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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and for the last two years,

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Speaker 1: behind the Bastards listeners have funded the Portland Diaper Bank,

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Speaker 1: which provides diapers for low income families. Uh. Last year

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Speaker 1: y'all raised more than twenty one thousand dollars, which was

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Speaker 1: able to purchase one point one million diapers for children

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Speaker 1: and families in need in one um. And this year

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Speaker 1: we're trying to get dollars raised for the Portland Diaper Bank,

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Speaker 1: which is going to allow us to help even more kids.

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Speaker 1: So UM, if you want to help, you can go

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Speaker 1: to bTB fundraiser for pd X Diaper Bank at go

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Speaker 1: fund me. Just type and go fund me b TB

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Speaker 1: Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank. Again, that's go fund Me

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Speaker 1: bTB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank, or find the link

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Speaker 1: in the show notes. Thank you all. Oh what's shitting

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Speaker 1: Orange my Joe? That's hell yeah, just for for for us,

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Speaker 1: for nobody else a time. How you doing, Joe for

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Speaker 1: part two of our genocide Spectacular? I'm good. UM, you

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Speaker 1: know I I often um and like my people that

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Speaker 1: listen to my show often joke that I surprise my

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Speaker 1: guests with the genocide. Uh. And this time it gets

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Speaker 1: to happen to me and it's it's quite nice. You know.

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Speaker 1: I did almost open this episode with what's eliminating ethnic groups?

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Speaker 1: My every people in the history of the human race,

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Speaker 1: But that wouldn't I just didn't want to see Sophie's

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Speaker 1: disappointed face one more time. I can feel her shaking

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Speaker 1: her head. No, across the internet, she always is somewhere. Probert,

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Speaker 1: you could never disappoint me. I often have. So Part two,

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Speaker 1: everybody's good to go. This is behind the bastards, by

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Speaker 1: the way, you're Joka Sabian, co hosted the Lions Led

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Speaker 1: by Donkeys podcast, asked, let's get back to some genocide,

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Speaker 1: so as I'm sure everyone listening to this show is

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Speaker 1: aware of. The United States is currently in a bit

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Speaker 1: of a moral panic over the fact that transgender people exist. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The groomer discourse, which has arisen on the right wing

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Speaker 1: um in which trans and now increasingly all queer people

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Speaker 1: are accused of being child molesters. Are one of the

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Speaker 1: child molesters because they like write books that tell kids

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Speaker 1: that people who aren't aren't this gender exist. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: the folks have been accusing this. Are folks like on

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Speaker 1: the left and queer people have been pointing out that

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Speaker 1: this is eliminationist rhetoric. Right this is potentially the kind

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Speaker 1: of rhetoric that can lead to a genocide. Um. And

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Speaker 1: the basic fear is that right wing thought leaders are

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Speaker 1: trying to convince their followers that transgender people are pedophilic

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Speaker 1: monsters because you can do anything to pedophiles, right, Like

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Speaker 1: it is exactly so if you can like lump a

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Speaker 1: group of people and is being that it doesn't matter

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Speaker 1: what you do to them. Um. Now, I've seen a

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Speaker 1: number of number of posts in this line on on

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Speaker 1: the int our webs that have brought Dr Gregory Stanton's

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Speaker 1: ten stages of genocide, which he laid out in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eight six and were revamped in UM. Step one is

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Speaker 1: classification e g. Splitting society into us in them rather

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Speaker 1: than using mixed categories. This is not always done intentionally.

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Speaker 1: This often just kind of happens, but it can feed

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Speaker 1: and do what later becomes a genocide. Next is symbolization,

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Speaker 1: which gives names or symbols to the classification. The most

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Speaker 1: obvious example of this from history would be the yellow

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Speaker 1: star that Jewish people were forced to wear a Nazi

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Speaker 1: Germany or indeed the purple triangle that that that homosexual

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Speaker 1: people were made to wear. Um. Next comes discrimination on

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Speaker 1: a legal basis, and then to humanization, which is comparison

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Speaker 1: of members of the target group to insects or vermin um.

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Speaker 1: This is also this is not in his list, but

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Speaker 1: plague bacillus is a really common one, particularly by the Nazis. Um.

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Speaker 1: I think that had something to do with the fact

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Speaker 1: that there had been a plague not that long before

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Speaker 1: the rise of the Nazis, famously in Rwanda. Yes, cockroaches. Uh.

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Speaker 1: We will chat about a little bit more later. Um.

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Speaker 1: And then there's organization, which is the forming of militias

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Speaker 1: and other not crucially nonstate groups geared towards the elimination

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Speaker 1: of targeted people. Polarization is number six, in which extremists

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Speaker 1: drive groups apart and broadcast propaganda in the mass media

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Speaker 1: to indoctrinate people with hate. Now, most of the time

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Speaker 1: when I see people bringing up stantons tend stages of

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Speaker 1: genocide to talk about how that's where the rights trying

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Speaker 1: to push people. Uh, they will least the United States

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Speaker 1: at either step four or step six. And you can

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Speaker 1: certainly make a strong case for either. UM. But while

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Speaker 1: doctor Stanton scale has has its uses, I'm not like

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Speaker 1: shipping on it or anything. I think the way in

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Speaker 1: which people are interpreting it leads to some inaccurate beliefs

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Speaker 1: about how genocide tends to proceed um. And it overall

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Speaker 1: pushes people towards a more mechanistic and centralized view of

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Speaker 1: how genocides occur. UM. And while this discan't this does

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Speaker 1: describe some historic genocides well, because he's looking back at

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Speaker 1: genocides and trying to describe them in stages, I don't

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Speaker 1: know that it's super used in predicting them um. Which right, UM,

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Speaker 1: I would argue that it's not UM simply, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not, of course, I'm not hating in its research,

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Speaker 1: as research is great. It's just um, I think it

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Speaker 1: takes a lot of agency from the perpetrators of genocides themselves. UM.

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Speaker 1: I think it's very good. UM. And I mean even

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Speaker 1: Strauss sometimes does this as well. It's very good to

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Speaker 1: everyone does when you're doing this kind of history right

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Speaker 1: to right stint. Yeah, it's it's something. It's very very

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Speaker 1: good to understand the organization of the radical core that

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Speaker 1: makes all genocides possible, but isn't inevitable radical cores conform

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Speaker 1: and there can still not be a genocide, yes, um

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Speaker 1: And I also like the kind of the fact that

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Speaker 1: we're sort of critiquing this doesn't mean we're not saying, like,

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Speaker 1: for example, trans people should not be concerned about the

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Speaker 1: rhetoric coming up the right as elimination is not saying

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Speaker 1: that at all. Just I think focusing on the stages

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Speaker 1: in the way that people do kind of leads people

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Speaker 1: to inaccurate that expectations about how things proceed and have

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Speaker 1: proceeded historically. And that's what we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 1: Um So in order to get into that, let's start

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Speaker 1: with another example from ancient history. This is one that

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Speaker 1: you brought up to me, Joe, when I mentioned that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do this episode. The Asian Vespers of

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Speaker 1: eight eight b C. The Asiatic vespers. Romans got the

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Speaker 1: hit with the reverse card. Yes, exactly, Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: the uno reverse of the of the genocide that they

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Speaker 1: did in Carthage. Um. So, starting in like ninety one

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Speaker 1: b C, Romans had what they called the social War,

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Speaker 1: which was social because the people they lived next to

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Speaker 1: Italians were not Roman citizens, but they had to submit

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Speaker 1: to some Roman policies. They couldn't vote, they weren't like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, as a general rule, when people have

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Speaker 1: to submit to policies by a government but have no

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Speaker 1: say in that government, they can get unhappy with that.

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Speaker 1: This is not a thing Americans would be familiar with, right,

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Speaker 1: nothing like that has ever happened here. Um, That never

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Speaker 1: never occurred in this part of the world. So eventually

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Speaker 1: the Italians go to war with the Romans. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to get into detail about that, but they call

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Speaker 1: it the social War, which is funny because it is

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Speaker 1: unbelievably brutal. And this is also this is a pattern

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Speaker 1: in Roman history where like a group of people who

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Speaker 1: are close to the imperial corps will have an uprising

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Speaker 1: because their rights are being denied, and they will make

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Speaker 1: demands which will be denied, and then they'll fight a war.

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Speaker 1: The Romans will crush them brutally and then grant most

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Speaker 1: of the demands later. That's what happens here because like,

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Speaker 1: the Italians get everything they want after the Romans wipe

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Speaker 1: out like a generation of them. Yeah, there's few of

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Speaker 1: your rights to so exactly for us, um, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Rome is at war with Italy uh in this period.

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Speaker 1: And while this is all going down, um there's a

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Speaker 1: you know this place called Pontus, which is in the

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Speaker 1: modern day Black Sea region of Turkey. Um and the

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Speaker 1: guy who runs it is a king named mithradit s

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Speaker 1: mythri Dates uh whatever you want to call him, the

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Speaker 1: six and he starts like rubbing his hands together like

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Speaker 1: that guy in that meme, you know, the me the

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Speaker 1: guy rubbing his hands together. It wasn't a birdman's doing this,

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Speaker 1: That's exactly mithraddyes is like that's what he's doing, looking

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Speaker 1: at Rome fighting Italy, like oh yeah, I'm gonna get

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Speaker 1: some ship. So famously, uh Mithradates uh was also related

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Speaker 1: and again this is something that goes back through histories.

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Speaker 1: It's related into the neighboring kingdom of Armenia and the

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Speaker 1: partness as well they share to um so Rome and

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Speaker 1: the people's and like that whole region of the world,

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Speaker 1: you know, the code which generally like they'll call these

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Speaker 1: guys like uh, Persians a lot of the time, like

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Speaker 1: it's all like it's this, you know, it's Asia, right,

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Speaker 1: Like that's what the to the ROMs. This is just

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Speaker 1: Asia um and they fought a while, and they would

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Speaker 1: fight many more wars in the future. Um. So old

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Speaker 1: Mithraddys decides that, like, while the Republic's got his back turned,

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Speaker 1: he's going to annex to neighboring kingdoms that have like

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Speaker 1: tight relationships with Rome, primarily like trading based. So because

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Speaker 1: Rome has so much economic interest in the area. They

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Speaker 1: have a Roman commission to Asia. Um and the guy

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Speaker 1: who's running it, basically the guy who's running the Roman

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Speaker 1: Commission to Asia is like, hey, methradityas you can't annex

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Speaker 1: these places. You have to give them back to their kings.

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Speaker 1: You have to restore their sovereignty. And the head of

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Speaker 1: the Roman commission doesn't do this because he's a cool dude,

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Speaker 1: but because he's been bribed, right, like these guys paid

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Speaker 1: him to do it. Um. Because you know, stuff can't

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Speaker 1: come back, Like it's not like Rome is centralized for

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Speaker 1: the day. But it's not like he can radio back

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Speaker 1: home and be like what do you want me to do?

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Speaker 1: Like that takes like six months to get anything back, right. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: the two countries that Methraddys had annexed, Cappadocia and Bithnia

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Speaker 1: get freed because Methradityas doesn't really want a straight up

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Speaker 1: fight with the Romans at this date. But they now

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Speaker 1: owe the chief Roman dude in the area a lot

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Speaker 1: of money because they promised to pay him for this.

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Speaker 1: Now this guy, this dude who like makes Mathradityas leave

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Speaker 1: and gets bribed, is Mannius Aquillus Aquilius. We don't actually

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Speaker 1: know how any of these names were pronounced, because here's

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Speaker 1: the fun thing. As a guy who took three years

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Speaker 1: of Latin, nobody in knows how ancient Latin was pronounced.

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Speaker 1: We know how people have said like ecclesiastic Latin, but

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Speaker 1: it is different, like nobody actually understands exactly how Romans

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Speaker 1: would have said everything. Um So Mannius Aquilius, head of

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Speaker 1: the Roman delegation, tells the king of I think Cappadocia

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Speaker 1: and Nikomedes that a good way to get money that

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Speaker 1: he owes Mannius might be by invading Pontus and taking

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Speaker 1: their stuff. Now, the fact that they had just been

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Speaker 1: annexed by Pontas, if you're a smart person, you may

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Speaker 1: be like, well, maybe these guys can't beat Pontus in

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Speaker 1: a war. If this just happened right, like, maybe their

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Speaker 1: invasion won't go well, maybe this is a stupid idea.

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Speaker 1: You might think Mannius Aquillis would have would think that,

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Speaker 1: but he does not. So Nikamedes tries to invade Pontus,

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Speaker 1: and they just ta get curb stomped by mithradityas um

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Speaker 1: just just absolutely pounded. So next, I'm gonna quote from

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Speaker 1: a write up for the University of Chicago's Encyclopedia Romana

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Speaker 1: quote mathread. Methraditys retook Cappadocia in Bitthania, defeating Ni comedies

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Speaker 1: at the river Amnius, fighting against chariots armed with sides

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Speaker 1: on the wheels. The army was terrified at seeing men

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Speaker 1: cutting halves and still breathing or mingled in fragments or

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Speaker 1: hanging on the sides, Overcome rather by the hideousness of

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Speaker 1: the spectacle, but then by loss of the fight. Fear

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Speaker 1: disordered their ranks. Methradity Is then swept into fr Gia

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Speaker 1: and the Roman province of Asia. Aquilius, who so ill

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Speaker 1: advisedly had precipitated the war without ratification from the Senate,

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Speaker 1: fled the mainland, but was given up by the citizens

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Speaker 1: of Madeleine. Ridiculed and paraded on an ass. He eventually

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Speaker 1: was executed, relates Appian when Methradates poured golden molten gold

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Speaker 1: down his throat, thus rebuking the Romans for their bribe taking.

