Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to podcast,
Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear
Speaker 1: for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. All right,
Speaker 1: everybody joined the day by by your honest We tell
Speaker 1: us I haven't seen someone in my heart aches, you
Speaker 1: haven't seen me so long. You introduced me like a guest.
Speaker 1: The hell where you been? Dude? We went? It was
Speaker 1: very abrupt. I was thinking about that the other day.
Speaker 1: We hunt used to hang out every day like brothers,
Speaker 1: like nuts on a dog. Then something changed. They were like, ah,
Speaker 1: you gotta do your and show Yohanny. And the next
Speaker 1: thing you know, it's been months, nearly a phone call.
Speaker 1: I don't even know where he's at. I feel like
Speaker 1: I do more to keep in touch, though, because remember,
Speaker 1: like I asked, if you want to come get some
Speaker 1: fish and stuff like that, Yeah, you can steal fish
Speaker 1: out of the freezer here, did you mystery? Well, listen,
Speaker 1: we're bringing in Uh, we haven't found him yet, but
Speaker 1: we're we got some hot leads. On we're bringing into
Speaker 1: polygraph Examiner, and you're the first guy getting polygraph Chester.
Speaker 1: There's a literal bounty posted for this. We're going to
Speaker 1: bring in a polygraph and I'm gonna start peeling people
Speaker 1: in here, and we're gonna have a guy right on
Speaker 1: air polygraphing people. I can tell you this much. You
Speaker 1: start out with some softballs. You're like where you from? Chester,
Speaker 1: because it sets like a little baseline right, and then
Speaker 1: you get into the stuff like, so did you put
Speaker 1: the freezer the where's the cooler? Chester? I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know where the cooler is. It could be that
Speaker 1: one sitting right that was empty sitting in there. We're
Speaker 1: gonna get to it. It's so bad for the person
Speaker 1: that accidentally took that film accidentally. I got another way.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna trick people into festing up too, because there
Speaker 1: was some baracouta in there. What had my baracouter? I
Speaker 1: froze the whole baracouter to experiment with it. That you
Speaker 1: told me to keep the barracouta in my freezer first spencer,
Speaker 1: so we didn't lose the baracout No glad to pursue
Speaker 1: that Glad, I didn't pursue that line of investigation. We'll
Speaker 1: find out. I got my eyes on your chester because
Speaker 1: the polygraph examiner is gonna probably want to talk to you,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna talk to him about how to lead
Speaker 1: an investigation. We're probably gonna try to bring in someone
Speaker 1: who deals with sex crimes. But what do you think?
Speaker 1: What do you think I did? What would you think? Like?
Speaker 1: I don't eat fish, so why would I take it?
Speaker 1: Because if if we were conducting, if we if we
Speaker 1: brought detectives in, they'd probably first talk to you. I'm
Speaker 1: just guessing us that's Paul Lewis. W'd be like, he's
Speaker 1: just space Cannady has idea what happened before we get
Speaker 1: into our main He's not actually our main guest. Oh
Speaker 1: you were hunting up in Alaska. We didn't talk about
Speaker 1: that yet. No, Yeah, with Jordan Bud we're hunting cariboo.
Speaker 1: It was fun. It was great fun bears. We saw
Speaker 1: one sal with a couple of cubs, same thing like
Speaker 1: we saw last time, like super blonde, like mega fuzzy.
Speaker 1: You know, even at two miles you can see the sALS,
Speaker 1: you know for blowing in the wind and the cubs
Speaker 1: had they been by themselves. You just said, oh, there's
Speaker 1: two small black bears. Huh, yeah, I remember we saw
Speaker 1: that when we're on that sheet punk and uh yeah,
Speaker 1: one wolf try to buy a camp, but maybe hundred
Speaker 1: fifty yards and uh, but we do an alder you
Speaker 1: pulled and fling one out there on them. No, we
Speaker 1: just had our bows and arrows. We had a rifle.
Speaker 1: Maybe we would have. But it was good until we
Speaker 1: had two good days of cariboo action. And then the
Speaker 1: cariboo faucet got turned off. The turn left right or
Speaker 1: something them. Yeah, do you think you were at the
Speaker 1: end of the herd swung different directions that early. I
Speaker 1: learned a lot about caribou movement because we actually got
Speaker 1: to talk to the local biologists right before we flew out.
