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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stump Mom Never told you?

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Speaker 1: From House top Works dot Com. Hey Aaron, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristin h I'm Molly. Today we are

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Speaker 1: going to dive into the world of relationship cliches and

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Speaker 1: popular sayings such as why are nice girls attracted to

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Speaker 1: bad boys? And why did nice guys finished last? Have

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Speaker 1: you ever heard those? Molly? I have that ring true?

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Speaker 1: It does, and you see it all the time in

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Speaker 1: movies and television. I mean, we've we've talked before about

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Speaker 1: our attraction to Don Draper TV's Madman. He's a bad boy.

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Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, we still love him. We do still love him,

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Speaker 1: even though we know that he's going to leave and

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Speaker 1: or cheat on us, break our hearts. And so that's

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Speaker 1: sort of the stereotypical thing is sometimes even when you

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Speaker 1: know you're doing something you shouldn't, you just can't stop yourself.

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Speaker 1: Why is that? Yeah, what's the appeal of bad boys?

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Speaker 1: And there's actually been a lot of research on this

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Speaker 1: quote unquote bad boy personality type, and it is a

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Speaker 1: well documented set of traits that is referred to as

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Speaker 1: the dark Triad. You know, I think if we called

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Speaker 1: guys um like dark triad exhibitors rather than bad boys,

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Speaker 1: they would lose all their appeal. Yeah, because when I

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Speaker 1: think of a bad boy, I think about you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like wearing a leather jacket, a motorcycle, smoke and

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Speaker 1: a cigarette. You know. But maybe we should start instead

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Speaker 1: of yeah saying bad boys, be like, stay away from him.

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Speaker 1: He is a dark triad. It's like the Bermuda triangle,

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Speaker 1: and it really makes the conversation sound more intelligent. He

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Speaker 1: really demonstrates a lot of dark Triad characteristics. So, now

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Speaker 1: that people are thoroughly confused, um, let's talk about the

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Speaker 1: dark t What exactly is the dark triad. At first,

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Speaker 1: we've got narcissism or self obsession, pretty self explanatory. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we might all know someone who's got a little touch

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Speaker 1: of that. I'm sitting across from more, just kidding, um.

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Speaker 1: And then we have machiavellianism, which is typified by exploitative, manipulative,

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Speaker 1: and deceitful behavior. Lastly, in the dark triad, we have psychopathy.

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Speaker 1: But you know that sounds like something you don't automatically

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Speaker 1: stick away from but sometimes the traits of impulsivity, thrill seeking,

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Speaker 1: risk taking can be very attractive to women. And I mean, really,

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Speaker 1: if we put all these characteristics together, you know, being

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Speaker 1: kind of self absorbed but also risky and kind of

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Speaker 1: manipulative and possibly deceitful, we really just had a character

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Speaker 1: sketch of Don Draper and other uh quote unquote bad

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Speaker 1: boys from pop culture. Now you you listen to those

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Speaker 1: three things and you're like, how would I ever be

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Speaker 1: attracted to that? Why would I want to marry that?

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Speaker 1: And stize have shown that girls don't want to marry

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Speaker 1: the dark triad, But these fellows are very successful at

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Speaker 1: the short term mating strategy a k a. A one

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Speaker 1: night stand, a you know, a short term relationship, everything

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Speaker 1: without strings, things that girls might get themselves into thinking

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Speaker 1: that things will change down the line, but the fact

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Speaker 1: matter is they don't. Yeah, love them and leave them,

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Speaker 1: love them and leave them. And this dark triad is

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Speaker 1: not just the stuff of fiction. It is a universal

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Speaker 1: trait that has been identified in fifty seven different countries

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Speaker 1: and it also appears to be genetically linked, meaning that

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Speaker 1: some bad boys are just bad boys for life. And

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Speaker 1: that's because you know, they're so successful at short term

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Speaker 1: mating that, to use an old evolutionary term, they're spreading

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Speaker 1: their seed, right. They actually researchers think that this is

