1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: All right, all right, Sophie, is that do we need 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: to do anything else? All right? Well, this is Behind 3 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: the Bastards podcast about the worst people in all of history. 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: This is our first recording session of what years. To Jamie, 5 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: how was the New Year treating you? I mean, it's 6 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: it's already been a roller coaster, the ups, the downs. 7 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: I wish I was kidding. We just talked about it 8 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: off my talk about wild catch up session, and I 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: guess we're just going to have to let the listeners 10 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: fill in the blanks for themselves. Yeah, this is Behind 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: the Bastards. This is Behind the Bastards. I just I 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: just I missed you guys. So your brain, Jamie, is 13 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 1: like a library of of different screenwriters. Je. Speaking of that, 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: how do you feel about libraries? Understand the gift I 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: say yesterday your librries big fan of libraries. I like libraries. 16 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: I used to have. I used to scare my little 17 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: brother with. Okay, this is the reason my little brother 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: is not very well read. Sorry for calling him out. 19 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: But when I I loved libraries when I was a kid. 20 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: And then I told me I made up a weird 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: lie that I'm very proud of because I was very 22 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: young when I made it up. I told my brother. Yeah, 23 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 1: I told me a little brother that there's one book 24 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: in every library and you don't know what book it is, 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: but if you pull it off the shelf, the whole 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,480 Speaker 1: library blows up. Oh good, that's a good one. And 27 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: then he didn't go to the library and didn't read books. Yeah, 28 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: that's that's a good one that I was very proud, 29 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: very ambitious. My favorite lie I've told a loved one 30 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: is I convinced someone I cared about very much that 31 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: the band Hanson had died in a terrible bus crash. 32 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: And then like a year later, at a party, somebody 33 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: brought up Hanson or I think that's one of their 34 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: songs started playing and the person I had told this 35 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: lie to was like, Oh, it's so sad that they 36 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: died in that bus crash. And it was the funniest 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: moment the world. To me, that is an incredible live 38 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 1: because it is believable. Yeah, because where did hands go? Right? Yeah? Right? 39 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 1: I kind of fella, Wow, I would believe that. I 40 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: think that there would have been And then I because 41 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,000 Speaker 1: I know better because I keep up with hands, and 42 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: I'd be like, that's not true, but most people would 43 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 1: believe that most people would be the only way to 44 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: really make yourself immune from those kind of lies to 45 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time at the library. Now, Jamie, Yeah, 46 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Melville Dewey? Is that of 47 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 1: the Dewey decibel system? Ye, yep, I've heard of nothing 48 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: about him. He's a tremendous piece of shit. Um. This 49 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: episode is titled Melville Dewey Library asshole, um, and it's 50 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: about Melville Dewey. And this is this is going to 51 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: be interesting. This is we're taking a little bit of 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: a different sort of task when we do. Most of 53 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 1: our episodes are about bad people who do bad things, right, 54 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: but sometimes like there are bad people who make broadly 55 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: good things, and the opposite is true too, right, Like 56 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: you look into the atomic bomb project and a lot 57 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: of the dudes who were like responsible for that, We're 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: basically decent men who were either like the war was 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: so bad they thought it was you know, necessary, or 60 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: they were just overwhelmed by scientific fascination. They weren't like monsters. 61 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,120 Speaker 1: They were just like guys who because of you know, 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 1: wound up contributing despite the fact that they were basically 63 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: decent to something that wound up being terrible. That ship happens, 64 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 1: and the opposite happens. Like people who are shitty can 65 00:03:37,480 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: make good things, I'm sure, like Big Bush's art, George W. 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: Bush's art, um beautiful artes. Yeah. Um, so this is 67 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: a story about a terrible man whose influence was not 68 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: entirely but like probably broadly positive. Although we'll talk about 69 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: some ways in which the Dewey decimal system reinforces um racism, 70 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: which I did not know and I found fascinating. Um. 71 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: But he was an extremely influential man and his achievements 72 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: were significant parts of the foundation of like the global 73 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: library systems. Right, so, like nations around the world that 74 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: have national and public libraries, almost all of them, pretty 75 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,480 Speaker 1: much all of them owe some sort of a debt 76 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: to the way Melville Dewey, not just the Dewey decimal system, 77 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: but other kind of library infrastructure. He was one of 78 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: the people who helped to come up with I feel 79 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: like bookstores as well, like don't don't use it, probably 80 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: but definitely influenced. Yeah, there's probably a couple of billion 81 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: people who have been alive that could credit some degree 82 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: of their education or at least their love of reading 83 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: to the work of Melville Dewey. That's like a significant 84 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: legacy for anybody. Melville was also a real, real unpleasant motherfucker. 85 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: Um So. Melville Louis Cossack Dewey was born on December tenth, 86 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,000 Speaker 1: eighteen fifty one, and Adam Center, Upstate New York. At 87 00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: the time, this was known as the Burned Over District 88 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: to the fact that successive waves of evangelical Christian movements 89 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: had swept the area repeatedly during the half century before 90 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: Melville's birth. The Burned Over District gave us Mormonism, Millerism, 91 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: the Oneida Colony a huge influential chunks of the suffrage 92 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: and abolitionist movement as well as the Temperance movement. So 93 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:19,839 Speaker 1: it was like, this is a place where a lot 94 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: of these like major social movements in the US kind 95 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: of repeatedly. If it's not the only place where they start, 96 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: it's one of the places where they really get their start. 97 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: Um It was also not an easy place to live. 98 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: This is not like comfortable country. It's it's a heart 99 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: like if you think about like Upstate New York and 100 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: like what the weather is like there and how difficult 101 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: it can be to subsist in like the winter there. 102 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: With modern technology, it's like a rough motherfucking place to 103 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: be a human being with modern technology, it fucking sucks. 104 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: There's there's there's difficulties. Yeah. Um. One Wilson Library bulletin 105 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: right up that I found refers to it as hard 106 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: bitten country quote where survival was the ole, and adherence 107 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: to the basic codes of industry, frugality, and self reliance 108 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: were the guide posts. In other words, Melville was born 109 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,480 Speaker 1: to a part of the world where influential people regularly 110 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 1: set out to fundamentally change major aspects of the world 111 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: around them. And it was also a place where working 112 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: people had thin margins for success or failure, and precision 113 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: and efficiency were crucial. So this is kind of what 114 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: is molding him as a person. Is this place where like, 115 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,359 Speaker 1: not only is this place where people set out to 116 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: change everything on a pretty regular basis, um, but also 117 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: it's a place where you learn as a kid, you've 118 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 1: got to be ship's got to be on point. You know, 119 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: there's not that margins here. You have to you have 120 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 1: to be a high achieving person in order to continue living, 121 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 1: to keep your housewarm, you have to be industrious and 122 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 1: ship on your ship to not die. Right, Okay, that 123 00:06:50,279 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: makes that makes sense then for the region, Yeah, it 124 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:56,520 Speaker 1: really does. Um Melville's parents were bootmakers and bootsellers. Now, 125 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: some sources will claim that they were the hardest working 126 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 1: people in town, although it's quite likely this has its 127 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: origin in the various hagiographies of Dewey rather than an 128 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: objective reality like that. I mean, that just sounds like 129 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: an American origin story. Yeah, they were the best, that 130 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 1: they were the hardest workers in the town. And you know, 131 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: maybe it's because he said that, and that's just he 132 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,080 Speaker 1: was the only person from his town who lived long 133 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,239 Speaker 1: enough that people cared about what he said about the best. 134 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, as we all know, in this era, 135 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: the best and the most shoes were coming out of 136 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: my hometown, Brockton, Massachusetts, ak shoe city. So it's kind 137 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 1: of hard to say that they were because it sho shoes. 138 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: It's Roberto like my assum So, his parents were not 139 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: very affectionate or emotionally engaged, and do we inherited from 140 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: them a maniacal work ethic and what some might call 141 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: a romotic attitude towards productivity. And efficiency. Um right here, Yeah, 142 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: he's one of these people who's just like he's like 143 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: a machine the way that he works. Um now it 144 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: age five, he took it upon himself to take an 145 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: inventory of his mother's spice cabinet. He decided that she 146 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: was basically a messy motherfucker and like, this isn't efficient 147 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: at all. You've done a terrible job of organizing your 148 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: spice cabinet, mom, And it's a five year old He 149 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: rearranges everything without asking her. This is the first story 150 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: you'll hear about what will become a lifelong predilection for 151 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: what he called self improvement activities. He's obsessed with organizing things, 152 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,600 Speaker 1: making them more efficient. And I wonder if that is 153 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,080 Speaker 1: actually true, because that does it just sounds like something 154 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: you would make up about the guy who would go 155 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: on to invent the Dewey decimal system so he couldn't 156 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: stop organizing things. It's like when you find out Chucky 157 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: Cheese was an orphan and you're like, yeah, well that's 158 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: an interesting Charles Alexander, Charles Entertainment Chess. Yes, he was annoyed, 159 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: and then he became a rat who smoked a cigar. 160 00:08:51,720 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: You know, classic American origin story. Yeah, really really evidence 161 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: of yes, sorry, do you think he was organizing spy 162 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: says or do you think that that's kind of like 163 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: a sythology. So I have to think back to our 164 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: Jeff Bezos episodes, which kind of start with very similar 165 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 1: stories about him when he's like seven or eight years 166 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,359 Speaker 1: old doing this stuff like, um, like grading his teachers 167 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: and his his parents and like this very analytical like 168 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: and you know, it's the same question I have with Bezos. 