Speaker 1: He stopped by it and chit chatted, and uh that
Speaker 1: early there is no real migration. And in general, that
Speaker 1: forty mile herd doesn't have like I always thought it
Speaker 1: was a very uh sort I guess, like a linear
Speaker 1: east to west movement. It's not. It's a circular movement
Speaker 1: that sometimes goes counterclockwise, sometimes goes clockwise, and they happen
Speaker 1: to go into Canada and back into the Alaska, you know,
Speaker 1: as they do this movement, but the earlier in the season,
Speaker 1: the more spread out they are, and the more they're
Speaker 1: just smaller groups and just going other different directions. And
Speaker 1: you've always I've always heard how erratic caribou can be,
Speaker 1: and we've kind of seen erratic movement on the hunts
Speaker 1: that we've been on together. But I mean, this was
Speaker 1: seriously like watching them and we didn't have any bugs.
Speaker 1: I'll preface it with that, like super cold night the
Speaker 1: for night we got there, and so really no bugs
Speaker 1: the entire week, so it wasn't bugs. But you'd just
Speaker 1: be watching a caribou just moving let's say straight east, hypothetically,
Speaker 1: stops and feeds for ten fifteen minutes, picks up his head,
Speaker 1: turns nine degrees, and sprints two yards. He's not getting
Speaker 1: bugs on him, no, and then stops and feeds a
Speaker 1: little bit, and maybe he stops for thirty seconds and
Speaker 1: pulls the shame ship again, or he stops for anyone
Speaker 1: that I always thought it like he's just getting clear
Speaker 1: of his flies. I mean, just like maddening to the
Speaker 1: point where you're like, well, we're gonna put a stock
Speaker 1: on that one. Let's go two hundred yards towards like
Speaker 1: behind it, because the thing might just turn around and
Speaker 1: run towards us. Like we like, it was very hard
Speaker 1: to pick him off or to get ahead of him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were just like that might be a defense mechanism,
Speaker 1: I pointed Alaska. The last two years I saw the
Speaker 1: same thing. They might stop in and feed or just
Speaker 1: stand still for a couple of minutes and then just
Speaker 1: pick up and run and and the bucks weren't bad,
Speaker 1: So I thought so too, mate. Maybe they know like
Speaker 1: I can't stay still too long. Yeah, that definitely could
Speaker 1: be ye that That was the voice of Bill vander
Speaker 1: Hayden from Iron Will Broadheads, who Kran pointed out here.
Speaker 1: Uh he was. He graduated number one out of one thousand,
Speaker 1: two d and thirty two students at the University of
Speaker 1: Wisconsin mechanical Engineering. He's gonna talking about Broadhead. He's gonna
Speaker 1: shuck the corn on Broadheads. It's gonna drop some science
Speaker 1: on it. He's gonna drop some science on us. And
Speaker 1: there's gonna there's there's there's Broadhead controversy too. I don't
Speaker 1: know if people are aware of that. We're gonna get
Speaker 1: into because we're gonna talk about what happens when you
Speaker 1: shoot sharp stuff at animals, um and and what goes
Speaker 1: on there and and and how your success in your
Speaker 1: failure can come down to what equipment you use and
Speaker 1: not just where you put it, but what happens once
Speaker 1: you put it there. Um. Oh, real quick too, we
Speaker 1: got someone waiting on the line. We have the Angler
Speaker 1: of the Year waiting on the line. We're not talking
Speaker 1: about Wally, We're talking about the real anger of the year. Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, I was trying to think of like like
Speaker 1: because because this whole thing, like I don't want to
Speaker 1: be demeaning, but I was thinking like like bass fishing, No,
Speaker 1: I don't, like I would I would rather have one
Speaker 1: wall than ten lar. I grew up in a large
Speaker 1: mouth lake which I want to fish with Brandon who's
Speaker 1: on the phone. But I have one wall than ten bass.
Speaker 1: So I don't mean this as like I'm not this
Speaker 1: isn't a dig, but the bass anger of the Year,
Speaker 1: that's like the NBA. Yeah, when the wall Angle of
Speaker 1: the years like the w n B A like meaning
Speaker 1: like it just has a lot less awareness, like a
Speaker 1: lot less awareness. Is that fair? I don't know about
Speaker 1: the w n b A. It might even be like
Speaker 1: a lot less awareness, might be like college lacrosse. I
Speaker 1: was listening to listen. I was listening. Okay, here's the thing.