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Speaker 1: an evolutionarily developed short term mating strategy, and the males

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Speaker 1: will have to they're forced into these short term affairs

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Speaker 1: because once the community figures out that they have, you know,

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Speaker 1: a psychopathic narcissists on their hands, he will be you know, alienated,

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Speaker 1: and so of course he has to has to move

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Speaker 1: on down the road. So that's why he can't stick

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Speaker 1: around lazies, because you are going to get onto him

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Speaker 1: at some point. But just maybe blame it on evolution. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: apparently that's what these researchers are doing, is that you know,

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Speaker 1: it works for them short term that perhaps they you know,

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Speaker 1: spread the geneon. But they because they are so um

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Speaker 1: impulsive narcissistic, it's not like they're gonna change and stay

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Speaker 1: with you. That drive will lead them not just to

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Speaker 1: get out of the community because they're probably gonna be

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Speaker 1: run out on rails, but also to seek new partners,

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Speaker 1: to seek that new excitement to steal other people's partners.

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Speaker 1: You know, they there again, they're just not great guys. Now,

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about the Dark Triad, we we would

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Speaker 1: be remiss to not mention Peter Kay Jonason from New

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Speaker 1: Mexico State University, who is one of the pioneers in

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Speaker 1: this personality research. A lot of these studies that we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, and a lot of the UM news reports

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Speaker 1: that have gone along with it are linked to research

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Speaker 1: that he has done. I mean, he has dug into

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Speaker 1: the Dark Triad on all different sides, because at first glance,

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Speaker 1: you would think that the Dark Triad, I mean, first

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Speaker 1: of all, it just sounds like something terrible, and you

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Speaker 1: think that it would have all sorts of negative repercussions.

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Speaker 1: But Jonason has then a lot of work to dig into,

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Speaker 1: first of all, why it has persisted throughout the ages

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Speaker 1: and um and hasn't just been weeded out through natural selection,

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Speaker 1: but also looking at the upside of it, because obviously

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Speaker 1: in order for it to have not been weeded out,

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Speaker 1: it had to have been beneficial. At some point, now

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Speaker 1: you might be thinking to yourself, at some point, are

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Speaker 1: we totally skewing this conversation right now? Are we turning

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Speaker 1: ourselves as women into the victims of you know, these

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Speaker 1: these dark Triad men? You know is it's just like

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Speaker 1: a totally sexist conversation that we're having. Well, the reason

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Speaker 1: why we are keep talking about this trait in men

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Speaker 1: is because Jonasan's research has shown over and over again

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Speaker 1: that while the dark tribe can't exist in women, can

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Speaker 1: exhibit in women, as we will discuss in a moment,

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Speaker 1: it shows up far more often in men. And it

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Speaker 1: makes sense because evolutionarily speaking, short term mating strategies are

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Speaker 1: simply more beneficial and more feasible to men. Because as women,

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Speaker 1: as we've talked about and come back to an uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: number of times on this podcast, it seems, um, you know, women,

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Speaker 1: short term mating strategies for women are are more of

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Speaker 1: a risky proposition because of a little thing called pregnancy. Right,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna be the one who's sticking around and taking

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Speaker 1: care of the baby. Now, there have been there has

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Speaker 1: been the hypothesis put out there that eventually, as girls

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Speaker 1: you know, have figured out over time that they are

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Speaker 1: gonna be stuck with the baby, will dark triads kind

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Speaker 1: of fall out of favor, Will we be more careful

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Speaker 1: when we hook up with the dark triads? And will

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Speaker 1: eventually the sort of die out but for now it

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Speaker 1: it's very sick successful because to some extent on the

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Speaker 1: short term, women are attracted to risk as a factor

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Speaker 1: in choosing a mate. Yes, Susan Kelly from the University

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Speaker 1: of Liverpool published a study entitled Heroism versus Altruism and

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Speaker 1: Women's mate Choices, and she found that altruism was deemed

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Speaker 1: more important in long term relationships and friendships. Obviously, you

