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Speaker 1: Quody Donors with Joseph Scott More. I can't really speak

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Speaker 1: for little girls, but for little boys. Having formerly been

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Speaker 1: a little boy, one of the coolest things I used

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Speaker 1: to like to do is to build a fort. And

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Speaker 1: it could either be a fort outdoors or if you

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Speaker 1: had a few dining room table chairs in my case

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Speaker 1: that my granny would let me use. All it took

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Speaker 1: was to take those chairs to a special area of

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Speaker 1: the house and throw a blanket over them. That's a

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Speaker 1: rudimentary for it. And you can have all kinds of

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Speaker 1: going on in your mind. You can be under attack,

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Speaker 1: you can set up defensive positions, or you can just

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Speaker 1: sit there and be in that space when all hell

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Speaker 1: was breaking loose in your family and you just want

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Speaker 1: a quiet, quiet place to escape to. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about case. Actually it's a disservice to say that.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about two cases, both connected both

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Speaker 1: in life and in death and in blood. Today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about two little kids that were found

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Speaker 1: hanging in their mother's basement. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is body Bags today. There was one location I

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Speaker 1: lived in when I was nine ten and I for

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Speaker 1: those of you that have, you know, know something about

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Speaker 1: my background, family history. I'd love to escape. I love

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Speaker 1: doing two things. I love to escape into books, which

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Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time doing. And I love

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Speaker 1: to go out to the woods and there's a peace

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Speaker 1: that exists there. But you know, for some you know,

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Speaker 1: for some kids, I didn't grow up with a basement,

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Speaker 1: but I've often imagined if you could get away, you

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Speaker 1: would want to go to a basement, perhaps some quiet,

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Speaker 1: dark area where you could, you know, pretend that the

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Speaker 1: rest of the world is not happening. If you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean, that you freeze that moment time you're

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Speaker 1: seeking that place of peace. And in today's cases, and Dave,

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Speaker 1: I want you to admonish me if I if I

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Speaker 1: say that in singular these are cases it's not just

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Speaker 1: a singular death. We've got two precious little babies that

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Speaker 1: have have died, and they have died. We'll go ahead

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Speaker 1: and tell you right now, they have died at the

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Speaker 1: hand of their convicted mother. Now, and this this is

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Speaker 1: I have to admit, this case was not on my radar,

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Speaker 1: and it popped up. And I think you and I

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Speaker 1: have some pretty strong feelings about this going forward.

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Speaker 2: When it happened September of twenty nineteen. It happened on

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Speaker 2: my oldest son's birthday, September twenty third, twenty nineteen. And

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Speaker 2: I remember the case when it happened because it was horrific.

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Speaker 2: But even from the very beginning, when you hear a

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Speaker 2: story and the headline is two children eight and four

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Speaker 2: found unconscious in their basement, trying to remember the actual

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Speaker 2: phraseology that was used because the children were found hanging

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Speaker 2: in the basement, and the immediate impact that is what

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Speaker 2: happened before that led up to this, was no one

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Speaker 2: paying attention. Was this an older child that killed a

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Speaker 2: younger child and then tried to kill himself. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there are so many different things to take off with.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And when you hear, particularly mental health professionals, and

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Speaker 1: they talk in these very clinical terms about the taking

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Speaker 1: of one's own life, there's two there's two kind of

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Speaker 1: markers that you look for and you listen to. And

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Speaker 1: I've had to listen to a lot of psychiatrists and

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Speaker 1: psychologists over the and social workers of the course of

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Speaker 1: my career when I was investigating suicides. And keep in mind,

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that we don't give as much attention

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Speaker 1: to homicides we do, but with a suicide in my

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Speaker 1: world of the medical legal world, we're kind of the

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Speaker 1: we're the lead detectives where the lead investigators in those

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Speaker 1: because there's nothing to prosecute, So you have to go

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Speaker 1: back and talk to all of those that are in

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Speaker 1: inner circle. So these terms, these markers that you hear about,

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Speaker 1: and this goes to what you just revealed, is the

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Speaker 1: idea of They'll ask suicidal ideation, does that exist? That

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Speaker 1: is the individual thinking about it? Okay? And then they'll

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Speaker 1: say suicidal ideation with vocalization. So there's kind of this