169 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: I think it's a little more likely that the stories 170 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: are real just because you hear them from like they 171 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: come from people who were like his adults around him 172 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 1: when he was a kid. Um. But so I don't know, 173 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: like maybe do we made them up? But also like 174 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: maybe he and Bezos are just kind of similar people 175 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: and there's kids who have that kind of mind. Um. 176 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 1: But I think the fact that Dewey and Bezos that 177 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: like the there's elements of their childhood of like their 178 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: behind their childhood isn't similar because do we grows up 179 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: in a very difficult part of the world and Bezos 180 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: does not. But they both kind of have this organization 181 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: brain where they're they're kind of obsessed with efficiency. Um, 182 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: that does sound kind similar to me, and I kind 183 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,200 Speaker 1: of am inclined to think that there might be some 184 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: truth to the spice cabinet story, just because yeah, there's 185 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: there's there's people like that, you know. Um maybe um. Now, 186 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:13,319 Speaker 1: his parents were successful enough that they could afford to 187 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: pay him for doing his chores. The first product he 188 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: remembered saving up to buy with his money was an 189 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: unabridged dictionary, which he had to walk ten miles in 190 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: order to purchase. Now, a weird kid, That part of 191 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: the story maybe apocryphal, the ten miles part, because Dewey 192 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 1: was obsessed with the number ten, and he may have 193 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 1: retroactively inserted it into his past and later recollections because 194 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: he was just like absolutely obsessed with the number ten 195 00:10:37,720 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: um and with like decimals with based to like all 196 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: this kind of stuffy fucking loves ten, big, big huge 197 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: ten nerd Um. Yeah. As a teenager, Melville extended his 198 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: organizational mind to the family business. From a nineteen eighty 199 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,360 Speaker 1: one right up in the Wilson Library bulletin quote, he 200 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: made a thorough analysis of his father's store, proved its 201 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: business of inefficiencies, and made arrangements for the transfer of 202 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: its inventory to its competitor down the street. Apparently, Joel 203 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: Dewey accepted his son's criticism. He closed the store. So 204 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: his dad both made shoes and stole them. And Dewey's like, 205 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 1: this isn't deficient. You should just be making shoes. You're 206 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 1: not good at selling them. Like, let's have a competitor 207 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: on the streets sell the shoes, and Folcus entirely on 208 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: manufacturing and for whatever whatever else is going on. His 209 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: dad is like, yeah, I guess that makes sense. For 210 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: some reason, I do believe that over the Sun story, 211 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: because I feel like there are some parents that I 212 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,200 Speaker 1: don't know. I'd like did My parents were asking me 213 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: for a marriage advice way too young, and like they 214 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: were just like, do you how do you feel about 215 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:39,320 Speaker 1: how this is? And I'm like, well, I'm six and 216 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: I'm not having a good time, you know. Yeah, yeah, 217 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:44,360 Speaker 1: I mean my parents asked me if they should cash 218 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: their four one case out to buy beanie babies, and 219 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: I said absolutely. He said yes, this bubble never gonna burst, baby, 220 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: And that's why you're the world's most famous economists. That's 221 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: why I got them putting all their money into n 222 00:11:55,040 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: F t s now, you know, stop it. So high 223 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: school is when Dewey grew first grew obsessed with the 224 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: number ten um, and it was he learned about So 225 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: he's in high school and he learns about the metric 226 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:09,600 Speaker 1: system and he's just like, oh, this is so much 227 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: better than the way that we count things in America. 228 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: I fucking love the metric system. Um. The thing that 229 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: was particularly striking to him was that his birthday was 230 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: December one, which was exactly fifty two years after the 231 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 1: French Assembly adopted the meter bar as a standard unit 232 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: of measurement. I don't know why he found that meaningful, 233 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 1: but he found that intensely meaningful. Whatever, go figure out how, Like, 234 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, that's an important moment in 235 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: the development of the metric system, like deciding what a 236 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: meter is. Like that that is meaningful. I feel like 237 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: that's like his version of astrology. Though some people have 238 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: moments with astrology where they're like, yes, this means this, 239 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: means this means this and and this is just like 240 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: his weirdo version of that. Yeah, he just he fucking 241 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: loves the metric system. He loves decimate ship, he loves 242 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,559 Speaker 1: the number ten he's just that's he's a it's a 243 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: thing for him. Uh, that's his father's son. Holy ghost. Yeah, 244 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: it's fine. Um. When he was sixteen, Melville started attending 245 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,720 Speaker 1: the Hungerford Collegiate Institute, which is a college prep school. Now, 246 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: this is a period kind of the mid to late 247 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. This is when college starts to become vastly 248 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: more common. Right, for a long time, it had just 249 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:19,960 Speaker 1: a bit like you had if you were very rich 250 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: and powerful, if you were in the aristocracy, you would 251 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: go to college and like a man obviously, Um, the 252 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds is when that starts to change and college 253 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: become something that like the middle class and like people 254 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: who are rich but not of the aristocracy can reasonably 255 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: expect to experience. The number of colleges a second week. 256 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: We extorted every class for this semi useful thing. I 257 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: don't know if they're even extorting because right like it 258 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 1: is I think more reasonably. I don't know how it 259 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: is at this point. I know when my parents went 260 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: to college, it was the kind of thing you could 261 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: accidentally pay for if you had a decent job bart it. 262 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: My parents went to school. Yeah, the number I think 263 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: it is. I don't think it's quite I think it 264 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: is still pretty ex at that point. Obviously there's not 265 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: as many colleges. The number of colleges actually doubles in 266 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: the first half of the eighteen hundreds, um And so 267 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: by the time Melville starts prep school, it's become much 268 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: more common to go to college, but it was still 269 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,439 Speaker 1: not the norm for teen boys to prepare for higher learning. 270 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: In fact, the fact that he goes to high school 271 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: means that he's gotten more in education than most kids 272 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: probably could expect to get in the United States. My 273 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: fucking grandfather never made it past the fourth grade because 274 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: the Great Depression happened right like that wasn't abnormal in 275 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: that period. Um. So the fact the fact that he 276 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: makes it to this is both the mark of the 277 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 1: fact that his family has some money. They're certainly not rich, 278 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: but like they're comfortable enough that they can afford the sacrifice. 279 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: And also he's obviously brilliant. You do not, in this 280 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: period of time just for bragging rights put your kid 281 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: in this kind of program. You do it if they're like, well, 282 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:52,960 Speaker 1: this this kid has a mind that everyone around us 283 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: has noted, and we have to get him into a college. 284 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 1: This kid's doing ship with spices since he was spic 285 00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: get in a program. Yeah. So during his first year 286 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: of prep school there's a terrible fire in the building, 287 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: and do he risks his life to rescue not other classmates, 288 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: but as many armloads of books as he could manage. Um. 289 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: And he almost dies doing this. Like that's how dedicated 290 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: this kid is to books, which I do find admirable. Honestly, 291 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: I wouldn't rescue people first, but I don't know that 292 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: I was going to say, I mean, there is an 293 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: asterisk but that. But you know, at its core they 294 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: may have all gotten out. I didn't hear that anyone 295 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 1: died in the fire. I don't know that he was 296 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: running past people who are I'm kicking people to get 297 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: we got to get these R. L Stein's out of here. 298 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: He was an author the right Yeah absolutely, Um. But yeah, 299 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 1: he inhales enough smokes, saving as much of the library 300 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,680 Speaker 1: as he could that he gets bedridden for like six months. Um. 301 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: And his doctor actually warns his parents that he's probably 302 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 1: going to die. Obviously he does not. Are you're really 303 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: going to be like a great person one day quote 304 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: unquote if you don't have a long childhood illness that 305 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: is such a common thing. You just got in bed 306 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: and be like, Wow, life really is fragile, isn't it, 307 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 1: And then you go on to do the most horrific 308 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: ship you can think of. Yeah, I think it, Like, 309 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: I think it's worth noting that. Like I think probably 310 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: most kids have a near death experience in the in 311 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: the midstruments, you know, would I would have such um, 312 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: I would have such a failure complex if I had 313 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: a long childhood illness and then went on to be 314 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: a regular person, because it just seems like you have 315 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: to be like Proust after that. I don't. Yeah, that's 316 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: the only way. That's why we have so many proofts. 317 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: So for do Wey, this experience drives home the almighty 318 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: importance of efficiency. He believes that death could come at 319 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: any time, which obviously it can um, and you needed 320 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: to get as much done as possible before you die. 321 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: Before he graduates from high school, do he gives a 322 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 1: speech to his classmates about how wasting time is immoral. 323 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: As a graduation present, he buys himself projects No, it's 324 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 1: not um. As a graduation present, he buys himself cuff 325 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: links inscribed with the letter are, which meant reformer. Um 326 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: so there you go. Okay, I'm gonna teach her that 327 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: says I'm going to get a buncho as. I'm like, 328 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: because I'm Sam, that's what a what a weird man? 329 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: All right, he's he's he's a weird man. Um also like, whatever, 330 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,439 Speaker 1: nothing bad yet, Yeah, I'm just I'm just hearing a 331 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: weird teenagers on weird He's he's definitely a little bit 332 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,240 Speaker 1: of a weird dnager. Right, Yeah, a weird virgin is 333 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: on the loose, which does not usually lead to good things. 334 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: I will say, oh, read it's gonna get angry at 335 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: that one. Jamie cut it out, Chris cut it out, 336 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,679 Speaker 1: cut it out it out. I don't want them to 337 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: get mad and read it gets angry about Jamie. The 338 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 1: products and services this podcast. They do probably mean. Please 339 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: don't yell at me read it. I'm sorry I called 340 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: weird virgins. Jamie loves virgins. I know. I don't say 341 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: do whatever you want, do whatever, don't do whatever you want, 342 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,680 Speaker 1: or don't do whatever you want. Sure, and now I'm 343 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: flashing my r cuff links so you know that I'm serious. 344 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: There you go, all right, here's some ads. Oh, man, 345 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: we are are some products. Those those were some products, 346 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,879 Speaker 1: and it might have been a service or service or two. 347 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 1: To be honest, I can't can't can't say it. There's 348 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: certain I can't say it wasn't a service or two. 349 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: You know that that I certainly wouldn't argue. We've got 350 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: a teen on the loose. We got a teen on 351 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: the loose. Melville Dewey is out in the motherfucking wild, 352 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 1: and by the wild, I mean Alfred University. UM. That's 353 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,360 Speaker 1: where he gets accepted after high school. Before he leaves home, 354 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 1: he changes his name from Melville m E l v 355 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 1: I l l E. You know the way that people 356 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: spell Melville to M E l v I l, which 357 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:04,719 Speaker 1: he considered more efficient. No, oh, this goes real far, Jamie. Yeah, 358 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 1: trimmed off the letters. He trimmed off two letters. Do 359 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: you have to make it more efficient? You don't need 360 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: that last. You can pronounce Melville fine without them. It's synetically, 361 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,360 Speaker 1: it still works. It's just wasted time and space. I'm 362 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 1: kind of loving him. It's very funny at this phase 363 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: in his life. I feel like we would have been 364 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,119 Speaker 1: friends in high school. I feel like I would have 365 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: been exhausted by him, but I am exhausted by him 366 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: just reading about him. So as a university student, he 367 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: continues his old habits. He was offended by the fact 368 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: that many of his classmates smoked cigars, which he thought 369 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: was financially inefficient, and he calculated that their smoking habits 370 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 1: would cost them each in average of fifteen thousand dollars 371 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: over the course of a lifetime. He tried to tell 372 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: people this, but I don't think it actually made anyone 373 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: stop smoking. Um No, it just got his as beat. 374 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: It's where Bezos did kind of the same thing with 375 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 1: his fucking grandma. U right, yeah, yeah, Jesus, it's just this, 376 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: like just let people do It's it's the eighteen fucking 377 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:12,400 Speaker 1: what's like sixties? Like life is terrible. Smoke cigars, yeah, top, 378 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,920 Speaker 1: and it's gonna suck for most of that m They're 379 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: not going to live long enough to get throat cancer. 