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Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of iHeart Podcasts.

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Speaker 2: What I'm writing I write for myself. It's almost like reading.

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Speaker 2: You kind of have an idea of the story, but

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Speaker 2: the sentences surprise you and say You're getting to read

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Speaker 2: what you're writing in real time. It's a magical experience.

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Speaker 3: Hi, I'm Bob Pittman. Welcome to this episode of Math

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Speaker 3: and Magic. Today we're going to chat with a man who,

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Speaker 3: in his heart is a creative, but he also has

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Speaker 3: the mind and instincts of an entrepreneur. Entrepreneur in the

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Speaker 3: purest sense, he has figured out how to do something

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Speaker 3: he loves, make money from it, and still have control.

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Speaker 3: He's the author of the wildly successful Silo series, which

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Speaker 3: is one of the top series on Apple TV Plus,

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Speaker 3: and from a business perspective, he is one of the

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Speaker 3: pioneers and most successful examples of self publishing. He's Hugh Howie.

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Speaker 3: He grew up in North Carolina and he's also been

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Speaker 3: an adventurer. Attended college but never finished because he kept

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Speaker 3: being lured to the sea. He worked as a bookstore clerk,

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Speaker 3: computer repair person, roofing, but his real passion led him

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Speaker 3: to be a boat captain and then a writer. We're

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Speaker 3: going to dig into all the improbable twist and turns

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Speaker 3: it took. He was a great friend, nice and kind

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Speaker 3: everyone he meets, and is a true adventurer. Hugh, Welcome,

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Speaker 3: Hey Bob.

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Speaker 2: Thanks, So what's the best introduction I've ever had?

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Speaker 3: Okay, well listen. Before we get to the meaty stuff,

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Speaker 3: I want to start off with a feature we do

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Speaker 3: called you in sixty seconds. Ready?

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Speaker 2: Ready?

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Speaker 3: You prefer cats or dogs?

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Speaker 2: Dogs?

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Speaker 3: Early Riser? Night out? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Early Riser?

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Speaker 3: West Coast or East Coast, East Coast, New York City

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Speaker 3: or North Carolina, New York City City or Country Country.

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Speaker 3: Surprisingly coke or pepsi?

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Speaker 2: Oh, coke? Let it be close?

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Speaker 3: Books or movies?

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Speaker 2: Books?

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Speaker 3: Cook or eat out?

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Speaker 2: Eat out?

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Speaker 3: It's about feel a little harder. All time favorite music artist,

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Speaker 3: just for.

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Speaker 2: The length of time and the number of hits them

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Speaker 2: out to go with the Beatles. First job a cook

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Speaker 2: in an Alpeck Steakhouse. Favorite TV show recently it was adolescence.

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Speaker 3: Oh okay, good one. Childhood hero by mom? What did

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Speaker 3: you want to be when you were growing up?

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be a writer.

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Speaker 3: Favorite sport to watch basketball, Favorite.

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Speaker 2: Movie probably Shaw Shake redyption.

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Speaker 3: Secret talent probably billiards.

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Speaker 2: People are surprised, but I can run the table almost anybody.

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's jump in.

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Speaker 2: Hey, that's fun. You could really get to know someone

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Speaker 2: that way.

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Speaker 3: Exactly sixty seconds and we're done. Okay, I got to

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Speaker 3: start with the obvious. Silo, huge, huge hit on Apple.

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Speaker 3: Let's dissect it. It all started with the trilogy, wrote,

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Speaker 3: but start by describing even how you built that trilogy,

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Speaker 3: and also for people who haven't watched it or read it,

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Speaker 3: what it's about in your words, and then let's talk

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Speaker 3: about how it happened.

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Speaker 2: Silo is about the last ten thousand people on Earth.

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Speaker 2: They live in this underground silo, almost like a missile silo,

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Speaker 2: and they've been there for so many generations they've forgotten

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Speaker 2: how they got there or why they're there. And it's

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Speaker 2: a bit of a mystery as a new sheriff starts

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Speaker 2: to unravel the kind of the dark secret behind the silo.

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Speaker 2: And it started with a short story I wrote while

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Speaker 2: I was working in a bookstore in North Carolina, and

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Speaker 2: at the time I didn't think it would be a

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Speaker 2: commercial success. I wrote it as a bit of cathartic writing.

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Speaker 2: I was dealing with the loss of dog, and so

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Speaker 2: I wrote just a really dark story that I thought

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Speaker 2: no one would want to read, and it was only

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Speaker 2: about fifty pages long, and I put it online for

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Speaker 2: ninety nine cents, and within a month it was out

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Speaker 2: selling the six novels that I've written at the time.

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Speaker 2: And pretty soon that short story was making me enough

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Speaker 2: money that I could quit my day job and just

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Speaker 2: work on writing the follow up stories, and those collected

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Speaker 2: became the novel Wool, which all self published, became a

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Speaker 2: New York Times bestselling novel, and got a film deal

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Speaker 2: with Ridley Scott and Agent and all the other improbable

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Speaker 2: things that are not supposed to happen.

