1 00:00:07,400 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: I'm traveling this week, one last trip before the end 3 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: of summer, so no monologue today, but stay tuned for 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: an interview with John Gabriel. 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 2: My guest today is John Gabriel, columnist for Discourse Magazine 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 2: and the Arizona Republic. Hi. 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 3: John, Hi, how you doing? 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 2: So nice to have you on. 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 3: Oh, great to be here. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: Well, I you know, I made the joke when I 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 2: first saw you that you know, I don't recognize you 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: with the top lip. You know, people will be listening 13 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 2: to this, but I'll have some video for them also, 14 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 2: that you're a very iconic profile picture you're drinking out 15 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 2: of a cup and so that's you know, the joke here. 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 2: But how did you what made you do that? And 17 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: how have you maintained it for this long? 18 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 3: Well, the main reason I maintained it is anytime I 19 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 3: tried to change it early on, people would yell at me, like, 20 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: I don't recognize you. But it was just I was 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 3: in Chicago, My wife and I were there outside the 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 3: douche Ist Name in the World Intelligentsia coffee. Oh, and 23 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: I was sitting my Machiato outdoors in Chicago, and she 24 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 3: apparently took a picture. She's like, Okay, now take mine, 25 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 3: and so that just became my profile photo because it's like, yeah, 26 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 3: I'm a real person, but I don't want all my 27 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,600 Speaker 3: personal info out there because I still worked in the 28 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 3: private sector. And then when I came out of the 29 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 3: closet as a conservative and included my full name, I 30 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 3: kept trying to change it and people would be very 31 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 3: very mean to me. So I gave into the trolls 32 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,640 Speaker 3: and I just maintained it as it. So that has 33 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 3: been my picture since I joined Twitter, which is probably 34 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 3: like two thousand and eight. Wow. 35 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I understand bullying you into keeping it. I support them. 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,560 Speaker 2: I have to say, I definitely didn't picture you as 37 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: a macchiato guy, though I thought, you know. 38 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I've always loved good coffee, and I'm a 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: real jerk about it as well. So I annoy my 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 3: friends who have inferior Oh we're going to Starbucks. I'm like, uh, 41 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 3: it's a durable So I'm that guy, right, So. 42 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: What kind of coffee do you like? 43 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 3: What's your I usually I like Macchiato's, but I usually 44 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 3: just get a pour over. I usually just make it 45 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 3: at home or I go to some hipster place. The 46 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 3: only place I ever get compliments on my World War 47 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 3: One facial hair is from Barista's, a very hipster shop. 48 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 3: So that's cool, man, I see that these are my people. 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean hipsters. They're good at some stuff. Yeah, 50 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 2: I give them that. They know how to make coffee. 51 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 2: I feel like there's a couple of dishes that they like. 52 00:02:55,919 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 2: You know, they do nail burnt ends. I feel as 53 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: a very hips restaurant dish that like. 54 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 3: The bands that are popular now before those bands sold out. 55 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 3: So that's another thing I'm guilty of. 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: So right, yeah, they know how to do some stuff. 57 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: So what made you make the transition from the private 58 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 2: sector into being a public person and a writer. What 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: was the kind of turning point? 60 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I worked for many years right high school, 61 00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 3: joined the Navy, then got into I got a degree 62 00:03:29,560 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 3: in journalism. But I could see that print journalism, which 63 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 3: is what I wanted to do, was doomed. Everybody could 64 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: kind of see it, and so I went into I 65 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 3: started a little graft design business and marketing business, just 66 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 3: basically make beer money in college, and so I continued 67 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 3: with that for many years, probably fifteen years something like that. 68 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: And the last place I worked in that field was 69 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: an electronic health records company and about a year after 70 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 3: I was hired there, Obama took off us passed the stimulus, 71 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 3: and he was giving away quote unquote free money to 72 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 3: people buying our product essentially, and everybody at my company 73 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 3: was very progressive and they're like, Oh, we're just going 74 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 3: to be so rich. And I'm like, people have no 75 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:21,239 Speaker 3: idea what you're in for, right, needles to say, nothing 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 3: but regulations, crazy restrictions and is really free exactly exactly. 