Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ookap Daily with me
Speaker 1: your girl. Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks,
Speaker 1: I can't express enough that I did in yesterday's Woke Wednesday,
Speaker 1: what a existential crisis of humanity we are in and
Speaker 1: experiencing right now and every week, I and we collectively
Speaker 1: have the pleasure of welcoming in conversation by Jonathan That' soul.
Speaker 1: And today's conversation is really hard, and is really heavy,
Speaker 1: and it's really necessary because the only way that we're
Speaker 1: going to get through this is by being in conversation
Speaker 1: and connecting outside of the manipulation and propaganda that is
Speaker 1: being souped up and fed to us on all channels
Speaker 1: and in all spaces. And that is why I am
Speaker 1: calling for our collective humanity, our collective knowing, our collective
Speaker 1: care in this moment, because this is not a game.
Speaker 1: This is about us as people, as humans. What is
Speaker 1: happening right now that is being manipulated by governments that
Speaker 1: have agendas of hate fueled by greed. So we are
Speaker 1: in one of the most existential crises that we have
Speaker 1: experienced in modern time. So I encourage you to listen
Speaker 1: with an open mind and an open heart to the
Speaker 1: conversation that Jonathan and I have in this episode. I
Speaker 1: also encourage all of you to share it. I never
Speaker 1: really ask any one to listen to the show and
Speaker 1: share with your friends and do all of those things,
Speaker 1: but I will say between yesterday's Woke Wednesday and today,
Speaker 1: I do actually urge you, if you have been moved,
Speaker 1: if you have been stirred, if you want to create
Speaker 1: room and space for conversation and connection, do share them
Speaker 1: on whatever platforms you have, text them to friends and colleagues.
Speaker 1: We need connection, we need conversation, and we need to
Speaker 1: understand now more than ever, our shared humanity. Coming up
Speaker 1: next to my conversation with our friends and an in
Speaker 1: house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever
Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to speak with our in house doctor,
Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzell, I am always thrilled. This week, however,
Speaker 1: is probably one of the heaviest weeks. And I mean
Speaker 1: that's saying a lot for what we have been engaging
Speaker 1: and how we have been engaging in conversation with you,
Speaker 1: Jonathan over the last few years. I sent you, I
Speaker 1: sent a text this morning, because there is a I
Speaker 1: guess a tweet that is going around heavily on Instagram
Speaker 1: that I wanted to discuss with you, Jonathan, as soon
Speaker 1: as I saw it. Actually, and folks, it's from Kate
Speaker 1: Kelly at Kate Underscore, Kelly Underscore, Esquire ESQ and this
Speaker 1: is what it reads, and it was reposted on heavy
Speaker 1: discussion on Instagram. The modern phenomenon of watching war in
Speaker 1: real time on screens as if we're watching a soccer
Speaker 1: match and fighting with other people online about which side
Speaker 1: we support, like it's a fandom is devastatingly dehumanizing. And Jonathan,
Speaker 1: I wanted to get your reaction to that post in
Speaker 1: particular because it really struck me as probably for me,
Speaker 1: one of the most honest posts that I have seen
Speaker 1: about what we're experiencing right now. So I want to
Speaker 1: get your reaction.
Speaker 2: You know, I agree, this is the hardest week. This
Speaker 2: is the hardest week we've had, even when the pandemic
Speaker 2: was the worst. It just feels like the stakes are
Speaker 2: so incredibly high right now, and so I've been looking
Speaker 2: forward all week, honestly to our conversation and for a
Speaker 2: lot of people on all sides of this this is personal.
Speaker 2: I mean, for me, this is very personal, right My
Speaker 2: relatives escaped the gas chamber, and you know, the ones
Speaker 2: who did ended up in Israel at the time, and
Speaker 2: so I have a lot of relatives and who are
Speaker 2: very personally affected by this. It's a very personal issue
Speaker 2: for a lot of people. But it also is the
Speaker 2: risk of this right right now. I remember when I
Speaker 2: was doing my research on COVID and there was a
Speaker 2: phrase that was I can't remember who coined it, but
Speaker 2: it was called a polarizing crisis. A modern polarizing crisis
Speaker 2: that happened with COVID was that everybody was fucking scared.
