: nine months when we met.

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Speaker 3: Does he have full custody?

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Speaker 5: They had joint custody a couple days a week and

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Speaker 5: every other weekend. So he had expressed at the beginning

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Speaker 5: of dating where he was at. He was very clear

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Speaker 5: about that about hesitancy to get into a full fledged relationship.

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Speaker 5: And two months into dating he pulled back, but then

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Speaker 5: very quickly came back, and from that coming back point,

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Speaker 5: we were just in a relationship. And it was by

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Speaker 5: the almost the year anniversary of us meeting that I

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Speaker 5: became pregnant.

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Speaker 4: When he told you early on that he wasn't looking

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Speaker 4: for a relationship, yet, why did you continue?

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Speaker 1: Were you looking for a relationship?

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Speaker 5: I was. I've always been insecure in my dating life.

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Speaker 5: I haven't had many successful relationships. I had been a

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Speaker 5: single mom for a good decade, had a relationship on

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Speaker 5: and off with somebody for about five or six years

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Speaker 5: that was always fraught with non commitment, and I was

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Speaker 5: in a very lonely spot. I knew I should and

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Speaker 5: wanted to be in a relationship. I wanted to get

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Speaker 5: married someday and have that normalcy. So I was ready

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Speaker 5: to look for a marriage partner.

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Speaker 1: So when he told you he was not what made

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Speaker 1: you want to continue to pursue.

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Speaker 5: It, because he would also say things like he wanted

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Speaker 5: that again at some point he knew that down the

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Speaker 5: road that's where he wanted to be. He just felt

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Speaker 5: like he was in this bachelor stage after the divorce,

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Speaker 5: you know, he was still kind of processing that whole thing.

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Speaker 5: But when we first started dating, he made a lot

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Speaker 5: of really positive comments, like romantic things. I guess, like, really,

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Speaker 5: I see myself with you. It's great that our kids

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Speaker 5: are around the same age. You know, I know in

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Speaker 5: the future what I want is to be in a

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Speaker 5: relationship again, and you know, to not be alone.

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Speaker 3: So after a couple of months, he pulled away and

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Speaker 3: then came back. Tell us what happened there, What was

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Speaker 3: the pulling away about, what was the coming back about,

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Speaker 3: and what was you accepting him back about.

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Speaker 5: It felt to me like a spur of the moment

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Speaker 5: thing he had come over one night. I had a

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Speaker 5: couple of friends over and it was a fun evening

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Speaker 5: together with dinner, and all of a sudden, we're in

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Speaker 5: the kitchen and he said, I was honestly thinking of

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Speaker 5: ending things with you. I feel like my emotions are

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Speaker 5: all over the place. It was a couple of months

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Speaker 5: into the relationship, and he felt like where we were

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Speaker 5: at was either stop dating or make it a relationship,

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Speaker 5: and he didn't feel quite ready. He was scared to

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Speaker 5: make it a relationship at that point.

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Speaker 3: What was that like for you?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 5: It was crushing. It was very defeating for me, and

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Speaker 5: it almost like reinforced my story. I guess, like yet

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Speaker 5: another person doesn't want to be with me. I just

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Speaker 5: accepted it with grace. I didn't really try to hang

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Speaker 5: on to him, and I didn't I stopped texting him.

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Speaker 5: I just let him make the decision, and I was

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Speaker 5: okay with that. It was out of my hands. I

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Speaker 5: was done trying to prove myself, you know. So then

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Speaker 5: like a week later, he texted me that he was sorry,

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Speaker 5: he hoped I didn't hate him. He invited me to talk,

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Speaker 5: and I'd written him a letter and sent it to him,

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Speaker 5: explaining how I view relationships and just making it really

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Speaker 5: clear what I was looking for. And so then we

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Speaker 5: met and he kind of started the pursuit track again.

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Speaker 5: You know. It's right around Valentine's Day, and he left

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Speaker 5: me flowers, and then he wanted to go on a

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Speaker 5: trip together to kind of see how he did with

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Speaker 5: each other for several days in a row. And I

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Speaker 5: guess I passed that test. And I think he talked

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Speaker 5: a lot through with his mother, and he felt like,

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Speaker 5: even though he had dated that whole year, that I

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Speaker 5: was the most compatible person that he'd met, and he

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Speaker 5: was kind of like scared the end things permanently, you know,

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Speaker 5: what if someone else didn't come along after that.

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Speaker 1: So he kind of wanted to be in a safe

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Speaker 1: place for him, which is I'm not really going to

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Speaker 1: commit to you. But I also don't want to let

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Speaker 1: you go. Yeah, and you were in a place of

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Speaker 1: I'm really lonely. I'll take what i can get and

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Speaker 1: I enjoy this person.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And I felt really loved by him. He was

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Speaker 5: a giver. He says a lot of words of affirmation,

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Speaker 5: which I feel like that's my love language.

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Speaker 1: If he's good with the words, how is he with

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Speaker 1: the actions?

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Speaker 5: He's great. I mean, he's the one person that I

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Speaker 5: have ever been with that has made me feel love.

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Speaker 5: Like he really shows his love through gifts and showing

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Speaker 5: up on time. He's always very mindful of texting and

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Speaker 5: being communicative. He takes care of everybody, even my other

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Speaker 5: son who's not his you know, Like he put him

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Speaker 5: on his healthcare and he pays for everything. He's a

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Speaker 5: really good man, you know, and he takes responsibility. Like

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Speaker 5: with the sudden pregnancy, he was like he was happy

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Speaker 5: about it, and he was scared too, but he was

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Speaker 5: immediately was just like, Okay, we're doing this. We're gonna

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Speaker 5: get married, We're going to make this work.

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Speaker 3: Is that what you wanted when you became pregnant.

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Speaker 5: When I first found out I was pregnant, I was

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Speaker 5: terrified and I thought this can't happen. And I debated

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Speaker 5: having an abortion, even though that's not my uh preference.

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Speaker 5: But when I told him and we talked about it,

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Speaker 5: you know, he jumped right away to like, let's get married.

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Speaker 5: And we had mentioned marriage before then, so you know,

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Speaker 5: I felt excited. I'm always like scared to like really

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Speaker 5: get my hopes to in, but I was definitely excited, like, oh,

250
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Speaker 5: this is the family that I've been wanting. We can

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Speaker 5: make this work. It's going to be crazy, but yeah,

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Speaker 5: I would marry him in a heartbeat. Is how I felt.

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Speaker 1: Can I go back to the pregnancy for a second.

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Speaker 1: You say you unexpectedly got pregnant. Were you both just careless?

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Speaker 1: Was one of you careless? How did that come about?

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Speaker 5: So I had this lapse where I wasn't using any

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Speaker 5: birth control and then he wasn't being safe. We are

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Speaker 5: just being really careless. He would say like romantic things

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Speaker 5: like oh, if you got pregnant, then I definitely know

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Speaker 5: you were the one, or oh, we get pregnant, we'd

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Speaker 5: have a little girl, we name her this, you know,

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Speaker 5: just kind of like daydreamy romantic things. My first child

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Speaker 5: happened the same way. Just being careless it's always been accidental.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't sound accidental. It sounds like there was a

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Speaker 1: hope that you couldn't fully voice, and so passively you

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Speaker 1: would try to make that desire happen. Yeah, at least

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Speaker 1: in this case.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it could be like gives a sense of there

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Speaker 5: would be stability, like he wouldn't run away, he'd have

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Speaker 5: to stay.

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Speaker 1: Although it does it does sound a little backwards that

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Speaker 1: if you got pregnant, I would know you were the one.

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Speaker 1: What I think most of us hope is that I

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Speaker 1: know you're the one, and then once we establish ourselves

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Speaker 1: as a couple, then we decide to expand into a

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Speaker 1: bigger family. So it's almost like, why would he need

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Speaker 1: this external validation to tell him that you were the one?

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Speaker 1: So to me, actually, to my ears, that didn't sound romantic.

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Speaker 1: To my ears, that sounded like a giant life flag.

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Speaker 5: If I'm honest with myself, all those times where he

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00:16:18,719 --> 00:16:22,039
Speaker 5: would kind of say those things, he could be very fickle,

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Speaker 5: like one day I say these romantic things, within the

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Speaker 5: next day say something that contradicts that, like what like, oh,

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Speaker 5: I didn't know if things were going to work out

285
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Speaker 5: with us. I didn't know that my bachelor days were

286
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Speaker 5: going to end so soon. I didn't know that I

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Speaker 5: would find you so soon.

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Speaker 3: Is that basically what his hesitation was, that I just

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Speaker 3: got divorced. I want to have some bachelor days. If

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Speaker 3: I had met you in five years time, i'd be

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Speaker 3: totally ready to settle down again. But I just met

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Speaker 3: you too soon. Yeah, And that's the hesitation. And maybe,

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Speaker 3: in fact that would be the sign. In other words,

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Speaker 3: if you got pregnant, it would be the sign that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: maybe it's too soon, but no, this is the right

296
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Speaker 3: one anyway. Yeah, but the hesitation was constantly about the timing.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, He's expressed very clearly at that period of the

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Speaker 5: bachelorhood was him kind of having like this sigh of

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Speaker 5: relief after a marriage that had been unhappy for many years,

300
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Speaker 5: and then he had a very tumultuous affair with a coworker,

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Speaker 5: bitter divorce, and he said that those bachelor days were

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Speaker 5: just him feeling free, like he can finally do things

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Speaker 5: on his own, make his own decisions, not have to

304
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Speaker 5: have so much responsibility running a house. You know, he's

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Speaker 5: just living in an apartment with his kids.

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Speaker 3: What happened to the woman he had the affair with

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Speaker 3: after he got separated from his wife. Was he with

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Speaker 3: her now?

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Speaker 5: When his wife discovered the affair, she made him end

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Speaker 5: things with her, like on a three way phone call,

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Speaker 5: and when her partner found out about the affair, he

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Speaker 5: very aggressively threatened to call his words as she quit

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Speaker 5: cut off all contact, like it was pretty ugly.

