WEBVTT - Ep. 364: Physics and Fatality 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast, 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:23.360 you can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.840 versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:35.440 for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. All right, 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:37.839 everybody joined the day by by your honest We tell 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:41.199 us I haven't seen someone in my heart aches, you 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:45.000 haven't seen me so long. You introduced me like a guest. 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:48.640 The hell where you been? Dude? We went? It was 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:51.000 very abrupt. I was thinking about that the other day. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:54.680 We hunt used to hang out every day like brothers, 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.400 like nuts on a dog. Then something changed. They were like, ah, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:01.080 you gotta do your and show Yohanny. And the next 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:05.040 thing you know, it's been months, nearly a phone call. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.600 I don't even know where he's at. I feel like 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.800 I do more to keep in touch, though, because remember, 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:11.000 like I asked, if you want to come get some 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.479 fish and stuff like that, Yeah, you can steal fish 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:18.080 out of the freezer here, did you mystery? Well, listen, 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.560 we're bringing in Uh, we haven't found him yet, but 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:22.560 we're we got some hot leads. On we're bringing into 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:25.880 polygraph Examiner, and you're the first guy getting polygraph Chester. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.880 There's a literal bounty posted for this. We're going to 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.200 bring in a polygraph and I'm gonna start peeling people 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:35.600 in here, and we're gonna have a guy right on 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.000 air polygraphing people. I can tell you this much. You 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.400 start out with some softballs. You're like where you from? Chester, 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:45.720 because it sets like a little baseline right, and then 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.000 you get into the stuff like, so did you put 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:52.240 the freezer the where's the cooler? Chester? I don't I 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:54.200 don't know where the cooler is. It could be that 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.440 one sitting right that was empty sitting in there. We're 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.280 gonna get to it. It's so bad for the person 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:06.160 that accidentally took that film accidentally. I got another way. 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:09.280 I'm gonna trick people into festing up too, because there 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:15.120 was some baracouta in there. What had my baracouter? I 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.760 froze the whole baracouter to experiment with it. That you 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:21.560 told me to keep the barracouta in my freezer first spencer, 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:25.680 so we didn't lose the baracout No glad to pursue 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:30.280 that Glad, I didn't pursue that line of investigation. We'll 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.240 find out. I got my eyes on your chester because 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:35.639 the polygraph examiner is gonna probably want to talk to you, 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:37.120 and we're gonna talk to him about how to lead 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.359 an investigation. We're probably gonna try to bring in someone 0:02:39.400 --> 0:02:41.680 who deals with sex crimes. But what do you think? 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.520 What do you think I did? What would you think? Like? 0:02:46.720 --> 0:02:49.000 I don't eat fish, so why would I take it? 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.880 Because if if we were conducting, if we if we 0:02:51.960 --> 0:02:56.200 brought detectives in, they'd probably first talk to you. I'm 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:58.640 just guessing us that's Paul Lewis. W'd be like, he's 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:02.799 just space Cannady has idea what happened before we get 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.280 into our main He's not actually our main guest. Oh 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:07.520 you were hunting up in Alaska. We didn't talk about 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:11.160 that yet. No, Yeah, with Jordan Bud we're hunting cariboo. 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.880 It was fun. It was great fun bears. We saw 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:18.680 one sal with a couple of cubs, same thing like 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.520 we saw last time, like super blonde, like mega fuzzy. 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.760 You know, even at two miles you can see the sALS, 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:29.000 you know for blowing in the wind and the cubs 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.000 had they been by themselves. You just said, oh, there's 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.600 two small black bears. Huh, yeah, I remember we saw 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.680 that when we're on that sheet punk and uh yeah, 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.280 one wolf try to buy a camp, but maybe hundred 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:44.760 fifty yards and uh, but we do an alder you 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:47.080 pulled and fling one out there on them. No, we 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:50.040 just had our bows and arrows. We had a rifle. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:54.000 Maybe we would have. But it was good until we 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:57.080 had two good days of cariboo action. And then the 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.760 cariboo faucet got turned off. The turn left right or 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:01.680 something them. Yeah, do you think you were at the 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.960 end of the herd swung different directions that early. I 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.400 learned a lot about caribou movement because we actually got 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.680 to talk to the local biologists right before we flew out. 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.440 He stopped by it and chit chatted, and uh that 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.240 early there is no real migration. And in general, that 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.680 forty mile herd doesn't have like I always thought it 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:23.160 was a very uh sort I guess, like a linear 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:28.359 east to west movement. It's not. It's a circular movement 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:32.200 that sometimes goes counterclockwise, sometimes goes clockwise, and they happen 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:35.480 to go into Canada and back into the Alaska, you know, 0:04:35.520 --> 0:04:38.520 as they do this movement, but the earlier in the season, 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.680 the more spread out they are, and the more they're 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:45.000 just smaller groups and just going other different directions. And 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.320 you've always I've always heard how erratic caribou can be, 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.359 and we've kind of seen erratic movement on the hunts 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.760 that we've been on together. But I mean, this was 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.520 seriously like watching them and we didn't have any bugs. 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.800 I'll preface it with that, like super cold night the 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:01.960 for night we got there, and so really no bugs 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:04.919 the entire week, so it wasn't bugs. But you'd just 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:09.599 be watching a caribou just moving let's say straight east, hypothetically, 0:05:10.680 --> 0:05:14.040 stops and feeds for ten fifteen minutes, picks up his head, 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:18.839 turns nine degrees, and sprints two yards. He's not getting 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:21.240 bugs on him, no, and then stops and feeds a 0:05:21.279 --> 0:05:23.440 little bit, and maybe he stops for thirty seconds and 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:25.719 pulls the shame ship again, or he stops for anyone 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.200 that I always thought it like he's just getting clear 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.279 of his flies. I mean, just like maddening to the 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.000 point where you're like, well, we're gonna put a stock 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:38.000 on that one. Let's go two hundred yards towards like 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:41.360 behind it, because the thing might just turn around and 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:43.960 run towards us. Like we like, it was very hard 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.479 to pick him off or to get ahead of him. Yeah, 0:05:46.480 --> 0:05:48.719 they were just like that might be a defense mechanism, 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:50.920 I pointed Alaska. The last two years I saw the 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.920 same thing. They might stop in and feed or just 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:57.160 stand still for a couple of minutes and then just 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.960 pick up and run and and the bucks weren't bad, 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.360 So I thought so too, mate. Maybe they know like 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:05.560 I can't stay still too long. Yeah, that definitely could 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.280 be ye that That was the voice of Bill vander 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:13.920 Hayden from Iron Will Broadheads, who Kran pointed out here. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:17.839 Uh he was. He graduated number one out of one thousand, 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.120 two d and thirty two students at the University of 0:06:20.120 --> 0:06:25.680 Wisconsin mechanical Engineering. He's gonna talking about Broadhead. He's gonna 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.760 shuck the corn on Broadheads. It's gonna drop some science 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:30.480 on it. He's gonna drop some science on us. And 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.120 there's gonna there's there's there's Broadhead controversy too. I don't 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:34.440 know if people are aware of that. We're gonna get 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:36.680 into because we're gonna talk about what happens when you 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:40.800 shoot sharp stuff at animals, um and and what goes 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.400 on there and and and how your success in your 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:50.160 failure can come down to what equipment you use and 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.080 not just where you put it, but what happens once 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.080 you put it there. Um. Oh, real quick too, we 0:06:56.160 --> 0:06:57.839 got someone waiting on the line. We have the Angler 0:06:57.880 --> 0:06:59.240 of the Year waiting on the line. We're not talking 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:04.120 about Wally, We're talking about the real anger of the year. Yeah. 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:05.720 You know, I was trying to think of like like 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:08.360 because because this whole thing, like I don't want to 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:13.920 be demeaning, but I was thinking like like bass fishing, No, 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:16.080 I don't, like I would I would rather have one 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:17.840 wall than ten lar. I grew up in a large 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.160 mouth lake which I want to fish with Brandon who's 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:23.600 on the phone. But I have one wall than ten bass. 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:25.520 So I don't mean this as like I'm not this 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.080 isn't a dig, but the bass anger of the Year, 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:33.000 that's like the NBA. Yeah, when the wall Angle of 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:37.200 the years like the w n B A like meaning 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:40.440 like it just has a lot less awareness, like a 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.920 lot less awareness. Is that fair? I don't know about 0:07:43.960 --> 0:07:45.600 the w n b A. It might even be like 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:50.200 a lot less awareness, might be like college lacrosse. I 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:52.640 was listening to listen. I was listening. Okay, here's the thing. 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.080 I was listening to Bill Burr's new special. Let let's 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:59.200 watch him walk this back. I only thought of this 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:01.200 because I was watching and Bill. I was watching Bill 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:05.000 Burr's new special, and Bill ber is talking about, uh, 0:08:05.320 --> 0:08:08.520 these conversations, these endless conversations about the w n b A. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.800 What he likes to do is he likes to go 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.960 to his friends who are women, and say, oh, oh, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.600 name me your top your your favorite five w NBA players, 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:24.280 And he finds that no one can name the people 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.160 that are like like, oh, you can't name one? Yeah, 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:30.320 So that was that was That was his point. I 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.520 think everybody can name one with the one now that's 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:35.920 in the Russian for having like some for having a 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:42.959 little bit anyhow, Oh, Chester Chester is in way over 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:48.760 his waiters, What do you mean Chester is going? Chester 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:54.760 is opening announcement. You people have our tickets on sale. 0:08:54.840 --> 0:09:02.480 Yet if you get Chester, it used to be if 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:03.920 you wanted to see If I wanted to see Chester, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.360 I used to just call him up. I gotta go 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:11.000 to ticket Master ticket Master if you want to pay 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:14.880 eight dollar service charge. I gotta go to Ticketmaster to 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:20.000 see Chester because Chester is opening for Trampled by Turtles 0:09:20.080 --> 0:09:28.440 in Atlanta. Chester is traveling to Atlanta and opening. If 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.679 you want to see him, take it up with Ticketmaster. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:33.160 It's gonna be great. Or I can tell you where 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:38.160 he lives. I'm even I'm trying to write some some 0:09:38.559 --> 0:09:45.160 catchy originals to Chester went from being he didn't pick 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.280 up a guitar? How many years ago, like a little 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:55.000 over two years now, dude is skipping in line, skipping 0:09:55.200 --> 0:10:02.439 in line. Dave thought he had town. Does he tell 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:05.439 us a little bit about what your plan is. I'm 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:10.640 gonna show. I'm gonna play for to You're going to 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:14.360 write original so you're mostly gonna sing covers. I'm gonna 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:17.719 sing some covers, Yeah, mostly covers, and then if I 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:21.040 feel that my originals are up to par and not 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:24.520 too cheesy, I'll play a couple of them. What I 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:28.400 found is the Chester right now has about forty five 0:10:28.600 --> 0:10:34.800 career advisors. Everything. Everyone's like, here's what I do Chester 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.360 from crypto me who's never been able to play an 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:43.200 instrument or sing I'm like, here's here's the lineup, should 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:47.360 be Chester. So now we got to figure that out. 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:51.480 You play, I think his stage name and everything, like 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:53.319 you know, you get like like it should be like Madonna, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.520 but it should just be Chester. I thought about it. 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.280 I thought it should be Chester the Molester, but that 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.599 sets like then you're gonna get weird people in the 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:03.240 cross They're like, where's the part about molesting? I want 0:11:03.280 --> 0:11:06.120 my money bag? And I think it should just be 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:09.679 that he plays as Chester. That's what I told him 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:13.480 to put on the poster. I really like your originals. Man, 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.400 how long? How many? How long are you? How many songs? 0:11:16.440 --> 0:11:19.280 How long are you to play? It'll probably be like eight, nine, 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:25.000 ten songs, which will be like five minutes minutes. Because 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.679 Chess were speeding through this career so fast. It's like 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:29.840 it's like six months from now, he's gonna be He's 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:37.360 gonna hotel six months I'll put I'll put I'll put 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.880 the link to tickets up on my Instagram so you 0:11:40.920 --> 0:11:46.720 can go buy some in Atlanta, Georgia And uh yeah, 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:50.080 what's the date? December one? How many people you playing 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:54.360 in front of? I think it's like I wonder if 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.320 I can make it down there December one. We gotta 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:00.439 do a thing. You gotta do a thing exactly you ask. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:06.719 We'll go to like gun show the store and be like, 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.360 I need a bunch of rotten tomatoes and ship. Do 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:13.080 you feel like opening up for the meteor podcasts and billings? 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.920 Is that all you needed to kind of breakthrough? Yes? 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:18.559 That was way harder I think than this will be, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.319 because people will be in the crowd actually talking and 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:23.920 like there to listen to music. The billing show was 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:27.280 like here Chester go on stage. Everyone will be quiet, 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:29.839 they'll be confused, will be slightly confused, and there'll be 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:33.439 a light on you, just shining right on you. And 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:35.679 then you've got to sing a song. Yeah, and they're like, 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:41.400 what happened? I had the wrong event? The audience They're like, 0:12:41.480 --> 0:12:47.600 did he forget a verse? Anyways, I'm Tea. I'm super 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.640 proud of you, man, Well, thank you, thank you. I 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.360 don't mean you're I don't mean you're in over your waiters. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:54.200 I just mean you're like on a fast track. Dude, 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:56.959 I'm not in over my waiters because I can. I 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.480 just need to play like I'm sitting on my couch 0:13:00.760 --> 0:13:03.120 maybe with a little more enthusiasm, but you know, just 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:05.199 play music. That was some of the best advice I 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:09.000 ever got as a writer. Try to image yourself telling. 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.600 Try to imagine the best version of yourself telling your 0:13:12.640 --> 0:13:15.959 friend in a bar or something, the best explanation you 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.839 ever gave to your friend in a bar about something. Yeah, 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:24.320 that's good. Try to like write like that. I can 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:29.079 do it. How did TBT find you? Um? He real 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:34.439 He follows me on Instagram and Karen Um they're in 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.000 contact just because he's been on the podcast before and 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.559 she gave him my number and he text me and 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:43.240 Danielle was sitting right there and I was like, this 0:13:43.360 --> 0:13:46.880 is a weird text. And because I just I just 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.760 to weight it to both of them. Yeah, I read 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.400 it out loud, and as I was reading it, Danielle 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.600 was like in the background, like jumping up and down. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.319 She's like, you have to do it. Even though it's 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:03.400 like eight days after we have our firstborn son. Your 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.439 wife's into it. Yeah, she's like, yeah, She's like you 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.719 you don't. People don't really get opportunities like that in 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:15.120 the spot that you're at. Mm hmm. So you gotta 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:18.199 do it, Danielle, don't give birth late, you're gonna be 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:26.840 completely sleep deprived and hallucinating on stage. Man groupies, he'd 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.000 be beating him off with his fish pole. But I 0:14:30.080 --> 0:14:34.080 want to talk about bass fishing with Brandon. Oh that's 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:38.280 we're getting. We have on the phone now. Chester told 0:14:38.320 --> 0:14:41.840 me last night that, Um, Brandon, Uh, tell everybody where 0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.800 you're at what's going on? That the Brandon polluted I 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.880 was best politic. Brandon Polinck, who you should know because 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:53.600 he's been on the show before. Uh, last night was 0:14:53.920 --> 0:15:02.680 christened crowned Anger of the Year. My on, you're you're right. 