1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,360 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: today's best minds. And one of the only true things 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: about George Santos is that he is now a sitting Congressman. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: We're easing back in from our vacation schedule and we 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: have a fantastic show for you today. Historians Kevin Cruz 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: and Julian Zelizer stopped by to talk about their fantastic 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: new book, myth America. We talked to Kathleen Blue, author 9 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: of Bring the War Home, the White Power Movement, and 10 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: Paramilitary America. But first we have the legendary democratic strategist 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: and Pod favorite James carve All. Welcome to Fast Politics. 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: James Carvall, Well you'd like to be here, Well, thank you. 13 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: I had to talk to you because it just was 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: like too insane. I mean, is this disarray? James Carville. 15 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: First thing was all the speculation of what the post 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: Trump Republican Party would look like. We now see it. 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: Welcome to the post Trump Republican body, which, if you 18 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: think about it, Trump made the adult in the rock unbelievable. 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,479 Speaker 1: These clowns start like Brent Scrollcroff but you know Jim Baker, 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,119 Speaker 1: who had come back in through the door again, Well, 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: guess what you know? And it's really funny, is you 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: see what the Democrats had a four vote majority and 23 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: what Nancy Pelosi did with it. Watched these people with 24 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: the majority. Didn't tell me which party is more discippline at, 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: which party is more organized? So McCarthy didn't have the votes. 26 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,319 Speaker 1: This morning, everyone went down to a basement together to 27 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: try to bully each other into getting the votes to Republicans. 28 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 1: They came up, they were even more piste at McCarthy. 29 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: They gave speeches. MATD. Gates is like, no way, Lauren Boberts. 30 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: She says, I will only do this if there's a 31 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: one person motion to vacate. Is there any historical precedent 32 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: for having a speakership that hinges on? One member of 33 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: your insane caucus came from fire in ninety three, and 34 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:16,840 Speaker 1: even I wasn't around at nineteen, the three may Not 35 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: party historian of the House. It's really amazing the disintegration 36 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: of the entire party. You know, we thought, I thought 37 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:27,799 Speaker 1: it just become like a personality code. But now Trump 38 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,119 Speaker 1: has gone in. I mean, he's done. I mean, it's 39 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm very comfortable talking about him in the past tense. 40 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 1: But there's no undepending of the Republican Party. And I 41 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 1: grew up in politics. They were for low attacks, is, 42 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: less regulation and strong national defense, and then it was 43 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: just always the default position. Doesn't even pretend that anymore. 44 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 1: A lot of a pro Russia in a sense that 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 1: a political adherents, of leaders of a political party and 46 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: its followers ascribed to some philosophical undepending other than just 47 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: rage and resentment. It's just where they are just a 48 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: back mean not I'm not giving you democratic talking points. 49 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: It's just everybody kind of knows it, even the Republicans 50 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: know it, but there's no way out of it. It 51 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: seems like the House is in it much worse than 52 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,080 Speaker 1: the Senate, like the House has. You know, they are 53 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: a cult of personality without the personality to some extent, 54 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: that's correct. And you know McConnell's has some lemporage from 55 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: just look at the fight with him and Rick Scott. Generally, 56 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: this has been a pretty well disciplined political party. I mean, 57 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: it was an old line that deals you heard it 58 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: when you were young. There's Democrats fall in love Republicans 59 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: fall in line. Well, I mean it's I think what's 60 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 1: happened is the party has just disintegrated at warp speed. 61 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: I just thought history had a kind of an arc. 62 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: You had these things that happened and in over a 63 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: period time, and it went like an eighty degrees down. 64 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: Didn't take much. But it does seem to me like 65 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: McCarthy had decided to do the vote without knowing they 66 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: had the votes. I mean that seems like an unforced error. 67 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: How could you not do the vote? You can't conduct 68 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: business without a speaker, right, you could wait until you 69 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: had the votes. I mean, if you don't have the votes, right, 70 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: do you know how long can you wait? Do you 71 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: think that these people are Andy Biggs are born both 72 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: but martually interested in policy. You know they're loving this. 73 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: I mean all they care about is somebody social media 74 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: follows that have much money there. Their fundraising is probably spiked. 75 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't even cross their mind. I mean, you definitely 76 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: are seeing Democrats look pretty good in this whole thing, right, 77 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: even if you have well, yeah, compared to that, right, 78 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,920 Speaker 1: I mean, but no, you have fractions. It's a big 79 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: tent party. You have people in the Democratic Party who 80 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: are more left and more right. Yeah, the Democrats are coalition, 81 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,440 Speaker 1: and you know coalitions can be uncomfortable, but they're not 82 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,160 Speaker 1: a coalition. It used to be had, you know, main 83 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: street Republicans, and you had national security Republicans, and you 84 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: had limited government Republicans, and you had low regulations. It's 85 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: none of that. It's all gone, that's all of the 86 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: past tests. You just have a party of just seating 87 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: resentment and that you've seen the result of it. Do 88 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:26,040 Speaker 1: you think that this is because Republicans have been too 89 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: interested in their base. It's a base obsession. You understand 90 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: what happened in the last election. Models would cause the 91 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: Republicans not to have the year that that everybody was 92 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: on fire saying they were going to have is Republicans. 93 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: I think that that like seven percent of self identified 94 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: Republicans voting Democratic with two of self identified Democrats voted Republicans. 