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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all, welcome back to I Have some Thoughts, our

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Speaker 1: weekly mini sold series where we are covering all things

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Speaker 1: pop culture, but of course from a mental health lens.

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Speaker 1: And I am joined today again by Elise.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Alise, Hey, doctor Joey. How are you.

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Speaker 1: I'm good? How are you?

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. I am super excited because the Black

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Speaker 2: Panther casting was announced this week for Black Panther three,

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Speaker 2: and although the movie is coming out in twenty twenty eight,

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Speaker 2: I'm just I'm a static. Yes, agreed, agreed.

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Speaker 1: I have been very excited. I didn't know that they

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Speaker 1: were necessarily planning on continuing the Black Panther story, but

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Speaker 1: I'm very excited that this is the way we're going.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is the best way forward right

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Speaker 1: like that still honors who Chadwick was for the carecter,

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Speaker 1: but also continuing to move the storyline forward exactly.

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Speaker 2: I also love David Johnson. He was one of the

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Speaker 2: main characters in the first season and second season of Industry,

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Speaker 2: which is one of my favorite TV shows. He also

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Speaker 2: was in the rom com Ryan Lane and was fabulous

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Speaker 2: in that, so it's very different to see him in

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Speaker 2: this action movie. A part of this huge franchise, but

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Speaker 2: I do think the casting is.

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Speaker 1: Excellent, so I'm very excited about that me too, agreed.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so let's get into our first topic today. Recent

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Speaker 2: legal disputes involving the estates of Chadwick Boseman and Malcolm

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Speaker 2: Jamal Warner have put a spotlight on the complicated realities

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Speaker 2: families can face after the loss of a loved one.

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Speaker 2: Last week, Malcolm Jamal Warner's widow filed a lawsuit against

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Speaker 2: his mother, claiming she hadn't been paid the one point

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Speaker 2: two million oh to her as part of the pre

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Speaker 2: nups she signed. A few days after, Chadwick Boseman's brother

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Speaker 2: filed to suit Chadwick's widow, claiming that she failed to

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Speaker 2: properly distribute Chatwick's remaining assets. In Chadwick's case, specifically, he

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Speaker 2: didn't have a will in place at the time of

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Speaker 2: his passing. While the cases involve different legal circumstances, they've

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Speaker 2: definitely sparked a broader conversation about how grief can become

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Speaker 2: intertwined with conflict over money, decision making, and how to

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Speaker 2: honor a loved one's memory. And I've been thinking about

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Speaker 2: how can having difficult conversations now become one final act

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Speaker 2: of love for the people we care about, And I

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Speaker 2: know we actually have an episode about this, So session

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Speaker 2: three ninety three is about estate planning and about what

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Speaker 2: to do with your assets and how to plan for

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Speaker 2: the future when you are gone. But my question for you,

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Speaker 2: doctor Joy is what emotional barriers can keep families from

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Speaker 2: planning for a crisis with wills, with the state planning,

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Speaker 2: or with end of life wishes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I'm glad you brought up that session

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Speaker 1: because that's definitely what I thought about the conversation I

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Speaker 1: had with Attorney Griffin, just about all of the ways

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Speaker 1: that sometimes we are negligent in making sure that we

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Speaker 1: are preparing ourselves to lead this place right, in preparing

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Speaker 1: our families. And I do think it is one last

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Speaker 1: act of love to kind of make sure that your

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Speaker 1: affairs are in order. But as we talked about in

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Speaker 1: that episode, it can be really difficult for lots of

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Speaker 1: different reasons. I think the main one, though, is that

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Speaker 1: we just don't do well with these kinds of conversations,

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Speaker 1: right like death, end of life kinds of things. Nobody

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Speaker 1: wants to talk about that, and of course it's very difficult.

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Speaker 1: You know, you don't want to even think about what

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Speaker 1: happens to your kids and your loved ones after you're gone.