77 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: Ours focused on people, the hunter By patients, the detoc centers, 78 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 3: but also all behavioral health which have their own crazy 79 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: privacy requirements, and we were you know, they demanded we 80 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 3: asked about old age stuff, you know, if you're pregnant 81 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 3: or not, how long you've been smoking, these kind of 82 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,400 Speaker 3: things that had nothing to do with our model, and 83 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 3: actually some violated the law because we're not supposed to 84 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 3: ask stuff like that. So I could see that regulations 85 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 3: were going to kill us. And around the same time, 86 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: the Goldwater Institute, which is a state based thing tank 87 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 3: here in the Phoenix area, they were hiring a director 88 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 3: of marketing, so I went for it, got a job there, 89 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: and that was kind of like my policy boot camp. 90 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: But I've always cared a lot about policy and politics, 91 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 3: probably more policy than politics, and worked there for a 92 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: couple of years, got a really good grounding on you know, 93 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 3: every couple of weeks I was focused on, you know, 94 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 3: school choice one week, tax policy one week, business regulations 95 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 3: the next. So it was a really good place to learn. 96 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: And when I left there, I was planning on once 97 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 3: again doing marketing, consulting and things, but people kept asking 98 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 3: me to write, so I stuck with writing and it 99 00:05:43,040 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 3: it really held. So I was at until January of 100 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 3: this year with Ricochet dot com as their editor in chief. 101 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 3: Now I am a columnist for Discourse magazine. I write 102 00:05:56,120 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: scripts for a video company called Kitanky Media, so you'll 103 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: always see me promoting their videos every couple of weeks. 104 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: They do great stuff on this That's what I like 105 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: them a lot. 106 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, it's a really great group. And also I've 107 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 3: written for the local paper the years on a Republic 108 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 3: for I think like seven years now. Wow, So that's 109 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 3: I'm kind of the conservative. They tolerate the housebroken conservative 110 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: I guess I can say, but I don't know. Hopefully 111 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 3: changing a mind here or there, we'll see. 112 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. So it's interesting because I think that people don't 113 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: know how much behind the scenes stuff happens. Like you said, 114 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: you know, the stimulus, Obama stimulus, you know, basically pushed 115 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: you from one career to another, Right, I feel like 116 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: that's an untold story about stuff like that. Like for example, 117 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 2: I actually I have never told the story on the show, 118 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: but I owned a what it's called a blowout nailbar 119 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: in New York. Yeah, when Obama was president, and right 120 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: when he was passing Obamacare, we were like, it's really 121 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 2: hard to own a business anywhere, but in New York 122 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 2: it was really really hard. We were like barely breaking 123 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 2: even and he passed they passed Obamacare, and we were like, well, 124 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: we're done here because we can't we will not be 125 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: able to afford this. So he closed our business. And 126 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 2: you just I feel like stories like that kind of 127 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: go untold. 128 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's something I've always been on the sidelines. 129 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 3: And I ran a kind of a semi anonymous blog 130 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: I just went by John was it called ex Serbent League, 131 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 3: and it was we're sort of getting picked up by 132 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 3: like Rush and you Hewitt and hot Air and places 133 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 3: like that. But I had to keep kind of anonymous 134 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: because I was working in the private sector and it 135 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 3: seemed like most of the places I worked, where you know, 136 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 3: the CEO would always be a very virtual signaling kind 137 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 3: of person. So it's just like, okay, I'll do this 138 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 3: on the side, but that's it. But once I saw 139 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: the regulations coming in, I'm like, okay, things are getting 140 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: really bad. And I basically told my bosses you will laugh. 141 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 3: About two years and to the month. Two years later, 142 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 3: they had been absorbed into a big company that could 143 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 3: afford all the lobbyists and things, and you know, probably 144 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 3: three quarters the people off their job, A few are 145 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 3: brought into the new company. And that particular industry, we 146 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: had about seven eight companies serving that. Now there's one 147 00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 3: company who just went swept in bought everything every little 148 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: company out there, and so now there's no consumer choice. 