1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,000 Speaker 1: Coming up on you need therapy. 2 00:00:02,680 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 2: This is where it's like, oh, it's so vicious because 3 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 2: with religious trauma, imagine you're gonna get punished. It's not 4 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 2: just you're gonna get punished here, You're going to hell. 5 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 2: You're damned, your salvation's gone, like those are. That's like 6 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 2: the high stakes, you know, for a lot of people 7 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 2: in this experience and that fear that comes from it, 8 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 2: you know. 9 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: I started to realize that not being an expert isn't 10 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: a liability, it's a real gift. 11 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: If we don't know something about ourselves at this point 12 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 2: in our life, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. 13 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: If you can die before you die, then you can 14 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: really live. There's a wisdom at death's door. 15 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 3: I thought I was insane. Yeah, and I didn't know 16 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 3: what to do because there was no Internet. 17 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I'm like, I feel like everything 18 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: is hard. Hey, y'all, my name is Kat. I'm a 19 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: human first and a licensed therapist second. And right now 20 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm inviting you into conversations that I hope encourage you 21 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,679 Speaker 1: to become more curious and less judgmental about yourself, others, 22 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: and the world around you. Welcome to you need therapy. 23 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome to a new episode of Even 24 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: Therapy Podcasts. My name is kat I am the host 25 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: and your biweekly quick reminder that although this podcast does 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: serve to help you, guys on whatever journ you on, 27 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: it does not serve as a replacement or a substitute 28 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: for any kind of mental health services. Now, this week's 29 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: episode is extra special in a different way because we 30 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: have a guest, and it's not just any guest. It 31 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: is one of the therapists that works at my practice, 32 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: Three Courts Therapy. Her name is Julia Langner, and she 33 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,560 Speaker 1: is just a wonderful presence. She is calming, she is soothing, 34 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: she is joyful. She's just a wonderful person to share 35 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:04,880 Speaker 1: and with, which is equality of a therapist I would 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: highly look for. And it's a natural part of who 37 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: she is. It's she doesn't have to try to be 38 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: those things, which is really really special. And this week 39 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,519 Speaker 1: we are talking about spiritual abuse and religious trauma, which 40 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:23,160 Speaker 1: is something that Julia actually does have experience working with 41 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,959 Speaker 1: and enjoys working with. So I want to give an 42 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: extra shout out to anybody who listens to this episode 43 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: and feels called to maybe start doing their own work 44 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: within this place that Julia might be somebody you want 45 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: to reach out to. Keep in mind that she's only 46 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: able to work with clients that are living in Tennessee 47 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: due to licensing and ethics in our field. However, she 48 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,959 Speaker 1: also has a Instagram you can follow, which I love 49 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: and has been helpful for me to follow along since 50 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: she created it. Her handle is at the Self Compassion Counselor. 51 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: She's also the new brain behind the You Need Therapy 52 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 1: podcast instagram, So any of the beautiful post or reels 53 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: that you've seen lately, those are all her, so quick 54 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:12,400 Speaker 1: reminder that you can also follow us at you Need 55 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: Therapy Podcast to get up to date information on what 56 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about on the podcast and the things that 57 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: stand out on the episodes. So, without dragging this on 58 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: too long, I want to get into this conversation because 59 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: it was a really good one to have with somebody 60 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: that I think is really wonderful to have it with. 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 1: So please enjoy my conversation with Julia. So let's start 62 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: with we were talking before I hit record, well, to 63 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: define religious trauma, do we need to understand what trauma is? 64 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 3: Yeah? 65 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: And I think that I've done, the difference between series 66 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: the series that I do with Tara Booker where we 67 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: talk about this clinical term or this therapy term, and 68 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: then we actually talk about what it means in pop 69 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: culture and then what it means when it comes to 70 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: being a therapist. And I think we did an episode 71 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: on that, and what I was taught and what I 72 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: still believe to an extent, is that trauma is something 73 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: that is anything less than nurturing. It's also something that 74 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: we have the power to define for ourselves. So what 75 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: might be traumatic for one person might not be traumatic 76 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: for another. And we don't always have the skills and 77 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: the information to say, well, that wasn't traumatic for me, 78 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: so it can't be for you. And so I'm very 79 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: curious for you to share how you understand what trauma 80 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: is when it comes to the mental health world. 81 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 2: There's a lot of definitions out there which can make 82 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: it hard. But I think about it as something happened 83 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 2: to you that shouldn't have or something that should have 84 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: happened to you didn't. In either way, it was outside 85 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: of your brain or your body's ability to process it. 86 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: In the moment, So it gets stuck. 87 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: As trauma such a nice definition and. 88 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 3: A not nice thing of a nice yeah, of a 89 00:04:58,080 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 3: not nice thing. 90 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: Let's start with that as like our baseline. I think 91 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,359 Speaker 1: that's a good starting place then to understand some of 92 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: the concepts that we're talking about. You're somebody who likes 93 00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: to and what's weird. What's weird about being a therapist? 94 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: It's like, what do you like to work with? And 95 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: it's like eating disorders? Yeah, trauma, And it feels like 96 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: kind of weird because it's like, well, I don't like 97 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: that these things exist, and I don't like get like 98 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: a sick joy from working with these things. But at 99 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: the same time, we do find some kind of connection 100 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: and joy and helping people heal from these things. So 101 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: I just say that because as I was like, what 102 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: do you like to work with this? It feels weird 103 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: because it's. 104 00:05:38,040 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 3: It My passion is trauma. 105 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels weird, but it's not necessarily what we're 106 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: saying is that you love trauma. It's that you like 107 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: helping people heal from it. So I'm curious what got 108 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: you into a place of, oh, this is something that 109 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:53,600 Speaker 1: I actually want to focus on and work with. 110 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: I feel like for a lot of therapists. 111 00:05:56,720 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 2: It's it's from my own story and experiences, and I 112 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 2: think that's to speak about the trauma generally, and also 113 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: religious trauma, like my own experience of that, and then 114 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: also people close to me who walked through or are 115 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 2: still walking through it and just feeling like, oh my gosh, 116 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: this is really important. It's really confusing and impacts the 117 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: way you think about yourself and the world and your 118 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 2: family and all those things. So I think some of 119 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:27,840 Speaker 2: the passion comes from that and just wanting to make 120 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 2: sense of some of the chaos. 