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:10.040 It's a true story Acrosse, Wisconsin, and you explained it perfectly. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:12.600 I mean, I remember last time I was in studio, 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:14.880 we were kind of having to explain the whole tournament 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.640 bass fishing thing to you, and then you just you 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.720 put Chester straight and nailed it. With the end of 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:25.960 the w n B A comparison. Then you were you 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.520 were dead nuts on with that one. So so tell me, like, 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:31.440 what what is this the culmination of it? What does 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:36.240 it mean for your career? Um? Well, this this is 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:41.200 my second a O I win. So it puts me 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.960 in a very small group of guys that have won 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:50.480 multiple Uh, I was the twelfth guy to win multiple 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.320 a wise, and I think the twenty seventh guy to 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:59.520 ever win one. Yeah, and like the fifty plus years 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:02.360 of bass So they're looking at when they do this, 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.320 they're looking at the culmination of a of a collection 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:10.360 of tournaments, right, Like, it doesn't mean one particular tournament. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.280 This means that, like over the entire tour or have 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:17.200 you guys put it, that you were above and beyond 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:22.400 had the best angler performance out of all the anglers 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.160 engaged in all the different tournaments. Yeah, exactly. So it's 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:31.200 a points race. So we have a hundred anglers that 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:36.520 qualify for the Bass Master Lead Series. All those same 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.840 hundred guys fish throughout the entire year. First place gets 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:44.480 a hundred points, second gets, third gets and so forth, 0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:46.840 and you know, down the board. And so there's an 0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.000 accumulative points race that carries on through the nine events 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:56.240 of the year. And we just finished well today, the 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.000 top ten is actually still fishing today. I just didn't 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:03.320 make the top ten, but I had I placed high 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.400 enough yesterday that nobody could pass me in points today. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.760 How many points you got, Honestly, I don't even know. 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:14.440 I haven't looked at points in eight years until the 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:16.159 end of the year, but I haven't even looked at 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:18.280 the points of this year to know how many points 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:24.800 I have? Is there a cash prize? Ran Brandon? You 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:30.400 that's awesome, man. I had been following you all year, 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:33.840 and you know you're doing really well, and you went 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:40.639 to Lake Wahi and struggled a little bit. There a 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.119 bond you can You're putting it way too nice. Chester. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:50.280 You need to go more Chester molester on this one. Yeah, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:55.119 I about screwed up my whole entire season. So walk us, 0:17:55.560 --> 0:18:00.200 walk us through like real quick, like what was been 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.040 going into y he? Then a while he and then 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:09.160 what was in your mind going into lacrosse? Uh? Soon? 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.160 Looking back now and after everyone telling me like how 0:18:14.240 --> 0:18:16.320 the points played out and stuff, Because I hadn't looked 0:18:16.400 --> 0:18:18.480 all season, I didn't know what the points gap was. 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.920 I knew that there were a couple of guys behind 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:23.000 me that we're in the running. But I was leading 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:28.200 going into Hawaii, and knowing what I know now, I 0:18:28.359 --> 0:18:30.760 was running away with it at that time. Like if 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.720 I would have just cut a check, it would have 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.520 been nearly impossible for someone to beat me. This week 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:42.760 whether I kind of bass or not. And I completely 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.800 bombed and finished like sixty six that a wahi, and 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:48.800 before that, my worst finish of the season had been 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:55.920 twenty six. And so it went from being almost nearly 0:18:55.960 --> 0:19:00.920 impossible to getting getting beat for a y two, making 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.720 it so that multiple guys had a shot to win it. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.760 And you know, a lot of that just came from 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.640 poor decision making at a wali, right, like riding off 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.879 sections of the lake and preconceived notions and things like that, 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:29.840 Oh yeah, I'm crushed the walleye, like walley one. Walleye 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:33.840 is worth way more than ten large mouth if you're 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:39.000 talking about eating them, sure, and way better um, And 0:19:39.160 --> 0:19:42.560 that I mean incredible walleye fishery, and it's actually a 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:44.600 really good small mouth fishery. We just hit it at 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.399 a really weird time and I made poor decisions. And 0:19:47.480 --> 0:19:50.960 then I came into lacrosse this week still not knowing 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.080 the points, but knowing that it was a lot closer 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:56.560 by the way everyone was acting. It was a lot 0:19:56.640 --> 0:20:00.440 closer than what it needed to be, and was able 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:03.520 to to pull it out and actually had an incredible 0:20:03.640 --> 0:20:08.160 day yesterday. Um caught the biggest bag that I caught 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:11.360 all week and I was able to seal the deal. 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.880 Move up and how many how many pounds was yesterday's bag? 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.280 That's five? How many fishes at five fish? Five? Yeah? Five? 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.760 So I had fifteen pounds for five yesterday, which on 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.639 this river right now is pretty dank solid. Like if 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.119 I would have caught fifteen every day, I would have 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.399 nearly been leading the event. Dude, I'm gonna go bass 0:20:31.400 --> 0:20:34.399 fishing with you, so bad man, let's go seeweed taste 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:40.959 and bastards. I'm ready. Um uh imagine the tax at 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:46.480 hunter Grand pretty aggressively. I'm guessing they're gonna some chump 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.160 who never paid his student loans and here here, yeah, 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.119 here's the best part. Wisconsin is a state that they 0:20:53.200 --> 0:20:56.439 have to pull the taxes out of your check before 0:20:56.480 --> 0:21:01.800 you even get it. And then so now I'm only 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.720 getting four grand because Wisconsin is gonna take six and 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:07.679 then I gotta go do all the paperwork to try 0:21:07.720 --> 0:21:12.640 to get some of it back. I don't live you, Yeah, yeah, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:14.639 sometimes you wish you could just go fishing to have 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:18.280 to deal with all that money and it. Trust me, 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.200 I know that's why I go walleye fishing. So you're 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.200 so you're not even fishing now, but you're still hanging around. 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:25.520 Is that? Is that like a polite thing to do 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:29.720 is hang around. I actually started doing that like two 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:34.360 years ago, and I'm sticking around watching each guy win 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:39.440 the event because it to me, it's like a respect 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.440 thing to the other anglers and somewhat, but it's also 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.520 a driving force to me, like personally to see a 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:51.320 guy win, knowing that like I had equal opportunity to 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:54.040 go do that and I couldn't pull it off, Like 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:56.520 I didn't make the right decisions that week, and so 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.840 it's it just motivates me even more for the next week, 0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:02.119 the week after that, Yeah, I got it. And are 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.800 you done for the summer now? Oh? Yeah, it's we're switching. 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.600 I will still fish some in the fall and everything 0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.680 that keep my skills in check, but it's full on 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.080 hunting season now. And then when you when you got 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.200 to start back up hardcore fishing again. We'll start tournaments 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:21.840 again next February. We'll start showing season and all that 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:25.919 stuff traveling in January, but February. We don't have our 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.200 schedule yet for next year, but it usually it starts 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:31.680 around February. Uh, can you can you take a listener 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:36.080 question for us? For sure? Guy rolled in um wondering 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:40.840 about what happens when you spook a fish. He's talking 0:22:40.840 --> 0:22:43.240 about how long, like if you like spook a deer, 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:45.680 how long it goes before it kind of goes back 0:22:45.760 --> 0:22:49.000 to normal, right, like how far it was? You know, 0:22:49.200 --> 0:22:52.720 it's highly variable, right, but you're saying, let's fish and 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.000 like really fight it and he comes off not not 0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:58.040 as he stung his lip, but like you had him on. 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:01.600 You know, yeah, when does that fishing? When does that 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:06.520 fish like back to normal ready to hit again. It's 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:12.200 all situational, um, and it's different depending on species. So 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:15.640 like a small mouth bass versus a large mouth will 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:19.520 be way more aggressive. Like, so your odds of hooking 0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.719 and losing a small mouth and catching it again quickly 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:24.760 is much higher than doing it with a large mouth 0:23:26.000 --> 0:23:28.240 just because they got a bad attitude. So you've you've 0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:34.200 probably hooked small mouth, broke off and like potentially caught 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:37.480 the small mouth with your with your lure still in 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:42.360 the mouth, especially if they're spawning. Right if they're spawning, 0:23:42.480 --> 0:23:44.720 like when they seeing or can't see any cast, break 0:23:44.760 --> 0:23:46.720 wing off your cast back in there, swims over, eats it, 0:23:46.760 --> 0:23:49.680 and you get both your hooks back, and that's like 0:23:49.840 --> 0:23:53.560 breaking him off. Yeah, that's like you catch him. He 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:55.920 still has the lure stuck in his mouth. He cast 0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:57.920 back out there, he swims over, eats the next one 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.120 and get to like I caught I caught a small 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.120 off one time on Lake Oneida. And when I caught 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:11.280 him brought him in the boat, he regurgitated a bait 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:15.560 that he had just stole off my the cast before, 0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:17.480 right like it just sucked the worm off the hook, 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:20.720 and that was a plastic worm, not even real one. 0:24:21.119 --> 0:24:25.480 He spit up another plastic worm, like a little four 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:30.159 inch black sinco, a shad and a crowdad all at 0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:34.399 the same time, and was still swimming around eating my baits. 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:39.040 And but there's been times where like you don't hook them, 0:24:40.240 --> 0:24:43.000 and I'll follow him sometimes for a quarter mile, like 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:44.720 if they get on a sand flat or something, you 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:46.520 have just follow him and you'll keep casting at I'm 0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:48.960 keep casting out him. They'll spook from the boat a little, 0:24:49.040 --> 0:24:51.959 or they'll spook from your cast and then you'll hit 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:54.680 it just right, or they get annoyed enough and they'll 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.240 swim over and buy it got it. I know it's 0:24:58.240 --> 0:25:00.240 a hard, hard question to answer because it's like so 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.800 like what everything is so highly variable? Right, Yeah, for sure, 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:08.760 we'll Congratulations man, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, you 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.840 gotta come back on the show. Yeah, I would love to. 0:25:12.040 --> 0:25:13.879 We're gonna make it's not too far a drive, so 0:25:14.119 --> 0:25:16.080 we'll make Cret We'll make Creant chase you down and 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:18.600 get you back up here. It'd be fun. Yeah. They 0:25:18.720 --> 0:25:21.000 still gotta fish your mos pond. We still gotta fish 0:25:21.080 --> 0:25:24.359 my moms like my mom's. Yeah, your breakdowns, Like we 0:25:24.480 --> 0:25:26.080 talked about that a little bit. We'll do it that lake. 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:29.880 It's not going anywhere. Um, this last summer what turned 0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:31.439 out to not be a good summer for a handful 0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.560 of reasons. But uh, but we'll get back on track 0:25:34.640 --> 0:25:38.440 for that. Alright. Congratulations, thanks for jumping on. Yeah, I 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:40.280 appreciate you. Guys. I'll talk to you seon alright, take 0:25:40.320 --> 0:25:45.119 good luck Alt County. All right, thanks. Oh guy wrote in, uh, 0:25:45.359 --> 0:25:49.360 interesting point. We're talking about leading copper. We're talking about 0:25:49.400 --> 0:25:53.000 when you go to the kind of this ongoing debate 0:25:53.040 --> 0:25:57.359 about you know, lead ammo, copper ammo, all these different 0:25:57.400 --> 0:26:02.360 pros and cons of each. Um uh, we're talking about 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:03.960 how like, like I we did a tour of the 0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:07.520 Federal plant, Federal Ammunition Plant, and all the lead Federal 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:12.480 uses is recycled car batteries. It's all recycled lead, okay, 0:26:13.480 --> 0:26:15.520 and someone rolled in and he's like, the problem with 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:20.879 you people like you is you say, like, oh, copper, copper, copper, 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:22.680 but then every time they go to put in a 0:26:22.720 --> 0:26:26.520 copper mind you bitch about it. For instance, I've been 0:26:26.560 --> 0:26:30.760 a long you know I've been I've spent well, I've 0:26:30.760 --> 0:26:34.119 went to my first anti pebble mine event before my 0:26:34.200 --> 0:26:37.200 twelve year old was born. So I've been following in 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:41.520 in and voicing all the reasons they shouldn't do a 0:26:41.640 --> 0:26:45.159 golden copper mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay for 0:26:45.400 --> 0:26:48.000 thirteen years, fourteen years. But he's like, so, how can 0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:50.919 you reconcile that was saying you'd like to shoot copper ammo, 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:55.080 or that people should shoot copper ammo. Uh. I felt 0:26:55.119 --> 0:26:57.000 that he a little bit oversimplified what I've said on 0:26:57.080 --> 0:27:02.520 the subject. However, um fella road in to say that 0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:07.640 most at copper and your copper animals recycled. Anyways, thousands 0:27:07.680 --> 0:27:11.359 of tons of copper. This is him talking. Thousands of 0:27:11.480 --> 0:27:14.120 tons of coppered are recycled off job sites every year. 0:27:15.760 --> 0:27:17.680 What most people don't know is it can only be 0:27:17.880 --> 0:27:21.159 refined once to use as a conductor. I did not 0:27:21.320 --> 0:27:24.200 know this copper can be used once as a conductor. 0:27:25.080 --> 0:27:29.639 Once it's melted down again, it's conductive properties are diminished 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:34.880 and it cannot be used again as wire. So most 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:38.200 likely the copper that you're using, which doesn't need to 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:40.920 be conductive copper and copper ammunitions. It would make the 0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:45.159 most sense that they're buying it up cheaper as a 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:47.280 recycled material, then going out and digging it out of 0:27:47.320 --> 0:27:49.240 a hole in the ground. Thinking about that bill. That 0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:53.000 probably tickles your fancy as an engineer. You buying it? Um, 0:27:53.240 --> 0:27:56.320 I did not know that about conduction of copper after 0:27:56.960 --> 0:28:00.560 reuse recycled, But that sounds good more. You're more of 0:28:00.600 --> 0:28:03.280 a broadhead man, you're not a bullet man. Yeah, I'm 0:28:03.280 --> 0:28:07.000 meant to steal more than copper. Yeah, for sure. Uh 0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:11.120 that was interesting. Oh here's one. This is a weird one. 0:28:12.680 --> 0:28:17.159 This dude from Michigan rights in is his girlfriends and 0:28:17.640 --> 0:28:21.640 taking her hunter safety and they're actually advising you. They're 0:28:21.680 --> 0:28:26.840 advising you and hunter safety. Quote when transporting game, be 0:28:26.960 --> 0:28:30.560 sure to keep it covered to avoid offending others. That's 0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:34.080 not like a hunter's safety. That's a that's a sticky one. 0:28:34.600 --> 0:28:38.040 Isn't that illegal? Some places to hide it? Well, don't 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:43.160 you have to have exposed? I don't know, but I'm 0:28:43.200 --> 0:28:46.000 gonna say no. I think when I was a kid 0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:49.600 in Wisconsin that you had to have your deer where 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:52.920 you could see it, like what I think, so people 0:28:53.000 --> 0:28:57.040 had them tied onto their cars and visible in there. 0:28:57.240 --> 0:28:59.840 They wanted to know that you had it. You couldn't. 0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:02.120 I think once you got it registered, you had to 0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:05.440 drive the talent register it. And I think that was 0:29:05.560 --> 0:29:07.719 the rule that you had to have it like displayed 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:11.480 or visible until he was a registered that's you know, 0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:13.200 I was. I don't know if I knew the law 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:16.640 is exactly back then, but that's that And maybe people 0:29:16.680 --> 0:29:18.360 were just showing off their bucks. I don't know. Well, 0:29:18.720 --> 0:29:20.080 it was like a big thing in the old days, 0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:22.160 like whenever he was driving around and like old cars 0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:26.240 they have like strung up on there. But where it 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:31.840 gets like you know, is it um how to what degree? 0:29:32.440 --> 0:29:35.040 Like if you get a deer. Let's just purely personal 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:37.920 decision making here. Let's say there's no legal okay, there's 0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:41.000 no legal structure behind if you get a deer, should 0:29:41.040 --> 0:29:44.480 you have the attitude that you've done something bad and 0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:48.560 should hide it lest someone be offended? Or is it 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:51.000 that you've done something that you're happy about and glad 0:29:51.040 --> 0:29:55.440 about and don't mind displaying it. I see, I see 0:29:55.480 --> 0:30:00.280 both sides of it. I've argued both sides of it. Yeah, 0:30:00.320 --> 0:30:02.960 in Wisconsin, it's like a huge thing. If you shoot 0:30:03.000 --> 0:30:06.760 a nice dear, it's rare you find that dude hiding 0:30:06.840 --> 0:30:11.160 that buck, like tailgates down and he stops at like 0:30:12.320 --> 0:30:17.760 all the deer registration stations and a few bars, and 0:30:18.280 --> 0:30:20.560 he's like, look at my buck. You know. Yeah, I 0:30:20.760 --> 0:30:23.200 don't uh like I have a top around my truck, 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.120 and I would never like do, but not for not 0:30:26.240 --> 0:30:28.560 for fear of offending people, just more of like, you know, 0:30:28.720 --> 0:30:32.680 I don't know, just this is where I would put it, 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:37.680 I guess. So it's not like a decision for me. Well, 0:30:37.760 --> 0:30:39.920 this fall, you're gonna shoot such a big bull, he's 0:30:39.960 --> 0:30:44.520 not gonna fit in that bed of yours. You're gonna 0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:48.760 have to attach him to the canoe racks. Good, I 0:30:48.840 --> 0:30:52.960 got aloft the top of though ain't gonna fit. Here's 0:30:52.960 --> 0:30:55.360 another one. This guy's one or no that The topic 0:30:55.520 --> 0:30:57.640 is am I the ask? This is a this is 0:30:57.680 --> 0:31:00.200 a this is a sticky one. So noo. A guy 0:31:00.240 --> 0:31:05.080 from Michigan. How do people from Michigan right now? A 0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:09.840 lot of problems in Michigan. He's from Michigan, and he's 0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:15.280 been doing some scouting just right now. Okay, He's been 0:31:15.360 --> 0:31:20.200 cruising the road surrounding the properties where he has permission 0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:22.880 to hunt. So he's got permission to hunt certain properties 0:31:22.880 --> 0:31:27.760 in his area. He's cruising around in the evening, glassing 0:31:28.400 --> 0:31:33.680 out in crop fields. One such property is about three 0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:38.320 acres of mixed egg and small woodlots. The way the 0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:40.960 crops lay out this year. The neighbor's property have some 0:31:41.160 --> 0:31:44.440 soybeans that the bachelor groups of bucks have been hitting hard. 0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:48.360 Two nights this week, I partner my truck on private 0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:53.160 property I have permission on and have been glassing the 0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:58.760 deer in a neighbor's soybeans each night. I'm still quoting here. 