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Speaker 1: gulf that apparently takes place in the brain where you've

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Speaker 1: got an individual that's been thinking about it, but now

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Speaker 1: they say it. And that's like this kind of threshold

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Speaker 1: that they cross over and you get beyond the saying

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Speaker 1: and they begin It's one thing for somebody to say

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Speaker 1: I don't feel like going on. It's another thing for

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Speaker 1: somebody to say, I don't feel like going on, so

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Speaker 1: I'm going to do X and X in order to

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Speaker 1: facilitate that. That takes it to another level beyond that,

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Speaker 1: and so you have to assess these cases when you're

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Speaker 1: going out, and you know the underlying theme and I

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Speaker 1: know I've talked to you about this over our time together, Dave,

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Speaker 1: is that every death, every death is a homicide until

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Speaker 1: proven otherwise. And so we're gonna when you have a suicide,

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Speaker 1: I want to and you're being presented with this. If

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Speaker 1: I lived in a perfect world and I'm an investigator,

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Speaker 1: I'm showing up. I don't want the police. I don't

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Speaker 1: want a crime scene tech. I don't want even the

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Speaker 1: nine to one one operator that's dispatching me to a scene.

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Speaker 1: I would rather than just say it's a death. Don't

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Speaker 1: tell me that it's a suicide, because just say a suicide,

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Speaker 1: you're assuming something and you do that at your own peril.

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Speaker 1: I've actually had that happen to me where I assumed

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Speaker 1: that something was a suicide and it turned out to

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Speaker 1: be different. And from an investigative standpoint, that your achilles heel,

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Speaker 1: because there are certain things you have to do in

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Speaker 1: homicides you're not necessarily going to do in suicide investigation.

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Speaker 1: So your vision is colored automatically, you know the way

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Speaker 1: your brain is wired. I'm working this as suicide. I'm

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Speaker 1: working this as suicide. Along could be something else, and

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Speaker 1: how much more so with a double hanging, which is

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Speaker 1: something that is so beyond the pale of my experience.

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about everybody else. You can go out

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Speaker 1: there and you can find these outlier cases, and I

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Speaker 1: know that they exist. But from my experience, have ever

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Speaker 1: had murder suicides? Yeah? Oh yeah, they occur regularly. We'll

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Speaker 1: hear about them in the news. Interestingly enough, when you

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Speaker 1: hear about somebody that goes in and you know, like

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Speaker 1: kills their whole family and then kills themself, isn't it

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Speaker 1: interesting how it only makes it through like one news

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Speaker 1: cycle essentially. And these are big, big deals, you know,

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Speaker 1: in that whatever jurisdiction is, you've got multiple deaths in

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Speaker 1: one location, so you it's really easy, I think for

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Speaker 1: some people intellectually to brush things off. But I always

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Speaker 1: feel like that there's a suspect, and that's I'm jaded

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Speaker 1: and hardened to this. I always assume as an investigator

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Speaker 1: that people are lying to me, and that what I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to allow my lying eyes to dictate to me.

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Speaker 1: You know, perception is one thing, but can I prove

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Speaker 1: it scientifically? Back to the bigger question, have I ever

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Speaker 1: had kids? In my experience as a medical legal death

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Speaker 1: investigator at this age we're talking eight and four. No,

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Speaker 1: I have not. I have not had these kinds of

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Speaker 1: events that have occurred in my experience where I've had

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Speaker 1: a child that has committed suicide and certainly not some

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Speaker 1: kind of double event that that's so off the beam,

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Speaker 1: if you will, uh, this is you know, if this

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Speaker 1: were a real thing. Okay, if it were real, this

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Speaker 1: is the kind these are the kind of cases, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that people that do research on they would write papers

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Speaker 1: about this. Okay, a double suicide of an eight and

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Speaker 1: a four year old. Just let that seep down into

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Speaker 1: your groundwater just for a second and begin to think

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Speaker 1: about that. What are what are the odds you're going

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Speaker 1: to have two kids that are going to simultaneously make

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Speaker 1: a decision like that and in their lives and so

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Speaker 1: and listen, this is not like we're not talking, Dave,

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Speaker 1: about a firearm. Who you know, we have to say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, eight and four year old are going

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Speaker 1: to be able to wield a weapon. Now, have I

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Speaker 1: ever worked accidental shootings with kids? Yes, yes, that's a thing.

