1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: On this episode of News World. Jonathan Martin and Alexander 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Burns have just written a stunning new book about the 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: last eighteen months of democratic and Republican behind the scenes 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: jockeying and government entitled This Will Not Pass Trump Biden 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: in the Battle for America's Future, and they've been doing 6 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: multiple media appearances and releasing audio clips from their reporting 7 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: for the book since it was published on May third. 8 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: Jonathan Martin is a national political correspondent for the New 9 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: York Times and a political analyst for CNN. He joined 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: The Times in twenty thirteen after working as a senior 11 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: political writer for Politico. Alexander Burns is a national correspondent 12 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: for New York Times and a political analyst for CNN. 13 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,319 Speaker 1: He joined The Times in twenty fifteen after working as 14 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: a reporter and editor at Politico. Do you guys sort 15 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,760 Speaker 1: of both have a similar political background anyway? You share 16 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: a birthday, which you speaker the two of you do. 17 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: We do not the same year, but the same day. 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 1: That's amazing, And you're obviously a very successful team. And 19 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: you've been getting just rave reviews about the book, which 20 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: I think is fascinating. I'm very delighted that you were 21 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 1: able to join me because they know how busy both 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: of you are, how much in demand you've been as 23 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: this book has taken off. But I'm curious, between the 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: two of you, how many years have you spent covering 25 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: politics in motion? Well, me in two thousand and five, 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: alex in Oa, so what was that? Thirty years? About 27 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: a little over thirty? Yeah, that's impressive. So you approach 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: this and of course in the classic traditional New York 29 00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: Times you have astonishing sources, which is one of the 30 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: great strengths of the Great Lady, even if one occasion, 31 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: as you can imagine, I'm not though, that thrilled with 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: some of their biases. You both are as experienced professionals, 33 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,960 Speaker 1: You've seen lots of books like this. When you sat 34 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: down to begin putting this together, what did the two 35 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: of you think would make it unique? First of all, 36 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 1: thanks for having us on, mister speaker, and we're excited 37 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: to be here. I think what we wanted to do 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: was something different from the traditional campaign books and also 39 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: different from the kind of you know, hurried and sort 40 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: of dashed off first drafts of history. We wanted to 41 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: create something more durable, and we wanted to take the 42 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: time to do it. We decided after the election that 43 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: we were going to take a little bit more time 44 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: to write this book. After January sixth, we said, let's 45 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: not rush this thing. Let's step back, do a lot 46 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: of reporting and write the fullest, richest, most comprehensive account 47 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: of this tumultuous period of American politics as we can, 48 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: and let's not try to rush it out this year. 49 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:09,440 Speaker 1: Let's start of take our time and really use calendar. 50 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: You're twenty one to report. And that's what we did, 51 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of your listeners will enjoy 52 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: it because it's not just purely an account of President Trump. 53 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: It's a much more comprehensive, panoramic version of events. It's Trump, yes, 54 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: but it's also Biden's first year in the White House. 55 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: It's also a lot of Congress. I mean, we have 56 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: a lot of material here from the House and Senate. 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: We spend a lot of time on the Hill. And 58 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: then lastly, it's beyond Washington. We have a lot of 59 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: reporting from governors, from mayors, from all levels of government. Yeah, 60 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: I should have added to that. I think Jonathan covered 61 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: it for the most part, but I think I would 62 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: just add new that you know, as you know, there's 63 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: a certain set of conventions around what kind of books 64 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: political reporters. Right that. Over here on one shelf there 65 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: are campaign books, and those books start with the eventual 66 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: winner announcing his campaign and they end with election day. 67 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: And over here on a different shelf are books about 68 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: the presidency, and those start after the campaign is over. 69 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: And on a third shelf, and frankly a smaller shelf 70 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: books about Congress. And we felt like we wanted to 71 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 1: do something that crossed those genres, and we just sort 72 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: of reject the conventions that separate politics from policy and government, because, 73 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: as you know very well, there's just actually no distinguishing 74 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: them in those bright line terms. In the end, it's 75 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: all about personalities, policies, and positions weaving together. And of 76 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: course I don't know of many occasions, maybe Buchanan being 77 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,839 Speaker 1: followed by Lincoln, but there very few occasions we have 78 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: the scale of personality change that you get between Trump 79 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: and Biden or between the two teams. I mean, it 80 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: seems to me you are covering a moment that has 81 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: an extraordinary scale of change involving No it's true, and 82 00:04:58,160 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: you know, Alex and I talk about this often. You know, 83 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:06,720 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's grounding is sort of mostly in the real estate, casino, hotel, 84 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: and then frankly the celebrity world. You know, Joe Biden's 85 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: grounding is with you know, politicians who come from the 86 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: World War One era. In some cases, you know, he 87 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: served with people like John Stennis and Sam irv And 88 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: these are figures torn from the American history books and 89 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: Donald Trump's frame of references, like you know, Mike Tyson 90 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: and Herschel Walker and Michael Jackson, and it's just so 91 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: profoundly different. They're close in age, but their life experiences 92 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: so extraordinarily different. The daily shows, Trevor Noah said the 93 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: book was like the Real Housewives of Washington, DC, which 94 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: I actually takes a great compliment. I wonder how you 95 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: guys reacted to it. I totally welcome that. It's what 96 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: you were saying, that the personalities and policies weaving together. 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: And I think that there's this again, this convention and 98 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: someone pampas convention in political reporting, where over here we're 99 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: going to cover the sort of drama of the campaign. 100 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: Over here, we're going to cover, you know, the school 101 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 1: of Athens debating what kind of tax policy we're going 102 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: to have or what kind of defense posture we're going 103 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: to have, and more than ever, frankly in the Trump era, 104 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: and then because of the staggering shift in the personalities 105 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: involved the Trump are into the Biden era, those are 106 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: obviously sort of inseparable lines of reporting. You had the 107 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: drama of Donald Trump and his world, you had the 108 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: drama of Biden and his world, and you had this 109 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: chaotic nightmare of January sixth, So there's sort of like 110 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: three different acts going on, all of which kind of 111 00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: weave together. Does that kind of fit how the picture 112 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: began to emerge for YouTube? It does? And I think 113 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: that the sort of overarching question that ties them all 114 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: together is does this political system work? Can it be 115 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 1: made to work? And I think that typically in these 116 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 1: times when people ask that question, they're referencing basically the 117 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: first act of the book, which is the trials and 118 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: tribulations and failures on the Trump administration. But the transfer 119 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: of power was an extraordinarily a fraud period for our country, 120 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: and the first year of the Environment administration brought a 121 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: whole new set of trials of its own. That for 122 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,560 Speaker 1: the Democrats who thought that a new president was going 123 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 1: to come in with his sort of team of more conventional, 124 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: Edder trained advisors and sort of whipped this country into shape. Well, 125 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: the story has obviously been a lot more complicated than that, 126 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: and by the time we got to the point of 127 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: turning in the book, it was clear that Democrats were 128 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: facing a pretty significant set of disappointments of their own. 129 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 1: Having lived through all this stuff, going back to my 130 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: first race was in nineteen seventy four, in the middle 131 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: of Watergate, which turned out down to be as good 132 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: a year for Republicans to run as I could have picked. 133 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: But then the second time I lost, I got forty 134 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: eight and a half percent. The second time I read 135 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: was with Jimmy Carter at the head of the Democratic 136 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: ticket in Georgia, who was turned out also not to 137 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: be the best possible year to run. But then we 138 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: got into the Carter flation cycle and all the things 139 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: we had to go wrong for Jimmy. And in some 140 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: ways there are some parallels, at least from my experience, 141 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: between Carter and Biden in terms of things that start 142 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: to get out of control and you don't know how 143 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: to deal with them, And in a sense, I think 144 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: that's what happened to Trump with COVID that he sort 145 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: of had things under control of things. We're sort of 146 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: going all right up through January, and then this worldwide pandemic, 147 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 1: which frightens everybody. I think, just sort of devours the 148 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: year in terms of Trump, and he can never quite 149 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: get his footing again. Three things happen at the outset 150 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty, but I think undermine Trump's prospects for reelection. 