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Speaker 3: So we're going to come to that, but I want

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Speaker 3: to go back a little bit into this. Where did

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Speaker 3: the idea or silo come from.

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Speaker 2: There's a few different ideas that kind of merge into one.

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Speaker 2: I was working at a university bookstore at the time

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Speaker 2: that smartphones started taking hold of our attention, and I

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Speaker 2: noticed the kids, who I was a generation apart from,

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Speaker 2: coming through the bookstore. Their view of the world more

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Speaker 2: and more was coming through screens. It's this little window

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Speaker 2: into a world that's not quite real We want to

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Speaker 2: see things that are more titillating or shocking or scary

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Speaker 2: or funny, and so we get an unclear picture of

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Speaker 2: the world. At the same time, I've always been in

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Speaker 2: in a philosophy. When I was looking at Plato's allegory

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Speaker 2: of the cave, where we don't see the true forms

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Speaker 2: of things, we see shadows on the wall cast by

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Speaker 2: fire that's behind us. Let's just started thinking that maybe

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Speaker 2: these screens are the new cave allegory. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is I had sailed to Cuba a few years prior

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Speaker 2: on a friend's boat that I was working on, and

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Speaker 2: what I found in Cuba was very different than what

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Speaker 2: I'd been told would be there. And this is related

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Speaker 2: to the other point that in order to understand the world,

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Speaker 2: you really have to go out and see it and

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Speaker 2: experience it. And so the silo is kind of born

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Speaker 2: in the idea that these people, with a limited view

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Speaker 2: of the world through this singular screen on the top

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Speaker 2: level would have to piece together what the world's like.

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Speaker 2: And if they were shown bad news all the time,

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Speaker 2: would they lose the courage to go out and see

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Speaker 2: the world for themselves. And so the hero of our

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Speaker 2: story is someone who's courageous and to think that the

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Speaker 2: outside world might be better than we're led to believe.

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Speaker 3: So where did you hit on the idea of it

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Speaker 3: being a silo.

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that's just being a kid of the eighties,

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Speaker 2: Like I grew up terrified. We used to do fallout drills,

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Speaker 2: like you'd hide under your desk, which I guess somehow

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Speaker 2: this desk were armored enough to keep us safe from

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Speaker 2: a nuclear blast. The thing that I was drilled into

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Speaker 2: at a very young and impressionable age was that at

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Speaker 2: any moment, Russia is going to drop bombs on us.

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Speaker 2: And all the movies you have to have a bad

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Speaker 2: guy in film, and back then there was always the Russians,

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Speaker 2: and of course we had missiles aimed at them, So

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Speaker 2: missile silos were kind of a big deal to my

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Speaker 2: childhood and other popular culture. There was a video game

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Speaker 2: when I was a kid called GoldenEye, a Nintendo sixty

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Speaker 2: four game, and one of the game levels takes place

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Speaker 2: inside of a missile silo at the spiral staircase. And

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Speaker 2: that's why stories have a lot of the same flavors.

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Speaker 2: We're not just inspired by each other, but we grew

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Speaker 2: up through experience in the same kind of events.

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Speaker 3: So very dystopian. Is that tied in any way to

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Speaker 3: your love of the sea and being out there in

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Speaker 3: sort of solitary moments nothing but you in the water.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent and the wave they're linked is probably

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Speaker 2: not obvious. But when we look at all the disaster

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Speaker 2: films of the end of the world stuff that we

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Speaker 2: see in fiction today, people think that this is because

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Speaker 2: folks are losing hope or something, and that's not the case.

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Speaker 2: Our primary story engine for millennia has been the survival story.

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Speaker 2: If you look at Sir Dauwaine and the Green Knight

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Speaker 2: or the Iliad of the Odyssey, you have these stories

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Speaker 2: where someone is away from their friends and family and

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Speaker 2: technology and civilization and they're trying to survive. So the

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Speaker 2: precursor to these stories would have been Lost in the

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Speaker 2: wood stories, which we have so many legends and fairy

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Speaker 2: tales that show us where those stories came from, because

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Speaker 2: when we were tribal, the woods were the scary place

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Speaker 2: and there were things in there that would eat you.

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Speaker 2: If you look at the story progression of the years,

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Speaker 2: like we went to sea and now you had lots

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Speaker 2: of seafaring tales, you had castaway stories, deserted island stories.