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:02.880 Each night the neighbor confronted me and asked me about 0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:06.360 what I was doing. The first night was more cordial, 0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:08.600 and he just inquired about who I was and what 0:32:08.720 --> 0:32:11.400 I was up to. The second evening he was straight 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:14.440 up confrontational and threatened me with calling the d n 0:32:14.720 --> 0:32:20.480 R and complaining about hunter harassment. M he's kind of 0:32:20.560 --> 0:32:24.400 turning the hunter harassment on the hunter on the bow hunter. 0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:27.800 It's like he's confused, he needs to look up harrassment. 0:32:29.480 --> 0:32:32.800 So no, I think that his angle is that this 0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:39.760 dude is somehow trying to disrupt his upcoming hunt. Okay, 0:32:41.680 --> 0:32:45.240 I'll continue. He says, my long distant glassing is going 0:32:45.280 --> 0:32:48.920 to pressure the deer and ruin his hunting this fall. 0:32:49.480 --> 0:32:52.760 He also went into and here's some value judgment, because 0:32:52.760 --> 0:32:55.200 he says, he went into an egotistical rant about how 0:32:55.280 --> 0:32:58.800 he and his bodies only shoot one bucks and how 0:32:58.840 --> 0:33:00.680 the guys who hunt my pro he should be doing 0:33:00.720 --> 0:33:05.080 the same. So again he points out, I'm set up 0:33:05.120 --> 0:33:08.000 on a private property where a farm lane intersects the 0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:10.200 dirt road. I'm sitting on the tailgate in my truck, 0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:13.000 and I'm glassing across a roadway into a bean field 0:33:13.040 --> 0:33:15.840 where the deer are five hundred two thousand yards away. 0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:19.920 No houses, no other dwellings or structures are visible from 0:33:19.960 --> 0:33:23.840 my spot due to topography and vegetation. Therefore, it shouldn't 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:26.719 be misconstrued that I'm stalking or looking at people's houses. 0:33:28.320 --> 0:33:31.120 The dirt road is relatively busy, many people drive it 0:33:31.200 --> 0:33:33.320 with cars side by sides and dirt bikes, so he's 0:33:33.360 --> 0:33:40.560 not adding to the activity. M hm, Okay, if you 0:33:40.720 --> 0:33:44.360 are absolutely one dead nuts positive sure that you're not 0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:46.560 sort of like kind of like glancing over at the 0:33:46.600 --> 0:33:50.600 guy's house with with binoculars. I just can't see what 0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:53.080 the issue is. I don't think there is one man. 0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:55.640 I think this is just like classic sort of white 0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:58.320 tail hunter paranoia. What what it really seems to me 0:33:58.640 --> 0:34:02.160 this is Hayden samic ladies and gentle. It really seems 0:34:02.160 --> 0:34:04.000 to me that this guy's main problem is that he 0:34:04.080 --> 0:34:07.800 doesn't have like a hedgerow or something right off the road. 0:34:07.800 --> 0:34:09.799 A lot of times, like white Dale hunters with these 0:34:09.840 --> 0:34:12.719 highly managed properties, they're like, I forget what the grass 0:34:12.840 --> 0:34:16.640 is called. But yeah, like Mark, I think Mark Kenyon 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:19.400 did it with the back forty. Is he planned that 0:34:19.840 --> 0:34:21.880 he tried or he tried to plant like a screen 0:34:22.080 --> 0:34:25.840 that kind of intersected or blocked the view from the 0:34:26.000 --> 0:34:30.000 road specifically for this purpose. I would also say that 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.759 if this guy came out here, had the conversation with 0:34:32.920 --> 0:34:35.000 this dude and those deer, we're still standing in the 0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:39.360 middle of the field. It's probably not an issue, you know. 0:34:40.719 --> 0:34:43.680 It just it seems like this dude is just weirdly 0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:47.719 protective about his deer. But Northeast Deer Hunting King's deer 0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:50.040 issue is what it is. Yeah, it sounds like the 0:34:50.760 --> 0:34:55.800 guy who was upset also could have handled that confrontation 0:34:56.840 --> 0:34:59.719 a little better if he was actually that worried, rather 0:34:59.800 --> 0:35:01.800 than just straight up calling the d n R. And 0:35:02.160 --> 0:35:06.640 which is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's just 0:35:07.520 --> 0:35:09.920 I don't know. You can imagine if the cop did 0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:13.719 come and they both guys laid out their argument, the 0:35:13.760 --> 0:35:15.400 cop would probably feel like the guy that owns the 0:35:16.160 --> 0:35:20.640 field is insane. Yeah, right, he's like homent um. What 0:35:21.320 --> 0:35:25.960 you're upset about. You're mad that he's on his property 0:35:26.040 --> 0:35:29.600 looking over into your property looking at deer. This is 0:35:29.600 --> 0:35:31.960 gonna be very hard to enforce. Look for all the 0:35:32.080 --> 0:35:35.160 motors coming down this road that they don't look, they 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:38.480 don't look over that a way. Yeah, and our listener 0:35:38.560 --> 0:35:42.040 Brian is being so thoughtful to even you know self 0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:46.400 reflecting right in and ask what what some of you 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:50.000 might think. So it sounds to me, Brian, that you're 0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:52.480 not an ass. But here's the thing to keep mind. 0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:54.800 Here's the thing to keep in mind too. This is 0:35:54.880 --> 0:36:01.239 my Like you can't take marriage, for instance, there are 0:36:01.360 --> 0:36:07.239 things that your anniversary today, oh for you gradulation, take 0:36:07.320 --> 0:36:09.680 marriage for instance. It might be that there's something that 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:12.520 drives your spouse nuts and you're like, I still see, 0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:16.719 like why do you care? Right? But then just you 0:36:16.760 --> 0:36:21.000 just stop doing it because right you stop doing it, 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:22.759 like you don't see what the issue is, but you 0:36:22.840 --> 0:36:25.000 just stop doing it because it annoys them. So it 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:28.560 could be that in the spirit of just trying to 0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:31.520 keep things, Cord will not keep things heated. The he 0:36:31.680 --> 0:36:35.239 just dips into the woods and then sits against a 0:36:35.320 --> 0:36:40.719 tree and looks over into the soybean field or whatever. Right, Like, like, 0:36:41.440 --> 0:36:43.640 maybe the guys irrational, but do you want to have 0:36:44.440 --> 0:36:46.600 is that the relationship you want to have with everybody? 0:36:46.680 --> 0:36:49.520 Like he's un irrational, Perhaps you're not gonna fix it, 0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:52.560 but do you want to like poke the bear all 0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:57.839 the time? Yeah, And Brian's is obviously. You know these 0:36:57.960 --> 0:37:01.440 bucks come once they start getting frisky and running around 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:06.080 thousand yards away. He's just getting a feel for what 0:37:06.239 --> 0:37:08.560 kind of deer are in the area. You know, they 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:14.880 could easily beyond his property come runt time. So, Kendra, 0:37:15.040 --> 0:37:17.080 you know we're talking about I was talking about a 0:37:17.120 --> 0:37:20.960 friend of mine on a recent episode. Uh, I should say, 0:37:20.960 --> 0:37:22.880 a friend of an acquaintance of mine that got hit 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:25.759 by a rattlesnake and they took him to his local 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:28.160 hospital and they didn't have the anti venom, so he 0:37:28.200 --> 0:37:29.640 had to get in a helicopter and go to a 0:37:29.719 --> 0:37:32.080 hospital that had the anti venom, and they charged him 0:37:32.120 --> 0:37:35.759 nine thousand bucks for the helicopter ride. Well, listen to this. 0:37:36.400 --> 0:37:40.040 Steve Kendraw, who's been on the show. He's on a 0:37:40.080 --> 0:37:46.040 bird hunting some bird hunting for him, and the guy, 0:37:46.120 --> 0:37:47.600 a guy on a bird hunting for him, had this 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:53.040 to say. My mother was bitten by a copper head 0:37:53.520 --> 0:37:58.520 in June. She received the hospital bill in today's mail 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:04.480 and the anti venom cost one hundred and nineteen thousand 0:38:04.560 --> 0:38:09.759 dollars and nine one hundred nineteen thousand, nine hundred nine 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:15.839 seven dollars. Oh my gosh, she was bitten in the hand, 0:38:16.040 --> 0:38:18.239 and she told me I sucked the venom out and 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.840 spit it out, then drove herself to the hospital and 0:38:21.960 --> 0:38:24.960 to back himself up. He the receipt is in here, 0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:29.839 like Kendrot sent me the receipt. It's like YadA YadA YadA. Um. 0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:34.200 Room and board at the hospital fifty dollars, the lab 0:38:34.600 --> 0:38:40.080 costs six thirteen, has some kind of diagnostics something or 0:38:40.080 --> 0:38:45.200 another three fifty six bucks. Her emergency room visit three 0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:49.680 thousand one bucks. The pharmacy bill for the anti venom 0:38:49.960 --> 0:38:55.799 one nine. Did insurance cover it? He says, she's got 0:38:55.880 --> 0:39:00.320 good insurance. I'll point out that the Stafford host Bittle 0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:05.960 has a two point seven uh star rating on Google Reviews. Yeah, 0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:10.080 but I don't think people like like, yeah, I guess now, 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:12.560 and then you leave a hospital like loving the place. Well, 0:39:12.640 --> 0:39:15.680 the other Stafford hospital I can find is actually in England, 0:39:16.000 --> 0:39:20.520 and the Wikipedia page is called the Stafford Hospital scandal. Yeah, 0:39:20.520 --> 0:39:23.880 if that's this not high marks, but this just happening yesterday, 0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:27.560 But no, this is this is here in the good 0:39:27.560 --> 0:39:29.600 old America. And then they got copper heads in England. 0:39:30.080 --> 0:39:32.600 So my dog has been bit by rattlesnake three times now, 0:39:32.880 --> 0:39:37.000 same dog, and it costs like to get the anti 0:39:37.080 --> 0:39:39.840 venom at the vet, so she should have went to 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.640 the vet. Well, but that's the copper head venom might 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:47.480 be totally different. That's an unlucky dog. You think it'd 0:39:47.520 --> 0:39:50.160 be snake team by now. Yeah, she was bit when 0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:52.319 she was four months old. I didn't think she's gonna 0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:53.759 make at that time, but she did. She went on 0:39:53.840 --> 0:39:56.520 to be a great hunting dog, and then twice last summer, 0:39:57.200 --> 0:39:59.640 but the second time she didn't. She didn't react to it, 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:02.600 so they thought maybe she's kind of immune to it. 0:40:02.640 --> 0:40:05.600 At this point, where is this happening Not in eastern 0:40:05.680 --> 0:40:12.640 Colorado on Nebraska Colorado border area. Another guy wrote in 0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:14.360 remember how we covered that guy that fell in the 0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:18.200 vault on the house and spent all those hours his 0:40:18.280 --> 0:40:20.600 phone he was he was, I don't know what he's doing. 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:25.600 Presumably he was defecating and his phone fell into an 0:40:25.880 --> 0:40:28.279 house vault at a fishing access site in Montana. And 0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:30.440 you were insistent he would be a tremendous guest on 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:34.440 the podcast. So I wanted to get him a show 0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:38.359 to interview him. And I said, like, I just asked him, 0:40:38.360 --> 0:40:39.920 what are you thinking when you stuck down in at 0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:41.880 our house vault? And a guy wrote me inside, I 0:40:41.880 --> 0:40:44.319 can tell you what he wasn't thinking. Where's the guys 0:40:44.320 --> 0:40:50.160 supposed to take a piss around here? But doom boom, 0:40:51.040 --> 0:41:03.760 but don't bump all right? Bill Born and raising Wisconi. 0:41:04.280 --> 0:41:08.760 Where at central it says, Montella, Wisconsin, kind of central 0:41:09.000 --> 0:41:11.480 part of the state, about hour north of Madison. Grew 0:41:11.560 --> 0:41:15.279 up bow hunting? I did, yep. My father grandfather were 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:18.320 bow hunters. So um, I grew up bow hunting and 0:41:18.400 --> 0:41:21.400 rifle hunting. You can you can do both there. You 0:41:21.480 --> 0:41:23.040 don't have to just choose one or the other like 0:41:23.120 --> 0:41:25.120 you do in Minnesota or some other states. How old 0:41:25.160 --> 0:41:28.520 are you? So set the scene for me. What was 0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.200 going on like when you were twelve or whatever? Well? 0:41:31.239 --> 0:41:36.520 Where was the archery equipment? I started with a recurve um. 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:40.120 You know you were hearing whispers of the compound both 0:41:40.280 --> 0:41:43.040 I saw compounds. I uh. It took me two years 0:41:43.120 --> 0:41:45.160 to save up the money to buy one and start 0:41:45.360 --> 0:41:48.279 start killing deer. But I started with a recurve um. 0:41:48.480 --> 0:41:53.960 That's what my my dad grandfather had used. This was 0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:57.839 Ben Pearson. It was it was, oh, that was all 0:41:57.920 --> 0:42:01.120 My first bows were Ben Pierson bows. Hold on fiber 0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:04.040 shafts or you mean to say limbs, no on his 0:42:04.200 --> 0:42:08.160 arrows aluminum or it was like, no, it's like the 0:42:08.160 --> 0:42:10.920 big thing they have fiberglass arrows, wasn't it. I had 0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:14.560 some kind of composite arrows, but mainly I shot aluminum arrows. 0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:16.560 Wasn't there for a time people I know, like car 0:42:16.680 --> 0:42:18.439 barrels and ship It wasn't like in the early days 0:42:18.480 --> 0:42:21.520 people were messing with fiberglass. Yeah, because remember people getting 0:42:21.520 --> 0:42:26.719 those fiberglass they'd go to pull them fiberglass ship in 0:42:26.760 --> 0:42:28.120 her hands all the time. It looks like you can 0:42:28.160 --> 0:42:32.240 still buy them from three rivers. So anyways, aluminium anyway, 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:38.600 iluminum and what what were you guys? Broadheads back then thunderheads, 0:42:38.880 --> 0:42:41.879 raise your back fives all that stuff, man, and then 0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:45.840 some Muzzy's price soon after that. Um, a lot of 0:42:46.000 --> 0:42:48.359 a lot of three blade shows point type heads. Um, 0:42:49.360 --> 0:42:52.239 but not like so you're not like, uh like those 0:42:52.280 --> 0:42:55.680 old delta like the steel ones and stuff with I 0:42:55.800 --> 0:42:57.880 think I had some of those from my from my 0:42:58.000 --> 0:43:02.080 dad grandfather, some of the razor heads and things. Um. 0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:05.400 And that's probably is what I started with. But when 0:43:05.440 --> 0:43:08.600 I started, yeah, I think I was twelve when I started. 0:43:08.640 --> 0:43:10.040 I think I was four team when I bought my 0:43:10.080 --> 0:43:13.880 first compound and then started shooting probably thunderheads at that 0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:16.879 point something like that. Were you when you were doing 0:43:16.920 --> 0:43:20.480 that as a kid? Were you, um? Were you like 0:43:20.960 --> 0:43:22.880 mechanically minded at the time? Were you just use what 0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:24.840 people told you to use? Were did you? Were you 0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:26.920 early on thinking like, man, this would be a lot 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:30.040 better if it was blank. Actually I was just using 0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:32.479 what people told me to use for quite a few years. 0:43:32.680 --> 0:43:35.600 Even even as I became a mechanical engineer, I wasn't 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:38.960 really applying it to broadheads and our treat that much. 0:43:38.960 --> 0:43:42.239 I mean, I understood the fundamentals, but I wasn't really 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:47.160 serious about applying it to bow hunting, you know, until 0:43:47.640 --> 0:43:50.040 actually until I had a broadhead fail on an elk 0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:54.040 shoulder blade many years later, that I really decided, Hey, 0:43:54.080 --> 0:43:56.880 I need to apply to my background and science mechanical 0:43:56.960 --> 0:44:00.279 engineering to develop a product that's going to perform better here. 0:44:00.800 --> 0:44:03.600 What was what were you interested in a mechanical engineering like, 0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:08.280 why did you become an engineer? Yeah? I was, you know, physics, 0:44:08.880 --> 0:44:11.600 mathematics were just kind of cam natural to me, and 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:15.960 I was I was interested in mechanical designing mechanical design 0:44:16.080 --> 0:44:21.080 and applying applying science to solve problems make better products. Um, 0:44:22.480 --> 0:44:25.600 I mean I enjoyed archery and with the compound because 0:44:25.600 --> 0:44:28.440 there was a lot of you know, mechanical engineering going 0:44:28.480 --> 0:44:32.080 on there. I just wasn't I don't feel like I 0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:35.919 was applying it to errow errow flight broadheads and things 0:44:36.000 --> 0:44:39.120 like that to the degree I I am now certainly 0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:44.560 how long you've been at it now, um, about sixteen 0:44:44.600 --> 0:44:50.520 years now, really engineering broadheads. Yeah, I'm gonna turn it 0:44:50.560 --> 0:44:53.040 over to honest for a minute. All right, you're honest. 0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:57.239 Explained to me. Explain to me what is like like 0:44:57.960 --> 0:44:59.640 based on your understanding as a guy that likes to 0:44:59.640 --> 0:45:03.040 read abo stuff like this, what is the arrow? What 0:45:03.280 --> 0:45:13.920 is the arrow? The current like arrow broadhead controversy. I 0:45:14.000 --> 0:45:18.239 don't know if there's a answer, no, because there's so 0:45:18.360 --> 0:45:22.160 many schools of a little nuance schools of thought. In 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:26.440 the last couple of years, it's been trending more foc 0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:31.120 forward of center, like yeah, there's that, there's the idea 0:45:31.280 --> 0:45:35.000 that heavier arrows are sort of gaining a little bit 0:45:35.080 --> 0:45:38.200 of momentum, I said, I say that, but I also 0:45:38.280 --> 0:45:40.560 wonder if it's not just because of our little circle. 0:45:40.800 --> 0:45:42.600 Like I wonder if you go to actually I don't 0:45:42.640 --> 0:45:44.160 go to a t A. But if I wonder if 0:45:44.200 --> 0:45:45.520 you went to a t A. Do you go to 0:45:45.600 --> 0:45:48.800 a t A? Is it like a talk? Is it 0:45:48.960 --> 0:45:51.640 a thing there? Like? Is also is there like a 0:45:52.120 --> 0:45:57.680 general surge in the definitely speed controversy and O and 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:00.160 it it continues. I think it's just bad right now 0:46:00.239 --> 0:46:04.920 as it's ever been speed, But it wasn't around and 0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:09.360 like the probably like in oh five when the first 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:14.080 super fast carbon you know shafts came along and everybody 0:46:14.160 --> 0:46:17.160 was shooting like eighty five grain heads and everybody showed 0:46:17.200 --> 0:46:20.560 up in camp. Where I come from. My perspective is 0:46:20.640 --> 0:46:22.879 that I started guiding el cuents in the year two 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:25.360 thousand and everybody, for whatever reason, it was like the 0:46:25.560 --> 0:46:29.600 very tail end of still had aluminum shafts and like 0:46:29.800 --> 0:46:33.080 muzzies like what everybody rolled into camp with, and everybody 0:46:33.160 --> 0:46:35.920 just passed shot right through elk. We had like very 0:46:36.000 --> 0:46:39.160 good success with you know shots taken to you know, 0:46:39.280 --> 0:46:43.200 animals found. And then five years later guy would show 0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:45.560 up with rigs where like they'd shoot the target at 0:46:45.600 --> 0:46:48.239 forty yards and you didn't even see the arrow. It 0:46:48.239 --> 0:46:49.840 would just be like stuck in the target all of 0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:54.800 a sudden, and you know, seriously, it's like one of 0:46:54.840 --> 0:46:56.759 those where the guys like throwing the knives and the 0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:00.480 knife just comes out of the board. M And then 0:47:00.600 --> 0:47:04.600 we started seeing you know, very poor penetration. Um. It 0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:07.560 took us a long time and probably well after I 0:47:07.640 --> 0:47:10.640 probably left you know, guiding l cons to realize, you know, 0:47:10.800 --> 0:47:12.800 that that was the root cause of it, that the 0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:16.480 whole system had gotten too light because they liked like 0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.560 people liked it because it was fun as ship to 0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:22.920 shoot it. Yeah, and I think it was flat. It 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:24.800 was like flat, it was fun to shoot at targets, 0:47:24.840 --> 0:47:29.160 flat shooting fast ass arrows. And I think at the time, yeah, 0:47:29.280 --> 0:47:32.520 the the it was it's sold. Probably was the number 0:47:32.600 --> 0:47:35.080 one thing was that it was like new. They came 0:47:35.160 --> 0:47:39.120 up with this the capability to make arrows go really fast, 0:47:39.600 --> 0:47:42.080 and it was like the hot new thing. But I 0:47:42.120 --> 0:47:44.720 don't it hadn't been like tested and it probably worked 0:47:44.800 --> 0:47:47.000 fine on you know white tails and stuff, but it 0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:49.840 just hadn't been proven yet. And it took five or 0:47:49.920 --> 0:47:51.759 ten years. So I guess my question is do you 0:47:51.840 --> 0:47:56.080 feel like back then was there a controversy or people 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:59.360 talking like was there always like a whole backgrowd that 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:01.719 was like none, No, no, you guys are I'm telling 0:48:01.800 --> 0:48:04.719 you that light fast stuff is not gonna work. You 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:08.880 guys should be sticking with heavier arrows. I don't. I 0:48:08.920 --> 0:48:11.040 don't think there was so much. You know, I moved 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:14.960 to Colorado from Wisconsin started elk hunting um two thousand 0:48:15.080 --> 0:48:18.080 four is when? So we started elk cutting bout the 0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:19.800 same time. Yeah, it's two thousand before I got a 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:21.440 shot on a on a nice ball. How are you 0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:23.080 doing for the five years before you got a shot 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:25.759 trying to figure out elk cunting what I was doing? Yeah, 0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:27.920 come on, you don't have a similar story. I know 0:48:28.080 --> 0:48:30.200 you did. I started winging the arrows that coles right 0:48:30.280 --> 0:48:33.600 off the bat. I was losing more than more than 0:48:33.800 --> 0:48:35.799 one or two as well. But yeah, we can get 0:48:35.800 --> 0:48:38.080 into that. I was a successful white tail hunter, and 0:48:38.200 --> 0:48:41.200 everything I knew about white tails was I was steering 0:48:41.239 --> 0:48:42.959 me in the wrong direction for elk and I didn't 0:48:42.960 --> 0:48:44.680 have a lot of you know, mentorship. I just went 0:48:44.719 --> 0:48:47.160 out and tried to figure it out. But UM, so 0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:49.319 I got this shot on a on an elk, hit 0:48:49.360 --> 0:48:52.000 a little forward, hit the shoulder blade really really pretty 0:48:52.040 --> 0:48:54.880 thin part of the scapula with a three blade UM 0:48:55.120 --> 0:48:57.879 you know, cheap chisel point head and did not get 0:48:57.960 --> 0:49:01.239 penetration there. And and I was I had a light 0:49:01.320 --> 0:49:03.279 fast set up at the time, you know, probably a 0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:07.040 little over finder grains UM with a bow I had. 0:49:07.160 --> 0:49:09.719 It wasn't There was not a lot of energy there. 