Speaker 1: I was listening to Bill Burr's new special. Let let's
Speaker 1: watch him walk this back. I only thought of this
Speaker 1: because I was watching and Bill. I was watching Bill
Speaker 1: Burr's new special, and Bill ber is talking about, uh,
Speaker 1: these conversations, these endless conversations about the w n b A.
Speaker 1: What he likes to do is he likes to go
Speaker 1: to his friends who are women, and say, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: name me your top your your favorite five w NBA players,
Speaker 1: And he finds that no one can name the people
Speaker 1: that are like like, oh, you can't name one? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So that was that was That was his point. I
Speaker 1: think everybody can name one with the one now that's
Speaker 1: in the Russian for having like some for having a
Speaker 1: little bit anyhow, Oh, Chester Chester is in way over
Speaker 1: his waiters, What do you mean Chester is going? Chester
Speaker 1: is opening announcement. You people have our tickets on sale.
Speaker 1: Yet if you get Chester, it used to be if
Speaker 1: you wanted to see If I wanted to see Chester,
Speaker 1: I used to just call him up. I gotta go
Speaker 1: to ticket Master ticket Master if you want to pay
Speaker 1: eight dollar service charge. I gotta go to Ticketmaster to
Speaker 1: see Chester because Chester is opening for Trampled by Turtles
Speaker 1: in Atlanta. Chester is traveling to Atlanta and opening. If
Speaker 1: you want to see him, take it up with Ticketmaster.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be great. Or I can tell you where
Speaker 1: he lives. I'm even I'm trying to write some some
Speaker 1: catchy originals to Chester went from being he didn't pick
Speaker 1: up a guitar? How many years ago, like a little
Speaker 1: over two years now, dude is skipping in line, skipping
Speaker 1: in line. Dave thought he had town. Does he tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what your plan is. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna show. I'm gonna play for to You're going to
Speaker 1: write original so you're mostly gonna sing covers. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: sing some covers, Yeah, mostly covers, and then if I
Speaker 1: feel that my originals are up to par and not
Speaker 1: too cheesy, I'll play a couple of them. What I
Speaker 1: found is the Chester right now has about forty five
Speaker 1: career advisors. Everything. Everyone's like, here's what I do Chester
Speaker 1: from crypto me who's never been able to play an
Speaker 1: instrument or sing I'm like, here's here's the lineup, should
Speaker 1: be Chester. So now we got to figure that out.
Speaker 1: You play, I think his stage name and everything, like
Speaker 1: you know, you get like like it should be like Madonna,
Speaker 1: but it should just be Chester. I thought about it.
Speaker 1: I thought it should be Chester the Molester, but that
Speaker 1: sets like then you're gonna get weird people in the
Speaker 1: cross They're like, where's the part about molesting? I want
Speaker 1: my money bag? And I think it should just be
Speaker 1: that he plays as Chester. That's what I told him
Speaker 1: to put on the poster. I really like your originals. Man,
Speaker 1: how long? How many? How long are you? How many songs?
Speaker 1: How long are you to play? It'll probably be like eight, nine,
Speaker 1: ten songs, which will be like five minutes minutes. Because
Speaker 1: Chess were speeding through this career so fast. It's like
Speaker 1: it's like six months from now, he's gonna be He's
Speaker 1: gonna hotel six months I'll put I'll put I'll put
Speaker 1: the link to tickets up on my Instagram so you
Speaker 1: can go buy some in Atlanta, Georgia And uh yeah,
Speaker 1: what's the date? December one? How many people you playing
Speaker 1: in front of? I think it's like I wonder if
Speaker 1: I can make it down there December one. We gotta
Speaker 1: do a thing. You gotta do a thing exactly you ask.
Speaker 1: We'll go to like gun show the store and be like,
Speaker 1: I need a bunch of rotten tomatoes and ship. Do
Speaker 1: you feel like opening up for the meteor podcasts and billings?
Speaker 1: Is that all you needed to kind of breakthrough? Yes?
Speaker 1: That was way harder I think than this will be,
Speaker 1: because people will be in the crowd actually talking and
Speaker 1: like there to listen to music. The billing show was
Speaker 1: like here Chester go on stage. Everyone will be quiet,
Speaker 1: they'll be confused, will be slightly confused, and there'll be
Speaker 1: a light on you, just shining right on you. And
Speaker 1: then you've got to sing a song. Yeah, and they're like,
Speaker 1: what happened? I had the wrong event? The audience They're like,
Speaker 1: did he forget a verse? Anyways, I'm Tea. I'm super
Speaker 1: proud of you, man, Well, thank you, thank you. I
Speaker 1: don't mean you're I don't mean you're in over your waiters.