151 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: COVID is the obvious one, the economic impact of COVID 152 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: is the second one. And then the sudden collapse of 153 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: Bernie Sanders. And I think the sort of combination of 154 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: those three factors really torpedoed his reelection because he was 155 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: banking on running on peace and prosperity and against the 156 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: sort of perceived accesses of the opposition. And when he 157 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: didn't have Bernie to run against that, he lost the 158 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: economic card and then lost obviously it was a public 159 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,040 Speaker 1: health card that was really tough for him to overcome. 160 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: I think by some time in Midsummer he clearly is 161 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 1: now the underdog, which is not at all what he 162 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: had thought would happen. And I've always wondered Biden, on 163 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: the one hand, ran a brilliant basement campaign. On the 164 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: other hand, as I've watched Biden over the last year 165 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 1: and a half, I've wondered if they almost didn't have 166 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: to run a basement campaign, although at the time, I 167 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: think he was in better shape as a person in 168 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 1: twenty twenty than he is now just looking back at 169 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 1: some of his appearances. But did you get that sense 170 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: that it was more calculated politically than as a function 171 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: of his personality at that point. Well, I think it's 172 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,439 Speaker 1: certainly both. But it's one of the conversations that Jonathan 173 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 1: and I had almost daily at the start of the 174 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 1: general election in twenty twenty, and we had it with 175 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: our editors and with readers and sources who I mean, 176 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: you have a sense of the ideological orientation of readers 177 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: in the New York time. But I think that there 178 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: was a lot of anxiety that Biden was letting this 179 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,320 Speaker 1: thing get away from him by sitting in the basement 180 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: all that time. And the reality was his campaign for 181 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: the most part, felt pretty good about running this modified 182 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: subterranean Rose Garden strategy, right because if he was out 183 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: there on the rope line every day, he's getting questions 184 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: and he'll answer them, and who on earth knows what 185 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,439 Speaker 1: he'll say, right And by the way, the same is 186 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: to a different and perhaps lesser extent true of his 187 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: eventual running mate. That you know, Kamala Harris is a 188 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: primary candidate in the Democratic race, was really prone to 189 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 1: sort of stepping on a rate here and there, and 190 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: that was not as much of an option in the 191 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: general election. One of the things that we report in 192 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: the book New is that Ron Klaine was actually one 193 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,720 Speaker 1: of the real doubters of the basement strategies, firing off 194 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: emails to the Biden campaign high command saying you were 195 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: losing the election, get him out of the basement, And 196 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: for the most part they didn't, and for the most 197 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: part that worked for them. I think it brilliantly became 198 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: a referendum on Trump as opposed to a choice. Yeah, 199 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: if you told the sort of democratic operative class, you 200 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: can run a twenty twenty campaign against Donald Trump in 201 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: which you could keep your two gaff prone ticket mates 202 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: basically away from any questions from voters or the press 203 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: or the duration of the campaign and turning into a 204 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: referendum on Joe Biden. They would take that deal. Every day. 205 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: There are two women that are prominent in your book 206 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: from very different angles. And let me say, by the way, 207 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,880 Speaker 1: that Trump used me as a stalking horse for a 208 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: brief period while he was picking Pence. Weren't you there 209 00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: in Indianapolis when Pence? Yes, I went out and we met, 210 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: and he went through the motions, partly to Sean Hannity, 211 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: and I finally turned and I said, you know, you 212 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: don't have any choice. I said, you're a pirate and 213 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm a pirate. You can't have a two pirate ticket. 214 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: You need Pence to reach out to normal human beings. 215 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:17,960 Speaker 1: You need the first mate over here, the commodore, the 216 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: British Royal Navy, Mike Pence at any event. So let's 217 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: start with the more prominent the two women, and that's 218 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:29,200 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, who I think I don't understand, given how 219 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: badly she performed as a candidate, why they would have 220 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: picked her. Well, I think the answer overwhelmingly is that 221 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: it was a really short term calculus that they wanted 222 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: a candidate who was not going to surprise them. They 223 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: wanted a candidate who was going to represent sort of 224 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: a gesture to a younger generation, although not a wild 225 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: leap in generations. They felt it was very very important 226 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: that they have a woman of color, and post George Floyd, 227 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: a black woman. And you know, the argument again that 228 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,079 Speaker 1: we report that claim made in particular was, listen, you 229 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: should choose someone who's run for president themselves, even if 230 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: they haven't done a particularly good job of it, which 231 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: she didn't, but