121 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: And therapy is also a weird job because we're taught 122 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: so much to keep ourselves separate, but for the most part, 123 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to helping professions, we're helping out of 124 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: a place of knowing. Right, So I started working with 125 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: eating disorders that came from a place of knowing. What's 126 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: interesting about my stories. I wanted to work with eating 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: disorders when I didn't know that I had one, Yeah, 128 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: and I wanted to help people, which there might be 129 00:06:57,160 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: a correlation here with the spiritual trauma too, is I've 130 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:02,159 Speaker 1: worked on this, but it's still like, Oh, I wish 131 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: this isn't the way that I had to get here. 132 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:06,520 Speaker 1: But when I went to school, I wanted to help 133 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: people lose weight. I wanted them to like learn how 134 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: from a very like sick. I was in my own 135 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: eating sort of space, and so I wanted to be 136 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,920 Speaker 1: a therapist that helped people like make better choices for 137 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: their lives, you know. And then I got into school 138 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: and I got into therapy, and I was like, oh, 139 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: so what I wanted to do is help people have 140 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: eating disorders. Yeah, and that's not what I want. And 141 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: so then that passion continue to develop of like, oh, 142 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: I want to help people that were in that place 143 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: because I had no idea what was in it. And 144 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: that might be what you're talking about too, is there 145 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: had to be a space where I realized I'm experiencing 146 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: something like this, and I didn't know until I knew. 147 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,679 Speaker 3: It's like research is mesearch. Yeah, that's that's all about. 148 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 2: I think that's good because I found myself in this 149 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: place of like these things happened to me. I'm seeing 150 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,560 Speaker 2: these things happen to people around me in regards to 151 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 2: religious trauma aspect, and you know, it's like that voice 152 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:00,040 Speaker 2: is like okay, can we like. 153 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: Can we google it? 154 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: Like what's going on and you start to read about 155 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: and you're like, maybe this is me, and you dig 156 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: deeper and deeper and researches me search you know, it's 157 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 2: like you kind of start to look for the things 158 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 2: that are speaking to your own experience. 159 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: Well, yes, that's with everything, because anytime I'm like listening 160 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: to a podcast or reading a book or doing this, 161 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, I want to know more about the 162 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: thing that I feel connected to. So let's start with this, 163 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: because this is something that I'm seeing more and more 164 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: and more and more and more and more and more. 165 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: Just how you're just we're seeing people talk about trauma more. 166 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: We're talking so we're seeing people talk about religious trauma more. 167 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: Why do you think is it that, all of a 168 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: sudden we have all this religious trauma? Is it because TikTok? 169 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: Is it because what is your understanding of that? Wow? 170 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 2: I don't have TikTok, So I didn't even know it 171 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 2: was being talked about there. 172 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: You don't have TikTok? 173 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 3: Have TikTok. I'm trying to avoid it for as long 174 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,640 Speaker 3: as possible. Wait a second, I know. 175 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: Have you ever almost downloaded it? 176 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 3: No? 177 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: No, I don't let myself go there because Instagram is 178 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 2: so like Instagram to my thing. 179 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: Do you watch reels? 180 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 3: I do? And it comes from TikTok, Like don't they 181 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: all kind of come from TikTok. 182 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: I feel like people put videos on TikTok and then 183 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: later they put them on reals. But I don't really know. 184 00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 1: I just am very jealous of you. 185 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm exposing like I do your marketing, 186 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 2: but I like don't actually know what I'm doing. 187 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 3: I'm exposing myself. 188 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: Well, we are concerned with I don't TikTok. I feel 189 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: like there's a dark place. So I'm very proud of you. 190 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, So for you, this doesn't obviously it 191 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: can't just come from TikTok. Okay, So what do you 192 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: think then? 193 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 2: Well, I think that just in general, we have so 194 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 2: much more information at our fingertips about all things. 195 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: But this is one of those. 196 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: Where it's yeah, I guess it's on TikTok, it's on 197 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: there's documentaries. There's just like more opportunities for things to 198 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: be out in the open and exposed. The media is 199 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 2: going after a lot of a lot of institutions of this, 200 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 2: and so I think to like, Okay, have you heard 201 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 2: of the book Jesus and John Wayne. No, Oh, my gosh, 202 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: you have to read it. It's amazing. So she this author, 203 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 2: she's a professor at Calvin University, which is actually where 204 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 2: both my siblings went. I'm very connected to Calvin, but 205 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: she's a professor there, and she like kind of digs 206 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 2: into how for many many decades she talks specifically about 207 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: the white evangelical American version of church and how just 208 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 2: since like the nineteen fifties, nineteen sixties or has just 209 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 2: been like layers of a lot of toxic masculinity and 210 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 2: patterns being built up and then like fed into what's 211 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: now like megachurch culture these days and celebrity pastors. So anyways, 212 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: I think that like we're living in this unique era 213 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 2: where we. 214 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 3: Have massive megachurches. 215 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 2: Celebrity pastors are a thing, which sounds just like a 216 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 2: silly term even, like how is that a thing? And 217 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: with something so big like naturally, something could go wrong, 218 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 2: you know. 219 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like bigger's not always better. 220 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, and the power there. 221 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: Did you listen to the podcast The Rise and Fall 222 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: of Marshall? 223 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 3: I was literally going to bring that up. 224 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: Yes, did you listen to the podcast, The Rise and. 225 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 3: Fall of Marsh I was literally gonna bring that up. 226 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: Yes, okay, Yeah, if you're interested in this topic and 227 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to that podcast series, you should listen 228 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: to it. It's long and it's a lot, but it's 229 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: also like eye opening and you get to see a 230 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,439 Speaker 1: good behind the scenes picture of sometimes what's going on 231 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: from something that looks very pretty on the outside. Yeah, 232 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: and I think that we haven't even defined what religious 233 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: trauma is. We'll get there, but I think that's what's 234 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,720 Speaker 1: so confusing about a lot of this stuff is it's 235 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: something that looks so pretty on the outside and the 236 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: heart of it is supposed to be good. So how 237 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 1: is it bad? So how does any of this stuff 238 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: that I'm taught that is actually supposed to be teaching 239 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:53,560 Speaker 1: me how to live a life that is going to 240 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: give me more and prepare me for what's next better? 