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Speaker 2: We started writing Westerns as we pushed beyond civilization into

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Speaker 2: the West. Once we kind of covered the globe, we

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Speaker 2: started writing about being lost in space, and so you

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Speaker 2: can see that we're telling the same story, which is like,

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Speaker 2: how would we survive without our people, without our tribe,

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Speaker 2: without our tools, and apocalypse stories are the only way

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Speaker 2: to really tell that without rewriting history. We have to

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Speaker 2: imagine a future in which our tribe is gone, our

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Speaker 2: civilization's gone, our tools are set back, and how do

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Speaker 2: we survive in a fraud and liminal space. Being at

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Speaker 2: sea made me think of like deserted island stories. But

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Speaker 2: when you're writing science fiction, you're telling the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Orth it just becomes the deserted island.

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Speaker 3: So you started with fifty pages, how did it go

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Speaker 3: from fifty pages to wall to the trilogy?

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Speaker 2: Because of Amazon reader reviews. I was working on a

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Speaker 2: different novel when the short story blew up. And one

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Speaker 2: of the advantages of self publishing is you can hit

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Speaker 2: refresh on your Amazon Kendall dashboard and sees sales in

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Speaker 2: real time. Someone buys a book, and I had refreshed

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Speaker 2: the sale pops up. In traditional publishing, it might take

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Speaker 2: six months to a year to find out that something

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Speaker 2: is happening. So I'm sitting at the bookstore thinking about

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Speaker 2: the novel that I should be writing, and I noticed

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Speaker 2: the sales picking up on the short story. You know,

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Speaker 2: you don't get a lot of reviews. You can sell

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Speaker 2: a thousand books and only get like maybe one or

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Speaker 2: two reviews. It's just not something everybody does. But reviews

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Speaker 2: started popping up on this book at an alarming clip.

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Speaker 2: They were all five stars. The only thing negative people

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Speaker 2: had to say it was that it was too short

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Speaker 2: what happens next? And so I'm reading this feedback. I've

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Speaker 2: never had an audience clamoring for a sequel for me

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Speaker 2: other than my sister and my mom, you know, wanting

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Speaker 2: to the next book. And I started thinking, well, a

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Speaker 2: bit of a spoiler, but it's only fifty pages in.

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Speaker 2: So here you go. At the end of that short story,

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Speaker 2: all the main characters are dead, or they appear dead anyway,

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Speaker 2: and so you're like, Okay, you want more in this world,

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Speaker 2: but everyone that I set up you to care about

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Speaker 2: is off the page now. So I had this really

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Speaker 2: fun challenge and a unique situation where people were asking

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Speaker 2: for more story and there's really no more story to write.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't planned anymore, so I had to sit down

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Speaker 2: and figure out, Okay, who's the bigger story going to

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Speaker 2: be about? And I came up with Juliete Nichols, who

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Speaker 2: is easily become the most beloved character I've written over

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Speaker 2: twenty novels and stories. So once I had this character,

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Speaker 2: I could plot out, Okay, it's going to take five

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Speaker 2: stories to tell this in a novel, and I serialized that.

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Speaker 2: I released them as I was writing them, and within

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Speaker 2: two or three months, these five stories were all at

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Speaker 2: the top of the science fiction bestseller lists on the Amazon.

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Speaker 2: I credit it to these initial readers who were asking

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Speaker 2: me to write more, giving me positive feedback, and that

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Speaker 2: reinforcement gave me the courage to plow forward.

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Speaker 3: When you're writing, do you think about who that reader is?

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Speaker 3: And I know you've met a lot of the readers.

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Speaker 3: Are they who you imagine they would be?

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Speaker 2: No to both. When I'm writing, I write for myself.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like reading. You kind of have an idea

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Speaker 2: of the story, but the sentences surprise you and say

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Speaker 2: you're getting to read what you're writing in real time.

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Speaker 2: It's a magical experience. Once you've started playing around with

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Speaker 2: fiction writing, all of a sudden, characters will do or

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Speaker 2: say things that you didn't plan on, or you'll come

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Speaker 2: up with a joke in the moment that makes you laugh.

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Speaker 2: So you're creating and consuming in this little feedback loop.

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Speaker 2: It's just delightful. So I concentrate on myself as the

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Speaker 2: reader when I'm writing. When I think about what readers expect,

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Speaker 2: I usually use that as a tool against them. You know,

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Speaker 2: they want this to happen, so I'm going to give

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Speaker 2: that to them. They expect this to happen, so I'm

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Speaker 2: going to tease them that something else might happen, or

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Speaker 2: send the story in a different direction. Like having a

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Speaker 2: feedback from your audience allows you to subvert what they

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Speaker 2: think the story might do. So I found that very valuable.

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Speaker 2: But I try not to write with the thought that

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Speaker 2: a million people might read this, because that's paralyzing.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk a little bit about the self publishing aspect.

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Speaker 3: Let's start of the business. I mean, you've had just

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Speaker 3: a wild success with self publishing. Tell us a little

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Speaker 3: bit about what the publishing business look like when you

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Speaker 3: started all this and what self publishing was and how

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Speaker 3: you figured it out.