0:49:10.120 --> 0:49:14.600 And that's really what set me off on Okay, and 0:49:14.680 --> 0:49:16.320 I spent five days looking for that out in the 0:49:16.360 --> 0:49:19.800 mountains and um didn't find it. But I got a 0:49:19.840 --> 0:49:21.480 lot of time to think he had been pretty he'd 0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:25.320 been puffed up pretty good. But yeah, I think it 0:49:25.400 --> 0:49:29.880 probably pulled out and live. But yeah, it really bothered 0:49:29.920 --> 0:49:31.719 me that I had become a very you know, high 0:49:31.800 --> 0:49:35.960 level engineer developing products using all the latest and greatest 0:49:36.000 --> 0:49:39.839 tools UM to do world class you know engineering solved 0:49:39.880 --> 0:49:43.120 mechanical problems product development. Really it was kind of the 0:49:43.160 --> 0:49:44.880 go to guy at the companies I worked for to 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:48.120 solve the hardest problems. And I wasn't applying it to 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:50.319 something that was super important to me, which is bow 0:49:50.400 --> 0:49:53.920 hunting success. Um. And right there I kind of was committed, 0:49:54.000 --> 0:49:57.399 I'm gonna I'm gonna research this, see what's been done, 0:49:57.880 --> 0:50:01.480 apply engineering. I know something can get through the shoulder 0:50:01.480 --> 0:50:03.520 blade and get through that elk. I just need there 0:50:03.560 --> 0:50:06.279 needs to be some engineering here. Um. But not at 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:09.680 the time, everything was moving light and fast. I was too, 0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:13.480 and I didn't really hear about anybody saying anything different. Um. 0:50:14.400 --> 0:50:16.480 It was really after I had that failure I started 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:19.120 digging into the research. I found the Ashbury reports back 0:50:19.200 --> 0:50:22.960 then and read them. You know, went went heavy the 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:25.399 next year, six hundred plus green arrow in a big 0:50:25.480 --> 0:50:29.319 long broad head. Um. But then I realized that, hey, 0:50:29.400 --> 0:50:32.879 this doesn't fly verygain the trajectory. This thing nos dies 0:50:33.360 --> 0:50:36.720 about forty yards. And at the same time I realized 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:39.480 that hunting out west for elk and mule deer, man 0:50:39.520 --> 0:50:41.279 I was passing up a lot of elk and mule 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:44.040 deer at fifty fifty five yards because it was outside 0:50:44.080 --> 0:50:46.080 of my range at that time. So I also felt 0:50:46.160 --> 0:50:48.120 like a matter if I could extend my range, I 0:50:48.120 --> 0:50:50.799 could be a much more effective hunter and make more 0:50:51.000 --> 0:50:55.680 you know, make something out of more opportunities here. So um, anyway, 0:50:55.719 --> 0:50:57.960 that that made me just dig into the science behind 0:50:58.080 --> 0:51:02.280 it and and look at masters to speed and broadhead 0:51:02.320 --> 0:51:05.759 design and all that. Real quick, uh, explain to people 0:51:05.800 --> 0:51:07.080 what a chisel head is. That's why to make sure 0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:09.880 people who aren't totally checked out on the terminology and 0:51:09.920 --> 0:51:13.279 know what you're saying. Yeah, So the the point of 0:51:13.719 --> 0:51:17.719 an arrowhead, you can have a cone point, which kind 0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:19.799 of vision what that is, or a chisel point would 0:51:19.800 --> 0:51:21.879 be if you had like three flats making the point, 0:51:22.360 --> 0:51:24.920 I call that a chisel point. There's versions of that 0:51:25.120 --> 0:51:27.960 that might be dished out and those are called choker points. 0:51:28.080 --> 0:51:33.040 But it's basically um, the front of the ferrell um 0:51:33.880 --> 0:51:35.880 makes a point. It's not really a blade, it's not 0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:38.640 really not gonna shave with it, but it comes to 0:51:38.719 --> 0:51:41.880 a point. And then those typically have some replacement blades 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:45.279 that are inserted behind it, like the old muzzy thunderhead. 0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:47.080 There's a lot of them that were like that. So 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:49.480 those three flat surfaces that come to a point, or 0:51:49.520 --> 0:51:51.200 like you said, you'll see on some brands where it's 0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:53.160 dished out a little bit kind of give it more 0:51:53.200 --> 0:51:55.000 of a sharp edge of the chisel point. Right, Those 0:51:55.040 --> 0:51:57.719 cut better than a calm point. For instance, they'll take 0:51:57.800 --> 0:52:02.000 less force to to push through to hide muscles, but 0:52:02.080 --> 0:52:06.759 they're not considered a cut on contact. They're really not in. Really, 0:52:06.840 --> 0:52:09.560 that's the biggest revelation I had in ten years of 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:14.920 broadhead development is how important sharpness and retension are UM 0:52:15.440 --> 0:52:17.919 and being able to cut. You know, you could take 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:19.920 you can take a lot of broadheads, put them on 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:21.840 an arrow, and let's say you got a downed animal. 0:52:22.239 --> 0:52:23.960 You're just gonna try to push in and say the 0:52:24.040 --> 0:52:27.120 hide and muscle, and you can't. You can't do it. Um, 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:29.959 there's just a points a lot of times not very sharp, 0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:31.719 and it takes a lot of force to push them 0:52:32.080 --> 0:52:35.080 through the hide. Um. Even some three blade kind of 0:52:35.120 --> 0:52:39.200 one piece broadheads. Um, often those aren't that sharp. And 0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:41.440 I didn't realize that either. A lot of broadheads aren't 0:52:41.440 --> 0:52:44.160 really that sharp out of the box. I a lot 0:52:44.280 --> 0:52:47.400 of people don't realize that. A lot of people. No, 0:52:47.600 --> 0:52:49.719 I didn't. I thought, well, it's a broadhead that's got 0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:51.399 blade on it. Of course it's going to be sharp. 0:52:51.480 --> 0:52:54.120 But sure it comes with a warning that says, watch out, 0:52:54.160 --> 0:52:57.040 you're gonna cut cut the hell out of your fingers. 0:52:57.200 --> 0:53:01.960 But yeah, it could, it can be harper I've found out. Yeah, 0:53:02.040 --> 0:53:04.000 that's one of the things UM I was doing is 0:53:04.120 --> 0:53:07.840 measuring the forced push these different broadheads down through hide 0:53:07.960 --> 0:53:11.560 muscle or hide muscle scapula using an insta machine, which 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:14.640 is you know, I can control a velocity and very 0:53:14.719 --> 0:53:16.880 accurately as a load cell, I can accurately measure the 0:53:16.920 --> 0:53:20.080 force to penetrate. And there's a one to one there. 0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:22.640 If it's if you cut the force and half to penetrate, 0:53:22.640 --> 0:53:25.879 you're gonna go twice as far you know through Back 0:53:25.920 --> 0:53:28.239 backed that up against it again, Yeah, I wish you 0:53:28.360 --> 0:53:31.200 back all the way back up to the machine. Well, 0:53:31.239 --> 0:53:33.600 I was gonna tell them about our our meat tenderness 0:53:33.680 --> 0:53:37.080 testing machine, but I'll save them. It's probably not too 0:53:37.600 --> 0:53:39.680 That's what the first thing I thought. Yeah, so backing 0:53:39.760 --> 0:53:43.239 up to the machine again. Yes, So this machine, it 0:53:43.360 --> 0:53:47.000 has UM basically servo motors driving down ahead and there's 0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:49.600 a load cell in it so it's accurately measuring force. 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:53.600 And then I can mount I can mount different broadheads 0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:57.960 in there, and I'll have you know, a tray underneath 0:53:58.000 --> 0:54:02.160 it with I've done it with UM, you know, a 0:54:02.239 --> 0:54:04.520 hind quarter with hide on it, for instance, to look 0:54:04.560 --> 0:54:07.120 at the force to push down through hide and muscle. 0:54:07.280 --> 0:54:08.920 Can you just stick a road kill deer on there 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:14.040 and you can? Basically, yeah, I was light. I've used 0:54:14.080 --> 0:54:17.680 odd Dad before, which is it's kind of similar in size, 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:20.520 maybe a little thicker bone. Um. I've used moose moose 0:54:20.600 --> 0:54:23.560 hide and moose moose parts as well. But you probably 0:54:23.560 --> 0:54:25.400 gotta be careful because at some point if you just 0:54:25.840 --> 0:54:28.040 like mess up this meat too much, you're gonna get 0:54:28.080 --> 0:54:31.239 a call from the Game of Fish right for want 0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:34.240 and waste. So, like, what's the recipe after you punch 0:54:34.440 --> 0:54:41.320 these arrows through a thousand Yeah, keep it cold and 0:54:41.360 --> 0:54:43.600 then make it into burger when you're done. Yeah, I 0:54:43.640 --> 0:54:47.600 guess burger is the answer. Um, but yeah we can. 0:54:48.640 --> 0:54:51.760 But so, just so I'm clear, it's not like somehow 0:54:51.840 --> 0:54:54.600 and maybe I'm just not understanding force clear enough. But 0:54:54.640 --> 0:54:58.319 when it's pushing through, you can equate that too. How 0:54:58.520 --> 0:55:01.080 fast that arrow had have been going when it hit. 0:55:01.440 --> 0:55:05.120 It's not just like a pressure pushing at the time. 0:55:05.239 --> 0:55:07.520 It's that can be equated to how fast that air 0:55:07.680 --> 0:55:11.040 is moving when it hit. I'm measuring the force it 0:55:11.120 --> 0:55:14.200 takes to go through and it is this a good 0:55:14.239 --> 0:55:16.160 time to get into the Yeah, it's probably a good 0:55:16.239 --> 0:55:18.560 I can see though, I can see that whatever you're 0:55:18.600 --> 0:55:20.759 talking about with whenever you're gonna go down the road 0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:23.680 later in factor in speed and all that ship that 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:29.600 a reasonable thing to look at would be what does 0:55:29.640 --> 0:55:33.440 it actually take to shove it through there? Like that 0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:36.279 seems like a great first question to ask. Well, I 0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:39.000 think it's what everybody was missing, and I think they're 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:42.600 still missing it today a lot. There's this mass versus speed, 0:55:42.800 --> 0:55:45.759 but that's only that's part of the equation. The other 0:55:45.880 --> 0:55:47.680 one or if we if we think about it an 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:51.320 energy and um, yeah, let me draw this, but the 0:55:51.520 --> 0:55:54.920 force is key here. Force. Um. If you can reduce 0:55:55.000 --> 0:55:57.120 the force, you increase the distance. It's kind of one 0:55:57.200 --> 0:55:59.520 to one um. And I think everybody was missing that. 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:02.080 But he's really looking at when you're saying. When you 0:56:02.160 --> 0:56:05.160 say that, you're talking about reducing the force to penetrate, 0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:10.200 your increasing the distance that you will get after the penetration. Um, 0:56:10.520 --> 0:56:14.480 during the penetration, during penetration, right the initial penetration. I 0:56:14.600 --> 0:56:17.560 guess like, let's say I had the sharpest needle on 0:56:17.640 --> 0:56:22.520 the planet, Okay, and I flick it at you perfect 0:56:22.680 --> 0:56:25.120 like a sharp dart and then I have a real 0:56:25.239 --> 0:56:27.719 dold dart and I flick it at you the same 0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:32.360 which you're gonna would you rather be hit you with? Yeah, obviously, 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:35.120 because it's gonna go in really easy. Yeah. Or I 0:56:35.160 --> 0:56:38.200 think about cutting a roast. If you've got a really 0:56:38.239 --> 0:56:41.640 sharp knife, minimal force to cut down through that, right, 0:56:42.160 --> 0:56:44.440 take a butter knife. It's going to take a tremendous 0:56:44.520 --> 0:56:46.279 monet force. But I don't think a lot of people 0:56:46.320 --> 0:56:48.520 think about that. You know, for whatever energy you have, 0:56:49.440 --> 0:56:54.080 it's going to create some force over distance, and reducing 0:56:54.160 --> 0:56:56.640 that force to penetrate will give you the max distance 0:56:57.160 --> 0:56:59.799 with whatever your set up is, light or heavy air 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:02.759 or whatever your boy is. And I think I think 0:57:02.840 --> 0:57:06.600 that's missed a lot, and it's a huge factor when 0:57:06.640 --> 0:57:11.760 you're getting there to everything around uh, broadheads, arrow setups, 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:14.160 both setups. You're looking at a number of things you 0:57:14.239 --> 0:57:16.400 brought up a bunch of times, like there's physics, right, 0:57:17.440 --> 0:57:20.160 and we've addressed it. Where we had on that we 0:57:20.240 --> 0:57:22.439 had on a guest I don't know, some some months 0:57:22.480 --> 0:57:25.320 ago in an episode called The Archer's Paradox, where we 0:57:25.400 --> 0:57:28.880 had an ophthalmologist who spent many, many years how many 0:57:28.960 --> 0:57:33.800 years at Ashby seven years studying arrow broadhead like bow 0:57:34.080 --> 0:57:37.640 arrow broadhead performance. Okay, and he has these sort of 0:57:37.680 --> 0:57:42.240 like rules and they seem to be right, Like I 0:57:42.320 --> 0:57:43.680 would look at me like, oh, this is a very 0:57:43.720 --> 0:57:47.120 scientific approach, Like it's not anecdotal, it's not well, here's 0:57:47.120 --> 0:57:49.840 what my buddy said. He's like trying to apply numbers 0:57:49.920 --> 0:57:55.880 to it. Okay, Um, how is there how is the 0:57:56.040 --> 0:58:01.479 room for multiple interpretations if that's the case. Yeah, there's 0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:04.440 a there's a lot there. So you know, dr at Ashby, I, um, 0:58:04.520 --> 0:58:08.640 I know, I've talked to him several times. He there's 0:58:08.640 --> 0:58:10.880 a few things there. Um. And and really the reason 0:58:12.360 --> 0:58:15.120 I'm here is too explain some of the some of 0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:17.640 his points that don't quite agree with with physics and 0:58:17.760 --> 0:58:20.680 laws of science. This is how you and I became acquaintances. 0:58:21.120 --> 0:58:23.760 It is is you've sent me a follow up note 0:58:24.000 --> 0:58:27.640 about some things that want ought to consider right from 0:58:27.680 --> 0:58:30.280 an engineering standpoint. Yeah, and I thought to come onto 0:58:30.280 --> 0:58:32.000 the show and explain this. Yeah. And I've talked to 0:58:32.080 --> 0:58:34.960 dr Ashby and and really we agree about we agree 0:58:35.040 --> 0:58:36.920 on a lot of things. But um, there's a few 0:58:36.960 --> 0:58:39.880 things that he says that you know, when and really 0:58:40.360 --> 0:58:42.760 his his studies were the first thing I found in 0:58:42.840 --> 0:58:45.520 two thousand four, after I had that broadhead fail and 0:58:45.640 --> 0:58:47.360 elk shoulder blade, I was really trying to dig into 0:58:47.360 --> 0:58:49.640 the research. So, um, you know, I've got a lot 0:58:49.680 --> 0:58:51.400 of respect for the guy in the time he put in, 0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:54.440 but a lot of his his studies were um with 0:58:54.640 --> 0:59:00.120 a longbow on cape buffalo or Asian buffalo. And and 0:59:00.280 --> 0:59:02.520 he's a he's an eye doctor, but he's not an 0:59:02.760 --> 0:59:06.600 engineer or a scientist in the way his and really 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:09.480 there's there's a way you design experiments, you know, it's 0:59:09.600 --> 0:59:12.120 design of experiments and structuring them in such a way 0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:15.080 that you make sure the results you get out of 0:59:15.160 --> 0:59:22.000 them are are valid. Um. And so as you said, uh, 0:59:22.800 --> 0:59:25.280 I felt it would probably scientific research too. But as 0:59:25.320 --> 0:59:26.840 I dig more and more into it, there was a 0:59:26.920 --> 0:59:29.360 lot of you know, I tried this and then I 0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.520 tried this other thing, and there's in the way it's structured, 0:59:32.600 --> 0:59:36.680 there's not Um, it's difficult, you know, when a number 0:59:36.680 --> 0:59:39.480 of things change at once, it's difficult to quantify and 0:59:39.520 --> 0:59:41.720 put numbers to things. So I think there's some issues 0:59:42.440 --> 0:59:45.800 like that, and there's some also some issues with some 0:59:45.880 --> 0:59:48.080 things that just go against you know, the laws of physics. 0:59:48.960 --> 0:59:51.600 That's that's tough. It is. You know, as a as 0:59:51.640 --> 0:59:56.560 an engineer basically and mechanical engineering is you know, I've 0:59:56.640 --> 0:59:59.280 learned the science, the physics and material science and then 0:59:59.320 --> 1:00:03.000 I apply the laws of physics to you know, solve problems, 1:00:03.040 --> 1:00:07.080 designed better products. So if if somebody is saying something 1:00:07.160 --> 1:00:10.760 that's going against the laws of physics, there's something wrong there. Um, 1:00:12.240 --> 1:00:16.880 there's something he didn't quite understand with the testing. Explain 1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:19.560 how like some of the formulas that go into what 1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:22.840 happens when you shoot your bow at something. Yeah, So 1:00:23.560 --> 1:00:26.760 let's talk about conservation of energy first. So your bow 1:00:27.760 --> 1:00:32.120 has some draw force curve. Um, So as you drop back, 1:00:32.200 --> 1:00:35.640 there's a you know, there's a force at each distance back, 1:00:36.000 --> 1:00:38.360 and then as you let go of it, that string 1:00:38.440 --> 1:00:41.520 applies that force to the arrow and you have a 1:00:41.560 --> 1:00:45.160 certain amount of energy and that's that's that force times 1:00:45.240 --> 1:00:47.840 distance or that area under that draw force curve, and 1:00:47.920 --> 1:00:50.800 that's gonna be constant for the bow. So I mean 1:00:50.920 --> 1:00:53.120 I want to ask a question about that. Yeah, I 1:00:53.200 --> 1:00:55.400 get the thing where let's say your bow you pull 1:00:55.440 --> 1:00:58.760 back and your your bow max is at eighty pounds. Okay, yeah, 1:00:59.360 --> 1:01:07.200 why does it matter how long you apply that force 1:01:07.320 --> 1:01:10.360 to the arrow? Meaning if it does it for twelve 1:01:10.440 --> 1:01:15.360 inches or does it for five yards? So it does 1:01:15.400 --> 1:01:18.200 it for twelve inches or does it for in or whatever? 1:01:19.400 --> 1:01:21.560 At a point, like, why does it matter anymore? It's 1:01:21.680 --> 1:01:25.760 moving it at that speed. Um, well, it gets to 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:28.320 be a higher speed if it's applied longer. You know 1:01:28.400 --> 1:01:33.520 that is that infinite? Yeah? You know? So that's Newton's 1:01:33.520 --> 1:01:37.040 second law motion is force equals mass times acceleration. So 1:01:38.520 --> 1:01:42.040 as long as you're applying force here, increasing that acceleration, 1:01:42.760 --> 1:01:48.400 and it's going to keep going faster. But here's the thing, like, Okay, 1:01:48.480 --> 1:01:50.560 let's say I'm moving my phone across I'm moving my 1:01:50.600 --> 1:01:53.160 phone across the table, and I'm pushing it at X speed. 1:01:53.240 --> 1:01:56.160 So I'm using my arm to push my phone. Now, 1:01:56.200 --> 1:01:59.240 if I pushed my phone for an inch at a 1:01:59.280 --> 1:02:02.480 certain speed, right, it's gonna do whatever it does. It 1:02:02.520 --> 1:02:04.720 will slide away from my finger when I stop. If 1:02:04.760 --> 1:02:06.720 I pushed my phone at that speed for twelve inches 1:02:06.720 --> 1:02:09.200 and then stop, it's not like the phone skiters across 1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:14.480 the table a lot further. No, but you did more work. 1:02:14.600 --> 1:02:17.800 You didn't put more energy. Yeah, but the phone didn't 1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:23.560 didn't harness that energy. Well, that d when you let 1:02:23.600 --> 1:02:26.720 go of it, the fourth stops and the drag drag 1:02:26.800 --> 1:02:30.840 brings it to a stop. Understand what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:34.680 but I don't know why you don't understand why it's 1:02:34.760 --> 1:02:37.280 like not working. Let me put it this way. Let's 1:02:37.320 --> 1:02:39.840 say you're driving down the road. Okay, alright, you're driving 1:02:39.840 --> 1:02:41.840 down round your car and you're going thirty miles an 1:02:42.440 --> 1:02:44.200 If you go, if you drive your car for thirty 1:02:44.240 --> 1:02:46.920 miles an hour, for a mile, and then take your 1:02:46.960 --> 1:02:52.840 foot off, uh, the accelerator, you're gonna coast whatever distance. 1:02:53.720 --> 1:02:56.720 If you drive your car for one miles at thirty 1:02:56.760 --> 1:02:59.000 miles an hour and take your foot off the accelerator, 1:02:59.040 --> 1:03:03.360 it's not just gonna go farther. It's gonna colost the 1:03:03.400 --> 1:03:06.160 same distance. Your car doesn't give a ship how long 1:03:06.600 --> 1:03:10.120 it was pushed at some speed. Yeah. So the difference 1:03:10.200 --> 1:03:13.720 there is that once it's up, what's you're maintaining a velocity? 1:03:14.520 --> 1:03:18.840 If there's no acceleration, there's a force balance there. Um, 1:03:20.720 --> 1:03:22.760 So fource equals mass times acceleration. So it's just the 1:03:22.800 --> 1:03:25.600 acceleration so example, I would be saying, it's more like 1:03:26.080 --> 1:03:30.320 you kept your accelerator to the floor for longer, and 1:03:30.400 --> 1:03:33.880 now you're going faster, you know at the end. Oh yeah, 1:03:33.920 --> 1:03:36.320 I got So maybe I'm with you. That's a good point. 1:03:36.520 --> 1:03:39.000 So maybe when you were asking if it's infinite, maybe 1:03:39.880 --> 1:03:43.479 it's only it's not infinite because it can only once 1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:48.440 it achieves maximum acceleration. That's when it ends. Right. So 1:03:48.560 --> 1:03:52.320 that bow that we're drawing back at some point there's 1:03:52.360 --> 1:03:54.800 a max there's an end to how much it can 1:03:54.840 --> 1:03:57.240 accelerate the air. So in the case of your bow 1:03:57.640 --> 1:04:01.200 having a thirty instr length in stet of twenty, you're 1:04:01.200 --> 1:04:03.840 getting that force applied longer, and you're gonna get a 1:04:03.960 --> 1:04:05.800 higher speed out of the arrow when it comes off 1:04:05.840 --> 1:04:08.520 the bow. But it's like a constant acceleration. It's not 1:04:08.720 --> 1:04:13.680 like it's going it's a constant acceleration. It's not like 1:04:13.800 --> 1:04:17.040 it's like maxing out like at this point in your release. 1:04:17.160 --> 1:04:20.200 But there's a point when it has to become redundant, right. 1:04:20.240 --> 1:04:22.360 But I think in the context of drawing a bow, 1:04:22.440 --> 1:04:25.200 it just continues to accelerate for that like length of time. 1:04:25.240 --> 1:04:26.880 I think that's why like a lot of the target 1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:30.200 archers shoot those huge acts lax bows, and having like 1:04:30.800 --> 1:04:33.760 your draw length is like such a mechanical advantage, Like 1:04:33.840 --> 1:04:36.760 you can increase it by three inches and get like 1:04:36.800 --> 1:04:40.160 an extra twenty per second. The equation is pretty simple 1:04:40.240 --> 1:04:43.919 that that explains that just conservation of energy. It's force 1:04:44.000 --> 1:04:47.840 times distance. It's gonna be equal to one half MV squared. 