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Speaker 1: And this is a cool and good way of executing

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Speaker 1: like powerful rich people. That happens a bunch of times

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Speaker 1: to Romans in it Like this is not the last

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Speaker 1: time a Roman will be force fed molten gold in

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Speaker 1: this part of the world. It's pretty cool. It's objective,

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Speaker 1: like Methradity is. I'm not calling him a great guy,

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Speaker 1: but like, it's pretty cool to do this to guys

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Speaker 1: like that. I want to say, this happens as someone Methradity.

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Speaker 1: I mean, um, it happens to um. Happen to these

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Speaker 1: um uh relatives later on, but I can't remember. Cool.

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Speaker 1: That's good. You know it famously happens, so you know

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Speaker 1: later during the time of like Caesar, and you've got

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Speaker 1: like Caesar, Pompey and crasses Um and Crosses is like

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Speaker 1: the richest guy in the world at the time. Some

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Speaker 1: people will argue he's the richest dude there ever was.

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Speaker 1: He made like a big chunk of his fortune by

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Speaker 1: when there would be fires in Rome, he owned a

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Speaker 1: fire department and would go to people and he would

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Speaker 1: be like, you want me to save your house, you

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Speaker 1: gotta like give me your house, like sell me your

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Speaker 1: house and then you'll be able to get your ship

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Speaker 1: out at least. And like that's so big asshole. He

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Speaker 1: like goes to war in kind of this vague region

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Speaker 1: of the world against like Parthia because he's a dick

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Speaker 1: uh and his army gets its ass. Again. This is

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Speaker 1: one of those times where like the Romans lose like

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Speaker 1: a whole generation of young men. Um. And yeah, all

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Speaker 1: according to legend, he gets killed by having gold poured

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Speaker 1: down his throat to the richest man in history, which

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Speaker 1: is neat army through the mountains of Parthia and getting wrecked.

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Speaker 1: It was like kind of an origin story for a

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Speaker 1: lot of important people in Roman Mark. Antony did that too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like getting chicken pox for Roman military leaders. She's

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Speaker 1: just gotta go get your ass wrecked in Asia. Um.

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Speaker 1: So again, obviously, so far this is broadly speaking morally

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Speaker 1: unproblematic um within the context of ancient history. Um. But

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Speaker 1: if you know your Roman history, you know that, like

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Speaker 1: and maybe if this hadn't happened, if he'd gotten back

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Speaker 1: to Rome, there's a decent chance they would have like

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Speaker 1: executed Marcus, like thrown him off the Tarpeian rock or

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Speaker 1: something for for fucking around. Um they did that sometimes.

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Speaker 1: But now a Roman elected leader has been executed by

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Speaker 1: a foreign king, and Rome does not take kindly to

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Speaker 1: that ship. Um. So things start churning up for a war,

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Speaker 1: and Methreadityase or mithrid Dates whatever decides his first step

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Speaker 1: should be to cleanse his new territory of all Roman citizens.

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Speaker 1: And this is where things get genociety. Quote A eight

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Speaker 1: b c. And a measure of the hatred felt for

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Speaker 1: the Romans in Asia. Methredites wrote secretly to all his

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Speaker 1: sat traps and city governors that on the thirtieth day

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Speaker 1: thereafter they should set up on all Romans and Italians

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Speaker 1: in their towns, and upon their wives and children and

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Speaker 1: their freedmen of Italian birth, kill them and throw their

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Speaker 1: bodies out unburied, and share their goodsmith with King Mithraddys.

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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands were massacred. Valarious Maximus records eighty thousand deaths,

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Speaker 1: Plutarch A hundred and fifty thousand, and what has been

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Speaker 1: called the Asian or Ephesian vespers um. So yeah, this

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Speaker 1: this is a definitely genocide. Um, pretty pretty clear example

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Speaker 1: of a genocide, and one that happens very rapidly. It

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Speaker 1: might be most common, it might be most reasonable to

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Speaker 1: dry compare it to Rwanda, where there were there were

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Speaker 1: pre existing tensions because the Romans had kind of come

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Speaker 1: into this area with all the money. They were backed

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Speaker 1: by this state that had bossed people around. They were

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Speaker 1: like landlords and they were bankers, and they were like

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Speaker 1: seen as kind of economically oppressing people in the regions,

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Speaker 1: seen as arrogant, seen as like backed by this outside

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Speaker 1: state that was unfairly exerting power in the area. And

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Speaker 1: so people had been pissed for a while. And when

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Speaker 1: Methredys takes over and says like, hey, it's time to

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Speaker 1: get rid of these motherfucker's, there's a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: who are like willing to do it because of these

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Speaker 1: pre existing ethnic tensions. Um. Yeah, obviously with the main

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Speaker 1: difference of these ethnic tensions or actually different ethnicities and

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Speaker 1: not invented, yes, and not invented because these look like

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Speaker 1: dudes from Italy showing up in fucking Turkey, um, which

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Speaker 1: is actually again like with Garthiage, not all that far um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so um this upsets Rome. The whole story

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Speaker 1: ends after two more wars with Roman victory and the

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Speaker 1: death of Methred Eyes and the rise of a guy

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Speaker 1: named Sola who sucks ass. But that's a story for

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Speaker 1: another day. Um. Definitely an active historical gin side. It

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Speaker 1: does not. However, again, if we're talking about Dr Stanton scale,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't correspond directly to that. Now, there is an

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Speaker 1: us versus them component to the massacre right that exists

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Speaker 1: well prior to Methreadity is giving the order right, the

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Speaker 1: fact that there are these divisions that Romans are kind

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Speaker 1: of seen as other. But there's no build up to this. Really,

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Speaker 1: there's no propaganda arm to to humanize them. There's no

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Speaker 1: gradual stage of separating Romans from other people in their community. Um.

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Speaker 1: He issues secret orders that local officials and their levies fulfill. Um,

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Speaker 1: and as an incentive, he divides the property of the

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Speaker 1: dead Romans between himself and the inhabitants of the city

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Speaker 1: that they're killed in. There. Yes, that's why, right, And

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Speaker 1: this is this is the thing I think scholars obviously,

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Speaker 1: because we're quoting a bunch of scholars talk about this

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Speaker 1: a lot, but is a general rule when people popularly

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Speaker 1: discussed genocide, they almost never talked about how fucking much

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Speaker 1: of it is about money. Yeah. Uh, it's starting to

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Speaker 1: become more accepted now. Um. Like, like we talked about

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Speaker 1: I think in the very beginning of the last episode,

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Speaker 1: is that people really wanted to believe that every perpetrator

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Speaker 1: of a genocide is a dead eyed psycho who's a

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Speaker 1: dead set racial baganda. Yeah. I mean that's pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: solidly thrown out the window by Christopher Brownings were um

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Speaker 1: and ordinary men, which then spawned one of the worst

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Speaker 1: books on the Holocaust I think I've ever read, called

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Speaker 1: Hitler's Willing Executioners. Yeah, but um, yeah, it's um, there's

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Speaker 1: a lot that's problematic about that. Make a long story

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Speaker 1: short for people who don't want to read it. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He hits the Nazis with their own race sides. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which you don't need to do. You do need to do.

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Speaker 1: The only thing that could stop a bad guy with

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Speaker 1: race science is a good guy with race science. And

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Speaker 1: not to mention like the Rwanda genocide umps to mind immediately.

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Speaker 1: With some of the new scholarships, we'll be talking about

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Speaker 1: this quite a bit. But yeah, I mean this is

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Speaker 1: actually literally what we're leading into. Um. But yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean it's it's worth noting that, like, yeah, the king

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Speaker 1: uh incentivizes people who inform on hidden Romans and he

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Speaker 1: promises slaves freedom. He again, the genocide occurs there. There

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Speaker 1: is an aspect of it as people have been pisted

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Speaker 1: Romans in this region for a long time. But they

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Speaker 1: have incentives, right, They don't just suddenly get let off

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Speaker 1: the leash and do a genocide because they're angry at Romans.

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Speaker 1: There's it's worth it. The balance sheet makes it worth it,

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Speaker 1: you know. Um. And this is an important truth about

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Speaker 1: why people do do genocides because it pays. Um. Racism

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Speaker 1: and nationalism are always major causes, sided along with kind

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Speaker 1: of vague and constantly frustrating claims of brainwashing by propaganda.

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Speaker 1: But as we'll cover, focusing on those things leads to

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Speaker 1: a really myopic view about why mass killings occur. Our

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Speaker 1: earliest two genocides. We have no context about it, right,

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Speaker 1: we have no We have no idea why the omnia,

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Speaker 1: how the omnia justified like what they did, or how

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Speaker 1: the people who killed that the people in Nata ruck

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Speaker 1: justified what they did. But it seems safe to conclude

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Speaker 1: that the folks carrying out the violence and uh their civilians,

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Speaker 1: the civilians back home, whatever that was, probably saw there

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Speaker 1: being some sort of a resource gain in killing those people.

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Speaker 1: That is very likely. Um. Popular scholarship of the Holocaust

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Speaker 1: tends to focus on the Yellow stars and arson attacks

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Speaker 1: on synagogues, and of course the camps, and obviously all

359
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,880
Speaker 1: of that's very important, but many Americans have never even

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Speaker 1: heard of arianization. And in order to explain what that is,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from the Holocaust Encyclopedia. Under voluntary arianization,

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Speaker 1: the Nazi German state encouraged Jewish businessmen, who were already

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Speaker 1: facing economic and social discrimination, to sell their businesses in

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Speaker 1: Germany at radically reduced prices. In early nineteen thirty three,

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Speaker 1: there were about one hundred thousand Jewish owned businesses in Germany.

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Speaker 1: About half of those were small retail stores dealing mostly

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Speaker 1: in clothing or footwear. The rest were factories or workshops

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Speaker 1: of varying sizes, or professional offices for lawyers, physicians, and

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Speaker 1: other independent professionals. By nineteen thirty eight, the combination of

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Speaker 1: Nazi terror propaganda, boycott and legislation was so effective that

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Speaker 1: some two thirds of these Jewish owned enterprises were out

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Speaker 1: of business or sold to non Jews. Jewish owners, often

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Speaker 1: desperate to immigrate or to sell a failing business, accepted

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Speaker 1: a selling price that was only twenty or thirty percent

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Speaker 1: of the actual value of each business. And I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to highlight this because you can draw a

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Speaker 1: real direct line between what Mathradates is doing what the

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Speaker 1: Nazis are doing here, right, Oh, yeah, absolutely, especially yeah,

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Speaker 1: especially when arianization became forced, which I mean, of course

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Speaker 1: you could argue that it already is forced, but when

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Speaker 1: it when it becomes you know, there they go from

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Speaker 1: voluntary to force, and the Nazis sense of the word

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Speaker 1: when they start deportations all their property outside of like

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Speaker 1: precious metals and things, which end up vanishing into Swiss

385
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: bank accounts and are you still there to this day

386
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 1: they get auctioned off at drastically reduced prices to German civilians. Yes, um,

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00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,719
Speaker 1: and yeah it's um. Obviously, like one of the things

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00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:48,199
Speaker 1: to notice that what Mathradity does is faster, because like

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Speaker 1: it's years between arianization and the actual physical elimination of

390
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Speaker 1: Jewish human beings. In Europe on a mass scale. Um,

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00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: there's a good Again, this is not something that gets

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Speaker 1: talked about, especially in our popular retellings of the Holocaust.

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00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: It tends to get glossed over. There's one very good

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00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 1: movie that is like focused on arianization, although it's arianization

395
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Speaker 1: on the Eastern Front during the invasion of Russia by

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Speaker 1: the Nazis. It's called The Shop on Main Street. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It one of foreign oscars made in the USSR in

398
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 1: like the sixties, um, and it is all about a

399
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Speaker 1: local dude named Tono who's like just like a Russian

400
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,280
Speaker 1: dude who's like brother collaborates. I think it's his brother

401
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 1: collaborates with the Nazis, and because his brother is working

402
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 1: with them, this like kind of he's the town drunk

403
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 1: basically gets given a Jewish woman's business and he like

404
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 1: tries to hide her and stuff. It's it's a very

405
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 1: bleak movie, um, but it's a good movie about that

406
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 1: aspect of the genocide that I don't think I've ever

407
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,000
Speaker 1: seen anything else tie into it maybe. And one of

408
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: the things that's really interesting about The Shop on Main

409
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,640
Speaker 1: Street I recommend watching it is that this is again

410
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 1: filmed in the US. Are in like the sixties, So

411
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Speaker 1: all of the people acting in the movie had lived

412
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Speaker 1: through this, Like the actors in this movie had either

413
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 1: participated in or watched their neighbors give up their Jews

414
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,960
Speaker 1: when they were kids, like during the Nazi advance. So

415
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 1: it's they're not so much acting as like remembering and it's. Um,

416
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: it is a potent film, Like you should watch The

417
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,719
Speaker 1: Shop on Main Street. It's a very good movie. Just

418
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 1: like have something like the new Nicholas Cage movie to

419
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 1: put on afterwards that will be less sad um because

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Speaker 1: holy sh it isn't bleak World War two movie about Yeah,

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00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: I can't believe it's depressing anyway, I'm gonna go have

422
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 1: a nice palate Come and See. Yeah, I would say

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Speaker 1: it's on the level of Come and See in terms

424
00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,119
Speaker 1: of bleakness, not in terms of like how intense the

425
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 1: imagery of Come and See is, which is like nothing else. Um. Yeah,

426
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 1: Russian movies about the World War Two. Uh yeah, it's

427
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 1: it's interesting because like when you think about the fact

428
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,679
Speaker 1: that um Mathraditis and the Nazis had the same basic idea,

429
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 1: but he immediately proceeded to genocide and it took them years.

