WEBVTT - External Exam - Disease, Dissection, and Death in Animals with Veterinary Anatomic Pathologist, Dr. Allison Watson 0:00:04.720 --> 0:00:09.600 Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:19.840 Hi everyone, Welcome to Mother Knows Death on Mother Knows 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:22.800 Death Instagram and the Grocerroo. And we always talk about 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.880 autopsies on people, but we never talk about autopsies that 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.600 are done on animals. On this week's external Exam, we 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:35.760 will be talking about animal pathology and forensics. An animal 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.080 autopsy is also called a nekruptcy and they're performed by 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:44.559 trained veterinarians who specialize in anatomic pathology. Today we will 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:47.599 be speaking with doctor Allison Watson, who is a veterinary 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:53.120 anatomic pathologist and assistant professor at Colorado State University Veterinarian 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.320 Diagnostic Laboratories. Welcome, doctor Watson. How are you. 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:00.480 I'm great, Thank you so much for. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.440 Having me, Thanks so much, Thanks so much for being here. 0:01:03.560 --> 0:01:05.360 Like I have a million questions for you, So we're 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.920 going to get started. Before we start talking about your 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.120 really really cool and interesting job, let's first start talking 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:14.440 how you got into the field of veterinary medicine. 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.560 I think I'm pretty similar to a lot of people 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.720 that you asked that question. I from a really young age, 0:01:24.840 --> 0:01:29.160 I loved animals, so I feel like that was kind 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:33.360 of the first career that I had in mind. And 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:36.479 I also had an aunt that I'm really close with too, 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.240 was a veterinary tech technician, so that kind of inspired 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:43.959 me to go that route as well. I feel like 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:46.680 most students that I ask, I'll say, oh, I've always 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:51.360 wanted to be a vet from loving animals as kids. 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:53.600 That's really cool. So did you get to go to 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:55.880 work with your with your aunt when you were younger 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:57.240 and see what she did every day? 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:02.360 I did it a little bit. My family always had animals. 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.200 We always had dogs and casts that we brought and 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.160 we brought them to the clinic that she worked at. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:12.040 But I didn't start doing any real shadowing or anything 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.800 until I was in high school and actually getting ready 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:17.240 to graduate and go to college. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.200 All right, So I know how the field of medicine works, 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.920 for example, just going to medical school. First you have 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:25.160 to go to college and you have to go to 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:29.320 medical school. Then you have to do residency fellowships and 0:02:29.360 --> 0:02:31.960 things like that. Is it the same for the field 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.840 of veterinary medicine or how does it work? Like after 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:36.400 you graduate high school, what do you do? 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.200 It's pretty similar. We go and go and get a 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.640 bachelor's degree first, usually in some science field, just because 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:51.280 it fulfills all of the prerequisites. For most veterinary schools, 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.560 they all tind of have a little bit variation in 0:02:54.680 --> 0:03:02.480 prerecs prerequisites, but like my bachelor's biology and zoology, so 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.880 kind of a basic science bachelor's degree. I had a 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:11.760 few students in my class that didn't end up getting 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:14.760 a full bachelor's degree. They got all the prerecs done 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:17.200 and three years and then applied to med school and 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.840 were able to go. But I think there's maybe at 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:22.519 least three in my class with one hundred and forty people. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:29.040 So after graduating with bachelor's degree, then you apply to 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.600 veterinary school, so same thing like medical school, and then 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.200 it's another four years four years of veterinary school, with 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.560 the clinical year being kind of the last year year 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.640 and a half where we're actually rotating through a large 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:48.080 hospital and all the different specialties. And then where it's 0:03:48.080 --> 0:03:51.440 a little bit different from human doctors is that at 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:56.280 that time veterinarians can take the board exam. We take 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:59.760 that in our last year, and then you can go 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:04.680 out in practice in clinics. So most of the time 0:04:05.040 --> 0:04:07.960 the veterinarian that's going to see your pets, your dogs 0:04:07.960 --> 0:04:13.600 and cats or even horses. Is they're not specialized necessarily, 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.120 so you can just go out and start practicing where 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:21.640 most or all human doctors do residency training after. It's 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.159 not a requirement for veteran muans. But if you want 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:29.120 to specialize, become a pathologist or any of the other specialties, 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:35.480 then we apply again for internships usually so one year 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:41.159 rotating internship through again similar to our clinical year where 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.479 you rotate through all the different specialties in a large 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.719 hospital and then go on to a three year residency program. 