149 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 3: They can charge whatever they want, and of course the 150 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: government will pay them because they can afford lobbyists and 151 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 3: lawyers and have a fully staffed office in Washington, DC. 152 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, amazing how that really works out for that. 153 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 1: Right, We're going to take a quick break and be 154 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: right back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 155 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 2: So you get to write about whatever you want, and 156 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:57,600 Speaker 2: you have pursued your dreams of being a writer, and 157 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 2: you left a successful job. I know you have a 158 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: great family. Do you feel like you've made it? 159 00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 3: No? No, maybe when I cross at it, yeah, yeah. 160 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 3: I always just want to feel like an underdog kind 161 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 3: of Something that actually really helps is living. I live 162 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,319 Speaker 3: in Arizona. You know, when I left the Goldwarter Institute, 163 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 3: a lot of people are like, Okay, we've got jobs 164 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 3: at d C, and you've got to move to d C. 165 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 3: I know you fled to Florida, which is very very smart, 166 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 3: but a lot of people wanting me to move there 167 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 3: or to Austin because that's when the people were starting 168 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: to move from like California to Austin. But my kids 169 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 3: were just about to start high school. I'm like, I 170 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 3: don't want to do this to them. But also it's like, 171 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 3: it would be nice to have a perspective from outside 172 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 3: of the Beltway, in our way, outside of the media centers, 173 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 3: New York, LA, even Silicon Valley, just outside of that, 174 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 3: because everybody I know who has moved to d C 175 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 3: and nothing against them because I would do the exact 176 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 3: same thing. Yeah, you get you get the virus, you 177 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: get kind of consumed by it. What you think actually 178 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: matters is what your neighbors think matters in DC, and 179 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 3: no one actually cares about it and the country yeah right, 180 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 3: And also you get kind of co opted into a group. 181 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 3: It's like, why did you like that tweet by that conservative? 182 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 3: He's not a tribe and he once opposed me when 183 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 3: I ran for precinct committee chair in this precinct in 184 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: rural Virginia, and I'm like, I don't care. I don't 185 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 3: care about any of this. And a lot of people 186 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 3: there are very few people who can stand up to that. 187 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 3: Someone who's been a friend since I was like an 188 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 3: anonymous blogger, Mully Hemingway and her husband Mark, she's one 189 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 3: who can stand yeah, And she's one that I'll just say, 190 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 3: I don't care, I don't care, I'm going to do this, 191 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 3: and she does it. But I know that when I 192 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: was there a couple of years, and my kids are 193 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 3: on the cross country team with that politician's kids. It's 194 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: just it just kind of adapt and I never wanted 195 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: to do that. And I think being growing up out 196 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 3: West and living out here, you just have And Florida 197 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 3: has a lot of those two Texas cours does, but 198 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 3: the Mountain West you just have a strong separation from 199 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: what they're doing on Wall Street, what they're doing in 200 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 3: DC especially. Yeah, And there's an innate mabe the attitude 201 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 3: right right in Washington. And when government says, Okay, there's 202 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,440 Speaker 3: a problem, we should do A or we should do B, 203 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 3: and you need those people out there saying, why are 204 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 3: you involved at all? There's no reason for you to 205 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 3: be involved. It's like, yeah, Democrats want to spend three trillion, 206 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 3: Republicans want to spend two point seven trillions. How about 207 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 3: you don't spend money and we figure it out. You know, 208 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 3: it's not that difficult. 209 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, what would you say is our largest cultural problem? 210 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 3: Wow, that's really tough. I'm just going to say this 211 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 3: because I've been writing about it. But I would say 212 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 3: I've been reading a lot more of their early founding 213 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,839 Speaker 3: fathers on the importance of virtue. And I come from 214 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 3: a background very libertarian ish. I was never full blown libertarian, 215 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 3: because I think if you take it all the way, 216 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 3: it gets pretty utopian, and it's very kind of materialistic 217 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 3: but there's no room for the virtue of the people. 