1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,200 Speaker 1: Cathy is frazzled as she's stuck in traffic. She thinks 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: to herself, I'm too busy to be going out for lunch, 3 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: too busy to chit chat, too busy to deal with 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: any food that isn't just handed to me through a 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,079 Speaker 1: drive through window. Kathy is still frazzled as she walks 6 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: into a cafe. I have a million things to do 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: at work, a billion things to do at home, a 8 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: zillion thanks to do for the holidays. I'm too busy 9 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: for lunch. Too busy, too busy. Kathy then gets to 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: a cafe and sits at a table with her friend, 11 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: looking stressed. Hi Kathy, what's new? Nothing but an extremely 12 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: busy nothing. And if that's not a thesis statement for 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: the life of the Kathy character, I don't know what is. 14 00:00:48,760 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: Hi everybody, and welcome to ac cast. I'm your host, 15 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, And in our last episode today, we're going 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: to peek our little heads out of the fourth ring 17 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: of the Kathy Inferno and to can look at what 18 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: we've learned from both the character and the creator. The 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: comic by creator Kathy guys Wide, its own admission is 20 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: about four things love, work, food and Mom, and for Mom, 21 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: I'll just subden relationships to women in general, as that's 22 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: kind of an overarching theme as well. And after spending 23 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: almost six months with Kathy's work, her generation, her humor, 24 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: and the many different reasons this character was so loved 25 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: and hated, the clearer it is to me that Kathy 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: comics are a masterful examination of effort and failure. And 27 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: I don't mean that in a negative way at all, 28 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: because when it comes to talking about failure, Kathy is 29 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: a huge success. I don't think that the idea of failure, 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: especially failure over time, is discussed often enough in popular media, 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: and when it is discussed, it tends to be a 32 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: little melodramatic or tragic or overly goofy. Failure is relegated 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: to over long art movies or or HBO comedies. Failures 34 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: that are examined in deep and empathetic detail are usually 35 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: the failures of men, and they often elicit some kind 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 1: of sympathetic response, even when the characters aren't particularly likable. 37 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: This falls under the umbrella of the male anti hero 38 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: that has been so popular in media over the past 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: twenty years. But when those same qualities, those same failures, 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: those same lapses of judgment are applied to anyone but 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: a man, and usually a white man at that people 42 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: often turn on them. And in the Funny Pages where 43 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,079 Speaker 1: Cathy lived, when characters fail, they would ordinarily succeed in 44 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 1: some way by the end of the strip, or they're 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: framed as a sympathetic hero. Think how Dilbert became this 46 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: iconic in cell whose hatred of his office job made 47 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: him a hero to gen X cubicle heads. Fuck. Think 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: about how Charlie Brown's existential dread turned into not just 49 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: a billion dollar industry but one of the most popular 50 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: characters to root for in spite of their failure years 51 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: of all time. The Kathy character up ends that trend 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: in almost every way. Not only was she actively rooted 53 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: against by many people in a way that's certainly never 54 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: followed Charlie Brown, by the end of many of Kathy 55 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 1: Guys Wives comic strips, her character was failing harder than 56 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: when the strip began. Here's an example of what I'm 57 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: talking about. This is from the late nineties and Irving 58 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: is about to lay Kathy off from her job of 59 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: over twenty years. I couldn't get you laid off, Cathy, 60 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: I still have a job. Oh, thank you, Irving, thank you, 61 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: but I couldn't exactly keep you here either. Excuse me. 62 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: The company isn't letting you go, but it also isn't 63 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: making a full commitment to you. Am I employed or not. 64 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,360 Speaker 1: You won't be at this office, but you will be 65 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: working someplace near and dear to your heart, act I'm 66 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: being transferred to fake Phil and you may remember that. 67 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: In this storyline, Kathy eventually does lose her job thanks 68 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: to the man who will one day be her husband, 69 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: and she then has to start her own consulting business 70 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: from home to support herself before being hired back a 71 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: year later. For thirty four years, Kathy failed almost every 72 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: single day in the daily sense. She fails knowingly. She 73 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: looks in a mirror and doesn't like what she sees. 74 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: She steps on a scale and doesn't like what she sees. 75 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 1: She walks into a date and she doesn't like who 76 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: she sees or how they see her. And then there 77 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: are these longer term failures that she doesn't see because 78 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: she couldn't possibly see them coming. No one wants to 79 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: think that the issues they have with self image in 80 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: nine are just different versions of the same problems that 81 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 1: they'll have. That's like the definition of a bad hang. 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 1: But very often that's true, and while it may contradict 83 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: itself in a fictional character, it happens very often in 84 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: real life. Kathy is full of contradictions. She flux, but 85 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:06,599 Speaker 1: she still ends up with irving. She tries every avenue 86 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: she can, often going into debt to do so, to 87 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: love herself, but she's still insecure. At the close of 88 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: every single comic, she dresses for the job she wants, 89 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 1: but she never gets that job. And even when she 90 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: succeeds at what she thought she was supposed to want, 91 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,679 Speaker 1: the merit to the career, and in the final strip 92 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: of the series, the pregnancy, it's unclear to people who 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: have been there the whole time whether she's achieved what 94 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 1: she was told she wanted or what she actually wanted 95 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: for her life. But unlike these complicated characters who struggle 96 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 1: with personal relationships and the way they view themselves, the 97 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: famous failure character canon, Kathy was rarely met with sympathy. 98 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: If you've been listening to this show, you're aware that 99 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:53,280 Speaker 1: the character's failures were only fuel for further antagonism. Here's 100 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: an excerpt from the comic Journals Juliette Khn to this 101 00:05:56,600 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: point from Cathy was and is a liability. She reveals 102 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: us as victimized. She reveals us as creatures that do 103 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,479 Speaker 1: not exist for men. She reveals our effort. Sometimes we 104 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: are sad because we ate with a heedlessness we are 105 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: not allowed. Sometimes we are angry because our bosses kept 106 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: cornering us after hours, and so we must repudiate her. 107 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: There has always been a problem of continuity in feminism, 108 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: a tendency stoked by the patriarchy. We swim in to 109 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 1: slash and burn our past. How often do I hear 110 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: of people who describe themselves as feminists recall rob burning 111 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: that never happened, positively or negatively. How often do we 112 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: reinvent the wheel because whoever did at the first time 113 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: has faded into some boring old lady who we must 114 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: not become, who we surely will avoid becoming if we 115 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: just ignore her as hot as we can. Kathy, whatever 116 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: her origins, has become that woman. And beyond everything I 117 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: have just argued, it comes down to at Cathy is old, 118 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: and old women are expendable, and even we feminists are 119 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: in a hurry to be rid of them. And I 120 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: love how Juliet Khan emphasizes effort here, because the only 121 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: thing that is a bigger candidate for being torn to 122 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: ship by the general public than failure is failure that 123 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: has clear, enormous effort attached to it. Think of how 124 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: bad American idol auditions become huge. Think of how bad 125 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: movies that are sincere are really fun to watch. It's 126 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: that idea of Schaudenfreude, because I think I said that 127 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: right in Cathy's case, it's human nature with a season 128 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: eight of misogyny to find annoyance or cruel pleasure and 129 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: watching her fail. Traditionally, and certainly in Kathy's time, beauty 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: and femininity are supposed to look effortless. We're trained to 131 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: see effortlessness as sexy, as ideal. Think of traditionally feminine 132 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: sports like figure skating in ballet. In her day, Cathy's 133 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: clear effort was a source of ridicule. But to her 134 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: effort meant hope and discipline. She believes that she can 135 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: be the person that her culture is telling her to be, 136 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: and so she makes an effort by disciplining her body, 137 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: spending her money on trends, trying and trying again when 138 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: the latest rigged fad fails. And it was never a 139 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: secret that the Cathy strip, for all of its avoidances 140 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: of specific cultural events, was political simply by existing. Cathy 141 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,319 Speaker 1: said this to Hogan's Magazine in as the comic was ending. 