95 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: And also, contrary to every historical president, there was independence 96 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,359 Speaker 1: broke for Democrats. That they're in a hamlet because they base, 97 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: they have to be fed a constant diet of stunts 98 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: and resentments. If you think about little republic policies become 99 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: it's just stunts they're sending migrants to Washington or Cape 100 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: Cod or whatever they sent them, and the slavery not teaching. Yeah, 101 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just one stunt after another. And the 102 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: problem with being a party of stunts, you have to 103 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: keep pulling off stunts. People need more. Then you run 104 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 1: out of ideas, so you just keep doing crazy shit. 105 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: It's just it's what it is. There's nothing at the 106 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: bottom of the whole thing that that's my point. Yeah, no, 107 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,320 Speaker 1: I mean I think that's right. And like in Republicans 108 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: decided not to have a policy platform, and that the 109 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 1: policy platform was Trump, I mean, right, and from there 110 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:51,400 Speaker 1: they went from once, you know, denying the election of 111 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 1: January six. You know, this is the January the Third 112 00:06:55,600 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 1: insurrection that we're watching right now. It's true it's non violent, 113 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: but it's still violent. Really, right, there's no place they 114 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: can go that they all kind of have some ideological commonality. 115 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: There's just none of that anymore. I don't even know. 116 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: I'm party of scholar Republican Party, but you know, you 117 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: would have all this Ross Dohart and Brett Stevens and 118 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 1: you know, the post Republican Party, Well you got it. 119 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: But so here's a question. I mean, they can just 120 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: keep voting forever. I mean, they can just keep voting 121 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: until enough people fall out so that theoretically someone gets 122 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:43,400 Speaker 1: a speaker. I mean there's another scenario where McCarthy doesn't 123 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: get it. I mean it seems like right now, McCarthy 124 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: and you had Marjorie Taylor Green. Yeah, she's the moderate, right, 125 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: she's whipping the vote the Jewish space lasers woman. That's right. 126 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: We choose a very powerful and Jim Jordan's also is 127 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: whipping votes for McCarthy. Here's a man who think eight 128 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: Ohio state wrestlers said he knew exactly what was going 129 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: on there would being molested. I mean really, I mean 130 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: Lauren Bobert Google Lauren met Jason right, well, no, and 131 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Lauren Bobert, who barely won her re election she won 132 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: by seven hundred points. I mean, when she's just enraged 133 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: at McCarthy. But here's a question for you. Here's this House. 134 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: It's a very slim majority they won by winning these 135 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: kind of purple e districts. If Republicans were focused, which 136 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: I don't think they are, on re election, on keeping 137 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: the House, they would need to do popular legislation. But 138 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: they don't have any popular legislation. Think of George Santos. 139 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: All right, you're Jewish, I'm Catholic. We don't we're not 140 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: very much into God having kind of coded messengers. But 141 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: the evangelical say, you know, James, God works in mysterious ways, 142 00:08:54,920 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: and he sends messengers periodically to express his displeasure. And 143 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 1: I think that God, you gotta be understand. Maybe they're right, 144 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: and maybe God wanted to just demonstrate the other rot 145 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 1: that's a modern Republican party has become, and his messager 146 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: was George Santos. Who a human could not think of 147 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: a more perfect reflection of what that party has become 148 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: than George Santos. Maybe they're right. You got to admit 149 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: he's a messenger from some kind of divine origin because 150 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: a human couldn't make him up. I think that's right. 151 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: I mean, we don't even know if his real name 152 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: is George Santos. I've seen it reporting that says he 153 00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: doesn't want to be called by that name. I don't know. 154 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: I don't even know if he knows. I don't think 155 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 1: that's his purpose. I think his purpose is to just 156 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: demonstrate what this whole thing has become. He is. He 157 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: is the perfect modern Republican. Yeah, there really is no 158 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,560 Speaker 1: I think so too. So now we are in this 159 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: Republican party, what should Democrats be doing right now? Well, 160 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: the House semocrosses, but exactly they should be joined to 161 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: vote for hockey. They have a four vote majority. I 162 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,080 Speaker 1: don't think there's much legislatively that we're gonna be able 163 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: to get done. I would continue to support Ukraine with 164 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: everything that we got. I think that's utterly essential. And 165 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: there's one great form as opportunity we've had and got 166 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: news lin And how are you going to get into 167 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: the headlines if they have to give up? You have 168 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: a motion to vacate the speakership. But understand what that means. 169 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: At any time five Republicans can get rid of the 170 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: speak of on a on a limb because all the 171 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: Democrats will go on with it. This is just keep 172 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 1: poor and keressing because they keep playing with matches. I mean, 173 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 1: do you think there's a world in which these few 174 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: moderates who want to get re elected go and you 175 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: know eventually put themselves together with the McCarthy is not 176 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: going to win the second vote. There's already seventy eight mccauthy, certified, 177 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: Jeffers ten others. So un thus they change. Now what 178 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: they can do as you watching this is they can't 179 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: abstain because you need a majority of those voting. You 180 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: don't need to a team. So I'm just watching. Actually 181 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: I'm watching box because I figure if there's any breaking 182 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: news and get it first, it's true. So we're gonna 183 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: watch this. This is going to come out tomorrow. We're 184 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: gonna have either a McCarthy speakership or a more likely 185 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 1: protracted speakership. Battle that goes on. But nobody can do 186 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: anything until there is a House speaker. But they can 187 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,960 Speaker 1: do anything anyway. It's gonna pass anything that's gonna pask 188 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: this in it. So at least we get some entertainment 189 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: out of doing nothing. It gives us something to do 190 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: and I can keep the screen. Note I don't even 191 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: need sound. So you think ultimately this is a popcorn 192 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 1: situation for all parties involved. I think popcorn connotes that 193 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,479 Speaker 1: that you enjoying it. I'm not sure that professional Republicans 194 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: are terribly enjoying this. Now they're not. We are in 195 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 1: this one eight in the Congress. They will eventually have 196 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: to deal with I guess they won't have to deal 197 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: with the debt ceiling for a year, right, I think 198 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: it's September, but I'm not sure. Yeah, So, I mean, ultimately, 199 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: for now they can just fight with each other. They're 200 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: not compasses anything that will pass the Senate. They're not 201 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: compass to anything that's going to get the president signature. 