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Speaker 1: know you want a nice, agreeable person if you're gonna

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Speaker 1: see their face every day. But for short short term

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Speaker 1: Liaison's non altruists, the risky, the risky ones out there

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Speaker 1: were preferred to altruists, and so she pausess that heroism

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Speaker 1: and which is associated with that kind of risk taking

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Speaker 1: behavior may have evolved because of a female preference for brave,

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Speaker 1: risk prone males, because the risk taking acts as an

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Speaker 1: honest cue for good genes. Basically, the idea is that

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Speaker 1: a man who is or a mate in general, who

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Speaker 1: is uh stronger and fitter and has better genes can

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Speaker 1: take more risks than say a weaker person, because there's

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Speaker 1: not quite as much on the line, and there's a

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Speaker 1: bigger chance that, you know, if he gets himself in

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Speaker 1: a jam, that he can get out right. And also,

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Speaker 1: you know, women are looking for good protectors and providers

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Speaker 1: for their family. If you've got a risk taker who

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Speaker 1: will say jump on the tracks to say people he

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Speaker 1: doesn't know, there's a greater chance that he will save

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Speaker 1: his own children should there be an accident. But you know,

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Speaker 1: there was another study that we ran across called it

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Speaker 1: is Risk Taking used as a Q and mate choice,

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Speaker 1: led by a team of researchers, and I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: throughout Andrea's Wilkie, He's listed first. That says that there

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Speaker 1: may be particular risk that we're more attractive to than others.

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Speaker 1: And remember the reason we're talking about risk is because

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Speaker 1: it's huge factor in this dark Triads psychopathy characterization. Now,

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Speaker 1: this study looked at six domains of risk taking recreation

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Speaker 1: in that you know, he plays physical sports and takes

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Speaker 1: a chance, you know, to compete against others, Ethics, cheating

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Speaker 1: or stealing, gambling a k a. Betting in a casino

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Speaker 1: investment a k a. Gambling with the stock market, health

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Speaker 1: like smoking or drinking, and social risks such as arguing

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Speaker 1: for unpopular issues. And the study found that just you know,

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Speaker 1: they're only going to be certain areas in which a

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Speaker 1: woman is going to stick around if you are taking risk. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the health risk factor, not surprisingly is the major category

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Speaker 1: where it's just a huge turn off for people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if if you are risking your health through say alcoholism

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Speaker 1: or drug abuse, is not going to be too appealing.

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Speaker 1: And then with other risky behaviors such as gambling, another

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Speaker 1: turn off. It's sort of like foolish risks versus um more.

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Speaker 1: I guess I don't know altruistic risk for instance, like

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Speaker 1: taking up the social cause and unpopular social cause. And

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Speaker 1: according to these studies, women like men who play sports,

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Speaker 1: although the study did point out too that risky risk

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Speaker 1: taking behavior not necessarily risky behavior. We think about risky

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Speaker 1: behavior is you know, like Tom Cruise maybe exactly, or

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Speaker 1: risky business. But risky behavior risk behavior is a cross

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Speaker 1: gender appealing trade. Men find risky women to be just

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Speaker 1: as appealing um as well, which is why there can

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Speaker 1: be the dark triad in some women. If you've got

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Speaker 1: this in combination with that devil make care approach, dark

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Speaker 1: triad women do do exist. They are in the same

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Speaker 1: way as men, not that successful at long term relationships. Now,

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Speaker 1: if we talk about getting into a relationship with a

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Speaker 1: member of the dark Triad, making it sound like some

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Speaker 1: kind of cult. Uh. At the outset, that sounds like

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Speaker 1: a terrible thing. But like we mentioned earlier, there are

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Speaker 1: some upswings to this dark triad because they usually exhibit

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Speaker 1: emotional stability because they're so narcissistic that they are just

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Speaker 1: really not flagged by a lot of things. They have

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Speaker 1: resist alliant self esteem because they are the best person

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Speaker 1: you will ever meet in their minds, and they have

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Speaker 1: increased sexual success just because they're sort of driven by

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Speaker 1: the psychopathy, by the risk taking behavior, by the impulsivity. Um.