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: I feel like a lot of the time my strip 143 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: made sort of political comments about the state of women, 144 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,359 Speaker 1: their expectations, the state of women in the office, being harassed, 145 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: being held back, being utterly confused by the mixed messages 146 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 1: we get from everything from what size to be, how 147 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: to feel about ourselves, how to look to me. That's 148 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 1: all sort of political. A lot of what I wrote 149 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: about was the woman's place in the world and the 150 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: pressure were under to be a certain way, to think 151 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: certain things, to have or not have certain opportunities. I 152 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: spoke about this with Kathy guys White recently, right as 153 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: she was in the middle of digging through her own 154 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: archives to assemble the forty five anniversary collection of her 155 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: comic strip. Here we are talking specifically about the two 156 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: times the strip touched on Kathy's harassment in the workplace, 157 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: first when Mr Pinkley harassed her in the eighties, then 158 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: again when the Product Testing Incorporated offices went into sensitivity 159 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: training in the nineties. I can't exactly remember when I 160 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: did those strips, but there was a lot of new 161 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:45,320 Speaker 1: conversation around the Anita Hill hearings and if if I 162 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: did those strips at that time, it seems like probably 163 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: I did, you did, but frankly I couldn't remember if 164 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: I did. So that was if I did, Oh, well, 165 00:09:54,840 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: that would be appropriate that Yes, this was a conversation 166 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: that was starting to be had for the first time 167 00:10:03,640 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: ever in my universe. So when I did that series, 168 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: I had a lot of support from I got a 169 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: lot of mail, you know, appreciating the fact that I 170 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: had done the series, and then I got a lot 171 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: of mail not appreciating the fact that I didn't ended 172 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: in any triumphant way. You know, the storyline just kind 173 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: of stopped. But obviously it wasn't comfortable. I mean, if 174 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: I had done that storyline in the later years of 175 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: the trip, it would have been it would have had 176 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: a much longer and much more um all acquainted ually say, 177 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,520 Speaker 1: ending to this story. But that just kind of the 178 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: storyline just kind of went away. But at least the 179 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: subject was brought up in this strip and it was 180 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: definitely something that a lot of women were experiencing. And 181 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: then after that period, then a lot of offices, when 182 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,760 Speaker 1: it had were forced to go into sensitivity training for 183 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: for the male workers and uh, you know, equality training. 184 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: I can't exactly enlightenment training for everybody. All the officers 185 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: were doing that at a time where men were having 186 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: to learn not to you know, pat their peers on 187 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: the butt and look down their blouses and you know, 188 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 1: insist they were shorter skirts, google and them in meetings. 189 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: All of that was that was perfectly um in the 190 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 1: kind of just what happened before it was men were 191 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: needing to learn that that was not okay. To illustrate 192 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: guys White's point, here's a brief history of the Kathy 193 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: character's career. She began in the seventies as a door 194 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: to door saleswoman for Product Testing Incorporated. Was then promoted 195 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: into low level management in their office, was forcibly kissed 196 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 1: by her boss, and nothing happened to discipline him. She 197 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 1: stated that job for twenty years, while occasionally winning a 198 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: small salary increase but never pay equity. She gets laid 199 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: off by Irving and replaced by a twenty two year 200 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,320 Speaker 1: old when the dot com bubble bursts in the nineties, 201 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: then brought back for a couple more years, right in 202 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: time for the two thousand eight recession to hit the company. 203 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: She isn't passionate about her work, but she's determined to 204 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: succeed at it and be the well rounded woman that 205 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 1: it's her goal to be. And I don't want to 206 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: imply that the enormous effort that goes into Cathy's day 207 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: to day doesn't occasionally result in success. In Catharsis, Cathy's 208 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: brief victory has proved very popular among fans of the strip, 209 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: but in the long term never really led her anywhere else. 210 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: Even when Cathy is blisteringly aware of how unfairly she 211 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: is being treated, even when she gets up the courage 212 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 1: to say so and not just think it or tell 213 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: it to her friend, it rarely, if ever, results in 214 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: things actually changing. More often than not, the issue isn't 215 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: that the person that she's complaining doesn't know the problem 216 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: is happening. It's that they have nothing to gain by 217 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: fixing it, and Cathy's effort and anger in the face 218 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 1: of people like this often make her look unreasonable, whiney, 219 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: fruitless hysterical. Here she is making her case for the 220 00:13:15,559 --> 00:13:19,319 Speaker 1: expenses related to being a working woman in the early nineties. 221 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: To look office acceptable, a man needs a two hundred 222 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 1: dollar suit, sixty dollar shoes, a thirty dollar shirt, five 223 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: dollars of underwear, and a ten dollar haircut. To look 224 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: office acceptable. A woman needs a two hundred dollar suit, 225 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: eighty dollar shoes and ninety dollar blouse, thirty five dollars 226 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 1: of lingerie, a forty five dollar haircut, five dollar pantyhose, 227 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,080 Speaker 1: forty six dollars of makeup, a ten dollar manicure, two 228 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,079 Speaker 1: hundred dollars of jewelry, and a thirty dollar purse containing 229 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: nine dollars of emergencies. Applies to maintain or professional look 230 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: throughout the day. Thus on behalf of all women. I 231 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: demand a year and refund for each of us, plus 232 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: ten dollars per hour for all the extra shopping time 233 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: require fired. It all evens out with the extra aspir 234 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 1: and men have to buy. Medicine is in a different category. 235 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: Shall I begin with our therapy bills. Cathy's advocacy for 236 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: herself didn't come naturally, as we're repeatedly reminded by the 237 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: comic The concept of Cathy seeing herself as a career 238 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 1: woman instead of an aspiring wife and mother gave Kathy's 239 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: mother extreme pause. The character who pushes her towards her 240 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: career was her friend Andrea, a second wave feminist whose 241 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: effort and failure were treated very differently in the comic 242 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: from Kathy's. It was instead received as and occasionally framed 243 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: as the abrasive kill joy attitude that people who advocate 244 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: for themselves are often labeled as guys. White and I 245 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: discussed Andrea's origins. How did you conceive of the Andrea character. 246 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: I just think I wish I was pulling from more 247 00:14:56,280 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: clear feminists that I saw on TV and about and 248 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: also truthfully and the part of myself that was in 249 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: agreement with that. You know, there's that, there's I always 250 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: I think that there was always a part of myself 251 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: that you believed completely was also the voice of Andrea. 252 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,520 Speaker 1: But there was the other part that had my name 253 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: on it, that was the voice that was the voice 254 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: of Kathy. So but you know there, I mean, I 255 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: read Miss Magazine, I understood, I watched I watched the 256 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: Strong Women and was proud of that and wanted to 257 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: be part of that, and but um, it was just 258 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: so much more complicated than any woman today, any young 259 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: woman today can possibly comprehend. It was. It's not that 260 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: it was complicated for everybody, because of course it wasn't, 261 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: but for a big tonk of us, you know, it 262 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 1: was complicated. We were an dating relationships in a completely 263 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: different way than then are mother's had. And that's certainly 264 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: that our grandmother's had, you know, they're all the all 265 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: those books came out sort of during my dating years 266 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: about understanding the male brain and and you know, men 267 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: are from Mars, that women are from women are Men 268 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: are from Mars, women are from Venus. And there was 269 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: that whole culture of books about trying to understand the 270 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: male brain and trying to figure that out. And there 271 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: was a generation of women like me who studied those 272 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: like like the Bible, you know, and prayed to God 273 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: that we would have some clue for how to deal 274 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: with these losers who were, you know, not wanting to 275 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: go out with us. If we you know, if they 276 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: imagine like that we made more money than they did, 277 00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: that was that that relationship over, you know, So there 278 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: was that's like I said, it's just like you can't 279 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 1: you could not comprehend it. So Kathy Guy's White carefully 280 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: constructed Andrea to be the feminist motor of the series, 281 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,359 Speaker 1: especially during the early years of the Trip, where Kathy 282 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: was still wrapping her head around the wave of middle 283 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: class boomer women making a hard commitment to their careers 284 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: over motherhood and domesticity in their twenties and thirties. But 285 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: in the late eighties, Andrea's life also created contradictions within 286 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: her character. Once Kathy was firmly in the girl boss 287 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: lifestyle in the Reagan administration with Andrea, Andrea flipped the 288 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 1: switch again and decided that she wanted marriage, children, and 289 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: her career. But as the central plot of many TV 290 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: shows I watched When I Get a Cold Go women, 291 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,960 Speaker 1: having it all is not something that's made simple or 292 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: sometimes even possible to do, and so while Andrea is 293 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 1: successful in getting married and having her children, she is 294 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: punished by being forced back to the bottom of the 295 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: corporate ladder. Andrea was furious as this happened, and she 296 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: told Kathy this when they became co workers. I was 297 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: earning sixty thousand a year when I quit working full 298 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: time to be a mother, and now all I'm worth 299 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: the six fifty and our temp job. Do people really 300 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: think I'm not serious about my career just because I 301 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: have children, that I'm incapable of the kind of focus 302 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: that got me to the top before. It's an outrage 303 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: I intend to fight, but for now there's work to do. 304 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 1: Where shall I get started on those? In the last panel, 305 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: Cathy peers over at Andrea's desk, which is covered in 306 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: framed photos of her kids. There's an inch of space 307 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: between Gus's first bath photo and Zenas birthday album. This 308 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: is my desk, You're kidding? I thought it was an 309 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: end table. The Andrea character, as we've discussed in past episodes, 310 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: made a strong effort to be the woman that second 311 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: wave feminism told her or she could be. Whether she 312 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: realized this or not, these opportunities were promised to upwardly 313 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 1: mobile white women in particular. At different points in the comic, 314 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: Andrea fought for pay equity, for solidarity among her friends 315 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,879 Speaker 1: and co workers, for political candidates that she believed in, 316 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: for less aggressively gendered advertising, and children's toys and holiday mascots. 