because they know what it's like under 232 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: the hot lights. And if you choose someone like a 233 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan, or a Tammy Duck 234 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: or at the senator from Illinois, you know, they're impressive 235 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: people in their own right, but they've just never been 236 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: on this kind of stage before. And look, I think 237 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: as a long term proposition, that's obviously been a pretty 238 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: mixed bag for the Biden team and for the Biden 239 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 1: Harris partnership, but overwhelmingly knew it. I think we can't 240 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: stress enough that are reporting for the book show that 241 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:38,439 Speaker 1: they were thinking basically just like, what do we need 242 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: to do to get through the remaining twelve weeks or 243 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: so and get past Trump in November Mona. In that sense, 244 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: it worked, although it has been a puzzlement to me 245 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: ever since. I have to jump to the other woman 246 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: who is I think fascinating in this period, somebody I've 247 00:13:53,960 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 1: known for most of her life and I've been astonished 248 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: at how she's evolved. And that's Liz Cheney, who I 249 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:05,559 Speaker 1: think is one of the most interesting characters in contemporary 250 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: American politics. So you and Cheney were in the same 251 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: class right seventy eight. I mean, he'd been the youngest 252 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: chief of staff to a president in history, and I 253 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,720 Speaker 1: was a twice defeated assistant professor to State College. Otherwise, 254 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 1: we were exactly even when we arrived in the class 255 00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: of nineteen seventy eight. And I like Dick a lot. 256 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: I like his whole family. I think that Lynn has 257 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: been a great historian. Dick and I were very very close. 258 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: I mean, I suspect we wouldn't be right now, but 259 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: we were at that time. And I knew Liz through 260 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: various parts of her career, and I think very highly 261 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 1: of her. And I've just been watching this sort of 262 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: kind of like a whirling dervish process of evolution. So 263 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: I want to answer your question on Liz Cheney in 264 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: a minute, but it just occurs to me, Alex sitting here, 265 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: that there would be a hell of a book to 266 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: be written about sort of the history of the GOP 267 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: through the prison of Cheney and ging Rich, the class 268 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: of seventy eight from then till today, just tracing those 269 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: two characters. George N. Wyoming I love it anyways. So 270 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: on Liz Cheney, well, she for down the line traditional conservative. 271 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: She's a hawk. I think she is somebody who was 272 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: never a huge Trump fan. I think after he refused 273 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: to concede defeat, I think she was appalled by that, 274 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,960 Speaker 1: and I think the event of January sixth have really 275 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: shaped her. She deeply believes that Donald Trump presents a 276 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: threat to the constitution, that he must not be allowed 277 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: to run for office again. I think her father shares 278 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: her concerns, and I think that she, as time has 279 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: gone on, has just gotten more emboldened about speaking out 280 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: regarding her feelings. But we have a scene in the book, 281 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: even in the hours after Trump's rally on the Ellipse 282 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: where he first sort of you know, invoked her name 283 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: and said we got to beat her. She was already 284 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 1: enraged at Trump. She told a colleague, I think coming 285 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,040 Speaker 1: back to the capital from the evacuation, you know, we 286 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: had to impeach the son of a bitch, you know, 287 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: just hours after the attack happened. She is somebody who 288 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: I think didn't take long in private to start really 289 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: feeling radicalized by Trump, but in public I think it 290 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: was a matter of weeks and months to try. I 291 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: think now she's obviously sort of made her peace with 292 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: Trump and with Kevin McCarthy and the party. Yeah, I 293 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: mean it strikes me now that she's clearly off on 294 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: a different path that has no potential for turning back. No, 295 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: you're totally right, and I think that she would be 296 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 1: fine becoming a political martyr of sorts this summer in 297 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: her primary in Wyoming. And I think that if she 298 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: does lose, I think she's very much open to running 299 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,360 Speaker 1: for president, either as a Republican or as some kind 300 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: of a third party keen to try to stop Trump. 301 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: I had a very informed Wyoming politician tell me that 302 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 1: she thought that the odds were very high that Liz 303 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: would in fact not file and would take the money 304 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: she's raised just launched an independent candidacy. Now, I think, 305 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: in the John Anderson tradition, she might actually hurt the 306 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 1: Democrats more than the Republicans, and that she had better 307 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: think carefully about how that evolves. It's a great point. 