218 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 3: And so many of the founding fathers said, look, you know, 219 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 3: Ben Franklin a Republican if you can keep it. John 220 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 3: Adams has always going about this is a great system. 221 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 3: It only works if you have a virtuous people. And 222 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 3: of course we're all screwed up, We're all going to 223 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 3: make mistakes. And if anybody says, well, I'm very virtuous, 224 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 3: I instinctively don't trust them. But people who give a 225 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 3: crap You need at least that people who are trying 226 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 3: to do the right thing, trying to figure it out. 227 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: And now it's just okay, which candidate will give me 228 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 3: more money which will help my little identity group, instead 229 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 3: of saying, hey, we're all in this together, and why 230 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 3: don't we work on this. The border is a key example. 231 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 3: Rampant unchecked immigration, legal immigration. It hurts everybody, and living 232 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 3: in Arizona most of my life, it hurts those people 233 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 3: crossing the borders most of all. On this is something 234 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 3: the left always just glides over. But the cartels are ugly. 235 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 3: Cartel violence is seeping into Arizona more and more. You 236 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: have massive human trafficking. And I remember writing a column 237 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 3: years ago about there's a place called Sasa Bay, which 238 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 3: is just across the border, the Arizona border into Mexico, 239 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 3: and there's a field of crosses everywhere, just in an 240 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 3: empty desert, and it's all the immigrants who died of 241 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 3: the heat and thirst and hunger in the deserts. Basically 242 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 3: all these family members who went to El Norte and 243 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 3: they never heard from them again. So there's just crosses 244 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: for all of them. And it's just like, yeah, I 245 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 3: would rather not have that. I would rather have them 246 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 3: be alive. And maybe some of them say, hey, can 247 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 3: I get a visa to go to UCLA or whatever? Awesome, 248 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: that's great, come on in, but sign the guest book. 249 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 3: Make sure we know who's here. And when you have 250 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 3: a bunch of military age people from nations that are very, 251 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 3: very hostile to us, this is not a good thing 252 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: for the future. And it's something if you just talk 253 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: casually to people, ninety percent of Americans would agree with you, 254 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 3: but they'll have to jump into our political modes. And 255 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: oh well, actually Biden's not even old when you think 256 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: about it. You know, just all this nonsense that people 257 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 3: feel the need to defend. This goofy guys. 258 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean those silos are what caused the problems, right. 259 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: But I think on immigration, that's a really great example 260 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 2: because when you talk to kind of normal people, not 261 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 2: very political people, it doesn't matter if they vote Democrat 262 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: or Republican, but if they're not, like just immersed in politics, 263 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 2: obviously we should have a border that we have control over. 264 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: It just becomes one of those things that like there's 265 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 2: other obvious like I find similar things like should biological 266 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 2: boys play in girls' sports? Like it doesn't matter who 267 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: they vote for, nobody thinks that they should, you know, 268 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 2: So I just I think that getting to the normal 269 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 2: people who have normal opinions on this kind of thing 270 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 2: and getting like the loud, crazy voices out of the way. 271 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: It's a tough, it's tough to do, but it's what 272 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 2: we need to be doing. 273 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:42,880 Speaker 3: Yeah. And I will get asked by a lot of 274 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 3: conservatives writing for the local paper, because of course it's 275 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 3: left leaning. You know, it's shocking that any kind of 276 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 3: conservative opinion ever gets published in there, let alone once 277 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,200 Speaker 3: a week, and a lot of people said, I can't 278 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: believe you write for them, Why are you shilling for them? 279 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 3: I grew up and mostly worked in, as I said, 280 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 3: progressive environments. I'm used to talking to these people, and 281 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 3: when you work with them day after day, you find 282 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 3: out how to present things to them, like school choice 283 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 3: and kind of lese a Rise on a viral clip 284 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 3: about a week ago, just talking about you