317 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: She literally dressed up as Santa. One year. She taught 318 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 1: her children to demand to dismantle these systems for her 319 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 1: friends to refuse men who didn't treat them well, just 320 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: like the Kathy character advocated for herself to her accountant. 321 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: These strips can be really cathartic to read, but in 322 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 1: terms of the direction of Andrea's life, they kind of 323 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:46,400 Speaker 1: go nowhere. Andrea is never paid equally and she's discriminated 324 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: against for taking maternity leave. She ends up losing her 325 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,680 Speaker 1: job and has to rebuild her career at Cathy's workplace. 326 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 1: Her kids, Zenith and Gus, do end up succumbing to 327 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: gendered marketing. Her daughter, Zenith gets married and has a 328 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: child right out of college. Her political candidates lose. And 329 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: Andrea's character, particularly as she gets older, struggles to accept 330 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: that her expectations for her children and herself didn't bear 331 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: out the way that she wanted them to. But by 332 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: the end of the strip, she has accepted Zenith and 333 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,200 Speaker 1: she's really excited to be a grandmother. In some ways, 334 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: it's lovely, but it's also clear that there have been 335 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: a lot of blockades put in front of her and 336 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: she's just had to accept them. And like Andrea's initial 337 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: reaction to her daughter's life choices, Kathie sometimes struggles to 338 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: accept women who make different life choices than herself as well, 339 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: even when her own life choices were making her completely miserable. 340 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: Which I mean, has self floathing ever stopped you from 341 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: judging others? Because it certainly hasn't stopped me. I hate 342 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: myself Andrew choices are bad. Two things can be true. 343 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: But guys, why uses this friction to illustrate how women 344 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: of this time chose to live differently? Here's a strip 345 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: where the is visiting her friend who is a stay 346 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: at home mother in the seventies. Isn't this great, barb. 347 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: You're at home with the baby all day. I'm at 348 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: the office with my job all day. But we can 349 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: still talk like we used to. We're still just the same. Yeah, 350 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: deep down, we're just two tired women. The two sit 351 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 1: in silence in front of their coffees, clearly kind of 352 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: annoyed with the other. In the last panel, they both 353 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: explode into anxiety and say in unison for you didn't 354 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: do anything today. But keep in mind this is a 355 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: very early strip, and over time, Cathy manages to overcome 356 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: some of her prejudgments about women's life choices by actually 357 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: speaking with them. We see her talk to younger women, 358 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,199 Speaker 1: we see her talk to stay at home mothers, we 359 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: see her talk to Charlene, who's of a lower socio 360 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: economic class, and it bears repeating that there is little 361 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: to no representation of non white or non straight characters. 362 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: But to say that Kathy is completely stuck in her 363 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:10,199 Speaker 1: ways and how she views the world and other people 364 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: is kind of disingenuous. By the comics last decade, Kathy 365 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 1: is actively empathizing with the twenty two year old who 366 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: took her job. Andrea's real success is her mindset. Unlike Kathy, 367 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: we do not see her question her code of ethics 368 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: and values throughout the strip. She never wavers. Sometimes her 369 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: conviction is the punch line, but more often than not, 370 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,920 Speaker 1: it's a tool that Kathy guys Like uses to channel 371 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: her own frustrations on how women were treated or marketed 372 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: to or told to look through the years, and sometimes 373 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: between Kathy and Andrea, we see Kathy push back on 374 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: Andrea's conviction. Here's the strip. I really love Kathy Irving 375 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 1: and Andrea all sit watching a TV ad. Irving is 376 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: blissfully unaware as Kathy and Andrea annoyed the ad exclaims 377 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: for the new breed of woman, practical yet sensual, dignified 378 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:18,119 Speaker 1: yet wild, cool yet warm, businesslike yet romantic, demure yet passionate. 379 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: Look at that, Andrea, there's one of those new car 380 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: commercials that caters to the new working woman. The three 381 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: of them continued to watch commercials. Ha look at this one, Kathy, 382 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 1: here's an insurance company practically begging for the new working 383 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: woman's business. Here we go. Here's my favorite. The airline 384 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: wrote a whole new song to woo the new working woman. 385 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: Kathy and Andrea stand up from the couch and yell 386 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: in unison, how are sued to buy that stuff that 387 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: we can't get jobs that pay any money? And the 388 00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: final panel, Irving is in the kitchen stewing. As he 389 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 1: opens another beer, he says, I hate watching television with women, 390 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 1: and yes, let's take a last look at Irving, who 391 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: no amount of analysis and empathy could make me like which, Actually, 392 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 1: I need to share this with you. A listener of 393 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: this podcast reached out to me to tell me that 394 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: Irving was a favorite comic strip character of Ted Bundy. 395 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: What else do you need to know? Kathy, guys White 396 00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 1: has gone back and forth on her feelings about Irving 397 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 1: over the years, even though he eventually becomes Kathy's spouse 398 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 1: and the father of her spawn, Spawn of Kathy, I 399 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: would watch that movie. There were times during her strips 400 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,240 Speaker 1: run where Guy's White got sick of Irving and he 401 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: would disappear from the newspaper for years. There were times 402 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: where guys White swore that her heroine would never get married, 403 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: but in the early two thousands, after she had been 404 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,360 Speaker 1: married for several years herself, she wrote Irving a semi 405 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: redemption arc where he at least acknowledged some of his 406 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: more toxic qualities to Kathy, even if he didn't actually 407 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: resolve them. Let's bear that out ted Bundy can be like, 408 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,399 Speaker 1: it's really toxic that I'm a serial killer, but if 409 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,199 Speaker 1: he doesn't stop murdering people, it's like, well, this is 410 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: kind of lip service, you know. Anyways, Kathy guys Why 411 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: spoke with me about how she developed the character of 412 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,040 Speaker 1: Irving over the years and the personal experiences and Boomerman 413 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,840 Speaker 1: commentary that she brought to him. Well, sadly, it was 414 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: like exactly who I was dating at the time, which 415 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: would have been obvious to every single person who knew 416 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 1: me and except for me, because I thought I had 417 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,879 Speaker 1: disguised everything about him and about how we related to 418 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: each other. So there's that, Um yeah, did he did 419 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,400 Speaker 1: he realize? I don't think that any man I ever 420 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: wrote about thought but that was him, you know. I 421 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: think the man I chose to uh date and then 422 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: write about. We're pretty much always oblivious about how they 423 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: might appeared, you know, in this strip, they just it 424 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 1: were oblivious about how they were so um, So that 425 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,359 Speaker 1: was that, that was what what began, and you know, 426 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: and that that relationship was when I first started the strip. 427 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,880 Speaker 1: That relationship was all about waiting for him to call 428 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: and then him not calling and then I mean that's 429 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: as my memory is that long chunk of the comic strip, 430 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: and Irving was all about this and was, um, you know, 431 00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: lusting after the man who was not there. So that's 432 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: exactly in my life at that time. And for a 433 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: great and for a lot of the time I dated, 434 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: I was always just um, you know, obsessed with somebody 435 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: who wasn't interested in me. So bad for life, but 436 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: great for comic strip, you know, because um yeah, because 437 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 1: I kept repeating the exact same relationship with with different people. 438 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: But I named all of them irving, you know, and 439 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 1: then I mean he involved in time a little bit, 440 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 1: evolved over time a bit, and um, I mean I 441 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: still can't believe that she married him, but there we are. 442 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: She did. But at the time I convinced myself that 443 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: they had worked out, you know, a much better relationship, 444 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: in a much better way of communicating with each other. 