WEBVTT - Part Two: Ancient Genocide and the War on Carthage 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:05.680 Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and for the last two years, 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:09.120 behind the Bastards listeners have funded the Portland Diaper Bank, 0:00:09.200 --> 0:00:13.600 which provides diapers for low income families. Uh. Last year 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.840 y'all raised more than twenty one thousand dollars, which was 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.800 able to purchase one point one million diapers for children 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:23.720 and families in need in one um. And this year 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:27.720 we're trying to get dollars raised for the Portland Diaper Bank, 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:31.560 which is going to allow us to help even more kids. 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.120 So UM, if you want to help, you can go 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:37.680 to bTB fundraiser for pd X Diaper Bank at go 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.200 fund me. Just type and go fund me b TB 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:43.400 Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank. Again, that's go fund Me 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.960 bTB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank, or find the link 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:53.559 in the show notes. Thank you all. Oh what's shitting 0:00:53.680 --> 0:01:02.680 Orange my Joe? That's hell yeah, just for for for us, 0:01:02.920 --> 0:01:07.800 for nobody else a time. How you doing, Joe for 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:11.320 part two of our genocide Spectacular? I'm good. UM, you 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:16.680 know I I often um and like my people that 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:20.160 listen to my show often joke that I surprise my 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:24.000 guests with the genocide. Uh. And this time it gets 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:27.040 to happen to me and it's it's quite nice. You know. 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.120 I did almost open this episode with what's eliminating ethnic groups? 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:33.880 My every people in the history of the human race, 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.600 But that wouldn't I just didn't want to see Sophie's 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:44.720 disappointed face one more time. I can feel her shaking 0:01:44.760 --> 0:01:48.680 her head. No, across the internet, she always is somewhere. Probert, 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:53.640 you could never disappoint me. I often have. So Part two, 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:56.520 everybody's good to go. This is behind the bastards, by 0:01:56.520 --> 0:01:59.120 the way, you're Joka Sabian, co hosted the Lions Led 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:01.880 by Donkeys podcast, asked, let's get back to some genocide, 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:06.120 so as I'm sure everyone listening to this show is 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.280 aware of. The United States is currently in a bit 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.400 of a moral panic over the fact that transgender people exist. Uh. 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.320 The groomer discourse, which has arisen on the right wing 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:18.200 um in which trans and now increasingly all queer people 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:20.120 are accused of being child molesters. Are one of the 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:23.240 child molesters because they like write books that tell kids 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.640 that people who aren't aren't this gender exist. Um, yeah, 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.000 the folks have been accusing this. Are folks like on 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:33.280 the left and queer people have been pointing out that 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.920 this is eliminationist rhetoric. Right this is potentially the kind 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.600 of rhetoric that can lead to a genocide. Um. And 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.000 the basic fear is that right wing thought leaders are 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.960 trying to convince their followers that transgender people are pedophilic 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:47.120 monsters because you can do anything to pedophiles, right, Like 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:51.200 it is exactly so if you can like lump a 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:53.520 group of people and is being that it doesn't matter 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.760 what you do to them. Um. Now, I've seen a 0:02:55.840 --> 0:02:58.200 number of number of posts in this line on on 0:02:58.280 --> 0:03:01.400 the int our webs that have brought Dr Gregory Stanton's 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.960 ten stages of genocide, which he laid out in nineteen 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:08.200 eight six and were revamped in UM. Step one is 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:12.120 classification e g. Splitting society into us in them rather 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:15.079 than using mixed categories. This is not always done intentionally. 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:17.720 This often just kind of happens, but it can feed 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.280 and do what later becomes a genocide. Next is symbolization, 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.600 which gives names or symbols to the classification. The most 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:26.760 obvious example of this from history would be the yellow 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:28.680 star that Jewish people were forced to wear a Nazi 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.280 Germany or indeed the purple triangle that that that homosexual 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.840 people were made to wear. Um. Next comes discrimination on 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.520 a legal basis, and then to humanization, which is comparison 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.400 of members of the target group to insects or vermin um. 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:45.120 This is also this is not in his list, but 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:49.160 plague bacillus is a really common one, particularly by the Nazis. Um. 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:50.600 I think that had something to do with the fact 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:52.560 that there had been a plague not that long before 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:59.800 the rise of the Nazis, famously in Rwanda. Yes, cockroaches. Uh. 