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Speaker 1: Did he ever talk about what it was like for

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Speaker 1: him to have to grieve both the end of a marriage,

316
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Speaker 1: even though it sounds like he wanted out of the marriage,

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Speaker 1: but it's still an ending to something, and then also

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Speaker 1: grieve the end of this relationship that probably made him

319
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Speaker 1: feel seen and alive and all those things that maybe

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Speaker 1: he wasn't feeling in his marriage. Did you guys ever

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Speaker 1: have a conversation about that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we did. We talked pretty frankly, I want to say,

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Speaker 5: several times, like around Christmas that first year, when he

324
00:18:45,999 --> 00:18:48,399
Speaker 5: would dig out the decorations and some of them were

325
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Speaker 5: the decorations that his ex wife had bought, So he

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Speaker 5: would get very emotional and then talk about the pain

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Speaker 5: that he inflicted on his children because they found out

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Speaker 5: about the affair. His wife had told the kids even

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Speaker 5: though they were like ten and eight. He was married

330
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Speaker 5: for over ten years and just felt a lot of

331
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Speaker 5: guilt around what happened, because he did love her in

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Speaker 5: the beginning and they did have a fun relationship, just

333
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Speaker 5: with the stress of kids and their relationship just kind

334
00:19:21,039 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 5: of got away from them and he realized he wasn't

335
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Speaker 5: in love with her.

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Speaker 1: You said he felt guilt, So he realized that he

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Speaker 1: had hurt her by having the affair, not just his kids.

338
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Speaker 1: But did he feel guilt around having hurt her?

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Speaker 5: You know, we don't know. I want to say yes,

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Speaker 5: but I'm not too sure on that.

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Speaker 1: Honestly, I'm asking because it's very clear that he feels

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Speaker 1: as guilt for having hurt his kids, but he doesn't

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Speaker 1: seem to understand, at least based on your letter, that

344
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Speaker 1: he's hurting you by reaching out on Instagram to these women.

345
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Speaker 1: And so I think it's important to know how he

346
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,519
Speaker 1: feels about what happened the first time, and whether he

347
00:20:01,559 --> 00:20:04,999
Speaker 1: realizes that he did hurt his wife by cheating on

348
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Speaker 1: her instead of addressing the issues directly with her.

349
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Speaker 5: I don't know. You know, the first time that I

350
00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:15,399
Speaker 5: caught him with the Instagram thing, when I confronted him,

351
00:20:15,439 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 5: there really wasn't a sense of being sorry for me.

352
00:20:20,159 --> 00:20:23,319
Speaker 5: I think at once he did say I'm sorry to

353
00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,879
Speaker 5: see you sad. You know, I'm sorry to see that

354
00:20:26,919 --> 00:20:27,519
Speaker 5: this hurt you.

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Speaker 4: It's an apology that doesn't take responsibility. It's like something

356
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Speaker 4: happened in the world that hurt you, as opposed to

357
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Speaker 4: I am sorry that I hurt you.

358
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Speaker 5: Yeah. I In the second time, when it was when

359
00:20:40,799 --> 00:20:42,519
Speaker 5: he had been messaging with the woman that he had

360
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Speaker 5: an affair with, I was so angry because there was

361
00:20:49,279 --> 00:20:53,719
Speaker 5: no sense of responsibility. He just acted like this was

362
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Speaker 5: just something that happened. I didn't get the sense that

363
00:20:56,679 --> 00:20:59,239
Speaker 5: he was really sorry on my behalf. He you know, like,

364
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Speaker 5: I don't want to make my life more complicated, So

365
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Speaker 5: I'm not going to have an affair because i don't

366
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Speaker 5: want to make my life more complicated.

367
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Speaker 1: Did you ever talk about how he felt about having

368
00:21:07,639 --> 00:21:10,759
Speaker 1: to end a relationship with the person he was having

369
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Speaker 1: the affair with.

370
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Speaker 5: We didn't talk about her. He always described as like

371
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Speaker 5: an infatuation. I think he did feel like it gave

372
00:21:19,479 --> 00:21:22,919
Speaker 5: him the feelings that he was wanting to feel in

373
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Speaker 5: his life about himself. Like he said before that his

374
00:21:25,679 --> 00:21:29,799
Speaker 5: sexuality was a big piece of his identity and there

375
00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:33,479
Speaker 5: was no romance with his wife. It wasn't until I

376
00:21:33,519 --> 00:21:37,759
Speaker 5: caught him messaging with her this past summer where he

377
00:21:37,839 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 5: said I was in love with her. Before he always

378
00:21:41,679 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 5: said it was an infatuation. She was like thirteen years

379
00:21:46,199 --> 00:21:49,799
Speaker 5: younger than him, so they had fun. She was very playful,

380
00:21:50,959 --> 00:21:55,239
Speaker 5: you know, it's a very sexually charged relationship. But it

381
00:21:55,279 --> 00:21:59,599
Speaker 5: wasn't until I caught him this past summer where he

382
00:21:59,679 --> 00:22:01,759
Speaker 5: said that he had been in love with her, Like

383
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Speaker 5: I didn't know that he had been, that he had

384
00:22:03,999 --> 00:22:06,279
Speaker 5: felt that way towards her. I know that he felt

385
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:09,799
Speaker 5: affectionate towards her, in a fondness towards her, but he's

386
00:22:09,799 --> 00:22:12,839
Speaker 5: also called her dumb and she's not someone he could

387
00:22:12,839 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 5: ever be with.

388
00:22:14,279 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 3: But you know, it's an interesting rationalization when you catch

389
00:22:17,679 --> 00:22:20,079
Speaker 3: your messaging the woman with whom he had an affair,

390
00:22:20,919 --> 00:22:22,559
Speaker 3: to say, well, but I was in love with her

391
00:22:22,959 --> 00:22:27,719
Speaker 3: is a very interesting rationalization or explanation to offer in

392
00:22:27,759 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 3: that moment, because what does that really mean? No, it's okay,

393
00:22:30,999 --> 00:22:33,279
Speaker 3: because she wasn't just this thing. I actually had feelings

394
00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:35,999
Speaker 3: for her. Do you still? In other words, then what

395
00:22:36,159 --> 00:22:38,199
Speaker 3: is this about? Did you ask that?

396
00:22:38,839 --> 00:22:38,919
Speaker 1: So?

397
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,599
Speaker 5: Apparently he had had her blocked since the affair and

398
00:22:42,639 --> 00:22:45,319
Speaker 5: all the drama went down, and I guess he had

399
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:50,439
Speaker 5: unblocked her that summer, and she's into dressing up in

400
00:22:50,759 --> 00:22:54,319
Speaker 5: costumes that are sexy and stuff like that, so I

401
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 5: think he was watching some of her videos, and so

402
00:22:57,519 --> 00:23:00,599
Speaker 5: she messaged him like, hey, I noticed you're viewing me,

403
00:23:00,679 --> 00:23:03,799
Speaker 5: which means you unblocked me. And so she just asked

404
00:23:03,799 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 5: about his life, and they had a conversation about how

405
00:23:07,199 --> 00:23:08,959
Speaker 5: their lives are going, and he said that he told

406
00:23:08,999 --> 00:23:12,519
Speaker 5: her he was very happy, and I had actually messaged

407
00:23:12,559 --> 00:23:14,319
Speaker 5: her after this and she said, yeah, he said he

408
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:16,719
Speaker 5: was very happy with you and loved how his life

409
00:23:16,759 --> 00:23:19,239
Speaker 5: was going. But in the midst of that, he tells her,

410
00:23:19,839 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 5: you haunt my dreams, you know, And then she said

411
00:23:23,719 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 5: something sexual back, like I wish I could feel you again.

412
00:23:28,639 --> 00:23:31,119
Speaker 5: There's like a quick exchange of that.

413
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Speaker 3: That you saw or that he told you about, that

414
00:23:32,639 --> 00:23:33,319
Speaker 3: he told.

415
00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:37,519
Speaker 5: Me about, and then she also told me, and then

416
00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:41,519
Speaker 5: they both mutually agreed that they're not going to pursue

417
00:23:41,519 --> 00:23:45,719
Speaker 5: this route. It was a quick message exchange that happened

418
00:23:45,759 --> 00:23:50,359
Speaker 5: over an evening and apparently no more. And the only

419
00:23:50,399 --> 00:23:52,679
Speaker 5: reason I found out about it is because I had

420
00:23:52,719 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 5: suspicions and I pressed him one evening and he told

421
00:23:57,879 --> 00:24:02,559
Speaker 5: me about it. And so now the story goes where

422
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:05,519
Speaker 5: he thinks that he came forward to me with this information,

423
00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:08,799
Speaker 5: but he didn't come forward to me. I pressed it

424
00:24:08,879 --> 00:24:10,719
Speaker 5: out of him because I had suspicions.

425
00:24:11,199 --> 00:24:12,599
Speaker 1: Why did you have suspicions?

426
00:24:13,479 --> 00:24:16,719
Speaker 5: Because he started sleeping on the couch. Yeah, I go

427
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:18,519
Speaker 5: to bed early, so he hangs out in the living

428
00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:21,279
Speaker 5: room and you wind up falling asleep out there. But

429
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,759
Speaker 5: I started to get suspicious, like, oh, that's happening a lot.

430
00:24:24,319 --> 00:24:26,479
Speaker 5: And he's always on his phone and he's very he

431
00:24:26,559 --> 00:24:28,199
Speaker 5: was very guarded with his phone.

432
00:24:29,159 --> 00:24:34,959
Speaker 3: Does he believe there's anything wrong in contacting this woman

433
00:24:35,159 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 3: or other women via Instagram? Does he think that that's

434
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 3: wrong or does he think that that's okay? If he

435
00:24:41,919 --> 00:24:44,839
Speaker 3: doesn't act on it, then no harm, no foul.

436
00:24:45,159 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 5: I think that he thinks it's not okay because we've

437
00:24:48,919 --> 00:24:51,239
Speaker 5: talked about it before and he's definitely not okay with

438
00:24:51,279 --> 00:24:53,999
Speaker 5: me doing that. Aside from the two times that I've discovered,

439
00:24:54,039 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 5: I don't know of him messaging other people.

440
00:24:56,439 --> 00:24:58,719
Speaker 3: But you said he gets cagy, Like, why would you

441
00:24:58,759 --> 00:24:59,759
Speaker 3: be asking me he.

442
00:24:59,719 --> 00:25:03,839
Speaker 5: Gets a little defensive, he gets a little irritated, you know,

443
00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:07,519
Speaker 5: kind of just like, here we go again with your

444
00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:08,319
Speaker 5: trust issues.