202 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, of course they can negotiate continuing 203 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: resolutions and things like that, because you know, and you've 204 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: got I think it's eighteen and don't hold me to 205 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: the exact thing Republicans who represented districts at Biden carried. 206 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: My guess is, and I'm not a very good seer 207 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: or prognosticative future polls, but I think the image of 208 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: the party is going to have to take a hit 209 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: here after whatever happens after this, and some of these 210 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: people start addictioning them, and they'll start alignment in, pointing 211 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: fingers and saying it's not my father's fo that's gonna happen. 212 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: You were a big part of Clinton world. Are you 213 00:12:56,000 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: surprised that there's been so much bipartisan legislatation over the 214 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: last two years. I'm surprised that people don't realize how 215 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 1: much it is. But yeah, there has been and let 216 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: me say this present Clinton Obama. They came in with 217 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: huge majorities, right, I think they did some some remarkable 218 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: things that. Don't get me wrong. What's happened here in 219 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: the Biden would hardly be any majority to speak of, 220 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: is pretty remarkable. And there is a certain segment of 221 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: the Republicans that kind of like doing things, but they're 222 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,599 Speaker 1: not many of them in the House. I think that 223 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 1: bipartisanship is pretty interesting and almost surprising, you know that. 224 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: You know, we've seen an infrastructure bell, We've seen all 225 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: of this, even like the Chips legislation, good claim funding, right, 226 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: defensive marriage. I mean yes, but that remember Democrats had 227 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: a four boat majority and you could you know, some 228 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 1: Republican sences wanted to go along with that. That's not 229 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: the way the world exists now, right, It'll be interesting 230 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:02,880 Speaker 1: to see. So last here we are, we'll see how 231 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,599 Speaker 1: it plays out. I'm not going to ask you to 232 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: predict something in knocus. When's the last time you remember 233 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: a knockdown, drag out fight for a party chair even 234 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: the last time you even remember an election for a 235 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: party chair? All Right, they're like killing each other over that, right, Well, 236 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: the RNC chair. I mean you've got RONA. McDaniel and 237 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: and then my pillow guy is running and as somebody else. Yeah, no, 238 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting to me that they've lost three 239 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: elections with Trump and they're blaming everyone but Trump. They're 240 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: just as stupid as they ever been. I've said it before, 241 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, I would say it again. Maybe their problem 242 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: is they have low quality voters, and low quality voters 243 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: are going to produce low quality people that are going 244 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: to produce low quality events. Maybe that's the problem. I'm serious. 245 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: They are not quality people that are deciding who the 246 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: candidates are. I'm sorry. So you think that ultimately Republicans 247 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: have a low quality voter problem. I think Darian is 248 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: the bug and in the process take stoopid people that 249 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: voted their primary James carve Al, thank you so much 250 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: for joining us. All right, okay, come back soon. Julian 251 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: Zelazer and Kevin Cruz are the authors of myth America. 252 00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: Historians take on the biggest legends and lies about our past. 253 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: Welcome too Fast Politics, Julianne and soon to be Kevin. 254 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 1: It's great to be with you. Nice to speak, so 255 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: talk to us about this book. You know, Kevin and 256 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: I both have been following all the changes that take 257 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: place in politics and the media, and both of us 258 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: were struck by how many things you hear about the 259 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: past that just don't really fit with what historians have 260 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: to say. So we just wanted to bring together a 261 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 1: group of really good academic historians right well to write 262 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: punchy short essays, tacklely and some of the myths that 263 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: are so pervasive in our debates that influence how we 264 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: deal with politics today. I want to know how you 265 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: guys decided that you needed to write this book because 266 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 1: there's so much misinformation disinformation. Give me the story of 267 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: what happened, because I feel like there's a great story 268 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: of like a Ben Shapiro tweet or something, well, probably 269 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: a million of them actually. I mean we had written 270 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 1: another book together, you know, more of a full book 271 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: that that's become a textbook about the US since nine four, 272 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: so called fault Lines, and we had worked on that, 273 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: and then it was the year before the pandemic. I 274 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 1: don't think there was a single tweet. I just thought 275 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: there was a lot going on already in terms of 276 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: what's happened in in the classroom and how you teach 277 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: about race. There are so many arguments about government not 278 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: working that we heard all the time, or that you'd 279 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: see social media commentary on that. Both of us said, 280 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: this is just ridiculous. Why not actually bring people who 281 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 1: study this stuff and know about this stuff and have 282 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: them chime in. We're gonna have a big conference, but 283 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: we couldn't because it all happened right when COVID hit. 284 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: So we just we did it virtually. Hike Kevin, Hey, 285 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: how you doing good? So we're talking about the book. 286 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: It's called myth America Historians take on the biggest legends 287 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: and lies about our past. What were the things where 288 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: you like, we're going to have to put this in 289 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: the book. This kind of started out of Twitter, right, Yeah. 290 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: For me, it was the Southern strategy. So for years 291 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: on Twitter, I've been pushing back against people, first Kanye 292 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 1: West and then teness Ta SUSA and the whole host 293 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: of others who somehow leaning into this idea that the 294 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: South and strategy, which has been kind of a mainstay 295 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: of American political history for decades now, was an invention 296 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: of liberals and a recent invention of liberals and something 297 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: they just made up hull cloth. So it was a 298 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: bizarre claim they made. And I started to push back 299 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: on this on Twitter with threats, and as I did, 300 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: I kept thinking, why, I know some giant books on this. 301 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,640 Speaker 1: There's a book by Merle Black and Earl Black called 302 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: The Rise of Southern Republicans, which is great, but it's 303 