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:01.960 We will chat about a little bit more later. Um. 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.040 And then there's organization, which is the forming of militias 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:09.400 and other not crucially nonstate groups geared towards the elimination 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:13.520 of targeted people. Polarization is number six, in which extremists 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.320 drive groups apart and broadcast propaganda in the mass media 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.080 to indoctrinate people with hate. Now, most of the time 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:21.320 when I see people bringing up stantons tend stages of 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:23.680 genocide to talk about how that's where the rights trying 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.640 to push people. Uh, they will least the United States 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:29.520 at either step four or step six. And you can 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:32.320 certainly make a strong case for either. UM. But while 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:35.120 doctor Stanton scale has has its uses, I'm not like 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.240 shipping on it or anything. I think the way in 0:04:37.240 --> 0:04:41.120 which people are interpreting it leads to some inaccurate beliefs 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.800 about how genocide tends to proceed um. And it overall 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:48.400 pushes people towards a more mechanistic and centralized view of 0:04:48.440 --> 0:04:53.120 how genocides occur. UM. And while this discan't this does 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:56.240 describe some historic genocides well, because he's looking back at 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:58.920 genocides and trying to describe them in stages, I don't 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:03.680 know that it's super used in predicting them um. Which right, UM, 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.040 I would argue that it's not UM simply, I mean, 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.520 I'm not, of course, I'm not hating in its research, 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.200 as research is great. It's just um, I think it 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:17.320 takes a lot of agency from the perpetrators of genocides themselves. UM. 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.000 I think it's very good. UM. And I mean even 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.320 Strauss sometimes does this as well. It's very good to 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.960 everyone does when you're doing this kind of history right 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:29.400 to right stint. Yeah, it's it's something. It's very very 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:33.400 good to understand the organization of the radical core that 0:05:33.480 --> 0:05:39.440 makes all genocides possible, but isn't inevitable radical cores conform 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:42.560 and there can still not be a genocide, yes, um 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:45.159 And I also like the kind of the fact that 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.320 we're sort of critiquing this doesn't mean we're not saying, like, 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:49.920 for example, trans people should not be concerned about the 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.600 rhetoric coming up the right as elimination is not saying 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:56.240 that at all. Just I think focusing on the stages 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.200 in the way that people do kind of leads people 0:05:59.240 --> 0:06:01.960 to inaccurate that expectations about how things proceed and have 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.520 proceeded historically. And that's what we're going to talk about today. 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:08.559 Um So in order to get into that, let's start 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.919 with another example from ancient history. This is one that 0:06:10.920 --> 0:06:13.720 you brought up to me, Joe, when I mentioned that 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.520 I wanted to do this episode. The Asian Vespers of 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:21.520 eight eight b C. The Asiatic vespers. Romans got the 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.479 hit with the reverse card. Yes, exactly, Yeah, this is 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.160 the uno reverse of the of the genocide that they 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.320 did in Carthage. Um. So, starting in like ninety one 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.360 b C, Romans had what they called the social War, 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:36.880 which was social because the people they lived next to 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.680 Italians were not Roman citizens, but they had to submit 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.320 to some Roman policies. They couldn't vote, they weren't like, 0:06:43.640 --> 0:06:45.719 I don't know, as a general rule, when people have 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.159 to submit to policies by a government but have no 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:50.920 say in that government, they can get unhappy with that. 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:53.440 This is not a thing Americans would be familiar with, right, 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.039 nothing like that has ever happened here. Um, That never 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:00.560 never occurred in this part of the world. So eventually 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.960 the Italians go to war with the Romans. I'm not 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:04.560 going to get into detail about that, but they call 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:06.440 it the social War, which is funny because it is 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:09.080 unbelievably brutal. And this is also this is a pattern 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.680 in Roman history where like a group of people who 0:07:11.760 --> 0:07:15.160 are close to the imperial corps will have an uprising 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.320 because their rights are being denied, and they will make 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:19.480 demands which will be denied, and then they'll fight a war. 0:07:19.760 --> 0:07:22.040 The Romans will crush them brutally and then grant most 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:25.680 of the demands later. That's what happens here because like, 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.480 the Italians get everything they want after the Romans wipe 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.000 out like a generation of them. Yeah, there's few of 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:37.520 your rights to so exactly for us, um, so yeah, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:41.480 the Rome is at war with Italy uh in this period. 