445
00:25:08,919 --> 00:25:11,839
Speaker 3: So these your issues, because these are trust issues rather

446
00:25:11,919 --> 00:25:12,999
Speaker 3: than reality issues.

447
00:25:13,279 --> 00:25:15,679
Speaker 5: I feel like it took him longer than I would

448
00:25:15,719 --> 00:25:18,919
Speaker 5: have liked for him to take responsibility for talking to

449
00:25:18,959 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 5: the woman that he had an affair with and how

450
00:25:21,159 --> 00:25:23,599
Speaker 5: it came out. He talked about how them talking again

451
00:25:23,719 --> 00:25:28,759
Speaker 5: after that tumult was very healing for him because he

452
00:25:28,799 --> 00:25:33,919
Speaker 5: felt like everybody had been very scarred after that situation,

453
00:25:34,479 --> 00:25:36,719
Speaker 5: and he felt bad that she had to quit work

454
00:25:37,199 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 5: and they just never talked again. So he said that

455
00:25:40,399 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 5: talking to her again felt almost like a weight had

456
00:25:43,159 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 5: been lifted off of him to know that she was okay,

457
00:25:46,519 --> 00:25:49,319
Speaker 5: and for her to know that he was okay. I

458
00:25:49,399 --> 00:25:51,079
Speaker 5: pressed him, like, well, why are you looking at her

459
00:25:51,199 --> 00:25:54,199
Speaker 5: videos anyway? It's like he failed to see that he

460
00:25:54,279 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 5: created the situation by unblocking her, by responding to her,

461
00:25:59,159 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 5: by being the one who initiated the sexual content. And

462
00:26:03,399 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 5: it's just so confusing because our relationship to me feels

463
00:26:06,959 --> 00:26:07,839
Speaker 5: strong and healthy.

464
00:26:08,239 --> 00:26:10,319
Speaker 1: Can you tell us about the strong and healthy parts.

465
00:26:10,399 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's someone that we can sit on the couch

466
00:26:14,639 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 5: and have conversations. We respect each other. We still have

467
00:26:18,159 --> 00:26:21,239
Speaker 5: a sex life that's fun and great, very attractive to

468
00:26:21,239 --> 00:26:26,679
Speaker 5: each other. Still, we're partners. We plan our lives, we

469
00:26:26,759 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 5: do for the kids. We're very invested in our family

470
00:26:30,479 --> 00:26:33,239
Speaker 5: life and making it a good wholesome home for these

471
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 5: kids and having stability. We have a lot of physical

472
00:26:37,959 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 5: affection towards each other, hugging, a lot, you know, kissing.

473
00:26:41,639 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 1: How much do you share your inner life with him?

474
00:26:45,199 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 5: Not that much, Honestly, I don't know. I guess I

475
00:26:47,639 --> 00:26:52,159
Speaker 5: shouldn't say that. We talk a lot about family and

476
00:26:52,199 --> 00:26:57,599
Speaker 5: feelings that come up, and we can process arguments pretty easily.

477
00:26:58,439 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 5: I don't share with him a lot of like my

478
00:27:04,279 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 5: psychological stuff. I guess I'm trying to take some computer

479
00:27:10,239 --> 00:27:13,999
Speaker 5: classes to sharpen my toolbox and skills so I can

480
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,479
Speaker 5: get out of house cleaning. And he's been a little

481
00:27:17,479 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 5: bit supportive of that, but he doesn't fully take an

482
00:27:20,879 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 5: interest in it. And I've taken a creative writing class.

483
00:27:24,239 --> 00:27:26,279
Speaker 5: He doesn't ask a lot about that.

484
00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 3: I think it's possible that he still doesn't fully understand

485
00:27:31,839 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 3: how it impacts you that he was in touch with

486
00:27:36,279 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 3: that woman he had the affair with and it's possible

487
00:27:39,199 --> 00:27:43,039
Speaker 3: he doesn't fully understand because he didn't innately fully understand,

488
00:27:43,039 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 3: and you didn't fully explain it because you're hesitant to

489
00:27:47,719 --> 00:27:52,079
Speaker 3: talk about your feelings or your psychology as it were.

490
00:27:52,679 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 3: You're not fully sharing enough with him in order to

491
00:27:56,959 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 3: see whether he can get it.

492
00:27:58,559 --> 00:28:00,319
Speaker 5: I feel like when I have opened up, it was

493
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:04,839
Speaker 5: probably twinged with my anger about it, which turned him off.

494
00:28:05,079 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 5: You know, none of the kids were home and we

495
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 5: were just yelling at each other. There are moments of like,

496
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 5: how much that hurt me?

497
00:28:12,719 --> 00:28:15,039
Speaker 3: I don't even mean how much this hurt me? But

498
00:28:15,839 --> 00:28:18,279
Speaker 3: let me tell you why this hurt me, because here's

499
00:28:18,399 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 3: my history with relationships and the fields that I carried

500
00:28:22,079 --> 00:28:23,799
Speaker 3: with me, and the feelings that I have and the

501
00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 3: hesitancies I have. It's really explaining it to him in

502
00:28:26,639 --> 00:28:28,719
Speaker 3: a way that he grasped, not just saying I feel

503
00:28:28,759 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 3: blank without context.

504
00:28:31,439 --> 00:28:33,519
Speaker 5: I see that, Yeah, that I haven't really laid it

505
00:28:33,559 --> 00:28:35,759
Speaker 5: out fully like that.

506
00:28:37,399 --> 00:28:41,719
Speaker 1: One of the things that really strikes me about your

507
00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:45,799
Speaker 1: description of meeting him was that it sounds like you

508
00:28:45,799 --> 00:28:48,639
Speaker 1: had been very lonely for the ten years before you

509
00:28:48,719 --> 00:28:53,959
Speaker 1: met him, and I think that in some ways you're

510
00:28:53,999 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 1: less lonely being in this family unit. But I think

511
00:28:56,999 --> 00:29:00,479
Speaker 1: in other ways you're equally lonely, and maybe in a

512
00:29:00,519 --> 00:29:03,839
Speaker 1: more painful way. And I see that because you've been

513
00:29:03,919 --> 00:29:07,599
Speaker 1: crying as you've been talking about some of this, And

514
00:29:07,639 --> 00:29:09,999
Speaker 1: it makes me wonder about something you wrote in your letter,

515
00:29:10,039 --> 00:29:12,679
Speaker 1: which was at one point you both said to each other,

516
00:29:13,079 --> 00:29:14,799
Speaker 1: if it weren't for this baby, we're not sure we

517
00:29:14,839 --> 00:29:18,359
Speaker 1: would be together. What did you both mean And how

518
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:21,519
Speaker 1: did that conversation go between the two of you? How

519
00:29:21,559 --> 00:29:22,679
Speaker 1: deep was that conversation.

520
00:29:22,999 --> 00:29:25,639
Speaker 5: He's the one who would say that here and there.

521
00:29:26,359 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 5: Sometimes I'd be like, yeah, you're probably right.

522
00:29:28,519 --> 00:29:30,559
Speaker 1: Did you really feel that when you said, yeah, you're

523
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:31,119
Speaker 1: probably right.

524
00:29:31,559 --> 00:29:36,879
Speaker 5: I honestly think unless he did something major deal breaker,

525
00:29:36,879 --> 00:29:40,119
Speaker 5: I probably would have stayed with the relationship because I

526
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:44,279
Speaker 5: don't expect perfection in people. But it's funny that because

527
00:29:45,519 --> 00:29:48,039
Speaker 5: two or three days before I found out about him

528
00:29:48,079 --> 00:29:52,319
Speaker 5: talking to the A fair woman, it just been a

529
00:29:52,359 --> 00:29:53,999
Speaker 5: little bit stressful in the house. We were trying to

530
00:29:53,999 --> 00:29:58,079
Speaker 5: remodel the basement. Things were tense, Our baby was demanding,

531
00:29:58,119 --> 00:30:01,279
Speaker 5: and we were bickering, and we were sitting on the

532
00:30:01,319 --> 00:30:02,839
Speaker 5: couch on the day and he was like, I can

533
00:30:02,879 --> 00:30:05,799
Speaker 5: sense that you're not happy. We're not happy. Do you

534
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:08,599
Speaker 5: ever wonder what it would be like to live apart

535
00:30:08,879 --> 00:30:12,679
Speaker 5: but to be able to raise our baby as like friends?

536
00:30:13,159 --> 00:30:15,799
Speaker 5: And at that time I had kind of been feeling

537
00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:19,479
Speaker 5: fed up with just the stressors of life and longing

538
00:30:19,679 --> 00:30:24,879
Speaker 5: for part time parenting days, longing for space, longing for privacy,

539
00:30:24,999 --> 00:30:29,599
Speaker 5: longing for time with my older son, who I feel

540
00:30:29,599 --> 00:30:32,999
Speaker 5: like I've really kind of lost in the shuffle with

541
00:30:33,079 --> 00:30:38,039
Speaker 5: the new baby, And so we kind of like fantasized about, like, well,

542
00:30:38,079 --> 00:30:40,839
Speaker 5: how would that look like if we split up and

543
00:30:40,919 --> 00:30:45,919
Speaker 5: just tried to make a positive co parenting situation, And

544
00:30:45,999 --> 00:30:48,319
Speaker 5: then you know it kind of slept on it and

545
00:30:48,479 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 5: he came back, which is true to him being kind

546
00:30:51,479 --> 00:30:53,679
Speaker 5: of fickle, Like I don't want that at all, just

547
00:30:53,679 --> 00:30:55,879
Speaker 5: the daily comfort of having your presence in the house,

548
00:30:56,519 --> 00:31:00,919
Speaker 5: just reflecting on when I was single, how lonely it

549
00:31:00,999 --> 00:31:04,239
Speaker 5: was when the kids weren't here, just having your companionship

550
00:31:04,279 --> 00:31:07,759
Speaker 5: means everything to me, and I don't want that. Please,

551
00:31:07,839 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 5: let's work this out. And then you know, a couple

552
00:31:09,719 --> 00:31:14,079
Speaker 5: of days later on I phone found out about the messaging, which, now,

553
00:31:14,119 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 5: when I put the pieces together. I'm like, I wonder

554
00:31:15,719 --> 00:31:18,159
Speaker 5: if you was saying that so a given permission to

555
00:31:18,239 --> 00:31:20,279
Speaker 5: have the affair, you know what I mean.

556
00:31:20,879 --> 00:31:22,199
Speaker 1: The timing does not seem.

