WEBVTT - An Existential Crisis of Humanity 0:00:11.720 --> 0:00:14.560 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to ookap Daily with me 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.919 your girl. Danielle Moody recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 0:00:19.640 --> 0:00:25.480 I can't express enough that I did in yesterday's Woke Wednesday, 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:32.640 what a existential crisis of humanity we are in and 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:40.440 experiencing right now and every week, I and we collectively 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:47.400 have the pleasure of welcoming in conversation by Jonathan That' soul. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:51.840 And today's conversation is really hard, and is really heavy, 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:54.840 and it's really necessary because the only way that we're 0:00:54.880 --> 0:01:00.400 going to get through this is by being in conversation 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:06.880 and connecting outside of the manipulation and propaganda that is 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.760 being souped up and fed to us on all channels 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.680 and in all spaces. And that is why I am 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:20.560 calling for our collective humanity, our collective knowing, our collective 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:26.160 care in this moment, because this is not a game. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:34.360 This is about us as people, as humans. What is 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:38.000 happening right now that is being manipulated by governments that 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:48.680 have agendas of hate fueled by greed. So we are 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:53.640 in one of the most existential crises that we have 0:01:53.800 --> 0:02:02.200 experienced in modern time. So I encourage you to listen 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:04.720 with an open mind and an open heart to the 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:09.680 conversation that Jonathan and I have in this episode. I 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.320 also encourage all of you to share it. I never 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:18.640 really ask any one to listen to the show and 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.440 share with your friends and do all of those things, 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:27.320 but I will say between yesterday's Woke Wednesday and today, 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:31.800 I do actually urge you, if you have been moved, 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:37.440 if you have been stirred, if you want to create 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:42.280 room and space for conversation and connection, do share them 0:02:42.520 --> 0:02:48.079 on whatever platforms you have, text them to friends and colleagues. 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.720 We need connection, we need conversation, and we need to 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:57.480 understand now more than ever, our shared humanity. Coming up 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:00.560 next to my conversation with our friends and an in 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:08.040 house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. Folks, you know that whenever 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:11.160 we have the opportunity to speak with our in house doctor, 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:15.919 doctor Jonathan Metzell, I am always thrilled. This week, however, 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:20.799 is probably one of the heaviest weeks. And I mean 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:25.480 that's saying a lot for what we have been engaging 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:28.480 and how we have been engaging in conversation with you, 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:33.320 Jonathan over the last few years. I sent you, I 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:40.520 sent a text this morning, because there is a I 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:44.720 guess a tweet that is going around heavily on Instagram 0:03:45.000 --> 0:03:47.960 that I wanted to discuss with you, Jonathan, as soon 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.600 as I saw it. Actually, and folks, it's from Kate 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:57.520 Kelly at Kate Underscore, Kelly Underscore, Esquire ESQ and this 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:00.440 is what it reads, and it was reposted on heavy 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:05.800 discussion on Instagram. The modern phenomenon of watching war in 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.800 real time on screens as if we're watching a soccer 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:12.320 match and fighting with other people online about which side 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:19.440 we support, like it's a fandom is devastatingly dehumanizing. And Jonathan, 0:04:19.520 --> 0:04:25.360 I wanted to get your reaction to that post in 0:04:25.400 --> 0:04:30.560 particular because it really struck me as probably for me, 0:04:31.920 --> 0:04:35.039 one of the most honest posts that I have seen 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:39.359 about what we're experiencing right now. So I want to 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:40.520 get your reaction. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:46.800 You know, I agree, this is the hardest week. This 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.640 is the hardest week we've had, even when the pandemic 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:51.640 was the worst. It just feels like the stakes are 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:56.080 so incredibly high right now, and so I've been looking 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:02.080 forward all week, honestly to our conversation and for a 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:04.520 lot of people on all sides of this this is personal. 