241 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: How is this thing bad? And how do I know? 242 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: Like the discernment is so I don't even have the 243 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: word for it. Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves. I 244 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 1: want to get a picture of what is religious trauma? 245 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: How would you actually if a client was in front 246 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 1: of you being like I think I might be experiencing this, 247 00:12:15,559 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: but I don't really know what it is. What is it? 248 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: I think it's still comes from like something happened to 249 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 2: you or didn't happen to you. 250 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 3: That affected your body's ability to process. 251 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: And it comes from religious practices or teachings or a 252 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: religious institution that is abusive or destructive or degrading. And 253 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 2: it can take on different forms, even like there's yeah, 254 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: there's a spiritual abuse piece, which, like if religious trauma 255 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 2: is kind of speaking towards like religion or an institution itself, 256 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 2: spiritual abuse is often more like interpersonal. It's often between 257 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: like a person and another person, or a person in 258 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: a group of people, or you know, clergy or whatever, 259 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 2: so it's more interpersonal. But then there's also a doctrination. 260 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 2: And there's even just like having a traumatic event that's 261 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 2: associated with one's faith. So all these different things could 262 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:11,199 Speaker 2: be a part of the religious trauma umbrella. 263 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, what I think is important probably to note in 264 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 1: the beginning of this conversation is that we live in 265 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: the black and white society, and so things are all 266 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 1: good or they're all bad. And what I want people 267 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: to know who are doing the research and like this 268 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: feels like me is. Sometimes that results in you moving 269 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: far away from whatever church you're in, whatever spiritual practice 270 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: you're in, whatever group you are in, and that's necessary, 271 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: that's not always the experience. Yeah, you also have the 272 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,839 Speaker 1: ability to work through some of that and maybe you 273 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: and we'll get into the like deconstruction and reconstruction, but 274 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: maybe you do some work and you look at what 275 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: you want to keep and what you want to move 276 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: away from. But it doesn't have to be this black 277 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: and white because I've experienced some of this that I 278 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,120 Speaker 1: have to convert to another religion, or I can't have 279 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: any religion in my life, or I can't associate with 280 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: anybody who believes these things. Like I don't ever want 281 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: to send the message. I mean, there are times when 282 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: something is all bad. I will say that, but I 283 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: don't want to send the message that that's always what 284 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: this is. Yeah, but I do want to send the message. 285 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a lot of times. The purpose 286 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: of this podcast is giving people information so they have 287 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: the ability to discern what feels okay and what doesn't. 288 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: Especially in religious, spiritual types of environments. It feels like 289 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: you don't have the right to say that's not okay, 290 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 1: because in those kinds of situations, there's a hierarchy and 291 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: we're usually at the bottom, right, So I have to 292 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: listen to these people above me. And if I say that, 293 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: it's like I felt like growing up, I never had 294 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: the choice to question any I have the option to 295 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: question anything because who am I? And I just need 296 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: to trust these people and if they say this, then 297 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: you do that. And that's oftentimes I think what kids 298 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: view and school systems and all kinds of systems. I 299 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: want to give people the opportunity to start to question 300 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: wonder about things. 301 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's a healthy expression of religion 302 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 2: or a healthy expression of like you can tell you 303 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: might be in a healthy context of religion when you 304 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 2: are encouraged and allowed to question. But these situations where 305 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 2: you see religious trauma come out of there's a term 306 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 2: that someone in town. There's a therapist in town, doctor 307 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: Laura Anderson, and she's like an expert on this, and 308 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 2: she uses the term high control religion. And that's like 309 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 2: the context where you are discouraged from questioning. If you 310 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: have doubts, you are bad. It is shamed, It requires obedience, 311 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: it requires just kind of that like subservience and loyalty 312 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 2: to the beliefs. And so that's where it's like this 313 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: stuff starts to become under what could become religious trauma. 314 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 2: Religion itself is not just traumatic about it. You know, 315 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: like it's really healthy for a lot of people, and 316 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: it's in a healthy context or you're part of a 317 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 2: healthy congregation. So yeah, that's like an important distinction. 318 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 3: And I think I. 319 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: Like that if you feel like you were able to 320 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:23,360 Speaker 1: question and wonder and be curious, that's a sign of huh, 321 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: you might have been a good place. There still could 322 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: have been something there, of course, but if you feel 323 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: like you were not allowed to question anything, and if 324 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: you questioned something, you would be punished. Think about if 325 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: we were oh, think about if you were in school 326 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: and maybe people had this experience and you're learning I 327 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: don't know, you're learning something in math geometry and you 328 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: raise your hand and you're like, I don't get it. 329 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: If A plus B equals whatever, then how you ask 330 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: a question and your teacher like slaps your hand. It's 331 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: like you're being disruptive. I can't believe you would try 332 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: to clarify that, go to the principal's office. If I 333 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: was that parent that got called that my kid was 334 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: in trouble, I'd be like, what they were trying to 335 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: understand what you're teaching? Yeah, we should not be punished 336 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 1: for trying to understand something. 337 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 2: This is where it's like, oh, it's so vicious because 338 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: with religious trauma, imagine you're gonna get punished. It's not 339 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: just you're gonna get punished here, you're going to hell. 340 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 2: You're damned, your salvation's gone, like those are. That's like 341 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 2: the high stakes, you know, for a lot of people 342 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 2: in this experience and that fear that comes from it, 343 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:24,199 Speaker 2: you know. 344 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 1: And what always gets me is nobody really knows, right 345 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 1: from my understanding, nobody has gone to the afterlife and 346 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: come back. Well, I guess you know what religion you believe, 347 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: But nobody here on the earth right now really knows 348 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: that these are things that we have been taught to 349 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,120 Speaker 1: believe from things that have been passed down. So there's 350 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with believing in that faith. But we also 351 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: there is that part that it's natural to wonder, especially 352 00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: because a lot of religious especially Christianity, I mean, it's 353 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: well known that this is beyond our understanding, so to say, 354 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: like how dare you have curiosity in your brain? Doesn't 355 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,359 Speaker 1: really make sense? 