Speaker 2: Excuse me to death, right, here's this thing that's killing us.
Speaker 2: So everybody was feeling vulnerable in a different way, like
Speaker 2: how could how could this be happening in our quote
Speaker 2: unquote world, that there's a bug we can't control that's
Speaker 2: killing us. But instead of coming together and shared humanity
Speaker 2: at that time, there were a couple of things that happened.
Speaker 2: Number one was that there were probably underlying divisions between
Speaker 2: people about how they thought about the government, how they
Speaker 2: thought about safety, how they thought about factors like that.
Speaker 2: But those divisions then were enhanced and manipulated by unseen
Speaker 2: actors in a way that made them identity issues to
Speaker 2: the point where seeming allies were all of a sudden
Speaker 2: on different sides. So all of a sudden, we were
Speaker 2: fighting with each other about mortality, about really real mortality.
Speaker 2: And this was manipulated by social media. There were bot
Speaker 2: farms that were working on this, all this kind of thing,
Speaker 2: And so in a way, the argument was that COVID
Speaker 2: was the perfect polarizing crisis because everybody felt it really deeply.
Speaker 2: Everybody had some association, some kind of somatic association. But
Speaker 2: then their response told them that the problem was people
Speaker 2: who were their allies. And I think the important point
Speaker 2: about that was who is served by dividing up people
Speaker 2: who are seemingly allies. Read Jason Stanley's book about about fascism.
Speaker 2: A divided opposition is what leads to the conditions that
Speaker 2: let fascism rise. Right that if you divide the opposition
Speaker 2: and just not just divide, but to convince them that
Speaker 2: they hate each other about life and death factors, you're
Speaker 2: going to have a fractured opposition, which paves the way
Speaker 2: for fascism to take over. And I feel like in
Speaker 2: a way what's been happening over the past week, just
Speaker 2: looking on social media, which is obviously being manipulated in
Speaker 2: all these kind of ways, but all these posts about
Speaker 2: people saying I thought you were my ally and you're not,
Speaker 2: or we marched with you and Selma and this is
Speaker 2: what we get, or you know, blah blah blah blah
Speaker 2: blah blah blah, and it just seems like, in a way,
Speaker 2: what's happening now is a fracturing. It's also a real tragedy, right,
Speaker 2: I have people who are being held hostage right now,
Speaker 2: and many people do, and there many of us have
Speaker 2: been working before all of this to try to end
Speaker 2: the occupation and all these things, like it's it's very
Speaker 2: very personal for a lot of people. But the idea
Speaker 2: of either you're on one side or another and we're fractured,
Speaker 2: it's like, how do you fight back against that? Right?
Speaker 2: Because the issue is the issue is it's a real issue,
Speaker 2: and maybe it's a real division. But what's going to
Speaker 2: happen is an outcome that is going to it's going
Speaker 2: to strengthen the forces that we've been fighting against forever.
Speaker 1: First, Johnathan, like my heart goes out to you, to
Speaker 1: your family, to so many people. I struggle to post
Speaker 1: and realize that as I read that post and have
Speaker 1: read it a couple of times, that what I struggle
Speaker 1: with in this moment is exactly what you said, is
Speaker 1: that there is there are forces that are at play
Speaker 1: to disconnect and divide all of us from our shared humanity.