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Speaker 1: It happens with some frequency. Okay, but we're talking about

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Speaker 1: something that's really complex here, Dave. We're talking about with hangings.

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Speaker 1: You have to first off identify a ligature, a suitable literature.

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Speaker 1: Then you have to calculate is this going to be

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Speaker 1: sufficient to the task at hand, Like, if I'm looking

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Speaker 1: to take my life, all right, where do I tie

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Speaker 1: it off? How do I secure the knot where I'm

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Speaker 1: anchoring the thing? Then how do I tie a noose,

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Speaker 1: which to this day I've tried to understand. I remember

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Speaker 1: there was a case many years ago where I had

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Speaker 1: a guy that had tied an authentic hangman's news. You

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Speaker 1: generally don't see those, okay, where it's actually wrapped around

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Speaker 1: thirteen times. I took a piece of rope and tried

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Speaker 1: to do that, and it's I'm not I'm not a

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Speaker 1: navy guy, so I don't I don't do well with knots,

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Speaker 1: and I couldn't duplicate it. It's something that has to

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Speaker 1: be practiced. I'm not saying that's what happened here, but

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Speaker 1: you have to be able to understand form and function.

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Speaker 1: And this is really higher level thinking. When you begin

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Speaker 1: to think about it, are considerate. You know, you're talking

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Speaker 1: about placing a noose around your neck. Oh and here's

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Speaker 1: the other thing. How are you going to get up

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Speaker 1: high enough to do it?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Well, we have to find a couple of chairs. That

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Speaker 1: we're talking about an eight and a four year old.

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Speaker 1: And you and I we're both daddies and granddaddies. We

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Speaker 1: know what a distinct difference in height exists between an

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Speaker 1: eight and a four year old, particularly between a little

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Speaker 1: boy and a little girl. How are we going to

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Speaker 1: be able to assess that at this at this age

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Speaker 1: so automatically, automatically, bells and whistles are going off in

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Speaker 1: my brain and think the Lord above, all right, thank

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Speaker 1: the Lord above that in this case, these authorities that

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Speaker 1: were out on the scene, Boba, they were like, something

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Speaker 1: stinks in the state of Denmark here, you know it's

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Speaker 1: it's something smells bad about this case. This is not,

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Speaker 1: this is not as one of the friends of pathologists

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Speaker 1: I used to work with he said this all the time,

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Speaker 1: and it kind of stuck in my lex County says,

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Speaker 1: this is not as as advertised. And so that you know,

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Speaker 1: you're telling me that it's a suicide. All right, you're

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Speaker 1: telling me it's suicide. Ain't buying it. I'm just not buying. David,

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Speaker 1: you got me fired up with this case. You know

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Speaker 1: I can't. It's so it's so bizarre. I really need

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Speaker 1: you to rain me in, draw me back down.

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Speaker 2: To actually excited about doing it.

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Speaker 1: Joe. Well, it's just it, and it gets me. I'll

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Speaker 1: get up on a soapbox. And also, just please bring

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Speaker 1: me back to reality here, and let's orient everybody as

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Speaker 1: to what's going on here.

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Speaker 2: We're starting with the nine one one call. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of information that gets packed in at the beginning

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Speaker 2: when you have in this case, Mom calls nine one

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Speaker 2: one and says, I found my children downstairs in the

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Speaker 2: basement hanging, and there are several things that didn't take

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Speaker 2: place after that that really bother me. And I need

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Speaker 2: your first hand take on this for me personally, Joe,

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Speaker 2: And I'm going to assume that others need the same thing,

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Speaker 2: because from that nine to one one call, and from

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Speaker 2: what we learned after the fact is that when EMTs arrived,

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Speaker 2: these children were still hanging. And yeah, all I could

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Speaker 2: think of is my first reaction would be if I

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Speaker 2: were to come downstairs and see not one child, but

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Speaker 2: two small children and an eight year old and a

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Speaker 2: four year old hanging. My first thought would be to

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Speaker 2: cut them down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it would be. And I got to tell you,

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Speaker 1: I don't give two hoots in hell about how fragile

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Speaker 1: you are as a mama. Okay, just let me lay

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Speaker 1: that groundwork. These are your babies. They're suspended in the air.