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Speaker 2: Self publishing was very different. When I started writing, I

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Speaker 2: was told by everybody that if I self published, it

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Speaker 2: would be the end of my career. Prior to the

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Speaker 2: rise of kindle and print on demand, an amazing paperback

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Speaker 2: technology where you can print a book the moment it's ordered,

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Speaker 2: it's printed and shipped out the same day, so you

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Speaker 2: don't have a warehouse. You don't have you not sell

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Speaker 2: them out of your garage or the trunk of your car.

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Speaker 2: So prior to two thousand and nine, self publishing was

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Speaker 2: often called vanity publishing. You paid someone a lot of

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Speaker 2: money to create cover art at it and produce a book,

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Speaker 2: and they made money. The chances of you ever selling

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Speaker 2: enough books to pay that debt off is nil. Almost

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Speaker 2: when I started writing, the kindle and print on demand

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Speaker 2: came around, and all of a sudden, it was actually

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Speaker 2: free to publish, Like it costs nothing to make a

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Speaker 2: book available as an ebook, and even a print on

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Speaker 2: demand physical book, even an audiobook can be done with

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Speaker 2: no cost, and that had never happened before. So I

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Speaker 2: published my first book with a small press, but they

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Speaker 2: were using self publishing tools to publish, and I realized

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Speaker 2: this tools are available to me as well.

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Speaker 3: You mean you went to them, you thought they were

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Speaker 3: a regular publisher, But what they were really doing was

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Speaker 3: just self publishing exactly.

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Speaker 2: And that's what most small presses do, and there's no

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Speaker 2: scandal there. They are providing a service. Like not everyone

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Speaker 2: wants to learn how to paginate a book. Trede cover Art,

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Speaker 2: do all their own editing, marketing, all that stuff. Some

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Speaker 2: people just want to write a book and hand it

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Speaker 2: to someone and let them keep most of the money.

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Speaker 2: But while they were publishing, I thought the interior layout

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Speaker 2: wasn't quite up to par. And I'd been a bookseller

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Speaker 2: for years, an avid reader since I was a little kid,

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Speaker 2: and so I just love the craft of books. And

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Speaker 2: while they were paginating the book, I would get the

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Speaker 2: pages back and say, man, I think I would spend

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Speaker 2: more time on it than they will, and I'll do better.

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Speaker 2: So I got a copy of end Design, which is

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Speaker 2: the industry standard for laying out books, and started learning

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Speaker 2: how to use it. And when I sent them an

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Speaker 2: interior file, they were like, yeah, we'll use your because

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Speaker 2: it was so much better. They gave me some cover

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Speaker 2: art that was just like stock art that you buy

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Speaker 2: off a five dollars kind of immager website with some

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Speaker 2: texts on the front. It just looks so self published,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I can dabble in photoshop and

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Speaker 2: come up with something on my own. And the cover

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Speaker 2: art that I came up with they liked more, so

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Speaker 2: I was like, man, I can actually do all the

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Speaker 2: things that they're doing. So when they send me the

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Speaker 2: contract for the second book, I said, actually, I'm going

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Speaker 2: to self publish it, and I would love to buy

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Speaker 2: the rights back to my first book. And I had

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Speaker 2: a great relationship with them, so they allowed it to happen.

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Speaker 2: But I got kind of a hurt email from my

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Speaker 2: editor who said this would be the biggest mistake I

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Speaker 2: ever made. And that was the general consensus. To get

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Speaker 2: to your original question, what was the state of self

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Speaker 2: publishing at the time. I was hounded out of writing

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Speaker 2: forums for suggesting that self publishing might be viable with

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Speaker 2: these new tools. Everyone told me I was crazy, but

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Speaker 2: it just sense to me. I wasn't trying to get rich,

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Speaker 2: but I thought if I sell ten copies, it'd be

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Speaker 2: great to make one hundred bucks instead of ten bucks,

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Speaker 2: and pretty soon that's what I was doing. Like I

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Speaker 2: was making enough every month to pay a power bill

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Speaker 2: or something, which not every hobby. You know, most hobbies

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Speaker 2: cost money. This was a hobby that had money flowing

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Speaker 2: in and it just grew.

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Speaker 3: So you started with a publisher, then you went self publishing. Today,

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Speaker 3: I know you also have publishers. How does that work

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Speaker 3: with yourself publishing?

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Speaker 2: I never thought I would go with a publisher because

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Speaker 2: by the time I was making enough money to live

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Speaker 2: off my writing, they couldn't offer me more than what

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Speaker 2: I was making. And every time they made an offer

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Speaker 2: it was something that I might have accepted six months before.

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Speaker 2: So they were always lagging. As my sales were increasing,

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Speaker 2: their offers were coming in too low. So I remember

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Speaker 2: when I got a fifty thousand dollars offer for one book.