Speaker 1: I just mean you're like on a fast track. Dude,
Speaker 1: I'm not in over my waiters because I can. I
Speaker 1: just need to play like I'm sitting on my couch
Speaker 1: maybe with a little more enthusiasm, but you know, just
Speaker 1: play music. That was some of the best advice I
Speaker 1: ever got as a writer. Try to image yourself telling.
Speaker 1: Try to imagine the best version of yourself telling your
Speaker 1: friend in a bar or something, the best explanation you
Speaker 1: ever gave to your friend in a bar about something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's good. Try to like write like that. I can
Speaker 1: do it. How did TBT find you? Um? He real
Speaker 1: He follows me on Instagram and Karen Um they're in
Speaker 1: contact just because he's been on the podcast before and
Speaker 1: she gave him my number and he text me and
Speaker 1: Danielle was sitting right there and I was like, this
Speaker 1: is a weird text. And because I just I just
Speaker 1: to weight it to both of them. Yeah, I read
Speaker 1: it out loud, and as I was reading it, Danielle
Speaker 1: was like in the background, like jumping up and down.
Speaker 1: She's like, you have to do it. Even though it's
Speaker 1: like eight days after we have our firstborn son. Your
Speaker 1: wife's into it. Yeah, she's like, yeah, She's like you
Speaker 1: you don't. People don't really get opportunities like that in
Speaker 1: the spot that you're at. Mm hmm. So you gotta
Speaker 1: do it, Danielle, don't give birth late, you're gonna be
Speaker 1: completely sleep deprived and hallucinating on stage. Man groupies, he'd
Speaker 1: be beating him off with his fish pole. But I
Speaker 1: want to talk about bass fishing with Brandon. Oh that's
Speaker 1: we're getting. We have on the phone now. Chester told
Speaker 1: me last night that, Um, Brandon, Uh, tell everybody where
Speaker 1: you're at what's going on? That the Brandon polluted I
Speaker 1: was best politic. Brandon Polinck, who you should know because
Speaker 1: he's been on the show before. Uh, last night was
Speaker 1: christened crowned Anger of the Year. My on, you're you're right.
Speaker 1: It's a true story Acrosse, Wisconsin, and you explained it perfectly.
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember last time I was in studio,
Speaker 1: we were kind of having to explain the whole tournament
Speaker 1: bass fishing thing to you, and then you just you
Speaker 1: put Chester straight and nailed it. With the end of
Speaker 1: the w n B A comparison. Then you were you
Speaker 1: were dead nuts on with that one. So so tell me, like,
Speaker 1: what what is this the culmination of it? What does
Speaker 1: it mean for your career? Um? Well, this this is
Speaker 1: my second a O I win. So it puts me
Speaker 1: in a very small group of guys that have won
Speaker 1: multiple Uh, I was the twelfth guy to win multiple
Speaker 1: a wise, and I think the twenty seventh guy to
Speaker 1: ever win one. Yeah, and like the fifty plus years
Speaker 1: of bass So they're looking at when they do this,
Speaker 1: they're looking at the culmination of a of a collection
Speaker 1: of tournaments, right, Like, it doesn't mean one particular tournament.
Speaker 1: This means that, like over the entire tour or have
Speaker 1: you guys put it, that you were above and beyond
Speaker 1: had the best angler performance out of all the anglers
Speaker 1: engaged in all the different tournaments. Yeah, exactly. So it's
Speaker 1: a points race. So we have a hundred anglers that
Speaker 1: qualify for the Bass Master Lead Series. All those same
Speaker 1: hundred guys fish throughout the entire year. First place gets
Speaker 1: a hundred points, second gets, third gets and so forth,
Speaker 1: and you know, down the board. And so there's an
Speaker 1: accumulative points race that carries on through the nine events
Speaker 1: of the year. And we just finished well today, the
Speaker 1: top ten is actually still fishing today. I just didn't
Speaker 1: make the top ten, but I had I placed high
Speaker 1: enough yesterday that nobody could pass me in points today.
Speaker 1: How many points you got, Honestly, I don't even know.