557
00:31:21,999 --> 00:31:26,159
Speaker 3: To It's like, did you have a chance to tell

558
00:31:26,239 --> 00:31:29,639
Speaker 3: him after you slept on it how you felt about

559
00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:31,919
Speaker 3: that discussion from the night before He came and said, no,

560
00:31:31,999 --> 00:31:34,399
Speaker 3: I don't want that, but where were you and did

561
00:31:34,439 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 3: your voice where you were?

562
00:31:36,199 --> 00:31:39,599
Speaker 5: And I honestly felt the same way when I really

563
00:31:39,639 --> 00:31:43,679
Speaker 5: sit and remember what it was like when my older

564
00:31:43,719 --> 00:31:47,119
Speaker 5: son wasn't there, just how lonely it was in the house.

565
00:31:48,479 --> 00:31:52,519
Speaker 5: It was just myself, you know, and just having the

566
00:31:52,559 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 5: presence of people.

567
00:31:54,079 --> 00:31:56,679
Speaker 1: Jennifer, I think there's a difference between having the presence

568
00:31:56,719 --> 00:31:59,759
Speaker 1: of people, meaning their physical presence they're in the house,

569
00:32:00,639 --> 00:32:05,639
Speaker 1: and having a connection with people. Yeah, and I don't

570
00:32:05,799 --> 00:32:10,079
Speaker 1: know that you have had the connection that you're looking for.

571
00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:12,519
Speaker 1: I think there have been moments when you might have

572
00:32:12,639 --> 00:32:17,999
Speaker 1: felt like you had some semblance of it, But I'm

573
00:32:17,999 --> 00:32:20,559
Speaker 1: not sure that the two of you have that yet.

574
00:32:21,039 --> 00:32:24,799
Speaker 5: It's hard to say. I feel like when we hang out,

575
00:32:24,919 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 5: they do connect with them. He is open with me about,

576
00:32:27,759 --> 00:32:30,439
Speaker 5: you know, how he feels about his family and how

577
00:32:30,439 --> 00:32:31,519
Speaker 5: he feels about us.

578
00:32:31,759 --> 00:32:33,479
Speaker 1: I don't know that he's open with you about how

579
00:32:33,519 --> 00:32:36,119
Speaker 1: he feels about the two of you. Or it could

580
00:32:36,159 --> 00:32:38,719
Speaker 1: be that he's just confused, because he gives you a

581
00:32:38,759 --> 00:32:41,479
Speaker 1: lot of different messages about how he feels about you,

582
00:32:42,199 --> 00:32:44,279
Speaker 1: and so it could be that he's not being completely

583
00:32:44,319 --> 00:32:47,119
Speaker 1: open and so he compensates by kind of flipping back

584
00:32:47,159 --> 00:32:49,479
Speaker 1: and forth. Or it could be that he truly is

585
00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:54,319
Speaker 1: just confused and he doesn't have a filter, and so

586
00:32:54,439 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: he tells you what he's feeling in the moment without

587
00:32:57,999 --> 00:33:01,359
Speaker 1: considering how it might land on you and what the

588
00:33:01,919 --> 00:33:04,679
Speaker 1: effect would be on you of having to hear these

589
00:33:04,759 --> 00:33:08,279
Speaker 1: very contradictory messages from one night of hey, you know,

590
00:33:08,359 --> 00:33:11,759
Speaker 1: I'm thinking maybe we should live apart two Oh no,

591
00:33:12,519 --> 00:33:15,359
Speaker 1: I really don't want that, and then almost asking you

592
00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:18,279
Speaker 1: to stay with him, even though he was the one

593
00:33:18,279 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 1: who proposed the idea.

594
00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:23,399
Speaker 3: Yeah, which is a replication of what happened in that

595
00:33:23,879 --> 00:33:27,239
Speaker 3: quick breakup that you know he did it all by himself,

596
00:33:27,279 --> 00:33:29,319
Speaker 3: Like he did the breakup and the comeback by himself,

597
00:33:29,519 --> 00:33:33,199
Speaker 3: same thing here he does the potential theoretical breakup and

598
00:33:33,239 --> 00:33:35,879
Speaker 3: then coming back by himself. He goes through these movements,

599
00:33:35,919 --> 00:33:36,919
Speaker 3: but they don't include you.

600
00:33:37,919 --> 00:33:40,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's hard. You know, it's only been six

601
00:33:40,439 --> 00:33:44,119
Speaker 5: months since then. Right now, it feels like we're in

602
00:33:44,159 --> 00:33:47,519
Speaker 5: a great place, you know, and he's very affirming, like

603
00:33:48,879 --> 00:33:50,919
Speaker 5: I want you in my life. You're everything to me,

604
00:33:52,279 --> 00:33:54,679
Speaker 5: you know, you make this household run, You're You're the

605
00:33:54,679 --> 00:33:56,879
Speaker 5: one I want to be with. So I feel like

606
00:33:58,359 --> 00:34:01,639
Speaker 5: it's hard for me to reconcile the past with how

607
00:34:01,639 --> 00:34:05,759
Speaker 5: I feel right now. And I don't know going forward

608
00:34:07,479 --> 00:34:10,319
Speaker 5: how much to take into consideration, the PA asked, or

609
00:34:10,319 --> 00:34:14,559
Speaker 5: should I just keep building on what feels like a

610
00:34:14,559 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 5: good foundation right now?

611
00:34:17,319 --> 00:34:19,559
Speaker 1: Let's talk about something that's happening in the present, which

612
00:34:19,599 --> 00:34:22,039
Speaker 1: is that I think he had agreed to go to

613
00:34:22,079 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 1: therapy with you.

614
00:34:23,079 --> 00:34:26,359
Speaker 5: Correct, he hasn't pursued it, and I put myself on

615
00:34:26,399 --> 00:34:28,999
Speaker 5: a waiting list, But I haven't pursued it another place.

616
00:34:29,039 --> 00:34:32,159
Speaker 5: I literally just called one place, put myself on a

617
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 5: waiting list. It hasn't come to you, and neither of

618
00:34:33,919 --> 00:34:34,679
Speaker 5: us have pursued it.

619
00:34:35,079 --> 00:34:38,639
Speaker 3: Why do you think you're not pursuing it, Jennifer, you

620
00:34:38,759 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 3: or not? Why do you think you are not?

621
00:34:41,119 --> 00:34:41,999
Speaker 5: That's a good question.

622
00:34:42,559 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 6: I don't know part of me's scared to find out

623
00:34:45,879 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 6: if there's anything else that I don't know about. I'm

624
00:34:48,839 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 6: scared to discover another lie because I feel like if

625
00:34:52,399 --> 00:34:55,159
Speaker 6: there was another lie, that that would be the deal breaker.

626
00:34:55,159 --> 00:35:00,919
Speaker 5: And then it's like all these kids, like all these

627
00:35:00,999 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 5: kids are involved.

628
00:35:02,039 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 1: You keep talking about the kids, and I think that

629
00:35:05,279 --> 00:35:08,679
Speaker 1: prevents you from really looking at how difficult this would

630
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 1: be for you.

631
00:35:11,519 --> 00:35:14,759
Speaker 5: I guess a part of me scared if his true

632
00:35:14,799 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 5: feelings came out, like, yeah, I love you, but I'm

633
00:35:17,319 --> 00:35:18,599
Speaker 5: not in love with you, you know what I mean.

634
00:35:19,199 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 3: I'm also wondering if part of what you're scared about

635
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:25,719
Speaker 3: is that you said that your story is I'm the

636
00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:29,039
Speaker 3: one that never gets to keep the good guy, and

637
00:35:29,079 --> 00:35:31,639
Speaker 3: I think that's really led you in this case to

638
00:35:31,839 --> 00:35:35,999
Speaker 3: undervoice how you feel, what your needs are, what you want.

639
00:35:36,519 --> 00:35:38,919
Speaker 3: You come at things with him as I can't ask

640
00:35:38,959 --> 00:35:41,639
Speaker 3: for too much. I can't push for too much. If

641
00:35:41,679 --> 00:35:44,079
Speaker 3: it's very blatant, like you're about to have an affair again,

642
00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:47,879
Speaker 3: I'll leave. But anything short of that then I will

643
00:35:47,879 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 3: probably accept it. Because my story is I don't really

644
00:35:50,799 --> 00:35:52,879
Speaker 3: get fully what I want, so I can't ask for

645
00:35:52,959 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 3: too much, and I think it becomes a self fulfilling

646
00:35:55,799 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 3: prophecy where you're with someone who maybe can give you

647
00:35:59,359 --> 00:36:01,439
Speaker 3: what you want, but if you don't ask for it,

648
00:36:01,999 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 3: then you'll never know.

649
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:08,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, Yeah, that resonates with me. It's definitely some truth

650
00:36:08,399 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 5: in there.

651
00:36:10,879 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 1: I think the other truth is that you're worried that

652
00:36:13,919 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 1: a truth will come out from him that will be

653
00:36:16,479 --> 00:36:21,119
Speaker 1: very devastating to you. But maybe your other fear is

654
00:36:21,159 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: that your truth will come out and if you went

655
00:36:25,359 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: to therapy, you might get more clear about what you

656
00:36:29,439 --> 00:36:34,479
Speaker 1: want and whether he is the person that meets those needs.

657
00:36:34,799 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, that could be. Yeah. I feel so powerless in

658
00:36:38,359 --> 00:36:43,519
Speaker 5: a way because of my financial situation. I feel like

659
00:36:45,279 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 5: if I did uncover that this wasn't something that I

660
00:36:47,959 --> 00:36:51,359
Speaker 5: ultimately wanted, I'm stuck. You know.

661
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,399
Speaker 3: Was that a discussion that you guys had when you decided, Okay,

662
00:36:54,439 --> 00:36:56,559
Speaker 3: there's the baby, I have to quit my job. But

663
00:36:56,599 --> 00:36:59,599
Speaker 3: if I do that, then I become very financially dependent,

664
00:36:59,679 --> 00:37:03,159
Speaker 3: and that scares me. What's something we can do. What's

665
00:37:03,199 --> 00:37:05,159
Speaker 3: an arrangement we can make? Did you have any of

666
00:37:05,159 --> 00:37:06,999
Speaker 3: that discussion with him?

667
00:37:07,799 --> 00:37:08,079
Speaker 1: Yeah?

