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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Tutor Dixon Podcast in the Clay

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Speaker 1: and Book podcast Network.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Today should be a

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Speaker 2: very interesting conversation as we dig deep into the division

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Speaker 2: between our nation's political parties. I'm joined by a man

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Speaker 2: who knows a little bit about impeachments. Julian Epstein was

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Speaker 2: the chief counsel to the House Judiciary Committee fighting Bill

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Speaker 2: Clinton's impeachment. Now we're two impeachments, two impeachments and one

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Speaker 2: impeachment inquiry later, some of us are asking if this

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Speaker 2: justice system is becoming a political weapon, and if so,

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Speaker 2: where does that lead. Julian Epstein, thank you so much

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Speaker 2: for joining me, Tudor.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me on the podcast. And it's a

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Speaker 1: delight to meet you. As I was just saying a

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Speaker 1: few minute ago, I watched you on the campaign trail

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Speaker 1: last year, and I was very impressed with a lot

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Speaker 1: of what you said, and I actually thought you were

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Speaker 1: going to be one of the upside candidates that was

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Speaker 1: going to win and the last but I enjoyed watching

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Speaker 1: you very much and I was very impressed by your candidacy.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that well you've been in this political world

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Speaker 2: a lot longer than I have. I obviously lived through

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Speaker 2: watching the Bill Clinton impeachment from the outside, and you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm probably at that point, I think in college, thinking

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Speaker 2: what does this all mean? I'm at that point, I think,

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Speaker 2: just a few years younger than Monica Lewinsky. And I

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Speaker 2: don't think I could see it then for what I

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Speaker 2: see it as now. But I mean in the midst

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Speaker 2: of what I look at back then. Gosh, I just

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Speaker 2: saw John Fetterman tweet something that I would think would

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Speaker 2: get most people impeached back in the nineties. Now, you know,

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Speaker 2: like things have changed. Let's just say that things have

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Speaker 2: really changed. But we also see we had two impeachments

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Speaker 2: of President Trump and now we have an impeachment inquiry

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Speaker 2: into President Biden. Is that going to be the new normal?

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Speaker 2: And how much does that take away from our power

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Speaker 2: as a country, our preparedness as a country, our ability

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Speaker 2: to protect our own citizens and make sure that we're

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Speaker 2: keeping control over national security and all the things that

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Speaker 2: you have to do as a US government if you're

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Speaker 2: constantly embroiled in some impeachment inquiry.

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Speaker 1: I think it's an excellent question, and I worry that

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Speaker 1: it is becoming the norm. I remember giving an interview

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Speaker 1: to The New York Times during the first Trump impeachment

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Speaker 1: saying that impeachment was going to become increasingly a political

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Speaker 1: weapon rather than a tool of legal accountability, sort of

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Speaker 1: like the War of the Roses going back a few centuries,

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Speaker 1: and it would just be this sort of unending payback

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Speaker 1: that was going to go on. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: think there's some of that going on here, and I

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Speaker 1: think in general it is our system of accountability, whether

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Speaker 1: you talk about impeachment or whether you talk about Justice

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Speaker 1: Department enforcement of laws against political figures, is becoming way,

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Speaker 1: way too politicized. And I think there are probably sins

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Speaker 1: on both sides, But to your point, it is as

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Speaker 1: it did during the Trump presidency. It sucked up all

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Speaker 1: the oxygen. Russia Gates sucked up the oxygen for all

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Speaker 1: four years of the Russia of the Trump presidency. You know,

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Speaker 1: notwithstanding the fact that the Durham Report found there really

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Speaker 1: wasn't the quotion of evidence to begin the investigation in

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Speaker 1: the first place. I think the Democrats grossly overplayed their

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Speaker 1: hand on the whole Russia Gate matter, and arguably impeachment

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Speaker 1: as well, and I think it is. It is becoming

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Speaker 1: the political norm. You look at just the and I

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Speaker 1: know you spoke about this is one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: I was so impressed with your candidacy last year. You talked,

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Speaker 1: you spoke about educational performance in the public schools and

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Speaker 1: how poor our performance in the public schools, and how

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Speaker 1: few high school are proficient in math and English, and

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Speaker 1: how those numbers are getting worse. And I thought you

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Speaker 1: made if I remember correctly, I thought you made a

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Speaker 1: pretty good case on school choice, which I'm uscled for.

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Speaker 1: And we sort of don't have that debate. We're not

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Speaker 1: having the debate. I know you've been a big champion

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Speaker 1: of manufacturing, and the Biden administration likes to talk about

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Speaker 1: all the manufacturing jobs that are coming back, when in fact,

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Speaker 1: very few manufacturing jobs have actually come back into the country.

