1 00:00:04,720 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy. 2 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, Welcome to Mother Knows Death on Mother Knows 3 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: Death Instagram and the Grocerroo. And we always talk about 4 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: autopsies on people, but we never talk about autopsies that 5 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: are done on animals. On this week's external Exam, we 6 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: will be talking about animal pathology and forensics. An animal 7 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 2: autopsy is also called a nekruptcy and they're performed by 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: trained veterinarians who specialize in anatomic pathology. Today we will 9 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 2: be speaking with doctor Allison Watson, who is a veterinary 10 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 2: anatomic pathologist and assistant professor at Colorado State University Veterinarian 11 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,320 Speaker 2: Diagnostic Laboratories. Welcome, doctor Watson. How are you. 12 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: I'm great, Thank you so much for. 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: Having me, Thanks so much, Thanks so much for being here. 14 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: Like I have a million questions for you, So we're 15 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 2: going to get started. Before we start talking about your 16 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 2: really really cool and interesting job, let's first start talking 17 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 2: how you got into the field of veterinary medicine. 18 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: I think I'm pretty similar to a lot of people 19 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: that you asked that question. I from a really young age, 20 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: I loved animals, so I feel like that was kind 21 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: of the first career that I had in mind. And 22 00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:36,479 Speaker 1: I also had an aunt that I'm really close with too, 23 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 1: was a veterinary tech technician, so that kind of inspired 24 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: me to go that route as well. I feel like 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: most students that I ask, I'll say, oh, I've always 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: wanted to be a vet from loving animals as kids. 27 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 2: That's really cool. So did you get to go to 28 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: work with your with your aunt when you were younger 29 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 2: and see what she did every day? 30 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: I did it a little bit. My family always had animals. 31 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: We always had dogs and casts that we brought and 32 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 1: we brought them to the clinic that she worked at. 33 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: But I didn't start doing any real shadowing or anything 34 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: until I was in high school and actually getting ready 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: to graduate and go to college. 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 2: All right, So I know how the field of medicine works, 37 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 2: for example, just going to medical school. First you have 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 2: to go to college and you have to go to 39 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: medical school. Then you have to do residency fellowships and 40 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: things like that. Is it the same for the field 41 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: of veterinary medicine or how does it work? Like after 42 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 2: you graduate high school, what do you do? 43 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: It's pretty similar. We go and go and get a 44 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: bachelor's degree first, usually in some science field, just because 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: it fulfills all of the prerequisites. For most veterinary schools, 46 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: they all tind of have a little bit variation in 47 00:02:54,680 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: prerecs prerequisites, but like my bachelor's biology and zoology, so 48 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: kind of a basic science bachelor's degree. I had a 49 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: few students in my class that didn't end up getting 50 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: a full bachelor's degree. They got all the prerecs done 51 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: and three years and then applied to med school and 52 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: were able to go. But I think there's maybe at 53 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 1: least three in my class with one hundred and forty people. 54 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: So after graduating with bachelor's degree, then you apply to 55 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: veterinary school, so same thing like medical school, and then 56 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 1: it's another four years four years of veterinary school, with 57 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: the clinical year being kind of the last year year 58 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: and a half where we're actually rotating through a large 59 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 1: hospital and all the different specialties. And then where it's 60 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: a little bit different from human doctors is that at 61 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: that time veterinarians can take the board exam. We take 62 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: that in our last year, and then you can go 63 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: out in practice in clinics. So most of the time 64 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: the veterinarian that's going to see your pets, your dogs 65 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: and cats or even horses. Is they're not specialized necessarily, 66 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: so you can just go out and start practicing where 67 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: most or all human doctors do residency training after. It's 68 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: not a requirement for veteran muans. But if you want 69 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: to specialize, become a pathologist or any of the other specialties, 70 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 1: then we apply again for internships usually so one year 71 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: rotating internship through again similar to our clinical year where 72 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 1: you rotate through all the different specialties in a large 73 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 1: hospital and then go on to a three year residency program. 74 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: So pathology is just a little bit different than that 75 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: where we don't have to do the internship part since 76 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: we're not going to be practicing clinical medicine on living. 77 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: We can just kind of go straight from veterinary school 78 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: to residency. So that's what I did. 79 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 2: At what point did you decide that you were interested 80 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 2: in pathology as opposed to taking care of and you 81 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: do you call them patients? Still, we do. 82 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: We often call them cases, but I mean they are patients. 83 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, that's interesting. 84 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, So I started at school wanting to be a 85 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: zoo vet. So either work in a zoo or work 86 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: in private practice with exotics, pet birds and pet pet reptiles. 87 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: I really like birds and reptiles, so that's kind of 88 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 1: what I started wanting to do when I was When 89 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: you're working on applying to veterinary school, you have to 90 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: get a lot of veterinary hours or volunteer animals with animals, 91 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: so you know, volunteering at animal shelters are different at 92 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 1: rescue have places, and then vet clinics as well. So 93 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 1: when I was working on that, I volunteered at the 94 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: rapture So Bird of Prey rehab Center near where I 95 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,600 Speaker 1: went to college, and I was able to do e 96 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: dropsies there. So that's kind of my first exposure to 97 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: what an ecropsy was, and at that time, I still 98 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: didn't know that that was a career that anyone did. 99 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: I thought it was just something that you did when 100 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 1: animals die, and other veterinarians do this too, but I 101 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: didn't realize that there were veterinarian pathologists until I started 102 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: vetering school. So our first year of school, we take 103 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: kind of all their theology courses, so an adamy, physiology, virology, bacteriology, 104 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: and then we also have our first pathology course, and 105 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,359 Speaker 1: that was kind of my first exposure to Wow, people 106 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: do this as a career, and it really excited me 107 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: in a way that clinical medicine didn't, which is kind 108 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: of It was kind of a scary feeling when I 109 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: started at school, like, oh, I've wanted this my whole life, 110 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: but it's not really speaking to me as much as 111 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,560 Speaker 1: I wanted it to to be a zoo vet. But 112 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: as soon as I started delving into what pathology was 113 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: and what pathologists do for their job, it's kind of 114 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: light bulb going off my head, like this is a 115 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: perfect marriage of science and medicine and for me. So 116 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 1: I think by the time I was halfway through schools 117 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: when I was one hundred percent going home, I'm going 118 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: to be a pathologist and kind of go down that route. 119 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 2: I love that story. It sounds very similar to mine, 120 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 2: Like I started school to be a nurse and was like, I, 121 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: this is definitely not for me, and then I found 122 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: pathology and was like, Okay, this is definitely I could do. 123 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: I could help people still, and I could work in 124 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: healthcare but not have to deal with the live people. 125 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: So getting to that question, is there any ever a 126 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 2: point that you see live patients anymore or are you 127 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: only seeing parts of them or when they die? 128 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and pretty much don't see any live patients. Our 129 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 1: lab is connected to the Veterinary Teaching Hospital that has 130 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: all of the all the specialties housed in it, so 131 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: if I needed to, I could go over there and 132 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: look at the patient. I do so. A particular interest 133 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 1: of mine is dramatic pathology, so pathology of the skin. 134 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: So I do meet with with our clinical dermatologists pretty 135 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: frequently and at least see photos up there living patients, 136 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: but I don't usually meet them in person. 