445 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: But yeah, it began, and I began a just a 446 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: pitiful long and for somebody to call once again, Jamie, 447 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: I have to remind you, when I wasn't born, that 448 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: was your age, and was writing the comic strip, there 449 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: was the answering machines hadn't even been invented. I mean, 450 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: certainly we're wrestling with all the same problems from the 451 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: man's point of view. I mean, which frankly I didn't 452 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: care about because we had our own problems. And for 453 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,560 Speaker 1: all the billion hours I spent studying the books about 454 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: how to understand men, you know, I don't believe any 455 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: of them ever, books on you know, how to you know, 456 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 1: how to understand their female brand. It's didn't seem to 457 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: me that that was happening. They were just trying to 458 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 1: figure out how to behave well enough that they could 459 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: be in a relationship because you know, men wanted to 460 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: men wanted to love to you know, men have always 461 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: wanted to be with somebody, and it got very tricky. 462 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,080 Speaker 1: It's not until much later in the strip that we 463 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: begin to learn what lies beneath Irving's external abrasiveness and 464 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: judge tendencies. He admits that he's insecure about his body too, 465 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,480 Speaker 1: sometimes that he feels threatened when Cathy's career or income 466 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: eclipses his own. He's afraid of his body aging or 467 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: his peers not considering him to be masculine enough. Even 468 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: when he's going out to a department store and spending 469 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: thousands of dollars on a new cringe e look, Irving's 470 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: character is aware how his effort could seem embarrassing, to 471 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 1: the point where at sometimes he'd rather not make an 472 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: effort with Cathy at all than try and potentially embarrass himself. 473 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: As the strip goes on, he becomes more self aware 474 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: and tries harder. But I would be lying if I 475 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: said that this strip from the early two thousands where 476 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: Irving is appealing to Kathy doesn't have fro thing raw 477 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: Bundy energy for me. When we dated. Before it was 478 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: all about me, my needs, my agenda. I was such 479 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: an egomaniac, such a grandiose, self centered prince. But now 480 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: I'm humble, humble and vulnerable, the most vulnerable man you'll 481 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: ever meet. I want another chance with you, Kathy. Kathy says, 482 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: You've had ten chances with me. Irving run, Kathy run. 483 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,400 Speaker 1: As you know by now, Kathy and Irving end up together, 484 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: but her marrying him comes after decades of Kathy making 485 00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: an effort to convince herself that her body and her 486 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: life is worthy of real love. This is an entirely 487 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 1: Irving's fault. For all of his negative qualities, I never 488 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,720 Speaker 1: found an example of Irving commenting on Kathy's body, and 489 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: in fact, he would actively encourage her to be happy 490 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 1: with herself as she is. But I do believe that 491 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: Kathy's failure to find herself worthy of love and her 492 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: eventual marriage to Irving are connected. And no, I don't 493 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,680 Speaker 1: want to harp on this anymore. So let's play a 494 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 1: little send off to Irving with some strips I found 495 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: of him at his absolute worst. Play the music. I 496 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: hated being labeled an insensitive bumbler when I didn't do 497 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: something I didn't know I was supposed to do. What 498 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: is it now? Feelings, anxieties, commitment, dishwear, shows children, romance, 499 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 1: what aging boomer? This aging boomer that I am sick 500 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: of hearing about aging baby boomers. Good Bye Irving. A 501 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: psychic weight has lifted from me. And now that we 502 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: have freed ourselves from Irving, I do want to emphasize 503 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: one last time with evidence that the Kathy character fucked 504 00:31:55,880 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: and the generalization that Cathy was quote unquote desperate is 505 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: certainly tied to her relationship with Irving. There are many 506 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: moments where her behavior toward Irving excuse on the needy 507 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: and neurotic. But outside of that relationship, Cathy wasn't desperate 508 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: or clueless about the way men treated her. And there 509 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: are numerous examples of Kathy telling either us, her audience, 510 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: or sometimes the man she's going on a date with, 511 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: exactly how she feels about them she fox. Here are 512 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: some of my favorite examples. Cathy standing in the foyer 513 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,160 Speaker 1: of her house with some dorky doctor named Nathan. I 514 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: don't want to go out with you anymore, Nathan. I 515 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: have no interest in a man who's given up his 516 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: whole life for the Internet, Nor do I care to 517 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: help you try to dredge up the jewel of a 518 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: human that may still be buried in your brain under 519 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: forty email addresses. In this one, Kathy sits at a 520 00:32:54,880 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: bar with a mustachioed creep named John who's just approached her. Hi, sweetie, 521 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 1: can I buy you a drink? No? Thanks? Hey, come on, 522 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 1: this is the twenty century, baby. You gotta loosen up, 523 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: you gotta live, you gotta do whatever makes you feel good. 524 00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 1: In the final panel, Cathy smirks as she dumps her 525 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: glass of water on his head. John shot his shot, 526 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: and he fucked with the wrong girl. Here's another, at 527 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 1: the dinner date with a guy named Bradley in the eighties. 528 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: In this one, Bradley is talking, Kathy is thinking, yack yack, 529 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: my beamer, my boat, yack yack. The second this blind 530 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: date is over, I'm going to murder Charlene. Yack yack, 531 00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: my jacuzzi, my club, yack yack, my masseuse. I'll go 532 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: to her home and strangle her scrawny neck for fixing 533 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 1: me up with this geek. My condo yack yack, my 534 00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: broker yack yack. Cathy is still thinking, but she's furious. 535 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: I'll go to prison, so what. I'll spend the rest 536 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: of my life rotting behind bars, but I'll have my revenge. 537 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:10,240 Speaker 1: Bradley cluelessly blathers on in the last panel, completely unaware 538 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: that Kathy is plotting to murder her best friend. So 539 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: what are your plans for the future, Kathy? And I 540 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: saved the best for last. Here's Kathy rejecting her coworker, Ted. 541 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: Do you want to get together sometime? Kathy? No, Ted, 542 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 1: Actually no, I don't. Well, you may be asking about 543 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: the most casual of dates. I can only suspect you 544 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: have deeper interests, and it's my responsibility to tell you 545 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: I do not share them. Experience has taught me that 546 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: even one day with a man I'm not attracted to 547 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: is a mistake. I'm not interested in romance with you, Ted, 548 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:49,719 Speaker 1: not now, not ever. And the last panel, Ted is 549 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,880 Speaker 1: gone and Kathy looks nervous, thinking to herself at her desk. 550 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: The only man I really communicate with are the ones 551 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: I'll never speak to again. So to say that Cathy 552 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: is not a desirable entity, come on, This is a 553 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: woman who two of her own secretaries fell in love 554 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: with her and abuff personal trainer ten years her junior 555 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 1: fell madly in love with her and proposed so. While 556 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: Cathy generally doubts her own desirability, she desires and is desired, 557 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: which could be said of virtually no single woman over 558 00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: thirty five in the Funny Pages, or, while we're at it, 559 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,799 Speaker 1: in the vast majority of pop culture while Kathy was 560 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,280 Speaker 1: in print. But Guys White still finds room for nuance 561 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:40,280 Speaker 1: here because yes, her character is desired, but that doesn't 562 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: mean that she isn't still insecure and self conscious. The 563 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: Kathy character was never really encouraged to love herself by 564 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: her culture, because accepting yourself generally means spending less money. 565 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:56,359 Speaker 1: I firmly believe that the reason that all of these 566 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: elements come together so cleanly, especially on the topic of 567 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: body and self image, is because of Kathy Guys, who 568 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: has awareness of not just her own feelings but the 569 00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: feelings of the people in her generation. By her own admission, 570 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: she's a little less clear on the subsequent generations. But 571 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,839 Speaker 1: that wasn't what the Kathy comic was. It was an 572 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 1: examination of the way that the average American boomer was 573 00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: encouraged to liberate herself one decade, then pivot to hyper 574 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: consumption and self absorption the next. It illustrated how this 575 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: model was completely unsustainable and disorienting, and the Kathy character's 576 00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: whiplash when it came to the constant changing in diet 577 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: and fashion reflected that guys White spoke with me about 578 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: her inspiration, about where she pulled from for food storylines 579 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: and how they were received well. The I think the 580 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: approach to the subject matter only changed because the sensibility 581 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: of the world change. When I started the strip, nobody 582 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: was talking thing about embracing your lovely feminine form whatever 583 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: shape or size you are, which you know, changed a 584 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: lot in the last years. Even though I think that 585 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:14,319 Speaker 1: that that that team just kind of evolved as as 586 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: as the food consciousness evolved in the frustrations of it evolved. 587 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: M it was just with like an ongoing battle that 588 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: I know that a lot of women had with their 589 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: self image. A lot of it had to do with 590 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,120 Speaker 1: how much they wait in the morning, or how they 591 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: feel about themselves in the morning, or what they could 592 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: fit into to go out. And no matter how supportive 593 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: the universe was, how you know, how they shouldn't feel 594 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: bad about their weight. Then, uh, you know the reality 595 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 1: of a woman's looking in a mirror and not being 596 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: happy with yourself is is hard. It's hard for that. 597 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: It's hard for that to be changed by the power 598 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: of like a magazine article that says you have to 599 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: feel good about yourself. So, I mean, there were a 600 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 1: billion diets over the years. There still are, you know, 601 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: that promise all kinds of things. It's hard to not 602 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: be seduced by those. It's hard for women to not 603 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: it's hard for women to pick up any magazine where 604 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: the cover says, you know, we're all beautiful the way 605 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: we are, and then inside his twenty articles on how 606 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 1: to you know, loose twenty pounds by by Memorial Day weekend. 