308 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: You know, she and her father have lived enough political 309 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: history to recognize that she could do just that. So 310 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: it's gonna be fascinating to see how that unfolds. You know, 311 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: we've asked the same question about her re election, you know, 312 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: is she actually gonna file? Is she actually gonna run 313 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: to the primary? And they swear up and down that 314 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: she is in fact going to run, and the primaries 315 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: in August. You know, it's now mid May, so there's 316 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: not much time left and new. You know, unlike some 317 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: of the other folks who voted for impeachment and have 318 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 1: since bowed out of reelection Adam Kinsinger, John Katko, Fred Upton, 319 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: she can't claim that she's been jerrymandered out of her seat, right. 320 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: They're not redrawing that this year, den wyoming to her detriment. Well, 321 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 1: and I think part of what happens to munch of 322 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 1: them is that they just get tired. You go back home, 323 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: and the Trump base, for better or worse, is ferocious 324 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,359 Speaker 1: and intense, yielding, and I think you just get tired 325 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 1: of trying to deal with it. I think that's totally true. 326 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: You know, some of them have legitimate concerns about their security. 327 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: Liz Chinese staff gets briefed on threats to her every week. 328 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: There are members on both sides of the Aisle who 329 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: you know, and some of them it's not even for 330 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 1: particularly ideological reasons. There's just a lot of angry people 331 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:22,120 Speaker 1: out there in the country, and a lot of those 332 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: angry people have some in some cases pretty specific and 333 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: pretty scary stuff to say about their elected representatives. And 334 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: you see this big exodus from the House, predominantly on 335 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:35,680 Speaker 1: the Democratic side, anticipating that it's going to be a really, 336 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: really bad campaign season for them. But across the Aisle, 337 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: I do think there's just this incredible sense of fatigue 338 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:43,680 Speaker 1: and this sense that, you know, too many of the 339 00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: voters are too hostile. The pattern that's evolving reminds me 340 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: a great deal of the rise of the Jacksonians at 341 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: the state level. There's a very interesting book that looks 342 00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: at polks, the one who becomes the most famous and 343 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: becomes president, but yet all these candidates for governed etc. 344 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: Who are clearly Jackson's people and represented this kind of 345 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: populism and this kind of anti Eastern attitude, and you 346 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: sort of see that grinding its way through the Republican 347 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: Party right now, with some exceptions as we saw in Nebraska. 348 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, I think there's no question that 349 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: there is a much more you can call it Trumpus, 350 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:22,960 Speaker 1: you can call it nationalist, but it's sort of a 351 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: much more Sorci and jd Vance. Now, Hi, you you 352 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: see it in a handful of other people in the party. 353 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: It's sort of less Reaganite conservative. I think it is 354 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,760 Speaker 1: more popularist, more nationalist fueled. It's sort of not the 355 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: small government JEFFERSONI. And it's a very different flavor. Didn't 356 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 1: you kind of feel like you almost had to pinch yourself? 357 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,239 Speaker 1: But here you are writing a book right on the 358 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: cusp of one of the most complicated and tumultuous periods 359 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: of American political history. You're talking to all these people, 360 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,120 Speaker 1: You're getting this caste of all the turmoil in both parties. 361 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,640 Speaker 1: Didn't you feel sort of like it was a great privilege? 362 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: We sure did, And I think it's something that you know, 363 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: as a historian, you'll particularly appreciate that. I think there 364 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: was this sense certainly early in my career as a reporter. 365 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: I think Jonathan would likely say the same, that you 366 00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,920 Speaker 1: know we're like a fifty two forty eight country one 367 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: way or the other, that our elections can only be 368 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:40,239 Speaker 1: so unpredictable, the outcomes can only be so wild. And 369 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: the first part of that is still true, that we 370 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 1: are like a fifty two forty eight country on a 371 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: lop sided day. But you know, at the start of 372 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,959 Speaker 1: this campaign, we've thought about doing a campaign book for years, 373 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: and every time knew what has stopped us or given 374 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: us pause anyway, is like it's a lot of work 375 00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: to write a book. It's really hard, and you want 376 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: to do something that's going to have a shelf life 377 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 1: of longer than like four days, right, And too many 378 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,959 Speaker 1: campaign books, even the really really good ones I just 379 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 1: fade really fast if they don't sort of capture something 380 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: bigger about the moment and the period that we're in. 381 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: And at the start of this campaign, we thought it 382 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: was clearly going to be a big one because of 383 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: who Donald Trump was and because of who the Democratic 384 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: nominee might be. By the time we get to COVID hitting, 385 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: we're obviously living through something that is much much bigger 386 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: than a conventional between the forty yard lines American presidential election. 