137 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 2: That's awesome. Yeah, of course you want to see all 138 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: that stuff because you're you're a pathologist, so it makes sense, 139 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: do you so? In human medicine, we have positions like mine, 140 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: which is a PA, and we're the ones that dissect 141 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: all the organs that come down from surgeries, and we're 142 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 2: also the ones that perform the eviscerations for the autopsies. 143 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: Is there a similar position for someone like that in 144 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: your field or is that something that you just handle 145 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 2: completely yourself. 146 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: It definitely depends on what lab you work in. At 147 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: our lab, so we have three full time necropsy technicians 148 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: that can't help us if we want, so I've mentioned 149 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: and introduce me assistant professor. So we teach vetter nearing students, 150 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: so they're required to learn how to don cropsy as 151 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: part of their training. So we're teaching veterinaring students on 152 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: our cropsy floor. So we often have them doing doing 153 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: the actual exam to learn. But if we're really busy 154 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 1: or it's late in the afternoon or something, then my 155 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 1: technicians can help or I'll have them do the full exam. Uh. 156 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: And then as far as surgical specimens, we do have 157 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: a whole separate team of technicians that do all of that, 158 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: the gross exam on those specimens and trimming into cassettes, 159 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: and then I go up to our histology lab. 160 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: That's interesting, So do you do you have a separate 161 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 2: histology lab for the vet medicine or do you just 162 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:25,439 Speaker 2: send them over to a medical one and they just 163 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: caught them. 164 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, we have our own right in house, just down 165 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: the hall from my office. So we have a we 166 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 1: have I think we have like five or six full 167 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,320 Speaker 1: time techs in there, and we do our own aminum history, 168 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: chemistry and special stating as well. 169 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 2: All in I'm really interested in this actually, because so 170 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,240 Speaker 2: if you want to do if you want to be 171 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 2: a veterinarian, histotech, if you just want to do animal specimens, 172 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:54,839 Speaker 2: do you have to have the same or do you 173 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 2: even know this? You have to have the same certifications 174 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: as one that would work in a hospital. 175 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: You don't. They can, But as far as I know, 176 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: I don't think our technicians do. But I have known 177 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: a few at another place I worked and where I 178 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: did residency that did that certification. But we for some 179 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: of our technicians, we just require a bachelor's degree in 180 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: a science field, but then others we don't, and then 181 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: we do all of the on the job treating. 182 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: That's that's good to know because I always say this 183 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: on every single interview almost that I know all of 184 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: these people that have a bachelor's degree in science and 185 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 2: they don't know what they can do with it, right, 186 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: And this is just another example of a cool kind 187 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: of job that you could get working in a lab 188 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 2: with that kind of degree. So thanks for sharing that. 189 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. So can you give us an example 190 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 2: of some of the type of specimens and necruptcies that 191 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: you do at work on a day to day basis. 192 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: You don't have to give us your craziest case or 193 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: anything like that, but just more of an example of 194 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 2: the types of things that come across your desk every day. 195 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: Sure, and this can vary greatly depending on the time 196 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: of year. But I was actually just one knee cropsy 197 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: service yesterday, so I'll just give you an example of 198 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: what we saw yesterday. We had two cats, two three dogs, 199 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: and a rooster all in the same day. So but 200 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: you know, other days we might get a fours a cow. 201 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: We do get exotics or zeus species, so we might 202 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: get a pet perry, a couple of chickens. We usually 203 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: see anywhere from five to ten cases per day in 204 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 1: knee crompsy. So I looked this up because I can't 205 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: remember exactly, but I think we see around seventy five 206 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: percent dogs and cats in our lab, and then out 207 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: horses and then sheep and goats, some cows, and then 208 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: all the rest. So by far we're seeing mostly dogs 209 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 1: and cats at our lab, but that can definitely vary 210 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: on the part of the country that you're in, or 211 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: if you're in a more rural area where see a 212 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: lot more livestock, pigs and that type of animal. So 213 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: that's nee propsy. Our surgical biopsy service is really busy 214 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: at Colorado State. So we get around you know, ninety 215 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 1: to one and twenty cases a day. It is. 216 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 2: That's a lot of surgical cases, actually it is, yep. 217 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: So and that's just not all from our hospital, so 218 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: we get a lot from the rest of the state 219 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,920 Speaker 1: and other states. We get cases sent to us from 220 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: Japan even so we just have a pretty busy labs. 221 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: We have four to five pathologists on surgical scheduled every 222 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: day to take cases, and then we have one pathologist 223 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: with residents on our nee cropsy service. 224 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 2: This is really mind blowing to me. Honestly, you're busier 225 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 2: than a hospital some hospitals that I've worked at, actually, 226 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,479 Speaker 2: which is insane. It makes sense. So you're seeing specimens. 227 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 2: Let's say, for example, you take your dog to the 228 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: vet and they have a tumor and they say they 229 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 2: want to take a biopsy of it so you can 230 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 2: figure out if it's benign or malignant. Like that would 231 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 2: be something that you would get yep. And what would 232 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 2: drive an that cropsy for an animal because for example, 233 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 2: like one of my best friend's dogs just died about 234 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: a month ago, and she she was. She's a pa 235 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 2: actually too, so she's very curious as to what happened 236 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 2: because she came home and the belly, the baby or 237 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 2: the baby, the dogs, her baby, the belly was distended. 238 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 2: And then they said that she might have had a 239 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: spleen tumor that ruptured and it looked like it was 240 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: filled with blood on imaging, but she would have had 241 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 2: to pay for the autopsy. So she kind of of 242 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: just like, what's the difference? I don't need to get it, 243 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: but is that normally what drives these cases is the 244 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 2: family wanting to know or do you do it for 245 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: scientific purposes? 246 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: Both? So I'd say cases that we get from from 247 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: outside submission so at our lab, and I think most 248 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: labs are like this. Owners or the pet owners are 249 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: allowed to submit me dropsy so we don't have to 250 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: have a referral, so they can just bring their pet 251 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: straight from home to our labs. So I think that's 252 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 1: probably the majority of cases that we get. And usually 253 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: it's it's that same scenario where their pet seemed healthy 254 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: one day and then the next died suddenly, and they 255 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: really want that closure to get an answer, and then 256 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: otherwise it's for scientific interest or interest from our our 257 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: clinicians in the hospital, So why did this dog that 258 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: was doing so well on this treatment suddenly go downhill 259 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: so fast and dye to determine extensive disease, so metastasis, 260 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: and they suspect that there's metastasis from a malignant tumor, 261 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: and they want to know what organ it went to 262 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: and how bad it was. We do have clinical trials 263 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: patients that we do need propsies on that are purely 264 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: for research to see how the therapy was working. And 265 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,520 Speaker 1: then a lot of times there's concerns for infectious disease, 266 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: especially in our large animals, so a herd health issue. 267 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: People have chickens in their flock dying, they want to 268 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: make sure that the rest of them are okay, or 269 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 1: figure out disease process to treat other animals in the 270 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: herd or flock. So it can be for a million 271 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: different reasons, but I think pet owners often just want 272 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: that closure and get an answer. 