430
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:07,359
Speaker 1: You might conclude. One of the things you might conclude

431
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 1: from this is that a benefit from modern civilization, and

432
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: that is that in order to get a population to

433
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 1: buy into a genocide, you have to separate the killing

434
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 1: from the financial gain by a couple of years, um. Everybody.

435
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,800
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that does speak well of civilization, Like,

436
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,119
Speaker 1: I know, you can try and you can interpret that

437
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 1: however you would like. If that's what you choose to

438
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: take out of this lesson, I would argue that it

439
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,719
Speaker 1: does not, especially because it seems like the most genocide

440
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: is not all, but most in the modern era, Like

441
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 1: the vast majority of work that has done is done

442
00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: to make it palatable, um, not only to lay people

443
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: in civilization, but also to the perpetrators. Yeah. And it's

444
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: because this might shuck some people. Ideology isn't all that

445
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: important for people doing the killing. It's important for people

446
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: doing the organizing. Yeah, and that's what we're we're this

447
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: is I mean, this is all what we're talking thinking about.

448
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: But first, you know, who doesn't organize people to participate

449
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: in an ethnic cleansing in order to make financial benefits

450
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:12,400
Speaker 1: for a specific class of people. We actually don't know that. Well, Yeah, yeah, yeah,

451
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 1: because it could be and they are certain have. Um,

452
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: the Ford Motor Company when abducts children for their child

453
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 1: hunting island off the coast of Indonesia, they abduct children

454
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: from all socioeconomic classes, all major religious and racial groups,

455
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: all kinds of kids on the child hunting island off

456
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,480
Speaker 1: the coast of Indonesia. That's the guarantee, the the guarantee

457
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: of of equality. Freely sourced children. Yeah, are kidnapping gangs,

458
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 1: do not see race. Ah, we're back. So we've discussed

459
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: a shortcoming I think of Dr Stanton scale, and again

460
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 1: we're not trying to show them like his research or anything.

461
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,359
Speaker 1: This is primarily even not really an issue with this scale,

462
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: but with like the way it is popularly interpreted, like

463
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 1: it's a like genocide is a thermometer, right um, gonn

464
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 1: to dial up the genocide? Yeah, yeah, temperature. Um, that's

465
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,920
Speaker 1: not quite how it works. And I'd like to present

466
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: folks with another rubric that they might find more useful

467
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: for determining how people and specifically individual people, this does,

468
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: you know, kind of work on communities get to tip

469
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 1: to the point where they are willing to participate in genocide. Right, Um,

470
00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: This is another way of looking at it that I

471
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,360
Speaker 1: find more useful. We can talk about like the shortcomings

472
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: of this way as well, if um and I'm sure

473
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: we will. Genocide historian Irvin Staub, who, by the way,

474
00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: was only alive to do his research because Raoul Wallenberg

475
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: saved his life. He's one of the he's one of

476
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: the kids that Wallenberg hid in like a house during

477
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: the genocide in Hungary. Um Staub was a pioneer in understanding,

478
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: specifically the temporal procession of motivations in individuals who consent

479
00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: to take part in genocide. That was like a thing

480
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: he was really interested in, is what is happening in

481
00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: the head? Like are the different things that have to

482
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 1: happen for someone to be like willing to do this?

483
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: You know um up until his and he's obviously he's

484
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: he's very much working off of the work that Limcoln pioneer.

485
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: He quotes Limpton Limpcoln constantly in his book. You know,

486
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: none of these people are like doing anything entirely like

487
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: this is scholarship, right, everybody's like participating and building and understanding. UM.

488
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: Up until his book was published in nineteen eighty nine,

489
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,680
Speaker 1: there was fairly little organized scholarship concerned with how individuals

490
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: changed over time to support genocide. Staub focused on what

491
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: he called a continuum of destruction, which other scholars have

492
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 1: empirically documented in studies of Rwanda, Bosnia, and Cambodia. The

493
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: findings of all of this research on motivation were aptly

494
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 1: described by one of the scholars who followed Staub, Scott Strauss,

495
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 1: who wrote a Rwanda quote. Rwandans killed for multiple reasons.

496
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: Others joined in the attacks for one reason, but then

497
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,400
Speaker 1: continued for other reasons. Their motivations changed over time. Um Now.

498
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: I found a good article published in twenty by Jan

499
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 1: Reinerman and Smothey Williams in the incredibly named International Journal

500
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: of Violence. I think it's actually called Violence and International Journal,

501
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: but either way, it's a pretty pretty cool title for

502
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:13,359
Speaker 1: a thing. Um now. Based on the research of guys

503
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 1: like stalbin Strass going all the way back to Limpkeoln,

504
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: they propose a sort of hierarchy of needs in list

505
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 1: ways in which different motivations can influence those needs to

506
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 1: make people capable of like directly carrying out mass murder quote.

507
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: To understand why individuals engage in violent action, we need

508
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: to understand both their motivations and inhibitions, both of which

509
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: stem from certain needs, inhibitions conceptually being motivations for not

510
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 1: engaging in violent action. As such, we can identify individual

511
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 1: hierarchies of needs, and only when the most salient one

512
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: is a motivation for action will an individual participate. Now

513
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 1: to explain why they present a chart listing the needs

514
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: of an individual and specific moment, which can generally be

515
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: categorized as security, moral integrity, social belonging, and a desire

516
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: for better life conditions. So, for security, if persons to

517
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: I are to keep themselves safe, might lead them to

518
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: participate in a genocide to avoid coercion, violence, or the

519
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 1: threat of violence from the state or another group. A

520
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: person's moral integrity might keep them from killing if they

521
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: believe that murdering people is always wrong. A person's need

522
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 1: for social belonging might convince them to kill if doing

523
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 1: so will keep them in good with the group, and likewise,

524
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: they might not be willing to kill if that will

525
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: ostracize them from the from the people around them, and

526
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: they need to improve their own Individual circumstances might of

527
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: course lead a person to support genocide for economic gain.

528
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: Quote This can be illustrated through the actions of a

529
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: Rwandan Hutu who might have faced strong pressure from other

530
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: hohotoos to participate. As Strauss argues, this was the most

531
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: common motivation for people to participate in the killings and

532
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: rendered the need for security a most salient and the

533
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: hierarchy of needs and motivations at this time in a

534
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: similar vein, an example of coercion can be found in Cambodia,

535
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: where coercion caused a diffuse feeling of anxiety in which

536
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 1: everyone feared becoming a victim themselves, making fear endemic. Furthermore,

537
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: coercion in this case provoked strict obedient to the orders

538
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: of their superiors for the fear of life threatening consequences.

539
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 1: Some former cadres of the Khmer Rouge claimed that if

540
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: people did not kill and follow the rules, they would

541
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: be killed, or stated they were fearful for their security.

542
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: A statement of a former camer Rouge illustrated this as follows,

543
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: But it was the order from higher and if they

544
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: did not do it, they were also killed. Therefore, whether

545
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: they wanted to do it or not, they had to

546
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: do it. They just followed the order. Now, yeah, yeah,

547
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 1: that that tracks, especially m Rwanda. I mean, the vast

548
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 1: majority of the genocide wasn't committed by arms of the state,

549
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: though the Rwandan military did help. Most of us done

550
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: by Hutu power militias in the inter homeway, and uh

551
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: like a huge number of the victims of that genocide

552
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: are also moderate Hutus who refused the tip part. And yeah, people,

553
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: you can actually go on the Rwanda Genocide Museum's website

554
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: and and watch a ton of perpetrator uh like interviews

555
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: and virtually all of them will point out that the

556
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: community was doing it. Um. I was worried that if

557
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: I didn't take part, I too would be killed. And

558
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 1: also I stole their stuff. It's like the three things. Yeah,

559
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: and that I think that's what's so important, is that,

560
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: like it is all it's not just fear of coercion.

561
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: It's not just that someone is ordering them um. And

562
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: it's not just that they have an economic benefit. It

563
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: is a continuum of things that kind of you know,

564
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 1: and again you could get overly mechanistic with this in

565
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: views like flipping switches. It's not quite. It's just it's

566
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: the same way that like, you know, people in any

567
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: circumstance can do things they would not expect of themselves

568
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: because things change that like alter the calculus they're making

569
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 1: in the moment about like what is what is the

570
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,000
Speaker 1: thing to do? Um? And it's I think that's much

571
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: more useful than just being like, well, if you brainwash

572
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: certain people, you can get them to commit genocide. Um.

573
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: It's more like if if you can provide the proper

574
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: incentives in the proper away at the right time, people

575
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: can are willing to engage in horrific things that they

576
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 1: would consider impossible of themselves in a different situation. Right.

577
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the main reasons why the

578
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: Holocausts switch from being mass shootings to death camps, because

579
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: human beings cannot continuously do that forever. No, no, and

580
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: they will break they as they did. And we can

581
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: talk about like the rates of alcoholism among the SS

582
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: or like just like the fact that um uh, like

583
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: so many of those guys killed themselves, right, which you

584
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: shouldn't you shouldn't feel bad for them. But it's just

585
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: like there's a certain there's a certain subset of the

586
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: human population who could who could shoot, you know, unarmed

587
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 1: people all day long and not have any effect, but

588
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 1: it's not a lot of them, and it's not most

589
00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: of the people who do that kind of thing. Um.

590
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: So the need for social belonging is also a well

591
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: documented and powerful motivation for many participants in genocide. Obviously,

592
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: a lot of Germans why their neighbors be led away

593
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: and avoided speaking up. And this is an area where

594
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: like the popular view was often because like, well, if

595
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: they had said something, they would have gotten in trouble. Um.

596
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: And we just talked about how coercion is a factor,

597
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: especially in Rwanda, but it's also not as much of

598
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: a factor in a lot of genocides as you think,

599
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: for example, in Germany. Um. One thing that is worth

600
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 1: noting is that soldiers in Germany were not punished or

601
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 1: executed for refusing to participate in genocide. They were ostracized

602
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 1: by their fellows sometimes. I'm sure some dudes got like

603
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: beat up or whatever by their buddies, like if you're

604
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: talking about like individual coercion, but the state did not

605
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: execute German soldiers for refusing to kill Jewish people, of course,

606
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: now and or and um, ordinary men. Christopher Browning points

607
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: out before every mass killing, to include the largest mass

608
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: killing of beings, yeah, which the Russians are shelling or

609
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 1: we're shelling yes, yeaheah, the Holocaust Royal specifically good stuff

610
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: like the it's noted that I mean this is a

611
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 1: reserve police battalion. I believe reserve police telling a one

612
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: oh one or something. Um, yeah, we're like given explicit permission,

613
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: like you don't have to do this if you don't

614
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: want to, like you can request to transfer. Has had

615
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 1: an out. So again, it's not just any of these factors,

616
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: because social coercion can be totally absent in the way

617
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 1: that it's like in the way that we were describing earlier,

618
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: where it's a fear of your own physical security right

619
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: for not participating, that is not a necessary precursor of genocide.

620
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: It can be um and it's it's it's interesting here

621
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: because one of the things that is worth noting because

622
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to just be talking about why genocides happen.

623
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:33,959
Speaker 1: If you want to look at like how to prevent

624
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 1: them or to mitigate them. One of the most successful

625
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: things you can do is protest in the moment against it.

626
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: And this is a thing that was successful in Nazi

627
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: Germany against the Nazis um. On a number of occasions,

628
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: people who protested direct acts of deportation and killing did

629
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: not tend to be imprisoned or harmed by the state.

630
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: In fact, the state on a number of occasions backed off,

631
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: and stal writes it lengths about the power of bystanders

632
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: to influence, or, at least in specific limited instances, halt

633
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: and and and slow down the process of genocide. And

634
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 1: when talking about this, he points to a well documented

635
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: psychological phenomenon, the bystander effect. When a number of people

636
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: are present in an emergency, significant number, somebody gets hit

637
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: by a car or something, and there's a bunch of

638
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,160
Speaker 1: folks watching, responsibility is diffused, and each individual person on

639
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 1: scene is less likely to help, right, because they assume

640
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: someone else who knows better is going to get in there. Right.

641
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 1: We could talk about the cops stacked up at Vivaldi

642
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:33,360
Speaker 1: refusing to like. That may be a different thing, but like,

643
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure that was a factor in what was happening. Psychologically, UM,

644
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: the same thing that causes most people in a room

645
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 1: to ignore when like a dude slaps his girlfriend, UM

646
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,400
Speaker 1: is at play when agents of the state come to

647
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,240
Speaker 1: disappear people. Stout points out that even the Nazis backed

648
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: away repeatedly in the face of public resistance. Quote, they

649
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: did not persist, for example, when Bulgaria, where people protested

650
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: in the streets, refused to hand over its Jewish population,

651
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: or when within Germany, relatives and some institutions protested the

652
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:04,720
Speaker 1: killing of the mentally retarded, mentally ill, and others regarded

653
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: as genetically inferior um. Like there were cases in which

654
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,400
Speaker 1: and and there was a backlash after Christal Knock that

655
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: caused changes in Nazi policy. And this is against the

656
00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: Some of these scholars who are talking about it in

657
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 1: the in the way that we've just been discussing, will

658
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: say that what's happening here is that in that moment

659
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:25,799
Speaker 1: where like you're trying to round up people, and folks

660
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: show up to protest your human need for moral integrity

661
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: can kind of switch to make you incapable temporarily of

662
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 1: at least like continuing to do the thing you had

663
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,240
Speaker 1: come there to do. Right. You had come there morally

664
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,840
Speaker 1: willing to round up these people for genocide, but the

665
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: the approbation of the community around you suddenly makes you

666
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: unwilling to do that in that moment. Doesn't mean they

667
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 1: weren't willing to do it later. Um, But it doesn't

668
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: mean that like they decide that it's morally wrong, you know. Um.