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:51.719 So pathology is just a little bit different than that 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.240 where we don't have to do the internship part since 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:59.760 we're not going to be practicing clinical medicine on living. 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:03.679 We can just kind of go straight from veterinary school 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.160 to residency. So that's what I did. 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.839 At what point did you decide that you were interested 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:13.240 in pathology as opposed to taking care of and you 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:17.000 do you call them patients? Still, we do. 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.720 We often call them cases, but I mean they are patients. 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.919 Yeah, of course, that's interesting. 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.480 Yeah, So I started at school wanting to be a 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:32.880 zoo vet. So either work in a zoo or work 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:38.200 in private practice with exotics, pet birds and pet pet reptiles. 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:41.279 I really like birds and reptiles, so that's kind of 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:46.120 what I started wanting to do when I was When 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:49.680 you're working on applying to veterinary school, you have to 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.640 get a lot of veterinary hours or volunteer animals with animals, 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.919 so you know, volunteering at animal shelters are different at 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:03.320 rescue have places, and then vet clinics as well. So 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.840 when I was working on that, I volunteered at the 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:12.839 rapture So Bird of Prey rehab Center near where I 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.600 went to college, and I was able to do e 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.400 dropsies there. So that's kind of my first exposure to 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:22.200 what an ecropsy was, and at that time, I still 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.720 didn't know that that was a career that anyone did. 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:27.400 I thought it was just something that you did when 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:31.720 animals die, and other veterinarians do this too, but I 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:36.040 didn't realize that there were veterinarian pathologists until I started 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:41.680 vetering school. So our first year of school, we take 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:48.560 kind of all their theology courses, so an adamy, physiology, virology, bacteriology, 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:52.400 and then we also have our first pathology course, and 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:56.359 that was kind of my first exposure to Wow, people 0:06:56.400 --> 0:07:01.320 do this as a career, and it really excited me 0:07:01.480 --> 0:07:05.120 in a way that clinical medicine didn't, which is kind 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:07.400 of It was kind of a scary feeling when I 0:07:07.400 --> 0:07:11.000 started at school, like, oh, I've wanted this my whole life, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.040 but it's not really speaking to me as much as 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:16.560 I wanted it to to be a zoo vet. But 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.960 as soon as I started delving into what pathology was 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:25.000 and what pathologists do for their job, it's kind of 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.400 light bulb going off my head, like this is a 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:33.240 perfect marriage of science and medicine and for me. So 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:38.040 I think by the time I was halfway through schools 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.960 when I was one hundred percent going home, I'm going 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:43.760 to be a pathologist and kind of go down that route. 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.240 I love that story. It sounds very similar to mine, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:49.360 Like I started school to be a nurse and was like, I, 0:07:49.440 --> 0:07:52.360 this is definitely not for me, and then I found 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.600 pathology and was like, Okay, this is definitely I could do. 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.000 I could help people still, and I could work in 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.600 healthcare but not have to deal with the live people. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.680 So getting to that question, is there any ever a 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.840 point that you see live patients anymore or are you 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.080 only seeing parts of them or when they die? 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.320 Yeah, and pretty much don't see any live patients. Our 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:23.320 lab is connected to the Veterinary Teaching Hospital that has 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:26.760 all of the all the specialties housed in it, so 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.360 if I needed to, I could go over there and 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:34.280 look at the patient. I do so. A particular interest 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.959 of mine is dramatic pathology, so pathology of the skin. 