356 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, right to me. 357 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: Personally, Okay, So we kind of talked about like one 358 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: way of knowing that, ooh, I might be experiencing some 359 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: of this spiritual religious abuse or trauma. What are some 360 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: other kind of like red flags that will help somebody 361 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: understand like, oh, that was me or I'm in that first. 362 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: I think it's important to note that, like, if you're 363 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,480 Speaker 2: feeling confused about your experience, that's normal, and that can 364 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 2: even be a symptom of the religious trauma itself because 365 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 2: a lot of it often involves increasing self doubt, like 366 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 2: vicious self doubt. You are probably losing your sense of self, 367 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 2: your personal identity or autonomy in these situations, so your 368 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 2: ability to think for yourself is kind of lost on you. 369 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: And that like lack of trust in yourself too, and 370 00:18:57,880 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 2: often lack of trust in others. So it can be 371 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: hot hard to see in ourselves when we're in the 372 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 2: middle of it, like because you're lacking that ability to 373 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 2: kind of trust yourself and trust your experience. 374 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: Which for anybody who's listened to multiple episodes on Unique Therapy, 375 00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 1: this is mimicking some of the narcissistic abuse. Yeah. Right, 376 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,520 Speaker 1: So when I start to lose my sense of self, 377 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 1: I start to not be able to question things. I'm 378 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: not allowed to wonder. I have to fall in line 379 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: with certain things, and when I step out of those bounds, 380 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,199 Speaker 1: I'm punished and then I'm the gas lighting. So I 381 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: imagine that something that happens very often in these spaces too. 382 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: There's a lot of gas lighting, which is just the 383 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: result is you feel crazy. Yeah, let me just give 384 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: a little example and see what you think about this. 385 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: And I'm speaking from not the context of a therapist. 386 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: I'm speaking from the context of a human who was 387 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: raised in a Christian environment. And I'm not saying that 388 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: I was raised in a super toxic Christian environment. This 389 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: is just something that I wonder what would you would 390 00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: say about this? So in Christian communities, oftentimes there are 391 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: teachings that are now called purity culture, and it's the 392 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: teachings are very much based around more specifically women. I 393 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: think men can very much be in that space, but 394 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: more specifically this is targeted towards women and what they're 395 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: supposed to do with their bodies, about their bodies, whether 396 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 1: that's how sexual they are, whether that's how they dress, 397 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 1: whether that's how they present themselves. But there's this idea 398 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:33,719 Speaker 1: that we must maintain this sense of pureness to do 399 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 1: right by the powers above and be good. It's so 400 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: interesting when I'm even describing this, because it's like, what 401 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: does that even mean? Like to be good by whose standard? 402 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: I guess, by gods. But there's just always this sense 403 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 1: of this is what's right when it comes to how 404 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: you present yourself, what you should be doing in your 405 00:20:54,680 --> 00:21:00,200 Speaker 1: bedroom or I don't know, on your kitchen table, whatever, 406 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: do what do you do? And I never felt personally, 407 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: I never felt as a kid growing up in a 408 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: Christian church that I had the ability to ask why. 409 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: It never felt that this is what you do. It 410 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: just is what it is. And Okay, as humans grow 411 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 1: up really easy to understand as like a six year old. 412 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,959 Speaker 1: Maybe as you grow up and you go through puberty, 413 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: you start to like boys, you start to do this, 414 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,159 Speaker 1: They're doing that. Why can't I do that? I have 415 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: this urge, I start to like, notice my body, I'm 416 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 1: getting boobs. I get that. Like then you start to 417 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: actually desire some of those things. Yeah, But like at 418 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: the same time, you can't ask why you already know 419 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: it's bad. So if I'm internalizing all of that, I'm 420 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: bad for having these desires, or these desires are bad. 421 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 1: Hide them. You never get to have that conversation of 422 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,399 Speaker 1: And it doesn't even mean I want to have this 423 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: conversation so I can go have wild sex with everybody, 424 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: right right, right. I want to have this conversation because 425 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: I want to understand and have more information about what 426 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: this all means. Is there a rhyme to this reason 427 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: or is it a reason to the rhyme? Right? There's 428 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: no rhyme. Oh, it's no rhyme or reasons it's the same. 429 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: Is there a rhyme or reason for this or did 430 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: somebody just decide this is what women should do and 431 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 1: this is what men should do, because it's very much 432 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 1: what you said in the beginning. It's this patriarchal like, 433 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:26,360 Speaker 1: this is how a woman should act. I didn't see 434 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,240 Speaker 1: that as again, I'm not a guy. I didn't see 435 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: it as much with men. I saw a lot of 436 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: do these things so men can control themselves. And if 437 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,120 Speaker 1: you don't, then it's not the men's fault that they 438 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: couldn't control themselves. It's your fault because you tease them 439 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: or you force them to have these urges. So I'm 440 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: just a shove mine down. I'm not sure what these 441 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: men are being taught about theirs, And it's just this. 442 00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,639 Speaker 1: You have no ability to wonder, so you have to 443 00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 1: make sense of that. This goes back to your definition. 444 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm forced to make sense of it, but I don't 445 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: have the ability to make sense of it. So I 446 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: make up a story. And the story is not always true. 447 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: Most of the time, it's not right. It's usually turned 448 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: it's inward of I'm bad. 449 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, So often like worth is attached to your I think, 450 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,199 Speaker 2: I think yeah, talking specifically, and like the white American 451 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: evangelical yeah presentation of purity culture, like for women, your 452 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: worth is attached to yeah, are you virgin? Ory? 453 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 3: Not what have you done? 454 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 2: And I wish because I think and I will. I 455 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 2: think I speak from my experience and also experiences I've 456 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: talked to with peers in this, like inexperiencing purity culture 457 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 2: is just the lack of education, because really it was 458 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 2: just like there's this message and don't do it, and 459 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: shame and a lot of shame. And when we feel shame, 460 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 2: we're not we're not asking questions. We're not able to 461 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: be curious because we're afraid. 462 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 1: Afraid. Yeah, that's important that you said that. That feels 463 00:23:56,640 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 1: very very important that we're not asking questions because we're afraid, 464 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: and then we're acting in this way because we're afraid, 465 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: And so there is this essence of using fear as 466 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: a motivator, and I don't love that. 467 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 2: That's not a good motivator for change, you know. No, Yeah, 468 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 2: and neither is shame. 