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Speaker 1: If you look at the trend line over the last

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Speaker 1: ten years of manufacturing jobs, we're gaining maybe one hundred

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Speaker 1: two hundred thousand a year, not that many. For the

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Speaker 1: last ten years, the trends have been the same. The

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Speaker 1: Biden administration basically has seen some of the rebound jobs

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Speaker 1: from COVID comeback, but overall, the manufacturing sector has been

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Speaker 1: hurting for a long time, and the growth in manufacturing

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Speaker 1: has not been very substantial in the last two years

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Speaker 1: or in the last ten years.

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Speaker 2: You said something that we're not having the debate. I

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Speaker 2: think that that's the case in so many places. And

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Speaker 2: this seems like when you see people say the country's

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Speaker 2: so divided right now, we can't have a conversation. And

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Speaker 2: I don't know if this is the fact that you

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Speaker 2: have social media and you have so many loud voices

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Speaker 2: out there that just proclaim something and everybody takes that

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Speaker 2: as okay, that's where the party stands. But if you

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Speaker 2: look at what we're seeing with education, we can't have

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Speaker 2: the debate, and there are outside controlling factors that are

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Speaker 2: taking over the debate. You have the teachers' union, you

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Speaker 2: have the parents' groups. So those are the ones that

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Speaker 2: are clashing. But nobody's sitting down and saying, well, I mean,

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Speaker 2: come on, guys, is there something that we can actually

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Speaker 2: talk about here and say, okay, we're going to agree

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Speaker 2: that we can't accept a five percent reading proficiency rate.

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Speaker 2: This is robbing these kids of an education and future,

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Speaker 2: and it's filling our prisons. Those two facts are intertwined.

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Speaker 2: So let's say we have to have a solution here.

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Speaker 2: But if we're a Republican, we're on one side. If

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Speaker 2: we're a Democrat, we're on the other side, and we're

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Speaker 2: not coming together. I mean, we can talk about this

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Speaker 2: when it comes to the border, when it comes to abortion,

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Speaker 2: when it comes to all of these different discussions.

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Speaker 3: We don't.

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Speaker 2: We as humans live in the gray area. As politicians,

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Speaker 2: you live in the black and white area. It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean that's one of the reasons I liked

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Speaker 1: your candidacy because you spoke in terms like this, which

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Speaker 1: I think people relate to. I think you could take

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Speaker 1: you know, you could get ten Americans in a room,

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Speaker 1: any ten random Americans, and eight out of ten would

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Speaker 1: agree with what you just said. That we don't have

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Speaker 1: a serious discussion going on about education, and our public

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Speaker 1: school systems are going to hell, and you can just

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Speaker 1: see it in the performance standards, and it's getting worse

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Speaker 1: and worse all the time. Immigration has been a disaster

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Speaker 1: under this administration. There's I mean, you can be as

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Speaker 1: pro immigrant and as welcoming as you want, but the

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Speaker 1: idea that we can absorb seven million folks without sort

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Speaker 1: of any seven million migrants without any meaningful plan. Look

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Speaker 1: at the chaos in New York right now. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think your basic point is there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: issues out there. Education, I think is the best example,

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Speaker 1: but you know, retooling our economy so we're ready for

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Speaker 1: what they call the fourth Industrial Revolution is an issue

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Speaker 1: that no one talks about, and I don't think we're

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Speaker 1: well enough prepared for. And I think it hits the

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Speaker 1: middle class and the working class with huge numbers. But yes,

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Speaker 1: I think your general thesis that you were your question,

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Speaker 1: which is that we are becoming so ensconced in this

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Speaker 1: political scandalization and the payback one administration after the next,

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Speaker 1: we are not dealing with sort of these issues. And

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Speaker 1: I think social media, to your point, has also had

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Speaker 1: so many ill effects on our society. It is tearing

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Speaker 1: apart the fabric of our society and in our politics,

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Speaker 1: it is all it is doing is empowering the extremes

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Speaker 1: on the left and the right, so that though eight

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Speaker 1: and ten people that I think you speak to are

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Speaker 1: not having their voice heard in the every day in

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Speaker 1: our everyday politics, and it's so it's it's a shame

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Speaker 1: that politicization is crowding out the debate. Social media, which

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Speaker 1: empowers the extremists on the far left and on the

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Speaker 1: far right, is crowding out the debate, and everyday people

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Speaker 1: are not having their essential needs address.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on

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Speaker 2: the Tutor Dixon Podcast. I'll tell you something that I

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Speaker 2: thought was funny when I first started running for office,

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Speaker 2: because you have all these people that come in and

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Speaker 2: they're giving you advice, and they're all your consultants, you know,

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Speaker 2: And there are some people that are like, you got

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Speaker 2: to do you know, Whitmer's doing TikTok videos get out

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Speaker 2: there on social media. And I said, guys, I'm never

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Speaker 2: going to do that because it's just not who I

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Speaker 2: am and it would be very faked. And then someone

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Speaker 2: said to me, well, you can't do that anyway, you're

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Speaker 2: not running for congress. And I remember that striking so

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Speaker 2: hard because I thought, are you allowed.