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:42.360 So I do meet with with our clinical dermatologists pretty 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:46.000 frequently and at least see photos up there living patients, 0:08:46.600 --> 0:08:48.520 but I don't usually meet them in person. 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.160 That's awesome. Yeah, of course you want to see all 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:54.480 that stuff because you're you're a pathologist, so it makes sense, 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:58.400 do you so? In human medicine, we have positions like mine, 0:08:58.400 --> 0:09:01.360 which is a PA, and we're the ones that dissect 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:03.880 all the organs that come down from surgeries, and we're 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.760 also the ones that perform the eviscerations for the autopsies. 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.560 Is there a similar position for someone like that in 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:14.200 your field or is that something that you just handle 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:15.240 completely yourself. 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.360 It definitely depends on what lab you work in. At 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:26.080 our lab, so we have three full time necropsy technicians 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:31.840 that can't help us if we want, so I've mentioned 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:36.800 and introduce me assistant professor. So we teach vetter nearing students, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:39.959 so they're required to learn how to don cropsy as 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:45.120 part of their training. So we're teaching veterinaring students on 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.520 our cropsy floor. So we often have them doing doing 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.840 the actual exam to learn. But if we're really busy 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.880 or it's late in the afternoon or something, then my 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:01.800 technicians can help or I'll have them do the full exam. Uh. 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:04.800 And then as far as surgical specimens, we do have 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:08.720 a whole separate team of technicians that do all of that, 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:14.280 the gross exam on those specimens and trimming into cassettes, 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.160 and then I go up to our histology lab. 0:10:16.600 --> 0:10:19.080 That's interesting, So do you do you have a separate 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:23.080 histology lab for the vet medicine or do you just 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:25.439 send them over to a medical one and they just 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:26.320 caught them. 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.160 Yeah, we have our own right in house, just down 0:10:30.280 --> 0:10:32.640 the hall from my office. So we have a we 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:35.440 have I think we have like five or six full 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:39.320 time techs in there, and we do our own aminum history, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.520 chemistry and special stating as well. 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.960 All in I'm really interested in this actually, because so 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.240 if you want to do if you want to be 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:52.880 a veterinarian, histotech, if you just want to do animal specimens, 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:54.839 do you have to have the same or do you 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:57.160 even know this? You have to have the same certifications 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.800 as one that would work in a hospital. 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.680 You don't. They can, But as far as I know, 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:07.440 I don't think our technicians do. But I have known 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:09.480 a few at another place I worked and where I 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:15.040 did residency that did that certification. But we for some 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.280 of our technicians, we just require a bachelor's degree in 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.000 a science field, but then others we don't, and then 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:23.240 we do all of the on the job treating. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.640 That's that's good to know because I always say this 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:29.120 on every single interview almost that I know all of 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.680 these people that have a bachelor's degree in science and 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:34.400 they don't know what they can do with it, right, 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.920 And this is just another example of a cool kind 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:38.800 of job that you could get working in a lab 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:42.240 with that kind of degree. So thanks for sharing that. 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.600 That's really interesting. So can you give us an example 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:50.320 of some of the type of specimens and necruptcies that 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.160 you do at work on a day to day basis. 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.240 You don't have to give us your craziest case or 0:11:56.280 --> 0:11:59.280 anything like that, but just more of an example of 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.480 the types of things that come across your desk every day. 