Speaker 1: And for me, who does not have a personal stake
Speaker 1: in what is happening, I have a emotional and soulful
Speaker 1: and human stake in what is happening and unfolding. And
Speaker 1: I think that there are some that feel guilt because
Speaker 1: they are not directly impacted and connected, And then there
Speaker 1: are others that are trying to understand, well, why am
Speaker 1: I breaking down? Why am I crying? Why do I
Speaker 1: feel so weighted in this moment watching this unfold? And
Speaker 1: it's because we are human, and because when you are
Speaker 1: witnessing such dehumanization, such grief, and it being accelerated and
Speaker 1: exacerbated by political forces and greed and racism and bigotry
Speaker 1: and all of these things, and everything feels accelerated at
Speaker 1: this moment. I think that we are in a real
Speaker 1: global struggle for our collective humanity. And I think that
Speaker 1: we have been right for you know, for the last
Speaker 1: several years that we've watched, whether it's in the United States,
Speaker 1: whether it's in Russia, whether it's in Italy, whether it's
Speaker 1: in Turkey, we've watched forces rise that want to do
Speaker 1: absolutely no good in this world. And so I guess,
Speaker 1: you know, how do people, you know, how do you
Speaker 1: work through these emotions? When I will tell you for me,
Speaker 1: and this is going to be quite controversial for me,
Speaker 1: I struggled when I saw cities light up with the
Speaker 1: Israeli flag because it felt like there was a collective
Speaker 1: side that nation states were taking. When I said to
Speaker 1: myself and I said this in a post, what is
Speaker 1: the human flag? What is the color of humanity right
Speaker 1: now that we should be broadcasting and lifting up? And
Speaker 1: that's the struggle of where I am.
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, the two I'm going to say
Speaker 2: something about that because I'm feeling the same way in
Speaker 2: many ways. You know, the problem is that the choices
Speaker 2: were given right now in other words, like the choice
Speaker 2: the possibility that Hesbala is going to invade from the
Speaker 2: from the north, and there's going to be action over
Speaker 2: go on and there's going to be like a real
Speaker 2: fight for the future of a country, and then all
Speaker 2: these people saying, well the great this is the individual
Speaker 2: will where are that ten million people are going to go?
Speaker 2: Who or five million people are going to go? What's
Speaker 2: your plan for that? And so it feels like an
Speaker 2: existential fight for like, you know, a week ago, it
Speaker 2: was kind of like, how can we create alliances with
Speaker 2: people to ensure weal stability? And now it's like, is
Speaker 2: this country and the people who live there going to survive?
Speaker 2: And so I think that the question is how do
Speaker 2: you express that? No, that's a really real fear for
Speaker 2: a lot of people who are Jewish who have been
Speaker 2: fighting against I mean, for me, I'll just say like Nittagna,
Speaker 2: who is like the polepot of our era, like he's
Speaker 2: a war criminal and he's you know, insane. But for
Speaker 2: me fighting against Natania, who wasn't also saying all my
Speaker 2: relatives and the people I care about should be pushed
Speaker 2: into the sea or something like that. So it feels
Speaker 2: very existential, and I guess at this one moment it
Speaker 2: becomes like we want this nation to survive, We want
Speaker 2: at least the people who live there to survive. And
Speaker 2: that's how it's just kind of expressed. It's almost epigenetic
Speaker 2: for a lot of us that this is the fight
Speaker 2: that we've been brought up with, because it's kind of
Speaker 2: like for all these people who are saying on social media, well,
Speaker 2: this is it. I never I thought i'd see my
Speaker 2: dream of the end of Israel, like where's your plan
Speaker 2: for where the people are going to go? Right? Which
Speaker 2: is ties back to the period after the Holocaust when
Speaker 2: people didn't have any place to go, or during the
Speaker 2: Holocaust and stuff like that, which just feels very deep
Speaker 2: for a lot of us, honestly, and I would love
Speaker 2: And the problem is the problem is that all of
Speaker 2: our interactions are being mediated by a platform that's owned
Speaker 2: by Elon Musk and manipulated by the Russians and stuff
Speaker 2: like that. So the possibility of having a real conversation
Speaker 2: about humanity is being manipulated. Like we're being actually pitted
Speaker 2: against each other right now in a certain kind of
Speaker 2: way and in a way to get heard, you've got
Speaker 2: to do this. It's one thing or another or something
Speaker 2: like that. Like I don't know, think of all the
Speaker 2: stuff we didn't see on social media which talked about
Speaker 2: shared humanity, but that's going to get one retweet in
Speaker 2: the algorithm that is being funded by Elon Musk. And
Speaker 2: so the problem is that then you see this thing
Speaker 2: side for example, is the horrifically ill advised Black Lives
Speaker 2: Matter of Chicago depiction of a paraglider with a Palestinian flag,
Speaker 2: you know, the paragliders who went in and killed the
Speaker 2: people at the rape. And so all of a sudden
Speaker 2: people were like, well, that's all Black Lives Matter protests
Speaker 2: or something like that. Like the way social media works
Speaker 2: is through metonomy, right, the idea that, oh, this represents everybody.