380 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 1: Come on, they're gonna die because they touched a nail wrong. 381 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 1: So at any rate do we quickly transferred to Amherst College. 382 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: Um he was inspired by their physical education program, which 383 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: was one of the best in the world. But once 384 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: he gets there, he doesn't actually enroll in any sports classes. 385 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: The only athletic course he took was horseback riding because 386 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: it was more efficient, because it would get him to 387 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 1: class fester, Oh my god, which is like a weird 388 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: series of decisions to make. I mean, I I love 389 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:54,440 Speaker 1: a singular goal. This one is gonna you can already 390 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,679 Speaker 1: tell the goal of efficiency is gonna is gonna slide 391 00:20:57,680 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 1: at some point and get very scary, but right now 392 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: it's still fun. I would also argue that horseback riding 393 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: isn't a sport. Look, there are two sports. One of 394 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,679 Speaker 1: them is that that game they play in Afghanistan with 395 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: goat heads on horseback where they kill each other sometimes, 396 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: and the other is I don't know, hot dog eating. 397 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: Hot dog eating. Those are the nothing else is a sport, 398 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: and fuck you if you disagree. You know, That's what 399 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 1: I gotta say. So the official stance pe does not 400 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,159 Speaker 1: wind up appealing to him in practice. But Amherst had 401 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: another boom, another boon for him. It had a kind 402 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: of shitty library that didn't have enough employees to keep 403 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 1: it organized. And this is sort of this thing that 404 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: you've seen a lot of really successful people where they 405 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 1: find like a system they're interested in and they find 406 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: like it's not being it's like they find it neglected. 407 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 1: I think if he'd gone to a college with a 408 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,879 Speaker 1: better library, his life might have been totally different. But 409 00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,120 Speaker 1: the best thing that happens is that Amherst Library kind 410 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: of sucks um and it's kind of underfunded because they're 411 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,000 Speaker 1: so into PE. So he's able to apply for a 412 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: job there and he gets one and immediately sets to 413 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: forming the way the library is organized. This is like 414 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: a hugely influential part of his life that Amherst hadn't 415 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: much time to do it. So he started this as 416 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 1: a teenager. Yeah, I mean I think, yeah, he's got 417 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,120 Speaker 1: to be like nineteen or twenty, you know, um when 418 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: when he gets into this. And I'm going to read 419 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: a quote from that right up in the Wilson Library bulletin, 420 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: and that era library books often were housed according to 421 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: a numbering system that indicated the floor, aisle, section, and 422 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: shelf on which they were stored. Whenever rearrangement was necessary, 423 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,480 Speaker 1: all of the books had to be reclassified, perceiving the 424 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,920 Speaker 1: amount of time wasted not only in finding books when 425 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: they were needed, but in theirs necessary and frequently reclassification. 426 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 1: Dewey was determined to devise a simple, workable, and permanent 427 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: classification system. While attending a chapel service at Amherst, he 428 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,119 Speaker 1: suddenly conceived of the idea of using a system of 429 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 1: Arabic numerals with decimals for book classification. The scope of 430 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: the plan put all printed human knowledge into the tin 431 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: classifications of a numerical system ranging from zero zero zero 432 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: to nine hundred, and made use of his decimals with 433 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: within each group as we're needed to define adequately the 434 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: content of the book being classified. I mean, I'm guessing 435 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: with the way like Bible versus or number that that 436 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: started this, Like that would be my guest as to 437 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: why it happens in the chapel. But this is like 438 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: it makes sense. You know, he's the guy. It makes 439 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: sense based on what we know of his path his childhood, 440 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: that like this is the thing he decides to do. 441 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: It literally sounds like the culmination of everything he's given 442 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: a shit about his entire life. Yeah, yeah, Now. Dewey 443 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: was twenty one years old when he invented the Dewey 444 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: decimal system. Um. He was very quickly people very immediately recognized, oh, 445 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: this is a way better way to have a library 446 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: to be organized, and he's given a job was organized before. 447 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: Um yeah, I just said that, like it's like the 448 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: kind of the previous way. Okay, Yeah. The previous way 449 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: was like books, Like books had a numbering system that 450 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,640 Speaker 1: like tells you where in the library, in that specific 451 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 1: library they were stored, which meant that like when you 452 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: you have to reclassify everything regularly when you change the library, 453 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: or like if you get a bunch of new stuff, 454 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,239 Speaker 1: and like every library he has a different system, so 455 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: you never know where to find things if you go 456 00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: from one library or the other. It's a totally different system. Um. Okay, 457 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: so this it's just like standardized it than anything could 458 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,040 Speaker 1: use it. Yeah, standardizes it. It makes it much simpler, um, 459 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,959 Speaker 1: and easier for anyone to find books. If you know, 460 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: you don't have to know the library. If you know 461 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: the system, you can find the books right. Um. And 462 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: every people at Amherst like are immediately like, oh, this 463 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 1: is a great idea. Um. So he he's given a job, 464 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: he's like promoted and is now like helping to run 465 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: the entire library, and he spends the next couple of 466 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: years refining his idea until he was ready to patent 467 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: it in eighteen seventy six. Dewey's innovation was immediately appreciated, 468 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: and his forty page manifesto spread rapidly among institutes of 469 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 1: higher learning, who adopted it one by one. Um, so, 470 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 1: so far, so good, right, Like, he comes up with 471 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,199 Speaker 1: a better way to make libraries be organized. Everybody is 472 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: pretty much instantly like, well, this is great, and they 473 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's it's we still have, you know, 474 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 1: efficiency manifesto there, but yes, yeah, I'm not saying he 475 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: would have been a fun dude at a party, but like, 476 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: it's so far pretty reasonable in terms of the work. 477 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: It seems like he's doing good. Yeah, nobody has any 478 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 1: qualms with Dewey at this point. Here's the problem though, Um, 479 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: and this is a problem with the system he devises. 480 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: I don't know how much you want to categorize it 481 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:16,719 Speaker 1: as a moral problem, because a lot of this is 482 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: the result of where the culture he's raised in. Where 483 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: do moral problems go in the Dewey decimal system. We're 484 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: about to talk about that a lot. So no, do 485 00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: we didn't just see himself as creating a way to 486 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: organize knowledge. Um, the system he devised was deeply tied 487 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: in with his beliefs about hierarchy. And I'm gonna quote 488 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 1: from the website book Riot here. It's important to remember 489 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: the reasons that Dewey wanted public libraries to be a 490 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: thing in the first place. He was no altruist. He 491 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 1: believed that people in concepts belonged in certain places in society, 492 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: and that in those places they must stay. Poor people, 493 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: for example, needed to be content with non unionized factory work. 494 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,439 Speaker 1: Christianity was the only real religion. As for non white people, 495 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: was there really a need to address them at all? Now? 496 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: These are not radical beliefs at the time, um, but 497 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,160 Speaker 1: do we status as an innovator allowed him to codify 498 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: them into the structure of libraries. And we can see 499 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: this today and how the Dewey decimal system treats religions. 500 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: Book Riot continues quote. The two hundreds encompass all religion nominally, 501 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 1: although the problems with this premise are obvious. Each Dewey 502 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: heading encompasses ten major subjects, dividing each up by sub 503 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 1: topics that add digits to the end of the number. 504 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: Six of the ten subjects, and the two hundreds are 505 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: explicitly for Christianity related subjects. Three of those remaining are 506 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: either explicitly or implicitly Judeo Christian. Finally, at the bottom 507 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: of the heap, the two nineties cover other religions. Islam, Bahi, 508 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: and bobb is Um all get to share Tweeven Germanic 509 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: religions get two nine three. All religions of Indic origins. 510 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: In other words, Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism get to share 511 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: tune ninety four. Hinduism gets all of tune ninety four 512 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: point five to itself. How generous tune covers everything else. 513 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: And we're going to focus on this a bit because 514 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: it's the most glaring example of racism in the Dewey 515 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: decimal system. You see where I'm going with this. Religions 516 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: do we associated with people of color ended up with 517 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: way less space than the real faith? Not convinced, Fine, 518 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,480 Speaker 1: there's a section in the two just for black people. 519 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:20,280 Speaker 1: The entire point six subdivision is for religions originating among 520 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: Black Africans and people of Black African descent. In fact, 521 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 1: everything about African religion of Haitians in Haiti can be 522 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: fit into two ninety nine six point six o nine 523 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: seven two nine four according to the dds, because at 524 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: some point someone for some reason decided that Haitian religions 525 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: originating from black people were not as important as Germanic 526 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,639 Speaker 1: religions originating from white ones. Well, it's like we know 527 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: who decided that. Correct parts of it where I don't 528 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,879 Speaker 1: even think he thought about Haitian religions, right, So, like 529 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: he devises the system, aspects of it are kind of 530 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: like hotified by other people, but he does kind of 531 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: start this trend. This assassinating because it's like we've we've 532 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: both walked past this problem a million times and never 533 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: considered it. This is like, yeah, the biases are so 534 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 1: so glaring. Wow, Okay, sorry, continue. This is why. And 535 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: I've heard it argue that this is less of an 536 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: issue now um for a variety of reasons, largely due 537 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,400 Speaker 1: to computers in the way that's kind of changed how 538 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: how libraries work. But for decades, book catalogers would have 539 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: to print or write the actual numbers of the Dewey 540 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,439 Speaker 1: numbers on the spine of a book. It was rarely 541 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,880 Speaker 1: practical to write a cutter number as long as say 542 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: point six o nine seven to nine four. Right, you 543 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,879 Speaker 1: just don't have the room, so catalogers would shop that 544 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: number down to three or four digits. So a book 545 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: about Haitian religion would get sliced down to two dots 546 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: six O nine or two nine nine dot six, which 547 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: would mean it gets lumped in with all black religions. 548 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: Now this is gross, but it also has really practical concerns. Quote. 549 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: Once local cataloging conventions reduce it to two nine nine 550 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: dot six O nine or two dot six, it's author's 551 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 1: last name will determine where it goes on the shelf. 552 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: At that point, it won't be with other books about 553 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: Haitian religion, so people who look for it will need 554 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: to comb through every book about black non Abrahamic religions 555 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: alphabetically by author. Instead of using the system as a 556 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: discovery tool, they'll need to know exactly what they're looking for, 557 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: right down to the correct spelling of the author's last name. Thus, 558 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: do people of color get lost in the Dewey system? 