Speaker 1: I haven't looked at points in eight years until the
Speaker 1: end of the year, but I haven't even looked at
Speaker 1: the points of this year to know how many points
Speaker 1: I have? Is there a cash prize? Ran Brandon? You
Speaker 1: that's awesome, man. I had been following you all year,
Speaker 1: and you know you're doing really well, and you went
Speaker 1: to Lake Wahi and struggled a little bit. There a
Speaker 1: bond you can You're putting it way too nice. Chester.
Speaker 1: You need to go more Chester molester on this one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I about screwed up my whole entire season. So walk us,
Speaker 1: walk us through like real quick, like what was been
Speaker 1: going into y he? Then a while he and then
Speaker 1: what was in your mind going into lacrosse? Uh? Soon?
Speaker 1: Looking back now and after everyone telling me like how
Speaker 1: the points played out and stuff, Because I hadn't looked
Speaker 1: all season, I didn't know what the points gap was.
Speaker 1: I knew that there were a couple of guys behind
Speaker 1: me that we're in the running. But I was leading
Speaker 1: going into Hawaii, and knowing what I know now, I
Speaker 1: was running away with it at that time. Like if
Speaker 1: I would have just cut a check, it would have
Speaker 1: been nearly impossible for someone to beat me. This week
Speaker 1: whether I kind of bass or not. And I completely
Speaker 1: bombed and finished like sixty six that a wahi, and
Speaker 1: before that, my worst finish of the season had been
Speaker 1: twenty six. And so it went from being almost nearly
Speaker 1: impossible to getting getting beat for a y two, making
Speaker 1: it so that multiple guys had a shot to win it.
Speaker 1: And you know, a lot of that just came from
Speaker 1: poor decision making at a wali, right, like riding off
Speaker 1: sections of the lake and preconceived notions and things like that,
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm crushed the walleye, like walley one. Walleye
Speaker 1: is worth way more than ten large mouth if you're
Speaker 1: talking about eating them, sure, and way better um, And
Speaker 1: that I mean incredible walleye fishery, and it's actually a
Speaker 1: really good small mouth fishery. We just hit it at
Speaker 1: a really weird time and I made poor decisions. And
Speaker 1: then I came into lacrosse this week still not knowing
Speaker 1: the points, but knowing that it was a lot closer
Speaker 1: by the way everyone was acting. It was a lot
Speaker 1: closer than what it needed to be, and was able
Speaker 1: to to pull it out and actually had an incredible
Speaker 1: day yesterday. Um caught the biggest bag that I caught
Speaker 1: all week and I was able to seal the deal.
Speaker 1: Move up and how many how many pounds was yesterday's bag?
Speaker 1: That's five? How many fishes at five fish? Five? Yeah? Five?
Speaker 1: So I had fifteen pounds for five yesterday, which on
Speaker 1: this river right now is pretty dank solid. Like if
Speaker 1: I would have caught fifteen every day, I would have
Speaker 1: nearly been leading the event. Dude, I'm gonna go bass
Speaker 1: fishing with you, so bad man, let's go seeweed taste
Speaker 1: and bastards. I'm ready. Um uh imagine the tax at
Speaker 1: hunter Grand pretty aggressively. I'm guessing they're gonna some chump
Speaker 1: who never paid his student loans and here here, yeah,
Speaker 1: here's the best part. Wisconsin is a state that they
Speaker 1: have to pull the taxes out of your check before
Speaker 1: you even get it. And then so now I'm only
Speaker 1: getting four grand because Wisconsin is gonna take six and
Speaker 1: then I gotta go do all the paperwork to try
Speaker 1: to get some of it back. I don't live you, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes you wish you could just go fishing to have
Speaker 1: to deal with all that money and it. Trust me,
Speaker 1: I know that's why I go walleye fishing. So you're
Speaker 1: so you're not even fishing now, but you're still hanging around.
Speaker 1: Is that? Is that like a polite thing to do
Speaker 1: is hang around. I actually started doing that like two
Speaker 1: years ago, and I'm sticking around watching each guy win
Speaker 1: the event because it to me, it's like a respect
Speaker 1: thing to the other anglers and somewhat, but it's also
Speaker 1: a driving force to me, like personally to see a
Speaker 1: guy win, knowing that like I had equal opportunity to
Speaker 1: go do that and I couldn't pull it off, Like
Speaker 1: I didn't make the right decisions that week, and so
Speaker 1: it's it just motivates me even more for the next week,
Speaker 1: the week after that, Yeah, I got it. And are
Speaker 1: you done for the summer now? Oh? Yeah, it's we're switching.