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Speaker 3: To be a clown if you run for Congress?

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Speaker 2: Like when did running for Congress become really different than

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Speaker 2: running for any other office? Like you can just be

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Speaker 2: you're a celebrity if you're running for Congress. And I

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Speaker 2: think that that has become a part of the problem.

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Speaker 2: We got away from a sampling of people from all

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Speaker 2: different parts of the country, and you started to get

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Speaker 2: this group of actors. And I mean, we've heard people

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Speaker 2: call Washington, d C. The Hollywood for ugly people, but

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Speaker 2: really you have a lot of people playing a part.

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Speaker 2: And I would argue that even Joe Biden has played

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Speaker 2: a part for many years because he's never been a

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Speaker 2: working man. He's never actually he's never actually driven an

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Speaker 2: eighteen wheeler. You know, he's talking about the unions right now,

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Speaker 2: the UAW strike right now from a place of absolutely

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Speaker 2: no personal knowledge on it.

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Speaker 3: And I'm looking at our guys here.

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Speaker 2: You know, I supplied the automotive industry for years, and

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to the shops here and they're going, this

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Speaker 2: is devastating to us to have these auto workers out,

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Speaker 2: because every plant that's shut down means we shut down,

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Speaker 2: and then somebody in the next state shuts down, and

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Speaker 2: somebody in the next state shuts down, and all of

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Speaker 2: those folks that are making fifty to sixty thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: a year, they're not getting the five hundred dollars strike

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Speaker 2: rate every week they're off. They're getting nothing. And so

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Speaker 2: these guys that are all playing the part, they're not

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Speaker 2: actually they have no idea of what the background is

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Speaker 2: of what's actually happening in the country.

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Speaker 1: I think that's right. I mean, I think one, I'm

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Speaker 1: glad that you say things, and I wish more candidates

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Speaker 1: and politicians would say that, I am going to stay

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Speaker 1: true to my authentic self, and I think very very

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Speaker 1: few people do that. I mean, Christen Cinema is another person,

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Speaker 1: an Arizona senator, who has just said, I don't believe

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Speaker 1: in the orthodoxies of the left or the right. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be an independent voice and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: call it as I see it, and I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to be sort of dictated to by the you know,

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Speaker 1: by the sort of the chieftains of the party as

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Speaker 1: to what I have to think or what the orthodoxy

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Speaker 1: should be. And I love that. I like that about you.

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Speaker 1: I love that about Kristen Cinema, and I like that.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's good. I think your second point

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Speaker 1: about these politicians playing the clown game to get elected

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Speaker 1: into office, I mean, I think that is the world

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Speaker 1: that we are living in on social media, which is

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Speaker 1: you are playing to a very small and vocal extreme minority.

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Speaker 1: You know, Progressives, for example, in this country represent probably

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Speaker 1: five or six percent of the voters. But the Democratic

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Speaker 1: Party is sort of you know, genuflecting and cow taling

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Speaker 1: to a lot of the presisive activists because they are

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Speaker 1: so disproportionately active on social media and they will try

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Speaker 1: to cancel and berate people that depart from the orthodoxies.

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Speaker 1: And this is part of the thing that I think

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Speaker 1: is is destroying our country. And I also agree with

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Speaker 1: you on the multiplier effect the strike and the all

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Speaker 1: of the surrounding communities and sort of the need to

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Speaker 1: you know, hopefully see some resolution on that soon. So

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Wonder what it is with you. Well, I wonder if

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Speaker 2: these conversations where you have folks coming out. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that was really Gretchen whitmer Ran on the unions. I

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Speaker 2: support the unions, you know, I support the Teachers' Union.

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Speaker 2: Of course, she was getting millions, so of course she's

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Speaker 2: supporting them. They're supporting her.

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Speaker 3: It's a team. They're a team.