559 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: The problem with the two hundreds occurs again and the 560 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 1: three hundreds, where almost everything about people of color can 561 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: be classified under three oh five dot eight ethnic and 562 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: national groups within this subheading Germanic peoples again get a 563 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: relatively clean cutter three oh five dot eight two to 564 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: be exact. Meanwhile, three oh five dot eight nine five 565 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: covers all East and South Asian people's You can probably 566 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: extrapolate the problems with stuff in close to people one 567 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: little with literally hundreds of yeah. Yeah, this is truly fascinating. 568 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's like, if you think about it for 569 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: a minute, you're like, oh, of course colonialism and like 570 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: all of this person's like deeply held prejudices are naturally 571 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: filtering into this system. But it's just not one I've 572 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: ever thought about for more than a minute. I guess 573 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:05,440 Speaker 1: it's the kind of thing. It is the kind of 574 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: thing when we talk about, like what makes someone a 575 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: bastard does His goal was not to exclude people of color. 576 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: His goal was not to reinforce racism. He was just 577 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: trying to organize books. And he was also a guy 578 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: who because like just did not think about this kind 579 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: of thing. And it was because he was very much 580 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,959 Speaker 1: in the biases of the system. He was not I 581 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: believe he was not in this. He was not being 582 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 1: actively racist. It's more a matter of like because of 583 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: who he is and the culture he comes from, and 584 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: the fact that he's very much bought into that culture. 585 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: He doesn't think about any of these things, and his 586 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: racism winds up getting in like like winds up being 587 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: part of structurally the system that organizes libraries. I mean, 588 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: it's like a different kind of insidious because yeah, I 589 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: I agree with that. It's like it doesn't sound like 590 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: anything at least anything he's not like. This is not 591 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: the result of him being hateful. It's a result of 592 00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 1: like he just doesn't think about these people, you know. 593 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 1: And yeah, and it's I feel like it's a strong 594 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: case for why systems like this. And obviously it's like it's, uh, 595 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: we talked about systemic racism. This is like what we're 596 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: talking about one of the systems like this. It can't 597 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: be just one guy making them, because then it's just 598 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 1: going to reflect the worldview of one guy. Like yeah, 599 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: and this is this is and it's I'm kind of 600 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: making this. I'm not trying to like we need to 601 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: be fair to do it. I'm trying to say, like 602 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: this alone, I wouldn't have a behind the bastards on Dewey. 603 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Even though this is a really signal probably some of 604 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: the bastards we've done have done have contributed less evil 605 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: to the world than this kind of structural racism and 606 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 1: the system, intentionally or not. But there was no, There 607 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: was no There needs to be some sort of intent, 608 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,240 Speaker 1: some sort of actual evil for me to like really 609 00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: want to dig into someone in this way, and that's coming. 610 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: That is not this part of it, because again this 611 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: is more the result of just he's a racist like 612 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,719 Speaker 1: everyone else, but not hateful. I will say that I 613 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: did read the first paragraph of his Wikipedia page, and 614 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,760 Speaker 1: I feel like I have a little sharkutie board of 615 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: what's to come, some fun stuff. Jamie, Wow, Wow, Wow, 616 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: does the Does that paragraph end? Not like I was expecting. 617 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: It's It's quite a tale, the story of Melville Dewey. 618 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,520 Speaker 1: So obviously this is when we talk about the harms. 619 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: Do we perpetuated? This is the big one, right, and 620 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: this is really a really significant harm um. But we 621 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: haven't got to the part yet where he is choosing 622 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: actively to hurt people. That's a coming. So in eighteen 623 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: seventy six, do we left Amherst for Boston. By this point, 624 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: his interest and efficiency had expanded to developing an entirely new, 625 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: more efficient system of spelling, which he claimed could cut 626 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: three years off from the time necessary to educate a child. 627 00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: He wrote in one paper, and I'm going to I'm 628 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 1: going to read what he's saying first, and then I'm 629 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: going to read how it's spelled. Okay, he wrote, just 630 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: think of what else you could learn in those years, 631 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: and he spelled it J S T think is spelled normally, 632 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: of has spelled U V and stead of O F, 633 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: which I don't understand how that's more efficient. What is 634 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,760 Speaker 1: spelled w A T. Else is spelled E L S. 635 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: You is of course spelled with just the letter you 636 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,720 Speaker 1: could have spelled C U, D learn and in this 637 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 1: are spelled normally, and then those have spelled th H 638 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: O Z years is y R. So like a lot 639 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,800 Speaker 1: of it is him like texting basically, I think that's 640 00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: sound duller. It's really funny. So like the library guy 641 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: like spells like a sixteen year old texting in two 642 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: thousand four, it's very funny here in a Littlita fashion block. 643 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: It's extremely funny, funny. All of his personal letters are 644 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: like this. They all read like he's a high school 645 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 1: student when like Hannah Montana is on TV, like it's 646 00:33:53,720 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: very funny what's up Melville here? Um, Actually, that's so, 647 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,800 Speaker 1: it's extremely funny. Um, it's extremely funny that, like the 648 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 1: father of libraries, hated spelling with a passion. Um. I 649 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: think that's see, that's the kind of edge lord attitude 650 00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: I can get behind. And you'll notice here again he's 651 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: spelled of O f UV, which isn't more efficient. But 652 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,640 Speaker 1: that's the reason he hated the original spelling of because 653 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: his issue with English isn't just that it's an efficient. 654 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: He also doesn't like the way a lot of words 655 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: are spelled. He doesn't think it makes any sense that 656 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: that's a reasonable argument, though, yeah, I mean sure, yeah. 657 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: In eight six he creates a group called the Spelling 658 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: Reform Association out of a desire to regularize Americans spell 659 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: the line. That's the line right, that's a bit much 660 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: the spelling reformer. I mean, it was spelled normally where 661 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: I found it. But I'm sure he had his ideas 662 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: that there are emojis. Yeah, very funny. He would have 663 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: loved emojis. This is so efficient. He would have loved 664 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:13,280 Speaker 1: He's like an entire emotion for Italians. In this quest, 665 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 1: he was less successful. People do not jump on the 666 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 1: spell like Melville Dewey train. At one point, Dewey shortens 667 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,160 Speaker 1: his surname to d u I, which he has to 668 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: give up I think because his bank won't recognize his 669 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: checks um. But it's funny, like, theoretically, if people had 670 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: agreed to let him do this, we would we would 671 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: all be talking about the d U I decimal system, 672 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: which I find funny. That is funny, and it also 673 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 1: is I mean, I feel like again it's like he's 674 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: just so wildly ahead of his time in naming conventions 675 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: and spelling specifically because he's you're describing like internet talk 676 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: and like how he would have been on the internet. Yeah, 677 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: he would have been a great SoundCloud rapper for sure. 678 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: I think that that's safe to say. Yes, for sure. Yeah, 679 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: he and x x X Tentation whatever that guy's name was, 680 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,919 Speaker 1: would have been best. No, they wouldn't. He very racist? Um, 681 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:10,160 Speaker 1: so she the story please? Yeah. Melville launches a company 682 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: to sell library supplies, including the hanging vertical file. Is 683 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: when he moves to Boston. Um, and he innvinced the 684 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: hanging vertical file, which is a big part of the 685 00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: kind of I think. Yeah. Um, in his first year 686 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: in the city, he organized a librarian convention that led 687 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,880 Speaker 1: directly to the founding of the American Library Association which exists, 688 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: which exists to this day. He helps to found the 689 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 1: a l a UM. The convention is where he meets 690 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,000 Speaker 1: his wife, Annie Godfrey, who is a librarian from Wells 691 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: Wellesley University. Now, the fact that he meets his wife 692 00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,879 Speaker 1: at a professional convention as a co worker, and then, 693 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: like hits On Aaron, marries her was not seen as 694 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 1: problematic at the time. UM, But I did find an 695 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: excerpt from a glowing right up in nine of Melville 696 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: Dewey that talks about this and has what you might 697 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 1: notice some red flag egs in it. O do we 698 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: attended the event, as did Annie Godfrey, the librarian at 699 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 1: Wellesley College. The single purposed business like Mr Dewey did 700 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: not surprise those of his acquaintance who recognized him as 701 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: a ladies man when he later married this young woman. 702 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: Now one, none of the bad stuff about Dewey is 703 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: really popularly talked about. He's still kind of louded as 704 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 1: the hero of library world, but as a general rule 705 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: not always because to talk about Jeff Bezos met his 706 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 1: wife at work. She insists she was the one who 707 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,120 Speaker 1: started things. I've never heard any evidence of him being 708 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: creepy to people at work. Bill Gates, on the other hand, 709 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,439 Speaker 1: also meets his wife at work. A ton of woman 710 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: found him very creepy at work. There is no shortage there, 711 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: so just the fact that he meets his wife at 712 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: a library convintion not inherently creepy, but spoilers. He's a 713 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 1: creepy sex best Um Yeah, yeah, yeah, he is not 714 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: a ladies man. He is a sexual harasser. But but 715 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: I do I do hear you? I mean, I think 716 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:59,160 Speaker 1: that ladies man was code for sexual harass, probably fair 717 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: to say very recently, maybe the past five years even. Yeah, 718 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 1: now I get ahead of myself a little bit, though, 719 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: so do we founds the American Library Journal around the 720 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 1: same time, which he edits and his ideas through this 721 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 1: journal kind of sweep through the field. He continues after 722 00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:17,799 Speaker 1: starting the decimal system to have a huge influence on 723 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: the because this is the period in which libraries are 724 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 1: really becoming like a thing in public and not just 725 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: in the United States, and he is maybe the most 726 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: influential person in this period is gen Z. But he's 727 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: gonna get canceled. He's boys, he gonna get canceled, Jamie, 728 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 1: what happened? Well, well, we'll get into the way to 729 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:45,279 Speaker 1: the way he gets canceled. It's pretty remarkable. Um So, 730 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: pretty soon though, his ideas sweep the field, and in 731 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 1: quick order, his decimal system and his other innovations are standard, 732 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: not just nationwide, but all over the world. It starts 733 00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: to happen in three He gets a job at Columbia 734 00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: University and he moves his family to New York so 735 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,439 Speaker 1: he could own to the Columbia School of Library Economy. Now, 736 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:06,799 Speaker 1: this was probably Dewey's great feminist icon moment because he 737 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: encourages women to apply to Columbia to become librarians, even 738 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: though women are banned from attending the school That eight night. Yeah, 739 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,560 Speaker 1: this nineteen eighty one article, the Wilson Library Bolton article, 740 00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,800 Speaker 1: which is very positive towards him. UM notes Dewey was 741 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,920 Speaker 1: firmly convinced that women were destined to become librarians, and 742 00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: that his goal was to help them achieve this destiny. 