1:04:48.520 --> 1:04:50.680 So you're both doing this work on the arrow, which 1:04:50.760 --> 1:04:53.919 is that force times distance, and that's gonna be equal. 1:04:54.120 --> 1:04:56.560 It's going to be converted to kinetic energy. There's some 1:04:56.640 --> 1:05:00.560 slight losses in sound and heat, but mainly that's what's happening. 1:05:01.360 --> 1:05:02.720 I don't want I don't want to be dead horse 1:05:02.760 --> 1:05:06.080 by like. I will move on understanding that I don't 1:05:06.160 --> 1:05:09.920 understand it. But here's the thing. When I say infinite, 1:05:09.960 --> 1:05:15.360 I mean what what what? What do you guys use 1:05:15.480 --> 1:05:17.520 Let's say, if you have an eighty pound like you 1:05:17.640 --> 1:05:20.400 you pulling eighty pound bow? Okay, so what what number 1:05:20.440 --> 1:05:23.680 would you use as an engineer to like describe what 1:05:23.840 --> 1:05:29.640 that pressure is or what and you got an arrow 1:05:29.720 --> 1:05:36.320 on there? Now, if some guy had a fifty inch 1:05:36.400 --> 1:05:39.360 draw length or a sixty inch draw length at some 1:05:39.720 --> 1:05:43.360 point it seems to me that that arrow is just 1:05:43.440 --> 1:05:46.600 gonna be going to speed. It's gonna go when it 1:05:46.720 --> 1:05:49.840 leaves the string, And it doesn't matter if you've if 1:05:49.880 --> 1:05:52.439 it's a sixty in straw or a thirty in straw. 1:05:52.560 --> 1:05:57.120 At some point, the arrow is gonna harness whatever it's 1:05:57.120 --> 1:06:04.080 gonna harness from that speed. No, No, I mean, here's 1:06:04.160 --> 1:06:06.680 here's the I mean, here's the equation force times distance 1:06:07.040 --> 1:06:11.160 equals one half mb squared. Okay, so if that distance increases, 1:06:11.920 --> 1:06:14.760 it will come off with a higher velocity. No, I mean, 1:06:14.840 --> 1:06:21.040 but it can never go faster than the string, can they? Well, 1:06:21.120 --> 1:06:23.680 I should ask you if you measured if you took 1:06:23.720 --> 1:06:26.280 a thing that they used to measure, like someone's fastball, 1:06:27.000 --> 1:06:30.880 and you measured the movement of the string. Well, you 1:06:30.920 --> 1:06:34.480 know you're right. I'll tell you what you're right. It's 1:06:34.600 --> 1:06:37.080 like if you took the bow. I know you're not 1:06:37.120 --> 1:06:38.919 supposed to because you'll blow your limbs up. But let's 1:06:38.920 --> 1:06:43.960 say you could shoot your bow with no arrow on it. Right, 1:06:44.640 --> 1:06:46.560 that string probably moves a hell of a lot faster 1:06:47.400 --> 1:06:51.840 than it would with an arrow on it. Does I'm 1:06:51.880 --> 1:06:55.440 ready to move on now. Now I'm with you. Now, 1:06:55.520 --> 1:06:59.280 I'm with you. And it's because that arrow was slowing 1:06:59.400 --> 1:07:01.640 that string out it is, and that's actually why you 1:07:01.680 --> 1:07:04.120 get a little more momentum out of a heavier arrow, 1:07:04.880 --> 1:07:07.480 because it's being pushed a little slower. I said, talk 1:07:07.520 --> 1:07:09.320 myself into that one. But I'm I'm my I'm on 1:07:09.440 --> 1:07:17.040 step now. Okay, yeah, good, So that at least understand 1:07:17.120 --> 1:07:19.880 that didn't at least understand my question. Yeah, I wasn't 1:07:19.920 --> 1:07:22.160 thinking about it that it's carrying the lower that arrow 1:07:22.200 --> 1:07:25.640 and it's it's like, yeah, it's going to start out 1:07:25.720 --> 1:07:29.920 slower and then just increase as the arrow gets one man. 1:07:39.480 --> 1:07:41.400 You know, whatever your draw if you can draw along, 1:07:41.520 --> 1:07:43.440 if your draw force is longer, or you have a 1:07:43.520 --> 1:07:46.400 higher force, those are both going to increase the energy 1:07:46.520 --> 1:07:48.440 going to the arrow, you know, kind of one to 1:07:48.520 --> 1:07:51.120 one and then you have you know, one half mv 1:07:51.240 --> 1:07:54.760 square is the kinetic energy of the arrow, and then 1:07:54.880 --> 1:07:58.200 at the target, that kinetic energy is going to be 1:07:58.320 --> 1:08:02.320 converted back to work on the row. So now that 1:08:02.560 --> 1:08:05.520 energy is going to apply this force times distance to 1:08:05.680 --> 1:08:10.840 penetrate you know, through the target. And and this is 1:08:10.880 --> 1:08:13.240 part of the controversy out there, if it's if the 1:08:13.320 --> 1:08:16.840 target is safe foam that has a constant force to 1:08:16.880 --> 1:08:21.800 push through, and it's not velocity dependent, it's um. So 1:08:22.120 --> 1:08:24.519 for a given bow, it's kind of a constant energy 1:08:24.600 --> 1:08:28.880 machine or constant kinetic energy machine that whatever arrow weight 1:08:29.000 --> 1:08:31.320 you shoot out of there, it's getting the same force 1:08:31.360 --> 1:08:34.799 times distance applied to it. So we'll have very similar 1:08:34.880 --> 1:08:38.280 kinetic energy of that arrow, no matter if it's for me. 1:08:38.479 --> 1:08:40.479 For me, I just tested a four and fifty grain 1:08:40.600 --> 1:08:43.840 arrow and a five and fifty grain arrow and the 1:08:43.920 --> 1:08:46.920 kinetic energy and I measure the velocity get kinetic energy, 1:08:46.960 --> 1:08:48.720 and they were within about two percent of each other. 1:08:49.120 --> 1:08:50.840 That's what I've seen over a lot of people's data 1:08:51.600 --> 1:08:54.160 is kinetic energy is pretty constant within a few percent 1:08:54.640 --> 1:08:57.320 from a given bow UM, where a little more mass 1:08:57.360 --> 1:08:59.519 will make it a little more more efficient, a little 1:08:59.600 --> 1:09:04.280 less energy losses with sound or friction. But so if 1:09:04.320 --> 1:09:07.639 the force to penetrate the target is relatively constant, like fall. 1:09:07.800 --> 1:09:13.400 Did you say energy loss through sound? Yes? Uh yeah, 1:09:13.479 --> 1:09:16.040 so um, you know sound that you hear will be 1:09:16.080 --> 1:09:18.679 a little bit of energy loss. So I never thought 1:09:18.880 --> 1:09:23.960 like that. Yeah, like wind drag or like you know, 1:09:24.000 --> 1:09:28.280 you're shoot an air in here, that's energy loss. Yeah, 1:09:28.520 --> 1:09:31.479 but it's not the drag itself. You're saying. The actual 1:09:31.680 --> 1:09:35.640 sound that it's making is the energy loss. Yeah, that 1:09:35.760 --> 1:09:39.200 vibration which we pick up a sound, there's energy loss there. 1:09:39.840 --> 1:09:43.520 There's energy losses due to friction when just whatever surfaces 1:09:43.560 --> 1:09:47.800 are rubbing against each other. UM. And and that um 1:09:48.520 --> 1:09:50.040 you know, the veins through the air, that's a friction 1:09:50.120 --> 1:09:52.680 loss too. And there's a little bit of heat that 1:09:52.760 --> 1:09:54.840 happens whenever there's friction. There's a small amount of heat, 1:09:54.840 --> 1:09:57.200 and that's how you lose energy there. But these are 1:09:57.640 --> 1:10:01.120 there's a small factors. Basically, what's happening that force times distance. 1:10:01.640 --> 1:10:04.439 We'll give you that kinetic energy and then an impact 1:10:04.840 --> 1:10:10.120 UM whatever energy you have, it'll equal some force times 1:10:10.200 --> 1:10:13.840 distance through the target. And a big revelation to me 1:10:14.120 --> 1:10:17.240 was that if I can reduce that force that takes 1:10:17.320 --> 1:10:20.280 to penetrate, I get more distance one to one. You 1:10:20.320 --> 1:10:22.360 can cut that force in half. You can go twice 1:10:22.400 --> 1:10:25.720 the distance. And probably the biggest revelation I found was 1:10:26.360 --> 1:10:29.120 just the importance of sharpness and edgey tension and how 1:10:29.240 --> 1:10:32.160 much you can reduce that force um just by having 1:10:32.840 --> 1:10:37.040 very sharp, hard edges that are durable enough. UM. But 1:10:37.280 --> 1:10:41.760 retain that sharpness and slide through. But part of the 1:10:41.800 --> 1:10:46.040 controversy even more lately is that the people that are 1:10:46.080 --> 1:10:48.600 onto speed and energy, they'll shoot two arrows in a 1:10:48.680 --> 1:10:51.280 target out of a bow too, into a phone target 1:10:51.360 --> 1:10:54.280 and show that these two arrows penetrate the same distance 1:10:54.320 --> 1:10:57.960 into phone um and they should because they have the 1:10:58.040 --> 1:11:01.080 same kinetic energy within a couple of per scent, and 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:03.639 that energy is going to apply some force times distance 1:11:03.800 --> 1:11:08.479 and if the forces um not velocity dependent, you know, 1:11:08.640 --> 1:11:12.280 fairly constant, they'll both go the same distance. So that's 1:11:12.320 --> 1:11:16.840 kind of been the argument on the light fast people saying, hey, 1:11:16.880 --> 1:11:18.720 it doesn't matter how heavy your arrow is, it's going 1:11:18.800 --> 1:11:23.040 the same distance through foam or blissic gael. The problem 1:11:23.120 --> 1:11:25.439 is it's really target dependent, and when you have an 1:11:25.479 --> 1:11:29.800 animal there's I believe there's a velocity dependence there. You know, 1:11:29.840 --> 1:11:33.040 there's been some studies that show that, you know, muscle 1:11:33.080 --> 1:11:36.559 tissue and organs are visco elastic, so that means they're 1:11:37.600 --> 1:11:40.400 the forces share dependent. So the faster you're cutting on, 1:11:40.520 --> 1:11:46.360 the higher the force goes up. So in that case 1:11:46.560 --> 1:11:50.599 mass mass is a benefit um and you can work 1:11:50.640 --> 1:11:53.560 through the calculus and the equations on this. But just 1:11:53.680 --> 1:11:56.479 give you an example. For me, if I shoot my 1:11:57.520 --> 1:12:03.599 four and fifty grade arrow rain arrow um, I estimate 1:12:03.840 --> 1:12:07.599 if there's a velocity dependence on force that's um linear. 1:12:07.760 --> 1:12:12.799 I estimate I'll get about more penetration to say muscle 1:12:13.520 --> 1:12:17.720 um by having higher mass that's going from four to 1:12:17.800 --> 1:12:21.200 five fifty. So I believe I believe both sides have 1:12:21.320 --> 1:12:24.080 it a little bit wrong. I think the the high 1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:26.760 speed guys that are saying it only kinetic energy is 1:12:26.760 --> 1:12:29.880 all that matters. I believe there is a mass factor 1:12:29.960 --> 1:12:31.280 to it, and I believe a lot of people that 1:12:31.360 --> 1:12:34.720 have have shot heavier arrows have had that experience on 1:12:34.840 --> 1:12:37.000 animals that yeah, I'm getting a little more penetration here 1:12:37.040 --> 1:12:42.080 with this higher mass um. So I think that's that's 1:12:42.120 --> 1:12:43.680 why they have it a bit wrong. But I think 1:12:43.720 --> 1:12:46.599 also on their side, like dr at ashby Law, those 1:12:46.640 --> 1:12:50.200 followers say it's all mass um and they make out 1:12:50.280 --> 1:12:52.200 to the mass is a huge factor, and I don't 1:12:52.240 --> 1:12:54.120 think it's that big of a factor. I feel like 1:12:54.200 --> 1:12:57.240 you know, for me that four five fifty grains, I 1:12:57.439 --> 1:12:59.560 estimate that will be about a ten percent increase in 1:12:59.600 --> 1:13:03.439 penetrate asan um and that's true. Say muscle tissue like that, 1:13:05.200 --> 1:13:08.559 would you gain another teen percent going another hundred grains 1:13:08.840 --> 1:13:11.720 to six fifty? I think so, I think a fifty 1:13:11.800 --> 1:13:16.280 probably another And it's so it's so target dependent though, 1:13:16.439 --> 1:13:19.160 really and what are you what are you going through? Um? 1:13:20.680 --> 1:13:25.600 If you're going through bones, then then I think that 1:13:25.920 --> 1:13:29.920 momentum and like I said to that, I finally get 1:13:29.920 --> 1:13:32.080 about tem percent more momentum out of out of that 1:13:32.240 --> 1:13:38.439 heavier arrow as well. And for bone penetration, it's really 1:13:38.520 --> 1:13:42.320 that the force times time. So this is Newton's second law. 1:13:42.400 --> 1:13:47.000 Motion is force equals mass times acceleration, and then acceleration 1:13:47.080 --> 1:13:49.960 is change of velocity over time. So if you just 1:13:50.720 --> 1:13:52.840 move time over to the side, you get forced times 1:13:52.920 --> 1:13:58.640 time equals mass times change in velocity or change the 1:13:58.680 --> 1:14:02.320 momentum was force times time And you're moving to the 1:14:02.400 --> 1:14:05.240 other side now because we're slowing down as it's going 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:08.360 through the animal. Well, it's it's because I want to 1:14:08.400 --> 1:14:13.680 isolate momentum and explain how momentum helps you. So momentum 1:14:15.200 --> 1:14:19.000 that impact will apply some force impulse this force times 1:14:19.080 --> 1:14:23.679 time and I've done a lot of product shock testing 1:14:23.760 --> 1:14:26.760 in the past. Will we'll design develop a product and 1:14:26.840 --> 1:14:30.160 then we'll shock it at higher and higher levels to 1:14:30.280 --> 1:14:32.800 see when it breaks. And what I've learned from that 1:14:33.240 --> 1:14:39.280 is there's just a damaged boundary curve um theory. But 1:14:39.520 --> 1:14:43.360 it's you need. You need to apply a force for 1:14:43.400 --> 1:14:45.719 an amount of time. You can have an infinitely high force. 1:14:45.840 --> 1:14:49.519 If it's too short and duration, it doesn't break anything. Right, 1:14:50.040 --> 1:14:52.880 Like I could apply a thousand pounds to your nose 1:14:53.000 --> 1:14:55.559 for a millisecond and and it wouldn't hurt at all. 1:14:55.640 --> 1:14:57.720 But if I applied it for a second, you know, 1:14:57.840 --> 1:15:01.240 it would break your nose. So a lot of things 1:15:01.280 --> 1:15:03.240 act like that. They need a given force for a 1:15:03.280 --> 1:15:08.599 given amount of time to break um. So momentum equals 1:15:08.640 --> 1:15:12.160 force times time. Having that temper cent higher momentum might 1:15:12.280 --> 1:15:17.280 just get you over that threshold to break. And it's 1:15:17.280 --> 1:15:20.200 another thing with with um dr Ashby. He said, there's 1:15:20.240 --> 1:15:26.080 a sixty grain threshold. Velocity doesn't matter, it's just mass, 1:15:26.840 --> 1:15:29.800 and a lot of people have just run with that, 1:15:30.040 --> 1:15:32.760 and there's a few there's a couple of things that 1:15:33.400 --> 1:15:35.280 are kind of wrong with that. For one, you need 1:15:35.880 --> 1:15:39.000 you need velocity because it's really that mass times velocity 1:15:39.520 --> 1:15:42.240 that gives you this impulse, force, force times time it's 1:15:42.280 --> 1:15:46.240 gonna be able to break something, um something, And one 1:15:46.240 --> 1:15:47.680 of the things we're talking about here is something being 1:15:47.760 --> 1:15:51.560 like through a bone, like right, well, there has to 1:15:51.600 --> 1:15:54.439 be some minimum velocity, right, because it just won't work 1:15:54.520 --> 1:15:56.600 at zero velocity. Right. And I've said that over the 1:15:56.600 --> 1:15:58.200 phone to theme, like if I throw that arrow at 1:15:58.240 --> 1:16:00.280 a cape buffalo, it's not going through that bone, right, 1:16:00.400 --> 1:16:04.920 So it's not just mass um and uh, And I 1:16:04.960 --> 1:16:09.519 think he understands that, but I think he, you know, 1:16:09.640 --> 1:16:12.559 his his world is ah is a long bow shooting 1:16:12.600 --> 1:16:15.599 fifteen to twenty yards at a cape buffalo. And that's 1:16:15.640 --> 1:16:17.840 really what he was after, you know, getting through that 1:16:18.000 --> 1:16:21.280 high in that um like a three quarter in thick 1:16:21.520 --> 1:16:24.880 flat rib bone. And that's what all his work work 1:16:25.000 --> 1:16:28.160 is around. And it's gonna be so target and dependent. 1:16:28.280 --> 1:16:31.200 You know what, what what momentum or what force impulse 1:16:31.240 --> 1:16:33.640 does it take to break the bone depends on what 1:16:33.760 --> 1:16:36.519 the bone is, right. I mean that that should be 1:16:36.600 --> 1:16:40.519 obvious to people that a scapula is thinner than maybe 1:16:40.560 --> 1:16:43.400 lower on the shoulder bone to a leg bone. And 1:16:44.800 --> 1:16:46.320 so that's one side of it. It depends on what 1:16:46.400 --> 1:16:48.080 the bone is. The other thing is that depends on 1:16:48.160 --> 1:16:50.400 what you're trying to drive through the bone. If you're 1:16:50.439 --> 1:16:54.080 trying to drive um, you know, aluminum ferrel, chisel point 1:16:54.840 --> 1:16:59.559 head and very thin blades, it could be that it's 1:16:59.560 --> 1:17:02.160 gonna use that force, you know, that force to crush 1:17:02.240 --> 1:17:04.400 that is less than the force to pop that bone. 1:17:04.439 --> 1:17:08.240 And that's what happens a lot there. Um. So that 1:17:08.479 --> 1:17:11.360 what you mean the force that before it pops the bone, 1:17:11.360 --> 1:17:14.200 it will break the blades. Yes, yeah, it'll break the 1:17:14.240 --> 1:17:16.880 blade or bend over the ferrel or things like that. 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:20.519 So you know, dr Ashby, I think his number one 1:17:20.600 --> 1:17:25.200 thing was structural integrity of the broadhead and the components. 1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:29.200 So yes, so I think that, I mean we agree there. 1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:33.640 And and that's a lot of what was wrong with 1:17:33.760 --> 1:17:36.160 the products I had been using is there was no 1:17:36.200 --> 1:17:37.720 way they're going to make it through bone. You know, 1:17:37.800 --> 1:17:40.160 they crushed when they go through bone. And and that's 1:17:40.160 --> 1:17:41.720 a lot of the initial work I did. As I 1:17:41.760 --> 1:17:46.240 spent about five years going through different steels, different heat 1:17:46.280 --> 1:17:50.000 treat processes, ended up settling on a two tool steel, 1:17:50.000 --> 1:17:52.679 which is used to cut metal and metal stamping dies 1:17:52.720 --> 1:17:55.479 because it can be very hard, sharp, and it has 1:17:55.560 --> 1:17:58.080 the toughness, you know, to cut metals or to cut 1:17:58.120 --> 1:18:02.400 through bone and and and not get crushed because if 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:04.759 things get crushed or bend or break, it just sucks 1:18:04.840 --> 1:18:07.880 up all the energy. Um, So we don't totally agree there. 1:18:07.920 --> 1:18:10.160 You need something durable enough to get through the bone. 1:18:11.000 --> 1:18:15.519 But then I don't think grain is is a great number. 1:18:15.560 --> 1:18:17.519 It didn't work for me being an out west bow hunter. 1:18:17.600 --> 1:18:19.320 It was too heavy. I was getting a big nose 1:18:19.400 --> 1:18:23.200 dive to my arrows when that arrow dives off. You uh, 1:18:26.040 --> 1:18:27.680 like if you're shooting a real heavy arrow and it 1:18:27.760 --> 1:18:30.000 dies off and you're talking about the nose dive right 1:18:30.800 --> 1:18:34.960 as it drops some velocity. Um, obviously it going slower 1:18:35.040 --> 1:18:41.080 isn't good. But does that does that changed angle matter? Yeah, 1:18:41.120 --> 1:18:46.360 there is a change of angle, and you know, so 1:18:46.479 --> 1:18:49.680 it doesn't stay necessarily like it starts to lose it's horizontal, 1:18:50.600 --> 1:18:53.680 right yeah? Or does it? Am I wrong? No, you're right. 1:18:53.720 --> 1:18:56.360 I've shot animals a long distance and the entrance to 1:18:56.360 --> 1:18:57.800 the next of holes looked like I shot it out 1:18:57.800 --> 1:18:59.800 of a tree stand. So there's a lot of drop. 1:19:00.000 --> 1:19:02.280 And you also need to know your yardage very accurately 1:19:02.320 --> 1:19:06.120 then too, because that's going to ask when when you 1:19:06.240 --> 1:19:09.360 see or at what distance you see the nose dives starting. 1:19:09.640 --> 1:19:11.879 I mean, I know that that's dependent on many factors, 1:19:12.000 --> 1:19:14.400 but yeah, you know, at that time with the bow 1:19:14.520 --> 1:19:16.240 I was using, and it both have become a lot 1:19:16.280 --> 1:19:18.400 more efficient, but at that time, trying to shoot a 1:19:18.439 --> 1:19:20.920 six de green arrow out of my seventy pombo and 1:19:21.080 --> 1:19:23.800 energy it had, I was really seeing a dive off 1:19:23.840 --> 1:19:27.800 a lot at fifty yards, okay, and that's that's going 1:19:27.840 --> 1:19:30.360 to vary by bo And well that's like one of 1:19:30.400 --> 1:19:33.400 the things that like I shoot a shoot a rover 1:19:33.600 --> 1:19:36.040 site and I got one pin like set at forty 1:19:36.120 --> 1:19:38.760 that's like adjustable one pin set at six it's adjustable's 1:19:39.439 --> 1:19:42.320 two pin system. And the reason I got that was 1:19:42.400 --> 1:19:46.479 specifically because like I felt comfortable pin gapping out to 1:19:46.640 --> 1:19:50.120 about you know, forty yards, you know, so anything between 1:19:50.200 --> 1:19:53.400 thirty and like forty, but past that I noticed there 1:19:53.479 --> 1:19:56.880 was such a significant drop that even and I'm not 1:19:56.920 --> 1:19:58.800 shooting a particularly heavy air. I mean I'm shooting like 1:19:58.920 --> 1:20:00.880 on like the heavier spec from my setups like five 1:20:01.280 --> 1:20:05.519 and fifteen grains, but even that past forty yards, I mean, 1:20:05.560 --> 1:20:08.519 like the differential is huge. If you think something that 1:20:09.080 --> 1:20:12.280 forty four and you think it's walking broadside, but it's 1:20:12.320 --> 1:20:14.960 actually kind of like walking away from you at a 1:20:15.160 --> 1:20:17.920 very slight angle. And it's at forty seven, You're like, 1:20:18.000 --> 1:20:20.960 point impact is going to be like four inches different 1:20:21.040 --> 1:20:24.320 sometimes right, and and like you, I like to if 1:20:24.360 --> 1:20:27.280 I see it, say an elk under fifty yards, I 1:20:27.400 --> 1:20:29.080 just want to draw and shoot it. I've had too 1:20:29.120 --> 1:20:31.600 many times when I decided to go and range and 1:20:31.680 --> 1:20:34.120 it was some other animals saw me and they took 1:20:34.160 --> 1:20:36.880 off running, and I kicked myself, like why didn't I 1:20:36.920 --> 1:20:38.800 just draw and shoot. I knew it was forty or 1:20:38.880 --> 1:20:41.800 forty four, And so yeah, if it's under fifty, I 1:20:41.920 --> 1:20:44.920 like the eyeball range it take the shot because you 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:47.240 don't know what's going to happen if you wait longer. Um. 1:20:47.680 --> 1:20:48.880 So that's part of the reason I wanted to have 1:20:48.960 --> 1:20:52.480 a flatter trajectory. Yeah. Well, and then also it like eliminates, 1:20:53.120 --> 1:20:55.960 Like when I think about like an accurate arrow or 1:20:56.040 --> 1:20:58.680 like an arrow that will kill something in particular, I 1:20:58.800 --> 1:21:03.040 think about that shot is like a percentage. Um. If 1:21:05.960 --> 1:21:08.679 it's like I would rather know that I can put 1:21:08.760 --> 1:21:11.880 the arrow when I where I mean to inside a 1:21:11.920 --> 1:21:16.200 fifty yards then have the insurance that comes from being like, well, 1:21:16.720 --> 1:21:19.360 I can blow through that things scalpular scapula if I 1:21:19.479 --> 1:21:22.439 like make a bad shot. And so it's like, what's 1:21:22.479 --> 1:21:24.640 the trade off there. It's like, I get the insurance 1:21:24.760 --> 1:21:28.640 if it's like right or left, I guess, but I 1:21:29.479 --> 1:21:32.640 I put myself into disadvantage because if my range is 1:21:32.680 --> 1:21:34.280 even a little bit off, like it's going to be. 1:21:35.000 --> 1:21:37.280 You know, what I'm saying does makes sense. That's totally 1:21:37.360 --> 1:21:39.880 the tradeoff. And that's what I tell people that ask for, 1:21:40.479 --> 1:21:43.960 you know, how do I increase my penetration? And I 1:21:44.000 --> 1:21:46.760 tell them they'll shoot. Shoot the heaviest mass you can 1:21:47.320 --> 1:21:49.920 for the trajectory that you want, or within the trajectory 1:21:49.960 --> 1:21:53.599 that you want, because increasing mass will give you those 1:21:53.720 --> 1:21:57.519 increases in penetration. They're not they're not huge, but you know, 1:21:57.600 --> 1:22:01.400 like I said, it's maybe hundred grain roughly or give 1:22:01.439 --> 1:22:03.759 you a ten percent better chance of breaking that bone. 1:22:04.160 --> 1:22:07.160 Say so, so there is an improvement to mass, but 1:22:07.240 --> 1:22:10.920 it's dropping off your trajectory. So that's the tradeoff. Really, 1:22:11.240 --> 1:22:13.560 and I think, really, I mean I think Ashby, like 1:22:13.960 --> 1:22:15.680 he kind of was saying the same thing, was like 1:22:15.920 --> 1:22:19.200 six fifty was the best that worked for him. But 1:22:19.280 --> 1:22:21.959 I think he says that you should shoot the heaviest 1:22:22.080 --> 1:22:26.320 era you can within the accept the trajectory that's acceptable 1:22:26.439 --> 1:22:30.320 to you personally. Right. Yeah, he's been he's been saying that. 1:22:30.560 --> 1:22:33.720 I've seen that more lately and I've changes tune a 1:22:33.760 --> 1:22:36.400 little bit. I think maybe, I mean, I've been saying 1:22:36.439 --> 1:22:38.400 that to him for a couple of years, but I don't. 1:22:38.479 --> 1:22:40.040 I don't. I don't want to say influence to that. 1:22:40.160 --> 1:22:42.600 I want to bring up to your point, this is 1:22:42.680 --> 1:22:44.360 what Mark. I would like to take credit for this. 1:22:44.479 --> 1:22:46.320 But Mark Boordman brought up this because we were having 1:22:46.360 --> 1:22:51.320 this conversation Mark Warman from Vortex everybody over there. He's saying, 1:22:51.320 --> 1:22:53.160 you know, I'd like a flat shoot arrow because like 1:22:53.240 --> 1:22:55.599 the last two or three white tail box that he shy, 1:22:55.600 --> 1:22:57.559 I've been like plus forty and maybe even right at 1:22:57.600 --> 1:23:00.719 fifty yards, you know, which is pretty far shot, small target, 1:23:00.800 --> 1:23:03.680 you know, on a on a white tail and uh, 1:23:03.920 --> 1:23:05.840 but we were kind of talking about what a heavier 1:23:06.080 --> 1:23:09.280 arrow can do, like if you happen to miss, and 1:23:09.439 --> 1:23:11.639 he says to me, is you know, but I didn't 1:23:11.680 --> 1:23:15.400 think about all the shots that I've passed up that 1:23:15.520 --> 1:23:19.280 were