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Speaker 1: So all of that might seem very appealing at the outset. However,

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Speaker 1: all of that behavior also leads to the dark triad

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Speaker 1: getting ants in their pants. For lack of a more

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Speaker 1: intellectual way to phrase it, they need to feed that

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Speaker 1: risk and that impulse, so a lot of times, not surprisingly,

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Speaker 1: the dark triad is also associated with mate poaching. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so say you're a dark tried person. You're gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: and you're in a relationship with someone, uh and it

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Speaker 1: just you know, the honeymoon phases over. You're gonna jump

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Speaker 1: to someone else, and your you might choose someone who's

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Speaker 1: already attached because of the heightened the heightened risk and

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Speaker 1: chance of it. Oh, you are leaving your own mate

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Speaker 1: who you probably didn't take the time to break up

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Speaker 1: with expose. And so men who are dark dark tread exhibitors,

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Speaker 1: they tend to have their own girlfriends stolen. Uh so

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Speaker 1: they probably don't care. But you mentioned the honeymoon period,

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Speaker 1: christ and I think that's really important for girls or

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Speaker 1: guys who tend to get into relationships with dark tried individuals.

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Speaker 1: Two remembers that yes, everything is great at first, and

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Speaker 1: you're not crazy if all of a sudden you're like, whoa,

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Speaker 1: this guy's a jerk or this woman's a jerk. It

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Speaker 1: it starts off very well. And there was this really

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Speaker 1: great article in a psychologies magazine about how the woman

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Speaker 1: was just like, I don't know what went wrong because

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Speaker 1: it was so wonderful, but you know, he wouldn't do

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Speaker 1: things like meet my parents or you know, let me

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Speaker 1: leave a toothbrush over there. And it's not insane to realize, Hey,

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Speaker 1: even though this was a great few months, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to cut my losses and say goodbye dark to the

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Speaker 1: dark triad. And I think that we should point out

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Speaker 1: to that we're not again like this conversation isn't to

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Speaker 1: make us sound like we are just victims to the

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Speaker 1: Dark Triad and everyone is going to be swept up

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Speaker 1: in it. There are certain personality types that are more

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Speaker 1: attracted to the Dark Triad than others. For instance, Psychologies

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Speaker 1: Magazine also pointed out that new research by Peter K.

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Speaker 1: Jonason from New Mexico suggests that women was so called

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Speaker 1: avoidant attachment patterns are more likely to be drawn to

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Speaker 1: Dark Triad men. And those are basically women who are

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Speaker 1: low and self esteem and had unstable and unpredictable family

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Speaker 1: lives who are kind of drawn to these wild cars

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Speaker 1: because you know, if you have someone with low self esteem,

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Speaker 1: the dark Triad, like we said, kind of has impenetrable

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Speaker 1: self esteem, and you know, might seem just so wonderful

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Speaker 1: and strong. But one thing that we haven't really touched on,

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Speaker 1: and to be frank, there really isn't that much research

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Speaker 1: on this, but it's how the Dark Triad exhibits in women. Yes,

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Speaker 1: surely you know there are plenty of love them and

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Speaker 1: leave them type of women out there as well, but

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Speaker 1: Jonasan's research points out that women high in the dark

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Speaker 1: triad seem to use friendships more strategically than romantic relationships.