387 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: Certainly by the time you get to January sixth, and so, yeah, 388 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: it was thrilling in a huge privilege and also an 389 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: enormous challenge to try to capture this moment of real 390 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 1: testing up and down the American political system. What was 391 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: so striking living through January sixth and the days after 392 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: seeing the barricades outside the capital, seeing the German Sheppard 393 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: sniffing for bombs to LP the Capitol complex, seeing damage 394 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: to the Capitol itself, Oh my goodness. I mean, it 395 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: was sort of tangible that you were covering in this 396 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: historic period. And I think that's why we decided, let's 397 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: not rush this, Let's not tack on January sixth as 398 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: sort of this hurried epilogue. Let's make this an important 399 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: part of the story and take our time doing so, 400 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: and most importantly nude, Let's talk to every member that 401 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,680 Speaker 1: we can. And I think that's what makes this book 402 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: stand out is we do a lot of reporting with lawmakers, 403 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: especially in the House, who you know, frankly, either don't 404 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: seek attention or don't really want attention, and we sat 405 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: down with them on both sides of the aisle, and 406 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: we're able to sort of draw on their experiences on 407 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: the sixth, before the six after the sixth to really get, 408 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: but I think is a rich, comprehensive account of this 409 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: period in American history. And one of the things I 410 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: most admire about how you've done this is you had 411 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: a chance to end shortly after January sixth. That would 412 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: have been a Trump book, and you had no real 413 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,280 Speaker 1: way of knowing how fascinating the Biden period would be. 414 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: And I think by any reasonable standard, while it's very 415 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: different from Trump, it's equally fascinating. I'm glad you think so. 416 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, one of the things we're obviously very very 417 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: appreciative of all the attention that are reporting on our 418 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 1: Republicans has gotten. But you know, almost half the book 419 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,359 Speaker 1: is not Democrats, and some real challenges political challenges that 420 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: they've had as a party, and some real internal, you 421 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 1: really important, maybe sort of ethic defining debates about what 422 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: kind of party they want to be and what kind 423 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: of country they think we ought to have. And you know, 424 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: again Jonathan alluded to our decision to sort of take 425 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: some time on this one. If we had ended this 426 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: after January sixty to write, it would have been a 427 00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: Trump book. If we had turned this thing in a 428 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: year ago, in the spring of twenty twenty one. I 429 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: think this would have been a book about the sort 430 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: of dark last days of the Trump administration and boys, 431 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: Joe Biden off to a roaring start, right, COVID is receiving, 432 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: economy is coming back, he passed the American Rescue Plan, 433 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: build back Better is right around the corner, and thank goodness, 434 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: Oh he didn't turn this thing in last mate, because 435 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: it's obviously a much more complicated and for Democrats, a 436 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: much more painful story than that. Have you two begun 437 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: to think about the next book picking up, you know, 438 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: sort of the last year of Biden and the first 439 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: year of whoever shows up in twenty six I think 440 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: the challenge, you know, for any future project that we 441 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,399 Speaker 1: would do, whether it's just reporting in our day jobs 442 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: or a book project nude, I'm gonna really pan or 443 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: do you here? You know the folks who went to 444 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: the moon and then they came back, they felt like, well, like, 445 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: what can talk go into the moon? This is an 446 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 1: unbelievably rich reporting experience, and really feel like we captured 447 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: a crucial moment in modern American political history. Every election 448 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: is super important. I don't know that you could tell 449 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,239 Speaker 1: a story of the same weight. If we end up 450 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: with like a rerun of Biden versus Trump in twenty 451 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: twenty four. Maybe you can, maybe you can't. I don't 452 00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: know that that's the election we're going to get. I 453 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: think it's very possible that we get the polar opposite 454 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: of that outcome, where neither of them runs, and it's 455 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: just a total stampede on both sides, and it's a 456 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: real time for choosing for both parties and ultimately for 457 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: the country, and that would be one hell of a story. 