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Speaker 2: At that time, I was like, I was making that

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Speaker 2: in a month on my own sales, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: you're going to take lifetime rights for a book that

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Speaker 2: earned that much last month, And none of that made

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Speaker 2: sense to me. And there was worldwide rights and all

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Speaker 2: the ebook and all the print and audio and everything,

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Speaker 2: And then six months later someone would offer me six figures,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, that's what it made last month. And

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Speaker 2: then we got to where publishers were offered me seven figures,

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Speaker 2: and I was like, I've already made that. And these

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00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 2: were all incredible deals and I would have jumped at

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Speaker 2: had they come six months earlier. So that was kind

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Speaker 2: of my advantage. I knew what I was making before

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Speaker 2: they knew the potential of this series.

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Speaker 3: How do you do it today with the publishers.

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Speaker 2: I got this amazing email one day from my agent,

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Speaker 2: Kristin Nelson, and I was getting calls and emails from

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Speaker 2: agents at the time because I had a book on

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Speaker 2: the New York Times list that was not represented by anybody,

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Speaker 2: and Kristen sent me an email then the subject said

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Speaker 2: you probably don't need an agent, however, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: this is different from all the other agents were all

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Speaker 2: calling me and saying like, okay, first thing you should

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Speaker 2: know is I want to take fifteen percent. And I'm like, wait,

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Speaker 2: who is this? What's happening? But Kristin was like, you

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Speaker 2: probably don't even need an agent. She is so so

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Speaker 2: savvy and she understood what was happening even before I did.

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Speaker 2: About the industry. She said, you should just keep doing

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Speaker 2: what you're doing in the US. But I can take

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Speaker 2: this book overseas and get you deals that you're not

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Speaker 2: even thinking about. And I can get you a co

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Speaker 2: agent to help in Asia, one in Europe, one in Hollywood,

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00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,120
Speaker 2: and we'll work our butts off to you know, bring

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Speaker 2: this story to more people, and you get most of

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Speaker 2: the money for all the work we do. And that

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Speaker 2: was the second best decision ever made in my life,

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Speaker 2: was signing with Kristen. We started getting really interesting offers

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Speaker 2: from publishers by saying no to everything else. So after

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Speaker 2: saying no to a seven figure deal, Simon and Schuster

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00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,080
Speaker 2: came in gave us what we had wanted, which was

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Speaker 2: a print only deal for a limited term of license,

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Speaker 2: so they could do the print book for five years,

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Speaker 2: and after that we get all rights back, which had

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Speaker 2: never been done before. And it hasn't been duplicated much since, unfortunately.

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Speaker 2: And I've done three or four deals now on the

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Speaker 2: same series of books, and I keep getting the rights back.

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Speaker 2: If this is the way it should be done, the

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Speaker 2: way it's done overseas. All my foreign deals have limited

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Speaker 2: terms of license, and so you can reevaluate how the

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Speaker 2: book is doing and what it's worth, and make decisions

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Speaker 2: down the road that makes sense for both parties.

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Speaker 3: I want to close out the sil of piece a

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Speaker 3: little bit. How close is the TV series to your books?

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Speaker 3: How true?

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Speaker 2: Pretty close? In the modern world of adaptations, like this

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00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,880
Speaker 2: is about as good as it gets. It's so much

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Speaker 2: better than what I imagined because I'm just one one

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Speaker 2: person who's slightly creative. When we built the show with

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00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,119
Speaker 2: two hundred people who were massively creative. So we have

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Speaker 2: someone who's just thinking about fabrics, and someone who's just

387
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 2: thinking about pat and someone designing furniture and doing signage,

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Speaker 2: and an architect, Like it's so addedive. Having that many

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00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 2: creative people come together with a common goal is much

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Speaker 2: better than me just putting some words on a page.

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Speaker 3: More of math and magic right after this quick break,

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Speaker 3: Welcome back to math and Magic. Let's hear more from

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Speaker 3: my conversation with you, Howie. Let's go back in time.

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Speaker 3: You were a child of the seventies, eighties, a little

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Speaker 3: bit of the nineties. You were born in Charlotte, North Carolina.

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Speaker 3: Can you paint the picture of those times in your childhood,

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Speaker 3: what it felt like, what you were exposed to what

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Speaker 3: influenced you.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in the country. My dad was a

400
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 2: third generation farmer corn and soweetpean and wheat before I

401
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,520
Speaker 2: was born, some tobacco and cotton, and we had just

402
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 2: a massive amount of acreage and were upper middle class.

403
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,680
Speaker 2: But I never really felt like it, Like we lived

404
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: at one hundred and fifty year old house and you

405
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,159
Speaker 2: worked for what you had. My mom was a school teacher,

406
00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: actually had her for math when I was in high school.

407
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: My parents divorced when I was eight. My mom raised

408
00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: three kids pretty much on her own, with stepdads along

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00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 2: the way at times for its three jobs to make

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00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 2: everything work out for us. And I feel like I

411
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: had a great childhood, Like I just was skateboarding all

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Speaker 2: the time and listened to amazing music. The eighties and

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Speaker 2: nineties were epic times to be into tunes.