273 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:05,879 Speaker 2: Since you work at a teaching facility, do you try 274 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: to because I've worked at a teaching facility for humans, 275 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 2: do you try to kind of recruit the necropsies just 276 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 2: so your students could have exposure to something that they 277 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: might not ever see again in their career. 278 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:24,680 Speaker 1: We do, especially from the teaching hospital, so we encourage 279 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: them to submit interesting cases or things that we might 280 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: not see. It's fortunate. So in our at Colorado State, 281 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: we do need propsies of patients through our hospital at 282 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: no charge to the client. So we use a fund 283 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: of money that comes from veterinary student tuition to pay 284 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: for that. So it's there a patient that's been seen 285 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: in the last six months to a year even and 286 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: they die, then we'll do that at no charge to 287 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: the pet owner. So we have a be high caseload 288 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 1: because of that. But outside some measure, submitters that are 289 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: not patients of the hospital do have to pay. But 290 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 1: we've at least since I've started, I've been here almost 291 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: five years, and we've never had, you know, a problem 292 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 1: with having enough cases to teach students, and we've had 293 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: the opposite problem where we have too many cases for 294 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 1: the students to handle in one day. So I know 295 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: that's different depending on what veterinary school you're you're working at, 296 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: they may have very few cases and are recruiting a 297 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: lot more actively. We used to accept donations, but we 298 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: don't anymore. Just because we have such a high caseload. 299 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: This is so interesting when when I do an autopsy 300 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: on a person that the permission form is very important 301 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 2: as far as what we're allowed to cut and who 302 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 2: gives the permission. There's a legal next of kin who's 303 00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,320 Speaker 2: the only one that's allowed to sign it. It just 304 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 2: it gets very complicated times because for example, a husband 305 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: would be the legal next of kim, but maybe one 306 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: of the children really don't want the autopsy done, but 307 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 2: we would still do it if the husband wanted it done. Right, 308 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 2: So are there any kind of like who who gives permission? 309 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 2: The owner? Do they have to give permission? 310 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: Yes, so we need permissions. We have them sign a 311 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: forum that giving us permission to do the new cropsy 312 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: and that we're really careful about only releasing information to 313 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 1: that person, So we need it written permission if they want, 314 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, they're veterarian to see the report or talk 315 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: to the pathologists. So that happens a lot where one 316 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: owner will submit and then maybe the husband will try 317 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: to call to get information, but we're not able to 318 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: release that. And then our cases from the hospital were 319 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: a little bit more since those are often being used 320 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,440 Speaker 1: for research as well, or for clinical trials. We have 321 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: a little bit more in depth form that they fill 322 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: out where they give permission for tissues to be collected 323 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: for research, or they can approve for the whole animal 324 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 1: to be used for teaching our research. And this because 325 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: we often have requests from teachers throughout Colorado State for 326 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: maybe a whole limb or ahead of an animal to 327 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: practice dentistry or to practice dissection on, and we wouldn't 328 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: want to do that without written and sign consent of 329 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: the owner of that animal. So we do have a 330 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: little box that they can check where they're aware that 331 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: we may use this entire dog for a dissection purpose 332 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: we're teaching. So that's kind of nice that we're able 333 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: to give the owners that ability, But otherwise we can 334 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: use them signing. We can use tissues that we normally 335 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,800 Speaker 1: collect for an hrompcy that we might do this topology on. 336 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: We can use that as part of a study if 337 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: we want. 338 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: That's that's so cool. This is just like really mind 339 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 2: blowing because I never really thought about it, and I 340 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: just I actually just wrote about a case in the 341 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,880 Speaker 2: gross room about animal forensics, which we'll get to in 342 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 2: a few minutes. But I never really I just really 343 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: never thought that this was all going on behind the 344 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: scenes for animals as well. When I took biology in 345 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: my undergrad we dissected a variety of animals, but they 346 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 2: all came from like Carolina Scientific or whatever, and they 347 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 2: were embalmbed and just smelled terrible. That smells just so terrible. 348 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: So you're saying that your students have a big range 349 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 2: of fresh animals to dissect or do they do them 350 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: on fixed specimens too? 351 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: They both, So in their first year they dissect partially 352 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,439 Speaker 1: fixed dogs that that we do that don't come in 353 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: through ne cropsy, so they similar they purchase them from 354 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 1: companies or we have some agreements with some of the 355 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: local humane societies where if strays or euthanized, they can 356 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: be donated. So they do have a full semester dissection 357 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 1: class on dogs where small groups that our new students 358 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: will dissect fixed animals and to identify all the muscle groups, nerves, DearS, 359 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 1: and all of that. But then they throughout their education 360 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: they have smaller group sessions where they'll practice surgical skills 361 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: and joint injections on fresh tissues. So that's usually where 362 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: we can they can utilize our neat cropsy lab for 363 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: donated animals that way. 364 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's way better to look at it 365 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 2: fresh different, So I always prefer that too. 366 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: Yep, are students is in their last clinical year, that's 367 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: where they have to learn how to ne cropsy, but 368 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: they often enjoy that rotation just to kind of review 369 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: anatomies that they haven't thought about since their first year 370 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: and see it fresh compared to fixed. So it's nice 371 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: that we can let them do that. 372 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 2: What's mind blowing about the field of batinary medicine to 373 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 2: me is, for example, for humans, it's we have to 374 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 2: learn one species of a mammal and then you guys 375 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: have to know every single other animal in the entire 376 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 2: animal kingdom. It's just and I know because from biology 377 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,959 Speaker 2: we dissected things all the way from like an earthworm 378 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 2: to a lobster or something, and a fetal pig and 379 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: a frog's completely different anatomy and all these animals. How 380 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 2: do you guys learn all that? 381 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: It's challenging, you know. We often say that's why veterinary 382 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: medicine is more exciting than human medicine, just because we 383 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: get to we are able to learn all these different 384 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 1: different anatomies of all the different species. So, like I said, 385 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: we in our anatomy course they do focus on dogs, 386 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: which dogs and cats are really similar, and then kind 387 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 1: of teach in different ways the anatomical differences between species. 388 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: And then so focusing on for example, the rumin in 389 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: or cow gastrointestinal system, which is is really different compared 390 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: to our carnivores where they have the four compartments in 391 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: their stomach. And then horses have a really different GI 392 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: system as well, so different depending on what they eat. 393 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: It can really vary. So we usually try to just 394 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: focus on the main differences. And then you know, muscles 395 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: are all needing the same narrative groups and arteries means 396 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: name the same, so that makes it a little bit easier. 397 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: It can be a challenge though, I'm googgling a lot. 398 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you learn it once, maybe five years ago, 399 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 2: and then I totally understand that. I mean that's normal, 400 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 2: every single person does that. I'm just trying to think 401 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: of doing a necroptcy on a horse, just yeah, just 402 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 2: how difficult that would that would be. Do you do 403 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 2: you have specialized morgus for these larger animals? I suppose, Yeah, 404 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: we have. 405 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 1: Our lab is pretty big, and we have a really 406 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: advanced creaming system that goes through the whole lab, so 407 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 1: we can lift horses off the ground and move them 408 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: around with the creaming system, which is pretty shocking when 409 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: people haven't seen that before. A whole horse kind of 410 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: floating to the air in our crane rail. So we 411 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,879 Speaker 1: have really large hydraulic tables that fit a horse or 412 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: a cow, or we'll put them actually directly on the 413 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: floor too. So it's quite different, I think than than 414 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: human on autopsy is where you know, we if we 415 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: have ten cases going out once, they can alter in 416 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: our necropsy lab. So we're definitely have some more equipment 417 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: that you probably wouldn't use in autopsies, like a sazzle 418 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: for horse surprise. 