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:06.839 I mean, for me, this is very personal, right My 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:13.800 relatives escaped the gas chamber, and you know, the ones 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:18.520 who did ended up in Israel at the time, and 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.640 so I have a lot of relatives and who are 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:26.640 very personally affected by this. It's a very personal issue 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:29.800 for a lot of people. But it also is the 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:34.240 risk of this right right now. I remember when I 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.760 was doing my research on COVID and there was a 0:05:36.880 --> 0:05:40.440 phrase that was I can't remember who coined it, but 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.960 it was called a polarizing crisis. A modern polarizing crisis 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:48.800 that happened with COVID was that everybody was fucking scared. 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.160 Excuse me to death, right, here's this thing that's killing us. 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:56.320 So everybody was feeling vulnerable in a different way, like 0:05:56.400 --> 0:05:59.400 how could how could this be happening in our quote 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:02.360 unquote world, that there's a bug we can't control that's 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.560 killing us. But instead of coming together and shared humanity 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.520 at that time, there were a couple of things that happened. 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.760 Number one was that there were probably underlying divisions between 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:17.760 people about how they thought about the government, how they 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.880 thought about safety, how they thought about factors like that. 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:27.160 But those divisions then were enhanced and manipulated by unseen 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.159 actors in a way that made them identity issues to 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:35.480 the point where seeming allies were all of a sudden 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.160 on different sides. So all of a sudden, we were 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.520 fighting with each other about mortality, about really real mortality. 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.880 And this was manipulated by social media. There were bot 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.240 farms that were working on this, all this kind of thing, 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:52.919 And so in a way, the argument was that COVID 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:57.240 was the perfect polarizing crisis because everybody felt it really deeply. 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:02.279 Everybody had some association, some kind of somatic association. But 0:07:02.400 --> 0:07:06.360 then their response told them that the problem was people 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.640 who were their allies. And I think the important point 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:13.000 about that was who is served by dividing up people 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:20.040 who are seemingly allies. Read Jason Stanley's book about about fascism. 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:24.320 A divided opposition is what leads to the conditions that 0:07:25.520 --> 0:07:29.720 let fascism rise. Right that if you divide the opposition 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.040 and just not just divide, but to convince them that 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:37.480 they hate each other about life and death factors, you're 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.360 going to have a fractured opposition, which paves the way 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:43.280 for fascism to take over. And I feel like in 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.440 a way what's been happening over the past week, just 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:50.720 looking on social media, which is obviously being manipulated in 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.200 all these kind of ways, but all these posts about 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.920 people saying I thought you were my ally and you're not, 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.760 or we marched with you and Selma and this is 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.760 what we get, or you know, blah blah blah blah 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:05.440 blah blah blah, and it just seems like, in a way, 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:11.200 what's happening now is a fracturing. It's also a real tragedy, right, 0:08:11.280 --> 0:08:16.240 I have people who are being held hostage right now, 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:22.800 and many people do, and there many of us have 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:27.560 been working before all of this to try to end 0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.600 the occupation and all these things, like it's it's very 0:08:29.720 --> 0:08:33.160 very personal for a lot of people. But the idea 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.040 of either you're on one side or another and we're fractured, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:40.720 it's like, how do you fight back against that? Right? 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:46.520 Because the issue is the issue is it's a real issue, 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:48.319 and maybe it's a real division. But what's going to 0:08:48.400 --> 0:08:53.520 happen is an outcome that is going to it's going 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.280 to strengthen the forces that we've been fighting against forever. 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:04.560 First, Johnathan, like my heart goes out to you, to 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:12.520 your family, to so many people. I struggle to post 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:17.520 and realize that as I read that post and have 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.120 read it a couple of times, that what I struggle 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.160 with in this moment is exactly what you said, is 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.040 that there is there are forces that are at play 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:35.240 to disconnect and divide all of us from our shared humanity. 