669
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: A big factor in what may be happening is that

670
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 1: when they are presented with a crowd of people protesting them,

671
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: they suddenly think, why might get punished for this later?

672
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: This might not be safe for me, Like, if this

673
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: is pissing off this many people, I actually might like

674
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: have to like deal with consequences for participating in this, right. Um.

675
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 1: So that may be part of what's going on, But

676
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:15,760
Speaker 1: it does point to and this is something STAB points

677
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: out a lot. It's actually not useless to like, one

678
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: of the most useful things you can do at every

679
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: stage of like of of kind of building genocidal tensions

680
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: is make it clear that like you hate what these

681
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,799
Speaker 1: people are doing and you oppose them, um, because that

682
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: has a number of influences that can like at least

683
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 1: mitigate the harms that are being done. Um. And that's

684
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,120
Speaker 1: this is kind of gets to like the root of

685
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: what the humanization dialogue is getting at. You know. The

686
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,240
Speaker 1: problem that most often when people talk about to humanizing

687
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: in the context of genocide, they frame it as the

688
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: use of specific language to deny people their humanity UM

689
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: in order to prepare to execute a genocide UM. And

690
00:36:57,080 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: that's not always how it goes, and in fact, there's

691
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: more evidence for it occurring the opposite way around. In Cambodia,

692
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: for example, killers reported being disturbed by the acts of

693
00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: mass murder they committed it first, and then reported that

694
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: it got easier with time, like killing ducks and chickens.

695
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 1: And part of this is that like the longer you

696
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: do this without people stopping you, and the more the

697
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: less like resistance you encounter to it, the more it

698
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: just seems like if you're in a culture where people

699
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: are doing this, you feel less like number one, you're

700
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: gonna get punished for it, less like it's a problem.

701
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,920
Speaker 1: It gets more like That's a big part of like

702
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: what the humanization is not what happens before, but what

703
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 1: happens like during UM And a lot of the participants

704
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: in the Cambodian genocide will say that, like they hated

705
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: what they were doing at first, and then with time

706
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: they just came to regard it as like killing ducks

707
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: and chickens, you know, the way they'd slaughtered animals as

708
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: kids on the farm. UM. They integrated the execution of

709
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: human beings in their lives into their lives in order

710
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: to like protect themselves right. Um and professor Eliza Luft

711
00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: has also written and researched this topic extensively, and she writes, quote,

712
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: I find that the humanization is more often an outcome

713
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: of participation in violence rather than a precursor. In other words,

714
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,200
Speaker 1: people make difficult decisions about whether or not to participate

715
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: in genocide based on their access to financial resources, who

716
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 1: they're being asked to kill, their proximity to extremists ordering

717
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: the violence, and signals sent by local elites. But the

718
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: more they kill, the easier killing becomes, and this is

719
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:24,280
Speaker 1: partly due to shifts in social perception. Although a vincent

720
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,240
Speaker 1: genocide describe reactions that include vomiting, shaking, nightmares, and trauma

721
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: the first few times they kill, over time their physical

722
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 1: and emotional horror at killing subsides. My research suggests this

723
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: cognitive adaptation of violence goes hand in hand with a

724
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: transformation and how ordinary killers perceive their victims. Dehumanizing propagandic

725
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,720
Speaker 1: and help with this process, but providing participants with cultural

726
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: narratives that frame violence is the morally right thing to do.

727
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: And this is when we talk about preventing genocide you

728
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier, like the racial motivations and stuff. That's key

729
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: at like the core of people who are trying to

730
00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 1: plan and organize this. One of the ways to disrupt it,

731
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 1: you have to disrupt all of these potential incentives, right.

732
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 1: It's about creating friction for the people who want to

733
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,280
Speaker 1: organize this. It's about making it difficult for folks to profit.

734
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: It's about making it difficult for people to feel like

735
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: this is okay. It's about making them like see and

736
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: encounter resistance constantly at every stage of this, because that's

737
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 1: a big part of like stopping people from feeling stopping

738
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 1: people from like stopping the people who will actually do

739
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,720
Speaker 1: most of the activity of genocide from getting from feeling

740
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 1: like they this is a good thing for them to do. Um,

741
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: it's disrupting like the signaling and the messaging that that

742
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 1: that brings people in, you know, like that's the stage

743
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: at which you can stop this stuff. Yeah, I think

744
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: that there's there's certainly a level of feeling of impunity,

745
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: and most of the people that would end up doing

746
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 1: these things, they'll they'll also, in my opinion, a lot

747
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 1: of the people who would end up committing the violence

748
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 1: didn't actually ever see themselves doing it. Um Like the

749
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 1: Reserve Italian that Christopher Browning writes about, those guys were

750
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: all people who were um uh like discharge from military

751
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,360
Speaker 1: service or not allowed to have military service due to

752
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,600
Speaker 1: medical problems. So it's a job like they thought they

753
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,200
Speaker 1: were gonna like go be occupied territory cops and ship um.

754
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 1: And as far as like uh the Rwandan Genna said,

755
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 1: or even the Armenian gen I said, where a lot

756
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: of violence is communal. Uh, there's there's an intense um

757
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 1: economic problem, economic friction and a history of conflict with

758
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: these people between the two groups, and unfortunately just takes

759
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 1: someone to harness it and allow them to be in

760
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: a position to grant impunity. Um. But I think that

761
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: the communities they are taking part in it, uh like

762
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: you've pointed out, or only doing it because they're like, well,

763
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: we're clearly going to get away with this, Like they're not,

764
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: They're not gonna live. Nobody starts off, you know, uh,

765
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: starting a checkpoint with a a chetty outside of if

766
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: they think like there's would be a trial in like

767
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: six months exactly exactly and part of like, you know,

768
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: one of the things that Left points out is that

769
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 1: like a thing that can influence populations to participate is

770
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: like their proper their proximity to extremists ordering the violence.

771
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: What stand them to point out is like these malicious,

772
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,440
Speaker 1: these nonstate groups, which is like one of the reasons

773
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: why when anti fascists talk about the point the value

774
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 1: of like confronting groups in the street at the early

775
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: stages of this, that's part of the value of that.

776
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 1: It's not just that like you'll stop them from coming out,

777
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways it just makes them

778
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 1: want to come out. It's other people who might kind

779
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 1: of passively go along with them when they start setting

780
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: up checkpoints, seeing how much resistance there is to those

781
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 1: groups and the things that they say, Right, it's about

782
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,359
Speaker 1: keeping Yeah, some of it is about because again there's

783
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: a number of things that can like flip in a

784
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: person that can make them willing to participate this. It's

785
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 1: it's about trying to make it so that people never

786
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:58,160
Speaker 1: feel like this is a thing they can participate in

787
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: with impunity or without being ostracized from society, right, Like

788
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: that's that's that's part of it. That's part of it,

789
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: Like none of this there's no simple solution to stopping genesis. Oh,

790
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: of course, that's part of something. It's something that we've

791
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 1: been trying to figure out since Raphael Emkin first wrote

792
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 1: his insanely long book. But like a good example of

793
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 1: this is like, oh, the water is getting too hot.

794
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: Time to fucking bail. Is like the plots against Hitler

795
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,240
Speaker 1: during World War Two. I mean, yeah, there was several

796
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: plots against him early on, but they really only picked

797
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: up once it became pretty fucking clear that like, yeah,

798
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: this this, this ship is coming down on us. Yeah,

799
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: Like the famous Staufenberg plot was like not because Staufenberg

800
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,160
Speaker 1: hated the Nazis, it was because he didn't like that

801
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: they were losing. Yeah, i mean he was a Nazi

802
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: and he was anti Semitic, and he was one of

803
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 1: those guys. It's like, okay, so death camps a stepped

804
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: too far, But even even that, it seemed like and

805
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: then that seemed but even then him and most of

806
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 1: the central organizers of that plot had all been on

807
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: the Eastern Front at some point and they were like,

808
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: we're gonna fucking lose. Yeah, we're going to We're gonna lose.

809
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,879
Speaker 1: And also when you're at that level of command where

810
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 1: you're like sitting with Hitler to bunker, you know, not

811
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 1: only are we're gonna lose, but like, oh ship, there's

812
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: going to be hell to pay, and this is coming

813
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: down on us. There is going to be hell to pay.

814
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: It isn't the consequences of my action. Yeah, speaking of

815
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: the consequences of my actions. If you buy these products

816
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 1: and services, the main consequence of your actions is that

817
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: you'll finally be happy. All right, here's that. All right,

818
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: we are back. So you know, people, I think, as

819
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 1: we're repeatedly getting onto here, are complicated and so our

820
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: genocides and we're never talking about a single reason. You know, again,

821
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 1: in every genocide, there's probably there's individual people whose motivations

822
00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: are very simple and can be as simple as like

823
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:00,959
Speaker 1: I'm just a piece of it. You know, those guys

824
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: like Oscar Durro Linger, like these guys exist, right, there's

825
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: people who just suck ass like comprehensively, and that's why

826
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 1: they're on board. But you you can't actually do a

827
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: whole genocide with just those people. No, you need the

828
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 1: they need the whole banality of evil to back you

829
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: up exactly exactly. UM. And that's the thing like I

830
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: think people UM misinterpret that sometimes is like being entirely

831
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: focused on like guys like um Aikman, who are these

832
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: like bureaucrats. But like part of it is that motivations

833
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: for genocide can be ben ow they're not. Everyone was

834
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: radicalized to think that the Jews were this like Titanic threat.

835
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: It's like, no, they were like they they participated in

836
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: the Holocaust for pretty banal reasons in a lot of cases. Yeah,

837
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,280
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of attempting to make things palatable

838
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: for people. Like a good example like, um, the very

839
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: beginning stages of the Holocaust is like, well, you know,

840
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: before they started death campster killing the mentally ill, um,

841
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: the disabled, And that was to you know that we

842
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 1: don't hate these people, um, but you know they're you know,

843
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: evolutionary dead ends. Um. They're hurting everybody, but this is

844
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: better for them, you know. UM. And you see a

845
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: good parallel of that in my opinion and in the

846
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: peak of the elimination eliminationist rhetoric that we're seeing in

847
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: the United States right now is um, the framing of

848
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 1: trans identity is mental illness. Yes, um, so you well,

849
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,800
Speaker 1: you want to cure mental illness, right, Like why wouldn't

850
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 1: you want to do that? So you have states like

851
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: Florida or I believe Texas and a few others who

852
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: are forcing de transition on people, um in order to

853
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 1: cure them. And it's I think it's it's both that

854
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 1: they are talking about forcing de transition because these people

855
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: need to be cured, but they're also talking about um

856
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: they're a belief that they're spreading it, right, which justifies

857
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: could be used to justify elimination in the same way

858
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: that like the Nazis talked about the Jews and how

859
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 1: like you can't let people who are just like a

860
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,879
Speaker 1: quarter Jewish lib because they're spreading this like there's something

861
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 1: inherently you know. And again this is the high level

862
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: justification for it. But like this is also that's part

863
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 1: of why the individuals got on board, is like this

864
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: this this rhetoric that was explained to them, like because

865
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: you have to give people some kind of explanation, right,

866
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: people feel a threat from the state or they feel

867
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: like that they're going to be ostracized, and also the

868
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: propaganda lets them feel that they're victims are somehow less

869
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,400
Speaker 1: human and not just that but a threat to them, right. Um.

870
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: And you you get some of this in like the

871
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 1: correspondence of einstets group of talking about like what, we

872
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: have to kill these babies because they'll grow up into

873
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 1: Jews will like threaten our babies and stuff. Um. And

874
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: so you know the killing is justified. But also it's

875
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: not just that it's that I'm getting paid to do this.

876
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: This is my job. This is keeping me away from

877
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:54,439
Speaker 1: a more dangerous chunk of the front um or maybe

878
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 1: I'll get a promotion from the party if I'm like

879
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: doing it, you know, this other role in like the

880
00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: Holocaust or something. If I can effectively move all these

881
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,839
Speaker 1: people on these trains, you know, it's it's almost best

882
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:08,360
Speaker 1: to look at the willingness of members of a population

883
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: to participate or allow genocide to occur with their consent,

884
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,399
Speaker 1: as like the weakening of an immune system. Like there's

885
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: certain individual barriers and people that make them unwilling to

886
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: support something like this. And you don't just like flip

887
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: a switch over time, but you you weaken barriers and

888
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: you get them to like, well, you know, you're not

889
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,640
Speaker 1: saying yes to massacre in all these people, but like,

890
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: let's get them out of our community. Um, let's get

891
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: them out of our schools, let's shut down their ability

892
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: to operate clinics. Let's do And like the every kind

893
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 1: of new incentive weakens more barriers, and again things get

894
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, It's like we just talked about Staffenberg, high

895
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: level Nazi UM and he was deeply anti Semitic. He

896
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 1: believed in the Nuremberg Laws and see anything wrong with them.