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.840 And while this is all going down, um there's a 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.040 you know this place called Pontus, which is in the 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:51.120 modern day Black Sea region of Turkey. Um and the 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.960 guy who runs it is a king named mithradit s 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.920 mythri Dates uh whatever you want to call him, the 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.520 six and he starts like rubbing his hands together like 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:01.600 that guy in that meme, you know, the me the 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.880 guy rubbing his hands together. It wasn't a birdman's doing this, 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:09.160 That's exactly mithraddyes is like that's what he's doing, looking 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:11.640 at Rome fighting Italy, like oh yeah, I'm gonna get 0:08:11.680 --> 0:08:18.400 some ship. So famously, uh Mithradates uh was also related 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.800 and again this is something that goes back through histories. 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.880 It's related into the neighboring kingdom of Armenia and the 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:31.240 partness as well they share to um so Rome and 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.400 the people's and like that whole region of the world, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:36.920 you know, the code which generally like they'll call these 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.160 guys like uh, Persians a lot of the time, like 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.520 it's all like it's this, you know, it's Asia, right, 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.440 Like that's what the to the ROMs. This is just 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.280 Asia um and they fought a while, and they would 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.600 fight many more wars in the future. Um. So old 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:53.839 Mithraddys decides that, like, while the Republic's got his back turned, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:56.520 he's going to annex to neighboring kingdoms that have like 0:08:56.880 --> 0:09:00.800 tight relationships with Rome, primarily like trading based. So because 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:03.080 Rome has so much economic interest in the area. They 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:06.000 have a Roman commission to Asia. Um and the guy 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.280 who's running it, basically the guy who's running the Roman 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.800 Commission to Asia is like, hey, methradityas you can't annex 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:14.760 these places. You have to give them back to their kings. 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:16.640 You have to restore their sovereignty. And the head of 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:18.640 the Roman commission doesn't do this because he's a cool dude, 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.720 but because he's been bribed, right, like these guys paid 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.240 him to do it. Um. Because you know, stuff can't 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:27.040 come back, Like it's not like Rome is centralized for 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:29.040 the day. But it's not like he can radio back 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:30.360 home and be like what do you want me to do? 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:34.680 Like that takes like six months to get anything back, right. Um. So, 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:38.480 the two countries that Methraddys had annexed, Cappadocia and Bithnia 0:09:38.840 --> 0:09:41.800 get freed because Methradityas doesn't really want a straight up 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.160 fight with the Romans at this date. But they now 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.760 owe the chief Roman dude in the area a lot 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:48.640 of money because they promised to pay him for this. 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.559 Now this guy, this dude who like makes Mathradityas leave 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.559 and gets bribed, is Mannius Aquillus Aquilius. We don't actually 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.400 know how any of these names were pronounced, because here's 0:09:57.400 --> 0:09:59.120 the fun thing. As a guy who took three years 0:09:59.120 --> 0:10:01.520 of Latin, nobody in knows how ancient Latin was pronounced. 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.360 We know how people have said like ecclesiastic Latin, but 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.480 it is different, like nobody actually understands exactly how Romans 0:10:08.480 --> 0:10:12.439 would have said everything. Um So Mannius Aquilius, head of 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:16.959 the Roman delegation, tells the king of I think Cappadocia 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.960 and Nikomedes that a good way to get money that 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.400 he owes Mannius might be by invading Pontus and taking 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:26.600 their stuff. Now, the fact that they had just been 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:29.080 annexed by Pontas, if you're a smart person, you may 0:10:29.120 --> 0:10:30.920 be like, well, maybe these guys can't beat Pontus in 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:34.400 a war. If this just happened right, like, maybe their 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.320 invasion won't go well, maybe this is a stupid idea. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.560 You might think Mannius Aquillis would have would think that, 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.120 but he does not. So Nikamedes tries to invade Pontus, 0:10:44.440 --> 0:10:47.560 and they just ta get curb stomped by mithradityas um 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:52.840 just just absolutely pounded. So next, I'm gonna quote from 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:55.760 a write up for the University of Chicago's Encyclopedia Romana 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:00.400 quote mathread. Methraditys retook Cappadocia in Bitthania, defeating Ni comedies 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.400 at the river Amnius, fighting against chariots armed with sides 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.600 on the wheels. The army was terrified at seeing men 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.440 cutting halves and still breathing or mingled in fragments or 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.400 hanging on the sides, Overcome rather by the hideousness of 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.800 the spectacle, but then by loss of the fight. Fear 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:17.600 disordered their ranks. Methradity Is then swept into fr Gia 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:20.400 and the Roman province of Asia. Aquilius, who so ill 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.720 advisedly had precipitated the war without ratification from the Senate, 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:25.920 fled the mainland, but was given up by the citizens 0:11:25.920 --> 0:11:29.000 of Madeleine. Ridiculed and paraded on an ass. He eventually 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.439 was executed, relates Appian when Methradates poured golden molten gold 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.280 down his throat, thus rebuking the Romans for their bribe taking. 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.520 And this is a cool and good way of executing 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.520 like powerful rich people. That happens a bunch of times 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.000 to Romans in it Like this is not the last 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.400 time a Roman will be force fed molten gold in 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:51.160 this part of the world. It's pretty cool. It's objective, 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.840 like Methradity is. I'm not calling him a great guy, 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.000 but like, it's pretty cool to do this to guys 0:11:56.080 --> 0:11:58.880 like that. I want to say, this happens as someone Methradity. 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:03.320 I mean, um, it happens to um. Happen to these 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.760 um uh relatives later on, but I can't remember. Cool. 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:10.720 That's good. You know it famously happens, so you know 0:12:10.960 --> 0:12:13.319 later during the time of like Caesar, and you've got 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.120 like Caesar, Pompey and crasses Um and Crosses is like 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.040 the richest guy in the world at the time. Some 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.920 people will argue he's the richest dude there ever was. 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:23.600 He made like a big chunk of his fortune by 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:25.679 when there would be fires in Rome, he owned a 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.360 fire department and would go to people and he would 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:30.040 be like, you want me to save your house, you 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:32.800 gotta like give me your house, like sell me your 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:34.200 house and then you'll be able to get your ship 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.760 out at least. And like that's so big asshole. He 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.400 like goes to war in kind of this vague region 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:43.000 of the world against like Parthia because he's a dick 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.680 uh and his army gets its ass. Again. This is 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:47.440 one of those times where like the Romans lose like 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.199 a whole generation of young men. Um. And yeah, all 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:54.080 according to legend, he gets killed by having gold poured 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.200 down his throat to the richest man in history, which 0:12:56.240 --> 0:13:00.000 is neat army through the mountains of Parthia and getting wrecked. 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:02.199 It was like kind of an origin story for a 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:05.080 lot of important people in Roman Mark. Antony did that too. Yeah, 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.079 it's like getting chicken pox for Roman military leaders. She's 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.120 just gotta go get your ass wrecked in Asia. Um. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:16.079 So again, obviously, so far this is broadly speaking morally 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:19.760 unproblematic um within the context of ancient history. Um. But 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:21.880 if you know your Roman history, you know that, like 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:25.000 and maybe if this hadn't happened, if he'd gotten back 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:26.520 to Rome, there's a decent chance they would have like 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.720 executed Marcus, like thrown him off the Tarpeian rock or 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.160 something for for fucking around. Um they did that sometimes. 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:36.840 But now a Roman elected leader has been executed by 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:40.600 a foreign king, and Rome does not take kindly to 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:43.560 that ship. Um. So things start churning up for a war, 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:47.120 and Methreadityase or mithrid Dates whatever decides his first step 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:49.920 should be to cleanse his new territory of all Roman citizens. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:53.920 And this is where things get genociety. Quote A eight 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.520 b c. And a measure of the hatred felt for 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.240 the Romans in Asia. Methredites wrote secretly to all his 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.679 sat traps and city governors that on the thirtieth day 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:03.240 thereafter they should set up on all Romans and Italians 0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:05.640 in their towns, and upon their wives and children and 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.319 their freedmen of Italian birth, kill them and throw their 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:11.679 bodies out unburied, and share their goodsmith with King Mithraddys. 