743 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: He simply ignored the rules, and he seemed oblivious to 744 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 1: the fact that his endeavor was further frowned upon because 745 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,239 Speaker 1: his enrollment questionnaire which obviously had not been screened by 746 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: higher authorities, required at information as to the applicants weight, height, 747 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: and color of hair and eyes, as well as the 748 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 1: suggestion that a photograph be included, you know, right. I 749 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,640 Speaker 1: was like, that's like, oh, he's fighting for women to 750 00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: be able to have a career. That's oh no, no, 751 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: no no. And so god, he's as fastening too, because 752 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 1: it's like, I mean, it's just it just takes one 753 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 1: pervert to change an industry, doesn't it, Because you do 754 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 1: like associate I feel like almost, I mean, I oh, 755 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: I at least associate librarian as a traditionally feminine job, 756 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: a highly skilled job and requires a lot of training 757 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: and degrees. And it's because he was horny. It's because 758 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:23,879 Speaker 1: he's horny. One could argue it's broadly speaking positive that 759 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,880 Speaker 1: he's this horny weirdo and thus does this likery for 760 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: good represented. I wouldn't say he's I would say that accidentally, 761 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 1: the outcome of this is more positive than negative. And 762 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: this is stating the obvious. But systemically, someone shouldn't have 763 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 1: some weird guys shouldn't have to get horny for women 764 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: to get a college, and of course not of course not, 765 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,799 Speaker 1: but I see what you're saying. Yeah, And when he's 766 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 1: asked to explain why he requires photographs for applicants to 767 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,360 Speaker 1: the library program, his explanation is, you cannot polish a pumpkin. 768 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,720 Speaker 1: Can you unpack that for me? Yeah, if they're ugly, 769 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: he doesn't want to. That's means uh. There. That reminds 770 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: me of when I was working on a Cathy podcast. 771 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,600 Speaker 1: There there was like this whole and this is like 772 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: talk from like the seventies and eighties, like this whatever, 773 00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: This attitude existed until very recently of like secretaries, also 774 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: like front facing skilled jobs that are underpaid and traditionally 775 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: by women, and like, yeah, this whole concept of like 776 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,880 Speaker 1: you have to have a front desk, look like you 777 00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: have to, like you looking good makes the whole business 778 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:34,759 Speaker 1: more appealing, even though it's like, well, you're just you're 779 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 1: doing a skilled job. You shouldn't have to also worry 780 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,880 Speaker 1: about making some weird guy horny and dealing. But it 781 00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 1: sounds like that's going to be a big problem, right, Yeah, 782 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: nobody nobody asks me to look nice to do my job. 783 00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:51,799 Speaker 1: I do, but you ignore it. I definitely do. I 784 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: keep sending you emails. I should be fired. I'm like 785 00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 1: rumbling piece of ship most days. So the fact that 786 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 1: Melville do we decided that women were destined to be 787 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: librarians had a number of reverberating positive impacts for generations. 788 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: The field was a way for independent women to find 789 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 1: work in a way to support themselves independent of a 790 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: father or a husband. The career field provided opportunities for 791 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,040 Speaker 1: single women and mothers, like a lot of I think 792 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,720 Speaker 1: a lot of women who are like, um, not straight 793 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 1: are able to find ways to be more independent because 794 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,239 Speaker 1: this is a career path that are open to them. 795 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,560 Speaker 1: And to this day, about seventy of librarians or women 796 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,359 Speaker 1: like right, it's very positive that there is a professional, 797 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: reasonably well paid way job that is seen as like 798 00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: a job a woman can get. That. Isn't that like 799 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: that's good in this time higher education? Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah. 800 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,200 Speaker 1: And he does get fired from Columbia for accepting women 801 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: because that's not their policy. Um, Like, so he's horny, 802 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: he got fired. He was so horny he got fired 803 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,640 Speaker 1: for equality. Um and he's also like a suffrage advocate 804 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: later in life. Like that's not he's not I know, 805 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: I know he's not. Again, he's not all horny, but 806 00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 1: he's largely horny. Um, and he was. He was definitely 807 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:09,960 Speaker 1: not a believer in basic mental equality between men and women. Um. 808 00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 1: In an eighteen eighties six speech titled librarian ship as 809 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:16,439 Speaker 1: a profession for college bred women and we'll talk about 810 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: that term in a second, do we noted that while 811 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: women who had been bred well enough to get a 812 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 1: college education, we're intelligence there could be librarians. They were 813 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,880 Speaker 1: not reliable employees. He warned that they were likelier to 814 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:29,839 Speaker 1: get sick or to quit the job to pursue a 815 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,440 Speaker 1: home life. This wasn't a reason not to hire them, 816 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: he argued, but it was reason to pay them less 817 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: than men for the same work. He added that men 818 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: deserved more money because they were better able to quote 819 00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: lift a heavy, heavy calace or climate ladder. There were 820 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,319 Speaker 1: many uses for which a stout corduroy is really worth 821 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: more than the finest soak. Oh and also always says 822 00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 1: his like bigoted statement in the creepiest way, stout corduroy, 823 00:43:56,360 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: the finest silk corduroy and the finest silk. I'm like, God, 824 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to stop calling him a virgin, 825 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,759 Speaker 1: but like you know, he's married. I just, yeah, that's gross, 826 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: that's cool. It is it is. It is definitely a 827 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: way to describe your sexism that seems unique to me. 828 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:16,839 Speaker 1: I'm sure other dudes in the time we're doing it. 829 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: It's fascinating. I mean, speaking of Reddit, men on Reddit 830 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:26,360 Speaker 1: are describing genders like that as we speak, there their hands. 831 00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: I would have killed it. This guy would have killed 832 00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: it on the internet in all the worst ways. My 833 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:35,560 Speaker 1: question is, my question is how did like, how did 834 00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: that pay breakdown work? Do you have any information on that, 835 00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: like how much less were I I don't know someone 836 00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 1: specific breakdowns on this, And I don't think he was 837 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,080 Speaker 1: advocating in numbers. He was just saying like, of course 838 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,359 Speaker 1: you're not going to pay women as much. He was like, well, 839 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 1: obviously women shouldn't be paid equal for equal work, but 840 00:44:53,360 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: that don't because they can't lift She's now. Starting in 841 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,360 Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties and continuing for nearly half a century, 842 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: do we also engaged in a pattern of behavior against 843 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: his female colleagues that his biographer Wayne Wygand described as 844 00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: quote unwelcome hugging, unwelcome touching, and certainly unwelcome kissing in 845 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 1: a two eighteen interview with the American Libraries magazine, Wygand said, 846 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: this was there an element of power in his behavior. 847 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 1: There was, to my knowledge, he never squeezed a woman 848 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: who was his equal. It was usually subordinates. And when 849 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,759 Speaker 1: Wygan says equal, he's not being sexist. He's talking about 850 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,480 Speaker 1: like within the structures of the institutions. Right, So, not 851 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 1: only is he sexually harassing women, but he's only sexually 852 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,160 Speaker 1: harassing women who are lower positioned than him in the 853 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,960 Speaker 1: organizations that they work in. I mean, and not that 854 00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:49,320 Speaker 1: it's like that's obviously not because it's like you shouldn't 855 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:54,319 Speaker 1: sexually harass anyway, but that strategy to women who cannot retaliate, 856 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: that makes it more predatory, right, Like, it's more predatory 857 00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: if you are going if you are thinking about the 858 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:03,879 Speaker 1: position of the women that you are sexually harassing, you know. Yeah, 859 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,640 Speaker 1: And I mean, and he's a very like I mean, 860 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:08,279 Speaker 1: just based on what we know about him and how 861 00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: his brain works, he's a very deliberate and strategic person. 862 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,359 Speaker 1: And I think it stands to reason that he would 863 00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,719 Speaker 1: have thought absolutely, yeah, this is further we don't have, 864 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: as you know, the kind of granular detail obviously you 865 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,799 Speaker 1: get about a guy like Harvey Weinstein and what he 866 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,640 Speaker 1: was doing, because this is happening in the eighteen eighties, 867 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, like you just don't have most of these reports. 868 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,759 Speaker 1: But the information we do get, I think makes it 869 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: clear that he is predatory in his behavior towards It 870 00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: feels like he feels like you should have his reports 871 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: because he writes like he's I am ng people, but 872 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: you don't. We do have a lot like it is. 873 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,600 Speaker 1: It is a mark of what a sexual harasser he 874 00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,279 Speaker 1: was that we have quite a bit of detail of 875 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: a guy sexually harassing women in the late eighteen hundreds 876 00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:52,240 Speaker 1: in earlier. This kind of unusual to year of sexual 877 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: harassis with detail from this era specific. And this is 878 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,080 Speaker 1: another important thing worth noting, the racism that kind of 879 00:46:58,080 --> 00:46:59,920 Speaker 1: gets baked into the Dewey decimal system that's in this 880 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: It is not exceptional for his time. The level to 881 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 1: which he sexually harasses women is seen by his peers 882 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,080 Speaker 1: as exceptional and unsettling. That in in the in the 883 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: late eighteen andreds yeah when they can't vote, yeah, and 884 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,760 Speaker 1: and other dudes are being like this guy is really 885 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,600 Speaker 1: not this is not okay, Like when their arms around 886 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:23,799 Speaker 1: their wives they forced to marry them, being like maybe 887 00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,360 Speaker 1: I'd never do that to you, Oh my god. Like 888 00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,759 Speaker 1: that is the kind of sexual harasser that he is. 889 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,759 Speaker 1: Like it is noted at the time as being exceptional. Um. 890 00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: In nine Yeah, in nineteen oh five, Millville takes a 891 00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: cruise to Alaska with a number of his colleagues at 892 00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,960 Speaker 1: the American Library Association. This is after a big convention. Um. 893 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,640 Speaker 1: The cruise was meant as a place for them to like, 894 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: they had this big convention. Now we're going to kind 895 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,760 Speaker 1: of start laying at our plans for next year. Um. 896 00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,280 Speaker 1: And over the course of a few days, Um, Dewey, 897 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,600 Speaker 1: who is I should note six ft tall, which is 898 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: very tall for the time, sexually harasses and like physically 899 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,279 Speaker 1: goes after four different female a LA members on a 900 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: cruise ship. Um. But now I do feel comforted by 901 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,479 Speaker 1: the fact that I'm the same high as him, because 902 00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,040 Speaker 1: I'm looking at a picture of him, So you could 903 00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:14,160 Speaker 1: kick his ass. No, not not even an issue, um, 904 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: because again, motherfucker didn't lift. Um. So over the course 905 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:24,560 Speaker 1: of the fact that he was a stout corduroy, the 906 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:28,279 Speaker 1: impact of Dewey's sexual harassment is perhaps best illustrated by 907 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: the story of Adelaide Hassum, who is to this like 908 00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 1: now a very influential fit like helps I think to 909 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:36,680 Speaker 1: a similar extent to do we build the concept of 910 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,919 Speaker 1: like how libraries function, what a librarian should do. There's 911 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:45,000 Speaker 1: like books about him. She's like a very influential female librarian. Um, yeah, 912 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean librarians, right, Like how much do you hear 913 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:53,200 Speaker 1: about influential librarians? But yeah, but we I think I 914 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,640 Speaker 1: think people might want to look into Adelaide hauss if 915 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,680 Speaker 1: you're interested in this history. Um. And she when early 916 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 1: on in her career she crossed his pass with Melville, 917 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:03,160 Speaker 1: also in nineteen o five, and I'm going to read 918 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,480 Speaker 1: a quote from history dot com about what happens