607 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: And it's so complicated right now to be a woman 608 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,240 Speaker 1: and to know how good you're supposed to feel about yourself. 609 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 1: And yet too, you know kind of um experience that 610 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, the true pressure and the world pressure to 611 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:43,000 Speaker 1: look and be a certain way. Who is Kathy changing 612 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: or like trying to change her body for? Ultimately do 613 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 1: you think, well, there's a good question. Ah, I don't know, 614 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: it seems I don't know. I mean, it seems I 615 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: assume in the beginning of the trip, you would think 616 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: that Kathy changing it to be more lovable, and then 617 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: towards the end of this trip, I would think that 618 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: Kathy just wanted to not you know, being to be 619 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: happier with how she looked at herself in the mirror. 620 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,239 Speaker 1: I would think it was not so much about being 621 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: loved by somebody else. It was more about not being 622 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: discussed by herself. Sure, you know just what you just said, 623 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: what you just said that, um that self consciousness is 624 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: a very lonely place. It was lonely when I was young, 625 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: and it's I think it's a lot lonelier. It's even 626 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: lonelier now now that everybody is so self expressed and 627 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: so empowered to be who they are, it seems like 628 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: it's less even even lately, I saw on Instagram that 629 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,239 Speaker 1: was kind of a new wave of kind of being vulnerable, 630 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: in the power of being vulnerable. And but then, you know, 631 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: in my time, I would have looked at those and gone, well, 632 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 1: they're not being vulnerable in the way I feel vulnerable. 633 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: You know, there still is a lonely There's is a 634 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: great loneliness to that, and I think right now because 635 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:12,040 Speaker 1: it's I think less less okay to admit that you, um, 636 00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,239 Speaker 1: don't you know, maybe feel good about yourself or your 637 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 1: own sure about this, or your feel inadequate or I 638 00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,439 Speaker 1: feel insecure. It's that's okay to admit it out loud. 639 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,680 Speaker 1: So it's kind of even with all this this universal 640 00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: women supporting other women, it's it's still, you know, it's 641 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 1: still like at the end of the day, is so 642 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: so you're looking in the mirror and going, you know how, 643 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: you know, so where am I? And what did I 644 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:41,399 Speaker 1: do today? And you know, do I measure up? And 645 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: did I blow up? Self consciousness is a very lonely place. 646 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: Could very well be the subtitle for this comic strip. 647 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: And I think it's particularly interesting how Kathy Guisswide's body 648 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 1: was also constantly commented on whenever she would do an interview, 649 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 1: whether she was actually appearing on screen or not. I 650 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 1: recently spoke with Drew's on dan Ella Standard, a researcher 651 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: who worked on Marissa Metzer's book This Is Big, a 652 00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,919 Speaker 1: history of weight watchers and spot on criticism of how 653 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,759 Speaker 1: predatory diet culture continues to mutate and evolve, and we 654 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,919 Speaker 1: spoke about where the Cathy Comics fell on this spectrum. 655 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: Here's a little bit of our conversation. It moves forward 656 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: in time and you can see there's a very specific 657 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 1: line that's you know, followed from you know, someone's you know, 658 00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: Silent Generation mom being on like a cigarette diet. And 659 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,280 Speaker 1: you know Lurd was one to like the weight Watchers 660 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,920 Speaker 1: at Work program, which is what you know Cathy was 661 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,799 Speaker 1: licensed for. And it's so interesting, like to learn more 662 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,360 Speaker 1: about that. I mean, obviously the history of weight Watchers 663 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: is like a whole thing when you talk about it 664 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: and you start going down that path unraveling that. I mean, 665 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,160 Speaker 1: we all are caught up in what we're told about 666 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: our bodies, their entire lives. We're told that, you know, 667 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,799 Speaker 1: it's a it's a lifestyle and not a diet, and 668 00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,200 Speaker 1: I think, you know, it makes you feel like you're 669 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 1: going crazy at a certain point because you know, like 670 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: you know that there's a separation there and like it 671 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily make sense. So Cathy is interviewed in this 672 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: Weight Watchers magazine, um, and she says a couple of 673 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: things that I think we're like really interesting because I 674 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: do feel disconnect there, right, she said, weight Watchers gave 675 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,120 Speaker 1: me a foundation for living in a world filled with 676 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: food and talks about you know how she's really proud 677 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: of weight Watchers in the work that they do, and 678 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,759 Speaker 1: she did a couple um specific kind of motivational posters 679 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: and cartoons for weight Watchers and one of them, you know, 680 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 1: it's caffe at Work because it was the Weight Watchers 681 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: at Work program. And I can't, by the way, I 682 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: think of anything like more humiliating than being laid in 683 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 1: front of my coworkers, I know, like so straight yeah, 684 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: but like Happy in this car team is saying, I 685 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 1: will not think about being on a diet. I am 686 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: not on a diet. I'm on a new food program 687 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: for life. So when you're framing it that way, and 688 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 1: like when we think about you know, Oprah's partnership with 689 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: w W, it's like, well, she's talking about a lifestyle change, 690 00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,480 Speaker 1: and it's never a life. It's not a lifestyle. I mean, 691 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: like you can't count points for the rest of your existence, right, 692 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,840 Speaker 1: and and it doesn't quite make sense, but I try, 693 00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: Like in my heart of hearts, I'm always trying to 694 00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 1: give happy and you know, the real happy, like you know, 695 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: the I don't know some space in my heart to 696 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,840 Speaker 1: understand that, like they're on their own journey. What have 697 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,879 Speaker 1: the change has been in how we're trained to see 698 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: their bodies. A portion of my professional life is brand 699 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:49,960 Speaker 1: strategy and specifically like the background of food UM and marketing. 700 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: And it's a repackaging, you know. And it's not as 701 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,840 Speaker 1: simple as that, obviously, because I think, especially in the 702 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 1: last few years, like that attitude has changed more than 703 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: it has in a very long time. UM. But when 704 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: you look at the way that people talk about UM, 705 00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: dieting in like the older books that I have, when 706 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,279 Speaker 1: you talk when they talk about aging, when they talk 707 00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: about you know, any kind of like health and wellness, 708 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 1: beauty situation, UM, you can see how that language has 709 00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: changed over time. But it's still selling the same thing, right. 710 00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: And you know, I think in this interview, I keep 711 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 1: going back to the Westsnitz the same thing because it 712 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: was so interesting for me to actually hear Kathy speak 713 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: about herself and you know, she talks about weight being 714 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:40,720 Speaker 1: central to every woman's existence UM, and that's very true. 715 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: Like that's the truth that hasn't changed, UM, And the 716 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,320 Speaker 1: way that we talk about it has changed a bit. UM. 717 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: But when we're talking about, you know, even now, like 718 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,000 Speaker 1: when we're talking about wellness culture and self care culture, 719 00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 1: it's diet culture and re packaged and resold to us. 720 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: Like we know we're not like licking foil at yogurt 721 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: and lives anymore. And you know, buying I hope not, 722 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,720 Speaker 1: I know, you know, like buying all kinds of weird 723 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: like we've had like diet foods, like you know, microwaving 724 00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 1: sadly in cuisines or whatever. But like maybe some people are, 725 00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: and good for them. That's their choice, right, it's their body. 726 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: But um, you know we're talking about wellness in a 727 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 1: different way. Um, but it's very much the same as 728 00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,920 Speaker 1: you know, the older books I have on you know, 729 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 1: beauty of It's it's an it's an awkward thing to 730 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,800 Speaker 1: realize that too, right, because we like to think, we 731 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 1: like to go back and look at our formerselves or 732 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: go back to older generations and say like ha ha ha, 733 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,359 Speaker 1: you know they were so dumb then, like I can't 734 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: believe that, you know, you would suggest that someone would 735 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,680 Speaker 1: smoke a cigarette instead of you know, having breakfast whatever. 736 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,160 Speaker 1: But then you look at things like and then and 737 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: I'm not critical of anyone that makes these Choy says, 738 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: but you look at things like interminute fasting, right, and 739 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:05,760 Speaker 1: that's just a choice not to eat at certain times 740 00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: of your day. And we've been telling people to do 741 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: that for a long time. Yeah, it's just being resold 742 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,520 Speaker 1: to us in a different way. But that's why I think, 743 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: you know that research is so important too, because it's 744 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:22,480 Speaker 1: important to understand how we've talked about our bodies for 745 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: however many years, and how food is tied to that 746 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: and how we treat food. Because if you don't have 747 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: you know, if you don't have a perspective on that, um, 748 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: it's hard to confront anything you know that you're going 749 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,160 Speaker 1: through on your own, or look critically at, you know, 750 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 1: the media, like the world around you. Please check out 751 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: drews onto ella standards work. It is incredible. I was 752 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,840 Speaker 1: also key to speak to Rachel sime, a New Yorker 753 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:06,280 Speaker 1: writer who wrote one of the best pieces on Kathy 754 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: guys White ever. It's a twenty nineteen piece from New 755 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,720 Speaker 1: York Magazine called The Feminist Paradox of Kathy Guys White, 756 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 1: and was released during the press cycle for guys White's 757 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: memoir Fifty Things That Aren't My fault for the interview. 