Speaker 2: And so it's kind of like, oh, and so in
Speaker 2: a way, how do you fight back when the thing
Speaker 2: you're being fed is like, oh, here's the thing that
Speaker 2: reinforces your idea about the people who are against you,
Speaker 2: and this represents everybody. And so there is no space
Speaker 2: for middle ground in the platforms at least right now
Speaker 2: that we're engaging with, and I don't know where do
Speaker 2: we go to have a real conversation, like in a
Speaker 2: certain kind of way. And also, again, the stakes are
Speaker 2: so incredibly incredibly high right now that yes, I don't know,
Speaker 2: I just I feel like when I was trying to
Speaker 2: do I just wanted to like call all my allies
Speaker 2: on social media. I've got like, no, like I'm down
Speaker 2: to like twenty thousand Twitter followers or something. But I
Speaker 2: just wanted to like call everybody and say, can we
Speaker 2: just talk off of Twitter and figure something out. You know,
Speaker 2: I've been reaching out to friends of mine who are
Speaker 2: completely on the other side of me politically. I'm having
Speaker 2: conversations stuff, and I don't know, it's just this conversation
Speaker 2: is not going to happen on social media. Where we
Speaker 2: find that space you're talking about is kind of what
Speaker 2: I'm saying.
Speaker 1: No, And I think that and I think that you're right,
Speaker 1: and I have been trying to figure out, like where
Speaker 1: is the space to break through? But I think that
Speaker 1: what is most important is exactly what you just articulated,
Speaker 1: That what we are seeing and what we've been seeing
Speaker 1: right is being manipulated. And you have to ask and
Speaker 1: you know the other post that has been going around,
Speaker 1: which is that the killing of innocent Israeli is horrific,
Speaker 1: the killing of innocent Palestinians is horrific. And when you
Speaker 1: find yourself vying with those emotions, you have to ask yourself,
Speaker 1: what is the propaganda that you're ingesting that tells you
Speaker 1: that one side's murder, you know, beheading like brutality is
Speaker 1: you know, is worse than the other. And I think
Speaker 1: that what that does is exactly what you're saying, which
Speaker 1: is moves us further in these corners away from what
Speaker 1: we share as human beings, right, Because the way for
Speaker 1: a Netanyahu to be able to execute his genocidal plan,
Speaker 1: his homicidal plan, is to embed in people around the
Speaker 1: world that Palestinians shouldn't exist, that they are a given
Speaker 1: threat by birth and should be wiped from the planet.
Speaker 1: And it's just like when you ingest that, right, and
Speaker 1: you have to look at all the ways that different communities,
Speaker 1: at least that is what I see around the world,
Speaker 1: have experienced similar dehumanization, so that they're they're the violence
Speaker 1: that is placed against them is justifiable. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: and so we are. I feel like collectively, it's like
Speaker 1: I want to send out a fucking text message that
Speaker 1: says get off of social media, right, Like, you know,
Speaker 1: be really really intentional about where you are going and
Speaker 1: what you are being fed, and continue to ask yourself, like,
Speaker 1: where is this coming from? What am I absorbing? What
Speaker 1: am I pushing out because you are, to your point, Jonathan,
Speaker 1: being manipulated.
Speaker 2: I mean, think of the power of social media between
Speaker 2: Saturday and I don't know what the hell is today Tuesday.
Speaker 2: I feel like I've lived. I haven't slept in a
Speaker 2: long time. Here. It's divided allies in a way. Social
Speaker 2: media is so powerful for this, right, social social media
Speaker 2: is powerful for fracturing people and creating the conditions for totalitarianism,
Speaker 2: which is where we're heading. And so social media, it's
Speaker 2: just how do you get off of social media and
Speaker 2: still engage? And I don't know, it's just it's the
Speaker 2: true power of social media is something that I've been
Speaker 2: thinking about since Saturday. I mean, I don't know, I guess.