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Speaker 3: Were you a good student?

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00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 2: I got good grades. I was a pain in the butt,

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Speaker 2: you know. I was a voracious reader, and I was reading,

417
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: like under my desk in school. I would cut class

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00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: to go send the library and read books, and not

419
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Speaker 2: just novels, but I would like read, you know, physics books.

420
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Speaker 2: And I would walk around with a mirk manual or

421
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 2: a Grave's anatomy, and just like study bones and stuff,

422
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,239
Speaker 2: it's not something to brag about. I realize now, like

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00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,440
Speaker 2: being a little bit ahead doesn't help you because we're

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00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,200
Speaker 2: all in the same place now. I don't know anything

425
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 2: more than anybody else. We all catch up with each other.

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Speaker 2: But if you're like two years ahead in school, it

427
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: just makes you disruptive to the other kids. It makes

428
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 2: you bored. And so I don't see myself as a

429
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:22,479
Speaker 2: good student.

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Speaker 3: Were you athletic I was?

431
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 2: I played soccer, ran track, ran cross country. If I

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00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: saw a ball in the air, I ran over to

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00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 2: introduce myself. If I go to the beach to this

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Speaker 2: day and I see a frizevi or football, or if

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00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 2: I see a basketball like, I want to join in.

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Speaker 4: So where did Bali come from? Where did Bali come from?

437
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,119
Speaker 4: Bally came from chess. I was playing chess in Charleston

438
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 4: where I went to college, and one of my favorite

439
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:52,400
Speaker 4: opponents would come in and just kick my butt and

440
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 4: he would sometimes sit and do the splits while we're playing,

441
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,479
Speaker 4: and I was like, what is going on? And he

442
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 4: was playing on his lunch break and he was the

443
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 4: principal dancer at Charleston Ballet Theater and he was stretching.

444
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 4: He was sore from doing ballet all morning, and we

445
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 4: became best friends, and I started learning ballet just by

446
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,240
Speaker 4: hanging out.

447
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,120
Speaker 2: During bar class. Years later, when I was working on yachts,

448
00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: they came down to Miami and performed The Nutcracker at

449
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 2: the Jackie Gleason Theater and the girl who plays the

450
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,719
Speaker 2: maid was sick, and so my friend Scott was like,

451
00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 2: Hugh knows enough he could jump in there play the butler.

452
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,119
Speaker 2: So next thing I know, I'm like putting on a

453
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 2: dance bell, which is basically a jockstrap slash g string

454
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,239
Speaker 2: for men, and dance tights and learning the moves like

455
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 2: right before the curtain opened.

456
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 3: And it's always great at a late night party to

457
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 3: pull out a ballet move and impresses people. So the

458
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 3: sailing has been such an important part of your life?

459
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,000
Speaker 3: Where'd that come from?

460
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: Hugely important. When I was a kid, there was a

461
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 2: family beach house in North Carolina that everyone in the

462
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 2: family shared. We had of like two weeks every summer,

463
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: and the first thing I would do when I would

464
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,160
Speaker 2: get out there, and I think I was probably eight

465
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 2: or nine years old. When I started doing this is

466
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 2: to drag this sunfish sailboat down to the sound behind

467
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 2: the house. And these are small boats. Even one of

468
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 2: us could pick this up with one hand, you know.

469
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,440
Speaker 2: But at the time I was pulling the Titanic down

470
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: to the shore side. And when I pushed offshore and

471
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: had this boat to myself and I could go wherever

472
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 2: I wanted, I was instantly hooked. I started thinking about

473
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 2: sailing around the world by the time I was like ten.

474
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,960
Speaker 2: By the time I went to college and purposely picked

475
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: up place that was by the water, I bought a

476
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:43,439
Speaker 2: boat to live on, twenty seven foot sloop, and I

477
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: became my home while I was in school. By the

478
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 2: time I finished my junior year, I decided to just

479
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,479
Speaker 2: drop out and go sail around the world and not

480
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,240
Speaker 2: finish college. And that's set my life off in a

481
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: very strange direction.

482
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: So that's that sort of ties into life philosophy. The

483
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: hard rock cas they had, they may still have it.

484
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 3: The slogan there was love all, Serve all. When I

485
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: think of you, I sometimes think of that slogan. How

486
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 3: do you view this journey of life? I think most

487
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 3: of our mutual friends would describe you as this super nice,

488
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: always there for you, interested in you person. How does

489
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 3: this fit into the philosophy? What is that a part of.