758 00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: Rachel sim went to Guys White's Los Angeles home. The 759 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,800 Speaker 1: two of them played a game of chicken on whether 760 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,960 Speaker 1: either of them would eat any of the cookies on 761 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:32,480 Speaker 1: the table. Neither Diad and sim echoes. Juliette cons wish 762 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,520 Speaker 1: to reconsider the bad faith criticism made about guys White's 763 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,600 Speaker 1: work back in the day. I got to catch up 764 00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,000 Speaker 1: with Rachel recently and ask her where Kathy comics fall 765 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,400 Speaker 1: in our understanding of the relationship between Kathy, the American 766 00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: middle class, and failure. Here's our conversation. One of the 767 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: things that I think is a real disservice to her, 768 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,000 Speaker 1: which I know you've gotten into, is this idea that 769 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: like this external creation she made for the comic, this satire, 770 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:06,640 Speaker 1: this avatar upon which she could project all her anxieties, 771 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:13,760 Speaker 1: became a stand in for her right and her totality, 772 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,560 Speaker 1: and that's her creation, Like Kathy is her little impish 773 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,759 Speaker 1: avatar that she made for so she could launder all 774 00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:23,720 Speaker 1: these issues and like figure them out and work through them, 775 00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to it being like this is my autobiography. 776 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think that that distinction was really 777 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,719 Speaker 1: stark to me. When I met her, because she's so 778 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: funny and she's so charming, and you get the sense 779 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,440 Speaker 1: of what she was like one of Johnny Carson's favorite guests, right, 780 00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: And people always forget that part of Kathy's life where 781 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: she was, you know, had a public life. She was 782 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,600 Speaker 1: very charming and full of charisma and all this stuff 783 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,759 Speaker 1: versus like everyone wants to think she's like sitting at 784 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 1: home in sweatpants, like deciding whether or not she should 785 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: eat the chocolate. Right, That's that's not an accurate representation 786 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,839 Speaker 1: of her. At the same time, she was never Philis Diller. 787 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,520 Speaker 1: She was never out there like yep in it up 788 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 1: and given it back to the boys. I think that 789 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,080 Speaker 1: she had a very sort of interesting place that her 790 00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,160 Speaker 1: comedy was coming from, which was like it was a 791 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:11,520 Speaker 1: comedy of insecurity, anxiety and questions about being a woman, 792 00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,360 Speaker 1: and especially for her time, those questions which are just 793 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: so clearly addressed in today's comedy, I mean, could be 794 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,919 Speaker 1: even more. But is so, you know, is like much 795 00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: more to the forefront. I mean, at that time, I 796 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,480 Speaker 1: think it was pretty radical and people didn't really know 797 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: what to do with it. For Kathy, at least, it 798 00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:34,240 Speaker 1: felt like her work was interpreted so literally by people 799 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,480 Speaker 1: as and in a way that you would never assume 800 00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: that any other comic would be interpreted so literally, and 801 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,719 Speaker 1: so went to one and it almost like, I mean, 802 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 1: the closest thing I can think of maybe is like 803 00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: Larry David or something where he's made this like creation 804 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:53,799 Speaker 1: out of his anxiety. And then everyone's like, that must 805 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: be Larry David. I've never met Larry. I have no 806 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,160 Speaker 1: idea what he's really like, but I think maybe there's 807 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: that amount of project sin and maybe the closest thing 808 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:05,440 Speaker 1: I'm thinking of, you know, certainly Kathy has changed in 809 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: my estimation so many times, you know, flip flopped and 810 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,200 Speaker 1: oh I'm angry with it and I'm wrestling with it, 811 00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:14,240 Speaker 1: and then I'm so astonished by what she was able 812 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,479 Speaker 1: to do, especially being you know, one of the only 813 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:21,120 Speaker 1: women cartoonists to ever get a nationally syndicated cartoon and 814 00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,920 Speaker 1: completely made it and if Man's World for what that's worth, 815 00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: and also she was a mogul and an entrepreneur, and 816 00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:32,040 Speaker 1: she was incredibly successful, and she made a lot of 817 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,000 Speaker 1: women feel seen. I mean, at the end of the day, 818 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:35,680 Speaker 1: that was what was so astonishing to me. I mean, 819 00:50:35,719 --> 00:50:39,719 Speaker 1: she has an entire room of fan mail rights. She 820 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: has letters from women saying, this is me, you make 821 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,520 Speaker 1: me laugh. I look forward to your strip every time 822 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: I opened paper. This is me right, and there's you 823 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:54,400 Speaker 1: can't take that away from her at all. Intergenerationally, a 824 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: lot of people don't have enough context or appreciation for 825 00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,319 Speaker 1: how hard it was for them, for what they went through, 826 00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,800 Speaker 1: For everything Kathy did to even get her own comic strip. 827 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,080 Speaker 1: How she had a hide in the bathroom of her 828 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,239 Speaker 1: ad agency on low woman in the hierarchy there, and 829 00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,440 Speaker 1: she you know, I didn't want anyone to know she 830 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:14,480 Speaker 1: was doing this sort of strip about not being able 831 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,239 Speaker 1: to get a boyfriend. On the side she got men 832 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: would judge her. She's crying in the bathroom stall and 833 00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,919 Speaker 1: all of these things that, like, you know, she broke 834 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:23,760 Speaker 1: a lot of ground. She made a lot of things happen. 835 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:25,440 Speaker 1: She was the first person to do a lot of things. 836 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,759 Speaker 1: So we need to appreciate that. I think the conversation 837 00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:29,520 Speaker 1: I had with her was one of the more enlightening, 838 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,359 Speaker 1: like intergenerational conversations I'd had. And she's so funny. You know, 839 00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,320 Speaker 1: if you don't already follow Rachel Sime's work, I strongly 840 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,759 Speaker 1: encourage you to do so. She currently worked for The 841 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,960 Speaker 1: New Yorker really anything in her catalog, and I buried 842 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,319 Speaker 1: the lead a bit there because Rachel's experience going to 843 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,799 Speaker 1: Kathy's house closely mirrored one that I had not too 844 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,760 Speaker 1: long ago. Shortly before this show began to air, Kathy 845 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:59,280 Speaker 1: guys White invited me to her house. It's a really 846 00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,320 Speaker 1: cool house. It's got two floors in this huge yard 847 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:05,720 Speaker 1: in Los Angeles. Definitely a house that's out of reach 848 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,680 Speaker 1: for the average person, but not so big that it 849 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,279 Speaker 1: feels ghost or like the person who lives there thinks 850 00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,919 Speaker 1: that they're better than you. That's the kind of house 851 00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:16,440 Speaker 1: that you would get if you were doing well for 852 00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,840 Speaker 1: yourself during the Clinton administration, I guess. And that's where 853 00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,000 Speaker 1: I meet Kathy guys White in person for the first time, 854 00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,200 Speaker 1: and she was exactly the person I was hoping she 855 00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,960 Speaker 1: would be, apologizing for her dog barking from another room, 856 00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,520 Speaker 1: offering my boyfriend and I water, and very graciously accepting 857 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,439 Speaker 1: the ugly grocery store flowers I brought that I could 858 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,200 Speaker 1: have soren were tasteful and cheek when I got them, 859 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:41,520 Speaker 1: but I realized about two blocks away from her house, 860 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:45,120 Speaker 1: that they were ugly and desperate and would ruin everyone's 861 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,359 Speaker 1: lives who saw them. So he stood in her foy 862 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,480 Speaker 1: for a while and talked, but it felt awkward. We 863 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,320 Speaker 1: sat outside for a while, but it was too hot, 864 00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:56,040 Speaker 1: and I was just really, really nervous to meet her 865 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,080 Speaker 1: after spending this month time with her work and felt 866 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: the most embarrassing elements of my own personality come out, 867 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,480 Speaker 1: which I think is anxiety from a sincere feeling. I 868 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,560 Speaker 1: can't tell what she thinks about me, because I don't 869 00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,600 Speaker 1: naturally have the personality that matches who I am when 870 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,440 Speaker 1: I'm preparing, like I am for you right now, like 871 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,520 Speaker 1: I am six feet tall, but people regularly describe me 872 00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:19,280 Speaker 1: as five eight, which I think speaks to the energy 873 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,320 Speaker 1: A bring to a room. And Kathy isn't the person 874 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,719 Speaker 1: from the Johnny Carson interviews either. She's so kind and 875 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:28,799 Speaker 1: funny and accommodating during our visit, but that polish that 876 00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,759 Speaker 1: comes with a well created late night appearance isn't there 877 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 1: in real life, of course. So instead of choosing a 878 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 1: third location to sit, she decides to show us around, 879 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,680 Speaker 1: and in my opinion, there's like just enough Kathy stuff 880 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,480 Speaker 1: in most of the house, not so much that it's 881 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,600 Speaker 1: like we get it, but not little enough that it 882 00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:50,720 Speaker 1: seems like she's distancing herself from her most famous work. 883 00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:53,840 Speaker 1: What there's most of is other people's art and photos 884 00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:57,440 Speaker 1: of her family, her parents, as young people, as old people, 885 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,680 Speaker 1: her sister's, her daughter, some of her HER's bedroom is 886 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,160 Speaker 1: in the middle of getting moved out because her daughter 887 00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:05,160 Speaker 1: is getting married this fall, and it seems to be 888 00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,399 Speaker 1: kind of the ceremonial thing that you do when you're 889 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,919 Speaker 1: getting married. A lot of the art she has hung 890 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,400 Speaker 1: our original works from her peers that were gifted or 891 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:16,720 Speaker 1: doodled