897
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,560
Speaker 1: His main problem is he didn't he thought killing them

898
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,399
Speaker 1: was too far. But once you've gotten to that point,

899
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:02,720
Speaker 1: what what barrier is? They're like, you've already you've already

900
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:08,600
Speaker 1: acquiesced to camps, to arianization, to force deportation, Like, really,

901
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 1: how far of a jump is it? For most people?

902
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: And for him, I mean, he didn't attempt to kill

903
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: Hitler because of the Holocaust. So for for people like him,

904
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 1: who I fully believe would be and are generally the

905
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: vast majority of people that are the you know, the

906
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: state actors of any kind of genocidal powder, whether it

907
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: be the Empire, Nazi, Germany, UH, the United States, uss R, whoever, UM,

908
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,759
Speaker 1: the vast majority of people will talk themselves into accepting

909
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 1: a certain amount of this um that they directly have

910
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: their hands in, or they can directly see, and whatever

911
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,359
Speaker 1: happens beyond what they see, and that somebody else's problem,

912
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 1: I can't speak of it. They'll they'll talk themselves into

913
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:55,279
Speaker 1: becoming palatable because much like you reserved police Batalion one

914
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: oh one, this is this is a salary, this is

915
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:00,320
Speaker 1: the pension I can take care of my family. So

916
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, people are able to compartmentalize of

917
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:08,640
Speaker 1: why they need to be this, you know, horribly murderous bureaucrat,

918
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:12,319
Speaker 1: because well, I'm just filing papers. My hands aren't bloody. Yeah,

919
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 1: And this is I think why I have been as

920
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: I think most people who participated in a lot of

921
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,880
Speaker 1: protests very critical about the value of protests in a

922
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:22,759
Speaker 1: lot of situations. But when it comes to stuff like

923
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 1: they don't say gay Bill, when it comes to stuff

924
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,960
Speaker 1: like like okay, folks are saying some really sketchy elimination

925
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,879
Speaker 1: of stuff about trans people, we should get as many

926
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: fucking people out in the street. And a part of

927
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 1: the value of that is making not the most You're

928
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: not going to change anybody's mind. I'd like the fucking

929
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: Rhonda Santis level, But there's a lot of people who

930
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 1: are more on the edge, and you're not going to

931
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: make them into suddenly nicer, woke people, but you can

932
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: convince them as like, oh, if things get worse and

933
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: more is demanded of me against this population, there's a

934
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: lot of folks who are gonna want my fucking head,

935
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 1: you know, And there's a value you and I mean

936
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,240
Speaker 1: you're know, like it's like Paul Gossar as a fucking

937
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: white nationalists. You're never going to change it. And we

938
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:08,759
Speaker 1: do the psychoever, yeah, and you know, we both have

939
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: in the past and will in the future, have laughed

940
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 1: at things like polite society and things like that. But

941
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 1: when you make a guy like that feel so deeply

942
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: unwelcome and any open space because if his his rhetoric

943
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: is obscene, it simply won't happen that much anymore. Like

944
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: these ideas are allowed to propagate, like you've shown and

945
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,879
Speaker 1: talked about before on your show, Um, where they use

946
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,959
Speaker 1: the guy as a freedom of speech to spread hate.

947
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: They don't care about freedom of speech, they care about

948
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: spreading hate. That's it. Yeah, Um, so yeah, And I

949
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,279
Speaker 1: think what's important about looking at it all this way

950
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: and the way that we've been talking about is that

951
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: when you think about when you think about kind of

952
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: getting people able to commit to participate, to allow genocide

953
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: as as in this more fluid way, it frames the

954
00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: willingness to engage in mass killing as more fragile than

955
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: people tend to think it is, which is important. This

956
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: is why strident's sudden opposition in the moment can delay

957
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: or prevent acts of genocide. Is Wallen. Wallenberg stopped a

958
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: shipload of people from getting deported from Budapest on fucking

959
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 1: trains because he would wave papers in their face and

960
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 1: yell bureaucratically at Nazi soldiers, and it made them think

961
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: they'd get in trouble, right, and that saved thousands of lives.

962
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:28,360
Speaker 1: Look at the safety community in Nan king exactly, headed

963
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 1: by a literal Nazi who pointed out that, like all

964
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: fucking contact the Counselate of of Nazi Germany, if you

965
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: hurt anybody under my command, like anybody under my protection,

966
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: and that that wall of like I might get in

967
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: trouble is what stopped Japanese soldiers from like they They

968
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,880
Speaker 1: possibly saved over two or thousand people. Yeah, And the

969
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 1: only thing that saved him was in force of arms.

970
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 1: So that is important when a genocide is unfolding, because

971
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 1: once it started, you can't prevent it. You have to

972
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: stop it. But in the prevention stage, the thing that

973
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: stops people from the murder is this smite blow up

974
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 1: in my face exactly exactly um. And And again that's

975
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,640
Speaker 1: the uplifting part of this is that like, you can,

976
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: you can, you can stop this. And and it's about

977
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: like what we're talking about when a guy like Wallenberg

978
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 1: shows up or that fucking Nazi and Nan King, they

979
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: are disrupting and reordering the higher like the hierarchy of

980
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 1: kind of needs and fears and the head of the

981
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 1: individuals who were previously willing to undergo genocide, and they're

982
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: deciding in that moment, this is not safe, this is

983
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,439
Speaker 1: not a good idea, this is not beneficial in this moment. Again,

984
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:38,000
Speaker 1: you're not de radicalizing them, but you don't always need

985
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 1: to write um and yeah. It's honestly, I think a

986
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: lot about like the way doctors can talk about suicide

987
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: sometimes where it's like, well, there are and this is

988
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: not everyone who participates in a genocide, but like there

989
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:54,480
Speaker 1: are moments where they're willing to especially in the case

990
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 1: like Rwanda and other moments where they wouldn't be willing

991
00:52:57,280 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: to and if you can disrupt someone in them and

992
00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:02,719
Speaker 1: what they're willing to, they won't do it again necessarily. Um,

993
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: that's maybe worth thinking about. Um yeah, prevention. Prevention is

994
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,920
Speaker 1: real tricky. Um. I mean it's something that even people

995
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: in the field of genocide studies still don't completely agree

996
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: on what should do. Like famously, the guy one of

997
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 1: the people that runs Doctors Without Borders said like, you

998
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 1: can't stop a fucking genocide with doctors, yeah, effectively saying

999
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:28,560
Speaker 1: that once it begins, the only thing you can do

1000
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: is kill the perpetrators until it stops, which I don't

1001
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: disagree with. I don't, I'm not I'm not going to

1002
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,279
Speaker 1: argue with that statement. No, but obviously, like, of course,

1003
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 1: the prevention, like the key is prevention, Like, yeah, it's

1004
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,759
Speaker 1: great that you can, you know, the collective forces of

1005
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 1: the Allies stop the Holocaust from happening or from being complete,

1006
00:53:50,680 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 1: but the goal is to stop it from getting that

1007
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: fun boy, it got pretty far. Yeah, um yeah, it

1008
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 1: was not not a not a speedy uh, not a

1009
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:05,919
Speaker 1: speedy intervention, And they certainly didn't even intervene to stop

1010
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: the Holocaust. Honestly, it was the fucking international equivalent of

1011
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: stacking dudes outside the door in a fucking classroom. While

1012
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,320
Speaker 1: there's like it took way longer than it should have.

1013
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,799
Speaker 1: We can talk about boatloads of Jewish people being sent

1014
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: away from the shores of the United States during the

1015
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 1: Holocaust because the administration didn't want to seem sympathetic towards

1016
00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: the Jews as they were trying to get support built

1017
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: up to enter the war, like all sorts of ship

1018
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 1: I mean, and really even the successful genocides that have

1019
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: been ended via military action were never that military action

1020
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: the end. Then we're never initiated, with the exception of

1021
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,240
Speaker 1: very very few, to actually stop a genocide like obviously

1022
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: World War two comes to mind, world War One and

1023
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: the Eastern Front, And I would add, what the what

1024
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: the YPG did in northern Iraq, Vietnam invading Cambodia, they

1025
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: stumbled into a genocide, saying what the funk is going

1026
00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:02,520
Speaker 1: on here? You know? I would I would argue that

1027
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,440
Speaker 1: the YPG and coalition forces stopping the genocide. This Yas

1028
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: is one of the one of the times that I

1029
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: was done on purpose and in a relatively timely manner. Yeah, Um,

1030
00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 1: the same with you know, Yugoslavia. Yeah, less timely, significantly less,

1031
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:27,279
Speaker 1: significantly less timely. Unfortunately, once you pull the military card,

1032
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,280
Speaker 1: things get even worse because you have to kill people.

1033
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: That's why prevention is so freaking important and it's so

1034
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 1: widely overlooked, and it's one of the things like I

1035
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 1: I think I already said that, it's very, very hard

1036
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:47,160
Speaker 1: two champion genocide prevention because you're proving that something did

1037
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:52,239
Speaker 1: not happen, uh, and people and what if you It's

1038
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 1: a lot like how we all would really like to

1039
00:55:56,239 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: um envision convincing really weird right wingers at climate change

1040
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: is real, because like, what's the worst thing that happens

1041
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:09,439
Speaker 1: if I'm right? The air is cleaner, Yeah, it's nicer outside. Yeah,

1042
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: well you're gonna crash the economy. Yeah, what's the worst

1043
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,440
Speaker 1: thing that happens if we are worried about elimination? Elimination

1044
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,520
Speaker 1: is rhetoric whenever it pops up, whether it be trans

1045
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:23,520
Speaker 1: or gay people or um uh you know, uh rohingia

1046
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: or weagers, like, what's the worst that happens if we're wrong?

1047
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: There wasn't a genocide? No, sorry, people were less shitty

1048
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: to teenagers who were dealing with one of the things

1049
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: that is most difficult to deal with in our society.

1050
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 1: It's it's literally something that own the group of kids

1051
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:47,560
Speaker 1: had a better childhood. That's the downside. Fuck, you can't

1052
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: have that. It's one of the things that literally only

1053
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: has upside. No, and it's it's I mean, it comes

1054
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: down to because again, as you said, there's not broad

1055
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 1: agreement on how to prevent genocides because spoilers, we have

1056
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: not figured out conclusively how to stop genocide from happening.

1057
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,920
Speaker 1: There's several going on right now, but one thing is

1058
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:09,319
Speaker 1: making the people at the at the the central top

1059
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: level of the genocide hierarchy, the folks pushing all of

1060
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 1: the things the kind of genocide elites, making them scared

1061
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: to say ship that's a part of it, and making

1062
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: the people who are potentially lower on that totem pole,

1063
00:57:22,400 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: who might listen to those militias or whatnot in the moment,

1064
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 1: realize that they they they will be wrecked if they

1065
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: take part in that. That there's more people who don't

1066
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: like that sort of ship. So they get scared and

1067
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: they shut the funk up, make racists afraid again, not

1068
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: that it's always about racism, but like you know, you

1069
00:57:40,520 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: get what I'm saying, Like, make bigots worried about their actions,

1070
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: Like that's why would people complain, Like what's the worst

1071
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:52,000
Speaker 1: thing that are What could you possibly be doing uh

1072
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: to to change anything? If you're outing members of far

1073
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:59,960
Speaker 1: right militias at protests, That's why they're covering. They're high

1074
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: seeing themselves for a reason, because they're worried about what's

1075
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: going to happen to them when people realize they're marching

1076
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:11,240
Speaker 1: around where wearing a short says six million wasn't enough. Yeah, yeah,

1077
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: make them yeah exactly. And it's one of those things

1078
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: to get back to the script a little bit um

1079
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 1: when we talk about how like much you can disrupt

1080
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 1: someone's motivational hierarchy and the way in which like that

1081
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 1: can actually stop actions. There's there's a Robert J. Lifton

1082
00:58:29,840 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: cites a case of an inmate in a concentration camp

1083
00:58:32,760 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 1: who put in a request with a Nazi doctor who

1084
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: had a I mean, who was a Nazi doctor in

1085
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: a concentration right, um, yeah, and he he puts in

1086
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: this like weird request in the doctor grants it and

1087
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 1: it winds up saving this guy's life and and referencing

1088
00:58:47,360 --> 00:58:52,320
Speaker 1: the situation, Staub argues, apparently the inmates unusual behavior activated

1089
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 1: some motivation low in the hierarchy, politeness, correctness, and responding

1090
00:58:55,960 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: to a request, perhaps even compassion um, and this allowed

1091
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:02,360
Speaker 1: him to like grant this guy's exception requests that got

1092
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 1: him out of like the uh you know, the kind

1093
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: of hopper to get fed into the genocide machine. And

1094
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:10,200
Speaker 1: it's like it's in the same way that like what

1095
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: Wallenberg was doing with a lot of these Nazis who

1096
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:14,960
Speaker 1: were trying to load Jews onto on two trains. He

1097
00:59:15,120 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: was disrupting what they were doing by activating something that

1098
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 1: was deeper programmed in them. The idea that like, yeah,

1099
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: if a guy who claims to be a government official

1100
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 1: comes up to you and you're a state employee and

1101
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:28,840
Speaker 1: tells you to stop what you're doing because it's illegal,

1102
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: you kind of stop, right, Yeah. And there there's a

1103
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: there's a book on rescuers during the Holocaust. I think

1104
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 1: it's called like the Psychology of Rescue. You can't I

1105
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 1: can't remember exactly what's called, but they point out that

1106
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: one of the ways that many people rescued people. Wasn't

1107
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: because they had some deep seated revulsion of Um, of

1108
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,040
Speaker 1: of Nazism, or even they maybe they didn't even like

1109
00:59:54,200 --> 00:59:56,360
Speaker 1: Jews all that much. But one of one of the

1110
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: things that stuck out, especially in the case of like

1111
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: that doctor, not that I'm called him a rescuer, he

1112
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,520
Speaker 1: was a literal doctor at a concentration camp. But his

1113
01:00:03,640 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: psychology was like, well, he put in a request, as

1114
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: you should, I reproved it. Like I'm not saving this

1115
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: man's life, I'm simply doing my job. Yeah. Like there

1116
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: there was like a bureaucratic shield in front of them

1117
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 1: where they didn't see what they're doing is necessarily good

1118
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 1: or bad. They're simply doing their job. And this is why, um,

1119
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 1: oh God, I forget the name of the sky. The

1120
01:00:23,280 --> 01:00:25,960
Speaker 1: guy who wrote Blood Lands UM, which is a great

1121
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 1: book about the genocide in in primarily like East or

1122
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: in like Ukraine and Poland, will point out that the

1123
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,200
Speaker 1: areas in which the Jewish communities were most thoroughly destroyed

1124
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 1: were places that had suffered what he called double state

1125
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: destruction UM, which is where like the government is destroyed,

1126
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: another government came in, and it was in this case

1127
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: it's like the Soviets took over, they destroyed the existing government,

1128
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 1: and then the Soviets were destroyed and the government structure

1129
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: they took they had created, was destroyed, and you saw

1130
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 1: higher percentages of like the Jewish population wiped out in

1131
01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: those areas. Then you didn't say France, where the Nazis

1132
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: just kind of took over and tweaked the existing state structure.