458 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: The fitful transition of power in both parties in the 459 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 1: next year and a half could be a pretty compelling 460 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 1: story if we get that story. It's not clear that 461 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: we're going to I'm just gonna say, because I may 462 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: Reagan knite and therefore an optimist, considering that he was 463 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: an FDR Democrat, it seems to me that we may 464 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: be at the beginning of opening up rather than closing 465 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: down that in fact, there are so many different things 466 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: going on simultaneously that we may be very surprised at 467 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: the evolution of the next three or four or five 468 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,160 Speaker 1: years in ways we haven't thought about. That we'll look 469 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: back later and say, oh, yeah, now it's obvious, but 470 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: it won't be obvious to those of us who are 471 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: living through it as we move forward. And I think 472 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: that may be true in both parties. I couldn't agree 473 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: with war with that, and so much of the last 474 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: few years, with COVID as a very very important exception, 475 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: has felt like our political system grappling with kind of 476 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: the unfinished business of the twentieth century and with leaders 477 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: who represent the sort of unexpired leadership tier of the 478 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,199 Speaker 1: twentieth century. And over the next couple of years, I 479 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 1: think the combination of new foreign policy challenges, new domestic 480 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: challenges are related to energy and medicine and the changing 481 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: structure of the economy, and then very likely, at least 482 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: on one side, if not on both, the emergence of 483 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: a new and different generation of personalities at the forefront 484 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: of American politics. I agree with you. I think that 485 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: it's very, very hard to anticipate exactly what trajectory things 486 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: are going to take, or what the basic terms of 487 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: debate in American politics will even be. In another couple 488 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 1: of years, it's possible that Biden could be closer to 489 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: representing the sort of last of the Humphrey Democrats that 490 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: he is to anything that's about to come next. For 491 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: what Democrats are, Kevin McCarthy said that if you take 492 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: the combined age of the top three Democrats in the House, 493 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: they would go back to seventeen seventy seven. You know, So, 494 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 1: in a sense, you've had open terma on the Republican 495 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: Party because we don't have the presidency right now, and 496 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: we don't have the speaker and the majority leader. But 497 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: you also, I think see tremendous underlying pressure among the Democrats, 498 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: and I could imagine three or four years from now 499 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: that the landscape will be amazingly different. Yeah. I think 500 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: what Trump did is, you know, enlarge their coalition to 501 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: the point of almost bursting, right, because it now contains 502 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: everything from AOC and actual socialists to people who were 503 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: basically conservative Democrats like Joe Minchin and even disaffected Republicans 504 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: like some of your old friends at the Weekly Standard Nude. 505 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: That's a pretty big coalition, and it's not a very 506 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: coherent one except for when it's organized around one thing, 507 00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: which is opposition to Donald Trump. And if you don't 508 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: have that organizing principle anymore, well, what happens to the 509 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: coalition right, you could also have the re emergence of 510 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 1: Trump and Ways, which would be a total nightmare for 511 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: Bill Crystal. I mean it could be an AMC movie series. 512 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: To put it differently, I want to thank you for 513 00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 1: joining me to talk about your fascinating new book, and 514 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: I want to let our listeners know the book is 515 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: This will Not Pass Trump Biden in the battle for 516 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: America's future. I encourage everyone to pick up a copy 517 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: and we'll have a link to it on our show 518 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: page at newtsworld dot com. And for those who may 519 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: want to see them in person, they are currently on 520 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: a media tour across the country. They'll be in San Francisco, Portland, 521 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: and Los Angeles this coming week. We're thrilled to chat 522 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: with you about the book and appreciate the plug and 523 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: appreciate your taking the time, dude, really appreciate your having 524 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: us on and know as we keep an eye out 525 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 1: for that new narrative, I'm sure you will be a 526 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: couple steps ahead of us, so stay in touch. Thank 527 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: you to my guests Jonathan Martin and Alex Burns. You 528 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: can get a link to buy their new book, This 529 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: Will Not Pass on our show page at Newtsworld dot com. 530 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: Newtsworld is produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 531 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,040 Speaker 1: executive producer is Garnsey Slow, our producer is Rebecca Howell, 532 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 533 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Pendley. Special thanks to the 534 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: team at Gingwide three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 535 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 536 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 537 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 538 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: of Newtsworld can sign up from my three free weekly 539 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: columns at Gingwich three sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 540 00:29:47,720 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: Newt Gingridge. This is Newtsworld. I