419 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 2: You'd be surprised. I'm sorry, So how Yeah, because I'm wondering, like, 420 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: how do you how do you even lay a horse 421 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,400 Speaker 2: down in the way that you would need to access 422 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 2: their their chest and abdominal cavity because they don't really 423 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 2: I guess they have a semi flat back. What do 424 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 2: you have their head hang off the edge or something. 425 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: Or yeah, so a lot of and some people do 426 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: it differently and I've learned both ways, but we actually 427 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: do most of our autopsy or our necropsies and lateral recumbency, 428 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 1: so which would be really weird in a human right, 429 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: but yeah, so yes, So we'll only have to take 430 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 1: off one side of the rib page of a horse, 431 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: uh to to access long and heart, and we'll take 432 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,639 Speaker 1: out a pluck, which I think you probably do a 433 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: humer in medicine too, so tongue tongue delungs, so that 434 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 1: makes it easier. I have seen different labs do horses 435 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,679 Speaker 1: and dorsal recumbency, which takes just a little bit of 436 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:16,720 Speaker 1: work to get them to kind of lay flat and 437 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: not roll over. We do like some troughs and different 438 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: tools like that, but we actually, at least at my lab, 439 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: we do decropsies in lateral recumbency in most species, so 440 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,040 Speaker 1: in dogs and cats as well. It's just a little 441 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: bit quicker to just take off on one side of 442 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: the root cage and just encourage the students to learn 443 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: one way that they feel comfortable with and during their 444 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 1: time with us, and if they do have to end 445 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: up doing any cropsy on their patients in the clinics, 446 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: which they can do, then they'll remember how from what 447 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 1: we teach them. 448 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 2: That's cool. So do you take them? Do you take 449 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 2: all you're saying you take all the organs out in 450 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 2: one block, or we do We. 451 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: Take at least a tongue to lungs out altogether, and 452 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: then we take the abdomble organs out separately, so we're 453 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: not usually doing just one nice why incision and putting 454 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: them all nicely back in. So it's it's it's quite different, 455 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: at least from from what I know about human autopsy. Yep, 456 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: we take them all out together and then seem for them. 457 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 2: Imagine those blocks are heavy for you to pull out all. 458 00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: It's so heavy a horse imagine you know how long 459 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 1: a horse horse tongue or horse neck kids, And so 460 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,479 Speaker 1: definitely in teamwork situation when we have those really large animals. 461 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: A few months ago we had a giraffe at my lab, 462 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,360 Speaker 1: so we had you know, like twenty people working on 463 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: the giraffe just because for time and in how heavy 464 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,520 Speaker 1: all the organs were. So it's exciting for us. 465 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 2: You I was gonna say, were you like so excited 466 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: to go to work that day? I would have been like. 467 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's fun to see species that we don't always see. 468 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: So do you have a particular one that you're like, 469 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 2: I need to see this before I die. 470 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: I was just talking about this the other day. I'd 471 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: love to see to learn more about the anatomy of 472 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: a platypus, just because they have the venom they have 473 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: like a little venom gland and uh, I I would 474 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: like to I would like to need cropsy a platypus. 475 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: Where are they native to? Oh gosh, I don't even know. 476 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: I wonder if you could just call someone at a 477 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: university there, because they're probably like, oh, we do them 478 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 2: all the time right now. 479 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I might be able to Yeah, because they're not 480 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: usually you don't usually see them at zoos either, so 481 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: because we do get some animals from zoos and theroughout 482 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: the street, so we do get a lot of different 483 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: species that they aren't Keptain's pets. But I've never seen 484 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: one of those. 485 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 2: So, yeah, giraffe sounds so cool. I would be I 486 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: would be stoked to see that. I saw a video 487 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 2: of an autopsy on a whale recently and just think 488 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: like it's just so big and grand. I just don't 489 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 2: even understand how how you would even navigate that when 490 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: you would have to be standing inside the body to 491 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: try to remove some of the organs. It's just nuts. 492 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've never got to help with that. I'd like to. 493 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 1: I have some colleagues that like to travel and go 494 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: to Alaska and they've got to help with quite a 495 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: few whale the crumpsis. But I haven't got to do that. 496 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: But it would be fun and smell. 497 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: So I know, I thought about that, like, Okay, you 498 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 2: have this large animal that's dying and decomposing in a 499 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: bottle of body of water. It's probably the worst smell ever. 500 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: They smell terrible when they're alive, right. 501 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: Like, yeah, I've heard it's pretty bad. 502 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't. I can't even imagine, because a human 503 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 2: that's in a body of water that's dead is terrible. 504 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 2: So I just can't. I can't even wrap my brain 505 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 2: around it. But I always say, like, the science of 506 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: it is so exciting that you just kind of ignore 507 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 2: the horrible smell because you want to see something cool, 508 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 2: you know. 509 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I'm not really affected by 510 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: it anymore, but are students that aren't always down there 511 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: definitely have like the vics under their nose, And. 512 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 2: I love that I love when students come in and 513 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: just have no idea what they're about to walk into, 514 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: and some of them are just like, look like they're 515 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 2: going to throw up in the corner, and you just 516 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 2: think you better get used to this because this is 517 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,000 Speaker 2: what you're going to smell every day working here. 518 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: Yep. 519 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by crime Con. Looking 520 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: for a chance to win two standard badges at crime 521 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 2: Con this May and Nashville to enter, head over to 522 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 2: my Instagram post today March twenty sixth and comment why 523 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 2: you want to go to crime Con. Make sure you 524 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 2: are following me at missus Ann Jemmy and at crime Con. 525 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 2: That's it. Winners will be selected Friday, March twenty ninth. 526 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: For any additional updates about crime Con, make sure to 527 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 2: follow them at crime Con on Instagram and x and 528 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 2: join their free mailing list at crimecon dot com slash email. 529 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 2: When So, when you get these, you get a lot 530 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: of specimens on animals and stuff. Is there a common 531 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 2: tumor that used the most common benign tumor most common 532 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: malignant tumors that you see in animals? 533 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: Oh? Geez. At least so there's definitely a difference in 534 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 1: kind of the types of cases that we see. So 535 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: here we are at Colorado, we see a lot of theoplasia. 