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Speaker 1: But it is a natural part of life, right, Like

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Speaker 1: that is one thing we can all be certain of,

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Speaker 1: is that we will leave at some point. And I

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Speaker 1: think it is just so difficult to have these conversations

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Speaker 1: that it often feels much easier to just avoid it

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Speaker 1: and not think about because of course you won't be there,

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Speaker 1: right And so I think we don't always think about

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Speaker 1: like the consequences like we're seeing in these cases that

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Speaker 1: can happen if things are not in order. I also

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Speaker 1: think that just historically, finances and estates and all of

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Speaker 1: those things are really difficult to talk about with families.

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Speaker 1: It often introduces different kinds of power dynamics. Do you

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Speaker 1: get into comparison kinds of things. You know, there may

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Speaker 1: even be some paranoia involved in, you know, like kind

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Speaker 1: of disclosing maybe how much you have. And so I

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Speaker 1: think that there are those kinds of things that make

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Speaker 1: these kinds of conversations difficult as well, But it is necessary.

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Speaker 1: It is a necessary part of kind of family planning

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Speaker 1: and thinking about what happens in life for your loved

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Speaker 1: ones after you're no longer here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for that. I think something you said that

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Speaker 2: really resonated with me is that, like it is easier

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Speaker 2: to just avoid talking about it, Like it is weird,

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Speaker 2: whether you're talking to your parents and saying like, hey,

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Speaker 2: you guys aren't going to be here one day, or

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Speaker 2: you're talking about yourself, like I'm not going to be

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Speaker 2: here one day. What are the words that you maybe

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Speaker 2: have told yourself, your family members, your kids about that

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Speaker 2: that doesn't fearmonger them but helps them accept that this

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Speaker 2: is the natural part of life.

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Speaker 1: I am guilty of this myself, right, Like my husband

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Speaker 1: and I have been dragging our feet in doing this,

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Speaker 1: but it is on like the top of I to

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Speaker 1: do this, Like I already have the lawyer picked out

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Speaker 1: and everything because it is important, right, But it feels

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Speaker 1: so uncomfortable to think about, like my baby's being here

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Speaker 1: without me, right, and like what is that duje to them?

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Speaker 1: Like it you do get, at least for myself, Like

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Speaker 1: I get caught in the sadness and the trauma of

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Speaker 1: it all right, like just thinking about it, but also

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Speaker 1: wanting them to be okay. And there are things that

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Speaker 1: I want them to have for their lives, regardless of

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Speaker 1: whether I'm here or not. And I know that that

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Speaker 1: is an important part of those things happening. And also

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Speaker 1: I think when we do see public cases like this,

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Speaker 1: it also is a very sobering reminder to us that

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Speaker 1: are still here that hey, this is an unfortunate kind

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Speaker 1: of thing that can happen if the proper paperwork is

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Speaker 1: not put into place right now. Unfortunately, sometimes we see

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Speaker 1: even when there is a will, there can be contesting,

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Speaker 1: and you know, like there is also still family fallout sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but I think you are you put yourself and your

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Speaker 1: family in a far better place to be able to

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Speaker 1: kind of navigate those difficult kinds of things when you

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Speaker 1: do have things put in please. And I think we

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Speaker 1: see some of this fallout after somebody has passed because

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Speaker 1: it is a grief reaction, right, so you can maybe

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Speaker 1: it feels less comfortable to say, like I'm angry at

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Speaker 1: this person for passing, but instead I'm going to like

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Speaker 1: act out with my brother and fight over family assets

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Speaker 1: because that feels more comfortable, even if it is still

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Speaker 1: like a difficult situation. Sometimes those kinds of things are

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Speaker 1: easier to express then I feel really sad and heartbroken

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Speaker 1: that mom or dad is gone.