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:43.200 And for me, who does not have a personal stake 0:09:44.040 --> 0:09:51.640 in what is happening, I have a emotional and soulful 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.000 and human stake in what is happening and unfolding. And 0:09:56.040 --> 0:09:59.400 I think that there are some that feel guilt because 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:03.160 they are not directly impacted and connected, And then there 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.320 are others that are trying to understand, well, why am 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.880 I breaking down? Why am I crying? Why do I 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:13.120 feel so weighted in this moment watching this unfold? And 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:17.800 it's because we are human, and because when you are 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:26.360 witnessing such dehumanization, such grief, and it being accelerated and 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:33.360 exacerbated by political forces and greed and racism and bigotry 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.320 and all of these things, and everything feels accelerated at 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:42.760 this moment. I think that we are in a real 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:47.640 global struggle for our collective humanity. And I think that 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:51.720 we have been right for you know, for the last 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.880 several years that we've watched, whether it's in the United States, 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.960 whether it's in Russia, whether it's in Italy, whether it's 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:06.240 in Turkey, we've watched forces rise that want to do 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:11.920 absolutely no good in this world. And so I guess, 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:16.760 you know, how do people, you know, how do you 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:22.080 work through these emotions? When I will tell you for me, 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.760 and this is going to be quite controversial for me, 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:30.480 I struggled when I saw cities light up with the 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:35.000 Israeli flag because it felt like there was a collective 0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:41.480 side that nation states were taking. When I said to 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.160 myself and I said this in a post, what is 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.800 the human flag? What is the color of humanity right 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:56.200 now that we should be broadcasting and lifting up? And 0:11:56.280 --> 0:12:00.000 that's the struggle of where I am. 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:08.120 I mean, you know, the two I'm going to say 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:10.240 something about that because I'm feeling the same way in 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:16.840 many ways. You know, the problem is that the choices 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:21.280 were given right now in other words, like the choice 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:25.800 the possibility that Hesbala is going to invade from the 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.560 from the north, and there's going to be action over 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.560 go on and there's going to be like a real 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.280 fight for the future of a country, and then all 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:38.240 these people saying, well the great this is the individual 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.120 will where are that ten million people are going to go? 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:46.480 Who or five million people are going to go? What's 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:48.439 your plan for that? And so it feels like an 0:12:48.480 --> 0:12:55.280 existential fight for like, you know, a week ago, it 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:58.640 was kind of like, how can we create alliances with 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.600 people to ensure weal stability? And now it's like, is 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:06.520 this country and the people who live there going to survive? 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:08.760 And so I think that the question is how do 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:10.720 you express that? No, that's a really real fear for 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.880 a lot of people who are Jewish who have been 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.000 fighting against I mean, for me, I'll just say like Nittagna, 0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.199 who is like the polepot of our era, like he's 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:25.800 a war criminal and he's you know, insane. But for 0:13:25.880 --> 0:13:29.240 me fighting against Natania, who wasn't also saying all my 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.760 relatives and the people I care about should be pushed 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:33.280 into the sea or something like that. So it feels 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.720 very existential, and I guess at this one moment it 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:42.920 becomes like we want this nation to survive, We want 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.600 at least the people who live there to survive. And 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:49.080 that's how it's just kind of expressed. It's almost epigenetic 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.319 for a lot of us that this is the fight 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:54.960 that we've been brought up with, because it's kind of 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:58.840 like for all these people who are saying on social media, well, 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:00.640 this is it. I never I thought i'd see my 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:03.800 dream of the end of Israel, like where's your plan 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:06.680 for where the people are going to go? Right? Which 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:10.080 is ties back to the period after the Holocaust when 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:11.719 people didn't have any place to go, or during the 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:13.760 Holocaust and stuff like that, which just feels very deep 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:17.320 for a lot of us, honestly, and I would love 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:23.360 And the problem is the problem is that all of 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:26.320 our interactions are being mediated by a platform that's owned 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.360 