536 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: So we have a big animal cancer center in the 537 00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: teaching hospital, so a lot of the cases that we 538 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: do get are neoplasia. But I did residency in the Southeast, 539 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: so we had a lot more infextious cases come through 540 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: surgical biopsy and necropsy. I'd say probably I thought of 541 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,080 Speaker 1: this when we were talking about your your friend's dog 542 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: that passed. But we do see a lot of famagiosarcola 543 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: as far as malignant cancer goes. So that's a tumor 544 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: of the endothelial lining of vessels, so the cells align 545 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 1: blood vessels, and they're really common in the spleen. So 546 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: we do get those cases really commonly where the fleet 547 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: is ruptured and they have a female abdomen blood and 548 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 1: the abdomen, so that's an unfortunate one. They do happen 549 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: in the skin as well, and can be animals can 550 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: be predisposed from increased sun exposure. Use the exposure, so 551 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: in Colorado, where it's really sunny and we're at a 552 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 1: higher elevation, we see a lot of those in the skin. 553 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 1: And then as far as benign. You know, we get 554 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: a lot of hammer tolas, little gingeble mass that are 555 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: just hyper plastic that are benign, just proliferations. I think 556 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: that's pretty common. I mentioned I really like dirm paths, 557 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: so I get a lot of allergy itchy dog skin 558 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: biopsies that are technically benign but cause the pent discomfort. 559 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 2: Can animals. So this might this might be a stupid question, 560 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 2: but I've been very allergic to dogs my entire life. 561 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 2: I get asthma in if they lick me, I get hives, 562 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: and just I can't be around them. Can animals have 563 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: that towards humans? Is there is Has that ever been documented? 564 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: You know, it's I think it would be hard to prove. 565 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 1: We do. Clinicians, dermatologists will do allergy testing and dogs, 566 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 1: kind of like like we do for people where you 567 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 1: get all the little pig Yeah. Yeah, So we can't 568 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: do that in dogs. But it's a little bit the 569 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: science is a little bit less clear than in humans. 570 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: So I haven't heard of a case where, you know, 571 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,720 Speaker 1: human deander human skins came up as an allergen to dogs, 572 00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: but they do have pretty similar environmental allergens that people do. 573 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: The grasses and so seasonal allergies dogs get pretty commonly. 574 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, it's possible, right, Like, it's definitely possible. 575 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 2: I just never really thought about that when you have 576 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 2: so you're talking you have a cancer center. What I 577 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,360 Speaker 2: feel like, I only know a couple of people that 578 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: have had cancer and how to get chemo, one being 579 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 2: my grandmom and my and my uncle both had billiary cancer, 580 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: so they had terrible, like hardcore chemo. And I wouldn't 581 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: really advise that for any human, let alone an animal. 582 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 2: And I know people talk about getting their animals chemotherapy, 583 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 2: so and then some vetecs that are in the grosser room, 584 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 2: I've mentioned that it's just not as the same as 585 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 2: a human getting it. So can you explain that to 586 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 2: us more? 587 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah? So, I mean, at least where I work, a 588 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: lot of animals are getting chemotherapy, right since they travel 589 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: here to get treatment from our own cologists. And from 590 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:22,200 Speaker 1: what I understand is often the dosages of the chemotherapeutics 591 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: aren't as strong as what we give people, so they 592 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 1: might not get as severe side effects. And I mean 593 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: we do see dogs. They're nounxious, a little bit inappetent, 594 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: maybe self hair loss, but it's never as severe as 595 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,399 Speaker 1: it seems that people experience, and so we can treat 596 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: again with anti nauga and medications and they seem to 597 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,319 Speaker 1: do really well. And I don't think it's you know, 598 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: as understood, but I think it has to do with 599 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: the dosage of what chemotherapeutic they're using. We do have animals. 600 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: I've seen some animals that just don't respond well or 601 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,839 Speaker 1: have such severe side effects that that they have to discontinue. 602 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: So it does happen, but not as not as commonly 603 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: as in people. 604 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, So do you ever think maybe humans could get 605 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,839 Speaker 2: a little bit less and they don't know so. 606 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,439 Speaker 1: Much or something. And I think, yeah, there's a there's 607 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: a difference, right, Like we're and obviously in the animals too, 608 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: or trying for curative intent with chemotherapy. But uh, you know, 609 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of the neoplasia and the 610 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: cancer that dogs are getting, maybe chemotherapy extend their life 611 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 1: by one cancer for a year. That's like pretty hopeful 612 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 1: for a lot of diseases, unfortunately, but people were hoping 613 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: for like complete remission and for life exactly. So I 614 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: think that that has a lot to do with it 615 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: as well, just kind of different, different therapeutic goals I 616 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: guess for for dogs ors people. 617 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand them. Yeah, So talk talking about my 618 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: same friend. Hopefully she listens to this. I'll tell her 619 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: to anyway. Which So she has dogs that she gets 620 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 2: from a breeder, and I feel like they have they 621 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 2: have problems. 622 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: I don't. 623 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 2: I don't have dogs, so I don't know if every 624 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 2: dog just has problems. But she's had autoimmune disease. A 625 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 2: couple have had cancer and die at eight nine years old, 626 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 2: not too old, but I don't know again how long 627 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: they're supposed to live. But she so I always say 628 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 2: to her, like, maybe you don't want to get this 629 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 2: from the breeder, because I did write an article last 630 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 2: year in the gross room about inbreeding with humans, and 631 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,360 Speaker 2: I couldn't really get I did find a couple of 632 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: articles talking about it with animals, but there was some 633 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 2: conflicting information with that. So I know, with humans, if 634 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 2: you have children too close together, there could be an 635 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 2: increased risk of genetic mutations and inherited genetic other inherited 636 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 2: genetic diseases. What about with animals? You have been aion 637 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 2: on that. 638 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know what some of This has been 639 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 1: pretty well proven with different breeds of dogs, and we'll 640 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,160 Speaker 1: just use dogs as an examples since that's the most common. 641 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: But certain diseases, Yes, it's been proven. We've found the 642 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: genetic mutation in certain breeds that predisposed to different cancers 643 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: and different conditions. In other times, we haven't been able 644 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: to sign that that genetic but it seems like there 645 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: is a predisposition. A higher percentage of say Golden Retrievers 646 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:39,080 Speaker 1: get osteosarcola and Mandia sarcoma. These are all just examples. 647 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:45,319 Speaker 1: Burne's Mountain dogs get histiocidic diseases histiocidic circla. Most of 648 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: them get this some some sort of histiocidic neoplasm during 649 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,200 Speaker 1: their life. So I think it's it's proven that that 650 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: certain pure bred dogs are predisposed to certain diseases. But 651 00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 1: that being said, because I get this question all the time, like, 652 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 1: well I got a I got a mutt from the 653 00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: pound and it still got bone cancer, and like why 654 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 1: did that happen? And now there's still spontaneous point mutations 655 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: that are you know, predisposed to to neoplasia. So I 656 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: think we just don't know as much in dogs as 657 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: we do and people about about genetic predispositions or genetic mutations, 658 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: but we're getting there slowly through research and identifying these genes. 659 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: So you know, I have all mixed breed dogs partly 660 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,440 Speaker 1: for that reason. But you know, it doesn't doesn't stop 661 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 1: doesn't stop folks that love a certain breed from continuing 662 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: to to get them. So I think it's important to 663 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 1: you know, look into what breeder you're buying dogs from 664 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 1: and seeing if they're on top of research, because there 665 00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: are a lot of tests that you can do, a 666 00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: test for genetic mutations and breeds that we know about 667 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,800 Speaker 1: kind of and stop breeding those individuals. So I think, 668 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: if you're gonna buy pure bread dogs, make sure you're 669 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: buying some responsible breeders and not just you know, hobby 670 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:11,720 Speaker 1: backyard people. 