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.120 Tens of thousands were massacred. Valarious Maximus records eighty thousand deaths, 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.520 Plutarch A hundred and fifty thousand, and what has been 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:24.920 called the Asian or Ephesian vespers um. So yeah, this 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:29.640 this is a definitely genocide. Um, pretty pretty clear example 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.560 of a genocide, and one that happens very rapidly. It 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:35.440 might be most common, it might be most reasonable to 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.520 dry compare it to Rwanda, where there were there were 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.880 pre existing tensions because the Romans had kind of come 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.600 into this area with all the money. They were backed 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:47.120 by this state that had bossed people around. They were 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:49.760 like landlords and they were bankers, and they were like 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.280 seen as kind of economically oppressing people in the regions, 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.800 seen as arrogant, seen as like backed by this outside 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:59.320 state that was unfairly exerting power in the area. And 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:01.480 so people had been pissed for a while. And when 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.800 Methredys takes over and says like, hey, it's time to 0:15:04.800 --> 0:15:06.680 get rid of these motherfucker's, there's a lot of folks 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:08.280 who are like willing to do it because of these 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:13.440 pre existing ethnic tensions. Um. Yeah, obviously with the main 0:15:13.520 --> 0:15:18.080 difference of these ethnic tensions or actually different ethnicities and 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:21.400 not invented, yes, and not invented because these look like 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.240 dudes from Italy showing up in fucking Turkey, um, which 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.960 is actually again like with Garthiage, not all that far um. 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:33.720 But yeah, so um this upsets Rome. The whole story 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.440 ends after two more wars with Roman victory and the 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:38.120 death of Methred Eyes and the rise of a guy 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.760 named Sola who sucks ass. But that's a story for 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:45.360 another day. Um. Definitely an active historical gin side. It 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.040 does not. However, again, if we're talking about Dr Stanton scale, 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.520 it doesn't correspond directly to that. Now, there is an 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:53.800 us versus them component to the massacre right that exists 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.600 well prior to Methreadity is giving the order right, the 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:58.880 fact that there are these divisions that Romans are kind 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:02.360 of seen as other. But there's no build up to this. Really, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.200 there's no propaganda arm to to humanize them. There's no 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:09.360 gradual stage of separating Romans from other people in their community. Um. 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:14.000 He issues secret orders that local officials and their levies fulfill. Um, 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.240 and as an incentive, he divides the property of the 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.720 dead Romans between himself and the inhabitants of the city 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:23.320 that they're killed in. There. Yes, that's why, right, And 0:16:23.360 --> 0:16:26.120 this is this is the thing I think scholars obviously, 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:28.240 because we're quoting a bunch of scholars talk about this 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.479 a lot, but is a general rule when people popularly 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:35.080 discussed genocide, they almost never talked about how fucking much 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.480 of it is about money. Yeah. Uh, it's starting to 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:41.760 become more accepted now. Um. Like, like we talked about 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:44.000 I think in the very beginning of the last episode, 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:47.640 is that people really wanted to believe that every perpetrator 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:50.960 of a genocide is a dead eyed psycho who's a 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:56.960 dead set racial baganda. Yeah. I mean that's pretty pretty 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:00.760 solidly thrown out the window by Christopher Brownings were um 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.560 and ordinary men, which then spawned one of the worst 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:06.920 books on the Holocaust I think I've ever read, called 0:17:06.960 --> 0:17:13.080 Hitler's Willing Executioners. Yeah, but um, yeah, it's um, there's 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:18.320 a lot that's problematic about that. Make a long story 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.959 short for people who don't want to read it. Uh. 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:25.120 He hits the Nazis with their own race sides. Yeah, 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.240 which you don't need to do. You do need to do. 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:34.120 The only thing that could stop a bad guy with 0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:40.040 race science is a good guy with race science. And 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.440 not to mention like the Rwanda genocide umps to mind immediately. 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:46.399 With some of the new scholarships, we'll be talking about 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:48.080 this quite a bit. But yeah, I mean this is 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.280 actually literally what we're leading into. Um. But yeah, I 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:53.360 mean it's it's worth noting that, like, yeah, the king 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:57.359 uh incentivizes people who inform on hidden Romans and he 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:02.040 promises slaves freedom. He again, the genocide occurs there. There 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:03.680 is an aspect of it as people have been pisted 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:05.960 Romans in this region for a long time. But they 0:18:06.000 --> 0:18:09.160 have incentives, right, They don't just suddenly get let off 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.800 the leash and do a genocide because they're angry at Romans. 