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's a brick. It's it's not a 304 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 1: book you I would you know, casually recommend anyone. And 305 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: I thought, well, somebody needs to write kind of a 306 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: short version of this that that I can assign. And 307 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,200 Speaker 1: and like any professor who wishes someone had written the 308 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: reading we want to assign, I just wound up right now. 309 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: So that was the starting point for me. And Julian 310 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,399 Speaker 1: had done stuff on the Reagan Revolution, so that was 311 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 1: a natural one for him. And then we looked around 312 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,879 Speaker 1: and thought, okay, we're doing this stuff on social media 313 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: and OpEd and places like that. Who else is doing 314 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: this right? And so some of the other contemporary debates 315 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: about white backlash, about the insurrection, about voting right, about 316 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: Confederate the more reels, you know, there were a bunch 317 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: that came us came to us pretty quickly. Uh, and 318 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: and it seemed a run off the bat that we 319 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: had a pretty good core group here. The hardest part 320 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: for us, i'd say, was limiting this. You know, we 321 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: could have gotten fifty sixty historians to do essays here. Um, 322 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: we had to kind of pick and choose of what 323 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: we wanted to do and the other if I could 324 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: just jump in Molly. The other thing was that there 325 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: were all these really interesting historians who were, you know, 326 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: trying their hand in the public realm through either Twitter 327 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: or other forms of social media. And obviously at some 328 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: level that's limited in terms of how much you can say. 329 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: Part of what Kevin and I wanted to do was 330 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,560 Speaker 1: turned back to the traditional way we tell our stories 331 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: and make our arguments. Give these authors a little more 332 00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: room to expand on things that had really you know, 333 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: popped on social media. Uh, and to put it all 334 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: together in in this book. What is the stupidest thing 335 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 1: you've had to debunk? Well? For me, I mean, look, 336 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: I have a pet peeve. I I don't mind debates 337 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: about it if it's good to have government intervention or not, 338 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: and people have different perspectives, but I can't take when 339 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: you hear over and over again how government is just 340 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: a constant failure. And you always hear this about the 341 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: Great Society, how it was catastrophic, it had unintended effects, 342 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: didn't really do what it was supposed to do. Same 343 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: with the New Deal, and that just doesn't square with 344 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:29,359 Speaker 1: everything we know from our best historians. And so I 345 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: was very excited when we were able to include two 346 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: essays that by um Eric Rauchway and Josh Zites that 347 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: really just show this is it's not true. And if 348 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: you're going to have the debate, have the debate on 349 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: real terms, uh, not on this false notion that these 350 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,880 Speaker 1: programs have no impact. Kevin, what about you? Yeah, those 351 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: are the two big ones. Uh. I think I always 352 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: laugh at people who argue with the New Deal was 353 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 1: a colossal failure, which explains why FDR was elected four times. 354 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: I mean, for me personally, the stupidest one. And this 355 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:04,680 Speaker 1: is why I feel like my essay is the least 356 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 1: imaginative one in the entire collection. I think because I 357 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: am simply responding to people who are saying, Nah, this 358 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: thing didn't happen, and I have to kind of patiently 359 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: go through and say, look, it really did. So it's 360 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: just mine is really just a matter of correcting the record. 361 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 1: So that's about as stupid as it gets that people 362 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: are denying that these basic facts actually happened. Yeah, that 363 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: is a pretty interesting and also quite stupid. Is this 364 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: the book you want to read so that you can 365 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: go to Christmas with your conservative relatives? Yeah, I mean, 366 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's that's why we designed it. 367 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: You know, these are common myths that are out there 368 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 1: in the public sphere, and a lot of people have 369 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time spreading these falsehoods, whether they 370 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: know their falseness or not. There's a big push to 371 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: get these ideas out there and and books and movies 372 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: and and and certainly on social media in the web, 373 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: and so people are gonna encounter these things. And just 374 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: like all of us involved in in the you have 375 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:02,399 Speaker 1: done Twitter threads to help people. You know, we're not 376 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: trying to convince the people were arguing against. They're investing 377 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,639 Speaker 1: in guests. But there are people on the sidelines they 378 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: don't know any better, who hear someone say, oh, you know, 379 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 1: the Great Society was a total failure, or or oh 380 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: feminism was anti family, and and and whether they haven't 381 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: heard anything pushed back, and these are gonna be convenient, 382 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 1: small chapters that are gonna be designed to be read 383 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: easily by anyone who's not an expert, but who just 384 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,159 Speaker 1: wants to know the facts. And this is important stuff. 385 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: I mean, we have one by Carol Anderson on voting 386 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:32,640 Speaker 1: fraud who really shows that a lot of this argument 387 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: which has big impact. I mean, it's been the basis 388 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: of this idea. This idea there's massive voting fraud been 389 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: the basis of of the election denialism and the effort 390 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 1: to overthrow the election. And she just writes a really 391 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: good piece both debunking that but also showing where the 392 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,720 Speaker 1: idea came from and how it's been deployed for decades, 393 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 1: really going back through century to undercut voting rights. It's 394 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: not simply con servative relatives. I think it's liberal, moderate relatives. 395 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 1: Our goal is to push back against the disinformation era 396 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: and simply be at these parties or be at dinners 397 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 1: or wherever you are, and just have uh debates that 398 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: are based on what we know about history rather than 399 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: what we're just fabricating about the past. Do you think 400 00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: that you know some of these misconceptions are rooted in 401 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: ignorance or dishonesty. I think both. They're clearly people out 402 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,400 Speaker 1: there who know what they are saying has been either 403 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: disputed or they didn't even believe it to begin with. 404 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 1: And I think there are bad actors out there who 405 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: really don't care if it's true or not. And when 406 00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: they know something's not true, they're still putting it out 407 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: there because it serves political purposes and it's not really history, 408 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: that's just pure propaganda. But I do think there are 409 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: many other people I don't know. I meet them all 410 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: the time at these parties we're talking about or dinner, 411 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: have heard stuff, and and they've heard these arguments about history. 