671 00:41:12,840 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 2: That just made me think of something too, when you 672 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,279 Speaker 2: were saying that people were saying that their MutS were 673 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: coming up with bone cancer or something too. I mean, 674 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,319 Speaker 2: I'm assuming that animals have that can have the same 675 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:29,200 Speaker 2: environmental exposures to viruses and even I mean what I've 676 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 2: never thought about this either, but what about a dog 677 00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,319 Speaker 2: living in a house with with a chronic smoker or 678 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 2: something like that. Has there only been studies done on 679 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff? 680 00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:42,400 Speaker 1: There has been. It's again pretty difficult to prove. But 681 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: you know we I get that question all the time too, 682 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: Like I lived near sanctuaries, that's why my dog died? Maybe, right, 683 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: We can't really say one way or the other. They've 684 00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: done big studies on swain A cell carsonoma and cats 685 00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: that thought maybe like cats that were in smoking households 686 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: were more likely to get carconoma. But it's just it's 687 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: hard to hard to prove. And think about, you know, 688 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: an animal that has such a shortened life span compared 689 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: to a person, so their environmental exposures can have a 690 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: greater impact in their lifetime, or at least that's kind 691 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,360 Speaker 1: of what we think. And you know, it's easier to 692 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,760 Speaker 1: study cancers and dogs because they have a shorter life 693 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: span compared to a person. Right, So for example, on 694 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: going back to the pure bread dogs were part of 695 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: a Golden retriever lifetime study from the Morris Animal Foundation. 696 00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: So they've followed around two thousand dogs Golden retrievers from 697 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: tying their puppy to death and they get regular veterinary 698 00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 1: care and they'll all or as many as we can 699 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,640 Speaker 1: get the cropsies at the end of their life to 700 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,279 Speaker 1: try to get a little bit more information on what 701 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,720 Speaker 1: these dogs are dying from and do some more genetic research. 702 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: So I think with time, when we're trying to catch 703 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: up to human medicine, we'll figure more of that stuff out. 704 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just this is just so cool. I really 705 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: appreciate this interview with you because I'm learning so much 706 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:26,160 Speaker 2: stuff today. So there's we're going to start turn talking 707 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 2: about now how your work could also help humans. There's 708 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 2: infectious diseases for those of you who don't know that 709 00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,200 Speaker 2: are listening that some can are specific to species, like 710 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 2: feline HIV or HIV, and felines are Feline immuno deficiency 711 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 2: virus is only something that happens in felines, and human 712 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,120 Speaker 2: immune deficiency virus is only something that happens in humans, 713 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:56,359 Speaker 2: So a human that has that just can't give it 714 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 2: to a cat. But there are ones that are called 715 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:04,160 Speaker 2: zoonotic diseases which cross species. And I know that most 716 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 2: people could say that they've heard of that because of 717 00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,799 Speaker 2: when they were talking about the origin of COVID, when 718 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 2: they were trying to determine if it was coming from 719 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,720 Speaker 2: one of those wet markets and that they were saying 720 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: that it crossed species from an animal to a human. 721 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 2: So in those types of cases, someone like you would 722 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,799 Speaker 2: get involved in that kind of stuff. Is have you 723 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 2: ever been involved in a case where you were doing 724 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 2: a necropsy on an animal to try to see if 725 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 2: it was from if it was spreading to humans or 726 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 2: vice versa. 727 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, we get zoonotic cases pretty frequently. The biggest example 728 00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: is ravies, So our lab removes breeds and then the 729 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: virology lave upstairs will do the fluorescent antibody tests to 730 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: determine if an animal had bravies or not. So I 731 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: think that's probably the best example where we get. My 732 00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 1: tech texted me the other day and we had we 733 00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:03,600 Speaker 1: got fifty cases in one day where a brain brains 734 00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: needed to be removed from wildlife and dogs. So we 735 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:13,400 Speaker 1: get mostly the dog cases are from bite bite cases 736 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,319 Speaker 1: where the dogs weren't vaccinated against rabies and then they 737 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: bit someone and so they were euthanized and had to 738 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,480 Speaker 1: have their brain removed for to test for rabies to 739 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,719 Speaker 1: make sure the person wasn't exposed. So we get those 740 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: all the time, we do get some positives, but by 741 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: that time, hopefully the person who's had post exposure vaccinations. 742 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: I haven't had one where since. Like we're using rabies 743 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: as an example, it's so rare for humans in the 744 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: US to succumb to riebies get disease from it, so 745 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,239 Speaker 1: I haven't had to go backwards in that way. But 746 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: we do a lot of zoonotic testing in our lab, 747 00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: so we get wildlife and even dogs and cats where 748 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: plague is suspected or tularemia. Those are big examples that 749 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,480 Speaker 1: are common in Colorado. We've had a couple of anthrax cases. 750 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:15,040 Speaker 1: We had one two years ago in the lab, which 751 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,799 Speaker 1: is scary. Luckily, we have our a separate kind of 752 00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: area for zoanautic diseases, so only one person was around 753 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 1: the cow that had it to do the testing. But 754 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: that's a big deal that we have to, you know, 755 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:35,680 Speaker 1: afford the government about reportable diseases. Yeah, so we we 756 00:46:35,719 --> 00:46:39,400 Speaker 1: do that a lot. What usually happens if an animal 757 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,759 Speaker 1: has plague, and especially a dog, this happens every couple 758 00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:46,000 Speaker 1: of years where it was treated in the hospital, so 759 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: vet students and nurses and doctors were all exposed in 760 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: this dog and that. Yeah, so so that's usually where 761 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,480 Speaker 1: kind of at least they don't have the disease, but 762 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,359 Speaker 1: they were exposed. So we want to make sure people 763 00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: are aware of that. We get chlamydia cases that are zonautic, 764 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: so we have, you know, a biosecurity hood that we 765 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:15,680 Speaker 1: do all our pet birds in and certain abortion cases, 766 00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,400 Speaker 1: so for cue fever and chlamydia. So we're exposed to 767 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: quite a few different zonotic things on the necropsy floor. 768 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 2: Were so I I don't know if you listen to 769 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 2: my interview that I did with doctor Michelle Miranda, she's 770 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,920 Speaker 2: a forensic tattoo expert and she was They did listen 771 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 2: to that one, Yeah, did you so just briefly like 772 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 2: she was talking about she had just been been at 773 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:43,160 Speaker 2: a conference in Australia and found out that koalas carried chlamydia. 774 00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:44,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. Yeah. 775 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,799 Speaker 2: Is that something that is considered zoonautically? Could it get 776 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:50,920 Speaker 2: spread to humans or it's a different kind of. 777 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: I think that one's different. It's Chlamydia cacorum. I can't 778 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: remember if humans can get that one, but the ones 779 00:48:01,640 --> 00:48:06,239 Speaker 1: that birds get is citicize, so for media citizize, So 780 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: our citizen prayerents. So here is like cockatiles, all of 781 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: them and we can get that from media. So oh god. 782 00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: But yeah, so we uh you know, that's a reason 783 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,919 Speaker 1: why we do all those cases in the biosecurity hood, 784 00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,399 Speaker 1: even if we're I'm pretty sure that's not what it is, 785 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,359 Speaker 1: just in case. So since we're working with students a lot, 786 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:29,560 Speaker 1: you don't want that. Uh oh, well went of you know, 787 00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: opening out to the animal and seeing that it's probably 788 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,080 Speaker 1: something zoonotic. 789 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, we had one time. I used to work at 790 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,480 Speaker 2: a hospital that did a lot of neuropathology and we 791 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,040 Speaker 2: had a case of suspected rabies and they wanted us 792 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 2: to do the autopsy in our lab. And I remember 793 00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 2: the neuropathologist came up to me and he was like, 794 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,560 Speaker 2: I just don't want you do in that case. And 795 00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:52,359 Speaker 2: I was like, okay, he's just like, you don't want 796 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 2: to be exposed to that. I don't know what the 797 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 2: precautions are here, just it would be better if you're 798 00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,040 Speaker 2: not exposed to it. So do you do you guys 799 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:06,360 Speaker 2: have to do special precautions for suspected cases of rabies 800 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 2: or is that just normal universal precautions. 801 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:13,080 Speaker 1: We're actually all vaccinated, So all of that students and 802 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: anyone that works in our lab is that's going to 803 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: be around breeding tissues vaccinated against rabies. And then we 804 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: do tires that our work pays for every other year 805 00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,040 Speaker 1: to just make sure that we're good to go. But 806 00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,920 Speaker 1: we do we don't expose the students even though they're vaccinated, 807 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,200 Speaker 1: So we have a separate area that we'll remove brains 808 00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: and then usually my technicians are doing that, so they 809 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:41,319 Speaker 1: wear cut gloves and take a little bit extra precautions. 