469 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: And for like real understanding. Again, I'm not saying that 470 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: if people were given answers to questions they might ask, 471 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: they might say, okay, I get it now. But the 472 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: fact that we don't have the ability to ask that, 473 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: then we're doing things and we can't make sense of 474 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: our feelings. And so it then turns to that inWORD 475 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: against shame, I'm bad. There's something wrong with me. Everybody 476 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: else doesn't seem to have a problem with this. The 477 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: people that are teaching me this don't seem to have 478 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: a problem with this. We don't know if that's true, right, 479 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: because nobody's talking about it. 480 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 2: Right, And it's like when you haven't done okay, I 481 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: think about this like if I become a mom one day. 482 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: If I haven't done my own personal work around purity culture, 483 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 2: around sex, around my experiences of that, I'm not able 484 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 2: to come to my son or daughter and talk openly 485 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: it because I'm still in my shame about it. 486 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 3: So I think like. 487 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 2: We're often being taught by people who are still in 488 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 2: their shame about it or in messages that are just yeah, 489 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 2: shameful and fearful, and then the conversation doesn't be able 490 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,439 Speaker 2: to get to be have and or had, and a 491 00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 2: lot of people are left without like actual proper education 492 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 2: about sex and messages about it that are really unhealthy and. 493 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: Which give us the ability to actually make decisions and 494 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: give ourselves agency. We can make decisions and feel really 495 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: good about them. I think that is what really sucks 496 00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: is I think when we have these conversations, it's like, well, 497 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 1: you're just trying to get people to have sex all 498 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: the time, and that's not true. If we were able 499 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: to have these conversations and there was some understanding, there 500 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: would be a lot of different opinions. I think that's 501 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: the power of it. And when I make that if 502 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: I were to still make that decision too, in the 503 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: Christian sense, save myself for marriage, I could make that 504 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: choice out of agency and power versus shame and fear. 505 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. 506 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I know people who have done that, and 507 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: it's beautiful to watch that because they're not making that 508 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 2: choice in shame or of fear. But then I've seen 509 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 2: people who do that and sex is really hard in 510 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 2: their marriage and it's distressing. And that's where I see 511 00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: like the impact of some of this religious trauma come out. 512 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 3: I know. 513 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 1: So we're talking very much about, like again, the Christian 514 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 1: sense of this and the purity culture and the Christian sense, 515 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: but this is something that this can happen anywhere. It's 516 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,400 Speaker 1: not just in the Christian world. I think that's where 517 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: my head goes as a human more often because that's 518 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: the world I grew up in, right, But this can 519 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:46,479 Speaker 1: happen anywhere. This can happen in any religion. It is 520 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: very much tied to cult behavior and we're learning now 521 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,959 Speaker 1: through I mean, there's so much content on this in 522 00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: documentaries and stuff like that. There are so many institutions 523 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: out there that are presenting as a They all present 524 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 1: to offer something good, right. 525 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 3: That's that whole thing. 526 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so say whatever it's coming to your head 527 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 1: and when I said that, because your eyes. 528 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:10,920 Speaker 3: Just got big. 529 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 2: I know, because I'm so passionate about this, because here's 530 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 2: the thing, Like, I think this doesn't just apply for 531 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,679 Speaker 2: religious trauma. It's for any kind of abusive relationship. You 532 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 2: don't enter an abusive relationship and be like, sign me up. Yes, 533 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 2: you enter a relationship, or you belong to it. Are 534 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 2: you join a church? 535 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: Are you to this? Yeah? 536 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,640 Speaker 2: Because you have a need and they're promising something big, 537 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: And we all have a need for like community and belonging. 538 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: We rely on each other for survival, that's just part 539 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,400 Speaker 2: of it. So we have a need and that becomes 540 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: a vulnerability at times. And then you have this person 541 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,959 Speaker 2: in power who thinks they have power and are going 542 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 2: to abuse it, who's promising big promises and speaking into 543 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 2: that need. And so we go in and we join 544 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,159 Speaker 2: in hope of getting this need fulfilled, and then we 545 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 2: stay in fear. Because we're stuck in fear, we can't leave. 546 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: Did I tell you about that quote from the This 547 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: Is I don't know who the quote's from, but I 548 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: was reading articles on cults after I did all my 549 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:16,360 Speaker 1: cult research. Did I tell you about the girl who 550 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: whose family she was born into a cult and what 551 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: she said about her family. So I'll try to find 552 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: who this was. But she ended up writing a book. 553 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure. But she said, like what you said, 554 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,239 Speaker 1: nobody joins a cult wanting to ruin their lives. They 555 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: join a cult thinking, oh, this is going to solve 556 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: a problem that I have, whether it's in my culture, 557 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: in my society, in my heart, in my faith system. 558 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: I'm ascribing to a cult, and I'm joining this because 559 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: it's promising me a better life. We joined the wrong cult, 560 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: is what she said, Like my parents, like, because really, 561 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 1: so many things can be defined as a cult. But 562 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: she was like, my parents were looking for a better life. 563 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: We just made the wrong turn. We walked into the 564 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: wrong room. But they didn't join that because they want 565 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,959 Speaker 1: to torture themselves. In us, nobody does. But then you 566 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: can't get out. 567 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 568 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and often like those people leading it, leading the cult, 569 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: leading the institution, are so charismatic, they're charming. 570 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 3: Yeah. 571 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 2: And if that's the same with like, you can see 572 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 2: that in abusive relationships too. You there's this charm. Yeah, 573 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: there's a need and they're praying on people's desire for 574 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: connection with God. 575 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 1: But they need you just as much as you need 576 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: them exactly. Oh my gosh, So I think that's really interesting. 