668
00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:11,079
Speaker 5: He said he would upfront give me like ten thousand

669
00:37:11,159 --> 00:37:16,439
Speaker 5: dollars and help me get started if you break up,

670
00:37:16,799 --> 00:37:19,119
Speaker 5: if we went Yeah, and he's even talked about I

671
00:37:19,119 --> 00:37:22,999
Speaker 5: would buy a condo that you could live in and

672
00:37:23,039 --> 00:37:24,559
Speaker 5: you can pay rent to me.

673
00:37:25,759 --> 00:37:28,119
Speaker 1: So why are you screwed? If he would take care

674
00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: of that?

675
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 5: Right now, I'm only working part time. My older son

676
00:37:32,359 --> 00:37:34,519
Speaker 5: has gained a quality of life that I feel like

677
00:37:36,039 --> 00:37:38,039
Speaker 5: I don't know that I could give him.

678
00:37:38,599 --> 00:37:42,159
Speaker 3: But you've also mentioned that you feel that your oldest

679
00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 3: son got lost in the shuffle with you a little bit.

680
00:37:44,279 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 3: So he might get a quality of life and stuff,

681
00:37:47,359 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 3: but he might have lost a little bit of mums

682
00:37:49,839 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 3: what you're saying.

683
00:37:50,959 --> 00:37:53,079
Speaker 5: Also, I feel that way. I don't know that my

684
00:37:53,159 --> 00:37:55,679
Speaker 5: son feels that way. It's hard to tell because he's fourteen.

685
00:37:55,999 --> 00:37:58,079
Speaker 5: You know, he's talking to one day and then the

686
00:37:58,079 --> 00:37:59,519
Speaker 5: next day he's like, I don't want anything to do

687
00:37:59,559 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 5: with you. I feel like he's had a good foundation,

688
00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 5: good great childhood that I was able to provide for him.

689
00:38:06,999 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 1: You gave him that.

690
00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:12,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, his father is a good person.

691
00:38:12,559 --> 00:38:15,679
Speaker 5: He's got a lot of problems, but our extended family

692
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,959
Speaker 5: is really involved, and you know, sent them to a

693
00:38:19,999 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 5: great school. He has lasting friendships and great experiences there.

694
00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: Good.

695
00:38:24,839 --> 00:38:27,599
Speaker 3: But then, Jennifer, you know you are not like screwed

696
00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:29,999
Speaker 3: in the sense of I truly don't have an option

697
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:34,119
Speaker 3: because I cannot support myself and my son. There's extended

698
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:37,159
Speaker 3: family support. You're not completely unable to do that.

699
00:38:37,279 --> 00:38:39,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

700
00:38:39,679 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: I actually think that the one way that you are

701
00:38:41,879 --> 00:38:46,599
Speaker 1: trapped is emotionally. Yea, that it's not logistically that you

702
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,199
Speaker 1: are very trapped emotionally, your old story keeps getting in

703
00:38:51,279 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: the way. Part of you says, wait, let me hold

704
00:38:54,319 --> 00:38:57,439
Speaker 1: on to my lifeline here. This is the only relationship

705
00:38:57,479 --> 00:39:00,039
Speaker 1: I've had that has worked in any way, shape or form,

706
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: even if it's not ideal, and I'm not going to

707
00:39:03,839 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: do anything to jeopardize that. To these two competing parts

708
00:39:08,839 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: of you, the one that says, my soul can't take this,

709
00:39:12,439 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: and the part that says, but I also can't live

710
00:39:14,879 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 1: without this.

711
00:39:15,479 --> 00:39:19,639
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true, And I don't know which one in

712
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:25,079
Speaker 5: light of taking responsibility for your choices and you know,

713
00:39:25,559 --> 00:39:29,159
Speaker 5: putting aside yourself for the sake of family, it's not

714
00:39:29,319 --> 00:39:31,159
Speaker 5: our in particular. I mean, the whole thing has just

715
00:39:31,199 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 5: been one big ball of suffering for her, and she's

716
00:39:35,479 --> 00:39:40,999
Speaker 5: just finally gained some stability, and it's like if, for

717
00:39:41,039 --> 00:39:43,439
Speaker 5: some reason in the next year, the rug gets pulled

718
00:39:43,439 --> 00:39:44,079
Speaker 5: out again.

719
00:39:44,439 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: Hey, Jennifer, who pulled the rung out from under her

720
00:39:46,759 --> 00:39:47,639
Speaker 1: by having the affair?

721
00:39:47,879 --> 00:39:53,159
Speaker 5: Yeah, her father, But I wouldn't want that to further

722
00:39:53,279 --> 00:39:56,439
Speaker 5: damage her relationship to him, you know.

723
00:39:56,679 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 1: But he made a choice, and there are consequences to

724
00:39:59,999 --> 00:40:02,559
Speaker 1: that choice, and you're trying to protect him from the

725
00:40:02,639 --> 00:40:06,919
Speaker 1: consequences of his choice without protecting yourself.

726
00:40:07,679 --> 00:40:09,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, And you're also not.

727
00:40:09,439 --> 00:40:13,159
Speaker 1: Protecting the relationship. You're leaving the relationship in a very

728
00:40:13,199 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 1: precarious place. It's dangerous to do what you're doing because

729
00:40:21,479 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 1: you're leaving the relationship very vulnerable to self destruction.

730
00:40:26,959 --> 00:40:30,759
Speaker 3: For two reasons, Jennifer. Number one, because when you have

731
00:40:30,919 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 3: worries and fears and doubts that you don't want to

732
00:40:33,839 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: go to therapy to get in touch with, it means

733
00:40:36,839 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 3: that they're there in your head. They're going to get

734
00:40:38,879 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 3: activated and strongly. But the other thing is, it's okay

735
00:40:42,999 --> 00:40:47,239
Speaker 3: to say a factor in my decision is also going

736
00:40:47,279 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 3: to be not just my children, but his, because I

737
00:40:51,759 --> 00:40:55,479
Speaker 3: do feel a certain obligation towards the daughter. It's okay

738
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:59,439
Speaker 3: to say that as long as you also say, but

739
00:40:59,559 --> 00:41:01,679
Speaker 3: what is going to be in the equation very strongly

740
00:41:01,799 --> 00:41:04,559
Speaker 3: is what my needs are and what my feelings are.

741
00:41:04,999 --> 00:41:07,679
Speaker 3: My concern is that you are thinking about the daughter

742
00:41:07,799 --> 00:41:11,039
Speaker 3: before you even get to think about out. Yeah, yourself

743
00:41:11,079 --> 00:41:11,639
Speaker 3: in some way.

744
00:41:12,399 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's probably true. I feel like responsible and guilty

745
00:41:17,319 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 5: at the same time, because we're the ones who messed

746
00:41:19,799 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 5: up by getting pregnant accidentally.

747
00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: Take away that word accidentally. We're the ones who decided

748
00:41:24,839 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: to get pregnant without thinking about it. It wasn't accidental.

749
00:41:28,479 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 1: The more you can tell the truth about the two

750
00:41:31,439 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: of you and your story, the more you'll be able

751
00:41:34,359 --> 00:41:35,959
Speaker 1: to tell the truth about the two of you and

752
00:41:35,999 --> 00:41:40,519
Speaker 1: your story going forward. So the true story is I

753
00:41:40,599 --> 00:41:42,599
Speaker 1: was very seduced by this idea of having a baby

754
00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: with him. He kept putting that idea in my head,

755
00:41:44,319 --> 00:41:47,519
Speaker 1: and I was seduced by it, and we both, as

756
00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:52,039
Speaker 1: responsible adults, didn't act responsibly. We made a decision. We

757
00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: didn't voice that decision explicitly, but we made a decision

758
00:41:55,879 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: that we were going to have sex without birth control,

759
00:41:57,919 --> 00:41:59,999
Speaker 1: knowing that we could have a baby together. It's not

760
00:42:00,079 --> 00:42:01,559
Speaker 1: rocket science, it's not.

761
00:42:03,879 --> 00:42:07,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's you know, I guess. Another part is like,

762
00:42:08,439 --> 00:42:12,439
Speaker 5: if I feelings, then I'd actually have to plan my

763
00:42:12,559 --> 00:42:17,439
Speaker 5: life forward. And my life has always happened to me.

764
00:42:17,959 --> 00:42:22,159
Speaker 5: I've never really designed my life, so to speak.

765
00:42:22,359 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: I would have to drive the car instead of just

766
00:42:24,279 --> 00:42:28,599
Speaker 1: being driven wherever somebody wants to take me or wherever

767
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: life takes me.

768
00:42:29,599 --> 00:42:31,879
Speaker 3: Is that not an appealing idea of you're driving the

769
00:42:31,879 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 3: car yourself rather than having to be taken to where

770
00:42:34,359 --> 00:42:35,439
Speaker 3: the driver wants.

771
00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:38,599
Speaker 5: To take Yeah, no, it is definitely.

772
00:42:39,439 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 3: You know, it's a scary position for you because oh

773
00:42:41,839 --> 00:42:43,479
Speaker 3: it's my car. I have to drive it, and I

774
00:42:43,519 --> 00:42:46,039
Speaker 3: have to then be responsible for the decisions rather than

775
00:42:46,599 --> 00:42:49,759
Speaker 3: deal with what quote unquote happens. I understand it can

776
00:42:49,759 --> 00:42:52,399
Speaker 3: be scary, but I want you to really think a

777
00:42:52,439 --> 00:42:55,959
Speaker 3: lot about this idea of the liberation of it, the

778
00:42:55,999 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 3: potential security you can find in it.

779
00:42:59,559 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 5: So a lot to face, but I want to I

780
00:43:03,919 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 5: want before we start planning a wedding, I want to

781
00:43:09,959 --> 00:43:11,879
Speaker 5: find that out for myself.

782
00:43:12,319 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: Can you tell us a little bit about what things

783
00:43:14,839 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 1: were like for you growing up. I'm just curious where

784
00:43:17,439 --> 00:43:18,399
Speaker 1: this story came from.

785
00:43:18,839 --> 00:43:22,159
Speaker 5: Yeah, my parents are, they're still married. All my neighbors

786
00:43:22,159 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 5: were church friends, a lot of playing outside kids. Over

787
00:43:25,439 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 5: all the time, I would say, it's really happy childhood.