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Speaker 2: And she's coming out and saying that like they can

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Speaker 2: do no wrong. And I'm not saying that she should

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Speaker 2: do something different, but I'm saying there is a conversation

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Speaker 2: to be had. This is something independent from politics. And

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Speaker 2: so when you empower people like that, just like politicians,

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Speaker 2: sometimes those people take it too far. And you've got

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Speaker 2: Randy Weingart and going over to Ukraine, and we're like,

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Speaker 2: why is the teachers union leader going over to Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: you know, holding the flag upside down? But whatever, you know,

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Speaker 2: she's over there talking to these people, and she's now

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Speaker 2: so important. But I have to say that she also,

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Speaker 2: Gretchen Whitmer immediately came in and said we're going to

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Speaker 2: get rid of right to work in the state of Michigan,

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Speaker 2: which was pretty devastating to a lot of our employers.

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Speaker 2: And I think that you are not really reading the

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Speaker 2: tea leaves. I mean, you see, we just saw Ford

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Speaker 2: put eleven billion dollars into Tennessee and Kentucky. Ford is

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Speaker 2: Ford is Michigan. You know, you look at these auto companies,

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Speaker 2: this is what Michigan was built on.

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Speaker 3: We built wheels.

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Speaker 2: I mean that we put the country on wheels, and

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Speaker 2: they were looking at other states because it's a heck

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Speaker 2: of a lot easier to pay for energy in Tennessee,

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Speaker 2: where they make sure that they keep their energy costs low.

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Speaker 3: And where they don't have unions.

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Speaker 2: Let's just be honest, it's easier to not fight with

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Speaker 2: your union bosses every day. And then she gets rid

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Speaker 2: of right to work and lo and behold a few

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Speaker 2: months later a historic strike where they strike against all

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Speaker 2: three auto makers. I mean, and now she's just gone.

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Speaker 2: She took her millions, she's run, she's not running again.

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Speaker 2: Why are we having politicians dabble in the private sector

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Speaker 2: and then get out when it's uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: Well, I take your point, and I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: I wish more politicians would spend more time in the

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Speaker 1: private sector. I think they would learn a lot more

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Speaker 1: about how businesses work, and particularly the press of small

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Speaker 1: businesses trying to make ends meet. Before you know, they

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Speaker 1: make a lot of policy changes, whether it's raising taxes

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Speaker 1: or or or you name it. I think as to

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Speaker 1: the right to work, you know, I think there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of sort of blue state governors that are

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Speaker 1: starting to rethink, you know, the loss of jobs and

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Speaker 1: the right to work states. And I think that's sort

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Speaker 1: of something that a lot of people are giving some

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Speaker 1: some more thought to. You sort of, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, have to look at the data, and

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Speaker 1: and I think, you know, I think there's some examination

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Speaker 1: of that right now. I would also separate the teachers'

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Speaker 1: unions out from sor some of the other unions. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think at some point the teacher unions are going

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Speaker 1: to have to say, there's accountability. You know, we have

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Speaker 1: to accept some accountability. If the criticism is that you

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Speaker 1: allow too much incompetence into the system, it can borrow in.

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Speaker 1: You can't fire bad teachers, and that is showing up

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Speaker 1: in poor test scores in math and English across the board,

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Speaker 1: particularly for black and brown students. At some point, the teachers'

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Speaker 1: unions are going to have to say we take responsibility.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if they were if Randy Weingarten were in

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Speaker 1: another profession, if you were the CEO of say Ford

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Speaker 1: and Ford were performing just to circle back, and Ford

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Speaker 1: was performing as poorly as the public schools are performing

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Speaker 1: in terms of results, I mean, she would be fired

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Speaker 1: in the blink of an eye. And I just think

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Speaker 1: this is an issue. A school choice is an issue

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Speaker 1: that is growing in popularity. You saw what happened in

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania with the governor, Governor Shapiro, who was for it,

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Speaker 1: and then he got muscled by the unions and sort

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Speaker 1: of backed down, and they found this sort of middle

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Speaker 1: ground position, which I don't think is a real middle

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Speaker 1: ground position, But that is an issue that is changing.

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Speaker 1: It's changing in favor of school choice, and at some

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Speaker 1: point the unions, I think are the teachers' unions, You're

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Speaker 1: going to have to face the music on this issue.

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Speaker 1: Their performance has just been abysmal and unacceptable. And I

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Speaker 1: think voters, including Democratic voters in significant numbers, are seeing

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Speaker 1: that now. And imagine that's the case in Michigan in

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Speaker 1: part because of your campaign last year. But I think

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Speaker 1: they're seeing it, and I think, you know, change is

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Speaker 1: within the next decade on that.

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Speaker 2: That's something that we struggled to get across to people,

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Speaker 2: but you know, we tried really hard. And that was

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Speaker 2: one of the examples I would use. Look, if I

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Speaker 2: had a production line that was making five percent good

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Speaker 2: product and everything else had to be scrapped and I

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Speaker 2: had to remelt it and report it and I only

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Speaker 2: got ever five percent good product, I wouldn't be in business.