810 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: Definitely not using any saus around potential rabies suspects. But 811 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,360 Speaker 1: we do have you know, in ninety fives and we 812 00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,360 Speaker 1: get fit tested and we try to be as careful 813 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: as we can with those cases. 814 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,440 Speaker 2: It's mandatory then that you guys give vaccinate for that 815 00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:04,480 Speaker 2: because I would I would think it should be yeah, yeah, 816 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 2: we're not for. 817 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,320 Speaker 1: Humans, that's right, right, So if we had a medical reason. 818 00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: I've had a couple of that students that got really 819 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,520 Speaker 1: had really severe reactions. It's a three vaccine series, so 820 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:19,720 Speaker 1: maybe they end up only getting two and then getting 821 00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:24,120 Speaker 1: tighters more regularly, but otherwise were all required to do 822 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: that and do the by or every other year tighter. 823 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the it's it's not like, oh, I'll take 824 00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:34,600 Speaker 2: my chances. You're you're going to die if you get that, 825 00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 2: so I would definitely. 826 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:40,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, So all veterinarians are vaccinated just because they're gonna 827 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:44,160 Speaker 1: get they're probably at maybe a higher risk just because 828 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:44,759 Speaker 1: they can get bit. 829 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:46,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 830 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:47,439 Speaker 1: Right, but. 831 00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,040 Speaker 2: Oh god, that's scary. All right, let's talk about the 832 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,319 Speaker 2: forensic aspect of this. I don't know how familiar you 833 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 2: are with it, but in the Grosser Room last week 834 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,279 Speaker 2: or two weeks ago, I wrote about a k of 835 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,840 Speaker 2: a dog. So the scene investigators show up to the 836 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,440 Speaker 2: scene of a murder where a man was shot and 837 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:08,719 Speaker 2: also his dog was shot to death. They were both 838 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 2: shot to death, and they said that one of the 839 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:13,759 Speaker 2: one of the man went to the medical examiner to 840 00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,719 Speaker 2: get an autopsy, but then the dog had a necropsy 841 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:21,160 Speaker 2: done to retrieve a bullet. So that got me really 842 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 2: thinking about talking to someone like you, because this is 843 00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,240 Speaker 2: this is really interesting. Obviously, the body of the human 844 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,280 Speaker 2: will go to the medical examiner's office, would the body 845 00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,319 Speaker 2: of the dog go to someone like you? 846 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:39,239 Speaker 1: Yes, yep. We get forensic or legal necropsy cases all 847 00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: the time. We had two. I had two yesterday. So 848 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,120 Speaker 1: we get cases submitted from all different counties of law 849 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:53,400 Speaker 1: enforcement agencies or humane societies throughout Colorado. And then we 850 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:57,240 Speaker 1: also mentioned that pet owners can submit, so they can 851 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,200 Speaker 1: choose to submit their own themal for a forensic the 852 00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,080 Speaker 1: propsy and with plans to you know, prosecute or try 853 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,320 Speaker 1: to try to prosecute whoever they think might have killed 854 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,319 Speaker 1: their animal or so we do get cases like that too. 855 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,600 Speaker 2: That's that's really interesting. So when you learned this in school, 856 00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:22,799 Speaker 2: you learned this in your in your residency thing that 857 00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 2: you were doing afterwards. So during that were you trained 858 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,239 Speaker 2: specifically in forensics how to handle evidence and how to 859 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:35,080 Speaker 2: take pictures because ultimately these case that information could be 860 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,520 Speaker 2: used in the prosecution with the case probably I'm assuming yep. 861 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: So we handle them a little bit differently. Uh, And 862 00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: I've you know, I have an interest in forensics, so 863 00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: I've I definitely seek out additional continuing education or training 864 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:56,719 Speaker 1: at our different pathology meetings, there's often different lectures or 865 00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:01,879 Speaker 1: workshops that we can do about forensics. So we do 866 00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:05,239 Speaker 1: take photos differently than we do of our other cases 867 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 1: with labels and not deleting photos that we take, making 868 00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,560 Speaker 1: sure we're documenting every single part, which we don't always 869 00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:19,400 Speaker 1: do with our diagnostic regular cases, and then collecting evidence 870 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: a different way. We store tissues for much longer than 871 00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,120 Speaker 1: we do our normal cases for years, collect them in 872 00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:31,160 Speaker 1: a little bit different way for forensic cases. But I 873 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,920 Speaker 1: know training can vary quite a bit amongst training programs. 874 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:40,400 Speaker 1: One thing that I try to expose our residents to 875 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:46,479 Speaker 1: these cases because we make sure that the residents don't 876 00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:50,239 Speaker 1: take kind of primary responsibility for legal cases because we 877 00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,319 Speaker 1: don't want them to get subpoenat and have to go 878 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,279 Speaker 1: to court for it. They may have moved away or 879 00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 1: be busy with studying or some things we don't want 880 00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:00,719 Speaker 1: them to have to deal with it. But I think 881 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,840 Speaker 1: that kind of does a disservice for our residents because 882 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:06,160 Speaker 1: then when they start a job and they're all of 883 00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:09,040 Speaker 1: a sudden like, okay, here you going, Now you're the 884 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,840 Speaker 1: responsible party. So I try to at least talk to 885 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,560 Speaker 1: them about the cases that I take and make sure 886 00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: they're aware the process so that it's not a surprise 887 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:18,920 Speaker 1: when they're done with residency. 888 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:22,920 Speaker 2: Yeah that makes sense, because yeah, they'll be getting ready 889 00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,040 Speaker 2: to take a really important test and have to go 890 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,440 Speaker 2: testify at court and just exactly that would be the 891 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 2: last thing on their mind that they want to deal 892 00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,759 Speaker 2: with at that point. So there's been times where you 893 00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:36,240 Speaker 2: will collect like bullets, do you collect DNA and stuff 894 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:36,799 Speaker 2: like that too. 895 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:44,040 Speaker 1: We will collect at least fresh sterile tissue, but and 896 00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:45,960 Speaker 1: I know, you know, other labs are a little bit 897 00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,520 Speaker 1: better equipped to collect trace evidence and you know, fingerprint 898 00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,920 Speaker 1: the animals and DNA, but we do rely on our 899 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,600 Speaker 1: law enforcement agency to do some of that before they 900 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,120 Speaker 1: bring the animal to us. But I'll just try to 901 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,120 Speaker 1: collect as much as I then, and you know, we're 902 00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:06,080 Speaker 1: not ballistics experts, so we'd still rely on the law 903 00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,560 Speaker 1: enforcement officer that is assigned to the case to come 904 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:14,880 Speaker 1: and pick up the bullet fragments to do additional testing there. 905 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,920 Speaker 1: But we try to collect as much as possible at 906 00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,359 Speaker 1: the time of the exam that we might need later on. 907 00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:26,040 Speaker 1: So we'll keep stomach contents and additional samples fluids that 908 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:29,399 Speaker 1: we might not for a normal ne cropsy, but try 909 00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:32,000 Speaker 1: to just to anticipate anything that we might have to 910 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:32,680 Speaker 1: do later on. 911 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,880 Speaker 2: What are other circumstances that you would do a forensic 912 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,799 Speaker 2: exam on an animal so. 913 00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,440 Speaker 1: We get the We get a lot of unfortunately, a 914 00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:48,640 Speaker 1: lot of neglect and abuse cases, so hoarding cases where 915 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:52,960 Speaker 1: animal controls called out because you know, they see their 916 00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 1: neighbors starving their dog and it died, so they want 917 00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,799 Speaker 1: to prove that and try to prosecute the person that 918 00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,560 Speaker 1: they think killed the animal from neglect or abuse. So 919 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: that's probably most common. And then you know, we get unfortunately, 920 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:11,880 Speaker 1: we get cases like the one that you mentioned where 921 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,520 Speaker 1: a person was injured at the same time, so they 922 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:18,279 Speaker 1: want to try to use that to help in prosecution 923 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,279 Speaker 1: against the injury that they did towards a person or 924 00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,879 Speaker 1: if they murdered them. You know, we've had a case 925 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:31,800 Speaker 1: where person you know, attempted to they killed the animal, 926 00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,160 Speaker 1: They killed the dog, and then tried to kill their 927 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:38,240 Speaker 1: girlfriend the same time. So they really want to hammer 928 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,799 Speaker 1: at home and use that in the prosecution to make 929 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:47,040 Speaker 1: sure that person goes to prison. Yeah, if they we 930 00:56:47,080 --> 00:56:51,000 Speaker 1: get a lot of you know, starvation cases. Unfortunately, they're 931 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,920 Speaker 1: abandoned buildings and they find an animal in there, so 932 00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:58,359 Speaker 1: they want to see if it was killed or if 933 00:56:58,360 --> 00:56:59,800 Speaker 1: it died of natural causes. 