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Speaker 1: Why is it that you are not moving Heaven and

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Speaker 1: Hell to get over there to release this pressure from

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Speaker 1: their neck.

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Speaker 2: And they would still be warm.

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Speaker 1: Oh, let me tell you something. Not only would they

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Speaker 1: still be warm, but these kids lived three days afterwards, David,

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Speaker 1: they were still alive.

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Speaker 2: You have evidence or first hand accounts from the EMTs

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Speaker 2: that arrived who could describe the scene as they see

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Speaker 2: it as opposed to what they would have seen. If

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Speaker 2: it had been me, they would have come into a

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Speaker 2: train wreck. I would have had both children on the

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Speaker 2: ground trying to do whatever I could, because that's what

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Speaker 2: everybody I know in my entire life would have done. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but that that didn't happen here. And so my multi

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Speaker 2: prompted question for you is one, have you ever had

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Speaker 2: a child commit suicide that you had to work and

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Speaker 2: child I'm talking under ten? Have you ever had a

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Speaker 2: child hanging? And have you ever ever heard of somebody

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Speaker 2: finding a child in this situation and not taking them down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let me break this down. So in answer to

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Speaker 1: the question part A, I have never worked me personally,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure I have colleagues out there that have. I've

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Speaker 1: never worked a case involving a child ten and under

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Speaker 1: that committed suicide. I know that they exist. I know

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Speaker 1: that they've happened. It hasn't happened in my world, all right.

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Speaker 1: Number two children hanging, Yes, I have, and probably two

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Speaker 1: of the most tragic cases I've ever had, and they

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Speaker 1: still haunt me to this day. I had I think

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Speaker 1: this child was eleven, and this was in Atlanta. His

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Speaker 1: mom was cracked out. He was left in charge of

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Speaker 1: all of his siblings, and it was right after one

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Speaker 1: of the Batman movies had come out, and he they

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Speaker 1: had no television. This was in the winter time. There

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Speaker 1: was no heat in the house. I'll never forget this as

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Speaker 1: long as I lived. This child would he had an

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Speaker 1: old jump rope, you know, the cloth kind of rope thing.

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Speaker 1: They're real inexpensive, And what he would do was they

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Speaker 1: had this house was really old and I had huge closets,

256
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Speaker 1: and he would tie off the jump rope, and he

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Speaker 1: would put on his batman mask and make a cape

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Speaker 1: out of a towel, and he would swing from inside

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Speaker 1: of the closet on the outside and bounce back and forth,

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Speaker 1: and he would have all the little kids on the

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Speaker 1: floor watching him, and he'd entertain them. Okay, well he

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Speaker 1: did this and he got twisted in that in that

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Speaker 1: rope and suspend the suspension, hanging with this thing, and

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Speaker 1: he died in front of his little siblings. And the

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Speaker 1: mother was out walking the stroll and this lady that

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Speaker 1: lived down the street heard a child crying in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the street. And the child is only wearing

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Speaker 1: a diaper, and memory fails me. I think this was

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Speaker 1: like in February in Atlanta day, which is rather cool.

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Speaker 1: This baby is walking down the street crying, and this

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Speaker 1: little old lady comes out and she knew about the house.

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Speaker 1: She knew, you know, bad things were going on. And

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Speaker 1: she finds this little precious child walking down the road.

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Speaker 1: She goes and scoops her up and little babies crying,

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Speaker 1: and she goes in the house and finds the other

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Speaker 1: kids in total you know, they're in total disarray, and

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Speaker 1: this child is hanging. That was the first one that

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Speaker 1: comes to mind. Second one, I had a child that

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Speaker 1: I actually assisted on the autopsy on. I didn't work

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Speaker 1: the scene, but one of my colleagues did. And this

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Speaker 1: was a kid that was on top of a tire swing.

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Speaker 1: And you know how kids will get on top of

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Speaker 1: a tire swing, put their feet on the tire and

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Speaker 1: then swing back and forth and kind of do you know,

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Speaker 1: move gyrate the rope and it and his mother drove

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Speaker 1: up and it had wrapped. He had slipped off and

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Speaker 1: the tire had pendulumed around his body and he hung

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Speaker 1: like that. So yeah, those happened, But Dave, those are

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Speaker 1: extreme cases where these are accidental events that occur. I've

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Speaker 1: had adults that have accidentally hung themselves and that's you know,

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Speaker 1: and that that happens, you know, I mean, it truly does.