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Speaker 3: So how do we allow the schools?

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Speaker 2: How do we allow our taxpayer dollars to go toward

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Speaker 2: ruining these children's lives, and let's be honest. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we can't mince words here. You have robbed them of

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Speaker 2: an education. They will not have a future because of this,

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Speaker 2: and it absolutely is disproportionately black and brown children.

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Speaker 3: But if I if I.

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Speaker 2: Fight for that, I don't necessarily have a lot of

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Speaker 2: support from certain Republicans. You've got Democrats who will never

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Speaker 2: say it. And again, I don't believe it's because these people,

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Speaker 2: regardless of what side they're on, don't want these kids

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Speaker 2: to have a good education. No way, That's not what

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Speaker 2: it is. We have become so politically divided that you

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Speaker 2: are afraid to come out and have a strong stance

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Speaker 2: on anything. And if you are afraid to have a

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Speaker 2: backbone on certain issues like good child's education, then maybe

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Speaker 2: you're not the right person to be in office.

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Speaker 3: But what have we done to politicians to make.

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Speaker 2: It controversial to talk about every kid succeeding?

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Speaker 3: I think it's outrageous.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, look at where we are right now

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Speaker 2: with Joe Biden. I think that there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of Democrats who watch his performance on a daily basis

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Speaker 2: and they go, man, this is a problem. I mean,

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Speaker 2: the man is aging before our eyes. But he is

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Speaker 2: an older person. He's clearly suffering. He's had a lot

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Speaker 2: of gaps. He's said a lot of weird things, whether

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Speaker 2: it's aging or not. He keeps making up these stories

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Speaker 2: about his personal background that simply aren't true. Democrats have

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Speaker 2: to be in fear of how he performs in twenty four.

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Speaker 1: So you said a lot of things there, which I

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Speaker 1: think I agree with a lot of them. First, with

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Speaker 1: respect to the teachers' unions, they are extremely powerful. They

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Speaker 1: are a huge union. They organize voters on election day,

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Speaker 1: they have huge war tests, and I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of Democratic politicians and just think it's not worth having

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Speaker 1: a public fight with them, even though the performance is

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Speaker 1: so poor in the public schools and they are losing

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Speaker 1: support all of the time from voters. I think. Secondly,

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Speaker 1: your point is which I again agree with, and I'll

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Speaker 1: tie it back to the Biden question, is we are

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Speaker 1: living in an age of intimidation because of social media,

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Speaker 1: where the loud, extreme voices intimidate the common sense center,

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Speaker 1: the eighty percent of us who want common sense solutions

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Speaker 1: to everyday problems like education that you speak about. And

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Speaker 1: this is a terrible thing, and I don't know what

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Speaker 1: the answer is to it, but it is really ripping

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Speaker 1: apart our social fabric and our political fabric. I agree

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Speaker 1: with you on that. On a good example of that,

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Speaker 1: which you tied it to, and I would tie it to,

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Speaker 1: is the Biden question. I wrote a piece for The

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal in March of this year saying that

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Speaker 1: Biden should not run that the primary reason is because

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Speaker 1: I think, with all due respect to him and his career,

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Speaker 1: he's not mentally competent to be president. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: watch him in any any extemporaneous interchange between him and

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Speaker 1: a reporter, and he inevitably gets facts wrong, or he

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Speaker 1: stumbles his way through a question, and it's embarrassing. And

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Speaker 1: that is not the kind of mental competency you expect

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Speaker 1: for the most powerful man in the world, the commander

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Speaker 1: in chief of our country. And it's it's plainly obvious

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Speaker 1: to everybody, including Democratic voters, two thirds of whom don't

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Speaker 1: want him to run for reelection. So when I wrote

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Speaker 1: that piece in March, I had dinner that night with

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Speaker 1: a lot of political strategists, some of them Democrat, and

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Speaker 1: all of them said to me, I completely agree with you,

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Speaker 1: And I said to them, don't you say anything about them.

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Speaker 1: Why don't you say so publicly? Oh, no, I can't

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Speaker 1: do that. I'd get squashed. And I'm sure I got,

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Speaker 1: you know, exed off for the White House Christmas Party

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Speaker 1: list for writing that piece. And then in the course

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Speaker 1: of the next week or two, I had different events.

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Speaker 1: I hosted a couple of events at which Democratic elected

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Speaker 1: officials were there, and to a t all of them

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Speaker 1: said to me, I completely agree with what you said.