Speaker 1: I will still fish some in the fall and everything
Speaker 1: that keep my skills in check, but it's full on
Speaker 1: hunting season now. And then when you when you got
Speaker 1: to start back up hardcore fishing again. We'll start tournaments
Speaker 1: again next February. We'll start showing season and all that
Speaker 1: stuff traveling in January, but February. We don't have our
Speaker 1: schedule yet for next year, but it usually it starts
Speaker 1: around February. Uh, can you can you take a listener
Speaker 1: question for us? For sure? Guy rolled in um wondering
Speaker 1: about what happens when you spook a fish. He's talking
Speaker 1: about how long, like if you like spook a deer,
Speaker 1: how long it goes before it kind of goes back
Speaker 1: to normal, right, like how far it was? You know,
Speaker 1: it's highly variable, right, but you're saying, let's fish and
Speaker 1: like really fight it and he comes off not not
Speaker 1: as he stung his lip, but like you had him on.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, when does that fishing? When does that
Speaker 1: fish like back to normal ready to hit again. It's
Speaker 1: all situational, um, and it's different depending on species. So
Speaker 1: like a small mouth bass versus a large mouth will
Speaker 1: be way more aggressive. Like, so your odds of hooking
Speaker 1: and losing a small mouth and catching it again quickly
Speaker 1: is much higher than doing it with a large mouth
Speaker 1: just because they got a bad attitude. So you've you've
Speaker 1: probably hooked small mouth, broke off and like potentially caught
Speaker 1: the small mouth with your with your lure still in
Speaker 1: the mouth, especially if they're spawning. Right if they're spawning,
Speaker 1: like when they seeing or can't see any cast, break
Speaker 1: wing off your cast back in there, swims over, eats it,
Speaker 1: and you get both your hooks back, and that's like
Speaker 1: breaking him off. Yeah, that's like you catch him. He
Speaker 1: still has the lure stuck in his mouth. He cast
Speaker 1: back out there, he swims over, eats the next one
Speaker 1: and get to like I caught I caught a small
Speaker 1: off one time on Lake Oneida. And when I caught
Speaker 1: him brought him in the boat, he regurgitated a bait
Speaker 1: that he had just stole off my the cast before,
Speaker 1: right like it just sucked the worm off the hook,
Speaker 1: and that was a plastic worm, not even real one.
Speaker 1: He spit up another plastic worm, like a little four
Speaker 1: inch black sinco, a shad and a crowdad all at
Speaker 1: the same time, and was still swimming around eating my baits.
Speaker 1: And but there's been times where like you don't hook them,
Speaker 1: and I'll follow him sometimes for a quarter mile, like
Speaker 1: if they get on a sand flat or something, you
Speaker 1: have just follow him and you'll keep casting at I'm
Speaker 1: keep casting out him. They'll spook from the boat a little,
Speaker 1: or they'll spook from your cast and then you'll hit
Speaker 1: it just right, or they get annoyed enough and they'll
Speaker 1: swim over and buy it got it. I know it's
Speaker 1: a hard, hard question to answer because it's like so
Speaker 1: like what everything is so highly variable? Right, Yeah, for sure,
Speaker 1: we'll Congratulations man, thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: gotta come back on the show. Yeah, I would love to.
Speaker 1: We're gonna make it's not too far a drive, so
Speaker 1: we'll make Cret We'll make Creant chase you down and
Speaker 1: get you back up here. It'd be fun. Yeah. They
Speaker 1: still gotta fish your mos pond. We still gotta fish
Speaker 1: my moms like my mom's. Yeah, your breakdowns, Like we
Speaker 1: talked about that a little bit. We'll do it that lake.