close because I didn't have the proper orientation to 1:23:19.400 --> 1:23:22.840 the animal, you know, whether he was quartering too like 1:23:22.960 --> 1:23:24.400 he could have just been bone he could have just 1:23:24.479 --> 1:23:27.880 been bone busting the whole time. And exactly that's one 1:23:27.880 --> 1:23:30.080 of the biggest factors I think for you know, shooting 1:23:30.600 --> 1:23:33.880 ironwell broadhead and shooting a little heavier arrow is on 1:23:33.920 --> 1:23:36.479 a deer sized animal, it just opens up all these 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:39.519 other shot angles. You know, the last last couple of 1:23:39.560 --> 1:23:42.400 meal deer I've shot, we're actually quartering on coming into 1:23:42.439 --> 1:23:45.280 decoys and a little bit of a downward shot. I 1:23:45.360 --> 1:23:47.400 knew what the I know the bone structure, well, I 1:23:47.479 --> 1:23:49.920 knew it was going to be thin scapula and put 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:52.160 it right through there and um got a complete pass 1:23:52.200 --> 1:23:54.519 through into the ground. But I was just totally confident 1:23:54.600 --> 1:23:57.680 that I can make that shot with this broadhead, this arrow. Um, 1:23:57.760 --> 1:24:00.000 so I did think it does opens up shot opportunit 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:03.840 introduce you know, I started shooting your broadheads because Phelps does, 1:24:04.600 --> 1:24:06.920 and Phelps has real strong opinions about it, and he 1:24:06.960 --> 1:24:10.519 taught me into shooting them, and then uh, it's you know, 1:24:10.560 --> 1:24:13.120 it's a little bit tricky, but he talked me into 1:24:13.280 --> 1:24:15.000 him and Yanni. He kind of taught me into like 1:24:15.040 --> 1:24:18.160 a shot that I would have never taken in the 1:24:18.200 --> 1:24:21.000 old days, the front shot full yeah, the frontal shot 1:24:21.560 --> 1:24:25.560 like low Brisket and um Menfel's bullshot bulls together like 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:28.439 that last year with your broadheads, and that neither of 1:24:28.479 --> 1:24:31.960 them went anywhere, And that was kind of like I'm 1:24:32.000 --> 1:24:34.280 not saying I don't you know, it worked good, but 1:24:34.400 --> 1:24:37.840 it was kind of like that doing a thing that 1:24:37.960 --> 1:24:40.800 you thought you weren't supposed to do, but someone convincing 1:24:40.880 --> 1:24:44.840 you that you had the right, necessary thing to do it. 1:24:45.760 --> 1:24:49.080 But it still feels funny, like to get you a 1:24:49.120 --> 1:24:51.200 point where you're like to get to a point where 1:24:51.479 --> 1:24:56.000 you had deer that are quartering to you and you're 1:24:56.160 --> 1:24:59.519 so confident about what's gonna happen, You're just gonna like 1:24:59.640 --> 1:25:02.360 punch in there, no one. You're gonna bust through all 1:25:02.400 --> 1:25:04.880 those bones, you know, Yeah, for years I didn't. For years, 1:25:04.920 --> 1:25:08.200 I passed up frontal shots or slight quartering two and 1:25:09.160 --> 1:25:11.840 it was through. And at the same time, I've shot 1:25:12.479 --> 1:25:15.160 through hundreds of leg bones with our broad heads and 1:25:15.240 --> 1:25:18.439 completely passed through even like a moose femur, completely passed 1:25:18.479 --> 1:25:21.240 through and the broadhead looks good, so I knew that 1:25:21.320 --> 1:25:23.880 it could get through the bones. But yeah, I had that, 1:25:23.960 --> 1:25:26.280 still had that in my head that according to is 1:25:26.360 --> 1:25:28.519 a is a no go shot or frontals and no 1:25:28.680 --> 1:25:33.080 go But um yeah, and you know people are going 1:25:33.120 --> 1:25:35.200 to argue whether or not it's ethical, But I think 1:25:35.720 --> 1:25:37.200 I've got the knowledge at this point that I know 1:25:37.400 --> 1:25:40.360 it's going through a hundred percent confident it's going through 1:25:40.400 --> 1:25:42.519 that bone and it's gonna stick into the ground on 1:25:42.600 --> 1:25:44.680 the other side of them. You know. The thing that 1:25:45.000 --> 1:25:48.760 comes out of this is I remember and talking to Ask, 1:25:48.840 --> 1:25:53.880 we talked about this where if you hit it, like 1:25:54.280 --> 1:25:56.240 if you hit a deer, elk, whatever, and you come 1:25:56.240 --> 1:25:58.320 in behind the shoulder blade and you angle in and 1:25:58.400 --> 1:26:01.519 punch a hole in its heart, it's dead. It's like 1:26:02.200 --> 1:26:03.880 He's like, it was kind of like, we're not talking 1:26:03.920 --> 1:26:07.160 about that, like all the setups out there everybody has. 1:26:07.360 --> 1:26:09.559 If you don't if you go pass between two ribs 1:26:09.600 --> 1:26:12.080 and punch a hole in it's heart, sure, right. The 1:26:12.160 --> 1:26:15.519 conversation is what happens when it doesn't do that? Right? 1:26:15.600 --> 1:26:17.880 Any broadhead you shoot behind the shoulder, all you have 1:26:18.000 --> 1:26:20.160 is maybe a rib and the hearts there. You know, 1:26:20.240 --> 1:26:23.800 any broadhead is gonna gonna kill it. It's what are 1:26:23.840 --> 1:26:25.920 the other trade offs. Let's say it ducked and turned 1:26:25.920 --> 1:26:28.000 into it and you hit the shoulder and let me 1:26:28.040 --> 1:26:30.479 add before I forget, I don't want to advocate that, 1:26:31.120 --> 1:26:33.960 you know, kids out there should be shooting deer in 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:36.320 the shoulder blade right now either because it's it's going 1:26:36.360 --> 1:26:38.720 to depend on your set up, your broad head. You know, 1:26:38.920 --> 1:26:41.040 you have to know what you're capable of, and I 1:26:41.080 --> 1:26:43.880 don't want to. I don't want to encourage, you know, 1:26:44.160 --> 1:26:46.080 shots that would be unethical if you don't have the 1:26:46.160 --> 1:26:48.880 right set up for it. Mechanicals. You know, you're not 1:26:48.920 --> 1:26:51.240 going through the shoulder blade probably. But it's a funny 1:26:51.280 --> 1:26:53.880 conversation though, to say ethical, because you'd be like, that's 1:26:53.920 --> 1:26:57.040 not ethical, and you'd say, well, why is that not ethical? 1:26:58.520 --> 1:27:04.120 Is it measured by it's measured by an obsolete It's like, 1:27:04.240 --> 1:27:09.800 not ethical as measured by obsolete technology, right, I believe it. 1:27:09.880 --> 1:27:11.519 That's where it came from. It's not ethical because it 1:27:11.560 --> 1:27:13.160 doesn't work, and you'd be like, well, it does work. 1:27:14.400 --> 1:27:17.880 I believe, Yeah, I believe it's ethical if there's a 1:27:17.960 --> 1:27:20.160 high percentage chance it's going to be a very quick, 1:27:20.760 --> 1:27:24.559 quick kill. Um, And I believe it is. And if 1:27:25.200 --> 1:27:27.280 with a mechanical I don't think it is. Togotiot it 1:27:27.320 --> 1:27:28.800 to the shoulder blade. There's a I mean, they might 1:27:28.840 --> 1:27:31.160 get through, but a good chance they wouldn't. So you know, 1:27:31.240 --> 1:27:34.080 you might argue that's not an ethical shot, but it's 1:27:35.200 --> 1:27:37.000 I guess that's why I use the word ethicals. I 1:27:37.080 --> 1:27:39.120 feel like as a hypercentage of a very quick kill, 1:27:39.360 --> 1:27:42.640 very quick death of taking the animal. But it's interesting 1:27:42.760 --> 1:27:46.320 to I guess, like at risk of overstaying. The point 1:27:46.439 --> 1:27:50.240 would be when you say whether or not a certain 1:27:50.320 --> 1:27:52.400 shot with the bow was ethical. It's sort of like, 1:27:53.800 --> 1:27:58.920 is it ethical with what I'm shooting right? Not? Is 1:27:59.000 --> 1:28:03.680 it ethical right with what I'm shooting? My personal capabilities, 1:28:03.840 --> 1:28:07.080 my effective range, all those things come into it. I think, 1:28:07.240 --> 1:28:10.320 is it you know, what are the odds of that animal? 1:28:10.640 --> 1:28:15.519 You're gonna take that animal quickly? U versus maybe wound 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:18.800 the animal? You know, that would be the the decision there. 1:28:20.960 --> 1:28:22.680 One of the things that asked you said, and I 1:28:22.800 --> 1:28:26.960 noticed that because I had had your broadheads is um. 1:28:29.360 --> 1:28:32.559 He said that the shape of the point on your 1:28:32.600 --> 1:28:36.479 broadheads is like the big no, no, really, you didn't 1:28:36.479 --> 1:28:39.120 know this. No, No, I think he said he likes it. 1:28:39.240 --> 1:28:41.080 I think I thought he said that anything with the 1:28:41.240 --> 1:28:45.439 shoulder Tonto tip. It's the same thing that he uses 1:28:45.560 --> 1:28:47.760 that they like to know he likes the Tonto tip, 1:28:47.880 --> 1:28:51.640 for sure. I thought he only liked the long gradual point. Well, 1:28:51.720 --> 1:28:55.800 he likes the three to one, and that's the She 1:28:55.840 --> 1:28:58.960 didn't say that it's naughty to have a step or 1:28:59.000 --> 1:29:05.280 a shoulder per cent. You're positive. That's pretty positive. Are 1:29:05.280 --> 1:29:07.880 you talking about the shoulder on the on the blade. 1:29:08.479 --> 1:29:11.200 I thought that's a no, that's not no. He likes that. 1:29:11.320 --> 1:29:14.920 That's the Tonto tip. That's it. That adds a lot 1:29:14.960 --> 1:29:18.920 of strength. Messing up, you're messing it up. But he doesn't. 1:29:19.200 --> 1:29:21.639 He does push the three to one, which is the biggest, 1:29:21.760 --> 1:29:23.800 one of the biggest points of contention I really have 1:29:23.920 --> 1:29:26.960 with them. Okay, explain three to one, all right, So 1:29:27.160 --> 1:29:31.160 it's being applied wrong. It's the mechanism is wrong there. 1:29:31.560 --> 1:29:34.600 It's he's saying a three. He's saying a broadhead that 1:29:34.720 --> 1:29:37.120 has say three to one aspect ratio, like three inches 1:29:37.200 --> 1:29:40.679 long one inch wide. Okay, draw that for me. You're 1:29:40.720 --> 1:29:45.960 talking about you're talking about the shape of the broadhead. Yeah, okay, 1:29:46.040 --> 1:29:49.040 so he just drew a little broadhead, very classic little broadhead. Yeah. 1:29:49.080 --> 1:29:51.400 So the length is three inches and the width is 1:29:51.479 --> 1:29:56.519 one inch okay at its base. Yeah. Yeah, the width, 1:29:56.640 --> 1:29:58.679 like the cutting width you'd have would be one inch, 1:29:59.280 --> 1:30:01.519 but the length out sticking out the front of the 1:30:01.640 --> 1:30:03.559 arrow is three inches. So that makes three to one. 1:30:03.720 --> 1:30:08.080 That's three to one. It takes three inches. It takes 1:30:08.200 --> 1:30:13.519 three inches to express it's full one inch of width. Yes, Like, 1:30:13.600 --> 1:30:15.519 if I want to make a one inch cut in 1:30:15.640 --> 1:30:18.839 your abdomen, a one inch wide cut in your abdomen, 1:30:18.880 --> 1:30:22.360 I would need to insert this blade three inches into you. Right, 1:30:22.400 --> 1:30:24.920 it's got a it's making a wedge. It's like you 1:30:25.160 --> 1:30:27.760 the wedge and inches gotta pushed forward three inches And 1:30:27.920 --> 1:30:30.960 he likes three to one. Yeah, and which I would 1:30:30.960 --> 1:30:34.040 say is a shallow ass angle. It is. It's it's 1:30:34.400 --> 1:30:38.320 nine degrees. And I would say I could imagine, taken 1:30:38.400 --> 1:30:41.840 to an extreme, you might wind up with something pretty 1:30:41.880 --> 1:30:44.960 flimsy up towards the tip exactly. So there's there's two 1:30:45.040 --> 1:30:49.400 negatives to it. One is like an engineer, bro you are, 1:30:50.720 --> 1:30:53.599 So there's two. You know that I understand that problem. 1:30:55.280 --> 1:30:57.759 There's two disadvantages. One is it's got a weak point 1:30:58.160 --> 1:31:02.160 um because the stress is proportional to length cube. So 1:31:02.479 --> 1:31:03.880 a three to one is going to have a lot 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:07.599 higher stress and be more likely to break the tip off. Okay. 1:31:08.479 --> 1:31:10.479 The other issues is not going to fly very well 1:31:10.800 --> 1:31:13.680 because you got a lot more surface area. Well, it's 1:31:13.680 --> 1:31:18.599 gonna be less stable, less forgiving in flight m okay. 1:31:19.439 --> 1:31:22.519 And what he says is that this has a three 1:31:22.560 --> 1:31:25.920 to one mechanical advantage, and that's that's where the problem is. 1:31:26.200 --> 1:31:30.360 Mechanical advantage is it's a term used on a simple 1:31:30.439 --> 1:31:33.920 machine to give the ratio of force import the force 1:31:34.000 --> 1:31:36.880 house output. So like on a lever, you might have 1:31:37.080 --> 1:31:40.360 like you input a force, you get three three and 1:31:40.439 --> 1:31:42.560 put one pound, you get three pounds out. You know 1:31:42.840 --> 1:31:45.640 the shape of the lever. So he's applying that to 1:31:45.800 --> 1:31:49.200 a broadhead like it's a wedge, Like it's wedging something 1:31:49.360 --> 1:31:53.000 up an inch okay, like like a box that would 1:31:53.040 --> 1:31:55.880 slide on a wedge. Yeah, if you pushed in a 1:31:55.960 --> 1:31:58.920 pound of force, you get about a three pound pushed 1:31:58.920 --> 1:32:01.320 it with one pound you get about three pounds force 1:32:01.400 --> 1:32:04.880 pushing that up. Well, a broadhead doesn't wedge an animal apart. 1:32:06.080 --> 1:32:09.000 It's just a big it's a big myth here that 1:32:10.040 --> 1:32:12.679 it's really cutting it, it's slicing it. You're only wedging 1:32:12.720 --> 1:32:16.600 it apart the thickness of the blades, yeah, or the 1:32:16.720 --> 1:32:19.720 ferreal yeah, or then the ferrel and then and then 1:32:19.760 --> 1:32:23.360 the and then the arrow. But it's totally been applied wrong. 1:32:24.120 --> 1:32:27.800 Three to one mechanical advantage should not be applied to 1:32:27.880 --> 1:32:29.800 a broadhead. You call the three to one aspect ratio. 1:32:30.640 --> 1:32:35.600 But it's dominated by the force to cut. Okay, it's not. 1:32:35.760 --> 1:32:38.720 It's not wedging the whole animal apart. So is there 1:32:38.840 --> 1:32:43.320 some other scientific term or or mechanism that what he 1:32:43.400 --> 1:32:45.559 because what are he is saying is correct? Right? If 1:32:45.960 --> 1:32:50.400 if your blade is steeper, it should take less force 1:32:50.520 --> 1:32:55.000 to push through the medium than if it was wider. Yes, 1:32:55.200 --> 1:32:58.240 And what I've found myself is that it's good point. 1:32:58.760 --> 1:33:01.759 So a three to one, three to one has about 1:33:01.800 --> 1:33:04.960 it because eight degrees per side. You know, if you're 1:33:04.960 --> 1:33:06.640 looking at the access of the arrow, three one is 1:33:06.640 --> 1:33:09.200 about eight degree a one and a half to one 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:12.719 is about sixteen degrees. Those are both very shallow angles 1:33:12.760 --> 1:33:15.519 when you talk about cutting something, and what I found 1:33:15.600 --> 1:33:18.960 is there very little difference in force to penetrate if 1:33:19.000 --> 1:33:22.920 you have a very sharp edge. So if you think 1:33:22.920 --> 1:33:24.720 about taking a knife and you're gonna cut a roast, 1:33:24.800 --> 1:33:27.960 and you're gonna just cut it at an eight degree angle, 1:33:28.200 --> 1:33:30.719 and what force would that take versus a sixteen degree angle? 1:33:30.800 --> 1:33:32.719 What force would that take with a really sharp knife. 1:33:33.040 --> 1:33:36.120 They're both pretty shallow cuts, right, they're both just slicing. 1:33:36.760 --> 1:33:38.400 Now if you get up to like forty five degrees 1:33:38.439 --> 1:33:41.080 are more where it's more of a chop, then I 1:33:41.200 --> 1:33:44.080 think that's where. So if you tested it all the 1:33:44.120 --> 1:33:48.680 way out to degrees or seeing like when does it 1:33:48.760 --> 1:33:50.360 make a difference When all of a sudden you're like, 1:33:50.360 --> 1:33:52.600 all right, yeah, this thing is not penetrating. Yeah, I 1:33:52.600 --> 1:33:55.439 think up over up over forty maybe it does. But 1:33:55.520 --> 1:33:57.680 what I've seen in the in the range and even 1:33:57.720 --> 1:33:59.920 at a one to one that's a twenty six degree angle, 1:34:00.000 --> 1:34:04.240 it's pretty shallow. Um I have found, and I've I've 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:06.400 measured the force to penetrate, you know with the instro 1:34:06.560 --> 1:34:09.679 machine going not through hide and muscle, and I don't 1:34:09.680 --> 1:34:13.599 get any difference in force with with that. Um those 1:34:13.680 --> 1:34:16.960 changes in angle of about one to one one point 1:34:17.000 --> 1:34:19.240 five to one. And I've talked to dr Ashby about this, 1:34:19.880 --> 1:34:22.800 and the last time I talked to him he actually said, yeah, 1:34:22.840 --> 1:34:26.360 my data doesn't really um doesn't really show the three 1:34:26.439 --> 1:34:28.760 to one. He's tested two point six to one and 1:34:28.840 --> 1:34:31.040 had the same results as three to one. He said 1:34:31.080 --> 1:34:32.760 that was more of a Howard Hill thing that was 1:34:32.840 --> 1:34:35.720 carried forward. So it's more like folklore that you need 1:34:35.760 --> 1:34:40.240 a three to one for um for a broadhead shape. 1:34:40.360 --> 1:34:43.599 So that's a myth. Let's everybody out there but saying 1:34:43.640 --> 1:34:47.439 it saying it. It's not true. Do you know what's 1:34:47.479 --> 1:34:49.920 driving me crazy? More crazy than when I couldn't understand 1:34:50.000 --> 1:34:54.519 about the bow and the length of the amount of 1:34:54.600 --> 1:34:59.519 time your string applies pressure under your air, that constant acceleration. Dude, 1:34:59.600 --> 1:35:02.400 I where there was something about that. He didn't like 1:35:02.520 --> 1:35:06.640 a shoulder, he didn't like. Chisel tips he liked he 1:35:06.760 --> 1:35:09.000 wanted to cut on contact, which is what that is. 1:35:09.320 --> 1:35:12.240 So what he liked is the tonto tips, so that 1:35:12.360 --> 1:35:14.479 straight three to one where it's got the same angle 1:35:14.600 --> 1:35:18.640 going all the way out. He likes truncating that with 1:35:18.800 --> 1:35:21.680 a little bit. So tonto tip just means instead of 1:35:21.760 --> 1:35:24.040 having that say eight degree per side all the way out, 1:35:24.560 --> 1:35:26.880 you go to maybe a twenty degree per side right 1:35:27.240 --> 1:35:30.840 right at the end, and if you don't, you break 1:35:30.880 --> 1:35:35.120 that tip really easily. Structural integrity. Right, Yeah, So that's 1:35:35.240 --> 1:35:37.320 basically the reason for it. I found that too. I 1:35:37.439 --> 1:35:40.719 was testing a lot of three to one broadheads initially 1:35:40.840 --> 1:35:43.160 through bone. I was breaking the points off all the time, 1:35:43.800 --> 1:35:45.840 and they weren't flying well, and so I started in 1:35:45.880 --> 1:35:49.000 my own design getting getting shorter and shorter over time, 1:35:49.080 --> 1:35:52.040 and then adding that tonto tip to increase that strength 1:35:52.320 --> 1:35:54.400 when he hit heavy bones. So that's what you're after 1:35:54.520 --> 1:35:57.040 when you do that tonto tip blade is you're after 1:35:57.120 --> 1:36:02.320 getting rid of that somewhat flimsy narrow point. Right on 1:36:02.520 --> 1:36:06.240 one of Dr at Ashby's broadheads, he does have a 1:36:06.439 --> 1:36:12.720 slight tonto tip on it. It's like he does very slight. 1:36:12.920 --> 1:36:19.439 That's wrong, Okay, yeah, that's that's one of those Remember 1:36:19.439 --> 1:36:21.920 remember happy days when he'd be like, I was rude, 1:36:27.920 --> 1:36:31.720 So what uh, how do how do you like what 1:36:31.840 --> 1:36:35.360 have you done to actually test it on bone? Right? 1:36:35.360 --> 1:36:37.320 Because I think that there's a thing like a guy 1:36:37.520 --> 1:36:43.160 like take something in my mind would be you can 1:36:43.240 --> 1:36:45.920 look and be uh, all right, I accept all the 1:36:46.240 --> 1:36:49.519 laws of physics, okay, but in your head, like, but 1:36:49.640 --> 1:36:51.840 what if you like, what if you're like missing something, 1:36:52.120 --> 1:36:54.880 like you're not thinking of something? Right? So I just 1:36:54.920 --> 1:36:59.840 would want to see, um shoot it into a bunch 1:36:59.880 --> 1:37:03.320 of owns and see what happens. Can you do you 1:37:03.439 --> 1:37:05.400 feel that you can get to a thing where you 1:37:05.560 --> 1:37:08.560 know you've accounted for everything and not need to go 1:37:08.760 --> 1:37:10.200 do that? Because I was thinking that's kind of the 1:37:10.280 --> 1:37:13.519 main thing he brings to it is he shot umpteen 1:37:14.680 --> 1:37:21.760 thousand arrows into all kinds of dead ship, right, do 1:37:21.800 --> 1:37:25.240 you know what I'm saying? Like how you know if 1:37:25.320 --> 1:37:27.000 you went to a lot of you know, the bulk 1:37:27.040 --> 1:37:29.680 of Americans, I think they'd go like, Okay, I get 1:37:29.720 --> 1:37:33.680 all the you know, all the thinking and calculating and figuring, right, 1:37:34.080 --> 1:37:36.280 but how can you argue with just shooting arrows into 1:37:36.320 --> 1:37:39.280 dead stuff and seeing what it does? Because what if 1:37:39.400 --> 1:37:43.160 the tinker the figuring and thinking didn't account for some 1:37:43.360 --> 1:37:47.760 like unknown weirdness like what hair? You know, what is 1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:50.360 what is the role of hair? What is the role 1:37:50.479 --> 1:37:56.080 of it of hide? What is the role of hitting hide? 1:37:56.160 --> 1:37:58.400 And then the bone? Yeah, good point. You can have 1:37:58.600 --> 1:38:00.920 we can have the mechanisms wrong, right, I gonna try 1:38:00.920 --> 1:38:03.200 and apply science, but I could up being applying it 1:38:03.320 --> 1:38:06.840 wrong if I if the mechanisms a little bit different 1:38:06.920 --> 1:38:09.280 than I think this. Um, kind of that wedge versus 1:38:09.320 --> 1:38:14.759 cutting thing going on. Um. And and you're right in theory, 1:38:14.800 --> 1:38:17.360 and I've done this in theory. I can calculate it 1:38:17.439 --> 1:38:19.960 with my bow, my arrow, set up my broad head. 1:38:20.320 --> 1:38:24.640 You know I've measured the force to penetrate hide muscle scapula. 1:38:25.360 --> 1:38:29.120 I can you know theoretically, I calculated that I can 1:38:29.160 --> 1:38:31.080 get a double shoulder blade passed through on an elk 1:38:32.400 --> 1:38:35.960 on paper. Um, But you cant be some part of 1:38:36.040 --> 1:38:39.120 your brain. It's like, now, I'll try it out right, 1:38:39.760 --> 1:38:41.840 and I and I have. I've gotten single shoulder blade 1:38:41.840 --> 1:38:44.400 pastors on on elk. I haven't shopland through both. But 1:38:44.800 --> 1:38:47.640 I've shot a big boar through both shoulder blades and 1:38:47.880 --> 1:38:51.320 spine and got passed through both shoulder blades and the spine. 1:38:51.560 --> 1:38:55.559 So you know, I hunt a lot. I get, um average, 1:38:55.600 --> 1:38:57.680 maybe fifteen animals a year. I hunt had a lot 1:38:57.760 --> 1:39:01.479 of elk u, elk, deer, herbo pigs, other things. So 1:39:02.439 --> 1:39:03.960 I mean I love bone hunting. And that's really why 1:39:04.000 --> 1:39:06.320 I'm doing this is I want to be a more 1:39:06.360 --> 1:39:09.760 effective bone hunter. Um. But I also shot a lot 1:39:09.800 --> 1:39:12.759 of bones, so I was getting you know, cattle bones 1:39:12.800 --> 1:39:18.280 from the butcher, saving elk bones, and and that's really 1:39:18.360 --> 1:39:21.880 one of my early goals was just to penetrate through bone, 1:39:22.120 --> 1:39:24.400 make sure I got to the vitals and didn't have 1:39:24.479 --> 1:39:27.400 it stopped there. So you know, that made me iterate 1:39:27.439 --> 1:39:30.680 on which steel type um, which ferreal type going to 1:39:30.840 --> 1:39:34.360 like titanium hardened steel so the ferrels didn't bend um 1:39:34.439 --> 1:39:36.479 and then work on the arrow connection set up so 1:39:36.600 --> 1:39:38.559 that that you know, the arrow didn't break as well. 1:39:38.800 --> 1:39:42.000 So yeah, I've tested on by shooting a lot of bones, 1:39:42.200 --> 1:39:45.320 and really because that's a good durability test in that 1:39:46.600 --> 1:39:49.880 and that impact is hard to model. It's hard to 1:39:50.000 --> 1:39:55.000 just calculate. Um. It's very complex and if you think 1:39:55.040 --> 1:39:56.800 about it, and what I didn't really I really hadn't 1:39:56.800 --> 1:39:58.960 put a lot of thought into it prior to two 1:39:59.040 --> 1:40:02.040 thousand four is the it A broadhead blade has a 1:40:02.120 --> 1:40:04.800 really difficult job. I mean, where else out there do 1:40:04.840 --> 1:40:07.720 you have something that you want to be very very 1:40:07.760 --> 1:40:10.160 sharp to cut, but you're also gonna fling it at 1:40:10.160 --> 1:40:13.200 three inter feet per twod and not know what you hit. 1:40:13.320 --> 1:40:16.880 It might hit, it's gonna hit high, it might hit bone. Um, 1:40:17.120 --> 1:40:19.040 you don't know what angle is gonna hit at. So 1:40:19.240 --> 1:40:22.280 it's a pretty it's a pretty difficult job. You know. 1:40:22.439 --> 1:40:25.479 That broadhead has just to stay intact, stay sharp, cut, 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:30.040 and to have this tremendous impact. Um. Yeah, that's that's 1:40:30.080 --> 1:40:32.200 a You bring up an interesting point there because if 1:40:32.200 --> 1:40:34.679 you imagine, like taking your filet knife and cleaning a fish, 1:40:36.000 --> 1:40:40.559 you have this instrument designed for that might be great 1:40:41.200 --> 1:40:47.160 for cutting through right fish muscle, right right, But then 1:40:47.200 --> 1:40:48.479 all of a sudden you realize that you put a 1:40:48.560 --> 1:40:51.439 scale in front of it and it doesn't like that, 1:40:52.240 --> 1:40:54.760 and you go to remove the fish's collar and it 1:40:54.880 --> 1:40:57.920 definitely doesn't like that. And then you imagine, now I'm 1:40:57.920 --> 1:41:00.960 gonna stab it through the fish's skull. It really doesn't 1:41:01.040 --> 1:41:04.000 like that. But you wouldn't declare, you know what I mean. 1:41:04.120 --> 1:41:05.800 But you're sort of with your broadhead, your sort of 1:41:05.840 --> 1:41:08.840 saying no, no, no, you gotta I want you to 1:41:08.880 --> 1:41:11.200 do any and all of that right when I shoot 1:41:11.240 --> 1:41:14.280 it at this fish, when I take it to this fish, right, yeah, 1:41:14.320 --> 1:41:16.520 And that's why a lot of a lot of broadheads. 