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Speaker 1: And generally they get twisted up in cord somehow, or

293
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Speaker 1: it's just blind fate you know, that creates these things.

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Speaker 1: But that's not what we're talking about here, Dave. These

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Speaker 1: these two babies, the children by the way of Lisa Snyder,

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Speaker 1: were found hanging by dog leads in the basement, which

297
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Speaker 1: for me is you know, dog leads are generally I

298
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Speaker 1: found and she purchased these I think from Walmart if

299
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Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, or had purchased them online.

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Speaker 2: She ordered them the day before and tacked them up

301
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Speaker 2: in the morning of Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And these things are generally you can get them in

303
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Speaker 1: a variety at or time. If you think about a

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Speaker 1: central cable that runs through it's kind of like, you know,

305
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Speaker 1: a twisted wire of a certain gauge. The lower the

306
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: number of the gauge, the bigger in diameter or something is.

307
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Speaker 1: It's counterintuitive many times anyway. And they're coated with rubber

308
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Speaker 1: or some kind of rubber eyes plastic, you know that

309
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Speaker 1: kind of it's like almost like a conduit, you know

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Speaker 1: that that that you know contains these things. But she

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Speaker 1: had bought these things, and these have been used in

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Speaker 1: order to facilitate the hanging of both of these children.

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Speaker 2: Dave Joe. When looking at a case like this where

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Speaker 2: you have two people dead from hanging, and in this scenario,

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Speaker 2: eight year old and four year old, when mom calls police,

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Speaker 2: calls nine one one and describes it. She went upstairs

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Speaker 2: to call nine one one, the hanging stick place in

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Speaker 2: the basement. She never returned back downstairs. She calls nine

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Speaker 2: one one and never goes back down. Now would this

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Speaker 2: be a tip off to investigators that this is not

321
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Speaker 2: in the norm, and would it be enough for them

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Speaker 2: to actually say it out loud something's wrong here?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yeah not. I would expect her to stand

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Speaker 1: and deliver at that moment, Tom, if I asked her

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Speaker 1: a direct question, what and you know I hate to

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Speaker 1: watch question. Let's see, how could I phrase this?

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Speaker 2: Why didn't you cut him down?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Why didn't you cut him down? What was what

329
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Speaker 1: was going through your mind? What was it that was

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Speaker 1: some more important that you stay up here as opposed

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Speaker 1: to going down there. And let me go ahead and

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Speaker 1: tell you, ma'am beforehand, fear don't count.

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Speaker 2: She actually had an answer, Joe, Yeah, I got to

334
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Speaker 2: hear it, Dave. She said that she tried to tried

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Speaker 2: to do what she tried to get him down. Four

336
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Speaker 2: year old Brindley, little girl, beautiful little thing. Four year

337
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Speaker 2: old Brindley. I think weighed under forty pounds, right, okay,

338
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Speaker 2: and she mom didn't have the strength to get her down.

339
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Speaker 2: Connor eight years old was a big boy. He weighed

340
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Speaker 2: just south of one hundred and fifty pounds, and when

341
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Speaker 2: she couldn't get Brindley. She immediately just said, well I

342
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Speaker 2: can't get him. That's the story she told. That's what

343
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Speaker 2: she said. And I think about the mother's stories we've heard,

344
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Speaker 2: you know, mother's lifting cars off babies and things like that. Yeah,

345
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Speaker 2: this internal this much the motherhood strength is not just physical.

346
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: It's emotional. It's like allogical, it's every type of strift.

347
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Speaker 1: It'll trump just about anything that's out there. And also

348
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Speaker 1: response response, response toward other individuals that are coming into

349
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Speaker 1: the sphere of their children too.

350
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Speaker 2: Uh.

351
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Speaker 1: You know things that moms will do. They'll get in

352
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Speaker 1: between their kids and a pit bull. Uh. And you

353
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Speaker 1: don't think, you know, as you know, you're you're here

354
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Speaker 1: and you're thinking, well, I don't want to be subjected

355
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Speaker 1: to the pain of all that stuff falls away when

356
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Speaker 1: you're talking about your babies. You'll do anything, you know,

357
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,359
Speaker 1: and where where is that here? And I think for investigators,

358
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Speaker 1: you know, when they're hearing this, and I'm sure that

359
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: some of these investigators are moms and dads, and they're

360
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Speaker 1: they're thinking, you know, what, what's wrong here?