1133
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 1: And part of it is because there was bureaucratic There

1134
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 1: were levels of bureaucracy that people could hide in and

1135
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: that provided like kind of excuses for folks to save

1136
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,800
Speaker 1: their lives. Right. A lot of the Jews who were

1137
01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: saved in Western Europe were saved because like some functionary

1138
01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 1: was able to find a way that it wasn't technically

1139
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 1: illegal to like protect them, you know. Um. Anyway, it's

1140
01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: probably worth talking about propaganda at some point here because

1141
01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:35,400
Speaker 1: while we've been I think intel like rightfully cautioning people

1142
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: against over like amplify over amplifying the value of a

1143
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:43,240
Speaker 1: elimination is propaganda and genocide because it's all the popular

1144
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 1: culture tends to focus on. Um. It is a factor, right,

1145
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:50,920
Speaker 1: it's not a non fall corn genocide. UM. And in

1146
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: the context of modern fears about a new genocide. A

1147
01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: number of folks recently have made very direct comparisons between

1148
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:00,480
Speaker 1: modern right wing media and radio um and radio stations

1149
01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 1: in Rwanda during that genocide. This line of argument became

1150
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 1: particularly common in the wake of the Buffalo shooting, in

1151
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 1: which a teenaged white supremacist killed ten people at a

1152
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: grocery store in a majority black area. Because the shooter

1153
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:16,320
Speaker 1: espoused the great Replacement conspiracy theory, which Tucker Carlson also pushes,

1154
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:19,040
Speaker 1: a lot of folks claimed to causitive link between the two.

1155
01:02:19,400 --> 01:02:21,400
Speaker 1: I will tell you right now, there was none, Tucker.

1156
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: The kid was radicalized elsewhere, right, Not that Tucker Carlson

1157
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: is not saying things that can that can influence people

1158
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 1: to participate in mass Kelly, I'm not saying that. But

1159
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: this kid that that's not where this happened from. But

1160
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 1: and and similarly, like Scott's Scott Stross sort of research

1161
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:41,560
Speaker 1: paper r TLM, which is the main uh compower radio

1162
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: station broadcasting at a Kigali And um, it didn't. I mean,

1163
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it didn't have an effect. It did marginally. UM.

1164
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 1: I mean, and I think that shows um again, what

1165
01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 1: we we talked about that while propaganda is real, it's

1166
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 1: not the magic bullet um. Sort of like people have

1167
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 1: this concept of r t l M as being machette.

1168
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,440
Speaker 1: Radio is like, it's a term commonly used for it,

1169
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: but it hardly broadcasted outside of the capital of Kegali

1170
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 1: due to geography. Rwanda has tons of mountains. Radio doesn't

1171
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 1: like contains um so and not to mention like, some

1172
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: of the worst killings took place in a southern commune

1173
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 1: which had no r TLM reception, so like, similarly, these

1174
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,280
Speaker 1: people were influenced by other means to do mass killing,

1175
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:36,000
Speaker 1: not this thing that makes it easier for us to understand.

1176
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um so, uh yeah, I think um when

1177
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,320
Speaker 1: it comes to kind of the way in which this

1178
01:03:46,720 --> 01:03:49,480
Speaker 1: incorrect view of what happened in Rwanda is getting sort

1179
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:52,400
Speaker 1: of like compared with things today. A good example would

1180
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 1: be NPR Steve inn Skype, who tweeted quote a fact

1181
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 1: about Rwanda's genocide has always struck with me. The ruling

1182
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 1: party caused much of the killing by going on the

1183
01:03:59,640 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: radio and telling ethnic Hutoos that ethnic tootsies must be killed.

1184
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: Along with Hutus, who disapproved, many people listened and dismembered

1185
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 1: their neighbors. For a brief overview of the Rwanda We're

1186
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: we're getting in all of this, but let's let's get

1187
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: it overwhere. So Rwanda was a Belgian colony for a

1188
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,280
Speaker 1: long time, and if you know the Belgians, they did

1189
01:04:17,360 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 1: them some genocide in the regions that they were in. Things. Yeah, Now,

1190
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 1: the Tootsies were used as their model natives right and

1191
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 1: favored over the huto This is a thing that every

1192
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:30,440
Speaker 1: colonizing power, it does absolutely everywhere UM and it's um

1193
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,280
Speaker 1: caused a lot of anger between the Hutuos and the Tutsies,

1194
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: who previously had not really been all that separate right

1195
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: as they were, they weren't even an ethnic group. It

1196
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 1: was a social class exactly. It was very fluid. A

1197
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 1: hut could become a Tootsie, Tutsi could become a hut

1198
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: the Because it's easier for them as the colonizers, they

1199
01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:50,720
Speaker 1: solidify this, and part of what they do is they

1200
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,680
Speaker 1: put out a system of racial ideas which further informalize

1201
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:56,680
Speaker 1: this division. UM. Now, this does support one of Dr

1202
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: Stanton's ten stages of genocide, but it also interestingly makes

1203
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: the point that stages don't all need to be purposefully

1204
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 1: incited in order their drive people towards the genocide, because

1205
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 1: the Belgians are just doing this because they're lazy. Um

1206
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:09,800
Speaker 1: in this makes it easier to run a colony. But

1207
01:05:09,880 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 1: it does help, and this is a big part of

1208
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 1: why the genocide happens, and it's part of why they're

1209
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:16,800
Speaker 1: able to know who's whotu and who's a Tutsies because

1210
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: we have fucking cards, you know. Um ye. Then they

1211
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:22,600
Speaker 1: then that probably like you were just talking about propaganda,

1212
01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 1: that propaganda takes over and then over generations it becomes

1213
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: real like that like Divide. It doesn't matter if it's

1214
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 1: real or fake. It's it's perceived as being real, therefore

1215
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: it's real now in any case. In nineteen nine four,

1216
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,439
Speaker 1: following the assassination of the president during a very ugly

1217
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 1: civil war, WHO to government and military officials, orchestrated a

1218
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 1: three month orgy of racial violence, culminating in the massacre

1219
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: of more than five hundred thousand people. In the aftermath

1220
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:50,600
Speaker 1: of the killings, a lot focused on the broadcasts of

1221
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: specific radio stations, notably r T l M, and how

1222
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,920
Speaker 1: announcers referred to Tutsi as in yezi, which means cockroach,

1223
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: and advised listeners to hunt them down and massa here them.

1224
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:04,520
Speaker 1: There were cases where violence was clearly caused by radio broadcasts.

1225
01:06:04,680 --> 01:06:07,400
Speaker 1: On April twelfth, the broadcaster claimed armed Tutsie were at

1226
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 1: an Islamic center in Kegali. A day later, a mob

1227
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,720
Speaker 1: stormed the mosque and killed hundreds of people. That same day,

1228
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:15,760
Speaker 1: the announcer came back on the air and urged people

1229
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: to exterminate Tutsi and stopped them from taking power, so

1230
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: certainly not claiming that the radio had no influence on

1231
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 1: what was happening. Now there's a reason why they were

1232
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: all convicted of genocide. Yes, journalists and scholars seized on

1233
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 1: this as an explanation for the nightmarish slaughter, which seemed

1234
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 1: kind of inexplicable otherwise. Unfortunately, this led to descriptions of

1235
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:37,640
Speaker 1: events that sounded more than a little fucking racist. And

1236
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:39,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote Strauss here. Strauss isn't the one being

1237
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 1: the racist, but he's quoting other people's how they interpreted this.

1238
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:46,440
Speaker 1: I believe Darrell Lee is who he's quoting. Parts, Yeah,

1239
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,560
Speaker 1: I think one of them. But yeah. Writing in the

1240
01:06:48,640 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: preface to a siminal study. For example, a u An

1241
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:54,479
Speaker 1: investigator claimed that Rwanda. In Rwanda, media were the vector

1242
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,800
Speaker 1: by which the poison of racist propaganda is spread. Similarly,

1243
01:06:57,960 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 1: Melverne claims, in order to commit genocide and is necessary

1244
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: to define the victim as being outside human existence, vermin

1245
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: and subhuman. In Rewanda, the propaganda campaign against the minority

1246
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 1: Tutsis was relentless and its incitement to ethnic hatred and violence.

1247
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: Another observer, a journalist, asserts, when the radio said it

1248
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:14,640
Speaker 1: was time to kill the people opposed to the government,

1249
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: the mass has slid off a dark edge into insanity.

1250
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: The UN investigator quoted above similarly concluded that the poison

1251
01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 1: of radio propaganda is all the more effective because it

1252
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 1: is said the Rwandan peasant has a radio culture of

1253
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: holding a transistor up to his ear in one hand

1254
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,160
Speaker 1: and holding a machette in the other, waiting for orders

1255
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 1: emitted by our TLM. That's pretty racist, right. It reduces

1256
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:38,920
Speaker 1: them to like murdering automaton exactly. And what a lot

1257
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 1: of people are missing when you like, when you read

1258
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: passages like that and that one about the machete in

1259
01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: one hand radio, that's not Darely, that's someone else, but

1260
01:07:46,520 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: um One of the things that they're leaving out is

1261
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: our TLM only started about six months before the Genesis.

1262
01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:55,360
Speaker 1: Yeah we're we're yeah, well yeah, it's it was not

1263
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:59,440
Speaker 1: this was not like deeply rooted into their coach radio.

1264
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 1: How of Wanda, I believe has no radio signal at all.

1265
01:08:03,560 --> 01:08:05,200
Speaker 1: It is worth noting that, like this is a very

1266
01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: centralized state. It had been centralized under the Belgians, or

1267
01:08:08,320 --> 01:08:10,560
Speaker 1: Wanda still quite centralized today, and like that's not a

1268
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,760
Speaker 1: non factor in stuff. But like it is not this

1269
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 1: that people are not just like radio said to murder,

1270
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,080
Speaker 1: time to go murder. I guess this is why I'm

1271
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: doing it. It's very racist that it takes away everything,

1272
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:26,960
Speaker 1: and it's even it's worse because it'll it also allows

1273
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,240
Speaker 1: you to couch this and like, well they're illiterate, and

1274
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:32,040
Speaker 1: you know they they did have a high illiterate population,

1275
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,320
Speaker 1: but they're illiterate and therefore they're not as intelligent as

1276
01:08:35,439 --> 01:08:39,040
Speaker 1: I enlightened person from the outside. That's why this When

1277
01:08:39,080 --> 01:08:41,800
Speaker 1: this radio tells gonna go man a checkpoint with a

1278
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:44,360
Speaker 1: machete and kill everybody, I'm simply going to do it.

1279
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 1: There's this thing we had that we had these episodes

1280
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:49,759
Speaker 1: on General Butt Naked and the Liberian Civil War recently,

1281
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:52,280
Speaker 1: And you know, I had to make a point of

1282
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: because so much of what happens is so lurid, and

1283
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 1: it gets reported as like look at this, like these

1284
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: crazy like witch doctor like cannibals and stuff. That is,

1285
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 1: as someone accused me on Reddit of like trying to

1286
01:09:02,280 --> 01:09:04,479
Speaker 1: mitigate what he did by going into how it's not

1287
01:09:04,720 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 1: really any different from Western war crimes. And that's the

1288
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 1: same thing with Rwanda. It's not like, yes, there are

1289
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 1: elements of Rwandan culture that made this are part of

1290
01:09:14,200 --> 01:09:16,040
Speaker 1: why this happened, right, and some of that is how

1291
01:09:16,160 --> 01:09:18,960
Speaker 1: centralized the state and government is. And you can say

1292
01:09:19,000 --> 01:09:21,280
Speaker 1: the same thing about Germany that had an impact on

1293
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:23,920
Speaker 1: why things occurred the way that they did. There's nothing

1294
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: different about the centralization. They weren't like Rwandans weren't commanded

1295
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,559
Speaker 1: by their radios to do a genocide anymore than Germans

1296
01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: were commanded by Hitler over the radio to do a genocide. Um,

1297
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 1: there was a continuum of things that we're going on

1298
01:09:36,120 --> 01:09:38,920
Speaker 1: that made people willing to participate in this, and it's

1299
01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: a lot more complicated than they had a radio in

1300
01:09:41,479 --> 01:09:45,719
Speaker 1: their ears. I mean to mention that they check literally

1301
01:09:45,800 --> 01:09:51,080
Speaker 1: every block like Strauss's risk risk factor for genocide, like

1302
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 1: they've had previous massacres. Paul Harbor and Mia who I

1303
01:09:55,520 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: believe his first name is Paul, who is president that

1304
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:00,280
Speaker 1: was shot down, had since the civil war been eating

1305
01:10:00,320 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: more and more power to the Hutu power dynamic to

1306
01:10:04,360 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 1: rally power around himself because they were losing. Yeah, so

1307
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:11,480
Speaker 1: he had seeded more and more power to the incredibly

1308
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 1: far radical extreme of the Hootu power So by the

1309
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 1: time he was dead, he had effectively already lost power.