1:41:16.600 --> 1:41:21.120 That broadheads kind of evolved to be manufactured at low cost, 1:41:21.720 --> 1:41:25.879 so cheaper materials, thinner parts, um, a lot of luminum 1:41:25.960 --> 1:41:31.040 or softer steel, ferrells and four twenty blade steel. Um, 1:41:31.280 --> 1:41:32.880 it's kind of a low end steel, but it can 1:41:32.920 --> 1:41:35.760 be manufactured very low cost. And so a lot of 1:41:36.360 --> 1:41:38.560 a lot of the products drove more towards you know, 1:41:38.640 --> 1:41:41.960 lower cost to manufacture, and I think that's what consumers wanted. 1:41:42.040 --> 1:41:44.760 They wanted things that were lower cost. And they work 1:41:45.600 --> 1:41:48.040 if you hit him behind the shoulder, they work fine, Um, 1:41:48.600 --> 1:41:50.080 but they don't do very good on these on these 1:41:50.120 --> 1:42:02.720 bone impacts. What is some of the cost differentials out there? Um, 1:42:04.160 --> 1:42:06.200 you know, just in dollars, what's a cheap broadhead and 1:42:06.240 --> 1:42:10.080 what's an expensive broadhead? Yeah, three for thirty or forty 1:42:10.080 --> 1:42:13.840 dollars just kind of going right for most um, you know, 1:42:13.920 --> 1:42:17.320 big star broadheads, I would say, and and um so 1:42:17.520 --> 1:42:22.280 still ten bucks twelve bucks apiece. Yeah, that's that's probably 1:42:22.320 --> 1:42:25.120 most typical. I mean you'll find some that are six 1:42:25.880 --> 1:42:29.200 dollars really really low and stuff. Um, but I say 1:42:29.200 --> 1:42:31.719 it on three for forties pretty common, three forty five 1:42:32.040 --> 1:42:36.000 fifties some um, you know ironmal broadheads are we're at 1:42:36.040 --> 1:42:38.280 like one nineteen for a three pack, so it's about 1:42:38.720 --> 1:42:42.680 really yeah, like three times as much. So wow, I 1:42:42.760 --> 1:42:45.400 had no idea where like where's that you know, I've 1:42:45.439 --> 1:42:48.400 trusted it's going somewhere. Where is that money going? I 1:42:48.439 --> 1:42:49.640 don't mean, like what are you doing? Like what what 1:42:49.760 --> 1:42:52.840 are the materials differences? Do you know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah, 1:42:53.120 --> 1:42:56.280 So like what is expensive about? What is what makes 1:42:56.360 --> 1:43:01.480 them expensive material? It's some material als and manufacturing processes. 1:43:02.439 --> 1:43:05.640 So yeah, the steel, for instance, it's a it's a 1:43:05.720 --> 1:43:11.120 tool steel. It's thick, so you know, versus most blades 1:43:11.200 --> 1:43:13.280 they are thinner. They can you can run those on 1:43:13.320 --> 1:43:14.880 a reel to reel, you can have a coil of 1:43:14.960 --> 1:43:17.240 material on one side. It can go through a machine, 1:43:17.360 --> 1:43:21.800 get stamped um, ground everything right there, and come out 1:43:21.800 --> 1:43:23.640 on the other side as a complete blade. You know, 1:43:23.720 --> 1:43:26.880 that's a very low cost to make those versus this 1:43:27.000 --> 1:43:28.920 blade has made more like you would high end knife 1:43:29.160 --> 1:43:32.360 where you're you're taking you're blanking out the steel. When 1:43:32.360 --> 1:43:35.599 it softened, we do a heat treatment with a triple 1:43:35.680 --> 1:43:38.600 temper and a cry genic treatment to kind of maximize 1:43:38.640 --> 1:43:41.200 performance of the steel. And then it's a multi stage 1:43:41.280 --> 1:43:46.080 grinding and honing. UM. So it's extremely sharpen and holds 1:43:46.120 --> 1:43:48.600 the edge. You know, it's sixty rockwell see, which is 1:43:48.640 --> 1:43:50.400 what you'd have on a on a high end knife 1:43:50.479 --> 1:43:53.600 really but yet with a tool steel it it can 1:43:53.680 --> 1:43:56.880 take a high impact strength. Um. And as we're talking 1:43:56.880 --> 1:43:59.640 about the difficult job of a broadhead, that's why a 1:43:59.720 --> 1:44:02.240 lot of people will try to apply knife steels to it, 1:44:02.680 --> 1:44:05.719 which the steel might work great and a knife because 1:44:05.760 --> 1:44:08.840 it's not having a high speed impact, it doesn't have 1:44:09.000 --> 1:44:13.320 to have a lot of toughness. Um. But stainless steel 1:44:13.360 --> 1:44:15.640 is fairly brittle when it's that hard and it has 1:44:15.720 --> 1:44:18.439 some high high impact. Do you sell a lot of 1:44:18.439 --> 1:44:20.760 broadheads the white tail guys? Do you MUSTI sell broad 1:44:20.800 --> 1:44:22.840 has the guys that are hunting elk and moves and stuff. 1:44:23.200 --> 1:44:26.240 It's it's becoming more and more definitely. Initially we were 1:44:27.160 --> 1:44:31.080 selling to elk hunters. That was our major customer or 1:44:31.120 --> 1:44:33.519 guys coming from the east west to hunt elk, and 1:44:33.760 --> 1:44:35.800 we're it's kind of thought of as like an elk 1:44:35.840 --> 1:44:39.040 specialty broadhead. You know, this is made to penetrate through 1:44:39.080 --> 1:44:42.720 a bigger animal further um, But more and more white 1:44:42.760 --> 1:44:45.439 tail guys are using it too, And what I found 1:44:45.479 --> 1:44:49.000 personally is I needed a lot in white tails because 1:44:49.040 --> 1:44:51.720 there's so much more likely to move, you know, duck 1:44:51.800 --> 1:44:55.960 and turn um and and hit the shoulder. So I 1:44:56.040 --> 1:44:59.040 think it's um you know, it opens up shot opportunities 1:44:59.080 --> 1:45:01.000 straight down through the spa line. Or if you hit 1:45:01.040 --> 1:45:04.519 a shoulder and a white tail and it's it's it's 1:45:04.640 --> 1:45:06.400 maybe not the average white tail hunter, but it's the 1:45:06.439 --> 1:45:09.679 guy that's going after the you know, the bigger buck, 1:45:09.800 --> 1:45:12.360 or he's really passionate about about it and doesn't want 1:45:12.400 --> 1:45:14.840 doesn't want to have any failures. He wants to remove 1:45:14.880 --> 1:45:17.519 any failures you can from this gear and set up. Hey, 1:45:17.600 --> 1:45:20.000 and you just killed an antelope with one of with 1:45:20.080 --> 1:45:22.559 the iron wheel broadhead right here? Man, let me see 1:45:22.600 --> 1:45:26.000 it now, Yannie, what broadheads you shooting these days? It's 1:45:26.040 --> 1:45:30.479 called a tough head evolution. Now, uh, let's do those 1:45:30.479 --> 1:45:35.479 play this game. Let's say let's say Bill handed you 1:45:35.560 --> 1:45:38.160 a box of the broadheads. You'd say, well, no, I'm 1:45:38.160 --> 1:45:43.559 not gonna use those, because uh, now I wouldn't. I think, 1:45:43.640 --> 1:45:46.120 I mean for what I for what I know, they're 1:45:46.479 --> 1:45:48.960 very similar. I mean I think that some of the 1:45:49.160 --> 1:45:51.599 steel and some of the stuff that Bill can speak 1:45:51.640 --> 1:45:53.720 to that I can't. But I think as far as 1:45:53.840 --> 1:45:59.200 like shape and uh size and what they're supposed to do, 1:45:59.479 --> 1:46:02.479 it's they're pretty similar. Yeah, it's a high and broad 1:46:02.560 --> 1:46:05.200 head to it. It uses tool steel. Um, do you 1:46:05.240 --> 1:46:07.400 know what steel you're using and the ones you have? 1:46:08.560 --> 1:46:10.000 That's all right. I think there's a couple of use. 1:46:10.120 --> 1:46:13.120 But he's using tool steel. Um. One of the difference 1:46:13.160 --> 1:46:15.360 would be I've I've added bleeders. I really like that 1:46:15.479 --> 1:46:19.400 cross cut, and and that's kind of more game dependent. 1:46:19.479 --> 1:46:22.240 If I was just like dr Ashby going after Kate 1:46:22.320 --> 1:46:26.880 Buffalo or as no no bleeders, Yeah, he just likes 1:46:26.920 --> 1:46:31.200 a two blade. Yeah, and if if I was shooting 1:46:31.240 --> 1:46:33.400 and we make up what we call our buff series 1:46:33.439 --> 1:46:35.840 which has no bleeders really for somebody that wants to 1:46:35.840 --> 1:46:38.920 go after Kate Buffalo. But what I found from North 1:46:38.960 --> 1:46:42.400 American big game, having a cross cut of a bleeder 1:46:42.479 --> 1:46:46.280 set back has a minimal effect on penetration, and then 1:46:46.320 --> 1:46:48.320 it opens up this cross cut so you get a 1:46:48.400 --> 1:46:52.439 much better blood trail, you know, more total cut, more 1:46:52.520 --> 1:46:57.639 total inches sliced, so bleeds out faster, quicker kill, more 1:46:57.640 --> 1:46:59.640 blood on the ground. So I'm a big fan of 1:46:59.720 --> 1:47:01.920 bleed years. For the first two years I didn't have any, 1:47:02.360 --> 1:47:04.960 and occasionally we would just get a very poor blood trail, 1:47:05.439 --> 1:47:07.679 like that single slice just can close up too easily. 1:47:08.240 --> 1:47:10.600 So I like having that cross cut. It kind of 1:47:10.680 --> 1:47:12.840 forces there to be an open hole to some degree. 1:47:13.120 --> 1:47:15.960 I've told this before, I think on this podcast, but 1:47:16.040 --> 1:47:20.040 I shot a magnus stinger into a cow elk maybe 1:47:20.280 --> 1:47:23.920 fifteen years ago, and it did great what I thought 1:47:24.040 --> 1:47:27.840 at first, because that like bone or rib, scapula and 1:47:28.000 --> 1:47:30.560 a rib on the way out complete passed through just 1:47:30.720 --> 1:47:33.360 like you know, you wouldn't hit it hit her anywhere else. 1:47:34.000 --> 1:47:37.679 Long story short, twenty four hours later, after the blood 1:47:37.720 --> 1:47:41.240 trail pretty much disappears, I'm just doing mercy loops and 1:47:41.320 --> 1:47:44.519 I find her. Um. She had gone a mile kind 1:47:44.560 --> 1:47:46.360 of in a circle, but she had fallen into this 1:47:46.479 --> 1:47:49.040 beaver pond, which was lucky for me because she was 1:47:49.120 --> 1:47:52.679 like completely preserved as ice cold. It's so funny gutting 1:47:52.680 --> 1:47:55.719 it gutting an animal story, but I don't know where where, 1:47:55.880 --> 1:47:59.040 like the guts are ice cold. You know. It was 1:47:59.120 --> 1:48:01.519 great for the netcrop because you could really see everything 1:48:01.600 --> 1:48:04.599 that happened, but exactly that it had gone through both 1:48:04.720 --> 1:48:08.160 lungs but had only had a cut on a single axis. 1:48:08.360 --> 1:48:10.120 And all the best I can figure is that that 1:48:10.280 --> 1:48:14.000 whole just it was she was the lungs were able 1:48:14.080 --> 1:48:18.760 to keep that whole together and not lose compression or 1:48:18.880 --> 1:48:22.920 lose was it towards like higher back like towards the 1:48:22.960 --> 1:48:25.200 back of the lungs the black lobes. Man, boy, I 1:48:25.200 --> 1:48:27.800 had to go look at the pictures, but I just 1:48:27.840 --> 1:48:29.519 tell you it was pretty much dead center if I 1:48:29.600 --> 1:48:32.840 can remember. I mean it was, but yeah, but it 1:48:33.000 --> 1:48:36.120 just yeah, she went. We bumped her like at least 1:48:36.200 --> 1:48:38.439 twice the first day, and then we just decided just 1:48:39.040 --> 1:48:40.960 you know, set up camp and sleep and go after 1:48:41.040 --> 1:48:43.800 it again in the morning. The blood just disappeared. You know, 1:48:43.880 --> 1:48:45.880 when I when I hear cases that the guy like 1:48:45.960 --> 1:48:47.960 got a double long shot, but the animal went a 1:48:48.040 --> 1:48:50.519 lot further than it should. I think one thing I've 1:48:50.560 --> 1:48:55.880 seen a lot with um like stainless steel, especially in 1:48:56.400 --> 1:49:00.280 I think mechanicals were there only hardening it to like rack. See, 1:49:00.400 --> 1:49:02.360 is it doesn't hold that edge very well, so it 1:49:02.400 --> 1:49:05.439 gets through hide. You really get through hot the hair 1:49:05.520 --> 1:49:08.280 and hide, and it's dull, and then you're pushing tissue apart, 1:49:08.760 --> 1:49:11.240 so you might poke a hole through and and I've 1:49:11.240 --> 1:49:13.120 done a little testing of this with with a friend 1:49:13.200 --> 1:49:16.280 through like organs and things that you can take a 1:49:16.360 --> 1:49:19.679 liver um saying and push a really sharp broad head 1:49:19.720 --> 1:49:22.320 through it like our um, like the iron Well broad head, 1:49:22.320 --> 1:49:24.479 and you get a complete cross cut that's exactly the 1:49:24.560 --> 1:49:26.720 size of the broadhead through there. And then you take 1:49:26.760 --> 1:49:31.280 a maybe a three blade um that has the blades 1:49:31.320 --> 1:49:33.200 have been dulled from the hide in the hair and 1:49:33.280 --> 1:49:35.200 push it through there and you get a you get 1:49:35.200 --> 1:49:36.880 a hole through it, but you won't get the blades 1:49:36.920 --> 1:49:39.519 to cut the tissue will just kind of push push aside. 1:49:40.400 --> 1:49:43.560 So that's another thing that it's kind of hard to 1:49:43.640 --> 1:49:47.719 measure UM for people when they're doing these different penetration tests, 1:49:47.720 --> 1:49:50.160 they don't really factor that in. But having that sharpness 1:49:50.200 --> 1:49:52.640 and edgey tension, so you're actually slicing tissue all the 1:49:52.680 --> 1:49:55.400 way through, you're cutting a lot more tissue that you're 1:49:55.400 --> 1:49:57.880 not pushing aside, and you get quicker kills for that. 1:49:58.160 --> 1:50:00.599 And I think that bigger hole through the lungs make 1:50:00.680 --> 1:50:04.880 some claps quicker um because you can have and you know, 1:50:04.920 --> 1:50:07.040 I've got a brother that's a pathologist, and I've talked 1:50:07.040 --> 1:50:09.280 to other doctors about this to try and understand, like, 1:50:09.560 --> 1:50:11.200 you know, what it takes to kill an animal, because 1:50:11.240 --> 1:50:15.000 I've seen if you hit an animal high and back 1:50:15.080 --> 1:50:19.200 in the lungs, they can take longer to die. There's 1:50:19.240 --> 1:50:22.800 just less stuff back there. Yeah, there's less bleeding going on. 1:50:23.640 --> 1:50:26.280 And you know, you can remove a lobe and somebody 1:50:26.360 --> 1:50:29.040 can still live right so, um, they can still kind 1:50:29.080 --> 1:50:31.080 of breathe in the front lobes, and I think it 1:50:32.080 --> 1:50:34.080 you need enough of a whole enough air to get 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:36.120 in there to kind of collapse the lungs. And that's 1:50:36.160 --> 1:50:39.280 why sometimes people will see an animal go for minutes 1:50:39.320 --> 1:50:42.519 on a double lung shot. Um. And that's also the 1:50:42.560 --> 1:50:44.120 reason why I like to aim, you know, in that 1:50:44.320 --> 1:50:46.320 vital v close to the top of the heart lung 1:50:46.400 --> 1:50:50.080 area because it's you know, it's risky because those bones around, 1:50:50.200 --> 1:50:51.559 But if you've got the right broadhead that you can 1:50:51.600 --> 1:50:53.920 get through the bone, that's the quick kill. You know, 1:50:54.040 --> 1:50:56.479 that heart top of the heart lung area. It's like 1:50:57.200 --> 1:51:00.479 five seconds then animals dead and you know usually drop 1:51:00.600 --> 1:51:02.960 an in sight if you can hit closer there. Yeah, 1:51:02.960 --> 1:51:05.920 Our buddy Cody Kellum from Born and Raised brought up 1:51:05.920 --> 1:51:08.320 a really good point. We were talking about this stuff 1:51:08.320 --> 1:51:10.920 at the First Light Hooting any last weekend, and he 1:51:11.080 --> 1:51:13.639 was saying, when he was a kid, his dad would 1:51:13.720 --> 1:51:16.800 make him sharpen his broadheads too, and they would take 1:51:16.880 --> 1:51:20.000 like remember when peep sites had that the tubing that 1:51:20.040 --> 1:51:23.479 would keep your peep site down. They would just stretch 1:51:23.600 --> 1:51:26.400 that not too tight. But he'd say, imagine that's an artery, 1:51:26.840 --> 1:51:28.639 and then see how much force it takes your broad 1:51:28.680 --> 1:51:31.120 head to cut that, Like does it just touch it 1:51:31.320 --> 1:51:33.400 and immediately it pops and cuts it, or do you 1:51:33.439 --> 1:51:35.800 have to slice that whole edge across it before it 1:51:35.880 --> 1:51:37.679 cuts right? And it's the same thing when that dull 1:51:37.800 --> 1:51:41.880 broadheads going through that animal. If it's not sharp, those 1:51:42.000 --> 1:51:43.840 arteries can just be literally just moving out of the 1:51:43.920 --> 1:51:46.880 way and it's going through it, but it's not doing 1:51:46.920 --> 1:51:50.519 any damage. And I saw that in the force testing 1:51:50.560 --> 1:51:53.160 I was doing that the so I was pushing on 1:51:53.240 --> 1:51:56.479 different broadhead designs and and a really sharp cut on 1:51:56.600 --> 1:52:00.360 contact to blade versus like a three point chill free 1:52:00.400 --> 1:52:02.439 blade chisel point, there will be about a five times 1:52:02.520 --> 1:52:04.960 difference in force to go through and it's really what 1:52:05.280 --> 1:52:08.719 focused me more on having a two blade on contact tip. 1:52:09.240 --> 1:52:11.439 What I'd see on the on the cheaper steels is 1:52:11.520 --> 1:52:14.280 that if I repeated the test pushed through hide and 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:16.760 hide and muscle again, the forces going way up. So 1:52:16.880 --> 1:52:21.400 they dulled quickly and we're pushing more stuff aside. Let's uh, 1:52:21.720 --> 1:52:25.040 let's do this for a second. Tell me some things 1:52:25.160 --> 1:52:29.479 that like that you see people doing that you can 1:52:29.560 --> 1:52:35.640 just flat out say categorically that is stupid. Yeah, Like, 1:52:35.720 --> 1:52:41.640 there's no nothing, there's no like, there's no logical, reasonable 1:52:43.000 --> 1:52:47.400 whatever to support what you think is true. Like, for instance, 1:52:47.600 --> 1:52:50.680 I sawways believe I was I was raised to understand 1:52:50.800 --> 1:52:55.800 that pine squirrels castrated fox squirrels and gray squirrels, that 1:52:55.840 --> 1:52:59.720 they beat their nuts off. This though I still think 1:52:59.760 --> 1:53:03.720 it's true, I no longer know why because the academic 1:53:03.800 --> 1:53:07.200 community soundly is like, it's not a thing. It's not 1:53:07.360 --> 1:53:10.519 a thing. It's is not a thing. Okay, what are 1:53:10.560 --> 1:53:16.920 people doing that just has no backing? Um, well, this 1:53:17.120 --> 1:53:18.920 is this is the first thing that popped into my mind. 1:53:19.120 --> 1:53:22.200 It's it's kind of a bit of pet peeves everybody's doing. 1:53:22.280 --> 1:53:24.880 There's dozens of people doing broadhead testing out there like 1:53:24.960 --> 1:53:28.400 showing the penetration different broadheads and the shooting ballistic gel 1:53:29.360 --> 1:53:32.559 and go on. It's it's pretty worthless for I mean, 1:53:32.600 --> 1:53:34.880 I shoot it too. It's fun to shoot through it 1:53:35.000 --> 1:53:39.680 and look at it. But ballistics gel um, it's it's 1:53:39.720 --> 1:53:42.240 so freak. There's so much friction on the chaft stopping it. 1:53:42.360 --> 1:53:44.839 They'll test tend different broadheads and they'll have a variation 1:53:44.920 --> 1:53:46.679 of like an inch and they'll pick out a winner 1:53:47.040 --> 1:53:52.200 from that. And I've seen yeah, and I've seen two 1:53:52.200 --> 1:53:54.240 different broadheads that I know will have like a three 1:53:54.320 --> 1:53:57.040 times difference through a through an animal and they'll have 1:53:57.120 --> 1:53:59.639 the same penetration through ballistics gell. It's cool to look 1:53:59.720 --> 1:54:02.400 at it, um, and lots of guys are doing it, 1:54:02.560 --> 1:54:05.559 but it's pretty worthless. But let's explore that for a minute. 1:54:05.600 --> 1:54:08.200 Let's say I came to you and I was going 1:54:08.240 --> 1:54:10.200 to do a bow test. I was gonna do a 1:54:10.240 --> 1:54:15.000 broadhead test. We're just gonna shoot in the blocks of oak. Okay, yeah, 1:54:15.520 --> 1:54:18.360 and declare a winter. Would you say to yourself, Oh, 1:54:18.360 --> 1:54:21.440 if that's the case, I'm gonna go design a broadhead 1:54:21.600 --> 1:54:26.080 really good at shooting through a block of oak, exactly 1:54:26.320 --> 1:54:29.439 like I know a guy that did concrete block. You know, 1:54:29.560 --> 1:54:33.160 it was his test, right, that was a medium. Yeah, 1:54:33.320 --> 1:54:36.720 And I told him, I can design a broadhead's gonna 1:54:36.800 --> 1:54:39.400 look do perfect for that. It's gonna look like a 1:54:40.040 --> 1:54:41.720 it's gonna look like this field point right here, you know, 1:54:41.760 --> 1:54:44.040 a hard and steel field point, and the blades will 1:54:44.040 --> 1:54:46.160 be set back so they never even hit the concrete, 1:54:46.480 --> 1:54:47.960 and you're gonna shoot it into there and you're gonna 1:54:48.000 --> 1:54:49.720 look at it and say, wow, this one didn't get 1:54:49.760 --> 1:54:52.880 damaged at all. This is the best broadhead. But if 1:54:53.120 --> 1:54:54.760 you know, a big chunk of steel in the front, 1:54:54.840 --> 1:54:56.920 big ball of steel, it's not going to be the 1:54:56.960 --> 1:55:00.520 best for penetrant. You're an animals. So it's so target appendant. 1:55:00.640 --> 1:55:04.360 And all these broadhead tests out there, maybe not shouldn't 1:55:04.360 --> 1:55:07.080 say all, but a large number of them are shooting 1:55:07.160 --> 1:55:10.680 through targets that don't apply to animals at all. You 1:55:10.720 --> 1:55:12.720 know what. One of the revelatory moment for me, and 1:55:12.760 --> 1:55:16.240 I still don't understand it is we were calling have 1:55:16.400 --> 1:55:19.840 Alena one time and they come in like if everything 1:55:19.880 --> 1:55:22.760 goes right, they come in like hot right, And in 1:55:22.840 --> 1:55:25.720 the heat of the moment, I accidentally grabbed a field 1:55:25.760 --> 1:55:30.920 point and shot one with it. And that thing you'd think, 1:55:31.000 --> 1:55:32.360 if you'd have asked me, I would have thought it 1:55:32.360 --> 1:55:35.920 would just zip right through it, right, because like, why not? 1:55:36.280 --> 1:55:40.280 There's no big old thing is trying to drag through it, 1:55:40.400 --> 1:55:42.840 like you just matched, it's gonna pencil it. That thing 1:55:42.920 --> 1:55:46.120 didn't do ship to that Hafler. Where'd you hit it? 1:55:46.280 --> 1:55:48.200 I can't even remember now. I just remember it ran off. 1:55:48.280 --> 1:55:52.920 You can see the arrow flopping in its side. But 1:55:53.400 --> 1:55:55.480 why did that not? Does go right? Like I would 1:55:55.480 --> 1:55:57.320 have thought it would just go right through them because 1:55:57.320 --> 1:55:59.680 there's no resistance of trying to pass a big broadhead 1:55:59.720 --> 1:56:02.600 through it. Yeah, I would have. I would have actually 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:04.960 thought there's a chance it could go right through man. 1:56:05.080 --> 1:56:09.800 But it takes a lot of force to penetrate the 1:56:10.480 --> 1:56:11.960 high I don't know about a havling a hide, but 1:56:12.040 --> 1:56:14.080 it didn't bounce off. It just didn't. And maybe it 1:56:14.240 --> 1:56:15.920 was on bone, but I would have been, like my 1:56:16.160 --> 1:56:17.680 thing was, it would have zipped through it and you 1:56:17.720 --> 1:56:20.080 wouldn't maybe be hard to find because it wasn't bleeding 1:56:20.200 --> 1:56:21.960 or something like that. Yeah, I actually would have maybe 1:56:22.000 --> 1:56:25.120 guessed that too, that like can a field point penetrate 1:56:25.160 --> 1:56:27.360 to havling it probably, but it doesn't slice much, so 1:56:28.640 --> 1:56:31.000 not much bleeding and not a not a quick kill. 1:56:31.080 --> 1:56:33.680 But are you were doing that happen? Ye? I was nearby. 1:56:33.720 --> 1:56:35.400 I don't know if I was taking right next to you, 1:56:35.520 --> 1:56:38.200 but we were on the same trip. But you know 1:56:38.320 --> 1:56:41.280 that cone point really takes a lot of force to 1:56:42.080 --> 1:56:45.960 penetrate um, to penetrate high. So can you add that 1:56:46.080 --> 1:56:49.160 to things that you think people do that are stupid? Yeah, 1:56:49.240 --> 1:56:51.800 that would be up. There'll be up there. I actually 1:56:51.840 --> 1:56:54.640 had a customer say that he shot his last shot 1:56:54.680 --> 1:56:56.800 at his elk last year was a field point because 1:56:56.800 --> 1:56:59.920 that's what he had left and how did it do well? 1:57:00.360 --> 1:57:02.480 The elk died right then, but I told him it 1:57:02.600 --> 1:57:04.560 probably died from the other three you know arrows you 1:57:04.640 --> 1:57:08.480 had in it. It was it was, it was, you know, 1:57:08.560 --> 1:57:09.960 it was down. It was going to die anyway. But 1:57:10.120 --> 1:57:12.120 he said that when he shot his last he didn't 1:57:12.120 --> 1:57:14.920 realize as a field point until after he went over there. Yeah, 1:57:15.000 --> 1:57:17.520 it's for the heart, So you know that. That helps 1:57:18.080 --> 1:57:21.520 give me another one. Things you see in the archery 1:57:21.560 --> 1:57:24.960 community that just do not add up to scientific rigor 1:57:26.400 --> 1:57:33.360 foc extreme extreme foc. So because there's this whole thing 1:57:33.520 --> 1:57:41.600 like that the weighted shaft is pushing. No, it's actually pulling. Yeah, 1:57:41.640 --> 1:57:46.800 So there there's really not much scientific basis for that 1:57:47.000 --> 1:57:51.240 high or extreme FOC will increase penetration, you know, at 1:57:51.280 --> 1:57:54.520 least not at the basic level. So so Newton's second 1:57:54.600 --> 1:57:58.240 law motion four sequels mass times acceleration. As we said, 1:57:59.280 --> 1:58:02.680 you rearranged the you get force times time equals mass 1:58:02.760 --> 1:58:08.120 times velocity um. So that's momentum equals force times time. 1:58:08.520 --> 1:58:10.720 Momentum is a is a vector quantity. So it's in 1:58:10.800 --> 1:58:13.240 a straight it's in a straight line, has a direction 1:58:13.320 --> 1:58:17.840 to it. So this is probably the most basic way 1:58:17.880 --> 1:58:21.120 to calculate, you know, how far with this arrow penetrate 1:58:21.360 --> 1:58:24.560 through this animal is? What is that momentum at impact 1:58:24.640 --> 1:58:28.600 it's going to apply this force over time? FOC is 1:58:28.640 --> 1:58:32.200 not in there. So FOC is like where's the center 1:58:32.240 --> 1:58:36.800 of mass located in that arrow? And dr Ashby says 1:58:36.840 --> 1:58:44.480 that going from a nineteen to FOC will increased penetration 1:58:44.560 --> 1:58:50.760 by Okay, the physics wouldn't say that that's only changing 1:58:50.800 --> 1:58:53.760 the center of mass an inch forward. Okay, if that 1:58:53.920 --> 1:58:56.320 arrow is going in a straight line and that mass 1:58:56.440 --> 1:58:59.560 is all along that axis in a straight line going 1:58:59.640 --> 1:59:04.200 into the animal foc doesn't even enter into it. Okay, 1:59:05.360 --> 1:59:08.760 I I think that, you know, with him shooting a 1:59:08.880 --> 1:59:13.120 long bow, you know, a long bow has this archer's paradox. 