for her through the years. There's original for Better 892 00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:21,160 Speaker 1: or for Worses by Lynne Johnston. There's original Charles Schultz Snoopyes, 893 00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:24,360 Speaker 1: there's a drawing of the Ziggy character looking at Kathy 894 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:27,600 Speaker 1: sadly and she's saying it would never work. Ziggy were 895 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:31,799 Speaker 1: from different comics. In her office, there are folios with 896 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:36,680 Speaker 1: every Kathy comic organized in chronological order from seventy six 897 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:39,279 Speaker 1: to two thousand ten. Her awards are in there, to 898 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:42,160 Speaker 1: her Emmy, her Ruben, which is the highest award in 899 00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,240 Speaker 1: comic strips. She shows us her studio where she drew 900 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,799 Speaker 1: new Kathy comics during the pandemic lockdown, andrew some of 901 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,960 Speaker 1: the most popular Kathy comics ever in the nineties and 902 00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,040 Speaker 1: the two thousand's. There's a window that looks right down 903 00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: to her yard. There's a large white lettered sign that 904 00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:01,280 Speaker 1: says AC but it's the same color white as the wall, 905 00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,160 Speaker 1: not too flashy. She's framed this hand drawn map near 906 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:08,160 Speaker 1: her art supplies. It's a map that's covered in these 907 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:12,160 Speaker 1: little tinfoil stars marking different places. I asked her what 908 00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,960 Speaker 1: the stars are marking, and she says that these are 909 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,120 Speaker 1: the places where her comic strip ran on its very 910 00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:22,080 Speaker 1: first day in nine when she was twenty six years old. 911 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,040 Speaker 1: The map had been carefully drawn and made by her 912 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 1: parents and given to her while she was still working 913 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:31,240 Speaker 1: her advertising job in Michigan, not sure that this comic 914 00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:34,040 Speaker 1: thing would become a full time gig. There's not a 915 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 1: ton of stars on the map, but the comic would 916 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:38,680 Speaker 1: go on to run in thousands of papers. And I 917 00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,719 Speaker 1: think about that and how impressive that is, and then 918 00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,000 Speaker 1: I think about how great it would be to get 919 00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,200 Speaker 1: a map like that from someone who had infinite faith 920 00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,360 Speaker 1: in you. We go back downstairs and I kind of 921 00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:51,600 Speaker 1: resist the urge to ask if I can look at 922 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:55,000 Speaker 1: the comics that are framed in her bathroom, which I 923 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,880 Speaker 1: regret that convinced myself that that's like where the good 924 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:00,440 Speaker 1: stuff is. And she asks me if I want to 925 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:08,280 Speaker 1: see the shrine room, and yeah, I want to see 926 00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,680 Speaker 1: the shrine room. So we go to the shrine room. 927 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:15,520 Speaker 1: It's a small, extremely organized, but also absurdly cluttered room 928 00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 1: full of the good stuff, and by that I mean 929 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,239 Speaker 1: more Kathy merchandise than I could ever possibly conceive of. 930 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,000 Speaker 1: She lets me take pictures of this room. There's this 931 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:32,280 Speaker 1: gigantic and I mean gigantic, stuffed Kathy doll from Nemon 932 00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,680 Speaker 1: Marcus display. There's every published collection of Kathy comics. There's 933 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 1: all the merchandise that I remember from the past, the 934 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,720 Speaker 1: Kathy t shirts, aprons, mugs, tote bags, beach towels, Christmas 935 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:47,640 Speaker 1: tree ornaments, pins, a framed photograph of Kathy in front 936 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: of the Kathy ice cream stand at the Universal Aisles 937 00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:55,480 Speaker 1: of Adventure in Orlando, picture frames, rag dolls, greeting cards, 938 00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,799 Speaker 1: every novelty item you could imagine covered in acts in 939 00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,520 Speaker 1: gym clothes and Kathy and irving Kathy with her face 940 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,000 Speaker 1: in a dinner plate Charlene talking about how secretaries aren't 941 00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,840 Speaker 1: paid enough, the Kathy character smiling knowingly as a phrase 942 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 1: goes up and down the sleeve of They're the Straps. 943 00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,560 Speaker 1: The Shrine Room is a shrine to this part of 944 00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: her life. It's both a shrine to Kathy's work and 945 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: to the merchandizing business she worked so hard to build. 946 00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:27,080 Speaker 1: If you weren't around for Kathy Mania, people loved this ship, 947 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,880 Speaker 1: and women in particular bought it for their friends and 948 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:34,120 Speaker 1: siblings and themselves. I love the Shrine Room. Kathy very 949 00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:36,640 Speaker 1: kindly offers to let me take a picture with her 950 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,280 Speaker 1: and the gigantic Kathy doll. And Kathy brings us over 951 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,560 Speaker 1: to her living room table for the reason that I've 952 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,320 Speaker 1: technically come to see her, and that's to get a 953 00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: copy of her Emmy's acceptance speech, which wasn't available online anywhere. 954 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,640 Speaker 1: But we keep talking after she gives me the DVD, 955 00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,560 Speaker 1: which I will later learn has individual chapters on it 956 00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:00,040 Speaker 1: with all of her public appearances. The talk shows a 957 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:03,960 Speaker 1: ganted Kathy balloon at a national parade, footage of Kathy 958 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 1: speaking with girl scouts, not wanting me to think that 959 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,280 Speaker 1: she's an egomaniac. She tells me that her dad had 960 00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,560 Speaker 1: this DVD put together in the two thousand's. She says 961 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:16,520 Speaker 1: he wasn't very good with technologies and guesses that he 962 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:19,439 Speaker 1: brought a stack of home videos to a video store 963 00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,520 Speaker 1: in Florida. Her mom continues to live in Florida, now 964 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:27,720 Speaker 1: a healthy, fit years old. Kathy also asked me about myself, 965 00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,400 Speaker 1: how my boyfriend and I met. She tells me about 966 00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,840 Speaker 1: the work of mine that she's seen and tells me 967 00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,840 Speaker 1: what she was doing when she was my age, which 968 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:40,080 Speaker 1: was making the Kathy comic and not feeling great about herself. 969 00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm my age right now and I'm making podcasts, and 970 00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,440 Speaker 1: I don't feel great about myself. She asks me a 971 00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,840 Speaker 1: couple of times, with genuine curiousness, why I'm making this show, 972 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:53,680 Speaker 1: And I don't really have an articulate answer for her 973 00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 1: in the moment, I didn't really think that I would, 974 00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:00,120 Speaker 1: but I'm still annoyed with myself that I can't do it. 975 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,360 Speaker 1: I tell her I know that her work is important 976 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:04,320 Speaker 1: to me, and that it makes me laugh and it 977 00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,680 Speaker 1: helps me see the world that it existed in very clearly, 978 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,960 Speaker 1: that I liked seeing a character who tried really hard 979 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: and often failed, but was still deemed to be important 980 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:18,600 Speaker 1: enough to be in the newspaper every day. I tell 981 00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,480 Speaker 1: her that my mom and a lot of people like 982 00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:23,080 Speaker 1: my mom enjoyed it, and so I want to understand it. 983 00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:26,240 Speaker 1: Cathy levels with me and says that she thought I 984 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,040 Speaker 1: was going to make a show making fun of her 985 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:30,480 Speaker 1: work or punching down at it, because that had been 986 00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,760 Speaker 1: her experience with, for lack of a better phrase, people 987 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 1: like me. And I've got a little bias here because 988 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,560 Speaker 1: I really like Kathy. She loves her family, her home, 989 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,840 Speaker 1: her dog, and planning a wedding for her kid. To me, 990 00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:47,680 Speaker 1: her career is thoughtful and made to commiserate with people 991 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: who felt the same way that she did, and it 992 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,520 Speaker 1: worked really well. I mean so well that I'm sending 993 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:54,800 Speaker 1: in a house with a shrine room because of it. 994 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:58,920 Speaker 1: But as we're talking, she does acknowledge these lingering insecurities 995 00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:02,040 Speaker 1: she has. She tells me that feminists don't like her 996 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:05,480 Speaker 1: work and seems a little disappointed. She thinks the reason 997 01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,760 Speaker 1: this is is that the Kathy character is too sad, 998 01:00:08,800 --> 01:00:11,000 Speaker 1: too pathetic, and I tell her that I don't think 999 01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,280 Speaker 1: that that's true. At all anymore, and that getting to 1000 01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:16,160 Speaker 1: witness a character who you see a little bit of 1001 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,520 Speaker 1: yourself and fail feels a little good and a little bad, 1002 01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,640 Speaker 1: and that people have no less need for commiseration than 1003 01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,520 Speaker 1: they did. Then I bring up Rachel Sime's piece. I 1004 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 1: bring up Juliette Cohn's piece younger feminists who also see 1005 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,000 Speaker 1: what Kathy was trying to do. Kathy thanks me, but 1006 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,360 Speaker 1: I don't know if she buys it, which is too 1007 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,520 Speaker 1: bad because I really meant it and I still do. 1008 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,320 Speaker 1: After a couple of hours, we leave because Kathy's daughter 1009 01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,120 Speaker 1: and fiance are coming by to learn how to dance 1010 01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,800 Speaker 1: at their own wedding. This afternoon, Isaac and I go 1011 01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,200 Speaker 1: and get fries at in and out and talk about 1012 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,920 Speaker 1: her yard in the map with all the stars on it, 1013 01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:55,320 Speaker 1: and the shrine room and everything we had a conversation about. 1014 01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:59,280 Speaker 1: This is one of my first times visiting someone fully vaccinated, 1015 01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:02,760 Speaker 1: and I will never forget that afternoon. It was the best, 1016 01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,080 Speaker 1: and it made me feel completely confident that spending the 1017 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,400 Speaker 1: next couple of months making this show was the right 1018 01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,920 Speaker 1: thing to do. So I go home and watch the 1019 01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,280 Speaker 1: Emmy speech on my boyfriend's PS four I played some 1020 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,520 Speaker 1: of this speech for you in our second episode, but 1021 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,560 Speaker 1: I didn't play the full thing. And there's a funny 1022 01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:21,760 Speaker 1: story that Kathy told us about it at her dining 1023 01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,480 Speaker 1: room table. This was the Emmy's that took place in 1024 01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,480 Speaker 1: and Kathy brought a date who she later decided she 1025 01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:31,800 Speaker 1: didn't like because he was an asshole my words, not hers, 1026 01:01:32,080 --> 01:01:34,520 Speaker 1: and they ended up trading their seats at the Emmy's 1027 01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:38,080 Speaker 1: with some friends. So when Kathy's name was called as 1028 01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,800 Speaker 1: the winner of the Emmy for Outstanding Animated Program, it 1029 01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,760 Speaker 1: cuts to a shot of random people, her friends, not her, 1030 01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,800 Speaker 1: But eventually the camera finds her and she's wearing this 1031 01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,000 Speaker 1: beautiful black dress and she's standing beside her male colleagues. 