788
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 5: And then my teenage years, we moved, and my teenage

789
00:43:35,879 --> 00:43:40,559
Speaker 5: yeers just felt like the family just splintered apart, like

790
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:43,879
Speaker 5: everybody was kind of in their own rooms. There wasn't

791
00:43:43,879 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 5: a lot of involvement on my parents' part. In my

792
00:43:48,639 --> 00:43:51,519
Speaker 5: early twenties, I learned that my dad had an affair,

793
00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,159
Speaker 5: and it was probably around the time when we moved.

794
00:43:55,679 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 5: So I don't think my mom has fully gotten over that.

795
00:44:01,079 --> 00:44:01,999
Speaker 5: She's just depressed.

796
00:44:02,919 --> 00:44:05,639
Speaker 1: Who told you about the affair? You said you didn't

797
00:44:05,639 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 1: find out until you were in your twenties.

798
00:44:07,119 --> 00:44:09,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, my mom just blurted it out one night. It

799
00:44:09,559 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 5: was on the eve of my older sister getting married,

800
00:44:11,439 --> 00:44:15,119
Speaker 5: and my younger sister and my parents and I were

801
00:44:15,999 --> 00:44:19,159
Speaker 5: sitting at the table after a rehearsal dinner late at night,

802
00:44:19,319 --> 00:44:21,159
Speaker 5: and I don't even remember how it came up, but

803
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,559
Speaker 5: she got real angry and she grabbed a knife and

804
00:44:23,599 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 5: she said, why don't you tell them about the affair,

805
00:44:27,559 --> 00:44:29,919
Speaker 5: And so my dad like confessed this affair that happened

806
00:44:29,959 --> 00:44:32,679
Speaker 5: when we were children. I don't know. I just always

807
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,959
Speaker 5: felt like she uses that to like blame him for

808
00:44:35,959 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 5: her unhappiness, even though they don't talk about it and

809
00:44:40,479 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 5: their life is fine.

810
00:44:41,519 --> 00:44:45,559
Speaker 1: It must have been a big deal, though, because you moved. Yeah,

811
00:44:45,719 --> 00:44:50,599
Speaker 1: it sounds like the family had a very integrated experience

812
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,439
Speaker 1: in that community and then all of a sudden, the

813
00:44:53,479 --> 00:44:57,479
Speaker 1: whole family moved and you guys didn't really know why.

814
00:44:57,799 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 1: But what were you told at the time, Since you

815
00:44:59,439 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: didn't know that that was the reason, it.

816
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 5: Was always just painted like Mom's not happy, she wants

817
00:45:03,839 --> 00:45:06,119
Speaker 5: to live in a newer house. After we knew about

818
00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 5: the affair, Mom said, yeah, I had to get out

819
00:45:08,399 --> 00:45:12,199
Speaker 5: of that neighborhood. I just have a new start. And

820
00:45:12,279 --> 00:45:13,959
Speaker 5: it kind of felt like it was my older sister

821
00:45:13,999 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 5: and my mom on one side, then me and my

822
00:45:15,839 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 5: dad and my younger sister on another side, Like we

823
00:45:18,439 --> 00:45:21,679
Speaker 5: were the more free spirited ones and they were the

824
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,959
Speaker 5: judging kind of not okay with that.

825
00:45:25,639 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 3: You might have been on team dad when you were

826
00:45:27,479 --> 00:45:30,879
Speaker 3: a kid, but right now you're replicating your mom's footsteps

827
00:45:30,879 --> 00:45:33,999
Speaker 3: in the sense that there was an affair, she stayed,

828
00:45:34,039 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 3: she wasn't happy. It's unclear to me that your parents

829
00:45:36,879 --> 00:45:41,199
Speaker 3: ever did the work to fully repairs and here you are,

830
00:45:41,399 --> 00:45:46,039
Speaker 3: so you are forewarned by your mom's experience that you

831
00:45:46,119 --> 00:45:50,119
Speaker 3: have to do the work to repair otherwise you might

832
00:45:50,279 --> 00:45:52,559
Speaker 3: end up like your mom, being sad in your room,

833
00:45:52,879 --> 00:45:54,599
Speaker 3: feeling lonely even though the people around.

834
00:45:54,679 --> 00:45:56,439
Speaker 5: That's a great point. Yeah, and you can see that.

835
00:45:57,959 --> 00:46:02,159
Speaker 1: And I keep thinking about your story about how here

836
00:46:02,199 --> 00:46:04,119
Speaker 1: we go again. No man is going to want to

837
00:46:04,159 --> 00:46:08,039
Speaker 1: stay with me. And I think that when you grew

838
00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:10,439
Speaker 1: up in a house where there was an unresolved affair,

839
00:46:10,439 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: and what I mean by unresolved is it sounds like

840
00:46:12,399 --> 00:46:15,159
Speaker 1: it didn't really repair it, and so it still lives

841
00:46:15,279 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 1: very much in the space between them. And you feel

842
00:46:18,919 --> 00:46:21,039
Speaker 1: that in a household too. You might not know what

843
00:46:21,039 --> 00:46:23,279
Speaker 1: it was. You didn't find out till later, but even

844
00:46:23,319 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 1: now as an adult, so you found out twenty years ago,

845
00:46:25,839 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: it still lives in your fai.

846
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 5: It does because I feel like my mom holds back

847
00:46:30,799 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 5: loving my dad.

848
00:46:32,079 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 1: It hasn't been repaired. You can't have empathy for her

849
00:46:34,839 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 1: in some way because it's so scary to go there,

850
00:46:36,879 --> 00:46:38,919
Speaker 1: because I think you see yourself in her a little bit.

851
00:46:39,119 --> 00:46:42,519
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're right. I think that's probably right.

852
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:47,639
Speaker 1: Just because your parents didn't repair what they needed to repair,

853
00:46:47,919 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 1: and their story is kind of stagnant. I wonder if

854
00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 1: you can move to a different place and create a

855
00:46:54,519 --> 00:46:58,279
Speaker 1: wholly original story that reflects more of the truth of

856
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: who you are and your experience, like the story of

857
00:47:01,399 --> 00:47:03,439
Speaker 1: I can't leave because I wouldn't be able to raise

858
00:47:03,439 --> 00:47:06,959
Speaker 1: my son. Well, you raised him quite well under the circumstances. Yeah,

859
00:47:07,519 --> 00:47:11,279
Speaker 1: And then I imagine the kids household. You're so concerned

860
00:47:11,279 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 1: about their wellbeing, and I imagine the kids in the

861
00:47:13,959 --> 00:47:17,559
Speaker 1: household living the way you guys did, which was when

862
00:47:17,639 --> 00:47:21,079
Speaker 1: you moved as teenagers. You said things shifted, The household

863
00:47:21,119 --> 00:47:23,639
Speaker 1: felt totally different, And I think that the kids in

864
00:47:23,679 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 1: this household will sense it to that there is something

865
00:47:27,359 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: between the two of you. Even if you try to

866
00:47:29,319 --> 00:47:32,479
Speaker 1: put on a good front, they're going to sense it.

867
00:47:33,959 --> 00:47:36,679
Speaker 1: And that's why I think not going to therapy and

868
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:39,079
Speaker 1: not dealing with this and not finding out who the

869
00:47:39,119 --> 00:47:41,199
Speaker 1: two of you are in relation to both each other

870
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,199
Speaker 1: and yourselves, is dangerous, not only for the two of you,

871
00:47:44,519 --> 00:47:45,559
Speaker 1: but for the whole family.

872
00:47:45,879 --> 00:47:50,039
Speaker 5: You're absolutely right. Yeah, You're absolutely right, And that's all

873
00:47:50,039 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 5: it was.

874
00:47:50,439 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 1: For me.

875
00:47:50,759 --> 00:47:52,079
Speaker 5: It was like a new mom and day weren't happy

876
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:56,999
Speaker 5: NOWAE was saying anything but physical expressions. Say everything you.

877
00:47:56,959 --> 00:48:01,279
Speaker 3: Know right, and you might even be able to model

878
00:48:01,319 --> 00:48:06,799
Speaker 3: something for Youma about speaking up, more about asking for things,

879
00:48:06,999 --> 00:48:10,399
Speaker 3: but for you to really take over the driving and

880
00:48:10,479 --> 00:48:13,199
Speaker 3: make sure that you steer the relationship to either a

881
00:48:13,279 --> 00:48:16,079
Speaker 3: place that is good for all or not.

882
00:48:19,759 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 1: I just want to check in with you. You were crying

883
00:48:22,439 --> 00:48:25,639
Speaker 1: a lot during the session, and when we started talking

884
00:48:25,679 --> 00:48:29,559
Speaker 1: about this idea that maybe your story needs a revision,

885
00:48:29,599 --> 00:48:31,959
Speaker 1: that maybe it's not so accurate, that maybe you're replaying

886
00:48:31,999 --> 00:48:37,959
Speaker 1: something that really isn't yours, you started smiling, You started

887
00:48:37,959 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 1: sitting up in your chair, your whole demeanor changed, and

888
00:48:42,879 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: so I just want to care how you're feeling about

889
00:48:46,879 --> 00:48:48,559
Speaker 1: where we are in the conversation Right now.

890
00:48:49,999 --> 00:48:52,759
Speaker 5: I feel like I know what I need to do,

891
00:48:54,119 --> 00:48:57,559
Speaker 5: even though I do sense myself like, no, don't look

892
00:48:57,559 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 5: at that too much, like there is an acknowledgment more

893
00:49:02,919 --> 00:49:05,119
Speaker 5: that I have some needs that are not being met

894
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 5: and I don't know if they can be met. I

895
00:49:11,919 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 5: feel more of a clarity about the story that I

896
00:49:17,399 --> 00:49:21,159
Speaker 5: tell myself and his self fulfilling prophecy. I feel some

897
00:49:21,319 --> 00:49:28,039
Speaker 5: hope I've been trying to deny this sense of unrest

898
00:49:28,399 --> 00:49:31,999
Speaker 5: in the relationship. I've been trying to talk it away

899
00:49:32,279 --> 00:49:37,919
Speaker 5: and rationalize it, and it feels good to know that

900
00:49:37,999 --> 00:49:41,519
Speaker 5: I have to look at it and have to look

901
00:49:41,559 --> 00:49:48,439
Speaker 5: at it with him, So I feel I feel pretty positive,

902
00:49:48,479 --> 00:49:54,439
Speaker 5: even though it's terrifying in a way.