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Speaker 1: Completely agree with what you said. And I said, we

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Speaker 1: why don't you say that. We can't come out and

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Speaker 1: say that, can't cross the president. It would just be

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Speaker 1: bad for the party, it would be divisive. And so

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Speaker 1: there is we are living in this situation. And I

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Speaker 1: think that the teachers the teachers' unions is one good example.

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Speaker 1: And I think also this question about whether Biden should

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Speaker 1: run is another example where people don't say what they

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Speaker 1: really think and they'ren't scared and they're intimidated. You know.

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Speaker 1: Cato did a survey a couple of years ago which

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Speaker 1: which found that somewhere between sixteen and seventy percent of

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Speaker 1: them Americans were scared to say what they really think

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Speaker 1: about everyday political issues for fear of the reaction that

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Speaker 1: they would get, the sort of the outrage, the sanctimony

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Speaker 1: of the extremes on the other side who would disagree

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Speaker 1: with them, the contempt, the politics of contempt, which Arthur

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Speaker 1: Brooks has written at AEI has written about very very beautifully.

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Speaker 1: So we're in agreement that most I think Americans reside

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Speaker 1: in the common sense center and want to hear common

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Speaker 1: sense solutions and are being drowned out by the extremes,

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Speaker 1: in large part because of social media and sort of

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Speaker 1: the dysfunction that has become our politics.

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Speaker 2: When you see these indictments, I mean, currently we're looking

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Speaker 2: at this impeachment hearing in DC, but we've got for

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Speaker 2: indictments against the former president. Oddly enough, those are the

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Speaker 2: two people running for president again that seemed.

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Speaker 3: To be in the lead.

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Speaker 2: What do you think that the country sees when they

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Speaker 2: see these indictments? Do are there any folks on the

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Speaker 2: Democrat side. I think a lot of Republicans feel like

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Speaker 2: this is in many cases, in many of these indictments,

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Speaker 2: these are outrageous. But do you think that there are

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Speaker 2: Democrats who are also saying, I don't know, maybe this

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Speaker 2: is going a little too far. Because I've had people

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Speaker 2: on our side say, who's ever going to run for

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Speaker 2: president again?

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Speaker 3: Who wants this?

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Speaker 2: And I got to tell you it makes you nervous,

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Speaker 2: you know, I wrote.

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Speaker 1: I also wrote a piece about a month after the

435
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,199
Speaker 1: Biden shouldn't run piece. I also wrote another piece for

436
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal saying that, you know, Republicans overreached

437
00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: on the Clinton impeachment in ninety eight, and I lived

438
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: through that up close and personal and sort of warning

439
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: the Democrats should not overreach as well, and that they

440
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: were dangerously close to that. So on the Trump indictments,

441
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I didn't vote for Trump. I don't

442
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: like what Trump did on January sixth. I don't like

443
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,800
Speaker 1: the whole document. It's the taking of the documents after

444
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: the classified documents, after we left office. I'm critical of

445
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: those things that said, you know, with respect to January sixth,

446
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to ask the question, why is

447
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,920
Speaker 1: it taking the Justice Department over three years to bring

448
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,520
Speaker 1: the case. By the time the actual case occurs, I

449
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: mean they knew about I mean sort of the facts

450
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: were on the table. They did not have to wait

451
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: for a congressional investigation. Sort Of a lot of the

452
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: facts that they know were on the table or were ascertainable,

453
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,879
Speaker 1: I would say within twelve months. Why is it that

454
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: they're waiting three years to bring the case in the

455
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: middle of an election against the major party candidate. I mean,

456
00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: that just looks bad. Regardless of what the merits are

457
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: or may not be of the case, that just looks bad.

458
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:49,880
Speaker 1: And I think Democrats have not given a very good

459
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: answer to that. The brag prosecution in New York I've

460
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 1: also written about that's a disastrous prosecution. That case should

461
00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 1: have never been brought with, never brought against anyone else.

462
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: If the last name had not been Trump, and you

463
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 1: know what.

464
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:08,719
Speaker 2: We think, if he had not run again, would it

465
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: have been brought Yeah.

466
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: I think so, because I think it's bloodsport for a

467
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: lot of the lefties in our party. Yeah. I think

468
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: they just have such a visceral dislike for him. I

469
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: also think there's a codependency between Trump and the left

470
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: and mainstream media. I mean Trump needs Trump needs the

471
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 1: mainstream media and the left to beat up on him.

472
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: It's part of his brand, It's part of what generates

473
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 1: support in his base. Can you imagine what the ratings

474
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: for CNN would have been in the last four years,

475
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: if they had not had Trump to further to be

476
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: every time breaking news. You know, the end is near.