1032 01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,600 Speaker 1: And Kathy blushes at the idea of doing this when 1033 01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:59,240 Speaker 1: she talks to me, but as she's on stage in 1034 01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:02,320 Speaker 1: Night eight, she doesn't let the men next to her 1035 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:06,480 Speaker 1: speak for the entire time that they're there. I'm assuming 1036 01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:10,040 Speaker 1: they would thank their family and co workers and maybe God, 1037 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,000 Speaker 1: if that's their thing, but we'll never know, because on 1038 01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:16,560 Speaker 1: this day, Kathy guys White took up every second and 1039 01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:20,160 Speaker 1: every inch there was to celebrate this accomplishment and to 1040 01:02:20,240 --> 01:02:23,320 Speaker 1: think the people who she felt were responsible for it. 1041 01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:32,280 Speaker 1: So here's that speech in full. When I started the 1042 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,400 Speaker 1: comic strip, Kathy, I was sure that I was the 1043 01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:36,560 Speaker 1: only woman in the world who came home from a 1044 01:02:36,680 --> 01:02:39,400 Speaker 1: day in my brilliant career and stood in the kitchen 1045 01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:47,480 Speaker 1: squirting ready whipped whip topping directly into my mouth. I 1046 01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,680 Speaker 1: was sure that I was the only professional, enlightened, professional 1047 01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:54,720 Speaker 1: businessperson who balanced my checkbook by switching banks and starting 1048 01:02:54,720 --> 01:03:01,880 Speaker 1: all over every six months, or or who coped with 1049 01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:07,680 Speaker 1: relationship problems by eating a cheesecake. I'm first grateful to 1050 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,439 Speaker 1: my parents, not only for encouraging me to believe that 1051 01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,320 Speaker 1: I was not the only one, but for forcing me 1052 01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,800 Speaker 1: to send the humiliating moments of my own life to 1053 01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:22,080 Speaker 1: Universal Press Indicate for publication. I'm grateful to Universal Press Indicate, 1054 01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,920 Speaker 1: especially John McNeil, Jim and Cathy, andrews Lee s Salem 1055 01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,440 Speaker 1: and Tom Drape for their great support. I'd like to 1056 01:03:29,480 --> 01:03:32,600 Speaker 1: thank Fred Rappaport and Kim La Masters of CBS for 1057 01:03:32,760 --> 01:03:38,160 Speaker 1: taking one of the first chances on primetime animation for adults. 1058 01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to say a special thanks to my sisters 1059 01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:43,880 Speaker 1: Marianne and Mickey who are not only my best editors, 1060 01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:47,840 Speaker 1: but the whole foundation of my sense of humor. On 1061 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:50,919 Speaker 1: behalf of the great animators we worked with, the producers, 1062 01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:54,280 Speaker 1: the voices, and all the supporters of Kathy who are 1063 01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:57,520 Speaker 1: sitting at home tonight destroying their diets while they watched 1064 01:03:57,560 --> 01:04:02,000 Speaker 1: the Emmys. Thank you all for this wonderful vote of confidence. 1065 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:10,880 Speaker 1: We will really treasure it. Thank you Kathy. Thanks everyone 1066 01:04:10,960 --> 01:04:14,680 Speaker 1: here who elevated her work to what it was. Her 1067 01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:18,760 Speaker 1: parents who made maps with little stars on them, her sisters, 1068 01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:21,200 Speaker 1: the people who had taken a chance on her, and 1069 01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,800 Speaker 1: most importantly, her audience, mostly women who were struggling with 1070 01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:29,000 Speaker 1: themselves in the same way that her character was. She 1071 01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:33,920 Speaker 1: made work for women who experienced insecurities, who tried and 1072 01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:38,040 Speaker 1: who failed, not to propose a radical solution, but to 1073 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,960 Speaker 1: reassure them that they weren't alone, the way that a 1074 01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,800 Speaker 1: lot of really good art assures people that they're not alone, 1075 01:04:43,920 --> 01:04:47,880 Speaker 1: whether in their fears or their pettiness, or their insecurity 1076 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,520 Speaker 1: or their triumphs. Each year in the Kathy comic, the 1077 01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:55,080 Speaker 1: character would make a new Year's resolution to lose weight, 1078 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,520 Speaker 1: to eat better, to find someone, to stop smoking, to 1079 01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:03,160 Speaker 1: be better, and every year, she basically stayed herself. There 1080 01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:05,800 Speaker 1: were some people in her life that thought that was enough. 1081 01:05:06,040 --> 01:05:09,080 Speaker 1: Your mom's, your dad's. There were some people who wanted 1082 01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:11,200 Speaker 1: her to be the person she was told to be 1083 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,480 Speaker 1: because that was also who they were trying to be. 1084 01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:16,960 Speaker 1: Your Andrea's, your Charlene's. And then there were people for 1085 01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,520 Speaker 1: whom she would never be enough. The Caathy character's failures 1086 01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,040 Speaker 1: turned her into a legend, and she stayed one for 1087 01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,400 Speaker 1: fans who saw their own struggles in hers. And it's 1088 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:30,920 Speaker 1: in this character's intense effort and repeated failure that I 1089 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:35,800 Speaker 1: think Cathy strips really transcend and become something special because 1090 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,120 Speaker 1: to some extent, she is one of the ultimate hashtag 1091 01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,400 Speaker 1: relatable characters, which is a convention that often makes critics 1092 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:49,720 Speaker 1: who cannot hashtag relate cringe. But Cathy's failures are invaluable. 1093 01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:53,000 Speaker 1: Knowing the ways that she struggled and failed, the issues 1094 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,840 Speaker 1: that she harps on and the ones that she seems 1095 01:05:55,920 --> 01:06:00,160 Speaker 1: completely unaware of, and what her definition of success us 1096 01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:04,360 Speaker 1: say more than a simple victory and four panels ever 1097 01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:09,440 Speaker 1: could have. I'm rooting for her. Hey, oh my gosh, 1098 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,600 Speaker 1: my Cathy, sleep paralysis demon, Where have you been? I've 1099 01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:15,080 Speaker 1: been recording for like an hour. I was just looking 1100 01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:19,400 Speaker 1: through some old stuff You've never brought me Cathy comics before. 1101 01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:23,520 Speaker 1: What are these? O? Let's read this one. This is 1102 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:28,560 Speaker 1: four panels of Cathy talking straight to the reader. I 1103 01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:33,400 Speaker 1: reject you, I reject all of you. In the second panel, 1104 01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:36,000 Speaker 1: she sits in front of a desk sign that says attitude, 1105 01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:40,360 Speaker 1: and the next one she peers above the panel feral angry. 1106 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,920 Speaker 1: She shouts, my ego will never again be squashed by 1107 01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:47,840 Speaker 1: one of you miserable tourniquets, and nothing anyone can say 1108 01:06:47,880 --> 01:06:52,360 Speaker 1: we'll change it. In the final panel, she's celebrating I 1109 01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:57,800 Speaker 1: am loved. You don't matter to me anymore. I really 1110 01:06:57,800 --> 01:07:02,360 Speaker 1: liked that. One oh one or one more, Cathy, the 1111 01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:06,480 Speaker 1: show is over already, told my closing personal anecdote. That's 1112 01:07:06,520 --> 01:07:10,400 Speaker 1: how this ship works. Just one more, okay, but it's 1113 01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:12,560 Speaker 1: a kind of the rule to end your show right 1114 01:07:12,600 --> 01:07:17,160 Speaker 1: after the little personal anecdote. One more, It's just two panels. 1115 01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:20,920 Speaker 1: Cathy's on the phone holding a diet soda. I have 1116 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:26,120 Speaker 1: unshakable dreams, unwavering routines, and an increasingly picky view of 1117 01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,440 Speaker 1: the world which lets me feel sorry for myself as 1118 01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,240 Speaker 1: an unappreciated goddess while simultaneously rejecting all who come my 1119 01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:37,960 Speaker 1: way as unworthy. That one rules, I like that one. 1120 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,520 Speaker 1: Is the show done? Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean 1121 01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:45,920 Speaker 1: I don't have another sleep paralysis demon waiting in the wings. 1122 01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:50,080 Speaker 1: If that's what you're asking me, I wasn't asking anything. 1123 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:54,120 Speaker 1: I just no, seriously, stick around hunt my dreams. Neither 1124 01:07:54,200 --> 01:08:00,000 Speaker 1: of us will ever know peace anyways, right at Yeah, 1125 01:08:01,760 --> 01:08:04,960 Speaker 1: you have now been ac pilled. It is a process 1126 01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:09,080 Speaker 1: that cannot be reversed. Unfortunately, no one can be told 1127 01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,800 Speaker 1: who Cathy truly is. You have to see her for yourself. 1128 01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:15,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to free your mind, listener, but I can 1129 01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:18,559 Speaker 1: only show you the context. You're the one that has 1130 01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:23,280 Speaker 1: to interpret it. Thanks for listening. Everybody at Cast is 1131 01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:25,920 Speaker 1: an I Heeart radio production. It is written, researched, and 1132 01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:29,360 Speaker 1: hosted by me Jamie Loftus. Thank you so much to 1133 01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,439 Speaker 1: the team who worked on this show. Sophie Lichtreman is 1134 01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:35,720 Speaker 1: the producer, Isaac Taylor is the editor, Zoe Blade is 1135 01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:39,559 Speaker 1: the composer, and Brandon Dickert wrote the slapper of a 1136 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:42,000 Speaker 1: theme song. I also want to shout out the amazing 1137 01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:45,880 Speaker 1: voice cast of this show. Jackie Michelle Johnson killed it 1138 01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:49,919 Speaker 1: as Cathy, Melissa Lozada Aliva was my first choice for Andrea, 1139 01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:53,639 Speaker 1: Maggie Mayfish ruled as Charlene, and Miles Gray as always 1140 01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,880 Speaker 1: Blew Me Away as Mr Pinkley and Irving. We also 1141 01:08:56,920 --> 01:08:59,960 Speaker 1: heard performances from my best friend in the world, Julia 1142 01:09:00,000 --> 01:09:04,519 Speaker 1: Air as Kathy guys White and from my parents. Huge 1143 01:09:04,520 --> 01:09:07,439 Speaker 1: thanks to Kathy guys White for being so supportive of 1144 01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,559 Speaker 1: this show as I was working on it, and thank 1145 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,160 Speaker 1: you for listening to it. I'll be back later with 1146 01:09:14,360 --> 01:09:22,720 Speaker 1: a different show about something else. Bye. She burst into 1147 01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:26,639 Speaker 1: the world in nineteen seventy six. She's at what, She's 1148 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,719 Speaker 1: out on dates and she don't like politics. From Mama 1149 01:09:29,880 --> 01:09:33,600 Speaker 1: and Urban to with feminist friends. She's fighting all the 1150 01:09:33,720 --> 01:09:38,839 Speaker 1: stands it with some chocolate and hand Kathy. She's fighting 1151 01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:44,120 Speaker 1: back to stressed with success. Let's come her some slack, Oh, Kathy, 1152 01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:49,080 Speaker 1: My Cathy fan Cathy. She is who she is. There's 1153 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:54,040 Speaker 1: no denying that she's up doing nag, living enemies world. 1154 01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:59,840 Speaker 1: But speaking of mind, ain't no ways time cathein she 1155 01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:04,040 Speaker 1: you and me. She wants to be seen just living 1156 01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:07,720 Speaker 1: the dream of Kathy. My God, this week got there. 1157 01:10:08,840 --> 01:10:24,280 Speaker 1: She's got a lot go in all. She's light to find, 1158 01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:33,320 Speaker 1: says Liston, goes at you believe, I feel like you 1159 01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:38,080 Speaker 1: would less, but look at you would bess why should 1160 01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:47,679 Speaker 1: he a patriarchy? It commels to me, chocolate border. She's 1161 01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:59,840 Speaker 1: fu to find stand cas she knows to be to make. 1162 01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:07,880 Speaker 1: Didn't just gone on the stand losing to leave, feel 1163 01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:17,440 Speaker 1: like you will please for at the Ruggy became with. Indeed, 1164 01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:19,000 Speaker 1: just let