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.360 Sure, and this can vary greatly depending on the time 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:11.240 of year. But I was actually just one knee cropsy 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.880 service yesterday, so I'll just give you an example of 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:22.200 what we saw yesterday. We had two cats, two three dogs, 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:27.080 and a rooster all in the same day. So but 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:32.160 you know, other days we might get a fours a cow. 0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:36.720 We do get exotics or zeus species, so we might 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.360 get a pet perry, a couple of chickens. We usually 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:44.920 see anywhere from five to ten cases per day in 0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:49.280 knee crompsy. So I looked this up because I can't 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:53.120 remember exactly, but I think we see around seventy five 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.960 percent dogs and cats in our lab, and then out 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.360 horses and then sheep and goats, some cows, and then 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:06.360 all the rest. So by far we're seeing mostly dogs 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.839 and cats at our lab, but that can definitely vary 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.800 on the part of the country that you're in, or 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.199 if you're in a more rural area where see a 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:18.960 lot more livestock, pigs and that type of animal. So 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:23.800 that's nee propsy. Our surgical biopsy service is really busy 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:29.440 at Colorado State. So we get around you know, ninety 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:34.600 to one and twenty cases a day. It is. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.760 That's a lot of surgical cases, actually it is, yep. 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:40.520 So and that's just not all from our hospital, so 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.920 we get a lot from the rest of the state 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.920 and other states. We get cases sent to us from 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.320 Japan even so we just have a pretty busy labs. 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:55.600 We have four to five pathologists on surgical scheduled every 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:59.320 day to take cases, and then we have one pathologist 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.760 with residents on our nee cropsy service. 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:06.280 This is really mind blowing to me. Honestly, you're busier 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:10.280 than a hospital some hospitals that I've worked at, actually, 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.479 which is insane. It makes sense. So you're seeing specimens. 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:16.920 Let's say, for example, you take your dog to the 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.880 vet and they have a tumor and they say they 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.840 want to take a biopsy of it so you can 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.120 figure out if it's benign or malignant. Like that would 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:27.360 be something that you would get yep. And what would 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.360 drive an that cropsy for an animal because for example, 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.440 like one of my best friend's dogs just died about 0:14:35.440 --> 0:14:40.080 a month ago, and she she was. She's a pa 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:42.760 actually too, so she's very curious as to what happened 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.560 because she came home and the belly, the baby or 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:50.720 the baby, the dogs, her baby, the belly was distended. 0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:52.480 And then they said that she might have had a 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:54.840 spleen tumor that ruptured and it looked like it was 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.640 filled with blood on imaging, but she would have had 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:00.200 to pay for the autopsy. So she kind of of 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.720 just like, what's the difference? I don't need to get it, 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:07.200 but is that normally what drives these cases is the 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.160 family wanting to know or do you do it for 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:11.560 scientific purposes? 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:19.160 Both? So I'd say cases that we get from from 0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:22.360 outside submission so at our lab, and I think most 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:25.840 labs are like this. Owners or the pet owners are 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.960 allowed to submit me dropsy so we don't have to 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.640 have a referral, so they can just bring their pet 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:35.600 straight from home to our labs. So I think that's 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.720 probably the majority of cases that we get. And usually 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:43.040 it's it's that same scenario where their pet seemed healthy 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:46.960 one day and then the next died suddenly, and they 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:52.520 really want that closure to get an answer, and then 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:58.920 otherwise it's for scientific interest or interest from our our 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:04.440 clinicians in the hospital, So why did this dog that 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.480 was doing so well on this treatment suddenly go downhill 0:16:08.520 --> 0:16:15.200 so fast and dye to determine extensive disease, so metastasis, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.800 and they suspect that there's metastasis from a malignant tumor, 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.320 and they want to know what organ it went to 0:16:21.920 --> 0:16:25.120 and how bad it was. We do have clinical trials 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.880 patients that we do need propsies on that are purely 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.520 for research to see how the therapy was working. And 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:37.520 then a lot of times there's concerns for infectious disease, 0:16:38.080 --> 0:16:41.640 especially in our large animals, so a herd health issue. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.200 People have chickens in their flock dying, they want to 0:16:45.200 --> 0:16:48.040 make sure that the rest of them are okay, or 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.760 figure out disease process to treat other animals in the 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.760 herd or flock. So it can be for a million 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.000 different reasons, but I think pet owners often just want 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.040 that closure and get an answer. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:05.879 Since you work at a teaching facility, do you try 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.560 to because I've worked at a teaching facility for humans, 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:13.800 do you try to kind of recruit the necropsies just 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.520 so your students could have exposure to something that they 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:18.359 might not ever see again in their career. 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:24.680 We do, especially from the teaching hospital, so we encourage 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:29.280 them to submit interesting cases or things that we might 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:34.520 not see. It's fortunate. So in our at Colorado State, 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:40.600 we do need propsies of patients through our hospital at 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.560 no charge to the client. So we use a fund 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.640 of money that comes from veterinary student tuition to pay 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:50.960 for that. So it's there a patient that's been seen 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.840 in the last six months to a year even and 0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:56.679 they die, then we'll do that at no charge to 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:01.000 the pet owner. So we have a be high caseload 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:05.440 because of that. But outside some measure, submitters that are 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.199 not patients of the hospital do have to pay. But 0:18:08.560 --> 0:18:11.440 we've at least since I've started, I've been here almost 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:14.840 five years, and we've never had, you know, a problem 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.440 with having enough cases to teach students, and we've had 0:18:17.520 --> 0:18:21.240 the opposite problem where we have too many cases for 0:18:21.359 --> 0:18:24.320 the students to handle in one day. So I know 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:29.760 that's different depending on what veterinary school you're you're working at, 0:18:30.840 --> 0:18:33.760 they may have very few cases and are recruiting a 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:37.760 lot more actively. We used to accept donations, but we 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:40.960 don't anymore. Just because we have such a high caseload. 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:46.280 This is so interesting when when I do an autopsy 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.919 on a person that the permission form is very important 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.760 as far as what we're allowed to cut and who 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.160 gives the permission. There's a legal next of kin who's 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.320 the only one that's allowed to sign it. It just 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:03.080 it gets very complicated times because for example, a husband 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:06.040 would be the legal next of kim, but maybe one 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.280 of the children really don't want the autopsy done, but 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.040 we would still do it if the husband wanted it done. Right, 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:15.879 So are there any kind of like who who gives permission? 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:17.879 The owner? Do they have to give permission? 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:23.119 Yes, so we need permissions. We have them sign a 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:27.440 forum that giving us permission to do the new cropsy 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.960 and that we're really careful about only releasing information to 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:37.320 that person, So we need it written permission if they want, 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:40.720 you know, they're veterarian to see the report or talk 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:45.280 to the pathologists. So that happens a lot where one 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.480 owner will submit and then maybe the husband will try 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.040 to call to get information, but we're not able to 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:56.040 release that. And then our cases from the hospital were 0:19:56.240 --> 0:19:59.840 a little bit more since those are often being used 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:03.440 for research as well, or for clinical trials. We have 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:07.000 a little bit more in depth form that they fill 0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:10.840 out where they give permission for tissues to be collected 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:14.440 for research, or they can approve for the whole animal 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:18.160 to be used for teaching our research. And this because 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:23.440 we often have requests from teachers throughout Colorado State for 0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.159 maybe a whole limb or ahead of an animal to 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:32.600 practice dentistry or to practice dissection on, and we wouldn't 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.000 want to do that without written and sign consent of 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:38.359 the owner of that animal. So we do have a 0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.159 little box that they can check where they're aware that 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:45.920 we may use this entire dog for a dissection purpose 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.520 we're teaching. So that's kind of nice that we're able 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:54.160 to give the owners that ability, But otherwise we can 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:58.440 use them signing. We can use tissues that we normally 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.800 collect for an hrompcy that we might do this topology on. 