577 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 1: Something that I really try to reiterate when it comes 578 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: to people who find themselves in whether theyir abusive relationships 579 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: or the abusive narcissistic relationships, is how did this happen 580 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: to me? 581 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 3: Like? 582 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: What's against the shame of something must be wrong with 583 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: me that I let this happen. And there are things 584 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: that we need to look at. They're not bad things 585 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: about you, They's just things you want. We should explore 586 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: that you've never been able to explore before. But it's 587 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: also important to look at Yeah, you walked into that, 588 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: but I want you to know that the person that 589 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 1: you are in this relationship with, they were just as 590 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: vulnerable as you are. They need you just as much 591 00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: as you thought you need them. And the interesting thing 592 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:10,960 Speaker 1: is now you have the power to unknow that and 593 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: know that I don't need them. They're still in that 594 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: space where they are still needing the followers, the believers, 595 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: the people that are obsessed with them, the admiration all 596 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: they still need that. And there's something about you, and 597 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't mean it's a bad thing. Like they look 598 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: for people. I don't think most leaders and I'm not 599 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: an expert on this, so I could be wrong, but 600 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: I don't think most people who are trying to create 601 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: a movement and capitalize on people in these areas are 602 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: looking for people who are worthless and horrible and have 603 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: nothing to offer. They want good people and their cults. 604 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: So I think it's important, not tough. I must be 605 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: so weak in this and that, and they must looked 606 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: at me and felt so bad for me. It's like, no, 607 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: they probably felt something in you that they liked, and 608 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: then they saw something in you that they could take 609 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: advantage of us. Yeah, so really important to notice. So 610 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,239 Speaker 1: what would you say to somebody who is listening to this? 611 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, I think I might have experienced 612 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: that with the caveat. I don't want to believe this, right, 613 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: I think that was probably something that was hard for 614 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,120 Speaker 1: in my life. Of like, no, because if that's true, 615 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: then I have to do something about it. 616 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Oh my gosh. 617 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a he's listening to an audiobook and she 618 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 2: was talking about kind of like the deconstruction reconstruction experience 619 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: of faith. And I think what you're speaking to is 620 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 2: like your whole foundation is wrecked. The house you built 621 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: your life upon is wrecked. And that's what's so insidious 622 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: about this is like religion encompasses your view of self, 623 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: your view of the world, your view of God, and 624 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 2: so suddenly like your whole way of understanding life is wrecked. 625 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: And not to mention, like I said earlier, you have 626 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: so much self doubt and so your ability to even 627 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 2: like process through and understand, I imagine it's just like 628 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: a hamster on a hamster wheel, like you're going back 629 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: and forth. You don't know what to trust about yourself, 630 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,239 Speaker 2: your experience, and so I imagine there's a lot of 631 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 2: just like questioning yourself, questioning your experience, and doubting those experiences. 632 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 2: But if that is you, like if you're listening to 633 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 2: this and you're like, this could be me, I don't know, 634 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 2: I would say, what can we do to create more 635 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 2: space for that voice to speak up and lean into it, 636 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 2: because it probably has a lot to say. It's probably 637 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 2: holding a lot, and that's going to be unnatural and 638 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 2: hard to lean into that part of yourself or that 639 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: intuition that's saying like, oh my gosh, something could be wrong, 640 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: or this experience could be wrong. 641 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 3: It's probably really uncomfortable. 642 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: But uncomfortable doesn't mean it's unsafe. 643 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, And that voice could have so much to say. 644 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: And I want to add because you're right, like, there 645 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: needs to be a space for that voice to have space. 646 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: That's why we're in this situation. Going back to what 647 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: I said in the beginning of this, it does not 648 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 1: mean everything is going in the trash. You get to 649 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: rebuild something with that voice. You're not going to be 650 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,680 Speaker 1: walking around I mean for a period of time. Maybe 651 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,400 Speaker 1: I can't predict everybody's experience in this, but doesn't necessarily 652 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: you have to walk around with no belief system. You 653 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: get to be a part of creating that. 654 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 3: Yes. 655 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,040 Speaker 2: Yes, this author it's Sarah Bessie. The book I was 656 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 2: reading to it's called or listening to Out of Sorts. 657 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: She was describing this process like a rummage sale, and 658 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,920 Speaker 2: it's like the whole premise of the book is like 659 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 2: you're going through and you're deciding what to keep, what 660 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 2: to toss, and what you need to reclaim. And I 661 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 2: think what's important too, Like I guess, at least in 662 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: my experience of listening to voices speaking about this and 663 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 2: just what's out there about religious trauma. Nobody should be 664 00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,320 Speaker 2: telling you, Oh, you have religious trauma. You got to 665 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,480 Speaker 2: break from your religion. You can never go back, you 666 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 2: can't practice religion again, or you have the only option 667 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 2: is to deconstruct or to deconvert all these things that 668 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 2: might be what you need, but it's actually about what 669 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 2: you need or what you want, or what your destination, 670 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 2: what you want your destination to be, and you can 671 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 2: change your mind about that. One day you could be like, Yeah, 672 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 2: I really still believe in God and I feel really 673 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 2: good about this. The next day you're like, oh my gosh, 674 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: I gotta get out of this. I can't like, I 675 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:25,840 Speaker 2: can't go to church. I need a long break. 676 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 3: Oh. It's about trauma and formed care. 677 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 2: It's like giving the person in this situation the voice 678 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 2: and choice and empowerment to make that decision for themselves, 679 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: which can be hard when you are in experience where 680 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 2: you're being told what to do all the time, and 681 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 2: that's part of your religius drama experience. But to be 682 00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 2: able to make that decision for yourself what you want 683 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 2: your faith to become, if you want it to become anything, 684 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 2: that's ultimately that person's choice. 685 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:51,800 Speaker 3: Not anybody else's. 686 00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, which is why therapy is such a good space 687 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: for this to be explored in because if you're seeing 688 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: a truma informed therapist or a therapist that paid attention 689 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:07,720 Speaker 1: to anything, you're seeing a therapist who is opening space 690 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 1: for you to have agency. Yeah, sometimes we can encourage 691 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: you in something. We might you know, sometimes give an 692 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: opinion of something when the time is right. But the 693 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 1: real purpose is to help you figure out what you think, 694 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,640 Speaker 1: not to tell you what you should think. We can 695 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: give you facts, but we cannot tell you what is 696 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: right and wrong in certain situations like this, because it 697 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 1: goes back to like nobody actually really knows. Yeah, it's 698 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: a spiritual experience that is only it's felt within you. 699 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: I can't feel your spiritual experience for you, and so 700 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: I also can't tell you that you're wrong, and you 701 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 1: can't tell me that I'm wrong. 