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.919 There's it's worth it. The balance sheet makes it worth it, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.560 you know. Um. And this is an important truth about 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.600 why people do do genocides because it pays. Um. Racism 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:25.320 and nationalism are always major causes, sided along with kind 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.160 of vague and constantly frustrating claims of brainwashing by propaganda. 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:31.720 But as we'll cover, focusing on those things leads to 0:18:31.720 --> 0:18:35.440 a really myopic view about why mass killings occur. Our 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:38.520 earliest two genocides. We have no context about it, right, 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.880 we have no We have no idea why the omnia, 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.840 how the omnia justified like what they did, or how 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.040 the people who killed that the people in Nata ruck 0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.520 justified what they did. But it seems safe to conclude 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.919 that the folks carrying out the violence and uh their civilians, 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.720 the civilians back home, whatever that was, probably saw there 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:59.080 being some sort of a resource gain in killing those people. 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:04.320 That is very likely. Um. Popular scholarship of the Holocaust 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:06.920 tends to focus on the Yellow stars and arson attacks 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.040 on synagogues, and of course the camps, and obviously all 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.880 of that's very important, but many Americans have never even 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.800 heard of arianization. And in order to explain what that is, 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:20.280 I'm going to quote from the Holocaust Encyclopedia. Under voluntary arianization, 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:23.280 the Nazi German state encouraged Jewish businessmen, who were already 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.720 facing economic and social discrimination, to sell their businesses in 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:30.000 Germany at radically reduced prices. In early nineteen thirty three, 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.040 there were about one hundred thousand Jewish owned businesses in Germany. 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.040 About half of those were small retail stores dealing mostly 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:39.040 in clothing or footwear. The rest were factories or workshops 0:19:39.040 --> 0:19:42.000 of varying sizes, or professional offices for lawyers, physicians, and 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.320 other independent professionals. By nineteen thirty eight, the combination of 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.840 Nazi terror propaganda, boycott and legislation was so effective that 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:51.320 some two thirds of these Jewish owned enterprises were out 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.639 of business or sold to non Jews. Jewish owners, often 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:57.360 desperate to immigrate or to sell a failing business, accepted 0:19:57.400 --> 0:19:59.560 a selling price that was only twenty or thirty percent 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:02.720 of the actual value of each business. And I think 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.600 it's important to highlight this because you can draw a 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.879 real direct line between what Mathradates is doing what the 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:12.480 Nazis are doing here, right, Oh, yeah, absolutely, especially yeah, 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.680 especially when arianization became forced, which I mean, of course 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:19.640 you could argue that it already is forced, but when 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.280 it when it becomes you know, there they go from 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:24.720 voluntary to force, and the Nazis sense of the word 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.280 when they start deportations all their property outside of like 0:20:29.280 --> 0:20:32.040 precious metals and things, which end up vanishing into Swiss 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:36.040 bank accounts and are you still there to this day 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:42.840 they get auctioned off at drastically reduced prices to German civilians. Yes, um, 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:45.719 and yeah it's um. Obviously, like one of the things 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.199 to notice that what Mathradity does is faster, because like 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:53.199 it's years between arianization and the actual physical elimination of 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.920 Jewish human beings. In Europe on a mass scale. Um, 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.280 there's a good Again, this is not something that gets 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.840 talked about, especially in our popular retellings of the Holocaust. 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.520 It tends to get glossed over. There's one very good 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.960 movie that is like focused on arianization, although it's arianization 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:10.520 on the Eastern Front during the invasion of Russia by 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.320 the Nazis. It's called The Shop on Main Street. Uh. 0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:16.159 It one of foreign oscars made in the USSR in 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:19.479 like the sixties, um, and it is all about a 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.840 local dude named Tono who's like just like a Russian 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:26.280 dude who's like brother collaborates. I think it's his brother 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:29.240