477
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: He is about to be frog marched, you know, if

478
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: they didn't have that on a sort of hourly basis

479
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:51,080
Speaker 1: and a repetition loop, where the ratings would have been

480
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: or where so many of our democratic what so many

481
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 1: of our democratic politicians would have been talking about if

482
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:03,960
Speaker 1: it weren't you know, Trump's latest you know, alleged breach,

483
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,400
Speaker 1: they might have to be talking about school choice or

484
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: education or other things that are important. So there is

485
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: this weird codependency that goes on between Trump and the

486
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: left and the mainstream media.

487
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on

488
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 2: the Tutor Dixon podcast. And as you've mentioned, they can

489
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: use Trump against other candidates. I mean, you hear them

490
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 2: talking about the MAGA extremists and you can get lumped

491
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: into that category and then that's like a stain that

492
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 2: they can use against you, right, And.

493
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: You know, look, I would love to see nothing more

494
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 1: than to see the Democratic Party, particular Democratic Party of old,

495
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: the Clinton Democratic Party, which was a very centrist, mainstream

496
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 1: you know, moderate culturally, moderate, economically, sort of pro business

497
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,360
Speaker 1: Democratic party that's sort of the Democratic Party I grew

498
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: up in, and I believe them. But you know, you

499
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: don't hear the Democrats talking too much about bid nomics.

500
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: They like to. But you know, as sort of all

501
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: the numbers showed, you know, the average person has lost

502
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: money under the Biden administration, and mean wages have not

503
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: kept up with inflation. We've had seventy percent inflation. Wages

504
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: have just started really going up in a meaningful way,

505
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,520
Speaker 1: but the inflation has clearly outstripped them, and so the

506
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 1: average family is losing six seven thousand dollars a year

507
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: as a result of the policies in the last three years.

508
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: But you know, you don't hear a great deal of

509
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 1: depth of debate on that issue because we're it's Trump

510
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 1: all of the time. It's Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.

511
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: You know, prosecution, prosecution, this, you know this, this transgression,

512
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 1: that transgression, So you don't you know it, like the

513
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: social media problem that we were discussing, the Trump Trump

514
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: has sort of eclipsed everything else in our politics, so

515
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 1: we're not talking about what everyday Americans want to talk

516
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,720
Speaker 1: about and sort of comment send. So so I think

517
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: back to the prosecution in New York. I think that

518
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: prosecution was a disaster. It is a disaster. The notion

519
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: that you would prosecute hush money as a campaign contribution,

520
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: It's just not if you read the statute and if

521
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 1: you see how the FEC Federal Elections Commission has interpreted

522
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: what is and is not a campaign contribution. Spending money

523
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 1: on something like hush money, funds on something like hush money,

524
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: or a whole slew of other expenditures is not considered

525
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 1: a campaign contribution, and to try to criminalize it is just,

526
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's just ridiculous overreach. I think it

527
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: is a it is a travesty of a prosecution. And

528
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: some Democrats have pointed them that out, but not enough

529
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: have And you know, so I think that that is

530
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: that's another concern about the prosecution. If you look at Georgia.

531
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: You know, in Ruth Marcus made this point in the

532
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: Washington Post, and she was one of the very very

533
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 1: few people on the left to make the point. You know,

534
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: that may be a case of overkill as well, essentially

535
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: the same conduct as being tried by the Feds by

536
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: Jack Smith on the January sixth batter. You know, it's

537
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: not that it's necessarily a constitutional bar. It's not a

538
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 1: double jeopardy issue for the state to try the same

539
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 1: set of facts. But in many instances you would see

540
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: the state, you know, defer or elect not to prosecute

541
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: if the Feds are sort of prosecuting that set of facts.

542
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: And I think sort of the rico is just you know,

543
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be a lot harder case

544
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: than a lot of people think it is to prove.

545
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 2: What about these cases against the electors, the people that

546
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: came out and had the alternative slate? What about those

547
00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 2: cases we have that in Michigan. That is also a

548
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: situation in Georgia. And I think that that has really

549
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: scared the grassroots of the party because they go, gosh,

550
00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: these people were they were created, as you know, voted

551
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 2: in as electors. They had this political maneuver that if

552
00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 2: the courts went a certain way, their slate would be accepted.

553
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 2: But I mean, we've got people that are in their

554
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 2: eighties that are facing you know, decades in jail because

555
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: of this. And folks on one side are saying this

556
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 2: is not really illegal. They didn't they didn't break the law.

557
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: The other side is saying, we're going to get them.

558
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: We're going to put them in jail.