361
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Speaker 2: Why?

362
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Speaker 1: Why is it? Why is it that that you have

363
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Speaker 1: not done something? And you know, I do know this,

364
00:23:53,640 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 1: I do know that the sun. He had asked if

365
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: he could go down into the basement and build a fort,

366
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Speaker 1: and he had taken two chairs down there to facilitate this.

367
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Speaker 2: You know, we mentioned that earlier at the building a fort. Yeah,

368
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: my grandson Braylan, Yeah, has been in that mode. Oh

369
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Speaker 2: yeah building. Yeah, he will build a ford out of anything.

370
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Speaker 2: And that's what struck me as well. When you were

371
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Speaker 2: talking about that earlier. I thought, Yep, he's in that

372
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Speaker 2: zone of and has been.

373
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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I don't you know, you think about Connor,

374
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Speaker 1: who's this eight year old kid he's got We know

375
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Speaker 1: that he has issues.

376
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Speaker 2: And very specifically the issues of disability for him. He

377
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 2: has a speech issue, he has dexterity issues, he doesn't

378
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: not as and these are things that he's growing with.

379
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Speaker 2: And he is a big boy. I mentioned eight years old.

380
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Speaker 2: He's one hundred and fifty pounds. This is a jovial child, Joe.

381
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 2: But mom, Mom claim from the very beginning he was

382
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: bullied at school, bullied on the bus, did not want

383
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 2: to go to school, hated going to school. She laid

384
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Speaker 2: out all the reasons and even said he didn't want

385
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Speaker 2: to die alone. Her eight year old son bullied at school,

386
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,640
Speaker 2: hates school, wants to die, doesn't want to die alone.

387
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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's break that down real quick, because here's the deal.

388
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Speaker 1: For every kid that is actually bullied, that's you know,

389
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,679
Speaker 1: truly being bullied in an environment, well, first off, by

390
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: virtue of this. And I know that this probably doesn't

391
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 1: matter to Lisa Snyder at this point in time. She's

392
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,719
Speaker 1: got more problems on her hands. But it diminishes, it

393
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: diminishes everybody else that are every other child that's going

394
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 1: through this kind of thing, right, and so, and it's

395
00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:01,200
Speaker 1: almost like that that's a default position many times bullying.

396
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: And you can say that, you know, and it really

397
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:10,840
Speaker 1: doesn't require much of a deep dive, you know, you say, oh, bully, okay,

398
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,440
Speaker 1: Well let's let's roll with that. That that superficiality many

399
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: times kind of clouds of judgment when you're trying to

400
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 1: do an investigation. And I think that she understood, yeah,

401
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,639
Speaker 1: and yeah, exactly, and so she's by that by virtue

402
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,200
Speaker 1: of that. It's my opinion that she's trying to put

403
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 1: the police off scent. You know, she's given them you know,

404
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, I got to tell you, Dave, there's something

405
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: that happens when you work the death of a child,

406
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: and I know this to be a fact in my

407
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: world of investigations. Most of the time parents, particularly in

408
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: the immediate one or two things happens, they're either nonverbal,

409
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: they're screaming so loud and it's unintelligible that you can't

410
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 1: make sense out of it. There is no middle ground.

411
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,560
Speaker 1: Most of the time, you don't have somebody that when

412
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 1: they're talking to you and you're asking them about the

413
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: death of a child, where you know they've got that

414
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: very kind of flat thing that's going on, where calm collected.

415
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: You know, they have kind of all the plot line

416
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 1: is there, or as they say in Hollywood, the through

417
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: line is there. You know, you don't have that, and

418
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: so investigators would pick up on that, and then you

419
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: go back to to the idea that these you know,

420
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,200
Speaker 1: you couple that with this explanation, and then these children

421
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: are suspended, still hanging when she goes down there. And

422
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: here's another little thing. Those chairs that I mentioned, h

423
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: they're turned over, and that's again that goes to staging.