903
00:49:55,959 --> 00:49:59,999
Speaker 3: So, Jennifer, we have some advice for you. We were

904
00:49:59,999 --> 00:50:03,039
Speaker 3: thinking about your story and your story being the one

905
00:50:03,119 --> 00:50:08,839
Speaker 3: you tell yourself, and we want you to write your

906
00:50:08,919 --> 00:50:13,399
Speaker 3: story differently. Specifically, we want you to go through all

907
00:50:13,679 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 3: the major moments in your life that happened, especially with relationships,

908
00:50:19,079 --> 00:50:22,199
Speaker 3: and describe them in a very active as opposed to

909
00:50:22,279 --> 00:50:26,479
Speaker 3: a passive voice. So you didn't get pregnant by accident,

910
00:50:26,919 --> 00:50:31,199
Speaker 3: you chose not to took birth control would be the

911
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:35,199
Speaker 3: active voice. You didn't just settle for Dan. You were

912
00:50:35,199 --> 00:50:38,679
Speaker 3: lonely and you chose to be with him because you

913
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,039
Speaker 3: thought you would be less lonely. You did a great

914
00:50:42,119 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: job with your son because he's You put him in

915
00:50:45,319 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 3: a great school. You allowed him to have a lot

916
00:50:47,879 --> 00:50:51,079
Speaker 3: of friends in a very big support system, and he

917
00:50:51,159 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 3: sounds like he's really thriving. You decided to take classes

918
00:50:56,399 --> 00:50:59,839
Speaker 3: and started taking computer classes creative writing for both personal

919
00:50:59,999 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 3: and professional enrichment. So everything that you talk about is

920
00:51:06,159 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 3: your choice. You own the responsibility, and it's a very

921
00:51:10,439 --> 00:51:14,199
Speaker 3: active voice, and we want you to literally write it

922
00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:19,119
Speaker 3: as an essay. This is your story, Okay, right, every

923
00:51:19,119 --> 00:51:21,079
Speaker 3: time you write something, go back and make sure it's

924
00:51:21,119 --> 00:51:22,999
Speaker 3: fully in the active voice.

925
00:51:23,359 --> 00:51:25,319
Speaker 5: Okay. Sounds great.

926
00:51:26,879 --> 00:51:30,639
Speaker 1: And I think that a part of you hasn't felt

927
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:32,599
Speaker 1: like you could have your driver's license.

928
00:51:32,999 --> 00:51:35,959
Speaker 4: So it's time to get your driver's license. And then,

929
00:51:36,199 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 4: as a newly licensed driver who has that freedom and

930
00:51:39,879 --> 00:51:43,919
Speaker 4: that independence, we would like you to make sure that

931
00:51:43,999 --> 00:51:47,679
Speaker 4: you are guided by your internal GPS in terms of

932
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:48,599
Speaker 4: wherever you go.

933
00:51:49,759 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: That means that you've said very clearly what your soul

934
00:51:53,839 --> 00:51:58,159
Speaker 1: can and can't handle. And we think you should drive

935
00:51:58,199 --> 00:52:02,759
Speaker 1: yourself to therapy with Dan because we think that in

936
00:52:02,799 --> 00:52:07,679
Speaker 1: this new story, you can handle your truth and you

937
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,199
Speaker 1: can handle his truth. And I think that when you

938
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:12,119
Speaker 1: go back and revise your old story, you'll see that

939
00:52:12,159 --> 00:52:13,959
Speaker 1: you handled a lot. It might have been painful, it

940
00:52:13,999 --> 00:52:16,919
Speaker 1: might have been difficult, but you did handle it, and

941
00:52:16,959 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: we think you would handle it much more smoothly now

942
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,119
Speaker 1: because you have a driver's license.

943
00:52:22,519 --> 00:52:25,159
Speaker 5: I like that it's a good analogy.

944
00:52:25,039 --> 00:52:27,999
Speaker 1: And we think that knowing his truth and knowing your

945
00:52:28,039 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: truth and being able to talk about it openly will

946
00:52:32,119 --> 00:52:35,999
Speaker 1: lead you to the destination that you want to go to.

947
00:52:36,679 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 1: And that might be a destination where you create a

948
00:52:38,759 --> 00:52:42,639
Speaker 1: really strong marriage with Dan. It might be a destination

949
00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: that looks different from that, but it will be a

950
00:52:45,279 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 1: better destination than the kind of way station you're stuck

951
00:52:49,799 --> 00:52:50,319
Speaker 1: in right now.

952
00:52:51,599 --> 00:52:56,159
Speaker 5: I like that. Yeah, that sounds good. I'm looking forward

953
00:52:56,199 --> 00:52:58,959
Speaker 5: to doing that. Actually good.

954
00:52:58,999 --> 00:53:02,479
Speaker 3: Well, it's one more thing. Given Dan has been defensive

955
00:53:02,479 --> 00:53:04,599
Speaker 3: about the therapy, we would like you to present it

956
00:53:04,639 --> 00:53:07,479
Speaker 3: to him in the following way. Look, I was thinking

957
00:53:07,479 --> 00:53:11,199
Speaker 3: about my parents. I was thinking how they never really

958
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,879
Speaker 3: fully dealt with the trust issue, and how because they

959
00:53:14,919 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 3: never did, it hovered between them for forty years. And

960
00:53:19,359 --> 00:53:22,199
Speaker 3: I don't want that for us. I want us to

961
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 3: deal with it so we can move past it. That's

962
00:53:24,399 --> 00:53:26,559
Speaker 3: the goal of doing therapy, to be able to deal

963
00:53:26,839 --> 00:53:29,639
Speaker 3: And if we don't talk about it with someone, it'll

964
00:53:29,679 --> 00:53:32,119
Speaker 3: hover and that won't be good for the relationship or

965
00:53:32,119 --> 00:53:34,119
Speaker 3: for either of us, and that's not something I want.

966
00:53:34,759 --> 00:53:38,039
Speaker 3: So I'm going to make an appointment for therapy, and

967
00:53:38,079 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 3: I'd like us to go and talk.

968
00:53:41,599 --> 00:53:45,399
Speaker 5: That's a very conscious way of saying it. Yeah, I

969
00:53:45,479 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 5: like that.

970
00:53:47,239 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 1: I just want to address the kids piece too, because

971
00:53:49,359 --> 00:53:51,959
Speaker 1: I know you're both very concerned about the kids, and

972
00:53:51,999 --> 00:53:54,559
Speaker 1: I want to assure you that kids do best when

973
00:53:54,599 --> 00:53:58,199
Speaker 1: there's not some secret hovering in the household. You know

974
00:53:58,279 --> 00:54:01,999
Speaker 1: that from personal experience, and I think that you're so

975
00:54:02,119 --> 00:54:04,999
Speaker 1: worried that if you go to therapy it will hurt

976
00:54:04,999 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 1: the kids. If you go to therapy, it will help

977
00:54:07,439 --> 00:54:08,599
Speaker 1: the kids.

978
00:54:09,679 --> 00:54:11,279
Speaker 5: That feels good to have that affirmed.

979
00:54:11,599 --> 00:54:14,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just having tension between the parents, you may

980
00:54:14,799 --> 00:54:18,559
Speaker 1: think you're doing a good job of covering that. Kids

981
00:54:18,559 --> 00:54:19,479
Speaker 1: are very perceptive.

982
00:54:19,679 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 3: That's true teenagers especially.

983
00:54:21,399 --> 00:54:24,999
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate this session.

984
00:54:25,279 --> 00:54:27,879
Speaker 1: You're very welcome, and let us know how it goes.

985
00:54:28,199 --> 00:54:28,599
Speaker 5: We'll do.

986
00:54:34,399 --> 00:54:40,199
Speaker 3: This exercise of rewrite your story is a powerful exercise

987
00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 3: that really changes how you see yourself and how you

988
00:54:43,919 --> 00:54:46,959
Speaker 3: see your history when you revise it to focus on

989
00:54:47,079 --> 00:54:50,999
Speaker 3: the action, on the choices, on the agency as opposed

990
00:54:51,039 --> 00:54:53,679
Speaker 3: to the passivity. And I'm hoping it has that impact.

991
00:54:53,839 --> 00:54:55,879
Speaker 1: And I think it's sometimes the reason that people are

992
00:54:55,919 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: afraid to see themselves as the protagonist in their story

993
00:54:59,879 --> 00:55:02,279
Speaker 1: is because of the subplot in the story, which is

994
00:55:02,559 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 1: I don't trust myself, nobody loves me, I'm not good enough.

995
00:55:07,199 --> 00:55:09,919
Speaker 1: And so once you start to rewrite the entirety of

996
00:55:09,959 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: the story, you start to see, wait a minute, I

997
00:55:12,359 --> 00:55:16,079
Speaker 1: am the protagonist, and I am very capable and competent,

998
00:55:16,759 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 1: and I get to make different choices this time.

999
00:55:20,479 --> 00:55:24,839
Speaker 3: The example of I chose to not use birth control,

1000
00:55:24,919 --> 00:55:28,439
Speaker 3: I didn't just accidentally get pregnant is a great example

1001
00:55:28,519 --> 00:55:31,079
Speaker 3: how you're talking about the same event, You're saying it

1002
00:55:31,119 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 3: in a realistic way. You can't rewrite your story in

1003
00:55:33,759 --> 00:55:35,639
Speaker 3: a fake way. It has to sound true to your

1004
00:55:35,679 --> 00:55:38,959
Speaker 3: own ears. And I chose not to use birth control

1005
00:55:39,199 --> 00:55:41,079
Speaker 3: is true and will sound true to her and is

1006
00:55:41,239 --> 00:55:44,639
Speaker 3: very different than I accidentally got pregnant. So it's a

1007
00:55:44,639 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 3: great example of that pivot. It's very different messaging about

1008
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:49,519
Speaker 3: who you are and how you function.

1009
00:55:50,759 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I would say the last thing is that

1010
00:55:52,399 --> 00:55:56,199
Speaker 1: she wants honesty from Dan, But I think first she's

1011
00:55:56,199 --> 00:55:59,399
Speaker 1: going to need to be honest with herself, and she's

1012
00:55:59,479 --> 00:56:04,199
Speaker 1: rewriting her story without judgment. There's no shame here. It's

1013
00:56:04,399 --> 00:56:07,199
Speaker 1: I made some decisions. Some of them were really good decisions.