1:59:13.200 --> 1:59:15.880 It's pretty extreme. You know, your your strings going towards 1:59:15.920 --> 1:59:18.680 the center of the riser, the arrows being mounted off, 1:59:19.040 --> 1:59:21.840 you know, sitting off to the side getting better arrow flight, 1:59:22.680 --> 1:59:25.040 and you need and you need a lot of point 1:59:25.080 --> 1:59:27.960 weight and fairly flexible, fairly low spine to get that 1:59:28.040 --> 1:59:31.160 thing up bend around the the riser and end up 1:59:31.200 --> 1:59:33.480 going straight at the targets. So you've got an excessive 1:59:34.160 --> 1:59:37.880 flexing of that arrow back and forth, and on a 1:59:38.000 --> 1:59:41.480 long bow, especially fifteen to twenty yard shots, I think 1:59:41.560 --> 1:59:44.440 bow tuning and arrow flight trumps everything. And I think 1:59:44.480 --> 1:59:46.800 that was his number two. He said perfect arrow flight, 1:59:47.480 --> 1:59:50.320 which you never really achieved. I don't think a long bow, 1:59:50.400 --> 1:59:55.240 but I think he recognized that arrow flights extremely important 1:59:55.320 --> 1:59:58.640 and it probably and I've talked to other traditional guys 1:59:58.720 --> 2:00:00.720 that are also scientists and do lot of testing, and 2:00:00.760 --> 2:00:04.560 they kind of say arrow bow tuning, arrow flight kind 2:00:04.600 --> 2:00:07.320 of trumps everything. If that arrow is not straight when 2:00:07.360 --> 2:00:12.040 it impacts, if it's bode way over um or if 2:00:12.040 --> 2:00:15.160 it's at some angle, it's really going to kill your penetration. 2:00:15.240 --> 2:00:21.000 That's because that momentum um, that mass times velocity in 2:00:21.080 --> 2:00:23.320 a straight line is what gives you that force times time. 2:00:23.360 --> 2:00:25.240 If it's not in a straight line, if it's bode 2:00:25.280 --> 2:00:27.640 back and forth or off to the side, you know 2:00:27.680 --> 2:00:30.120 you're you're gonna get very poor penetration. And so the 2:00:31.520 --> 2:00:36.560 heavy fo C or the FOC arrows are more um 2:00:37.200 --> 2:00:40.800 might be more forgiving if you have poorly tuned or 2:00:40.920 --> 2:00:45.400 wobbly arrows, but if it's if your ship straight, it 2:00:45.520 --> 2:00:47.760 ceases the matter as much. A lot of the times, 2:00:47.840 --> 2:00:50.560 I think they just correct themselves a lot quicker. You know, 2:00:50.680 --> 2:00:54.600 once you shoot with those heavy FOC arrows still get 2:00:54.640 --> 2:00:57.400 like a lot of flex in the shaft, but it's 2:00:57.440 --> 2:01:01.160 just that heavy gets itself into line. You've that bill. Yeah, 2:01:01.160 --> 2:01:05.080 I think they restore faster. I think that um there's 2:01:05.120 --> 2:01:08.040 a higher frequency of that bending back and forth. I 2:01:08.200 --> 2:01:11.839 think that with more point weight, the fletching gets steered 2:01:12.320 --> 2:01:15.840 straight or quicker. So I think that extreme high and 2:01:15.920 --> 2:01:19.160 extreme foc it was all about arrow flight for him, 2:01:19.640 --> 2:01:23.000 and I don't think so. I don't I think a 2:01:23.080 --> 2:01:25.760 lot of compound guys are applying it right now. It 2:01:25.840 --> 2:01:28.720 doesn't it doesn't really apply. Um. I just did some 2:01:28.800 --> 2:01:31.840 high speed video testing looking at my arrow coming off 2:01:31.920 --> 2:01:36.000 my bow a few weeks ago, and my my arrow 2:01:36.120 --> 2:01:40.040 barely flexes with my bows tuned. UM, And by tuned, 2:01:40.080 --> 2:01:43.320 I mean the knock is pushing, you know, the string 2:01:43.400 --> 2:01:45.480 is pushing the knock directly in line with the rest, 2:01:45.560 --> 2:01:48.080 So the arrows coming straight off the bow. It's not 2:01:48.240 --> 2:01:52.320 fish tailing right left, up or down. There's really minimal flexing, 2:01:52.400 --> 2:01:54.520 like you can barely see maybe a little bit of 2:01:54.680 --> 2:01:58.200 vertical flex but really that's interesting. Yeah, I barely see 2:01:58.200 --> 2:02:02.360 any um and that's why. And I get really good 2:02:02.360 --> 2:02:05.760 flight if I'm optimally spine, and I tested um a 2:02:05.840 --> 2:02:08.840 little weak optionally spine and a little overspined, and I 2:02:08.960 --> 2:02:11.560 was I was seeing kind of barely any flexing, so 2:02:11.720 --> 2:02:15.240 I was going very straight, you know, say a foot 2:02:15.320 --> 2:02:17.280 or a couple of feet off of the bow. Then 2:02:17.360 --> 2:02:20.680 I think FOC has a minimal effect. I think it's 2:02:20.720 --> 2:02:22.840 just mass time velocity in that straight line that gives 2:02:22.840 --> 2:02:26.600 you the penetration. And I'd see a ton of people. UM. 2:02:26.840 --> 2:02:29.240 I have friends that are customer looking at one right now, 2:02:29.440 --> 2:02:32.960 is Joe foc over here? Joe, I mean I don't 2:02:32.960 --> 2:02:35.560 think I actually don't think it. I don't think it hurts. 2:02:35.760 --> 2:02:39.280 I mean I don't think higher mass, higher FOC, you know, 2:02:39.440 --> 2:02:43.440 hurt anything other than trajectory. Um. And if you're shooting 2:02:44.320 --> 2:02:47.160 closer um. And I and I tell a lot of 2:02:47.160 --> 2:02:49.440 people this, you know, if you're if you're shooting closer 2:02:49.600 --> 2:02:51.640 range and you can get your bow to tune and shoot, well, 2:02:51.880 --> 2:02:54.120 go for it. The issue I see with it, and 2:02:54.160 --> 2:02:56.720 I know a number of customarial builders they'll have a 2:02:56.760 --> 2:02:59.960 customer come to them and say I gotta have twenty 2:03:00.040 --> 2:03:04.880 percent FOC and they'll say, well, um, I can get 2:03:04.920 --> 2:03:07.240 you there, but you're gonna be underspined, you know, really 2:03:07.280 --> 2:03:09.160 with your arrow and bow set up to get that high, 2:03:09.200 --> 2:03:10.920 I'm gonna have to put more point weight. We can't 2:03:10.920 --> 2:03:14.320 get an narrow spine, you know, because they don't make 2:03:14.960 --> 2:03:18.560 aero spines heavy enough to handle that. Right. Yeah, It's 2:03:18.600 --> 2:03:22.400 hard for me with a thirty straw to get foc. 2:03:22.520 --> 2:03:24.520 I've gotta have a lot of mass up there, and 2:03:24.560 --> 2:03:26.840 I'm gonna be probably underspined. And I see a lot 2:03:26.880 --> 2:03:30.320 of guys that choose the mass and the high foc 2:03:31.320 --> 2:03:34.080 over ero flight, and that's that's a big mistake, I think, 2:03:34.280 --> 2:03:36.840 and that's that's why I'd like people to to quit 2:03:36.960 --> 2:03:39.520 doing UM if you can get it all to work out, 2:03:39.640 --> 2:03:42.160 if you can get high mass, high foc and like 2:03:42.280 --> 2:03:46.400 perfect ero flight UM. And I think the best test 2:03:46.480 --> 2:03:49.560 for this for people out there, I mean a tune 2:03:49.600 --> 2:03:52.000 bow and an arrow, which means your arrows coming straight 2:03:52.040 --> 2:03:56.400 off your bow is really important for fixed broadheads to 2:03:56.440 --> 2:03:59.760 fly well and penetration. And the test I like to 2:03:59.800 --> 2:04:02.960 do is shoot a bear shaft. We can shoot through paper, 2:04:03.440 --> 2:04:05.520 you know, ten twelve feet or something. That's a that's 2:04:05.560 --> 2:04:09.000 a decent test, but say shoot at twenty to thirty 2:04:09.080 --> 2:04:12.120 yards with a bear shaft and a flat shaft. And 2:04:12.160 --> 2:04:14.520 I like to just take one of my arrows, cut 2:04:14.600 --> 2:04:18.160 the veins off so there, you know, eighth answer very short, 2:04:18.240 --> 2:04:19.960 so there's no really no vein to it. Maybe even 2:04:20.000 --> 2:04:23.080 wrap a piece of metal duct tape on it to 2:04:23.120 --> 2:04:25.080 get the weight the same in the back, you know, 2:04:25.160 --> 2:04:27.360 within within say five to ten grains, so it's going 2:04:27.400 --> 2:04:30.200 to act the same. And shoot those two together at 2:04:30.680 --> 2:04:34.040 at twenty yards and then maybe thirty yards what you'll 2:04:34.040 --> 2:04:37.080 see is, for instance, I'll take my bow out of 2:04:37.120 --> 2:04:40.280 tune to test test veins and how well they stabilize. 2:04:40.880 --> 2:04:43.280 And what I see is um if you're out of tune, 2:04:43.920 --> 2:04:46.400 if your arrows say tail right coming out of the bow, 2:04:47.400 --> 2:04:50.880 well you're you're fletched arrow might hit the bull's eye 2:04:50.920 --> 2:04:53.280 because even though it's going to tail right, the veins 2:04:53.400 --> 2:04:56.720 quickly correct it and straighten it out. Well, a bear 2:04:56.800 --> 2:04:59.200 shaft doesn't get corrected, so it stays a little tail 2:04:59.280 --> 2:05:02.480 right and it'll hit left, and you know, it will 2:05:02.560 --> 2:05:05.960 reveal the It'll show you that this arrow not coming 2:05:06.040 --> 2:05:08.560 straight out of the bow. And you know I was. 2:05:09.320 --> 2:05:12.160 I adjusted it until I was getting that bear shaft 2:05:12.240 --> 2:05:14.520 to hit a foot left at you know, forty yards. 2:05:14.720 --> 2:05:17.440 And then I was looking at different veins and different 2:05:17.480 --> 2:05:21.600 broadheads to see, like, which veins stabilized broadheads the best. 2:05:22.760 --> 2:05:24.120 You know, even though I was getting a bear shaft 2:05:24.160 --> 2:05:26.680 to hit a foot over with the right veins and 2:05:26.800 --> 2:05:32.240 are say, are r broadhead something that's relatively compact with 2:05:32.360 --> 2:05:34.800 the right veins, I could get field points and broadheads 2:05:34.840 --> 2:05:37.240 is still hit within a couple of inches at forty yards, 2:05:37.360 --> 2:05:43.760 But the bigger, wider broadheads you have, the more unstable 2:05:43.800 --> 2:05:45.760 it is or the more you need to correct it. 2:05:45.920 --> 2:05:50.400 And then those might be hitting five six inches well, 2:05:50.520 --> 2:05:52.840 five six inches off with small veins, but then if 2:05:52.880 --> 2:05:55.640 you had a taller, higher profile vein, I could pull 2:05:55.680 --> 2:05:58.520 those back into maybe a couple inches as well. So 2:05:59.120 --> 2:06:01.200 that's another area that I'm spending more time on and 2:06:01.240 --> 2:06:04.720 I think is really important is educating people on how 2:06:04.760 --> 2:06:08.080 to get fixed blade bride haas to fly well for him, um, 2:06:08.880 --> 2:06:11.480 because I think that's keeping some people, you know, shooting 2:06:11.520 --> 2:06:15.000 mechanicals because they can't get fixed has a shoe well 2:06:15.080 --> 2:06:17.040 for him. And they've yeah, they've made it so easy. 2:06:17.080 --> 2:06:19.720 And that's a big story that they used to sell those, right, 2:06:19.960 --> 2:06:23.080 is that those smaller heads they're easy to They shoot 2:06:23.160 --> 2:06:26.400 just like your field you Right, if you can't get 2:06:26.760 --> 2:06:29.560 if you can't get a relatively compact fixed blade head 2:06:29.760 --> 2:06:32.600 to shoot well for you, there's something wrong with your 2:06:32.720 --> 2:06:34.800 arrow flight. Yeah, your bows out of tune. Yeah, your 2:06:34.840 --> 2:06:37.400 bows out of tune. And even though the mechanical is 2:06:37.760 --> 2:06:39.600 going to hit closer to the field point, and that's 2:06:39.680 --> 2:06:42.120 kind of the tradeoff, you know, they're more forgiving, they're 2:06:42.120 --> 2:06:44.320 gonna hit closer to field points. You're both still awed, 2:06:44.520 --> 2:06:46.480 You're both still on t and your arrow And it 2:06:46.560 --> 2:06:48.360 might not just when we say bows out of tune. 2:06:48.360 --> 2:06:51.160 It might not just be that your bows not pushing 2:06:51.240 --> 2:06:53.360 your arrows straight. It could also be that you have 2:06:53.480 --> 2:06:57.960 the wrong arrow. You could be underspined. Yeah, yeah, real quick, 2:06:58.600 --> 2:07:01.000 this last question, we gotta wrap it up. Oh well, 2:07:04.880 --> 2:07:06.880 when I was like researching a bunch of this FOC 2:07:07.080 --> 2:07:08.800 stuff and trying to figure out what I wanted in 2:07:08.880 --> 2:07:12.680 my arrow set up, I kept running into that penetration 2:07:12.760 --> 2:07:15.680 penetration like over and over again, but nobody really justified why. 2:07:15.800 --> 2:07:18.360 But then I saw one article that was like, well, 2:07:19.160 --> 2:07:22.560 if you have a higher FOC, that means that you 2:07:22.680 --> 2:07:25.400 can shoot a stiffer spine because it will be able 2:07:25.440 --> 2:07:27.440 to like kind of break down that spine as it 2:07:27.520 --> 2:07:30.360 goes down range, just like that flex in it. But 2:07:30.480 --> 2:07:35.640 once it impacts, that stiffer spine will have all that 2:07:35.840 --> 2:07:38.360 energy like directly behind it, like so it won't like 2:07:38.680 --> 2:07:41.440 dissipate by wiggling a whole bunch once it comes in 2:07:41.520 --> 2:07:44.280 contact with the target. That was the only thing that 2:07:44.360 --> 2:07:47.280 I've ever seen that I was like, Okay, I think 2:07:47.360 --> 2:07:50.600 that like FOC and penetration makes a little bit of sense, 2:07:50.840 --> 2:07:52.520 but it seems like you don't think that, and I'm 2:07:52.840 --> 2:07:56.800 more inclined to defer to you there. I'm just wondering, Well, Um, 2:07:57.800 --> 2:07:59.560 the thing I like about FOC and I kind of 2:07:59.600 --> 2:08:01.640 like that wall up to sixteen percent range, is it 2:08:01.880 --> 2:08:05.480 is improved stability because it the center mass is kind 2:08:05.520 --> 2:08:08.000 of the pivot point. When you have let's say your 2:08:08.080 --> 2:08:10.720 arrow comes off a little bit um say tail low, 2:08:11.200 --> 2:08:13.720 and you've got this wind wind across the broad head 2:08:13.920 --> 2:08:16.320 that's going to create a little bit lift, and you've 2:08:16.400 --> 2:08:18.960 got this this wind across the veins that are gonna 2:08:19.240 --> 2:08:22.800 apply this restoring force, and the pivot points the center mass. 2:08:23.200 --> 2:08:25.360 So as you move that forward, you get more you know, 2:08:25.440 --> 2:08:28.040 you get better stability because the veins have a longer 2:08:28.120 --> 2:08:33.080 level arm and better UM. I think if you take 2:08:33.120 --> 2:08:35.440 that to an extreme, if you have low FOC to 2:08:35.520 --> 2:08:37.200 where you have a bunch of mass on the back, 2:08:37.840 --> 2:08:39.960 then I can see an issue that when you impact 2:08:40.120 --> 2:08:43.200 something that mass at the back, that arrow cann act 2:08:43.680 --> 2:08:46.000 you know more like more like a spring or or 2:08:46.040 --> 2:08:48.240 if it's not perfectly centered, that mass can pull it 2:08:48.320 --> 2:08:51.200 off to the side. Um. So I think there can 2:08:51.240 --> 2:08:53.360 be something a little bit to that, but I don't 2:08:53.440 --> 2:08:56.680 think you know, changing that center mass point by by 2:08:56.760 --> 2:08:59.080 a half inch or an inch, that's that's what we're 2:08:59.080 --> 2:09:01.880 really talking about as that big of an effect. Yeah, 2:09:02.040 --> 2:09:04.280 I was saying word because like you and you're able 2:09:04.360 --> 2:09:07.440 to increase the spine when it hits like you would 2:09:07.480 --> 2:09:10.280 have everything just piling up sort of behind that rather 2:09:10.400 --> 2:09:13.800 than like a low or a high flex sort of 2:09:13.840 --> 2:09:15.960 spine like a four hundred spine or something. Where it 2:09:16.040 --> 2:09:18.160 hits it, it's gonna go like a doorstop kind of 2:09:18.240 --> 2:09:22.520 before it goes in. Yeah, I think, yeah, you know, 2:09:22.520 --> 2:09:24.320 all comes down to that keeping the momentum in the 2:09:24.360 --> 2:09:27.200 straight line. So if you have if your arrow is 2:09:27.200 --> 2:09:30.720 going straight at impact, you've got that more mass up 2:09:30.760 --> 2:09:33.600 front um, it's going to be better than more mass 2:09:33.640 --> 2:09:36.200 at the back, because I was say, it's probably gonna 2:09:36.200 --> 2:09:38.320 be more likely to stay in that straight line versus 2:09:38.360 --> 2:09:41.320 having mass at the back that might that might take 2:09:41.360 --> 2:09:44.080 it off course a little bit. That's how I would 2:09:44.120 --> 2:09:46.120 look at it. Okay, I got three more questions. Are 2:09:46.160 --> 2:09:48.880 you playing trivia with us if you want me to, 2:09:49.040 --> 2:09:52.160 because there's one question too, how do you think you'll do? 2:09:53.800 --> 2:09:57.920 Probably not, well, don't He'll throw your bone. I'll suarantee 2:09:58.080 --> 2:10:01.240 he'll throw your bone. Never do not me the guy 2:10:01.320 --> 2:10:04.120 that hosts Spencer, he'll throw you out like a mechanical 2:10:04.200 --> 2:10:06.720 engineering question. But he won't do anything like that for me. 2:10:08.280 --> 2:10:09.760 Third questions, how do people find? You know? How do 2:10:09.840 --> 2:10:12.200 people find so they can check out? You don't advertise 2:10:12.240 --> 2:10:13.320 the whole hell of a lot. You're most like a 2:10:13.360 --> 2:10:16.440 word of mouth kind of thing. We've been a lot 2:10:16.520 --> 2:10:18.600 of word of mouth. Yeah, we don't do spend a 2:10:18.600 --> 2:10:22.879 lot on marketing. Um, spend most of the time on engineering, 2:10:23.440 --> 2:10:26.680 but um, iron Wall Outfitters is our website, iron Well 2:10:26.680 --> 2:10:29.760 off Fitters dot com. We're on Instagram, Facebook, things like 2:10:29.840 --> 2:10:33.840 that too. YouTube channel, Oh yeah, okay, yeah, we're trying 2:10:33.880 --> 2:10:35.560 to show I need to get on here to find 2:10:35.560 --> 2:10:37.080 out how to sharp my broadheads. You said you got 2:10:37.120 --> 2:10:38.800 a good video about it. We do have a video 2:10:38.840 --> 2:10:40.560 on there. Yeah. And I'm gonna try and do more 2:10:40.800 --> 2:10:44.280 this next year to kind of educate you know, the 2:10:44.360 --> 2:10:47.480 science of bow hunting and try and um, yeah, get 2:10:47.520 --> 2:10:51.120 more knowledge there. That's great. Yeah, all right, trying to 2:10:51.120 --> 2:10:52.400 think how you can do in trivia? What do you 2:10:52.440 --> 2:10:54.840 think I can't believe you're not gonna let us talk 2:10:54.840 --> 2:10:58.720 about single bevel like I want to spend like one 2:11:00.000 --> 2:11:01.640 spend a minute on it, one minute, ask you a question, 2:11:01.800 --> 2:11:06.360 you know, five minutes talk Phil. I'm not even gonna 2:11:06.400 --> 2:11:10.200 look at Phil right now. I wouldn't. Okay, let's go, 2:11:11.280 --> 2:11:16.720 let's do it. I don't have you make both offitters, 2:11:16.760 --> 2:11:21.120 make single bevel and double bevel broadheads. Yeah, maybe just 2:11:21.200 --> 2:11:24.280 a quick rundown pros and cons. Yeah, so I don't 2:11:24.320 --> 2:11:26.320 care which which one you want to pick. I I've 2:11:26.360 --> 2:11:28.040 got a I've got a dog in both fights. So 2:11:28.240 --> 2:11:32.200 it's it's um. This is just my personal um testing 2:11:32.280 --> 2:11:35.320 and what I've found, you know, initially like double bevel better. 2:11:35.520 --> 2:11:41.040 I feel like it's inherently a bit stronger UM. That 2:11:41.200 --> 2:11:46.080 combination of sharpness and strength is a bit higher there 2:11:46.080 --> 2:11:48.080 because you have equal pressure on both sides and it's 2:11:48.200 --> 2:11:51.840 driving through something. And what I saw with single bevel, 2:11:51.920 --> 2:11:54.520 with all that pressure on one side one bevel, you're 2:11:54.560 --> 2:11:56.800 more likely to want to bend that edge or break 2:11:56.880 --> 2:12:01.320 out that edge. And I've seen have personal experience that 2:12:01.560 --> 2:12:04.680 corroborates that, and I've talked to people that shoot a 2:12:04.680 --> 2:12:06.640 lot of single bevels and that is a known thing 2:12:06.760 --> 2:12:09.520 and nobody because you're getting full pass these A lot 2:12:09.560 --> 2:12:11.320 of times you don't know if it's happening in the animal, 2:12:11.320 --> 2:12:14.040 if it's happening in the dirt, but you see a 2:12:14.120 --> 2:12:15.760 lot of times. It's interesting too that it's only on 2:12:15.920 --> 2:12:18.840 one of the two blades, but you have some very 2:12:18.960 --> 2:12:23.880 like extreme waving, nous corruption whatever you want to chinking 2:12:24.000 --> 2:12:27.200 or chipping out edge or just bending right. And I 2:12:27.280 --> 2:12:28.640 saw that and that's why I was more of a 2:12:28.680 --> 2:12:31.840 double bebel guy for years UM and it was really 2:12:31.920 --> 2:12:34.520 through a lot of customers asking pushing forward that a 2:12:34.560 --> 2:12:37.200 couple of years ago I started. I started thinking, well, 2:12:37.200 --> 2:12:40.800 I've only tested other single bevels, you know against my 2:12:40.920 --> 2:12:43.160 broadhead that's got a better steel, better sharpness, so I 2:12:43.240 --> 2:12:45.600 really should make one the best I can and test it. 2:12:46.240 --> 2:12:48.120 And I still saw the issue when I was done 2:12:48.160 --> 2:12:50.400 at twenty five degrees, and I talked to dr Ashby 2:12:50.440 --> 2:12:53.480 actually got his input on single bebel designs, and he like, 2:12:53.680 --> 2:12:57.640 he likes single bevel um at five degrees, and I 2:12:57.720 --> 2:12:59.640 feel like, I feel like some of us testing was 2:13:00.040 --> 2:13:03.120 found it. He had a shallower total angle as well 2:13:03.200 --> 2:13:05.760 as a single bevel, so it was a bit sharper too. 2:13:06.160 --> 2:13:10.640 But anyways, I found that hive degree single bevel wasn't 2:13:10.640 --> 2:13:14.000 as strong as our nineteen degree per side or thirty 2:13:14.040 --> 2:13:15.920 eight degree total double bevel, and I had to go 2:13:16.040 --> 2:13:17.760 up to thirty two degrees until I got to the 2:13:17.800 --> 2:13:20.800 point where it, um, it wasn't getting damaged on just 2:13:20.920 --> 2:13:25.240 heavy bone impact. Um. The cool thing about it is 2:13:25.480 --> 2:13:30.480 they create rotation. So if you as they impact that animal, 2:13:30.600 --> 2:13:32.920 let's say you your right flesh and your arrows rotating 2:13:33.040 --> 2:13:36.560 right when you hit that animal with the pressure on 2:13:36.640 --> 2:13:39.160 that bevel is gonna push when to push that bevel over. 2:13:39.760 --> 2:13:41.800 So let's say your top one gets pushed right in, 2:13:41.840 --> 2:13:43.600 your bottom one gets pushed left, and it's going to 2:13:43.760 --> 2:13:47.920 rotate or continue that rotation through the animals. So what 2:13:48.000 --> 2:13:50.640 does that makes sense? Steve? I don't know if that's 2:13:50.640 --> 2:13:53.920 good or bad. Why single bevel rotates through the medium? 2:13:54.120 --> 2:13:56.040 I mean, try it. If you got a single bevel knife, 2:13:56.080 --> 2:13:57.600 try to cut a piece of cheese street and you're 2:13:57.600 --> 2:14:01.320 gonna drive a positive or negative. Well, I've kind of 2:14:01.440 --> 2:14:03.320 felt it was a negative because it's going to take 2:14:03.360 --> 2:14:09.000 more energy, It's not gonna slice through the path is longer, right, right. Um, 2:14:09.880 --> 2:14:12.760 what I what I find is that the positives are 2:14:13.080 --> 2:14:16.000 is that what the hole looks like, you know, the 2:14:16.320 --> 2:14:19.040 entrance hole, especially with our so I make a single 2:14:19.080 --> 2:14:21.240 balble with single bubble bleeders, so the bleaders have that 2:14:21.320 --> 2:14:23.560 ground on that single balbble ground on them too. In 2:14:23.640 --> 2:14:26.120 that rotation, I often get holes through the high that 2:14:26.160 --> 2:14:30.400 looked like a square versus um are double bobble. It's 2:14:30.440 --> 2:14:32.680 more like a you know, a T shape or cross 2:14:32.720 --> 2:14:36.480 shape because it's just slicing straight in, whereas that cutting 2:14:36.520 --> 2:14:41.440 while rotating. So I think the advantages um are that 2:14:41.640 --> 2:14:43.560 the holes can be a bit more open and maybe 2:14:43.600 --> 2:14:46.840 a bit more trauma, you know, as it's cutting through things. 2:14:47.600 --> 2:14:49.920 I feel like the momentum, that rotational momentum of the 2:14:50.080 --> 2:14:53.440 arrow already at impact provides some of that maybe additional 2:14:53.560 --> 2:14:56.000 energy it takes to rotate. So you know, I shot 2:14:56.040 --> 2:14:57.800 my elk with a single bubble last year had great, 2:14:58.040 --> 2:15:01.800 great penetration. Um. What I'm seeing is they both penetrate 2:15:01.880 --> 2:15:05.960 really well, they both perform really well, they both breach, 2:15:06.120 --> 2:15:09.400 they both split bone really well. And that's something dr 2:15:09.480 --> 2:15:13.480 Ashby said, is that only single bevel um splits bone. Well, 2:15:14.400 --> 2:15:16.400 maybe it's because we are at a different energy level. 2:15:16.520 --> 2:15:18.880 But I see that they both are really pop bone 2:15:18.920 --> 2:15:23.160 and split bone apart, really kind of equally well, so performances, 2:15:23.720 --> 2:15:28.400 amount of force you're saying, yeah, very similar. Um Anyway, 2:15:28.480 --> 2:15:30.560 I I think they both worked well. I think what's 2:15:30.560 --> 2:15:36.520 more important is having hard, very sharp edges, good edge retension, 2:15:36.680 --> 2:15:39.720 and have the blades tough enough to be able to 2:15:39.800 --> 2:15:43.840 hit bone and keep going. Thank you for that, Phil, 2:15:43.920 --> 2:15:46.520 Thank you for giving me those extra few minutes was 2:15:47.240 --> 2:15:54.440 my pleasure. Definitely my call. Alright, Iron Will Outfitters. Yes, 2:15:55.280 --> 2:15:57.400 go check out the Broadheads. Check them out. I need 2:15:57.440 --> 2:15:59.560 to show you the bore who I shot through the 2:15:59.600 --> 2:16:01.400 forehead phone of your broadheads. You might like the hole 2:16:01.440 --> 2:16:06.440 in there? Did you? Was that in self defense? Okay? No, 2:16:07.080 --> 2:16:08.800 you said it was coming back at you, so no, no, No, 2:16:08.960 --> 2:16:11.840 he was after I shot a prig prior and that 2:16:11.960 --> 2:16:15.040 pig was raising a ruckus in it called in the board. 2:16:15.720 --> 2:16:18.800 I've seen that before. Yeah, he was real worked up. 2:16:19.680 --> 2:16:24.240 He liked what he was hearing. All right, let's move on. 2:16:25.080 --> 2:16:26.600 Let's let's turn it off so that I can just 2:16:26.640 --> 2:16:33.280 ask him some off air questions. You feel like you 2:16:33.320 --> 2:16:36.800 feel like sticking around good night, everybody you feel like 2:16:36.840 --> 2:16:41.320 stick around. Phil will continue to record the conversation. Thanks 2:16:41.520 --> 2:16:46.160 are using a jake too and then on sand paper 2:16:46.800 --> 2:16:49.760 or I just retained really well so you can shoot. 2:16:50.200 --> 2:16:53.120 If you shoot ten times in a target, I can't 2:16:53.120 --> 2:16:55.880 even measure it difference. So he really a lot of 2:16:55.959 --> 2:16:59.160 times target shooting. Right now, I'll just take a white 2:17:00.160 --> 2:17:02.840 plas don't white as true.