Speaker 1: It's not going anywhere. Um, this last summer what turned
Speaker 1: out to not be a good summer for a handful
Speaker 1: of reasons. But uh, but we'll get back on track
Speaker 1: for that. Alright. Congratulations, thanks for jumping on. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: appreciate you. Guys. I'll talk to you seon alright, take
Speaker 1: good luck Alt County. All right, thanks. Oh guy wrote in, uh,
Speaker 1: interesting point. We're talking about leading copper. We're talking about
Speaker 1: when you go to the kind of this ongoing debate
Speaker 1: about you know, lead ammo, copper ammo, all these different
Speaker 1: pros and cons of each. Um uh, we're talking about
Speaker 1: how like, like I we did a tour of the
Speaker 1: Federal plant, Federal Ammunition Plant, and all the lead Federal
Speaker 1: uses is recycled car batteries. It's all recycled lead, okay,
Speaker 1: and someone rolled in and he's like, the problem with
Speaker 1: you people like you is you say, like, oh, copper, copper, copper,
Speaker 1: but then every time they go to put in a
Speaker 1: copper mind you bitch about it. For instance, I've been
Speaker 1: a long you know I've been I've spent well, I've
Speaker 1: went to my first anti pebble mine event before my
Speaker 1: twelve year old was born. So I've been following in
Speaker 1: in and voicing all the reasons they shouldn't do a
Speaker 1: golden copper mine at the headwaters of Bristol Bay for
Speaker 1: thirteen years, fourteen years. But he's like, so, how can
Speaker 1: you reconcile that was saying you'd like to shoot copper ammo,
Speaker 1: or that people should shoot copper ammo. Uh. I felt
Speaker 1: that he a little bit oversimplified what I've said on
Speaker 1: the subject. However, um fella road in to say that
Speaker 1: most at copper and your copper animals recycled. Anyways, thousands
Speaker 1: of tons of copper. This is him talking. Thousands of
Speaker 1: tons of coppered are recycled off job sites every year.
Speaker 1: What most people don't know is it can only be
Speaker 1: refined once to use as a conductor. I did not
Speaker 1: know this copper can be used once as a conductor.
Speaker 1: Once it's melted down again, it's conductive properties are diminished
Speaker 1: and it cannot be used again as wire. So most
Speaker 1: likely the copper that you're using, which doesn't need to
Speaker 1: be conductive copper and copper ammunitions. It would make the
Speaker 1: most sense that they're buying it up cheaper as a
Speaker 1: recycled material, then going out and digging it out of
Speaker 1: a hole in the ground. Thinking about that bill. That
Speaker 1: probably tickles your fancy as an engineer. You buying it? Um,
Speaker 1: I did not know that about conduction of copper after
Speaker 1: reuse recycled, But that sounds good more. You're more of
Speaker 1: a broadhead man, you're not a bullet man. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: meant to steal more than copper. Yeah, for sure. Uh
Speaker 1: that was interesting. Oh here's one. This is a weird one.
Speaker 1: This dude from Michigan rights in is his girlfriends and
Speaker 1: taking her hunter safety and they're actually advising you. They're
Speaker 1: advising you and hunter safety. Quote when transporting game, be
Speaker 1: sure to keep it covered to avoid offending others. That's
Speaker 1: not like a hunter's safety. That's a that's a sticky one.
Speaker 1: Isn't that illegal? Some places to hide it? Well, don't
Speaker 1: you have to have exposed? I don't know, but I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say no. I think when I was a kid
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin that you had to have your deer where
Speaker 1: you could see it, like what I think, so people
Speaker 1: had them tied onto their cars and visible in there.
Speaker 1: They wanted to know that you had it. You couldn't.
Speaker 1: I think once you got it registered, you had to
Speaker 1: drive the talent register it. And I think that was
Speaker 1: the rule that you had to have it like displayed
Speaker 1: or visible until he was a registered that's you know,
Speaker 1: I was. I don't know if I knew the law
Speaker 1: is exactly back then, but that's that And maybe people
Speaker 1: were just showing off their bucks. I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: it was like a big thing in the old days,
Speaker 1: like whenever he was driving around and like old cars
Speaker 1: they have like strung up on there. But where it
Speaker 1: gets like you know, is it um how to what degree?