1310
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,400
Speaker 1: That's why when the major overlying conspiracy theories is he

1311
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: was shot down by the Hootu power section, nobody's entirely sure,

1312
01:10:25,800 --> 01:10:27,680
Speaker 1: but they think he was. And that is like the

1313
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,519
Speaker 1: inciting inside of the geness the president's plan get shot down.

1314
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,639
Speaker 1: It's still a mystery as to exactly what happened anyway.

1315
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: Strauss goes on to note that quote most discussions of

1316
01:10:36,360 --> 01:10:39,519
Speaker 1: Rwandan media affects attribute little or no agency to listeners.

1317
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 1: The Rwandan public is often characterized as hearing a drumbeat

1318
01:10:42,400 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: of racist messages and directly internalizing them, or as hearing

1319
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:47,640
Speaker 1: orders to kill and heating the command. Those views are

1320
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: consistent with stereotypes about Rwandan's, namely that they obey orders blindly,

1321
01:10:51,200 --> 01:10:53,680
Speaker 1: that they are poorly educated and thus easily manipulated, and

1322
01:10:53,720 --> 01:10:56,599
Speaker 1: that they are immersed in the culture of prejudice. Now

1323
01:10:56,760 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: Strauss carried out an exhaustive analysis of massacres in Rwanda

1324
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: where they occurred in relation to broadcast towers. In particular,

1325
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,479
Speaker 1: he looked at the strength of those towers and where

1326
01:11:05,520 --> 01:11:08,120
Speaker 1: they could reach, and when massacres occurred in relation to

1327
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:11,519
Speaker 1: specific broadcasts. His conclusion was that the vast majority of

1328
01:11:11,560 --> 01:11:13,960
Speaker 1: the violence could not be explained by urgents to kill

1329
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 1: from radio personalities, and then in fact, most of the

1330
01:11:16,760 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 1: broadcast people cited as inciting things happened after most of

1331
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:24,320
Speaker 1: the violence had occurred. UM. A follow up investigation from

1332
01:11:24,320 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 1: another group of academics used a village level data set

1333
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 1: from the genocide to estimate the impact of RTLM in

1334
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:33,799
Speaker 1: encouraging genocide. The attributed roughly ten percent of the overall

1335
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 1: violence to the station, which is a lot. Don't get

1336
01:11:36,120 --> 01:11:39,800
Speaker 1: me Rock. That's a lot for a radio station to

1337
01:11:39,920 --> 01:11:43,000
Speaker 1: incite UM and noted that these broadcasts had more of

1338
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:46,240
Speaker 1: an influence on convincing militias who were organized and radicalized

1339
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:48,919
Speaker 1: to kill ahead of time, to go after specific targets,

1340
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:51,559
Speaker 1: and then those militias would rope in civilians rather than

1341
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,200
Speaker 1: again people just like again, those folks prior to the

1342
01:11:55,280 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 1: fucking radio being involved, were already ready to kill. They

1343
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:01,240
Speaker 1: moved into an area because as a specific target was

1344
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:03,679
Speaker 1: signed posted by the radio, and they would rope civilians

1345
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:05,560
Speaker 1: in through coercion and a variety of other means that

1346
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,800
Speaker 1: we've already talked about. Um so yeah. Radio in mass

1347
01:12:09,880 --> 01:12:13,680
Speaker 1: media Absolutely no, No reasonable scholar would argue does not

1348
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:17,680
Speaker 1: play a significant role in genocide. Um But consistent with

1349
01:12:17,800 --> 01:12:20,200
Speaker 1: the research of guys like Stalbin Strauss, the willingness to

1350
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,439
Speaker 1: participate in such violence exists on a continuum. Even a

1351
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:26,439
Speaker 1: most Rwandan radio inspired massacres were committed by dudes who

1352
01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:30,560
Speaker 1: joined militias. Um so yeah. The article by Reynerman and

1353
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:33,599
Speaker 1: Wilson I cited earlier notes of Rwanda quote. A need

1354
01:12:33,680 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 1: for social belonging can result in a motivation for an

1355
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,160
Speaker 1: individual to want to conform to his or her group,

1356
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 1: leading to participation in order not to stick out and

1357
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:42,720
Speaker 1: to be able to remain part of the group. A

1358
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,600
Speaker 1: member of a group. Intervite interviewed by Hatsfield mentioned the

1359
01:12:45,640 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 1: strong bond to the group with whom he killed during

1360
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:50,599
Speaker 1: the genocide. We liked being in our gang. We all

1361
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 1: agreed about the new activities, and we helped each other

1362
01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:56,959
Speaker 1: out like comrades. Um their need. And again, it's traumatic

1363
01:12:57,040 --> 01:12:59,679
Speaker 1: to partake in this kind of killing, and trauma bonds

1364
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:03,920
Speaker 1: people together, you know. Um. So even in those situations

1365
01:13:03,920 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 1: where killings can be tied to particular broadcasts, it's ignorant

1366
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: to blame the propaganda in a vacuum, just as it's

1367
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: kind of ignorant to blame the propaganda Tucker Carlson spits

1368
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:15,320
Speaker 1: out for the Buffalo shooting. Tucker is allowed to do

1369
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:17,680
Speaker 1: what he does because people listen, and those people were

1370
01:13:17,760 --> 01:13:20,439
Speaker 1: conditioned to listen by folks other than Tucker, generations of

1371
01:13:20,520 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: right wing media and also family and friends. Right, the

1372
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:24,960
Speaker 1: fact that he's able to get up there and spread

1373
01:13:25,360 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 1: great replacement bullshit is the end part of a continuation

1374
01:13:29,479 --> 01:13:33,519
Speaker 1: of propaganda and and hatred. Um that you could, you could,

1375
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:35,280
Speaker 1: you could pull right back to the Civil War if

1376
01:13:35,320 --> 01:13:37,800
Speaker 1: you want to go back far enough, you know, um,

1377
01:13:38,000 --> 01:13:40,800
Speaker 1: Which doesn't mitigate Tucker's complicity in it at all. But

1378
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 1: it's not he's not generating it. You know, he's not

1379
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:48,080
Speaker 1: generating it. He's he's Um, he's a stage in a

1380
01:13:48,240 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: long procession. I'd like someone pointed out that he might

1381
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:53,680
Speaker 1: be one of the first extremists that was radicalized by

1382
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,799
Speaker 1: his own audience. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a big factor,

1383
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:58,840
Speaker 1: because he's doing it in part because it gets him

1384
01:13:58,840 --> 01:14:00,479
Speaker 1: the views, because it gets people to us in right,

1385
01:14:00,880 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: And that's the same thing that happens with a lot

1386
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 1: of people who get radicalized online. Right when we talk

1387
01:14:05,120 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 1: about the way like four chan and eight chan work,

1388
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:11,320
Speaker 1: where like people come into it like joking about this

1389
01:14:11,439 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 1: stuff and over time radicalize each other and into supporting

1390
01:14:15,120 --> 01:14:19,680
Speaker 1: the literal actions because there's no racism. No, there's no

1391
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:22,599
Speaker 1: ironic racism, and there's no iron there's no lone wolves.

1392
01:14:22,640 --> 01:14:26,720
Speaker 1: People are radicalized for violence in communities and by communities. Um,

1393
01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:30,760
Speaker 1: it's shared jokes, it's shared lingo, it's a desire for acceptance. UM.

1394
01:14:30,920 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 1: It's a variety of different things that like push people here. UM. Now,

1395
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,680
Speaker 1: of course again, obedience to authority can be one of

1396
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:42,760
Speaker 1: these things. UM, but it's it's authority doesn't always mean

1397
01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:45,519
Speaker 1: like a fewer sometimess the authority of like the kind

1398
01:14:45,560 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: of group consensus about what's cool, you know, about what's funny,

1399
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:53,000
Speaker 1: about what's good. Um. Obviously like one of the things

1400
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:55,679
Speaker 1: that gets talked about that got and this is something

1401
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:58,200
Speaker 1: that like I think as maybe a little more debatable

1402
01:14:58,240 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: when we talk about like the role of authority in genocide.

1403
01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 1: Um is the Milgram experiment, right, that's get This gets

1404
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:05,920
Speaker 1: talked about a lot. And in short, the Milgram experiment

1405
01:15:05,960 --> 01:15:12,080
Speaker 1: consisted of I think he didn't want the seventies. It

1406
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:15,519
Speaker 1: may I think it's because these went on for a while. Um,

1407
01:15:16,520 --> 01:15:19,600
Speaker 1: But the experiment consisted of experiment ers because Milgram was

1408
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:22,680
Speaker 1: trying to study like why do people like he was

1409
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:24,840
Speaker 1: looking at the just following orders excuse that a lot

1410
01:15:24,840 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 1: of nazis made and being like, well is that the case?

1411
01:15:27,520 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: And basically he would have a student deliver electric shocks

1412
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 1: to a patient who was actually an actor, but the

1413
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 1: student who was the test subject thought that they were

1414
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,080
Speaker 1: really shocking the person, and like a dude with a

1415
01:15:38,160 --> 01:15:41,320
Speaker 1: clipboard would tell them to periodically increase the voltage until

1416
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:43,120
Speaker 1: it got up to a level that was noted as

1417
01:15:43,120 --> 01:15:47,040
Speaker 1: being potentially lethal and the people who were delivering the shocks.

1418
01:15:47,080 --> 01:15:49,000
Speaker 1: Some of them would cry, a lot of them would argue.

1419
01:15:49,040 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 1: They were generally all pretty unhappy, but most would deliver

1420
01:15:52,120 --> 01:15:54,120
Speaker 1: the shocks when ordered to do so by an authority.

1421
01:15:54,200 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 1: Figure Stalbrights quote. Milgram suggested that people can enter an

1422
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 1: agentic mode in which they relinquish individual responsibility and act

1423
01:16:02,520 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 1: as agents of authority. While obedience is an important force,

1424
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:08,240
Speaker 1: it is not the true motive for mass killing your genocide.

1425
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,840
Speaker 1: The motivation to obey comes from a desire to follow

1426
01:16:10,880 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 1: a leader, to be a good member of a group,

1427
01:16:12,560 --> 01:16:15,360
Speaker 1: to show respect for authority. Those who willingly accept the

1428
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:17,800
Speaker 1: authority of leaders are likely to have also accepted their

1429
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: views in ideology guided by shared cultural dispositions, the shared

1430
01:16:21,640 --> 01:16:25,200
Speaker 1: experience of difficult life conditions, shared motivations that result from them,

1431
01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:28,360
Speaker 1: and shared inclinations for ways to satisfy motives, people join

1432
01:16:28,479 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 1: Rather than simply obey out of fear or respect. We

1433
01:16:31,240 --> 01:16:33,839
Speaker 1: must we must consider not only how those an authority

1434
01:16:33,880 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 1: gain obedience, but how the motivations of the whole group evolve.

1435
01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,760
Speaker 1: Miilgrim's dramatic demonstration of the power of authority, although of

1436
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:42,840
Speaker 1: great importance, may have slowed the development of a psychology

1437
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 1: of genocide as others came to view obedience as the

1438
01:16:45,160 --> 01:16:48,880
Speaker 1: main source of human destructiveness. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's

1439
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:52,680
Speaker 1: it's always interested, especially because when the main points I

1440
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 1: believe of that experiment was that they were told repeatedly

1441
01:16:55,640 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 1: they could quit whenever they want, yes, and the person

1442
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:00,960
Speaker 1: in the room with them, I believe, could only say

1443
01:17:01,080 --> 01:17:05,240
Speaker 1: you must continue the experiment. Yeah. Um, but like yeah,

1444
01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:09,320
Speaker 1: and that of course directly inspired the writing of Ordinary

1445
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,719
Speaker 1: Men and amongst other things. Yeah, and it it definitely

1446
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:18,120
Speaker 1: allows the dispersion of personal responsibility if you believe of

1447
01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 1: a bigger structure. And another thing I think is key

1448
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 1: is dispersion of your own personal responsibility into a structure

1449
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 1: you believe is impune, like you's not going to be

1450
01:17:28,360 --> 01:17:33,320
Speaker 1: held accountable for anything that it does. Yeah. Um. And

1451
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 1: it's it's again like so and and and stabs not

1452
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,960
Speaker 1: saying like this isn't a factor or like the Pilgram

1453
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:41,519
Speaker 1: experience doesn't say anything useful about genocide. It's the it's

1454
01:17:41,560 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 1: the kind of boiling at all that people want to say,

1455
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:47,120
Speaker 1: like one thing, right, um, and and it isn't And

1456
01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,800
Speaker 1: it's like and also just like the fact that people

1457
01:17:50,840 --> 01:17:53,600
Speaker 1: are like following authority isn't just as simple as like

1458
01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: they're following orders. It means that like they are they are.