412 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,880 Speaker 1: And there's so much out there right now that it's 413 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: easy for people who are well intentioned to start saying 414 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: things that are really at odds with what historians have 415 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: worked on. I think you see this all the time 416 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 1: in the debates about critical race theory and how to study, 417 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: um the role of race in American history. A lot 418 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: of what's being argued is it's actually kind of conventional 419 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: at this point. You've had three or four decades where 420 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 1: historians have been uncovering the different ways in which race 421 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: has impacted so many elements of American society from Slavery forward. 422 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: But sometimes if you if you look or hear from people, 423 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: they're acting that this is some novel, radical idea that's 424 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: just being thrown out into the public sphere with no basis. 425 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: But that's just not the case. And so I think 426 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: it's a mix. It's it's dishonest players, but also people 427 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: who have law some sense of where the historical research 428 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: actually is. Yeah, and that's I think that's a key point, 429 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: because it ultimately doesn't matter, right whether or not these 430 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: lies are being intentionally spread or whether they're being spread 431 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 1: by people who don't know any better. There's something spread, right, 432 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: They're still out there, and so we've got a duty 433 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: to push back on them. That's really quite interesting and 434 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: I think important. Is there anything that's surprising in this book? Well, 435 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: I mean it depends. I mean, because we wouldn't find 436 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: it surprising. I think historians probably wun't find it surprising. 437 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: There are a couple of things. I think We've got 438 00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: a couple of pieces that are I think are going 439 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: to be important and maybe push the envelope even for historian. 440 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: So Larry Glickman has a great piece on the white 441 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: backlash and this is a phrase that a lot of us, 442 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: myself included, have used unquestionably, and what Larry shows is 443 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: that concept fundamentally gets it wrong. Right. It presents the 444 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: actions of the supposed backlash community. It's reactive. They didn't 445 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: start anything, They're simply responding. They don't have agency. It 446 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: just sort of happens, right. And so what Larry's esse 447 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: he does is I think in a force not just 448 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: lay readers, but historians too, to rethink that. That said, 449 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the other stuff in here is very 450 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,680 Speaker 1: conventional for historians. Again, the stuff I have on the 451 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: Southern Strategy, the stuff on the New Deal, the Great Society, 452 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: the Reagan Revolution, these are all very conventional things for historians, 453 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,159 Speaker 1: but it seems like it's become a little more muddied 454 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,360 Speaker 1: in the public. So I think what surprises people will 455 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: largely depend on what they're bringing to the book to 456 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,400 Speaker 1: begin with. So some things may surprise you, some things 457 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: may may shock you. When I did the Southern Strategy piece, 458 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: I found details of the story I hadn't even known before, 459 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: so so I I guess I learned some stuff even 460 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: writing it. So maybe everyone will find something in here 461 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: to to be surprised about. And a couple of others 462 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 1: I just throw out there. I think Kevin is a 463 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: h pcent right, but a couple of others that I 464 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: think come out in nice ways, in surprising ways. So 465 00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: we have one essay called the Border by Jerry Katava, 466 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,880 Speaker 1: and he argues that the border which we all think 467 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: of is now it's become the image of a dangerous area, 468 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: of a fraud area. These areas of the country also 469 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,480 Speaker 1: are often quite vibrant. There's all kinds of interesting elements 470 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: of community of commerce in these border towns, and I 471 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: think the essay really challenges a fundamental myth that is 472 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 1: at the basis of a lot of anti immigration rhetoric. 473 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 1: But the essay won't be the border that most people 474 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: are thinking of. And Michael Kaysen, another great historian, has 475 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,520 Speaker 1: a provocative piece about the ways in which socialism hasn't 476 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 1: actually been absent from American political life, but it's it's 477 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: been here for a long time, and it's impacted ideas 478 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: that have been absorbed sometimes by the mainstream party. So 479 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: I think there's some surprises there that will at least 480 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: force people to rethink a little of how how they 481 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 1: look backwards in time. So interesting. Thanks to you guys 482 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: for coming on our pleasure, Thanks for having us, Thanks 483 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: for having us. I know you, our dear listeners, are 484 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: very busy and you don't have time to sort through 485 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 1: the hundreds of pieces of pundentry each week. This is 486 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: why every week I put together a newsletter of my 487 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,600 Speaker 1: five favorite articles on politics. If you enjoy the podcast, 488 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: you will love having this in your inbox every Friday. 489 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,639 Speaker 1: So sign up at Fast Politics pod dot com and 490 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: click the tab to join our mailing list. That's Fast 491 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: politics pod dot com. Is the author of Bring the 492 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: War Home, the White Power Movement, and Paramilitary America. Welcome 493 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Kathleen, Thank you very much for having me. 494 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: Let's first talk about this and the title I think 495 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 1: is amazing to this crunchy to all to right pipeline. 