know, you 285 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: send all your kids to sivil friends and talk about 286 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: you know, the dispossessed and the downtrodden. Yeah, you have 287 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: school choice because you can afford it, and it should 288 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 3: be available to everybody. So when I have family members 289 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 3: who are kind of not very involved in politics, they 290 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 3: usually vote but their center left because that's the right 291 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 3: thing to do kind of a thing. And when I 292 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 3: hear from them, hey, I really liked your article that 293 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 3: you change my mind on this, I'm like, that's a 294 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 3: huge you know, I'm not going to turn them into 295 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 3: reading Frederick Bastiat and opposing un funding. But if you 296 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 3: can nudge some of these people a little bit exactly exactly, 297 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 3: kind of change the narrative a little bit, because people 298 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 3: assume the media narrative too many times is correct, and 299 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 3: we all know it's no. 300 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I'm all about talking, you know, going into left 301 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: spaces and talking to them. Like some things I don't know, 302 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 2: like a lot of the debates we see online, I 303 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 2: don't know that those are very useful. But in general, 304 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 2: like I've been asked like would you go on CNN, 305 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: would you go on MSNBC? Of course I would. Of 306 00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: course I would love to present my opinion to an 307 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: audience that maybe hasn't heard it before. And I don't 308 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 2: think there's anything wrong with that. I think that's the 309 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 2: way to change minds and that's the way to go 310 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 2: about it. And the idea of like how why would 311 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:43,919 Speaker 2: you give these people the time of day, It's like, 312 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 2: because I want to change in our minds and that 313 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,880 Speaker 2: that's why. That's why I would do that. But it's tough. 314 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:55,200 Speaker 2: It's it's tough because of the you know, again back 315 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: to the idea that we're in our little bubbles and 316 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 2: you're not even allowed to jump between you know, inner 317 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: conservative bubbles. 318 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 3: Right, it's uh right, right, And you're not going to 319 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 3: change say when he was there, you're not going to 320 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 3: change Don Lemon's money. But there is a viewer who's 321 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 3: a Don Lemon viewer who's like, oh wait a minute, 322 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 3: that makes sense, you know, But Don Lemon. 323 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 2: Needs to be more moderate, you know, exactly. So just 324 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: the fact that somebody who's maybe watching him back then 325 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: and continues watching him as he slides to the left right, 326 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 2: I think that that person's still reachable. I think that 327 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 2: moderate is still reachable. I also think that, you know, 328 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 2: going back to your like living in Arizona and not 329 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: living in DC, my world is mostly you know, normis. 330 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,239 Speaker 2: It's not political, local people, and I like that. I 331 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: like that they don't come with, you know, kind of 332 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: all the baggage that we have. They're sort of open 333 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 2: to possibilities or hearing things. They're called kind of the 334 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 2: undecided voters, but that's not really it. They don't really 335 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 2: care that much about holidays, and they don't carry it 336 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 2: around with them all day. They don't think about it 337 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: all day. They don't think about it every day. And 338 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 2: that's good. That's the way it should do. 339 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's great. And another thing too, is I've had 340 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 3: to write several times, especially when you had racial unrest 341 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 3: and Black Lives Matter and the reaction to that and stuff. 342 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 3: I had to write a lot of times because I'm 343 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 3: online and it's just this basically erased war going on, 344 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 3: and everybody hates each other and this group hates this group. 345 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 3: I'm like, it's funny because I just got back from 346 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 3: the grocery store and a black guy held the door 347 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 3: for me, and I held the door for a Hispanic 348 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 3: woman when I was leaving, and everybody got along great. 