702 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:42,680 Speaker 3: Yeah. 703 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 1: Important disclaimer. I mean, therapy is the same thing as 704 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: every other thing we're talking about. And I am saying 705 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 1: this not because I want to scare people away from therapy, 706 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 1: but again, I want you to have agency in your 707 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: therapeutic experience too. Is I can go to a therapist 708 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,399 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm not being given a choice and something. Now, 709 00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,799 Speaker 1: it's different when it's like you're coming to therapy and 710 00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: you're like high, or you're drunk, or you are refusing 711 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: to eat and you're doing these things where like you 712 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 1: could die and it is within our ethical bounds that 713 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: we have to Okay, you need to eat food. We 714 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 1: can't be drinking and driving. Those are those are different. 715 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: Those are those extremes that I don't want you to 716 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 1: pocket that in there, Like my therapist told me that 717 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: I can't keep doing heroin, Like, well, yeah, it feels appropriate. Yeah, 718 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:27,879 Speaker 1: but if they're telling you what you have to do 719 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: with your own spiritual experience, that's something to pause and explore. 720 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 3: Big red flag. 721 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,560 Speaker 1: Yeah question because of how we even started this with 722 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: again the agency of we get to decide what it 723 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 1: feels traumatic and what's not. Do you believe it's possible 724 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: for two people to be exposed to the same experience 725 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: or both be I think it's different when I say 726 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: same experience, Like not everybody has the same experience anywhere, 727 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: but both maybe going to the same church or temple 728 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: or had the same I don't know group of people 729 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 1: that they grew up in. Can one have experienced religious 730 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,720 Speaker 1: trauma and one not, but they're in the same place. 731 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 3: Definitely. 732 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like that's the whole nuance of trauma itself. 733 00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 2: It's like I think about it with like a car crash. 734 00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 2: Two people can be in the car and get in 735 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 2: a car crash. One person can walk away with trauma, 736 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 2: not because something's wrong with them, just because of their body. 737 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 2: Previous experiences, vulnerabilities, genetic predispositions, all those things like make 738 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,360 Speaker 2: it so that their body wasn't able to process that 739 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: in that moment. So they walk away with trauma and 740 00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 2: the other person not because they're better or anything, just doesn't. 741 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,359 Speaker 2: And so same with this situation. That's not to say 742 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 2: though that like I mean, the car crash is still bad. Yeah, 743 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,960 Speaker 2: Like if you have an experience, it's still bad, but 744 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 2: you might not come away with symptoms of trauma. It's 745 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: about like, what how is your body responding? 746 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's such a good metaphor. Is that an analogy 747 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 1: or a metaphor? 748 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 3: I didn't know what alliteration was, don't ask me. 749 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: I think that's so good though, because I think it's natural. 750 00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,880 Speaker 1: Be like, again, shame what's wrong with me for me 751 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: not being able to process this again also like we 752 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: don't need to say, well, you were there too, so 753 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 1: you need to do this too, Like we need to 754 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: This is like the whole human experience. This is such 755 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:29,799 Speaker 1: a bigger conversation that's like, oh, it's like existential and 756 00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: bigger than my head of Like what is We have 757 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,240 Speaker 1: to allow people to be people. We need to allow 758 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,240 Speaker 1: humans to be individuals. And it is not our job 759 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: to I'm gonna try not to get like on a 760 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: tangent here, but it's not our job to regulate other 761 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: people's experiences and what they're doing. It's our job to 762 00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: regulate ourselves. It's our job to process our feelings. It's 763 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: our job to notice our feelings. That that's the only 764 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: thing that we really really and it comes down to it, 765 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: we're caring for an infant or a child. We do 766 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: not have the power to control other people's and even 767 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: when we're doing that, we don't have ability to control 768 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: your whole experience. But we can actually have agency over 769 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: ourselves if we believe that and allow ourselves to. Yeah, 770 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's not hard, doesn't mean you're not get 771 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: pushed back, which is a whole other thing of what 772 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: happens when you start to like, you know, go through 773 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,719 Speaker 1: the rummage, like do the whole thing of like rebuilding 774 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: the house. That's going to come with hard things. It 775 00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:34,360 Speaker 1: sounds like it's going to come with pushback from family, friends, leaders. Yeah, 776 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: what would you say to somebody who's like, Oh, what 777 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 1: happens when somebody tells me that I'm making a mistake 778 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: and I'm gonna regret this and I'm gonna, i don't know, 779 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: go to the underworld. 780 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 3: I love that term. Yeah, like first validate that, because 781 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:51,800 Speaker 3: that's scary. 782 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 2: I mean, I am a people pleaser, so if I'm like, 783 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,439 Speaker 2: I'm classic, like I tell a client to do something 784 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 2: and then it's like also really hard for me to 785 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 2: actually take that advice. But it's really scary to have 786 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,239 Speaker 2: your family mad at you because you are having this 787 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 2: experience tied to your faith or your spirituality and you're 788 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 2: sorting through it and they're mad, and like suddenly that 789 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 2: becomes feels threatening, you know, to your relationships or to 790 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,880 Speaker 2: your community, like because too, like so much of being 791 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,440 Speaker 2: a part of a faith or a religion involves community life, 792 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:28,759 Speaker 2: and so suddenly like you're you are questioning and trying 793 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,279 Speaker 2: to figure this out maybe taking space, and you are 794 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 2: maybe being cut off from some of that, and that's 795 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 2: really scary. I think what I would say is like, 796 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 2: sometimes that might be necessary for a time. 797 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: I was listening to The Toast this morning. It's a 798 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,600 Speaker 1: great podcast that is about pop culture, but I'm taking 799 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: something from it today because they were talking about Tom 800 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,919 Speaker 1: Cruise and scientology and I didn't know some of this 801 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,400 Speaker 1: were like he, I guess I didn't know he was 802 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: married to Nicole Kidman, but he was, and they had kids, 803 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,000 Speaker 1: and she left in our kids don't talk to her. 804 00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: This is what it said in this podcast. I did 805 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,759 Speaker 1: in fact check it. However, I was thinking about that. 806 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my, I was like, really taken aback 807 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: of Oh my gosh, Like her kids don't talk to 808 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,959 Speaker 1: her because she got out of this toxic environment. Also, 809 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: that's really hard because her kids are still in it, 810 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: and that's probably scary for her. I thought of it 811 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: when you said that, because when we leave a system 812 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: that isn't working for us anymore, there's a part of 813 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: this that probably wants to stay connected to that system 814 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,560 Speaker 1: to please the people we still love in that system. Yeah, 815 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: because just because you are learning that like this isn't 816 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: the place for me and I don't believe these things. 