490
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 2: That's very flattering. I wish if this wasn't true, But

491
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: I do think that a lot of our happiness is

492
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,720
Speaker 2: built in. It's hard to change, and I think I

493
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 2: was born lucky with a happy demeanor. I've had really

494
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 2: good people around me in my life. Whenever I'm around

495
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: my friends, that's what I fell out the luckiest. That's

496
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,199
Speaker 2: not my writing success or financial success. It's like when

497
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: I'm hanging out with the people that I get to

498
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 2: be friends with, That's when I'm like, how did I

499
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 2: win this lottery? And those two influences just to be

500
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 2: born with a good attitude and be surrounded by great

501
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: people and feeling so full all the time that the

502
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: best thing that I could do is spill some of

503
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 2: that out to other people. You know, when your cups

504
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 2: full and there's more still coming in, it's got to

505
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 2: go somewhere. And I've got to the point where my

506
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 2: greatest joy is seeing like a friend succeed because you know,

507
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,399
Speaker 2: I've got what I had ever dreamed of in life,

508
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 2: and you've known me since I've met my wife and

509
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: fall in love. But that attitude, which has always been

510
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 2: a part of me, has gone one hundred acts by

511
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 2: finding my soulmate and someone who is the same in

512
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 2: a lot of these ways. Sharing a life together is

513
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: just like the biggest thrill.

514
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 3: Let's talk about that for a minute, because I happen

515
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 3: to know your future plan is. I hope this is

516
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 3: okay to reveal. This is you're building a boat and

517
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 3: then you and your wife are just going to sail

518
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 3: around the world. Can you tell us about that.

519
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 2: I've done this before. I built a boat ten years

520
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: ago and took off. The only thing missing in my

521
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: life then was the perfect sailing partner. And my wife,

522
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 2: Shay is a huge adventurer. She's a pilot, she flies seaplane,

523
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: she's a sailor. Adventure is her north star. As a

524
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: matter of fact, we fell in love on a boat

525
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 2: trip in the Arctic looking for polar bears, two weeks,

526
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 2: sharing a little bunk and just thrive in that condition.

527
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: And Shae was the one recently who was like, let's

528
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: get a boat, Let's go do this again. So we

529
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 2: moved to Florida to be by the boat shows, and

530
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: look at more boats. We looked at dozens, and one

531
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: day we stepped aboard a boat in Fort Lauderdale that

532
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: we absolutely loved. So we ordered one, and it's being

533
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 2: built now and we'll launch in July in France. We'll

534
00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: get aboard and start getting it ready for the South Pacific,

535
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 2: the really remote lifestyle and take off. It wouldn't be

536
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 2: for everybody, but it is for us.

537
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 3: Let's jump before we end the episode. Let me get

538
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 3: your views on a couple of things. With the constant

539
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: connection over social living on these screens, do you worry

540
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: that we're stunting the creativity and imaginations of the generations

541
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 3: growing up with it.

542
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 2: I think it'll be a mix of both.

543
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:14,679
Speaker 4: You know.

544
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 2: You think about the people who built stone hinge in

545
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: the Pyramids and created early calendars and came up with

546
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 2: mathematical insights. Like we're creative, smart people and have been

547
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 2: for hundreds of thousands of years, even before we took

548
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 2: the kind of form that we're in now. So our

549
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: cleverness has always been there. The tools that you and

550
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: I grew up with allowed us to unleash that creativity

551
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: in new ways, like getting cameras, getting digital cameras, having

552
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: access to a computer, being able to write and edit

553
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,239
Speaker 2: with a word processor instead of having to do a

554
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,239
Speaker 2: cuneiform tablet or on a scroll or long hand. So

555
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 2: the technology that we grew up with, there was resistance

556
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: to those things when they came around, Like was it

557
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: really writing if you typed it on a typewriter? Was

558
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: it really writing? It didn't a computer and you were

559
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 2: just copying and pasting instead of rewriting. What do they

560
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,719
Speaker 2: do to your creativity to have these tools? So I

561
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: do think there's extra creativity that comes from limitations, and

562
00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 2: I think that a lot of our creativity comes from

563
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 2: quiet time where we're not consuming but just contemplating. But

564
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: those were problems before the smartphone revolution and the Internet.

565
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: I think what I worry more about is what we

566
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: will do with that creativity. I think we're losing some

567
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 2: of the best parts of our empathy and our compassion.

568
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: I think people are getting a little too hardened in

569
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: their ideas instead of changing their minds and becoming new

570
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: people and upgrading themselves. So I don't think creativity will suffer,

571
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: but I do think that we are suffering from our

572
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: relationship with technology these days. I think we crave a

573
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: simpler life, but it's not one that we know how

574
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: to choose, because we tend to not make decisions like that.

575
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 2: We just gobble whatever's in front of us, instead of

576
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: asking ourselves, how's this going to impact me? And to

577
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 2: what degrees should I accept and reject different tools and

578
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: options atomy.

579
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, you and I were sitting at a conference last

580
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 3: week and someone put this chart up on the screen,

581
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: and the chart showed how young people they had a

582
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 3: couple like I think it was three variables like what

583
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 3: do I feel like? That were sort of symptoms of depression.