559
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I that's one of the reasons I think it

560
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: is going to be a more difficult prosecution than a

561
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: lot of people think. Basically, the alternate elector scheme is

562
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: based on a what I think is an extreme, maybe

563
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 1: a fringe reading of the twelfth Amendment, which is that

564
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: the vice president can tabulate the counter votes. There were

565
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,320
Speaker 1: disputed elections in the nineteenth century, so the past of

566
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: the Electoral Count Act, the Electoral Count Act is hopelessly confused.

567
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: It is impossible to really go through, even as a

568
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: skilled attorney. It is impossible to go through and sort

569
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: of understand exactly what that means in various different scenarios. So,

570
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, John Eastman's point of view on that is

571
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: that what governs is as an originalist, what governs is

572
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: the twelfth Amendment, and the twelfth Amendment gives the vice

573
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: president the sort of the sole discretion in counting the

574
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: votes and counting which votes are legitimate and which votes

575
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: are illegitimate. I disagree with that reading. I think that's wrong.

576
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: I think that's a fringe point of view, But it

577
00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,360
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it's criminal to believe that and sort

578
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: of the alternate elector's scheme flowed from that reading. So

579
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: I think they're going to run up on some chat

580
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: challenging arguments as to whether that conduct is protected by

581
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 1: the First Amendment. You know. I think that's sort of

582
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 1: the one question in the Georgia case. I think the

583
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: second question in the Georgia case is when Trump called

584
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: Rosenberger and said, I just need to find eleven seven

585
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty votes, did that mean necessarily that he

586
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 1: was asking Rasenberger to falsify election returns? And I'm not

587
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: sure you can make that leap. I mean, that's the

588
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: Georgia Statute, the Georgia Statute. I'm simplifying things here. There

589
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 1: are some complications and some nuances, but essentially the Florida statue,

590
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: the Georgia Statute requires that you solicit a state official

591
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,959
Speaker 1: to falsify election returns. And Trump simply saying I just

592
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 1: need to find eleven thousand, seven hundred and eighty votes

593
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 1: does not necessarily mean he's asking him to false by

594
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: the votes. It could mean I really believe there's one

595
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: hundred thousand false votes in Georgia, just one trying to

596
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: find ten percent of them and I need you to

597
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: dig a little deeper. So I think there's I think

598
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: there's you know, there's room for Trump defense on both

599
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: of those issues.

600
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: So I think that's why we're seeing a lot of

601
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,800
Speaker 2: division right now. I think that's why we see I

602
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: think I mean in Michigan, I see a lot of

603
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: fear in the grassroots and they don't know how aggressive

604
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 2: they want to be out there with their opinions.

605
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:28,160
Speaker 1: Now.

606
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 2: I think there are some who will still continue to

607
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 2: go out there and fight as hard as they can.

608
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 2: But you see people that are kind of backing off

609
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: of politics altogether. I think that's bad for both parties

610
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: because people don't want to vote, they don't want to

611
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 2: get involved, they don't want to be out there knocking doors.

612
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 2: People are afraid to knock doors. They're like, gosh, you know,

613
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: we had a woman knocking doors last year. She's eighty

614
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: years old, I think, and ended up getting shot in

615
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 2: the back by another older lady who was just mad.

616
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: You know, this is we've become a society that is

617
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: afraid to talk about that gray area.

618
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 3: Like I said, said, we.

619
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: Are so conditioned now to be in the black or

620
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 2: white that when someone comes in and says, well, let's

621
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: have a discussion. You just don't know how that's going

622
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 2: to go. There's so much more that I want. I'm

623
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: gonna have to have you back because I wanted to

624
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 2: get into the documents and all of that. And I

625
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: know we've run over time, but I am so I

626
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,959
Speaker 2: really have enjoyed having you here at Julian. It's been

627
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 2: a great conversation and I really would like to have

628
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: you back.

629
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,720
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'd love to come back. And again, I'm delighted

630
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 1: to finally meet you. As I said, I watched you

631
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,800
Speaker 1: a lot on the campaign trail last year and I

632
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: was very impressed.

633
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, and it was fascinating getting to hear

634
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 2: your stories and your history from the Clinton administration to today.

635
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,360
Speaker 2: I want to get into it more, so we'll definitely

636
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 2: do it again. Thank you, Thank you for being here

637
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 2: and think sounds good, and thank you all for being

638
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: here with us on the Tutor Dixon Podcast. For this

639
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: episode and others, go to Tutor.

640
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: Disonpodcast dot com.

641
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 2: You can subscribe right there, or head over to the

642
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast

643
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 2: and join us next time on the Tutor Dixon podcast,

644
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: have a blessed day,