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:06.199 We can use that as part of a study if 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:06.520 we want. 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.240 That's that's so cool. This is just like really mind 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.760 blowing because I never really thought about it, and I 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:15.280 just I actually just wrote about a case in the 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.880 gross room about animal forensics, which we'll get to in 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:22.440 a few minutes. But I never really I just really 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:24.639 never thought that this was all going on behind the 0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:28.520 scenes for animals as well. When I took biology in 0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:32.800 my undergrad we dissected a variety of animals, but they 0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:36.080 all came from like Carolina Scientific or whatever, and they 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:41.959 were embalmbed and just smelled terrible. That smells just so terrible. 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.040 So you're saying that your students have a big range 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.160 of fresh animals to dissect or do they do them 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:51.800 on fixed specimens too? 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:59.520 They both, So in their first year they dissect partially 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:04.439 fixed dogs that that we do that don't come in 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:07.600 through ne cropsy, so they similar they purchase them from 0:22:07.720 --> 0:22:10.960 companies or we have some agreements with some of the 0:22:11.119 --> 0:22:15.040 local humane societies where if strays or euthanized, they can 0:22:15.119 --> 0:22:19.080 be donated. So they do have a full semester dissection 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:23.439 class on dogs where small groups that our new students 0:22:23.760 --> 0:22:32.200 will dissect fixed animals and to identify all the muscle groups, nerves, DearS, 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.240 and all of that. But then they throughout their education 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:41.560 they have smaller group sessions where they'll practice surgical skills 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:46.520 and joint injections on fresh tissues. So that's usually where 0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:49.960 we can they can utilize our neat cropsy lab for 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:51.720 donated animals that way. 0:22:52.480 --> 0:22:54.439 Yeah, I mean, it's way better to look at it 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:58.680 fresh different, So I always prefer that too. 0:22:59.240 --> 0:23:04.520 Yep, are students is in their last clinical year, that's 0:23:04.560 --> 0:23:06.800 where they have to learn how to ne cropsy, but 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:10.080 they often enjoy that rotation just to kind of review 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.840 anatomies that they haven't thought about since their first year 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.160 and see it fresh compared to fixed. So it's nice 0:23:16.200 --> 0:23:17.359 that we can let them do that. 0:23:18.400 --> 0:23:21.280 What's mind blowing about the field of batinary medicine to 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.919 me is, for example, for humans, it's we have to 0:23:25.000 --> 0:23:29.399 learn one species of a mammal and then you guys 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:32.600 have to know every single other animal in the entire 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:36.680 animal kingdom. It's just and I know because from biology 0:23:36.680 --> 0:23:39.959 we dissected things all the way from like an earthworm 0:23:40.119 --> 0:23:44.520 to a lobster or something, and a fetal pig and 0:23:44.560 --> 0:23:48.480 a frog's completely different anatomy and all these animals. How 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:49.920 do you guys learn all that? 0:23:51.560 --> 0:23:56.240 It's challenging, you know. We often say that's why veterinary 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:59.280 medicine is more exciting than human medicine, just because we 0:23:59.320 --> 0:24:02.359 get to we are able to learn all these different 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.960 different anatomies of all the different species. So, like I said, 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.120 we in our anatomy course they do focus on dogs, 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:13.760 which dogs and cats are really similar, and then kind 0:24:13.800 --> 0:24:19.119 of teach in different ways the anatomical differences between species. 0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:24.520 And then so focusing on for example, the rumin in 0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:29.439 or cow gastrointestinal system, which is is really different compared 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:33.359 to our carnivores where they have the four compartments in 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:37.440 their stomach. And then horses have a really different GI 0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:40.880 system as well, so different depending on what they eat. 0:24:41.040 --> 0:24:44.600 It can really vary. So we usually try to just 0:24:44.640 --> 0:24:48.640 focus on the main differences. And then you know, muscles 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:53.080 are all needing the same narrative groups and arteries means 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:55.160 name the same, so that makes it a little bit easier. 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:59.280 It can be a challenge though, I'm googgling a lot. 0:25:00.480 --> 0:25:03.240 Yeah, because you learn it once, maybe five years ago, 0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:06.520 and then I totally understand that. I mean that's normal, 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:09.440 every single person does that. I'm just trying to think 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:12.879