496 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: The Popolos suspect may fall on that continuum, right, I 497 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: think that's right. I think there's also a good chance 498 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: that some of that is going on in the club 499 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: queue shooting and Colorado springs, although it's still early days 500 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,600 Speaker 1: and getting details on either of those cases. But what 501 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: we're talking about in this piece, and let me preface 502 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: this by saying that all right should always go in 503 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: quotation marks. It's a term that's somewhat outdated, but it 504 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: is how it has entered our cultural conversation. So here 505 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 1: we are with all right, and we can talk more 506 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: about that. But the question is sort of about whether 507 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: instead of existing on a political continuum that is a 508 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: straight line that goes left, right, center or excuse me, left, center, right, 509 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: where the left is say stalinist Russia, the middle is 510 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: the United States, and the right is Germany in World 511 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,239 Speaker 1: War Two, what if we think of it more as 512 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: a circle where the left and the right extremes actually 513 00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: often have much more in common with each other than 514 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: they do with the center right. Yeah, sort of, I 515 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 1: have some you know, I'm a historian, so I have 516 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: um some itchiness about horseshoe theory because I think horse 517 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: shoe theory does a good job of showing how close 518 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: the ends of the spectrum are to each other, but 519 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 1: doesn't account for overlap. And what I see in the 520 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: archive is actually quite a bit of overlap. So I'm 521 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: a historian of the white power movement. My focus in 522 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: my first book was about the eighties, seventies, eighties, and 523 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:20,800 Speaker 1: nineties and what you see in publications by skinhead groups, 524 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: clan groups, militia groups, and particularly in women's publications are 525 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of social issues that we usually think 526 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: of as leftist, like macrobiotic diet and organic gardening. Um, 527 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: you know, in the seventies organic gardening mid with free 528 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,719 Speaker 1: paganism back to the Land. So it's it's an interesting 529 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 1: thing to see this sort of crossover space. Oh, that 530 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: is interesting, and it makes sense because like people like 531 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 1: Alex Jones, you know, he's a survivalist too exactly, And 532 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: there are some, you know, real time examples of people 533 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: who used to be in the occupy movement and have 534 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,080 Speaker 1: now taken root in the militant right. I think the 535 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: directional movement is less often the other direction, but it 536 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: does also happen. And although these social issues means something 537 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: very different in each space, they are an area of 538 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,479 Speaker 1: possible recruitment. Now I should also just clear the air 539 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: a little bit. There was some concern by a few 540 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 1: people who wrote to me after the Atlantic piece about 541 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: this that I did, who were worried about like, are 542 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 1: you calling all of the survivalist or back to the 543 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: land left Nazis And no, I'm certainly not. What we 544 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: are doing, though, is paying attention because this is an 545 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: opportunistic white power and militant right movement. It is interested 546 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: in any open window that it can exploit for its 547 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,120 Speaker 1: own purposes, and this is one of the ones that 548 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: we should be paying attention to. I want to get 549 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: back to this idea that there's sort of a connection 550 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: between this sort of like left and right. Just can 551 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 1: you go back historically and just sort of talk me 552 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: through like where this started. I mean, because you were 553 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: starting that and I sort of interrupted to, oh, no worries, Yes, sure. 554 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 1: In my work, I'm looking at just the white power 555 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: movement forward. So really we're talking about a movement that 556 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: brought together previously dispersed far right groups in the late 557 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies into one movement, oriented them against the federal 558 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: government and other parts of the state, and has been 559 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: sort of engaged in the militant asymmetrical war on the 560 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: United States since then. So that's what I refer to 561 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 1: as the white power movement. It has included clan groups, 562 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: neo Nazi groups, militias, some militia's not all militias, um 563 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: skinheads and tax resistor groups, and several others. But if 564 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: we're thinking about the interface with sort of crunchy left 565 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 1: and survivalist right, I think we can trace it back 566 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,400 Speaker 1: a great deal further than that. I mean, the Nazi 567 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:58,240 Speaker 1: Party was very the land classically and right, and several 568 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: environmental groups in the United States, like the Sierra Club 569 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 1: have long histories of being being involved with eugenics and 570 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: projects centered on whiteness in the United States. So interesting 571 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: anti vactors are a new group or are they? Were 572 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: they always a group, because there have been you know, 573 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: viruses and plagues and things like that throughout history. But 574 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: it strikes me that the most recent sort of left 575 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: to right conversion is the COVID vaccine. I think so. 576 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: And I think that that, um, it's something that I 577 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: noticed just casually in Facebook groups even before that, around 578 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: childhood vaccinations more broadly, and you get a sort of 579 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:48,720 Speaker 1: leftist crunchy discourse about spacing out childhood vaccinations or researching 580 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: particular kinds of additives to childhood vaccinations and doing so 581 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: often in in very little relation to scientific evidence. On 582 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: the left that has to you with like fear of 583 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: chemicals and fear of toxicity, I think. And then on 584 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: the right, we see that mobilized more as fear of 585 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 1: the state, fear of conspiracy, fear of nefarious plots to 586 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: control people. That one feels to me very much like 587 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: how people talked about fluoride, the chemical added to water 588 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: to reduce dental decay in children, and the right has 589 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 1: been very worried about fluoride for conspiracy reasons since at 590 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 1: least the John Birch Society and the left has been 591 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: worried about it, mostly because of toxicity. Yeah, both parties 592 00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: are united by moronics. I mean, I feel like there's 593 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,239 Speaker 1: a temptation to always say that it's worse now, that 594 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: things are worse now. Are things worse now or do 595 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: you think this is just sort of cyclical? Well, worse 596 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: is an interesting question because I think when we're talking 597 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: about sort of cultural overlap, some of it is perfectly harmless. 