934 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, my husband works in Camden City. I don't know 935 00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:06,920 Speaker 2: if you know anything about it. But he sees a 936 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,280 Speaker 2: lot of he's a firefighter and he just comes across 937 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,839 Speaker 2: cases of different things all the time, and I think 938 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,800 Speaker 2: about all of these. There's I guess there's special police 939 00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:20,640 Speaker 2: officers like animal control officers, so you must deal with 940 00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:25,520 Speaker 2: them when you're dealing with this, right, And would you 941 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 2: or have you ever had to go to court to 942 00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,320 Speaker 2: testify on any of these types of cases? 943 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,440 Speaker 1: So so far I haven't gone to court, but I 944 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,720 Speaker 1: do get subpoena like multiple times a year, and you know, 945 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,040 Speaker 1: I've gotten to where the trial was the next week 946 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:50,240 Speaker 1: and that, but then the person pled guilty, so I'm 947 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 1: almost had to go to trial. And multiple times I 948 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:55,640 Speaker 1: have kind of an active case right now that they 949 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,760 Speaker 1: think is going to go to trial later in the summer. 950 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:02,800 Speaker 1: But my colleagues have multiple times, some of them so 951 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:04,920 Speaker 1: over their career years. So we do get called as 952 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:08,800 Speaker 1: expert witnesses for these cases. A lot of times they're 953 00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,400 Speaker 1: able to just use our report to prosecute, but other 954 00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:15,280 Speaker 1: times they really feel like it would be important for 955 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:18,720 Speaker 1: us to to go to trial, So we do get 956 00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:20,640 Speaker 1: called a lot. So I may go to trial later 957 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:23,320 Speaker 1: this year, but often as soon as they put us 958 00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:25,520 Speaker 1: in as expert witnesses, I feel like they kind of 959 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,440 Speaker 1: do a plea deal. Or at least that's been my experience. 960 00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:31,760 Speaker 1: But yeah, at least like three or four of my 961 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:33,920 Speaker 1: of the other pathologists I work with, have had to 962 00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:35,840 Speaker 1: go multiple times for different cases. 963 00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, that would make me so nervous. I mean, I 964 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 2: guess I don't know, because I feel like when I 965 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:45,720 Speaker 2: do autopsy and stuff, I'm very confident in what I find. 966 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:48,040 Speaker 2: And I think I would be I would be fine. 967 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,760 Speaker 2: I just I've been to court a couple times with 968 00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,800 Speaker 2: the medical examiner and the defense lawyers are just so 969 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:58,480 Speaker 2: like scummy and ask these stupid questions, and I would 970 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,760 Speaker 2: I don't know how I would. I wouldn't be I 971 00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:03,360 Speaker 2: would be like a smart ass to them. 972 00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:08,440 Speaker 1: Maybe yeah, I one of the cases. I you know, 973 00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 1: when I first started, I wasn't really sure how the 974 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: process worked, and I didn't know that you could say 975 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,600 Speaker 1: no to the defense about meeting beforehand. So they wanted 976 00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:21,840 Speaker 1: to meet before the trial, and it was a video 977 00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:26,160 Speaker 1: chat and it was an hour long interrogation from them 978 00:59:26,240 --> 00:59:28,840 Speaker 1: like how can you say this? Like what if this 979 00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,200 Speaker 1: was your animal? And how old do you think this 980 00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,000 Speaker 1: dog should have lived and just oh my god, it 981 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,760 Speaker 1: was a lot. So I was happy that that one 982 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,080 Speaker 1: didn't go all the way because it did give me 983 00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,440 Speaker 1: a taste of what it could could be like. But yeah, 984 00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,040 Speaker 1: I think, you know, whatever case we're doing, we should 985 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,280 Speaker 1: have considents in what we put out in our report, 986 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: so as long as we can stick to that, But 987 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,880 Speaker 1: you know, they do, they do want us to give 988 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:57,560 Speaker 1: our opinions as well, like not based on our findings, 989 00:59:57,560 --> 01:00:01,560 Speaker 1: which I really try to avoid. Uh, you know, just 990 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,720 Speaker 1: like I can only tell you what I see in 991 01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 1: my exam, and they have a lot more information about 992 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:09,840 Speaker 1: the case than we do to kind of make those inferences. 993 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:13,440 Speaker 1: And it's up to the officers and the prosecution to 994 01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:14,520 Speaker 1: put the story together. 995 01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,360 Speaker 2: So yeah, And isn't it like the court might be 996 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,720 Speaker 2: a whole year or later after you actually did the case. 997 01:00:21,760 --> 01:00:24,680 Speaker 2: So you're like, I don't I don't remember read my report. 998 01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:25,640 Speaker 2: This is what I saw. 999 01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:29,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, they they'll email me and say, hey, you're gonna 1000 01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:31,920 Speaker 1: get a subpoena from and they just give you the 1001 01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,840 Speaker 1: animal's name maybe or like I'm like, I have no 1002 01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,600 Speaker 1: idea what case that is. I'm going to need a 1003 01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:38,880 Speaker 1: date range or something. 1004 01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:41,880 Speaker 2: Right, You're like, I've done fifty this week, Like what 1005 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 2: do you what do you want from me here? 1006 01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:44,840 Speaker 1: All right? 1007 01:00:44,840 --> 01:00:47,280 Speaker 2: Well, do you have anything else that that you want 1008 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:48,920 Speaker 2: to talk about that I didn't cover? 1009 01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,760 Speaker 1: Oh? I just saying, you know, for anyone that then 1010 01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,600 Speaker 1: is thinking about, you know, going into veterinary medicine, just 1011 01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:00,840 Speaker 1: keep all your options open. Can do a lot with 1012 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:04,400 Speaker 1: this degree or even any science degree like you mentioned. 1013 01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,080 Speaker 1: You know, look what's out there. There's a lot of 1014 01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:10,120 Speaker 1: careers that you might not have heard of. I think 1015 01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,520 Speaker 1: most people that I tell what my job is, they've 1016 01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,240 Speaker 1: never they don't know what pathology is, or didn't know 1017 01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,040 Speaker 1: that there are venternoring pathologists to any propsy. So just 1018 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:24,400 Speaker 1: to do your research and keep keep your auctions open, uh, 1019 01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:25,919 Speaker 1: for what you want to end up doing. 1020 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:29,360 Speaker 2: I love that this is this is so interesting and 1021 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,480 Speaker 2: I think what I gather from this whole interview is 1022 01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:35,360 Speaker 2: that your job is so cool and at any level 1023 01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:37,120 Speaker 2: if you just if you want to be a tech 1024 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:39,960 Speaker 2: so I guess if you went to there's like a 1025 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:44,200 Speaker 2: degree for associate's degree for vet tech. Right, it's associates, yes, man, 1026 01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:47,000 Speaker 2: Or if you want to go the full route and 1027 01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:49,240 Speaker 2: do the whole doctor. If you want to be a 1028 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,200 Speaker 2: doctor too, there's a different there's lots of different education 1029 01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:55,080 Speaker 2: levels that you could do this job. And on top 1030 01:01:55,120 --> 01:01:57,720 Speaker 2: of that, it's cool because I feel like in human 1031 01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,200 Speaker 2: medicine you have to pick like, Okay, do you want 1032 01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,360 Speaker 2: to do hospital pathology or forensic pathology, And with yours, 1033 01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:05,360 Speaker 2: it's like you can kind of do everything and see 1034 01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:08,240 Speaker 2: lots more. Honestly, it sounds really interesting. 1035 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:11,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's best job ever. 1036 01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:15,840 Speaker 2: So you've definitely sold me. I'm very interested in Thank 1037 01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,120 Speaker 2: you well, thanks for being here with us today. It 1038 01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:19,320 Speaker 2: was so nice meeting. 1039 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:20,480 Speaker 1: You, nice, feeding you to you. 1040 01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As 1041 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,920 Speaker 2: a reminder, my training is as a pathologists assistant. I 1042 01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,400 Speaker 2: have a master's level education and specialize in anatomy and 1043 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:41,040 Speaker 2: pathology education. I am not a doctor and I have 1044 01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:44,880 Speaker 2: not diagnosed or treated anyone dead or alive without the 1045 01:02:44,920 --> 01:02:50,240 Speaker 2: assistance of a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, 1046 01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,640 Speaker 2: and social media accounts are designed to educate and inform 1047 01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:57,920 Speaker 2: people based on my experience working in pathology, so they 1048 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,360 Speaker 2: can make healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. 1049 01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,360 Speaker 2: Always remember that science is changing. Every day, and the 1050 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,720 Speaker 2: opinions expressed in this episode are based on my knowledge 1051 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 2: of those subjects at the time of publication. If you 1052 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:16,320 Speaker 2: are having a medical problem, have a medical question, or 1053 01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:20,760 Speaker 2: having a medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit 1054 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:25,840 Speaker 2: an urgent care center, emergency room, or hospital. Please rate, review, 1055 01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:30,360 Speaker 2: and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, 1056 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:42,919 Speaker 2: or anywhere you get podcasts. Thanks