next. 919 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: As a young woman, she struggled to be taken seriously 920 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,759 Speaker 1: by mostly male executive boards. She created a groundbreaking new 921 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,600 Speaker 1: way to classify government documents and was disappointed when a 922 00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:18,160 Speaker 1: male colleague claimed the credit. But armed with a new 923 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:20,560 Speaker 1: job at the New York Public Library, a better salary, 924 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,759 Speaker 1: and an ambitious new project, she finally felt optimistic about 925 00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,640 Speaker 1: her career. To pull off her newest plan, she'd need support, 926 00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,840 Speaker 1: so she approached the leading voice in the field Melville Dewey, 927 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,480 Speaker 1: a man whose innovations made him a household name. He 928 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: suggested they meet privately about her new project. Encouraged, she 929 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,320 Speaker 1: made her way to Albany, New York, only to find 930 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,080 Speaker 1: that he had arranged what amounted to a weekend long date. 931 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,640 Speaker 1: It's unclear what happened next, but has departed hastily after 932 00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,759 Speaker 1: being taken for a long drive by Dewey, and later 933 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,440 Speaker 1: spoke to colleagues about how offensive his behavior had been. 934 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,799 Speaker 1: Now all I think that that's I mean, I know 935 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,839 Speaker 1: that that's not specific. Oh god. Yeah. Again, we don't 936 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:00,320 Speaker 1: know exactly what happened, but I found in our article 937 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,400 Speaker 1: from American Libraries Magazine that does go into more detail 938 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,480 Speaker 1: its sites from a letter do we wrote two hass later, 939 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,160 Speaker 1: in which he complained that she had ran away so suddenly, 940 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,520 Speaker 1: but also stated, I am very glad that I know 941 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:18,000 Speaker 1: you better. Sometimes I think of you as Shakespeare's Cordelia, 942 00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 1: for your voice is hers, sometimes as bru Hilda fair, 943 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: blue eyed Saxon. So he does not get the message. No, 944 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,719 Speaker 1: this is Oh god, that this is like I mean, 945 00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,799 Speaker 1: it's it's it's chilling and bad. And also I'm like, 946 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:35,960 Speaker 1: I just I am stuck on, like I am shocked 947 00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,200 Speaker 1: that records from this era exists of this kind of behavior, 948 00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,440 Speaker 1: and it it does so closely mirror stories from It's 949 00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: exactly the same ship. It's exactly the same ship. Like 950 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 1: this is Harvey Weinstein, this is exactly the same ship. Yeah, 951 00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,360 Speaker 1: it's just like creepy misspelled letters instead of emails. Like 952 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,480 Speaker 1: it's just I mean, it's like, you know, this is 953 00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:00,920 Speaker 1: all but this is like kind of an interesting example 954 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,720 Speaker 1: of like and we have every receipt for some reason, 955 00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 1: I mean obviously not although I'm sure there are probably 956 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: a couple probably I mean dozens to hundreds of women 957 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,120 Speaker 1: who we don't have the stories of that that do 958 00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:16,440 Speaker 1: we in some way mistreated, um, But but we know 959 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: we have some of Hass's story, um, partly because she 960 00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,120 Speaker 1: became a very significant figure in her own right and 961 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,480 Speaker 1: her biographer noted in it. Oh. I was just I 962 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,279 Speaker 1: was want to say that that that always makes a 963 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:29,359 Speaker 1: difference to if she's a person of note, then she'll 964 00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 1: always you know, like and that's not a slight against her. 965 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:36,000 Speaker 1: It's just like when when women and or like victims 966 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,760 Speaker 1: in general, like if they're not someone that we're talking 967 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,120 Speaker 1: about people don't talk about them. Yeah, it's one of 968 00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:42,680 Speaker 1: the value. It's one of the ways in which a 969 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,800 Speaker 1: woman who has been through that experience, like a positive 970 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,239 Speaker 1: to being famous is that you can help make it 971 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,279 Speaker 1: clear by your experience how many people who are not 972 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 1: famous have gone through something similar, And that's positive. Um. 973 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,160 Speaker 1: Her biographer noted in two thousand eighteen UM that the 974 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:00,840 Speaker 1: way do we refer to her there, with the lurid, romantic, 975 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,920 Speaker 1: mythical descriptions, was not at all the normal style for 976 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:06,719 Speaker 1: co ed communication between librarians. He's like, this is not 977 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,960 Speaker 1: even men who are probably guilty of a lot of 978 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,880 Speaker 1: gross behavior themselves, they don't write to their female colleagues 979 00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,720 Speaker 1: this way. Like this is weird. This stands out within 980 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm a dude, I'm a biographer who reads a lot 981 00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,480 Speaker 1: of letters from librarians to librarians. I ain't seen anything 982 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:26,480 Speaker 1: else like this, Like this is egregious, this is um. 983 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,600 Speaker 1: Adelaide decides, though, not to take any action against him, 984 00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,799 Speaker 1: and she explains to one colleague in a letter, we 985 00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:34,920 Speaker 1: are a professional body, the members of which encountering obnoxious 986 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,320 Speaker 1: personal traits and fellow members must content ourselves to employ 987 00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:42,359 Speaker 1: those defenses which reason, training and character dictate. So she's like, 988 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,600 Speaker 1: we need to defend against this guy, we need to 989 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:47,440 Speaker 1: warn women about him, stop them from but we we 990 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,359 Speaker 1: we can't like make a big thing about it, right, 991 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:54,439 Speaker 1: that's I mean, it's like a classic whispered obvious. Yeah, 992 00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,720 Speaker 1: it's like you can't. It's the system in which it's like, well, 993 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,440 Speaker 1: we don't have any faith that anyone in an authoritative 994 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,560 Speaker 1: position is going to advocate for us, so we have 995 00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:07,200 Speaker 1: to protect ourselves. And just like or, we're gonna or. 996 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:09,480 Speaker 1: And it's like that's especially in this era, that's a 997 00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,120 Speaker 1: reasonable concern for her of like if I'm speaking up, 998 00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna lose my job. That's a reasonable concern like 999 00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:22,760 Speaker 1: this nine five, you know, yeah, like that makes total sense, 1000 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: And it's also still so depressing. God God, well there's 1001 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,400 Speaker 1: actually it's about to get a little less depressing briefly, 1002 00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,239 Speaker 1: because it would be wrong to say that knowledge of 1003 00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:34,440 Speaker 1: Dewey's improprieties was an open secret, because that would imply 1004 00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,480 Speaker 1: it was secretive in any kind of way, Like it 1005 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,880 Speaker 1: was well known to everybody that he was this kind 1006 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: of dude. On one occasion, his son and daughter in 1007 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: law Godfrey and Marjorie Dewey move out of the family 1008 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 1: house because Dewey's own son felt the need to get 1009 00:53:49,239 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: his wife away from his father because the sexual advance 1010 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,439 Speaker 1: as his father was making towards his daughter in law 1011 00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:58,640 Speaker 1: were so constant and uncomfortable. Like that is the level 1012 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:04,200 Speaker 1: of like that's another level, right of like that is yeah, yeah, 1013 00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 1: that's another level of sex. I mean it's like that 1014 00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,839 Speaker 1: your daughter in law who you live with, and you're 1015 00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:14,000 Speaker 1: that's yeah, that's that's very very sick. It would be 1016 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:16,440 Speaker 1: hard to exaggerate the degree to which this guy is 1017 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,080 Speaker 1: a creep, like like he's a Weinstein level offender. If 1018 00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:21,919 Speaker 1: we don't have that amount of detail he's he's has 1019 00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: to be like yeah, I mean, if there's this much 1020 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,520 Speaker 1: information from so long ago. Yeah, and I think the 1021 00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,480 Speaker 1: fact that he's like sexually harassing his own daughter in 1022 00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,680 Speaker 1: la that also makes the case that like it's compulsive 1023 00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: for him, like he's he's doing it too, like every 1024 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:38,480 Speaker 1: chance he gets. Pretty much, I mean there's a degree 1025 00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 1: I think of calculation, but like, I mean, it just 1026 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,719 Speaker 1: does seem like any anyone that he thinks he can 1027 00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: get away with this behavior from he will pray on. Yeah. Now, 1028 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:49,840 Speaker 1: do We was fairly open about his behavior. He didn't 1029 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: see it as problematic, and he wasn't sure why anyone 1030 00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:56,360 Speaker 1: else would either. From American Libraries Magazine quote. In general, 1031 00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,600 Speaker 1: do We himself did not deny his actions, only their impropriety. 1032 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,920 Speaker 1: I been very unconventional, as men always are who frankly 1033 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,280 Speaker 1: show and speak of their liking for women, he wrote, 1034 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:07,560 Speaker 1: But he insisted it was not his fault if the 1035 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:12,880 Speaker 1: targets of his unconventional actions took offense. That's like ladies 1036 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:16,359 Speaker 1: man rhetoric. That's something that still mostly exists. Yeah, there's 1037 00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,680 Speaker 1: literally equivalment. That's like they I think women know to 1038 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,640 Speaker 1: take it as a compliment, like he's yeah, it's like, oh, 1039 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,839 Speaker 1: oh they can't like if they don't like it, they 1040 00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,880 Speaker 1: can't fucking bang, you know, Like, yeah, that's now. The 1041 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,160 Speaker 1: times being what they were back then, few of the 1042 00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 1: of his victims ever said anything publicly about his behavior. 1043 00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:37,520 Speaker 1: That we have, as much documentation as we do suggest 1044 00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:39,279 Speaker 1: that again, he was a sex pest on a pretty 1045 00:55:39,320 --> 00:55:42,000 Speaker 1: staggering scale. Nothing makes this point so well as the 1046 00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:44,920 Speaker 1: fact that, in nineteen o six, after harassing hass and 1047 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,719 Speaker 1: then several colleagues on a cruise, the other members of 1048 00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:50,440 Speaker 1: the A l A united to push Dewey out of 1049 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:54,280 Speaker 1: the organization he had helped to found. Wigan notes quote. 1050 00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,839 Speaker 1: In exchange for a quiet departure, he was spared an 1051 00:55:56,920 --> 00:55:59,520 Speaker 1: ugly and public expose of one of his major flaws. 1052 00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:01,680 Speaker 1: He was never again a power player in A L 1053 00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:05,839 Speaker 1: A politics. And this is I think they actually get 1054 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:09,799 Speaker 1: I give the A l A five camps. He got 1055 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: canceled in nineteen o six for sexuals. Do you know 1056 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,480 Speaker 1: how bad you have to be to be canceled in 1057 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:19,680 Speaker 1: nineteen o six for this? Like that is like this 1058 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:24,799 Speaker 1: is kind of blowing my mom. It's intense, and it's 1059 00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:27,200 Speaker 1: one of those things like the people who are not 1060 00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 1: getting canceled, like we're using canceled facetiously, but like in 1061 00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:37,920 Speaker 1: nineteen o six, in nine, some ship going on wow, 1062 00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,000 Speaker 1: And it's the kind of thing where two you tell 1063 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,440 Speaker 1: me that like an organization, a big company or whatever 1064 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:47,399 Speaker 1: quietly forces its founder route so that sexual the fact 1065 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,799 Speaker 1: that he's been sexually harassing and even assaulted women doesn't 1066 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,279 Speaker 1: become public. That's damning of that organization. That's damning. In 1067 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:56,719 Speaker 1: nineteen oh six, you get a lot of credit for 1068 00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,840 Speaker 1: doing that because that's something, you know, like that is 1069 00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 1: thing and there's a whole lot of nothing going on, 1070 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,960 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's a difference, is morally, I think different 1071 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:08,400 Speaker 1: to quietly forced the founder of your organization out in 1072 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,240 Speaker 1: nineteen o six for sexual harassment than it is in two. 1073 00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,080 Speaker 1: And I'm sure that there's other examples of it, but 1074 00:57:15,160 --> 00:57:18,000 Speaker 1: like this is the first. This is the earliest example 1075 00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: I've heard. I have not heard of an earlier one 1076 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,680 Speaker 1: for sure, like for this specific thing like they get 1077 00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,400 Speaker 1: and I think it's a lot of the people who 1078 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,520 Speaker 1: are doing this are women because it's it's you know, 1079 00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,960 Speaker 1: the a l a um and this is the most 1080 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:31,600 Speaker 1: they could do too, So I don't think this is 1081 00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,040 Speaker 1: an example today. You hear about this, like he gets 1082 00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:35,760 Speaker 1: a chance to leave quietly, and I think it's kind 1083 00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: of cowardice on part of the organization. I don't feel 1084 00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:40,200 Speaker 1: that way here, Like I'm sure maybe some of them 1085 00:57:40,280 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 1: feel that way, but I think a lot of it 1086 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,160 Speaker 1: is just people doing what can be done. You know. 1087 00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,160 Speaker 1: I agree, I think that the implications of this decision 1088 00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen o six versus two are very very very different. 