584
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 3: And it was sort of stable until about twenty fifteen,

585
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,720
Speaker 3: and then it just took a turn up into the

586
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 3: right and has been continuing since. And as you know,

587
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: you and I discussed there, it was the moment, not

588
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: so much of social or the phone. It was the

589
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 3: moment the algorithms took over and instead of seeing posts

590
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 3: from my friend, I saw things the algorithm wanted me

591
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 3: to see that may or may not have been good

592
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: for me.

593
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: I think you nail the analysis of that. We'll figure

594
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: it out, and this will be a speed bump, but

595
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 2: we tend to figure things out by steering from one

596
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 2: ditch to the other instead of navigating down the road rationally.

597
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 3: Before we end, I have to ask you one question.

598
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 3: If you could go back in time, what advice would

599
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: you have for your twenty one year old self?

600
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 2: Oh, man, I know exactly the conversation I would have.

601
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 2: I would tell my twenty one year old self that

602
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: the person for me and whom I'm for is out

603
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 2: there and we will meet and we will spend the

604
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 2: best parts of our life together. And don't worry about

605
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: that it's coming. Trust the process.

606
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 3: It's beautiful, Hugh. We end each episode because this is

607
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 3: math and magic stories from the frontiers and marketing. And

608
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: the idea of math and magic is it is the

609
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,479
Speaker 3: combination of the analytical, the math, and the creative the

610
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 3: magic that really makes great businesses, great ideas, great marketing successes.

611
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 3: Who would you say gets your shout out for being

612
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: the best math person, the analytical person, and who gets

613
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 3: it for being the most creative that's on the magic

614
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 3: side of it.

615
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: Paul de Rock would be my favorite mathematician of all time.

616
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 2: Very strange brain, super literal, the kind of guy. If

617
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 2: you ask him about the weather at dinner, it would

618
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: literally leave the building and go check it out and

619
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 2: come back and see what he's not there for the

620
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 2: small talk, you know, an absolutely brilliant guy. But it

621
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: predicted a lot of things that we would find later

622
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: in theoretical physics and found it just in the math

623
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: for magic, a literal magician. My favorite magician is David

624
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 2: Kwang because he's a good friend and what he can

625
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 2: do with language and crosswords in addition to magic is

626
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 2: just amazing. But for creating magic, mutual friend of ours

627
00:32:56,080 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 2: Michael Benneville his company, which they create experiences and bespoke

628
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 2: little gifts and surprises. But the things that they come

629
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: up with, to me are pure magic and the best way.

630
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 2: It's like the technology of love. And so he's an

631
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: inspiration to me for his solutions to unusual problems.

632
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 3: But then it's a footnote. Michael Bennival designed most of

633
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 3: the iHeart Media's office space, and I met him when

634
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: he designed our camp burning Man. Yeah, it's creativity that

635
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 3: runs with the real span. Hugh, you have been wildly

636
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: successful building a life that works for you and allows

637
00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,239
Speaker 3: you to be who you want to be and who

638
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: you are. Congratulations through all your success. Congratulations bother me

639
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: on silo every time I turn on the TV and

640
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 3: I see it was number one, I go wow, go

641
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: for it to you and thanks for sharing your stories

642
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 3: and insights today.

643
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Bob, It's a pleasure talking to

644
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: you always.

645
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 3: Here are a few things I picked up from my

646
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: conversation with Hugh. One, it's possible to forge your own path.

647
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 3: He realized that he was capable of doing a lot

648
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 3: of the work traditionally handled by publishers. He decided to

649
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 3: prove it even though few thought he could pull it off.

650
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 3: Trusting Scott and having confidence in his own skills led

651
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 3: him to disrupt an entire industry and find a great

652
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 3: deal of success along the way. So for alliance could

653
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 3: be risky, but sometimes it truly pays off. Two. Saying

654
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: no can actually open doors. This goes against traditional wisdom

655
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 3: to be a yes man and see what comes. Hugh

656
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 3: said no to almost every offer that came his way

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00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: from publishers. Knowing your worth can put the pressure on

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Speaker 3: others to create more interesting deals and opportunities. Three, a

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00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 3: common goal allows creativity to thrive. You may have broken

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00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 3: barriers by remaining an independent publisher, but he doesn't deny

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Speaker 3: the power of collaboration. Developing a show for Apple TV

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00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 3: taught him that incredible things can happen when many minds

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Speaker 3: come together. Once you find a team that's the right fifth,

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Speaker 3: allowing people specialties to shine will elevate any project. I'm

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Speaker 3: Bob Pittman. Thanks for listening. That's it for today's episode.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to Math and Magic, a

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Speaker 1: production of iHeart Podcasts. The show is created and hosted

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00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 1: by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to Sidney Rosenbloom for booking

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Speaker 1: and wrangling our wonderful talent, which is no small feat.

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Speaker 1: The Math and Magic team is Jessica Crimechitch and Baheed Fraser.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Ali Perry and Nikki Etoor. Until

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Speaker 1: next time,