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Speaker 2: Okay, moving right along. Last week, ESPN analyst Ryan Clark

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Speaker 2: was abruptly let go during a commercial break after twelve

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Speaker 2: years at ESPN. He spoke out about the situation on

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Speaker 2: an episode of the Pivot podcast and became really emotional

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Speaker 2: as he shared the pressure he felt to tone himself

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Speaker 2: down to match what media executives wanted from him. Clark

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Speaker 2: shared that he knew he couldn't be too black. Despite

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Speaker 2: trying to adjust, he was still fired, and he often

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Speaker 2: wondered whether things would have turned out differently had he

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Speaker 2: made himself more palatable. Now many don't agree that is

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Speaker 2: why he was let go, but it does open a

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Speaker 2: broader conversation on navigating corporate spaces while black and showing

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Speaker 2: up authentically at work. Talk to me about how code

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Speaker 2: switching and this self monitoring can maybe have a toll

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Speaker 2: on someone over time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean work is difficult just because it's work,

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Speaker 1: right Like, even if you love what you do, it's work,

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Speaker 1: right like. It is a sometimes grueling part of our

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Speaker 1: lived experience. And so I think when you lay on

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Speaker 1: top of that, this pressure to code switch and like

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Speaker 1: to feel like you need to adjust in morph who

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Speaker 1: you are to fit into this place where you spend

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Speaker 1: so many hours. It is taxing, I think, both physically

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Speaker 1: and mentally. And I think people who are not people

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Speaker 1: of color, black people specifically don't always understand like the

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Speaker 1: additional burden that it is to not just come to work,

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Speaker 1: but to also feel like you have to put on

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Speaker 1: a certain mask or armor to just be in these spaces.

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Speaker 1: And I think you know, unfortunately, what we see from

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Speaker 1: this very public example is that you can do all

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Speaker 1: of the contorting and code switching and you know, managing

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Speaker 1: and massaging your image and your words, and it's still

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Speaker 1: not be enough. Right it just does not matter. And

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Speaker 1: if you find yourself in spaces where you are feeling

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Speaker 1: that pressure, the sad truth is that it does not

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Speaker 1: matter sometimes, right like, people will have their view and

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Speaker 1: their perspective of who you are and no amount of

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Speaker 1: you contorting yourself will matter because they've already developed the

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Speaker 1: story they want to tell about who you are. And

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Speaker 1: so I think it is a reminder for us that

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Speaker 1: sometimes we can do all of that stuff and it

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Speaker 1: not be enough. And so again I understand, we got

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Speaker 1: to keep the lights on, like we have responsibilities, and

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Speaker 1: so unfortunately we will sometimes find ourselves in corporate spaces

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Speaker 1: where we have to do some of this kind of

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Speaker 1: playing the game. But I think it's important to know

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Speaker 1: that it is like a role that you're playing and

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Speaker 1: not let that become like your identity and not do

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Speaker 1: so much kind of playing the game and contorting yourself

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Speaker 1: that you don't even recognize who you are outside of

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Speaker 1: the office.

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Speaker 2: How does someone begin to, I don't want to say,

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Speaker 2: like draw harder boundaries, but start to take so much

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Speaker 2: kind of personal stake out of the person who they

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Speaker 2: are when they show up at work, even if it

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Speaker 2: is the work they enjoy. Because I could go to

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Speaker 2: happy hour after work, you can be a part of

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Speaker 2: an erg, you can you know, do fun volunteer things

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Speaker 2: on the weekend, but still feel like I am performing

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Speaker 2: this self and not being me. How does one start

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Speaker 2: to kind of draw those lines and make that separation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm really glad that you asked that, because

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Speaker 1: I think all of the things that you've named are

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Speaker 1: really important, right, Like making sure that your life feels

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Speaker 1: full outside of the office is one way to kind

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Speaker 1: of add a barrier there, or add a bit of

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Speaker 1: a buffer too. Okay, I got to go do these things,

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Speaker 1: but these are the things that actually make my life right,

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Speaker 1: Like my life is not entirely made up of work.