Speaker 2: I guess if I had to think of my honest
Speaker 2: responses right now, they would be two fold. I mean,
Speaker 2: one is like I understand the historical connectedness of the
Speaker 2: Palestinian struggle and the Black American struggle. Like I think
Speaker 2: people are missing a lot of Like it's not like
Speaker 2: this thing was invented on Saturday or something like that.
Speaker 2: But it's just complicated because I do feel, at least
Speaker 2: on social media again, that people are oversimplifying, like so
Speaker 2: many people, because of social media, think like Israelis are
Speaker 2: all a bunch of white people because that's all the
Speaker 2: Jews they know in the United States. You know, more
Speaker 2: than half of Israelis are non white. You've got more
Speaker 2: than half a million Yemeny Jews, You've got Ethiopian Jews,
Speaker 2: Eeritrean Jews. So Israel is not just a bunch of
Speaker 2: white people suppressing a bunch of non white people, which
Speaker 2: is kind of the binary that's being propagated here and
Speaker 2: a lot of you know, that's the struggle in Israel.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was there last summer in a conference
Speaker 2: for Yemeny Israeli doctors who were pushing back on the
Speaker 2: crimes that had been committed in the War of Independence
Speaker 2: by white Israelis against brown Israeli. So Israel is a
Speaker 2: complicated situation, but it's also really personal, right, It's a
Speaker 2: lot it's personal for I don't know, I guess I'm
Speaker 2: just more Jewish than I realized. But it's just really
Speaker 2: personal because the idea of like us having a place
Speaker 2: as a homeland that's going to protect us if the
Speaker 2: Holocaust ever happens again is just really deep for a
Speaker 2: lot of people, and so it's just a really embedded
Speaker 2: response to try to say that. And at the same time,
Speaker 2: I'm also realizing, like I don't take back one word
Speaker 2: I've ever said in my career, like I believe in
Speaker 2: anti racism, I believe in all the work I've ever done.
Speaker 2: I'm really proud of the work I've done and the
Speaker 2: alliances I've built. And I don't ever think that because
Speaker 2: I have this feeling of like wanting there to be
Speaker 2: a safe space for like my family that in a way,
Speaker 2: like my history, I always felt makes me better able
Speaker 2: to understand the work I do about studying oppression and injustice.
Speaker 2: And I would say that's true for a lot of people.
Speaker 2: And so I just have to kind of come to
Speaker 2: terms like where we're at and how do we get
Speaker 2: back to those alliances because I just can't let this
Speaker 2: be the kind of polarizing crisis that is being constructed
Speaker 2: right now or we have really big problems, which is
Speaker 2: that we're all you know, it's just very dark possibility
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that full stop. It's just a
Speaker 1: very dark existential place that the world finds itself in.
Speaker 1: It feels as if Jonathan and I know that you
Speaker 1: have to go. But the last thing that I will
Speaker 1: ask is that it feels as if this area of
Speaker 1: the world for many people who will never visit right,
Speaker 1: who have only ever seen pictures, who have only ever
Speaker 1: understood the Middle East through the context of war, right
Speaker 1: and salmon and refugees, and you've had the opportunity to
Speaker 1: visit multiple times. I was given the opportunity to visit
Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, and I had to move out of
Speaker 1: the context of the binary black and white in terms
Speaker 1: of understanding injustice because I had never seen I couldn't.
Speaker 1: It was hard to process how there was so much
Speaker 1: hatred when I'm like, you won't look like you come
Speaker 1: from the same family, it is so it is, it
Speaker 1: was such as a black queer American, it was so difficult.
Speaker 1: It was like a mind trip because I'm like, how
Speaker 1: do you even know, you know, like, aside from the
Speaker 1: scripture and prayer, how do you even know to hate
Speaker 1: said person because you look exactly like right in terms
Speaker 1: of skin tone, in terms of like it's like you
Speaker 1: know that you're all collectively from the same space. And
Speaker 1: so for me understanding racism through a very black and
Speaker 1: white lens and then having to extrapolate that in discrimination
Speaker 1: and prejudice like beyond melanin right from the from the
Speaker 1: vantage point that I have understood it my entire life.