424
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: It goes to staging because you can take I mean,

425
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: how much effort does it take. Well, if I take

426
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 1: the chair and I lay it on its side like this,

427
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: it's gonna look like they kicked the chair out from

428
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: under them, you know, in some grand thing, you know,

429
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: like the scene with Brooks in Shaw Shank Redemption. You

430
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,119
Speaker 1: know where he kicks you know, kicks the yeah, rocks

431
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 1: it back and forth, and that's kind of the classic thing.

432
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: You're going to tell me that an eight and a

433
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: four year old child did this and the chairs are

434
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: both laying there, and yeah, it would be horrific, But

435
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: I would think it would be a greater horror if

436
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 1: you have to look back and say I didn't do

437
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: a damn thing about this to rescue my children from death.

438
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: So you know, for me, I think working a case

439
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: like this, I'll have more questions than answers, because here's

440
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: the thing. This would not have been a painless death.

441
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: This would have been something that these children would have

442
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: been fully aware of that the last bit of oxygen

443
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: was leaving their body. Their brain is screaming, it's on fire,

444
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: their chest no longer capable of rising and falling. They

445
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: can't take it in because all the while, all the while,

446
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: that noose created by a dog lead is growing tighter

447
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: and tighter around their necks simultaneously while the weight of

448
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: their body draws them down, and there would be an

449
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 1: awareness there. It would not be merciful death. But I

450
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: have to say, Lisa Snyder is faced with a certain

451
00:29:52,080 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: reality of prison. Brother, let me kind of break this

452
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: down for you. Let me tell you what this person,

453
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 1: Lisa Snyder has said about her children, all right, in

454
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 1: this case. First off, she's told investigators that she thought

455
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 1: that her children wanted to kill themselves. Just you know,

456
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: think about that. Then she says that her child was

457
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 1: bullied at school. Connor specifically, she claims that Connor again

458
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: we go back to, you know, when I was talking

459
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: about ideation and with vocalization. She claims that he had

460
00:30:53,600 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: vocalized about taking his life. Okay, and then she said,

461
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: and this is a very profound statement here when you

462
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: think about it, that he didn't want to die alone.

463
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: You know, that's that's the kind of thing you hear,

464
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: like if somebody's you know, suffering from some kind of

465
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: horrible terminal illness, I don't want to be alone, you know,

466
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: in my bed when I pass on, I want my

467
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: loved ones around me or something. That he's this eight

468
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: year old is actually vocalizing this to her. And here's

469
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,719
Speaker 1: the other piece to this that kind of it's almost

470
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: like she's building out this narrative. She says that Connor

471
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: did not like to go into the basement alone, ergo,

472
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 1: he's going to bring his four year old sister down

473
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: there to accompany him. And of course for her in

474
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: her mind, I'm assuming this is her line of logic here.

475
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: She's trying to, you know, give the police a rationale

476
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: for what she wound up bearing witness to when she

477
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: went down there and saw both for kids suspended uh

478
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: in the basement. You know, you think about, well, how

479
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: does how does this work? You know, we're not we're

480
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: not talking about like two adults that have entered into

481
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: and these cases do happen. I've actually worked a couple

482
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: of these where you have two adults that have entered

483
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 1: into a suicide packt and but that generally involves like

484
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 1: an od uh uh there. It's smacks of what we

485
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: used refer to as a final exit death, which are

486
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: kind of detailed in this book that was written years ago.

487
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 1: You have all those, but it goes to kind of

488
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: a higher level thinking something you don't expect, you know,

489
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: from an eight year old child. And and here's the

490
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: other thing. We're talking about child that police discovered and

491
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: he's been diagnosed with praxia, and he's you know, he

492
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 1: has a difficult tom vocalizing things. His thought pattern doesn't

493
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: marry up to others. But he's jovial kid. And he's

494
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: also here's the other thing, David, he's also got dexterity

495
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 1: issues that kind of accompanies apraxia. He has limited motor

496
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: motor ability or it's compromised. It's not the same as

497
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: say a children on a normal developmental scale. And so

498
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: the fact that you go just at a baseline, Dave,

499
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: at a baseline, Why this is so absurd is you

500
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: think about again the tying of everything, the facilitation of

501
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 1: moving chairs. And then he would have had to have

502
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: if this were the case, he would have had to

503
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: have taken his little sister, gotten her up on a chair,

504
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 1: put a noose around her neck, and then kicked the

505
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 1: chair out from under her, or pushed her swinging out

506
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: away from her and pulled it down to whatever the

507
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: case might be. How do you explain that if this

508
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 1: kid has this this handicap essentially, you know, how do

509
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: you do that? Oh, and by the way, after this

510
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: eight year old bears witness to what this horrible thing

511
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: that he is alleged to have committed, then he's going

512
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: to get on the chair and do the same thing.