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Speaker 1: These are the things that really helped me to feel

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Speaker 1: restored and fulfilled. So I do think that that is

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Speaker 1: an important piece of this, is making sure that your

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Speaker 1: life outside of the workspace feels very fulfilling. But I

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Speaker 1: also think you have to think about, like what kinds

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Speaker 1: of things feel okay for you to kind of maybe

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Speaker 1: bend on, and what kinds of things do not right,

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Speaker 1: Because at the end of the day, you have to

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Speaker 1: go home with yourself and to yourself, and so there

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Speaker 1: are some things that may just feel like completely not

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Speaker 1: non negotiable to you, right, So you know when you

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Speaker 1: are calling in to question your integrity, your values, like

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Speaker 1: the kinds of things that are really important to you,

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Speaker 1: those things I think are not things that you want

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Speaker 1: to kind of put a performance on.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: But if it is like, oh, I'm somebody who's really

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Speaker 1: private and I don't really want a social life in

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Speaker 1: the break room during lunch, right, could you do a

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Speaker 1: little bending there? Right? Because we know a lot of

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Speaker 1: times black people will get this comment on their performance.

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Speaker 1: Reports that they seem aloof or they're not a real

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Speaker 1: team player, right, And so sometimes you can get around

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Speaker 1: some of that by just offering up things that aren't

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Speaker 1: really important to you, right. So I will typically tell

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Speaker 1: people to have one or two kinds of things that

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Speaker 1: you talk about with people at work that really don't

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Speaker 1: matter to you, right. So maybe that is like the

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Speaker 1: kinds of TV shows that you're watching, or the sports

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Speaker 1: that you're involved in, or the sports that your kids play,

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Speaker 1: or you know, like things that feel important can connect

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Speaker 1: you to other people, but they are not like central

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Speaker 1: to who you are. So sometimes volunteering those kinds of things,

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Speaker 1: you know, can make it seem like you're more of

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Speaker 1: a team player than Maybe you're still not sharing anything

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Speaker 1: really private about you, but you are kind of playing

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Speaker 1: the game. And so looking at those kinds of things

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Speaker 1: that aren't really central to your identity as places to negotiate,

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Speaker 1: I think is a place where you can look at

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Speaker 1: how you can draw some boundaries there.

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Speaker 2: I love that. I love that sometimes you do have

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Speaker 2: to fake it till you make.

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Speaker 1: It exactly more from our conversation after the break.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so last one is, you know, I'm being a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a Generation trader, but gen Z is

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Speaker 2: going broke because they're afraid to ask their friends to

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Speaker 2: pay them back. A new report from Zell found that

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Speaker 2: many gen Z adults are going into debt not because

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Speaker 2: of what they're spending on themselves, but because they're covering

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Speaker 2: expenses for friends and family and struggling to ask for

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Speaker 2: the money back, whether it's concert tickets, vacations, dinners, or

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Speaker 2: group outings. Seventy six percent of gen Z respondents say

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Speaker 2: that they fronted the costs and weren't fully imbursed. Nearly

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Speaker 2: half reported falling into debt as a result, with many

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Speaker 2: saying they avoid bringing it up because money conversations feel

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Speaker 2: too awkward or uncomfortable, and the trend has been given

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Speaker 2: a name of payment avoid Why is asking for what

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Speaker 2: we're owed so uncomfortable specifically financially?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it kind of feels related in some

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Speaker 1: way to our first topic, right talking about like estate planning,

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Speaker 1: but on a very different level. I think what we

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Speaker 1: are often seeing with gen Z and you know, even

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Speaker 1: people younger, is that there is a lot of anxiety

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Speaker 1: around certain kinds of conversations. Some of that I feel

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Speaker 1: like is developmental, but some of that I worry is

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Speaker 1: becoming a more consistent kind of pattern that we really

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Speaker 1: do want to get a handle on, right. And so

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about is assertiveness, right, like the ability

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Speaker 1: to assert your needs and trust that people can take

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Speaker 1: your needs seriously and that you can get your needs

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Speaker 1: met right. And so often we are worried that you know,

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Speaker 1: you'll get some kind of like nasty reaction or that

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Speaker 1: people will you know, maybe be judgmental because you ask

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Speaker 1: a certain question. But the truth is, if there's an

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Speaker 1: understanding that I'm like paying for this upfront and then

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Speaker 1: everybody's gonna pay me back, then that should be the