by Elon Musk and manipulated by the Russians and stuff 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.120 like that. So the possibility of having a real conversation 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:36.400 about humanity is being manipulated. Like we're being actually pitted 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.520 against each other right now in a certain kind of 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.960 way and in a way to get heard, you've got 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.040 to do this. It's one thing or another or something 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:46.680 like that. Like I don't know, think of all the 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:49.600 stuff we didn't see on social media which talked about 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.000 shared humanity, but that's going to get one retweet in 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:54.760 the algorithm that is being funded by Elon Musk. And 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.080 so the problem is that then you see this thing 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:04.840 side for example, is the horrifically ill advised Black Lives 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:14.280 Matter of Chicago depiction of a paraglider with a Palestinian flag, 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:16.080 you know, the paragliders who went in and killed the 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:17.640 people at the rape. And so all of a sudden 0:15:17.720 --> 0:15:20.080 people were like, well, that's all Black Lives Matter protests 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.680 or something like that. Like the way social media works 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:28.960 is through metonomy, right, the idea that, oh, this represents everybody. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.320 And so it's kind of like, oh, and so in 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.000 a way, how do you fight back when the thing 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.320 you're being fed is like, oh, here's the thing that 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:38.960 reinforces your idea about the people who are against you, 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.440 and this represents everybody. And so there is no space 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.480 for middle ground in the platforms at least right now 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:50.200 that we're engaging with, and I don't know where do 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.520 we go to have a real conversation, like in a 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.480 certain kind of way. And also, again, the stakes are 0:15:55.520 --> 0:16:01.760 so incredibly incredibly high right now that yes, I don't know, 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:03.920 I just I feel like when I was trying to 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:08.520 do I just wanted to like call all my allies 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:10.760 on social media. I've got like, no, like I'm down 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:13.400 to like twenty thousand Twitter followers or something. But I 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:15.720 just wanted to like call everybody and say, can we 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:18.520 just talk off of Twitter and figure something out. You know, 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.280 I've been reaching out to friends of mine who are 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:25.000 completely on the other side of me politically. I'm having 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:28.000 conversations stuff, and I don't know, it's just this conversation 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:29.560 is not going to happen on social media. Where we 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:31.320 find that space you're talking about is kind of what 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:31.760 I'm saying. 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:34.760 No, And I think that and I think that you're right, 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:37.360 and I have been trying to figure out, like where 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.360 is the space to break through? But I think that 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.360 what is most important is exactly what you just articulated, 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.680 That what we are seeing and what we've been seeing 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.560 right is being manipulated. And you have to ask and 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:54.200 you know the other post that has been going around, 0:16:54.720 --> 0:17:00.920 which is that the killing of innocent Israeli is horrific, 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.560 the killing of innocent Palestinians is horrific. And when you 0:17:05.720 --> 0:17:11.760 find yourself vying with those emotions, you have to ask yourself, 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.840 what is the propaganda that you're ingesting that tells you 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:23.639 that one side's murder, you know, beheading like brutality is 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.520 you know, is worse than the other. And I think 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:31.760 that what that does is exactly what you're saying, which 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.320 is moves us further in these corners away from what 0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:40.399 we share as human beings, right, Because the way for 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:45.879 a Netanyahu to be able to execute his genocidal plan, 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:53.600 his homicidal plan, is to embed in people around the 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:59.159 world that Palestinians shouldn't exist, that they are a given 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.040 threat by birth and should be wiped from the planet. 