1089 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,360 Speaker 1: I would agree, Yeah, yeah, you know what else the 1090 00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:57,560 Speaker 1: implications of are different? Oh no, the is it a 1091 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,840 Speaker 1: product Earth service? Yeah, that's not a great pivot. You know, 1092 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,760 Speaker 1: they can all be good. Look what do you what 1093 00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,200 Speaker 1: do you want for me? Look? Okay, you're being defensive. 1094 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:11,000 Speaker 1: No one's yelling at you. Thank you. I just I 1095 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,880 Speaker 1: get so angry at the far, so high for yourself, 1096 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,400 Speaker 1: and then you lash out at people who love you. 1097 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah that is what I do, all right? Well, you 1098 00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:28,360 Speaker 1: know also who does love these acts? That was a 1099 00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:41,880 Speaker 1: good one. Yeah, ah, we're back, my goodness. You know. 1100 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,560 Speaker 1: Well that was a that was a brutal segment. That 1101 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,439 Speaker 1: was rough, right, that's that's a rough one. I'm sure 1102 00:58:48,440 --> 00:58:51,800 Speaker 1: it's not going to get worse. Yeah. Now. Of course, 1103 00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,560 Speaker 1: the quiet nature of his resignation after decades of lauded 1104 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:56,680 Speaker 1: work for the l A meant that for a very 1105 00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,720 Speaker 1: long time there was almost no discussion of his improprieties. 1106 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,400 Speaker 1: The first biography published after his death, written in nineteen 1107 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: thirty two, was titled Melville Dewey Seer inspirer Doer, and 1108 00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:11,920 Speaker 1: it leaves out all of the references to his behavior 1109 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:16,920 Speaker 1: except for one sentence. So this is the one sentence. 1110 00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,800 Speaker 1: This is this is the one reference made in the thirties, 1111 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,320 Speaker 1: Dewey's consciousness of his own strength and freedom from evil 1112 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,400 Speaker 1: purpose led to a serene indifference in his everyday public 1113 00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:32,640 Speaker 1: relations with women. What do you read that again? And 1114 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:36,400 Speaker 1: a little Dewey's consciousness of his own strength and freedom 1115 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:39,360 Speaker 1: from evil purpose led to a serene indifference in his 1116 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,720 Speaker 1: everyday public relations with women. He knew he was a 1117 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,880 Speaker 1: good guy, so it was fine for him to sexually 1118 00:59:45,920 --> 00:59:47,880 Speaker 1: harass them. Like, that's kind of what they're saying. I 1119 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,200 Speaker 1: think that's exactly what they're saying. Because he knew he 1120 00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:52,160 Speaker 1: was such a good man, it was okay for him 1121 00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: to treat them this way. Yeah, it's legitimately a fucking 1122 00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:04,280 Speaker 1: insane sentence. Was evil? What's he's He was so conscious 1123 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 1: of his own strength and his freedom from evil purpose 1124 01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,600 Speaker 1: that he was indifferent to how he treated women evil 1125 01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,960 Speaker 1: purpose to serene and difference. Yeah, that does sound like 1126 01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:18,120 Speaker 1: that's out of its mind, that sentence, That sentence really 1127 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:23,280 Speaker 1: goes that. I could spend days with that. Yeah, yeah, 1128 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,160 Speaker 1: there's there's there's books that can be written about what 1129 01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 1: that sentence is saying. Oh God, yeah, that is gnarly. Okay, 1130 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,240 Speaker 1: thank you for that. I will note, because this is 1131 01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:36,040 Speaker 1: the period that it is, I found a whole less 1132 01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:38,080 Speaker 1: scholarly paper that makes what seems to be a pretty 1133 01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,439 Speaker 1: thorough case that Dewey was not a eugenicist. He wasn't 1134 01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,680 Speaker 1: really an opponent of eugenics either. He just didn't seem 1135 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 1: to agree with a lot of the arguments being made. Um, 1136 01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,400 Speaker 1: he doesn't seem to have been a eugenicist. And this 1137 01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:51,120 Speaker 1: is also worth noting. He was not a eugenicist. He 1138 01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:54,040 Speaker 1: was for sure a racist. And this is where I 1139 01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:57,080 Speaker 1: get beyond the racism the Dewey decimal system is this 1140 01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 1: is a guy who grows up in a racist system, 1141 01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:00,760 Speaker 1: never questions it. So he built some of that racism 1142 01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:02,640 Speaker 1: into this thing he built. Now we're going to talk 1143 01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:08,920 Speaker 1: about Dewey being aggressively and like exceptionally for the time racist. Um. 1144 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:10,760 Speaker 1: And to talk about that, we're going to talk about 1145 01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:14,360 Speaker 1: the Lake Placid club early you were so I just 1146 01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: wanted to be. So he's at this point because he 1147 01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,040 Speaker 1: invents the Dewey decimal system in his early twenties. Now 1148 01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 1: he's in his fifties, right, and it's like well into 1149 01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:23,240 Speaker 1: his life. Okay, So this is like a totally different 1150 01:01:23,240 --> 01:01:26,080 Speaker 1: era of this man. Yeah, this is the early Dreds. 1151 01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,240 Speaker 1: He buys a private club in the Adirondacks. From the beginning, 1152 01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:31,880 Speaker 1: Jews and black people were forbidden to be members of 1153 01:01:31,880 --> 01:01:36,680 Speaker 1: the club, which is not unusual for clubs at the time. UM. 1154 01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,320 Speaker 1: The club rules noted, no one shall be received as 1155 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,720 Speaker 1: a member or guest against whom there is physical, moral, moral, social, 1156 01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:45,960 Speaker 1: or race objection. It is found impracticable to make exceptions 1157 01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:52,800 Speaker 1: to Jews or others excluded, even when of unusual personal qualifications. UM. Again, 1158 01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:55,280 Speaker 1: this is not uncommon with like fancy clubs at the time, 1159 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:57,320 Speaker 1: but they usually don't write it down. That's what makes 1160 01:01:57,360 --> 01:02:03,480 Speaker 1: it weird is that he like they just mask yeah, races. Yeah, 1161 01:02:03,560 --> 01:02:05,880 Speaker 1: and do we knew that these rules were offensive enough 1162 01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:07,960 Speaker 1: that so obviously when he's still with the a l 1163 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: A UM, and when he's with it, there's a New 1164 01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,400 Speaker 1: York Library Association that he's a member of for a 1165 01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: later period UM, when they have he'll do gatherings for 1166 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 1: these organizations that he'll host at the club that he 1167 01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,920 Speaker 1: owns UM, and he'll hide the rule book because he'll 1168 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,840 Speaker 1: let like there's Jews that he lets in for these 1169 01:02:26,320 --> 01:02:29,080 Speaker 1: library events. You know, so he wants to hide, so 1170 01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:30,880 Speaker 1: he knows that what he's doing is fucked up, right, 1171 01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:35,240 Speaker 1: like he hides. Yeah. Now this came to an end 1172 01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:37,680 Speaker 1: in a rather spectacular fashion in nineteen o three, And 1173 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:39,240 Speaker 1: I want to quote now from a write up by 1174 01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:42,280 Speaker 1: Book Riot. This swanky party happened every year at the 1175 01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,360 Speaker 1: Lake Placid Club. However nineteen o three was special that year. 1176 01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:48,240 Speaker 1: Do we hadn't hidden the club's rule book? This lead 1177 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:50,920 Speaker 1: being a librarian shindig. Someone found the thing on a 1178 01:02:50,960 --> 01:02:53,680 Speaker 1: side table and decided to read it. That person turned 1179 01:02:53,720 --> 01:02:56,200 Speaker 1: out to be a friend of Henry Leipzigger, a Jewish 1180 01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:57,919 Speaker 1: member of the n y l A, the New York 1181 01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:01,440 Speaker 1: Library Association Circulation Committee. Together they read the pamphlet and 1182 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,320 Speaker 1: discovered the language forbidding racial and ethnic minorities, but especially 1183 01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:09,600 Speaker 1: and specifically Jews. Coincidentally, Leipziger had been trying to become 1184 01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,200 Speaker 1: a member of the Placid Club for years. Now he 1185 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,080 Speaker 1: knew why his application was on permanent hold. That's right, 1186 01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:17,919 Speaker 1: Do we hadn't even told him about the no Jews rule? 1187 01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,520 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. Leipziger did the opposite of shutting up about 1188 01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,000 Speaker 1: Dewey's racist social club. Do He was in the State 1189 01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:29,000 Speaker 1: Librarian of New York, a publicly funded position. New York 1190 01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: City was a major center of Jewish culture, and Leipziger 1191 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:33,880 Speaker 1: felt that Jewish tax dollars were going to waste on 1192 01:03:33,920 --> 01:03:37,960 Speaker 1: an unapologetic anti Semite. He hired lawyer Lewis Marshall, who 1193 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:39,960 Speaker 1: lodged a petition with the Board of Regents to get 1194 01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:45,280 Speaker 1: do We fired. In nineteen oh five. Oh boy, this 1195 01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:48,680 Speaker 1: is why we don't record on Friday night. Do We 1196 01:03:48,920 --> 01:03:51,920 Speaker 1: was forced to quit his state library position, even though 1197 01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 1: he mounted a spirited defense by saying he had Jewish friends, 1198 01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,040 Speaker 1: um and again to talk about how racist and said 1199 01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:03,320 Speaker 1: he gets canceled for sexual harassment and racism in nineteen 1200 01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,680 Speaker 1: o six, like his story took place last spring. As 1201 01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:12,120 Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned, Yeah, yeah, um and again. You'll 1202 01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:14,560 Speaker 1: you'll also note that this Jewish guy who gets offended 1203 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,960 Speaker 1: at the Lake Plastic Club, I don't think he's arguing 1204 01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:19,439 Speaker 1: on behalf of black people. Um. I don't think he's 1205 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:21,480 Speaker 1: offended that black people are so like what you know, 1206 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,640 Speaker 1: it's nineteen o six, right, like everything's terrible, um or 1207 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:31,280 Speaker 1: nineteen o five. But um, yeah, so do we quits 1208 01:04:31,280 --> 01:04:33,120 Speaker 1: the State Library position. This is I think a little 1209 01:04:33,160 --> 01:04:34,600 Speaker 1: after he got kicked out of the a l a 1210 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,520 Speaker 1: Um and right around the time that this controversy breaks out. 1211 01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,320 Speaker 1: Part of why he has to quit is it comes 1212 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:41,560 Speaker 1: out that not only was he not allowing Jewish people 1213 01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,080 Speaker 1: to enter his club, he had bought a bunch of 1214 01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:47,080 Speaker 1: the land around the Lake uh Placid club so that 1215 01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:49,439 Speaker 1: Jews couldn't buy it, so there wouldn't even be Jews 1216 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,480 Speaker 1: who would like look at his club like that. That's again, 1217 01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,080 Speaker 1: he keeps going the extra mile on this ship. You know, 1218 01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:59,280 Speaker 1: this is like yeah, like it's, oh my god, that's 1219 01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,080 Speaker 1: so much anti semitism. And then he's just like going 1220 01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,400 Speaker 1: into regular spaces like this is not a thing that 1221 01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,360 Speaker 1: he's spending a lot of time and money to do this. Yeah, 1222 01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:11,040 Speaker 1: And again, the thing worth noting is that he is 1223 01:05:11,080 --> 01:05:13,760 Speaker 1: not getting canceled for his racism against black people, which 1224 01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:15,640 Speaker 1: is not at all exceptional for the time, and it's 1225 01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,960 Speaker 1: kind of gets lost in sort of the everyone's that racist. 1226 01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:21,720 Speaker 1: He's not getting canceled because he's racist towards Southeast Asians. 1227 01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:25,280 Speaker 1: He's really race specifically racist towards Jewish people, and in 1228 01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,080 Speaker 1: New York probably wouldn't happen if he lives somewhere else, 1229 01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,240 Speaker 1: But in New York he gets canceled as a result 1230 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:34,160 Speaker 1: of that. You know, it's worth it being specifically about 1231 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,840 Speaker 1: the racism that is considered a problem in this period. 1232 01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:41,800 Speaker 1: You know, she's okay. Yeah, yeah. So his history of 1233 01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,920 Speaker 1: sexual harassment and racism had created his public career by 1234 01:05:45,000 --> 01:05:47,320 Speaker 1: nineteen o six. But do we continue to run the 1235 01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:49,520 Speaker 1: Lake Placid Club, which, among other things, was a place 1236 01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:52,880 Speaker 1: where he could indulge in his language revision fantasies without pushback. 1237 01:05:53,160 --> 01:05:57,080 Speaker 1: One ninety seven menu listed haddock h A d okay, 1238 01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,760 Speaker 1: potted beef pot e D with new in O O 1239 01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:03,600 Speaker 1: d L S parsley p A R s l I 1240 01:06:04,080 --> 01:06:07,480 Speaker 1: or mashed m A s h T potato butter b 1241 01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:11,080 Speaker 1: U t R steamed rice s t e e A 1242 01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,480 Speaker 1: M d R y s lettuce l e t I 1243 01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 1: S and wise cream. I don't know what y S 1244 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:21,560 Speaker 1: cream is supposed to be? Is that how he thinks 1245 01:06:22,120 --> 01:06:24,720 Speaker 1: ice cream? Is that maybe ice cream? I think that 1246 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:31,400 Speaker 1: might be ice cream cream cream. See, I think this 1247 01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,400 Speaker 1: is a good This is a good yardstick for like 1248 01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:35,960 Speaker 1: how I feel about him, Because it was hilarious the 1249 01:06:36,000 --> 01:06:38,400 Speaker 1: first time, and when he's doing it in the nineties, 1250 01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm not laughing. There's nothing funny. Now, you're just a sad, 1251 01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:49,840 Speaker 1: weird man in Lake Placid making typos on purpose. Do 1252 01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,680 Speaker 1: We hired a stenographer who he described in his unique 1253 01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,760 Speaker 1: spelling way as a dainty little l I T L 1254 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:59,720 Speaker 1: flapper and better looking than I expected b E t R. 1255 01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:02,800 Speaker 1: After he hugged and kissed her in public, she threatened 1256 01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:05,360 Speaker 1: to file charges and ended up settling with Dewey for 1257 01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,640 Speaker 1: two thousand, one forty seven dollars in sixty six cents. 