817 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,560 Speaker 1: Doesn't mean you don't still have a connection and a 818 00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 1: relationship and love for the humans that you met in 819 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,799 Speaker 1: those spaces. Again, it's not always all bad. And so 820 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: what I would offer in that is and it's not easy. 821 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: It's much easier said than done, is our Again, our 822 00:41:56,840 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: job is not to manage the feelings of the people 823 00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: that are still in that. Our job is not to 824 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:08,839 Speaker 1: manage and again, people please to fix. That's not our job. 825 00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: Our job is to manage the feelings that we have 826 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: about that experience. So how can I soothe myself in 827 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: the discomfort that I feel knowing that this person is 828 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,879 Speaker 1: scared for me even though I don't agree with them, 829 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,440 Speaker 1: I don't want I'm thinking of like like family of origin, 830 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,439 Speaker 1: stuff of my mom being scared, my dad being mad, 831 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: my sibling being whatever. I don't want my dad to 832 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,360 Speaker 1: be mad, and I don't want my mom to be scared. 833 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 1: And so rather than doing the thing that would make 834 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,319 Speaker 1: them not mad or scared, I have to do the 835 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: thing that soothes me so I can stand in my 836 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,160 Speaker 1: truth instead of enable them. Because if I'm taking care 837 00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: of their feelings. I'm enabling everybody to stay in the 838 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: system that I'm actually not agreeing with, so then I'm 839 00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:49,760 Speaker 1: abandoning myself. 840 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:51,640 Speaker 3: Yeah that's so good. 841 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:53,439 Speaker 1: I don't even know what I've really just said. 842 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,440 Speaker 2: But that's like when I sit with people who have 843 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 2: done that, like have made that choice for themselves, I 844 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 2: think they're so brave. Like there's some of the bravest, 845 00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:05,600 Speaker 2: strongest people I know. Because you have to think about 846 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,440 Speaker 2: how hard that was. You're breaking a pattern in your system, 847 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 2: or you're breaking away from a community where you you know, 848 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,759 Speaker 2: have so many ties too, and it's threatening, and you 849 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 2: made that choice for yourself for a reasonament of yourself. Yeah, 850 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,359 Speaker 2: and yeah, for your safety and health and all these things. Yeah, 851 00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, that's so brave because that was not easy. 852 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, the easy thing to do is to make sure 853 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:29,760 Speaker 1: that everybody feels good, good and pretty and nice exactly. 854 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 1: But again, comfort doesn't always mean we're safe, and this 855 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: comfort doesn't always mean we're unsafe. They very much are 856 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: the opposite. Sometimes that's so good. Okay, well this was 857 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:42,320 Speaker 1: again I hate this. I wanted to say, this is 858 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,959 Speaker 1: a fun conversation, but like I enjoy talking about these things, 859 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: but I don't love that they exist. Yeah, so I'm 860 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 1: not going to use the word fun. This was a 861 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: good conversation. 862 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:52,440 Speaker 3: How about that perfect? 863 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: If people want to contact you, how do you want 864 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:56,680 Speaker 1: them to do that? 865 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:01,440 Speaker 2: Well, they can find me at the Self Compassion counselor 866 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 2: on Instagram. 867 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: She's not on TikTok. Don't search there. 868 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, keep me accountable to that. I will not get 869 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:08,640 Speaker 3: on there. 870 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:13,000 Speaker 2: And you can find me on the Three Chord Therapy website. 871 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 2: I am on there, and there's a space for you 872 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 2: to email me. Yeah. 873 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,920 Speaker 1: You can reach out to her directly if you go 874 00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: to her page on Three Chords Therapy. I mean, you 875 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: can reach out on any page and ask for her, 876 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:27,000 Speaker 1: but you can directly reach out on her little page. 877 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: And I just had this thought as you said that 878 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,880 Speaker 1: about TikTok, is what a blessing for you to not 879 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: have TikTok in the process of planning your wedding. 880 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:37,520 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I can't imagine. 881 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,440 Speaker 1: So Julia just got married, was it March? Yeah? In March, 882 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,000 Speaker 1: and I'm now in the process of playing my wedding, 883 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,319 Speaker 1: and that is what keeps me up at night. Is 884 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: not always It's not like I'm comparing things. It's like 885 00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: idea after idea after idea after idea, And I pride 886 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:56,879 Speaker 1: myself and being somebody who doesn't really care that much 887 00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: about a lot of things. I just want to have fun. 888 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,920 Speaker 1: I really just want it to be fun. But then 889 00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: I'm like, but I'll never get to do this skin 890 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,879 Speaker 1: and all these people did this, and there's this, There's 891 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,359 Speaker 1: so much. It's like content overload of anything. Yeah, but 892 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,280 Speaker 1: how nice for you to just like plan your wedding 893 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,160 Speaker 1: and not have to unless you're watching the reels. 894 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,359 Speaker 3: Well, no you're not. Cat. 895 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 2: I have a confession. I didn't even know how to 896 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 2: make a reel when you like hired me, I did know. 897 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,320 Speaker 3: How to make a reel, so I literally had to 898 00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,839 Speaker 3: look it up. So no, I did not I mean 899 00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 3: I did not do that. 900 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,920 Speaker 1: Wait, that's really impressive. So I want you to go 901 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:40,279 Speaker 1: follow her and then follow at you therapy podcasts if 902 00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,080 Speaker 1: you don't, and look at the reels that she is. 903 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,720 Speaker 1: They're very good. You need to be doing some research. 904 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 3: I am research is mesearch. 905 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: Should be the title. 906 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:51,720 Speaker 3: Of the episode. 907 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, thank you for being here, and again you 908 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,719 Speaker 1: can follow You need therapy at you need Therapy podcast. 909 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,040 Speaker 1: You can follow me at cat dot Defada, you can 910 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: follow Julia at the Self Compassion counselor that feels like 911 00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,439 Speaker 1: I just said a lot, and you can find us 912 00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,120 Speaker 1: both and some other great therapists online at three quarters 913 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,440 Speaker 1: Therapy dot com. If you are connecting with any of 914 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: this and want to process some of it yourself, keep 915 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: in mind we can only work with clients that live 916 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: in Tennessee because we like to obey licensing laws and ethics, 917 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: so if you don't live in Tennessee, we cannot be 918 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,760 Speaker 1: your specific therapists. But as always, this podcast is always 919 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: allowed to serve as some kind of help wherever you are, 920 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:34,880 Speaker 1: so thank you for being here. If you have any questions, 921 00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,919 Speaker 1: you can email me Katherine at UNI Therapy podcast dot 922 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: com and until the next time we talk, have the 923 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: day you need to have