349 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 3: And we were in a long line, and we're all 350 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 3: telling jokes to each other, and they probably had different religions, 351 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,679 Speaker 3: different income levels. Everybody got along great. And this is 352 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 3: normy America. Most people do, and our politicians really want 353 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 3: us at each other's throats. And so it's really important to, 354 00:19:57,240 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 3: you know, as my daughter say, touch grass and get 355 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: out there and see real people, because most of the 356 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 3: country is just not all charged up about politics. They're 357 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 3: upset about what's going on with the country. Maybe they 358 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,359 Speaker 3: lean left or right, maybe they've voted D or R, 359 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 3: but most people are just trying to figure out how 360 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,239 Speaker 3: to pay their higher grocery bill and fill up their 361 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 3: gas tank and they're just chatting with people at the 362 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 3: barber shop. Most people are still normal out there, and 363 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:28,679 Speaker 3: if you can reach a couple of them, you've made 364 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 3: a difference. 365 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: That's exactly it. Not Touch grass is actually like has 366 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 2: become my favorite saying I think a lot of people 367 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 2: need to go and touch some grass. 368 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,919 Speaker 3: I'm in Arizona, so it's kind of touch sand or 369 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 3: touch rocks. 370 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 2: But you know, same biff, right, you guys are like 371 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: at one hundred and fifteen degrees right now, No, carefully 372 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 2: touch that grass. 373 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 3: I know, I know. And then has some alo vera 374 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 3: available so you can treat the massive birds you get. 375 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,440 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and be right 376 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 2: back on the Perl Marcowitch show. Well, I love talking 377 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 2: to you. This has been really great, and here with 378 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 2: your best tip from my listeners on how they can 379 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 2: improve their lives. 380 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 3: Oh okay, I will say, because I've turned into a 381 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 3: nerd about this. Probably about four or five years ago. 382 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 3: My daughters were going to a charter school that was 383 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 3: a classical academy, and when they started, I got their 384 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,239 Speaker 3: reading list and it's all Plato and Dostoevsky and all 385 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 3: these other people that smart people read that I've never 386 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 3: gotten around to. You know, I was the kid in 387 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 3: the back of the high school class with the cliff 388 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 3: notes hidden in the book. And I've read experts talking 389 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 3: about Dante, but I didn't read Dante, and I was like, oh, crap, 390 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: my girls are going to be smarter than me. This 391 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 3: will not stand because I need to keep my ego 392 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 3: nice and high. So I just started at the beginning 393 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 3: and started with the Iliad and Odyssey and started reading. 394 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 3: And I highly recommend it because I thought it would 395 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 3: be like eating my vegetables. Okay, I got a power 396 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 3: through and read this dry, old, boring garbage because other 397 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: smart people do. And after I got like a chapter 398 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 3: two into the iliadom like, this is the coolest thing 399 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,440 Speaker 3: I've ever read, and I finally realized, Oh, they're classics 400 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 3: because they're fun to read. That's why they've been reading. 401 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 3: Yes they're important, Yes there's deep thoughts, Yes, smart people 402 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 3: reference it. But most of them are fun stories. That's 403 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 3: why they've been around for two thousand years. And they're cool, 404 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 3: and so just pick up an old book and start reading. Also, 405 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 3: I've noticed it's kind of a counterprogramming for the nonsense 406 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 3: of the day. People have been the same going back 407 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 3: four thousand years, and they'll be the same a thousand 408 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 3: years later. Basically, human nature's flowed or all goofballs and 409 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 3: are yeah yeah, and when you see, oh, they're having 410 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 3: the same issues. I'm reading about the Roman Empire, and 411 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 3: they're saying, oh, well, this politician wants to be popular, 412 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,439 Speaker 3: so he keeps on spending all this money. I'm like, wow, 413 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 3: what a wildly diffamiliar Yeah, exactly so. And it's also 414 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 3: kind of counterprogramming to kind of see how people thought 415 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 3: for the vast majority of human history and whatever wokiness 416 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 3: is popular this week that even the woke people will 417 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,239 Speaker 3: forget about a year from now. It just kind of, 418 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 3: I don't know, counterprogramming for the hysteria of the moment. 419 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 2: I love that. I'm going to go read the Iliad. 420 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for coming on, John, thanks for 421 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 2: having check him out on Twitter ex John at ex 422 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 2: Joen read his stuff. He's really great. 423 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,120 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 424 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 1: Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.