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:09.919 And it's just like when you ingest that, right, and 0:18:09.960 --> 0:18:15.080 you have to look at all the ways that different communities, 0:18:15.280 --> 0:18:17.760 at least that is what I see around the world, 0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:25.840 have experienced similar dehumanization, so that they're they're the violence 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:32.240 that is placed against them is justifiable. And I'm like, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.320 and so we are. I feel like collectively, it's like 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:38.240 I want to send out a fucking text message that 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.959 says get off of social media, right, Like, you know, 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.960 be really really intentional about where you are going and 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.479 what you are being fed, and continue to ask yourself, like, 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.919 where is this coming from? What am I absorbing? What 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.840 am I pushing out because you are, to your point, Jonathan, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:18:58.920 being manipulated. 0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:03.080 I mean, think of the power of social media between 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.200 Saturday and I don't know what the hell is today Tuesday. 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.280 I feel like I've lived. I haven't slept in a 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:13.760 long time. Here. It's divided allies in a way. Social 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.119 media is so powerful for this, right, social social media 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:23.680 is powerful for fracturing people and creating the conditions for totalitarianism, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.720 which is where we're heading. And so social media, it's 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:28.679 just how do you get off of social media and 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:32.320 still engage? And I don't know, it's just it's the 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.360 true power of social media is something that I've been 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.520 thinking about since Saturday. I mean, I don't know, I guess. 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:44.480 I guess if I had to think of my honest 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:49.840 responses right now, they would be two fold. I mean, 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:55.560 one is like I understand the historical connectedness of the 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:58.840 Palestinian struggle and the Black American struggle. Like I think 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:01.080 people are missing a lot of Like it's not like 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:03.520 this thing was invented on Saturday or something like that. 0:20:04.960 --> 0:20:08.280 But it's just complicated because I do feel, at least 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:13.439 on social media again, that people are oversimplifying, like so 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.239 many people, because of social media, think like Israelis are 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.480 all a bunch of white people because that's all the 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.040 Jews they know in the United States. You know, more 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.560 than half of Israelis are non white. You've got more 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.520 than half a million Yemeny Jews, You've got Ethiopian Jews, 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:32.119 Eeritrean Jews. So Israel is not just a bunch of 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:35.640 white people suppressing a bunch of non white people, which 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:38.920 is kind of the binary that's being propagated here and 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:41.960 a lot of you know, that's the struggle in Israel. 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:47.080 I mean, I was there last summer in a conference 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:52.480 for Yemeny Israeli doctors who were pushing back on the 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:57.080 crimes that had been committed in the War of Independence 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:02.040 by white Israelis against brown Israeli. So Israel is a 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:07.040 complicated situation, but it's also really personal, right, It's a 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.640 lot it's personal for I don't know, I guess I'm 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:12.960 just more Jewish than I realized. But it's just really 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.320 personal because the idea of like us having a place 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.840 as a homeland that's going to protect us if the 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:22.639 Holocaust ever happens again is just really deep for a 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:26.639 lot of people, and so it's just a really embedded 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.160 response to try to say that. And at the same time, 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.080 I'm also realizing, like I don't take back one word 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.840 I've ever said in my career, like I believe in 0:21:37.880 --> 0:21:41.360 anti racism, I believe in all the work I've ever done. 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:43.760 I'm really proud of the work I've done and the 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:48.159 alliances I've built. And I don't ever think that because 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.280 I have this feeling of like wanting there to be 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:56.280 a safe space for like my family that in a way, 0:21:56.359 --> 0:22:00.320 like my history, I always felt makes me better able 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:05.800 to understand the work I do about studying oppression and injustice. 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:08.960 And I would say that's true for a lot of people. 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:10.439 And so I just have to kind of come to 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.280 terms like where we're at and how do we get 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.480 back to those alliances because I just can't let this 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:20.400 be the kind of polarizing crisis that is being constructed 0:22:20.480 --> 0:22:25.000 right now or we have really big problems, which is 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:28.920 that we're all you know, it's just very dark possibility 0:22:28.960 --> 0:22:29.159 for me. 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:35.479 Yeah, and I think that full stop. It's just a 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:41.199 very dark existential place that the world finds itself in. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:46.520 It feels as if Jonathan and I know that you 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:50.119 have to go. But the last thing that I will 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:54.760 ask is that it feels as if this area of 0:22:54.800 --> 0:22:57.760 the world for many people who will never visit right, 0:22:57.800 --> 0:23:00.440 who have only ever seen pictures, who have only ever 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:05.920 understood the Middle East through the context of war, right 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:11.560 and salmon and refugees, and you've had the opportunity to 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:16.040 visit multiple times. I was given the opportunity to visit 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:20.800 in twenty fifteen, and I had to move out of 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:24.119 the context of the binary black and white in terms 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:28.760 of understanding injustice because I had never seen I couldn't. 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.800 It was hard to process how there was so much 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:37.520 hatred when I'm like, you won't look like you come 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.919 from the same family, it is so it is, it 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:46.280 was such as a black queer American, it was so difficult. 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.960 It was like a mind trip because I'm like, how 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:55.240 do you even know, you know, like, aside from the 0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.200 scripture and prayer, how do you even know to hate 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:02.320 said person because you look exactly like right in terms 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.800 of skin tone, in terms of like it's like you 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:07.520 know that you're all collectively from the same space. And 0:24:07.560 --> 0:24:13.520 so for me understanding racism through a very black and 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:18.920 white lens and then having to extrapolate that in discrimination 0:24:19.040 --> 0:24:24.560 and prejudice like beyond melanin right from the from the 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:29.920 vantage point that I have understood it my entire life. 0:24:30.080 --> 0:24:32.879 What do you offer to people who do want to 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:37.639 tap out of social media? Is there any place to 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:42.240 tap into that you are using, even if it's a book, 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:48.000 if it's somebody's other podcast, if it is something that 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:49.560 people can use as a resource. 0:24:50.400 --> 0:24:52.760 Well, let me just riff off of something you've just said, 0:24:52.760 --> 0:24:55.680 which I think is so important and so difficult, and 0:24:55.720 --> 0:25:03.720 not in any way an any way a critique honestly. 0:25:03.800 --> 0:25:07.479 But you know, I've lived in Israel for years of 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:11.199 my life, different years of my life. I've I've was 0:25:11.240 --> 0:25:15.160 a physician for Israel Palestine, physicians for human rights. I've 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:18.120 spent a lot of time on the quote unquote West Bank. 0:25:18.160 --> 0:25:22.920 I've spent, I've spent I've spent a lot of time 0:25:23.000 --> 0:25:26.480 in that region in my life. And I will tell 0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:30.359 you that race functions in a very different way that 0:25:30.440 --> 0:25:32.520 In a way, the irony of all of this is 0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:37.399 that Israelis have much more in common culturally with Palestinians 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:43.240 than they do with American Jews. And that's again because 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.080 half the population of Israel are people who escaped from 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:53.639 Egypt or Yemen or Syria or other places like that. 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:55.960 And so in a way, it's just if you're going 0:25:56.040 --> 0:26:01.640 to take us race categories, which are white oppressor and 0:26:01.880 --> 0:26:07.160 black resistance, it just race functions very differently in other 0:26:07.200 --> 0:26:10.080 parts of the world. And that's true in Brazil, for example, 0:26:10.160 --> 0:26:14.080 it's true in Africa, and it's also true in the 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:18.520 Middle East. And so in a way, how do you 0:26:18.640 --> 0:26:20.760 think about that? And I guess it just leaves us 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:22.920 with an ethnical question, which is if people are going 0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:26.480 to say, well, people, I mean, I'm going to say, 0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:30.080 people of color who are Israeli, are they white by 0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:33.760 the nature of being Israeli or are they Yemeny or 0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:39.760 Syrian or whatever their ancestry is. In a way, and 0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:42.040 if that's the case, I just I personally can't go 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:46.320 there because that means that then we're all Trump supporters 0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:48.800 or you know, we're all right by the nature of 0:26:48.840 --> 0:26:50.800 being American, and I just don't think we would ever 0:26:50.840 --> 0:26:53.720 make that argument, you know, we're all oathkeepers or something 0:26:53.720 --> 0:26:56.440 like that. And that's also true for the Palestinians, right 0:26:56.480 --> 0:26:59.480 that there are politans who are oppressed by Hamas and 0:26:59.720 --> 0:27:06.359 and and so in a way, it's just it's just like, 0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:10.440 I don't know, Maybe now the stakes are so high, 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:12.600 maybe now is not the time to be having that 0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:16.600 conversation in a way, but there just have been so 0:27:16.720 --> 0:27:20.800 many natural alliances that are risked when we when we 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:23.280 I don't know, I'm just I've been having this conversation 0:27:23.359 --> 0:27:25.840 with some colleagues of mine here because they're arguing that 0:27:25.920 --> 0:27:32.440 anti blackness is universal and I and maybe I would 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:35.160