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Speaker 1: Um and he says that they may keep male friends

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Speaker 1: quote unquote on retainer to help out with things like

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Speaker 1: moving their houses, um and they may keep female friends

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Speaker 1: just to stroke their egos. And a lot of times

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Speaker 1: women's success that they gain, uh, that's associated with their

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Speaker 1: dark triad traits are more relative to accumulating personal wealth

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Speaker 1: and career success rather than sexual success in terms of

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Speaker 1: well a few term success having a number of partners,

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Speaker 1: um and that's you know, to go back to another

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Speaker 1: podcast we've done, whether men and women can be friends,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan would say that a dark treadman will never be

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Speaker 1: friends with female because he is too interested in and

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Speaker 1: meeting success as that was just defined as number of

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Speaker 1: sexual partners. So if you can't get sex, he's probably

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Speaker 1: not going to stick around. Yeah, platonic friendships and dark

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Speaker 1: tread men do not go together. So what do you

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Speaker 1: do though, if you if you encounter a dark triad

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Speaker 1: and it's not necessarily in a romantic sense, because the

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Speaker 1: thing that came to my mind, you know, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about Don Draper as being a dark triad not only

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Speaker 1: does Don Draper have a lot of different affairs on Madman,

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Speaker 1: but he also quickly climbs the ladder at Sterling Cooper

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Speaker 1: And that's something that Jonasan has looked into because these

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Speaker 1: characteristics are kind of successful for climbing the career ladder.

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Speaker 1: If you don't care what people think, if you are

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Speaker 1: out to just in it to win it, that can

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Speaker 1: really help your organization, especially in the short term. If

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Speaker 1: you don't get nervous before a big presentation, if you're

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Speaker 1: willing to gamble and you know, have a big win,

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Speaker 1: it can really help your company. So if you work

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Speaker 1: for someone who is a dark triad personality, there are

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Speaker 1: certain things you can do to kind of help yourself.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're not going to worry that the boss

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Speaker 1: may not worry if you like them, but you can

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Speaker 1: manipulate them because they still have that narcissistic element and

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Speaker 1: if you, you know, unfortunately kind of just have to

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Speaker 1: not challenge their superior position, but kind of going with

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Speaker 1: like I'm a I'm a big girl too, big boy. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think the key to dealing with the dark triad

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Speaker 1: in your life, whether it's a uh, romantic interest or

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Speaker 1: a boss, is to recognize the traits, you know, and

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Speaker 1: kind of use your own smarts to outplay them. For instance,

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Speaker 1: the Psychologist article points out that, you know, women's biggest

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Speaker 1: downfall when they get involved with a dark triad is

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Speaker 1: to think that they can fix them somehow, And we

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Speaker 1: have to remember that, uh, this is largely a genetic

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Speaker 1: trait Jonathan and others have pointed out, and it's something

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Speaker 1: that you know, you're kind of fighting against nature at

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Speaker 1: this point. But and it's not all just roses for

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Speaker 1: the dark triad either, because like we said, I mean,

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Speaker 1: they're more likely to end up alone at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day. Because there was one study we found

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Speaker 1: that said that being high on the dark triad was

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Speaker 1: related not only to a higher overall incidents would also

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Speaker 1: hire success rates for poaching, but also having been poached

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Speaker 1: and having mates poached in short term relationships, long term affairs,

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Speaker 1: and long term relationships. So the thing is, while we

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Speaker 1: like to say that, oh, nice guys finished last, they

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Speaker 1: really don't. The bad boys might be able to rack

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Speaker 1: up a lot of different sexual partners, but the altruism

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Speaker 1: and the more positive, agreeable qualities are what we're looking

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Speaker 1: for in terms of interpersonal relationships for the long haul.

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Speaker 1: So there you have it. The stereotype kind of proves true. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: bad boys may mess you up for a little while,

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Speaker 1: but eventually it's like tortoise and hair. If you're if

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Speaker 1: you're a good tortoise, just kind of slow and steady

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Speaker 1: taking the right risks. Yeah, we'll find you eventually. Exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you know the whole thing about oh, nice girls

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Speaker 1: fall for for bad boys. From my takeaway from this research, Molly,

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Speaker 1: it's not nice girls, it's naive girls. Just be aware,

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Speaker 1: keep out, keep it, keep a lookout for the signs.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, if you once you're aware that

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Speaker 1: you have a someone's exhibiting a lot of dark triad traits,

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Speaker 1: you might just want to pull the plug and move