1258 01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:13,760 Speaker 1: And again like that's not nothing that and also like 1259 01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:17,920 Speaker 1: it's again, this is egregious enough that he doesn't think 1260 01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:19,959 Speaker 1: he can win in court despite being a rich dude 1261 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:24,840 Speaker 1: against this woman like pro like you know, like people 1262 01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:27,880 Speaker 1: being sexually harassed, just taking the rich person's money because 1263 01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,400 Speaker 1: the justice system is so fucking broken. It's like, go 1264 01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,360 Speaker 1: as far as you can in the justice system and 1265 01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,040 Speaker 1: take all their money where while you're what you can, 1266 01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:41,000 Speaker 1: you know um. According to Wayne wigand author of Irrepressible Reformer, 1267 01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:44,040 Speaker 1: a biography of Melville Dewey, Dewey was upset with the 1268 01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:47,080 Speaker 1: settlement not because he had been reprimanded for anything improper, 1269 01:07:47,160 --> 01:07:50,000 Speaker 1: but because he worried the stenographer might got might spread 1270 01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,600 Speaker 1: rumors that she got two thousand dollars for no work. 1271 01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:57,080 Speaker 1: Similarly unrepentant after he yeah, I know, right, like what 1272 01:07:57,160 --> 01:08:00,480 Speaker 1: the fun still efficiency minded even when he is in 1273 01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:04,720 Speaker 1: court for being a sex pest, Similarly unrepentant after he 1274 01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,840 Speaker 1: was centured by the A L A. Do we insisted 1275 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,640 Speaker 1: he hadn't done anything wrong. Peer women would understand my ways, 1276 01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:18,040 Speaker 1: he said, I have no comment. He's just like sucks. 1277 01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:21,560 Speaker 1: It sucks pretty bad. There's there's just like this impulse 1278 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:26,719 Speaker 1: in people that I don't understand too um double down 1279 01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:31,000 Speaker 1: on the worst parts of themselves, to the point where 1280 01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,760 Speaker 1: like anything remotely useful that they had done in their 1281 01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,559 Speaker 1: entire lives are rendered upsetting to even think about, Like 1282 01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:42,479 Speaker 1: what is that element of human nature? It is so 1283 01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:47,160 Speaker 1: ugly and dark and I'm and I'm upset. Robert, Well, 1284 01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:49,439 Speaker 1: here's a here's a good thing. He even dies soon 1285 01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:53,920 Speaker 1: he does. He dies on December of a stroke like clacid. 1286 01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,519 Speaker 1: D you please say there's no more information. No, he's 1287 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,880 Speaker 1: fucking dead as ship now now for decades he is, 1288 01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:03,840 Speaker 1: as we've talked about a bit, largely lionized and applauded 1289 01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:06,640 Speaker 1: for his achievements, but in recent years the tide has 1290 01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,040 Speaker 1: begun to turn, not because of new evidence brought up 1291 01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:11,920 Speaker 1: against the man, but because his behavior started being recognized 1292 01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,599 Speaker 1: by broader culture as problematic. Again. In two thousand nineteen, 1293 01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,880 Speaker 1: the American Library Association dropped his name from an award 1294 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:22,519 Speaker 1: as the result of his racism and sexual harassment. Sherry Harrington, 1295 01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,960 Speaker 1: part of the task force that drafted the resolution to 1296 01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,800 Speaker 1: do this, explained it wasn't like he's being judged by 1297 01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:30,920 Speaker 1: twenty first century standards. He was called out repeatedly for 1298 01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:35,760 Speaker 1: his sexual harassment behavior during his time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh, 1299 01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:38,599 Speaker 1: I'm I that's I mean, that's crumbs. But I'm glad 1300 01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,840 Speaker 1: that it happened. Very good. It does. It does happen. 1301 01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,640 Speaker 1: And it is like when I heard there was a 1302 01:09:44,640 --> 01:09:48,040 Speaker 1: man who got canceled for sexual harassment in nineteen o six, 1303 01:09:48,080 --> 01:09:49,960 Speaker 1: I was like, well, we've got to talk about this. 1304 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,040 Speaker 1: Would have that will have had to have been pretty 1305 01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:57,479 Speaker 1: fucking bad. Yeah, and it's got to be a tale. Yeah, 1306 01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:01,719 Speaker 1: And it sure was. Wow, Robert, this had I simply 1307 01:10:01,840 --> 01:10:04,519 Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't this was all. Was this all 1308 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:08,080 Speaker 1: information that you learned about relatively recently. I had known 1309 01:10:08,160 --> 01:10:11,280 Speaker 1: Dewey was like a sexist asshole, I didn't know most 1310 01:10:11,320 --> 01:10:13,960 Speaker 1: of it. I certainly did not know that, like the 1311 01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,120 Speaker 1: racism in the Dewey decimal, I had no idea about 1312 01:10:16,120 --> 01:10:19,439 Speaker 1: any of that, which is probably just right there. I'm 1313 01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:21,080 Speaker 1: sure there's a lot that has I mean, I know 1314 01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:22,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot that has I'm sure there's more to 1315 01:10:22,680 --> 01:10:25,600 Speaker 1: be written about the impact that has had, which is 1316 01:10:25,600 --> 01:10:28,760 Speaker 1: certainly like the most toxic thing he did in terms 1317 01:10:28,760 --> 01:10:35,160 Speaker 1: of its impact on society. Yeah, it's um, pretty bad, 1318 01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:39,720 Speaker 1: pretty pretty shitty, dude, Melville Dewey. Wow, I'm not a fan, 1319 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:45,520 Speaker 1: gonna sorry takeaways. I'm going to go burn down a library, 1320 01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,560 Speaker 1: burned out a library. Um. You know, um, all librarians 1321 01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:53,120 Speaker 1: are your enemy now, and I think that's clear. Um yeah, 1322 01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:57,000 Speaker 1: hunt them down in there in their places, um wherever 1323 01:10:57,040 --> 01:10:59,320 Speaker 1: they hied. You know, if if someone makes a perks 1324 01:10:59,360 --> 01:11:02,080 Speaker 1: and Recreation joke, I will kill myself, So don't I 1325 01:11:02,080 --> 01:11:05,760 Speaker 1: don't even know. Are there librarians in that show? There's 1326 01:11:05,800 --> 01:11:11,920 Speaker 1: there's librarians in that show. And that's see and that's 1327 01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:15,320 Speaker 1: what I love about you. Um there, No, it's fine. 1328 01:11:15,439 --> 01:11:19,720 Speaker 1: I I do I I do love a library. I 1329 01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:23,639 Speaker 1: do feel that it's still so wild to me that 1330 01:11:24,400 --> 01:11:28,920 Speaker 1: libraries are so underfunded and also like are the only 1331 01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:31,479 Speaker 1: place where so many things are able to happen in 1332 01:11:31,520 --> 01:11:34,559 Speaker 1: a socially acceptable like it's the only socially acceptable place 1333 01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:38,599 Speaker 1: to get free WiFi or go to the bathroom or read. Like. 1334 01:11:38,760 --> 01:11:42,439 Speaker 1: The two coolest things our government does is the post 1335 01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:48,800 Speaker 1: office and libraries. Um that government in general does like yeah, 1336 01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:55,920 Speaker 1: um um. So it sucks that there was a deeply unsettling, 1337 01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:59,640 Speaker 1: bigoted person who has such a large effect on libraries, 1338 01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,920 Speaker 1: but I'm glad that libraries are grappling with Yeah, it 1339 01:12:02,960 --> 01:12:05,240 Speaker 1: seems like this is a thing because it is like 1340 01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:09,000 Speaker 1: a very like the library biz. Like, the people who 1341 01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:12,920 Speaker 1: are in libraries tend to be well educated and pretty progressive. 1342 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:17,120 Speaker 1: I think the somewhat progressive as an organism. I'm sure 1343 01:12:17,120 --> 01:12:21,360 Speaker 1: librarians there are progressive librarians might disagree with aspects of that, 1344 01:12:21,439 --> 01:12:24,760 Speaker 1: but I think broadly speaking, um, it seems like there 1345 01:12:24,760 --> 01:12:28,640 Speaker 1: are there are ongoing attempts to address the impact of 1346 01:12:28,640 --> 01:12:31,679 Speaker 1: these problems. Can I can I plug a quick library 1347 01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:35,679 Speaker 1: related thing? For sure? Okay, if you're currently and if there, 1348 01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:37,960 Speaker 1: if it's one of the products and services in the episode, 1349 01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:41,639 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. But if you're currently an audible subscriber, stop 1350 01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:44,400 Speaker 1: giving your money to Jeff Bezos and there are so 1351 01:12:44,479 --> 01:12:47,360 Speaker 1: I get all of my audio books from the library 1352 01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:51,160 Speaker 1: on an app. Absolutely, And so if you are, if 1353 01:12:51,200 --> 01:12:55,600 Speaker 1: you're not tapped into your local libraries like audiobook system 1354 01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:00,800 Speaker 1: or e book system, stop giving money to billionaires and 1355 01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:04,000 Speaker 1: start giving money to nobody. It's your right, it's your 1356 01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:09,000 Speaker 1: into Sharon Stone's biography. Speaking as a guy who's written 1357 01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,080 Speaker 1: multiple books that are in libraries. Every now and then 1358 01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,160 Speaker 1: you get some fucking ship head writer on Twitter who 1359 01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:15,280 Speaker 1: is like, well, you're you're taking money from me by 1360 01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:18,040 Speaker 1: like getting my books from a library. If if you 1361 01:13:18,080 --> 01:13:20,760 Speaker 1: find a writer who has that attitude, stop reading their 1362 01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:24,160 Speaker 1: books and start hitting them with a give him a brick. 1363 01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:28,160 Speaker 1: You know that's a brick. Free books are dope. Free 1364 01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:33,080 Speaker 1: books are amazing. Uh and and um make sure that you're, yeah, 1365 01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,360 Speaker 1: you're using your library for all it's work, because that's 1366 01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:42,599 Speaker 1: why it's there. Yeah, good times and all right, what Dewey, Jamie, 1367 01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:44,360 Speaker 1: you've got any other plug doubles you want? To drop 1368 01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,880 Speaker 1: in the p zone in the zone, in the zone. 1369 01:13:48,040 --> 01:13:50,439 Speaker 1: Do you guys remember when pozones were a thing? Of 1370 01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:55,559 Speaker 1: course it was like pizza hut, Right, Joey Chestnut competed 1371 01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:58,760 Speaker 1: in pozzone competition. Who the fund is Joey Chestnut? You 1372 01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,680 Speaker 1: talk about Joey Chestnut of the time, and I have 1373 01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:03,479 Speaker 1: no idea who you're talking about. Is that that sounds 1374 01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,320 Speaker 1: like a fake guy. Not a fake It's a real 1375 01:14:06,520 --> 01:14:12,320 Speaker 1: guy guy, Joey Chestnut. Don't like he's not. Although actually 1376 01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:14,400 Speaker 1: there is a behind the bastards in the hot dog 1377 01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:16,280 Speaker 1: eating world that I will talk to you about off 1378 01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:21,439 Speaker 1: Mike because it's fascinating. Oh um, I'll do I'll lead 1379 01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:24,160 Speaker 1: the episode for Christ's sake. I just wrote twelve words 1380 01:14:24,160 --> 01:14:29,639 Speaker 1: about it. Absolutely. Jamie greenwell, any time you come here 1381 01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,840 Speaker 1: and we'll do a reverse Bastards. That sounds incredible. That 1382 01:14:32,840 --> 01:14:35,639 Speaker 1: would be really fun. I know way too much. Joey 1383 01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:40,080 Speaker 1: Chestnut is the the the champion, I mean hot dogs, 1384 01:14:40,120 --> 01:14:45,400 Speaker 1: but also everything. He's the He's the champion. Okay, that 1385 01:14:45,400 --> 01:14:48,920 Speaker 1: makes sense of the world. His name sounds like a 1386 01:14:48,960 --> 01:14:53,599 Speaker 1: fake person. It's a real name. Joseph Chestnut of sand Chesnut. 1387 01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:58,360 Speaker 1: Come on Joseph chessnunt San Jose, California is Indiana. Now 1388 01:14:58,600 --> 01:15:03,480 Speaker 1: it's I really it. Look he's one po Zone Contests. 1389 01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:05,720 Speaker 1: There's a whole I would high. Okay. The other thing 1390 01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:09,599 Speaker 1: I'll plug besides library cards is the thirty for thirty 1391 01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:13,200 Speaker 1: episode about two Kara Kobayashi and Joey Chestnut. It is 1392 01:15:13,240 --> 01:15:15,880 Speaker 1: one of the most fascinating stories ever told. Or don't 1393 01:15:15,920 --> 01:15:17,800 Speaker 1: watch it and I will recap it for you on 1394 01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,240 Speaker 1: a future episode of Behind the Bastards because it is 1395 01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:24,360 Speaker 1: just wild. I think I'm about to learn a lot 1396 01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:28,759 Speaker 1: about the competitive eating industry, which I have devoted about 1397 01:15:28,800 --> 01:15:31,040 Speaker 1: a third of a second thinking too in my life 1398 01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,680 Speaker 1: up to this point. Um, I would say of my 1399 01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:36,880 Speaker 1: knowledge of competitive eating comes from that one King of 1400 01:15:36,920 --> 01:15:39,680 Speaker 1: the Hill episode that's pretty good and that that is 1401 01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:43,240 Speaker 1: a pretty well informed episode. Um. I will plug. I'll 1402 01:15:43,280 --> 01:15:46,360 Speaker 1: plug two things I'll plug. Um. I have a solo 1403 01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:50,200 Speaker 1: podcasts that have come out in the last year, Act Cast, 1404 01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,439 Speaker 1: which is about Kathy podcast or the Kathy Comic not 1405 01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:58,280 Speaker 1: podcast UM and Lolita podcast which is about Lolita and 1406 01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:02,280 Speaker 1: its cultural impact. And I'll also plug uh TV show 1407 01:16:02,320 --> 01:16:04,160 Speaker 1: I wrote on last year that just got released on 1408 01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:08,920 Speaker 1: HBO Max called Teenage Euthanasia. Um, it's a very fun 1409 01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:15,840 Speaker 1: show about tea. Yeah, it's about a family that owns 1410 01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:19,920 Speaker 1: a funeral home and zombies in Florida. So it's it's 1411 01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,160 Speaker 1: very fun and it's on HBO Max. Finally, it was 1412 01:16:22,200 --> 01:16:23,960 Speaker 1: really hard to watch for a while, so you can 1413 01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:29,360 Speaker 1: watch it now. And you can catch my show, Mrs 1414 01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:35,120 Speaker 1: Joseph Chestnut America USA in l A at the Allegian 1415 01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:40,960 Speaker 1: Theater on February seventeen at nine o'clock PM. I'm really 1416 01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:46,080 Speaker 1: excited for it. I play Joey chestnuts widow because I 1417 01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,439 Speaker 1: murdered him. So if you live in the l A area, 1418 01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:55,400 Speaker 1: it's mandatory you have to come watch Jamie's Sweet Ash show. Um, 1419 01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:00,680 Speaker 1: and uh, that's it. Go you know five a librarian. 1420 01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:03,519 Speaker 1: Just challenge a librarian to a duel. You know, they 1421 01:17:03,560 --> 01:17:05,800 Speaker 1: have to accept. That's one of the rules about being 1422 01:17:05,800 --> 01:17:08,280 Speaker 1: a librarian. If you challenge them to a formal duel, 1423 01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:10,720 Speaker 1: they can't say no. They cannot turn you down. And 1424 01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:13,240 Speaker 1: it's not you can report them. No. They get to 1425 01:17:13,280 --> 01:17:16,720 Speaker 1: pick the weapon, so be careful there. Um, but you 1426 01:17:17,240 --> 01:17:21,120 Speaker 1: they will fight you. Everyone, Katana, I've encountered a Katana 1427 01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,040 Speaker 1: librarian or two. In my day, I've never won. Let's 1428 01:17:24,040 --> 01:17:28,040 Speaker 1: how you lost those fingers? Um? Well, that's the episode 1429 01:17:28,040 --> 01:17:35,080 Speaker 1: of Behind the Bastards. Go um go with God. Wow, God, 1430 01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:36,960 Speaker 1: Bless Jesus Christ. Five