598 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 1: Some of it is simply, you know, people who have 599 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: very different political ideas but do share something else in common, 600 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: which I don't know in most contact, I think is 601 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: very good for our society. The problem is when, first 602 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: of all, when the white power mobilization of these issues 603 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: is attached to other recruitment actions, which it is very 604 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: heavily right now, and when we're in the middle of 605 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,359 Speaker 1: sort of an upsurge in activity, So this seems quite innocuous, 606 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:21,879 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, vaccination is when we can see 607 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: the obvious harm. But things like you know, choosing a 608 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: midwife instead of a doctor, that is perfectly valid decision 609 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: that a whole lot of people make for totally benign 610 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: reasons and often in in a perfectly reasonable critique of 611 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: our health care system, and it can be a gateway 612 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:42,000 Speaker 1: to exposure to some of these activists. So the problem 613 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: isn't choosing a midwife. The problem is coordinated efforts by 614 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: white power groups to use interest in midwif free to 615 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: recruit people into a movement that is in fact interested 616 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: in extremely violent outcomes um including attacks on democracy, a 617 00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 1: tax on targeted communities, and attacks on several other sorts 618 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: of infrastructure targets. So we have to read this whole 619 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: sort of I mean, this came up in the new 620 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: cycle this time because of a TikTok debate, you know, 621 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: which is I mean, it's hard to think of something 622 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: that feels less consequential than a TikTok feud, right right, 623 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: But we have to read it connected to all of 624 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,560 Speaker 1: the other benchmarks of mobilization like January six, Proud Boys 625 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 1: showing up at local school board races, like the attacks 626 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 1: on lgbt s Q story our possibly the North Carolina 627 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 1: infrastructure attack, although I think we're still early days there 628 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: and finding out exactly what happened. But there's a lot 629 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: of other activity right now right now, the speculation on 630 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:44,840 Speaker 1: North Carolina. Can you just explain to our listeners what 631 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: what this is all speculative right now, but just explain 632 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: what it is. Yes, I'll tell you why. I have 633 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 1: my eyebrow raised proverbally as a historian, which is, the 634 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: White Power movement has been interested in infrastructure attacks since 635 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:04,160 Speaker 1: the nineteen ease and has mobilized successfully to carry out 636 00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: cell style terrorist attacks on infrastructure targets, both attempted attacks 637 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: and real ones for decades. So this is something they've 638 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: talked about a lot um. That's piece of information a 639 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,800 Speaker 1: um piece of information. B is that it's also something 640 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: that comes up in books like the Turner Diaries, which 641 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: is a novel that is also the manual of operations 642 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: for the movement. So we have a record of them 643 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: hitting or attempting to hit targets like gas lines, dams 644 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: and water installations, water storage, power plants, nuclear plants. The 645 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 1: list goes on. Most of these things didn't happen, but 646 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,480 Speaker 1: we have an archive of attempts that we have to 647 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,799 Speaker 1: look at next to the archive of successes. And then 648 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: piece of information see is the nature of this particular outage. 649 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: So the fact that it was power stations hit by 650 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 1: gunfire they found I think I read something about, you know, 651 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 1: many rounds of ammunition from a high powered rifle, assault rifle. 652 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: I think I read at each of the sites, and 653 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: the fact that they haven't come out and said like, oh, 654 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: vandalism or you know, something of that nature, but have 655 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 1: instead called in the FBI and a t F. All 656 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 1: of that together means that something is going on. So 657 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what the something is. There are certainly 658 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: other people who might have an interest in damaging the 659 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: power grid, but I know that this is a strategy 660 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 1: that is part of sort of the playbook of the 661 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: white power movement. So interesting, do you want to talk 662 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: to me about this hearing in two thousand nineteen because 663 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: Candace Owens is such an interesting Oh yeah, I sort 664 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: of don't even know what to make of her. Yeah, 665 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I know what she is, but I mean 666 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like what historical Is there a place 667 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,760 Speaker 1: for her and his? Is there a sort of historical 668 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: yeah reference for this? Oh sure? I mean, you know, 669 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,480 Speaker 1: I think she's a professional political operative who has her 670 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: own very specific agenda instead of talking points that often 671 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,880 Speaker 1: is very little to do with what I would classify 672 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: as factually based or the problem at hand. So I 673 00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 1: think in that hearing, it's one of several examples of 674 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: not having the conversation we need to have desperately about 675 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: a real problem that has a real body count attached. 676 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,759 Speaker 1: So you know, not everyone wants to have that conversation. 677 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: She's hardly alone there. The GOP has also diverted attention 678 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:27,719 Speaker 1: from this in all kinds of different ways, ranging from 679 00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: the early days, you know, sending around talking points memos 680 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: about how the El Paso shooter we should talk about 681 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: it as mental health rather than my power, yeah, all 682 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: the way up to much more open embrace of these tactics, 683 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: and especially in the late Trump administration. So you know, 684 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: again we're talking about a continuum of not confronting the problem. 685 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean, far be it from me to talk about intentionality. 686 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: Maybe if we were to take her at her word, 687 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: she was simply saying that there are other problems that 688 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,120 Speaker 1: impact the black community more. I mean, I think there 689 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,320 Speaker 1: are ways that that's correct. There are big systemic problems 690 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: that we have to deal with in this country. But 691 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: what she's frankly, just very very wrong about is that 692 00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:11,400 Speaker 1: this is also one of them, and it's impacting the 693 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: Black community. It's impacting the Jewish community, is impacting the 694 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: Latino community, immigrant communities, and it's now impacting our ability 695 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: to hold free elections and have a democratic process. So 696 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: I think it is a huge problem. I want to 697 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: talk to you about the Buffalo shooter. I mean that 698 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: was a white nationalist, yes, shooting, right? Can you talk 699 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: to us about that? Sure. So one of the things 700 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 1: to understand about the white power movement is that it 701 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,400 Speaker 1: has since used a strategy called leaderless resistance, which is 702 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: simply cell style terrorism. The idea is that one or 703 