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Speaker 1: expectation in the group, right, And so you asking for

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Speaker 1: the expectations to be met that we've all kind of shared,

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Speaker 1: I think is okay. Now, I do think you have

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Speaker 1: to be careful not being the one to kind of

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Speaker 1: volunteer your card or like volunteer to kind of upfront money,

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Speaker 1: especially if there has been a history of people not

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Speaker 1: paying you back. But if there is an expectation that

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Speaker 1: you will be paid back, then I think it is

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Speaker 1: something that is a muscle that you have to flex,

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Speaker 1: that you have to practice, just like any other skill

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Speaker 1: we learn is this feels a little awkward to ask,

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Speaker 1: but you know you didn't pay me back for the

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Speaker 1: Beyonce tickets? Like, when can I get my money now?

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Speaker 1: I have also seen though, and you have to have

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Speaker 1: a lot of trust in the group to do this.

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Speaker 1: I have also seen groups kind of have a shared

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Speaker 1: account for things like this, right, So like maybe you

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Speaker 1: have a shared checking account that, like the friend group

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Speaker 1: uses when y'all go out to eat or when you're

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Speaker 1: ready for concert takeiats, so that it's almost like you

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Speaker 1: are already kind of front loading the money. And then

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Speaker 1: maybe the most responsible person in the group, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind is the one that has a card, but you

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Speaker 1: all have access. That could be another way to kind

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Speaker 1: of get at some of this without maybe some of

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Speaker 1: the difficult conversations. But I do think again, navigating difficult

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Speaker 1: conversations are just a part of us being human and

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Speaker 1: being adults, And so the sooner that you can practice

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Speaker 1: having what could be an awkward conversation, the better off

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Speaker 1: you will be.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there is some type of correlation between

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Speaker 2: like intimacy and the ability to have financial conversations? Like

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Speaker 2: what does it cost us when we avoid those? Even

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Speaker 2: outside of just our wallets.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think that the financial conversation piece is

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Speaker 1: just like emblematic of the other parts of the relationship,

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Speaker 1: because if it's difficult to talk about finances, what else

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Speaker 1: are you avoiding talking about? Right? So I think this

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Speaker 1: is just like one small part, you know, like are

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Speaker 1: you also comfortable talking about like maybe even bigger issues

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Speaker 1: that also really establish intimacy in a relationship, right, And

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Speaker 1: I think navigating difficult conversations actually deepens intimacy in relationships

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Speaker 1: because you realize that maybe we can have a little

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Speaker 1: bit of disagreement, or maybe I can bring up something

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Speaker 1: awkward to you and then we're okay, right, And so

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Speaker 1: I think when we avoid difficult conversations, we also really

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Speaker 1: take away our ability to strengthen that muscle because we

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Speaker 1: don't realize, hey, I can do this difficult thing and

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Speaker 1: I'm still okay, and the relationship even got stronger. Now

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Speaker 1: we can bring up even more difficult things between one another.

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Speaker 1: And so I do think it can be an example

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Speaker 1: of like intimacy being difficult because you're afraid of the response, right,

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Speaker 1: Like you're afraid that people will judge you or maybe

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Speaker 1: see you differently because you ask this difficult thing when

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Speaker 1: the truth is that in strong relationship you can ask difficult,

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Speaker 1: awkward things and the relationship continues and it doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: people have like a sour attitude about who you are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well thank you for that. I think that's a

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Speaker 2: perfect piece of advice. Or no to end on, like,

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Speaker 2: have a difficult conversation today, Yes, what's that.

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Speaker 1: Thing that you have been avoiding? Let's get some practice

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Speaker 1: in making having those difficult conversations. Well, thanks, Elise, those

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Speaker 1: were great topics. Always excited to hear what we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be chatting about every week. And if there are things

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Speaker 1: happening in your circles that you want us to weigh

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Speaker 1: in on, please share those topics with us. You can

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Speaker 1: do that at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash mailbox.

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Speaker 1: And until next time, take good care of yourself, bry y'all,