Speaker 1: What do you offer to people who do want to
Speaker 1: tap out of social media? Is there any place to
Speaker 1: tap into that you are using, even if it's a book,
Speaker 1: if it's somebody's other podcast, if it is something that
Speaker 1: people can use as a resource.
Speaker 2: Well, let me just riff off of something you've just said,
Speaker 2: which I think is so important and so difficult, and
Speaker 2: not in any way an any way a critique honestly.
Speaker 2: But you know, I've lived in Israel for years of
Speaker 2: my life, different years of my life. I've I've was
Speaker 2: a physician for Israel Palestine, physicians for human rights. I've
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time on the quote unquote West Bank.
Speaker 2: I've spent, I've spent I've spent a lot of time
Speaker 2: in that region in my life. And I will tell
Speaker 2: you that race functions in a very different way that
Speaker 2: In a way, the irony of all of this is
Speaker 2: that Israelis have much more in common culturally with Palestinians
Speaker 2: than they do with American Jews. And that's again because
Speaker 2: half the population of Israel are people who escaped from
Speaker 2: Egypt or Yemen or Syria or other places like that.
Speaker 2: And so in a way, it's just if you're going
Speaker 2: to take us race categories, which are white oppressor and
Speaker 2: black resistance, it just race functions very differently in other
Speaker 2: parts of the world. And that's true in Brazil, for example,
Speaker 2: it's true in Africa, and it's also true in the
Speaker 2: Middle East. And so in a way, how do you
Speaker 2: think about that? And I guess it just leaves us
Speaker 2: with an ethnical question, which is if people are going
Speaker 2: to say, well, people, I mean, I'm going to say,
Speaker 2: people of color who are Israeli, are they white by
Speaker 2: the nature of being Israeli or are they Yemeny or
Speaker 2: Syrian or whatever their ancestry is. In a way, and
Speaker 2: if that's the case, I just I personally can't go
Speaker 2: there because that means that then we're all Trump supporters
Speaker 2: or you know, we're all right by the nature of
Speaker 2: being American, and I just don't think we would ever
Speaker 2: make that argument, you know, we're all oathkeepers or something
Speaker 2: like that. And that's also true for the Palestinians, right
Speaker 2: that there are politans who are oppressed by Hamas and
Speaker 2: and and so in a way, it's just it's just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe now the stakes are so high,
Speaker 2: maybe now is not the time to be having that
Speaker 2: conversation in a way, but there just have been so
Speaker 2: many natural alliances that are risked when we when we
Speaker 2: I don't know, I'm just I've been having this conversation
Speaker 2: with some colleagues of mine here because they're arguing that
Speaker 2: anti blackness is universal and I and maybe I would
Speaker 2: have supported that more last week, and I do think
Speaker 2: anti blackness is probably universal, but I would also say,
Speaker 2: I don't know, it just feels like a very decontextual
Speaker 2: argument for me in a certain kind of way. So
Speaker 2: these conversations are hard. I mean, in a way, these
Speaker 2: conversations are hard. I've been having conversations with people who
Speaker 2: completely don't agree with me, But I do think that
Speaker 2: I don't know, we just got to work together to
Speaker 2: figure out some kind of shared conversation or or or again,
Speaker 2: it's going to lead us to a place where all
Speaker 2: of our historic alliances that we've worked so hard to
Speaker 2: build are going to be co opted by agendas that
Speaker 2: are exactly the thing we've been fighting against.
Speaker 1: Jonathan, as always, I thank you so much for your time,
Speaker 1: for your insight, and for always making space for woka
Speaker 1: F and this audience, particularly right now. So thank you.
Speaker 2: Let's please keep talking, everybody. I mean, it's so urgent
Speaker 2: right now.
Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on woka F.
Speaker 1: As always, as always, power to the people and to
Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.