1014
00:56:07,319 --> 00:56:09,679
Speaker 1: Some of them were decisions I might make differ differently,

1015
00:56:10,559 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: but they were mine, and I'm going to be more

1016
00:56:13,319 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 1: intentional about the decisions that I make now that I

1017
00:56:15,919 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: have my driver's license. So I'm really excited to see

1018
00:56:18,879 --> 00:56:21,479
Speaker 1: how she rewrites this story and what that does for

1019
00:56:21,559 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 1: her in terms of reframing what she wants to do

1020
00:56:24,479 --> 00:56:25,159
Speaker 1: in this moment.

1021
00:56:29,479 --> 00:56:32,599
Speaker 4: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

1022
00:56:32,639 --> 00:56:33,999
Speaker 4: be back after a short break.

1023
00:56:45,799 --> 00:56:48,559
Speaker 3: So we heard back from Jennifer. We sent her to

1024
00:56:48,599 --> 00:56:51,399
Speaker 3: remind you to driving school. Let's see what she picked up.

1025
00:56:52,639 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 5: Hi, Laurie and Guy, I'm calling to give you an

1026
00:56:54,919 --> 00:56:57,999
Speaker 5: update on the hallmark that you gave me. I had

1027
00:56:57,999 --> 00:57:01,919
Speaker 5: the therapy talk with my fiance and it went really well.

1028
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,879
Speaker 5: I used your advice on framing it in the context

1029
00:57:05,879 --> 00:57:10,839
Speaker 5: of my parents' unresolved issues and how I didn't want

1030
00:57:11,039 --> 00:57:14,159
Speaker 5: distrust and resentment to build over the years, and he

1031
00:57:14,319 --> 00:57:18,319
Speaker 5: was very open to going to therapy and actually seemed

1032
00:57:19,039 --> 00:57:20,959
Speaker 5: like it's something he really wanted to do. He thought

1033
00:57:20,959 --> 00:57:22,839
Speaker 5: it was a good idea that we do that before

1034
00:57:23,599 --> 00:57:26,719
Speaker 5: we get married, and we agreed to talk about everything

1035
00:57:26,719 --> 00:57:31,239
Speaker 5: that's happened over the past year with the indiscrestions on

1036
00:57:31,279 --> 00:57:36,679
Speaker 5: Instagram and the situation of adjusting to the household with

1037
00:57:36,719 --> 00:57:40,319
Speaker 5: the kids, and the time where we had talked about

1038
00:57:40,399 --> 00:57:41,159
Speaker 5: living separately.

1039
00:57:42,079 --> 00:57:44,239
Speaker 1: So I'm excited about that. As far as the other

1040
00:57:44,319 --> 00:57:44,759
Speaker 1: part of the.

1041
00:57:44,679 --> 00:57:47,479
Speaker 5: Homework goes with the writing assignment, where I write in

1042
00:57:47,519 --> 00:57:51,759
Speaker 5: the active, I actually found it very empowering. Especially it

1043
00:57:51,839 --> 00:57:53,879
Speaker 5: kind of gave me a sense of security knowing that

1044
00:57:54,559 --> 00:57:57,959
Speaker 5: I have such decision making power in my own life.

1045
00:57:58,359 --> 00:58:01,359
Speaker 5: Silly as that sounds, but it did bring up some

1046
00:58:01,479 --> 00:58:05,199
Speaker 5: shame for me. I had the sense of why didn't

1047
00:58:05,239 --> 00:58:09,119
Speaker 5: I think of this sooner? And how different could crossroads

1048
00:58:09,119 --> 00:58:12,839
Speaker 5: of myne my life been had I been more decisive

1049
00:58:12,959 --> 00:58:14,799
Speaker 5: and not just sort of went with the flow or

1050
00:58:14,799 --> 00:58:17,519
Speaker 5: deferred to others around me as far as how to

1051
00:58:17,519 --> 00:58:20,599
Speaker 5: make my decisions. I wound up thinking of my mom

1052
00:58:20,799 --> 00:58:24,439
Speaker 5: while I was writing it and looking back on my life,

1053
00:58:24,479 --> 00:58:27,319
Speaker 5: and how I wished that she had used more of

1054
00:58:27,359 --> 00:58:31,039
Speaker 5: her voice with me, shared her guidance. I feel like

1055
00:58:31,079 --> 00:58:34,279
Speaker 5: I was a little bit left to the wind in

1056
00:58:34,279 --> 00:58:36,879
Speaker 5: my teenage years by my parents, feel like they were

1057
00:58:36,879 --> 00:58:40,599
Speaker 5: both kind of disappeared in a way. So I've decided

1058
00:58:40,599 --> 00:58:42,839
Speaker 5: to go to individual therapy as well to deal with

1059
00:58:42,879 --> 00:58:46,519
Speaker 5: these unresolved issues. I'm looking forward to the therapy with

1060
00:58:46,599 --> 00:58:50,239
Speaker 5: my fiance. I'm scared of what might come up, mainly

1061
00:58:50,519 --> 00:58:55,439
Speaker 5: if there has been another indiscretion. But the good thing

1062
00:58:55,559 --> 00:58:59,159
Speaker 5: is that I'm wanting to face the truth whatever way

1063
00:58:59,159 --> 00:59:02,719
Speaker 5: it is, and I feel ready to be more in

1064
00:59:02,759 --> 00:59:04,599
Speaker 5: the driver's seat in my life. So I just want

1065
00:59:04,599 --> 00:59:07,359
Speaker 5: to really thank you guys. I really appreciate it. It's

1066
00:59:07,359 --> 00:59:09,319
Speaker 5: helped me so much, so thank you.

1067
00:59:13,839 --> 00:59:16,159
Speaker 3: I think the theme here is that it's not what

1068
00:59:16,239 --> 00:59:19,239
Speaker 3: you say, it's how you say, and it's how you

1069
00:59:19,559 --> 00:59:22,359
Speaker 3: convey sentiments to your partner when you're trying to say

1070
00:59:22,359 --> 00:59:25,599
Speaker 3: something difficult, and it's how you frame things in your

1071
00:59:25,639 --> 00:59:29,439
Speaker 3: own mind when you're telling yourself your own story, and

1072
00:59:29,679 --> 00:59:32,399
Speaker 3: changing that language can make a huge difference.

1073
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:34,679
Speaker 4: So many times people say, well, I can't get my

1074
00:59:34,759 --> 00:59:37,239
Speaker 4: partner to go do therapy with me, and a lot

1075
00:59:37,239 --> 00:59:40,279
Speaker 4: of it has to do with how they're presenting it

1076
00:59:40,959 --> 00:59:43,119
Speaker 4: and what the purpose of it is. And I think

1077
00:59:43,199 --> 00:59:47,159
Speaker 4: really making it personal about listen. I saw this firsthand

1078
00:59:47,199 --> 00:59:49,919
Speaker 4: with my parents when it didn't resolve this, and I

1079
00:59:49,959 --> 00:59:52,399
Speaker 4: care too much about us to have that happen to us.

1080
00:59:52,679 --> 00:59:55,719
Speaker 4: He really responded to that, and I think that going forward,

1081
00:59:56,159 --> 00:59:58,959
Speaker 4: she's going to be much more aware that she doesn't

1082
00:59:58,959 --> 01:00:01,239
Speaker 4: have to just let life happen to her, that she

1083
01:00:01,279 --> 01:00:04,199
Speaker 4: gets to choose which direction she wants to go in,

1084
01:00:04,319 --> 01:00:06,159
Speaker 4: and I think that that will bode well both for

1085
01:00:06,199 --> 01:00:08,439
Speaker 4: her individually and for her in the marriage.

1086
01:00:09,519 --> 01:00:11,759
Speaker 3: Driver's seat always feels better.

1087
01:00:17,119 --> 01:00:20,479
Speaker 4: Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week,

1088
01:00:20,719 --> 01:00:23,119
Speaker 4: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't

1089
01:00:23,159 --> 01:00:26,759
Speaker 4: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by

1090
01:00:26,799 --> 01:00:28,999
Speaker 4: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on

1091
01:00:29,039 --> 01:00:32,479
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

1092
01:00:33,079 --> 01:00:36,039
Speaker 4: You can also find us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb

1093
01:00:36,039 --> 01:00:38,519
Speaker 4: dot com and you can follow me on Twitter at

1094
01:00:38,559 --> 01:00:42,959
Speaker 4: lorigottlib one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

1095
01:00:43,199 --> 01:00:46,279
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com and on Twitter and

1096
01:00:46,439 --> 01:00:49,919
Speaker 3: Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd like

1097
01:00:49,959 --> 01:00:53,799
Speaker 3: to discuss with us, Big Osnool, email us at Lorianguy

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01:00:54,159 --> 01:00:56,039
Speaker 3: at iHeartMedia dot com.

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01:00:56,559 --> 01:01:00,159
Speaker 4: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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01:01:00,199 --> 01:01:04,399
Speaker 4: by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher, and Chris Childs. Our interns

1101
01:01:04,399 --> 01:01:07,959
Speaker 4: are Dorit Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison

1102
01:01:07,999 --> 01:01:11,479
Speaker 4: Wright and to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric.

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01:01:11,919 --> 01:01:14,679
Speaker 3: Next week, a man struggles with guilt over how much

1104
01:01:14,719 --> 01:01:17,519
Speaker 3: he should take care of his aging parents despite their

1105
01:01:17,559 --> 01:01:18,479
Speaker 3: abuse growing up.

1106
01:01:18,679 --> 01:01:20,919
Speaker 7: He called us names, He told us we were worthless,

1107
01:01:20,959 --> 01:01:24,399
Speaker 7: you know, like the physical abuse, like spitting in my face.

1108
01:01:24,519 --> 01:01:26,399
Speaker 3: Like He's just like, I don't remember that.

1109
01:01:26,599 --> 01:01:28,559
Speaker 7: I was just like, Okay, well, I don't even need

1110
01:01:28,559 --> 01:01:32,039
Speaker 7: to try anymore because you're going to continue with this

1111
01:01:32,119 --> 01:01:33,679
Speaker 7: behavior and I just don't.

1112
01:01:33,839 --> 01:01:35,039
Speaker 3: I don't want to be part of that.

1113
01:01:35,399 --> 01:01:37,479
Speaker 4: We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

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Speaker 3: THEO Therapist is a production of Iheunt Radio