1459
01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:59,880
Speaker 1: Their motivation is a desire to be in a power

1460
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 1: structure underneath an authority, and they accept the views and

1461
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 1: the values of that authority, right, which is more complicated

1462
01:18:05,920 --> 01:18:09,400
Speaker 1: than just thus, just I will follow orders, you know. Um,

1463
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:11,760
Speaker 1: there's and and this is an an area in which,

1464
01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:14,759
Speaker 1: like the authoritarian culture of Germany prior to the Nazi

1465
01:18:14,920 --> 01:18:17,560
Speaker 1: rise of power, affected the willingness of people to participate

1466
01:18:17,680 --> 01:18:24,320
Speaker 1: in the the instrument of genocide. Um. Yeah, uh, it's cool,

1467
01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:27,200
Speaker 1: and I think it is. It's important to have a

1468
01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: more complicated understanding of like what can motivate people to

1469
01:18:31,479 --> 01:18:35,280
Speaker 1: this than just I do whatever the leader tells me. Um,

1470
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:41,640
Speaker 1: Because that's not where genocides start. All genocide starts with

1471
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:44,559
Speaker 1: the willingness of human beings to partake in the act itself,

1472
01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 1: right like that is or if if not start because

1473
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:49,000
Speaker 1: it may be wrong to like prescribe it that way,

1474
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:52,160
Speaker 1: but that you can't have a genocide without the willingness

1475
01:18:52,439 --> 01:18:55,840
Speaker 1: of the of the people of people to participate, not

1476
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 1: just to participate, but to welcome or at least not

1477
01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:05,479
Speaker 1: discourage the people doing the participation, right, Like folks like it.

1478
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:09,960
Speaker 1: It's it's never, it's never one thing, Like societies are

1479
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:14,320
Speaker 1: are more complicated than that, And genocides are accomplished by societies, right,

1480
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:17,320
Speaker 1: They're noted by dudes who suck. Yeah. And and to

1481
01:19:17,439 --> 01:19:20,840
Speaker 1: be completely clear, we're not saying that like genocides occur

1482
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:24,560
Speaker 1: because of like the marginalized turned it out group is

1483
01:19:24,640 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 1: not resisting hard enough. It's lay people that could escape this.

1484
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 1: No problem, it's this. It's the slow incoming tide that

1485
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:38,000
Speaker 1: you're fined with. Like we like to like stereotypically, there's

1486
01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:43,559
Speaker 1: a famous poem about this. Um you know, um it's uh.

1487
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:46,920
Speaker 1: It's one of like, well, you know there's lawn Florida

1488
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:48,679
Speaker 1: isn't really a big deal. I don't live in Florida.

1489
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,840
Speaker 1: Well millions of people do. Yeah. Yeah. The the idea

1490
01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:53,639
Speaker 1: that like ha ha, well this is what the right gets,

1491
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:56,040
Speaker 1: you know, this bad thing happening in Florida because they

1492
01:19:56,080 --> 01:19:58,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't vote against It's like no, no, no, this is

1493
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,840
Speaker 1: a problem. And it's the same people who are are

1494
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 1: dumb enough to believe that this isn't gonna go nationwide

1495
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 1: after a while. Are the most naive motherfucker's have ever

1496
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 1: heard of. And this is a deeper naivety than just that.

1497
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:14,639
Speaker 1: I would extend it to people who say, oh, well,

1498
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,560
Speaker 1: it's not it's not our business, Like I don't like,

1499
01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:22,040
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I can dismiss the mass killings of

1500
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 1: of protesters in Syria because that's over there, you know.

1501
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 1: Um oh, Now suddenly millions of refugees have flooded Europe

1502
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:32,720
Speaker 1: and it's reignited a far right and victor Orbon has

1503
01:20:32,760 --> 01:20:37,120
Speaker 1: seized and centralized and into democratic functional democracy and Hungary

1504
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:39,479
Speaker 1: and now the Republicans are holding a sea pack. They're

1505
01:20:39,479 --> 01:20:41,160
Speaker 1: talking about how to do the same here, like but

1506
01:20:41,320 --> 01:20:45,479
Speaker 1: like every like I forgot that they had they did

1507
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:49,840
Speaker 1: you you it's all like you. You can't. You can't

1508
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 1: abrogate your responsibility to to be a part of the

1509
01:20:53,400 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 1: human race. And that includes being like, well this is

1510
01:20:56,760 --> 01:21:00,320
Speaker 1: like that, that's what actual like resistance to fascism is right,

1511
01:21:00,560 --> 01:21:04,960
Speaker 1: is like comprehensively calling out bad ship is bad, Like

1512
01:21:05,120 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 1: that's not not not being like, well it's in Florida,

1513
01:21:09,720 --> 01:21:14,759
Speaker 1: you know, Um, well it's until stupid South, stupid South,

1514
01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:18,479
Speaker 1: right like it's it's it's taking as much offense to

1515
01:21:18,640 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 1: like acts of evil that occur far away as the

1516
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 1: ones that happened like next door, because like everything like

1517
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 1: eventually it will. It's the same as like climate change, right,

1518
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:32,120
Speaker 1: it's it's like it's not being like oh well, fun California.

1519
01:21:32,680 --> 01:21:35,760
Speaker 1: I live up here in Washington State where climate change

1520
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:39,760
Speaker 1: will never hit us, or like, um right, yeah, this

1521
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 1: is the difficult thing about it, um, and it's it's

1522
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:45,280
Speaker 1: and I think it's even harder for people to grasp

1523
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:49,920
Speaker 1: um when it literally doesn't impact them at all. Yeah,

1524
01:21:50,360 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 1: they're I mean, the vast majority of people in any

1525
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:57,640
Speaker 1: coming or future genocide like rarely are they going to

1526
01:21:57,680 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: be directly impacted if face if they don't want to be,

1527
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 1: unless you are, of course the out party. But like

1528
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,760
Speaker 1: you know, a random guy in you know, Duluth, Minnesota,

1529
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:11,200
Speaker 1: like he's not going to be impacted by this. But

1530
01:22:11,920 --> 01:22:14,720
Speaker 1: the hard part and the the key for prevention is

1531
01:22:14,800 --> 01:22:17,719
Speaker 1: realizing that if you want to prevent this from happening,

1532
01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:21,080
Speaker 1: it needs to be made important to the point that

1533
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 1: people who literally cannot have no role in it can

1534
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,840
Speaker 1: make a role in it by stopping it. Um. Because

1535
01:22:30,080 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 1: Obviously these things are going to impact outgroups minorities, racial, ethnic, religious,

1536
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,720
Speaker 1: or otherwise. They're not They purposefully do not have a

1537
01:22:40,840 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 1: voice that can stop this from happening. Nope, that's why

1538
01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:50,959
Speaker 1: they're being targeted. Yeah, so uh rowan egg, get Rhonda Santis.

1539
01:22:52,000 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 1: It's the conclusion we've made here. Um or or Abbott,

1540
01:22:55,640 --> 01:22:59,559
Speaker 1: Abbott could use use an egg. That fucking guy give

1541
01:22:59,640 --> 01:23:03,479
Speaker 1: him an all good egging egg it out? Um like that?

1542
01:23:04,080 --> 01:23:07,679
Speaker 1: Like that kid in Australia. Um oh, I forgot about

1543
01:23:07,680 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 1: that kid. Kids. It was a good kid because when

1544
01:23:10,280 --> 01:23:12,800
Speaker 1: we find out he did something terrible immediately afterwards. I

1545
01:23:12,840 --> 01:23:14,639
Speaker 1: think he raised a bunch of money for some nice

1546
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,519
Speaker 1: cause people were paying attention to him. I don't know.

1547
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:24,559
Speaker 1: Hopefully someone's gonna be like, please don't milkshake duc that kid. Well, Joe,

1548
01:23:25,600 --> 01:23:26,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. How do you feel at the end

1549
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:29,479
Speaker 1: of this genocide? Yeah? Your a I'm you know, I'm

1550
01:23:29,479 --> 01:23:33,559
Speaker 1: going to be a centrist on this one. No one

1551
01:23:33,720 --> 01:23:36,920
Speaker 1: can say some people like genocide, some people dislike some

1552
01:23:37,040 --> 01:23:41,720
Speaker 1: people comm Yeah, we're going to compromise to everything that

1553
01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:44,479
Speaker 1: they've ever said. Um No, I mean I got into

1554
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:46,360
Speaker 1: this field because it's very important to me both in

1555
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:49,719
Speaker 1: my and in my history, and you know, in the future,

1556
01:23:50,360 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 1: it's it's something that's the history of These things are important.

1557
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:57,280
Speaker 1: So we can stop revisionism from coming and taking place,

1558
01:23:57,439 --> 01:23:59,519
Speaker 1: and also so we can help prevent it in the future,

1559
01:23:59,560 --> 01:24:02,360
Speaker 1: and hopefully we can make prevention something that is not

1560
01:24:02,600 --> 01:24:07,080
Speaker 1: like a weird thing to bring up. No, so go

1561
01:24:07,240 --> 01:24:11,000
Speaker 1: out and don't commit genocide. That's that's the key here.

1562
01:24:11,280 --> 01:24:13,920
Speaker 1: That is definitely there's a lot of debates as to

1563
01:24:14,000 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 1: how to prevent it, but don't do a genocide. We

1564
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:19,919
Speaker 1: ask that. That's the baseline we ask of our listeners

1565
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,280
Speaker 1: is please do not participate in an active genocide. Lower

1566
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:26,559
Speaker 1: in the bar here, Yeah, the bar is through the floor.

1567
01:24:30,360 --> 01:24:33,639
Speaker 1: Unlike some of our sponsors, including the Washington State Highway

1568
01:24:33,720 --> 01:24:37,080
Speaker 1: Patrol and funk those guys I used to live in Washington,

1569
01:24:37,240 --> 01:24:40,360
Speaker 1: hear the worst. We had a very funny one star

1570
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:42,400
Speaker 1: review of someone being like I thought I was gonna

1571
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:44,680
Speaker 1: love this podcast, but then they started talking about the

1572
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 1: Washington State Highway Patrol. I have to two relatives in

1573
01:24:48,040 --> 01:24:51,640
Speaker 1: the Highway Patrol, and they're both like wonderful men who

1574
01:24:51,680 --> 01:24:55,240
Speaker 1: are not violent at all. I would really like to

1575
01:24:55,320 --> 01:24:57,880
Speaker 1: believe that they listen to the Behind the Police series

1576
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:02,120
Speaker 1: like this sounds fun. Yeah, up until they were totally

1577
01:25:02,200 --> 01:25:04,680
Speaker 1: down with shooting on every other police department, and so

1578
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,479
Speaker 1: we got some when their cousin was in Yeah, yeah,

1579
01:25:07,600 --> 01:25:10,680
Speaker 1: funk the St. Louis Cole. Wait a second, we're the

1580
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:15,800
Speaker 1: good one. Yeah, bow t Highware and Fox. My my

1581
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:19,840
Speaker 1: cousins in the Washington State Highway Patrol aren't violent at all.

1582
01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 1: T shirt is bringing up a lot of questions answered

1583
01:25:23,280 --> 01:25:27,759
Speaker 1: by my I'm not a lot around their families anymore.

1584
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:31,160
Speaker 1: They're not allowed outside their house. It's weird anyway, Joe,

1585
01:25:31,200 --> 01:25:33,439
Speaker 1: you got any plug doubles? Have you ever done a

1586
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:38,200
Speaker 1: podcast before this happened in the world. I'm the host

1587
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:40,599
Speaker 1: of the Lines led by Donkeys podcast. We talked about

1588
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:44,680
Speaker 1: uh funk ups in military history. We also talk extensively

1589
01:25:44,720 --> 01:25:48,719
Speaker 1: about genocide specifically. We talked about it. We've talked about

1590
01:25:48,760 --> 01:25:51,760
Speaker 1: Nan King, We've talked about the Namibian genocide. We've talked

1591
01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:56,439
Speaker 1: for seven hours about the cambody in genocide. Uh. I

1592
01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:59,720
Speaker 1: promise it's not all that heavy. We do other stuff too.

1593
01:26:00,240 --> 01:26:01,840
Speaker 1: Now if you want that, then you're gonna have to

1594
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: go to the genocide cast, Uh With With with Rock

1595
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 1: and Robbie and Uh the Butt John Wilson, It's the

1596
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:15,080
Speaker 1: drivetime radio show. I was doing a radio but I

1597
01:26:15,160 --> 01:26:18,400
Speaker 1: didn't think it out very well. A Morning Zoo crew

1598
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 1: Morning that's just about well. It's six in the morning.

1599
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:25,160
Speaker 1: We got a lot of traffic blacked up on the

1600
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,600
Speaker 1: I five. You know what else got backed up on

1601
01:26:27,680 --> 01:26:34,880
Speaker 1: a highway. Good stuff all right? Episodes over Go Home

1602
01:26:37,920 --> 01:26:40,599
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1603
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1604
01:26:43,680 --> 01:26:46,600
Speaker 1: zone media dot com, or check us out on the

1605
01:26:46,720 --> 01:26:49,400
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1606
01:26:49,439 --> 01:26:50,080
Speaker 1: your podcasts.