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:51,960 Speaker 1: a few people can act in coordination and with impact 704 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: from leadership, but without demonstrable ties to leaders or to 705 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:02,000 Speaker 1: other cells. So this is a strategy imagined to sort 706 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,560 Speaker 1: of foil the ability of FBI agents to infiltrate groups, 707 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: which had been a big problem in the civil rights 708 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: era and to make it harder to prosecute right. But 709 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: the bigger impact is that we have as a society 710 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 1: have sort of bought this up as the way we 711 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: understand this kind of violence. So we get over and 712 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 1: over again stories about lone wolves, right, the lone wolf shooter, 713 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: the loan shooter, the loan terrorist. There are individual acts 714 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: of violence in our country. There are all kinds of 715 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 1: mass shootings, and this is only one subset, right, But 716 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 1: when it is a white nationalist action, it should never 717 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,360 Speaker 1: be treated as a lone wolf act because it is networked, 718 00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: it is ideological, and it's connected to other acts of violence. 719 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,640 Speaker 1: So this lone wolf thing is how we get stories 720 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: about Buffalo as an anti black shooting, the Tree of 721 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 1: Life as an anti Jewish shooting, El Paso as an 722 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: anti Latino shooting, christ churches, and anti Islamic shooting. We 723 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,040 Speaker 1: can go on and on. There's a lot of these, 724 00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:01,279 Speaker 1: and they are are all of those things. And of 725 00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,319 Speaker 1: course there are specific histories of anti Semitism and anti 726 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: black violence, and we can go on, right, but they're 727 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: all also carried out by white power gunmen using the 728 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:15,879 Speaker 1: ideology of this movement. So, for instance, in Buffalo, there 729 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: was a manifesto, which I don't recommend people go and 730 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,080 Speaker 1: try to read and parse because we can leave that 731 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: to people who study those kinds of documents. But if 732 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,280 Speaker 1: you take that manifesto and run it through a plagiarism software, 733 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: which I have as a professor, it's largely just cut 734 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: and pasted from the christ Church manifesto. So these are 735 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: actions that share not only sort of like target selection, 736 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: but they share tactical information, they share ideological information, and 737 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,960 Speaker 1: often they have social network ties with other people in 738 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: the movement. So interesting, if you're talking to a legislator, 739 00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,040 Speaker 1: what would you tell them is sort of the first 740 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:56,960 Speaker 1: thing they need to get going on to to slow 741 00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: this down? Yeah, I mean this is now well, So 742 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: the first thing I would say is there is some 743 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:06,520 Speaker 1: good news about that part. I think that our surveillance 744 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 1: agencies have really changed their posture around the problem of 745 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,959 Speaker 1: white power and militant right violence. They have now said 746 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: that this is the biggest domestic terror threat to the country. 747 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: That means that all of the resources that come with 748 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,799 Speaker 1: that designation are pointed in the appropriate direction right until 749 00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: there's a Republican president, right exactly. That's until there's a 750 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: Republican president. But the thing is that we are incredibly 751 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: late in doing that. As I said, this has been 752 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: a massing momentum since the late nineteen seventies with very 753 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,800 Speaker 1: little stop. This is the movement that bombed the Oklahoma 754 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: City Federal building. And we should all pause and remember 755 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: that after that militia activity increased, it didn't decrease. Just 756 00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,359 Speaker 1: like Elon owning, Twitter brought out more hate speech. I mean, 757 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: they take every victory as a larger victory. Yeah, exactly. 758 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: It's been gaining moment them. So the time is really 759 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: short for dealing with this. So the thing that I 760 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: think we need to do, and you know, I'm a historian, 761 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: so every you know, everything looks like a nail when 762 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,440 Speaker 1: you have a hammer, right, But I think that what 763 00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 1: we really need is a conversation about our national history 764 00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 1: of racism and racist violence. The United States is hardly 765 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: alone in its history of racial injustice. There are many 766 00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 1: other countries that have similar stories, but we are very 767 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: very peculiar in how little we have done to actually 768 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: face down that story. You know, if you think about it, 769 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:36,320 Speaker 1: even something like make America Great Again, that is a 770 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: historical argument, right, that's making an argument about time, about 771 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: what is America, about what's included, about who's included, about 772 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:47,080 Speaker 1: whether it was great. Those arguments depend on people having 773 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 1: a degree of blankness about what the story is that 774 00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: we all share, that we all come from here. So 775 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: I think that's a huge part. The other place I 776 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 1: think we really need action is de radicalization. It's incredibly 777 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,200 Speaker 1: difficult to scale it, really, I think is working mostly 778 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,800 Speaker 1: on a one to one sort of model, And for 779 00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 1: that reason, I think that it would be much more 780 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: helpful if I were a legislator, if I had a 781 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,040 Speaker 1: magic one want and a lot of money upstream efforts 782 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,359 Speaker 1: like teaching kids civics, teaching kids what to do when 783 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,879 Speaker 1: they encounter white power content, online resources for school librarians 784 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,400 Speaker 1: and parents and teachers who are you know, trying with 785 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: both their hands to keep their kids from going to 786 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 1: these websites. I think turning off the pipeline would really 787 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 1: be helpful. And the research also shows that deep platforming, 788 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,560 Speaker 1: you know, I don't think the goal is to remove 789 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 1: these actors from the Internet. The Internet is a wide, 790 00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,400 Speaker 1: vast place. There will always be hate speech, but removing 791 00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:48,000 Speaker 1: the forum slows down the momentum and that has a 792 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: real results and how many people are hurt. Yeah, that's 793 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,359 Speaker 1: really a good point. Thank you so much for joining us. 794 00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: Oh it's my pleasure. Thanks for having me. That's it 795 00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:01,240 Speaker 1: for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, 796 00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: and Friday to your the best minds in politics makes 797 00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,520 Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, 798 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,799 Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going. 799 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.