513
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,040
Speaker 1: How does it? Please explain to me, and this is

514
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: obviously rhetorical, Please explain to me, how exactly does that happen?

515
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well, here's the other thing. You've got two siblings,

516
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,800
Speaker 1: one eight and one four. They look at one another

517
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: and they go, Okay, we've got the nooses set up,

518
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: one two, three go. It's that the other option that

519
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: I have here. See, that's what really makes this so absurd.

520
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: There's so much planning in my experience with suicidal hangings

521
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: that takes place. I just I'm not buying it. I'm

522
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: not buying it, no matter how hard you try to

523
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: sell this to me. That's what it's so absurd. But David,

524
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 1: if this couldn't get any darker, please, I'm begging you.

525
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 1: I've already heard this line about she had mentioned to

526
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 1: somebody that and I'm paraphrasing here. I just I couldn't

527
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: do it anymore. I didn't want to do it anymore,

528
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,879
Speaker 1: whatever the case might be. You know, crimea river. But

529
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: this scene really took another dark turn here, didn't it.

530
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: Well, you know, in today's world, there's always a digital

531
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,280
Speaker 2: footprint that has to be looked at, and as police

532
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: were searching, they found out that Lisa Snyder had done

533
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 2: a number of things online. She looked up topics such

534
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: as carbon monoxide, hanging yourself, effective ways of hanging a person.

535
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 2: She searched episodes of the TV show I Almost Got

536
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 2: Away with It, which is fascinating to me because in

537
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 2: each one of those cases they didn't get away with it.

538
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 2: You're not really going to learn how to get away

539
00:35:58,080 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: with it, You're going to learn how they got caught.

540
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: But the other thing that pops up in this authorities

541
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 2: recover digital evidence that revealed photos and conversations regarding sexually

542
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: explicit messages about the dog performing sexual acts on Snyder.

543
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: There you have it right there, b s reality and

544
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: holy moly, Joe, you've got a woman accused of killing

545
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 2: her two children, ages eight and four, and add bestiality

546
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: to it all. She's going to have a great time

547
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 2: in prison.

548
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, because you know, look, I know people

549
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: judge folks that are that are in prison, and people

550
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: are in for a number of reasons. You know, there's

551
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: many paths that lead there. But let me tell you something.

552
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: A group of people that do exist in prison, and

553
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 1: just let this sink in, their mama's in prison. Their

554
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,759
Speaker 1: mama's in prison that lament every day the decisions that

555
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: they have made that have separated, that have separated them

556
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: from their precious babies on the outside. Okay, they sit

557
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 1: there and they think about that. Now, Lisa Snyder, who

558
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: has now been found guilty okay in a court of

559
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,320
Speaker 1: law in Pennsylvania, she's going to mark herself into that prison.

560
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 1: And the prison population is fully aware of what a

561
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: new inmate has done. They have ways of finding out. Okay.

562
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: I would suspect there would be a few people within

563
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,840
Speaker 1: that prison that would look at this mother and realize

564
00:37:54,880 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 1: suddenly that she in fact destroyed these two precious babies

565
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 1: because she was tired of it. Where you have that

566
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: portion of that population that every day would long to

567
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: wrap their arms around their babies that are on the

568
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: outside while they're in think she's going to have a

569
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: tough road ahead over Listen, folks, if any of you

570
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 1: are struggling with issues, or you have friends that are

571
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: struggling with issues. All you have to do is called

572
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: nine eight eight. That's nine eight eight. There's a lifeline.

573
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: It's a suicide and crisis lifeline. Please don't sit back,

574
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 1: You're not alone. There's hope, there's help again. That's nine

575
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:04,280
Speaker 1: eight eight. Just reach out, there's help available. I'm Joseph

576
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is Body Bodies