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Speaker 1: on down the road yourself. No one needs a Macium

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Speaker 1: Bellian in their life, that's true. A Machiavellian narcissist psychopath, right, true,

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Speaker 1: that's gonna be my new bumper sticker. Yeah, stay away

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Speaker 1: from the dark triad. No dark triads allowed. So at

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Speaker 1: this point, I am so curious to know what you

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Speaker 1: listeners out there are thinking about all this stuff. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure that women you have plenty of stories about bad

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Speaker 1: boys men. I'm sure that you have plenty of stories about,

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Speaker 1: you know, seeing girlfriends being poached by bad boys or

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Speaker 1: or nice guys out there who just you know, might

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Speaker 1: be having a tough time of it. Whatever I want

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Speaker 1: to hear from all of you, email us at Mom's

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Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com. And in the meantime,

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Speaker 1: let's head on to some listener mail. I've got one

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Speaker 1: from Karen, who wrote about the kind of men and

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Speaker 1: women really be friends podcasts I just mentioned. She writes,

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Speaker 1: I'm disappointed that you gave some little credence to the

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Speaker 1: emotional infidelity aspect of this question when it is applied

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Speaker 1: to opposite sex friendships who are in committed relationships. This

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Speaker 1: question isn't just about sex and whether or not men

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Speaker 1: and women can be friends and avoid entering a room

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Speaker 1: and tearing each other's clothes off. Emotional intimacy between opposite

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Speaker 1: sex friends when one or both of them are involved

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Speaker 1: in committed relationships can be extremely damaging. Emotional affairs are

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Speaker 1: very real, very destructive, and deserve the same attention and

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Speaker 1: credence as sexual ones. Alright, well, I've got one here

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Speaker 1: from Sherry, and this is on our podcast about women

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Speaker 1: and guns. She says, I'm a thirty year old listener

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Speaker 1: from the far north of Wisconsin. I'm an avid, competitive shooter.

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Speaker 1: I own more firearms than my husband, and I didn't

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Speaker 1: get into shooting because of fear or any ads that

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Speaker 1: I saw. My father enjoyed shooting, and when I turned

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Speaker 1: ten he started to take me. I'm still judged because

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Speaker 1: I'm a woman, but when these men see me shoot,

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Speaker 1: their complimentary Not to mention, I get marriage proposal very often.

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Speaker 1: My husband says he does pity any person who would

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Speaker 1: try to harm me. He usually adds that I've been

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Speaker 1: known to draw my single action revolver and fire all around,

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Speaker 1: sitting my target consistently in seven seconds, and her fastest

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Speaker 1: time is five point to eight seconds. We're a normal,

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Speaker 1: hard working people. We tell people we have a loud hobby.

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Speaker 1: My challenge you is to take a few shooting lessons

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Speaker 1: at a range or a shooting club, asked to shoot

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Speaker 1: all types of guns, and most people get hooked really quick.

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Speaker 1: Gun sales don't always reflect flear. It's simply fun to shoot.

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Speaker 1: So thank you, Sherry, And you want to end on

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Speaker 1: a reading list real quick? Absolutely, Here's one from aluxus Uh.

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Speaker 1: This summer, she is reading books by Kurt Bonnicket, the

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Speaker 1: book Freakonomics by Stephen Lovett and Stephen J. Dubner, One

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Speaker 1: Hundred Years of Solitude by Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Catch twenty

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Speaker 1: two by Joseph Heller, Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll,

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Speaker 1: Like Woebegon Days by Garrison Keeler, and short stories by

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Speaker 1: Kafka and Lydia Davis. So again, our email is mom

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Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com. If you'd like

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Speaker 1: to send us a letter, we'd love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: You can also follow us on Twitter. We are at

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Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcasts there, and as always, you can check

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Speaker 1: out our blog during the week. It's the Stuff Mom

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Speaker 1: Never Told You blog and it has found at how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. For more on this and thousands

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Speaker 1: of other topics, is that how stuff works dot com.

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Speaker 1: Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on

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