Speaker 1: Like if you get a deer. Let's just purely personal
Speaker 1: decision making here. Let's say there's no legal okay, there's
Speaker 1: no legal structure behind if you get a deer, should
Speaker 1: you have the attitude that you've done something bad and
Speaker 1: should hide it lest someone be offended? Or is it
Speaker 1: that you've done something that you're happy about and glad
Speaker 1: about and don't mind displaying it. I see, I see
Speaker 1: both sides of it. I've argued both sides of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in Wisconsin, it's like a huge thing. If you shoot
Speaker 1: a nice dear, it's rare you find that dude hiding
Speaker 1: that buck, like tailgates down and he stops at like
Speaker 1: all the deer registration stations and a few bars, and
Speaker 1: he's like, look at my buck. You know. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't uh like I have a top around my truck,
Speaker 1: and I would never like do, but not for not
Speaker 1: for fear of offending people, just more of like, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, just this is where I would put it,
Speaker 1: I guess. So it's not like a decision for me. Well,
Speaker 1: this fall, you're gonna shoot such a big bull, he's
Speaker 1: not gonna fit in that bed of yours. You're gonna
Speaker 1: have to attach him to the canoe racks. Good, I
Speaker 1: got aloft the top of though ain't gonna fit. Here's
Speaker 1: another one. This guy's one or no that The topic
Speaker 1: is am I the ask? This is a this is
Speaker 1: a this is a sticky one. So noo. A guy
Speaker 1: from Michigan. How do people from Michigan right now? A
Speaker 1: lot of problems in Michigan. He's from Michigan, and he's
Speaker 1: been doing some scouting just right now. Okay, He's been
Speaker 1: cruising the road surrounding the properties where he has permission
Speaker 1: to hunt. So he's got permission to hunt certain properties
Speaker 1: in his area. He's cruising around in the evening, glassing
Speaker 1: out in crop fields. One such property is about three
Speaker 1: acres of mixed egg and small woodlots. The way the
Speaker 1: crops lay out this year. The neighbor's property have some
Speaker 1: soybeans that the bachelor groups of bucks have been hitting hard.
Speaker 1: Two nights this week, I partner my truck on private
Speaker 1: property I have permission on and have been glassing the
Speaker 1: deer in a neighbor's soybeans each night. I'm still quoting here.
Speaker 1: Each night the neighbor confronted me and asked me about
Speaker 1: what I was doing. The first night was more cordial,
Speaker 1: and he just inquired about who I was and what
Speaker 1: I was up to. The second evening he was straight
Speaker 1: up confrontational and threatened me with calling the d n
Speaker 1: R and complaining about hunter harassment. M he's kind of
Speaker 1: turning the hunter harassment on the hunter on the bow hunter.
Speaker 1: It's like he's confused, he needs to look up harrassment.
Speaker 1: So no, I think that his angle is that this
Speaker 1: dude is somehow trying to disrupt his upcoming hunt. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'll continue. He says, my long distant glassing is going
Speaker 1: to pressure the deer and ruin his hunting this fall.
Speaker 1: He also went into and here's some value judgment, because
Speaker 1: he says, he went into an egotistical rant about how
Speaker 1: he and his bodies only shoot one bucks and how
Speaker 1: the guys who hunt my pro he should be doing
Speaker 1: the same. So again he points out, I'm set up
Speaker 1: on a private property where a farm lane intersects the
Speaker 1: dirt road. I'm sitting on the tailgate in my truck,
Speaker 1: and I'm glassing across a roadway into a bean field
Speaker 1: where the deer are five hundred two thousand yards away.
Speaker 1: No houses, no other dwellings or structures are visible from
Speaker 1: my spot due to topography and vegetation. Therefore, it shouldn't
Speaker 1: be misconstrued that I'm stalking or looking at people's houses.
Speaker 1: The dirt road is relatively busy, many people drive it
Speaker 1: with cars side by sides and dirt bikes, so he's
Speaker 1: not adding to the activity. M hm, Okay, if you
Speaker 1: are absolutely one dead nuts positive sure that you're not
Speaker 1: sort of like kind of like glancing over at the
Speaker 1: guy's house with with binoculars. I just can't see what
Speaker 1: the issue is. I don't think there is one man.
Speaker 1: I think this is just like classic sort of white
Speaker 1: tail hunter paranoia. What what it really seems to me
Speaker 1: this is Hayden samic ladies and gentle. It really seems
Speaker 1: to me that this guy's main problem is that he
Speaker 1: doesn't have like a hedgerow or something right off the road.
Speaker 1: A lot of times, like white Dale hunters with these
Speaker 1: highly managed properties, they're like, I forget what the grass
Speaker 1: is called. But yeah, like Mark, I think Mark Kenyon
Speaker 1: did it with the back forty. Is he planned that
Speaker 1: he tried or he tried to plant like a screen
Speaker 1: that kind of intersected or blocked the view from the
Speaker 1: road specifically for this purpose. I would also say that
Speaker 1: if this guy came out here, had the conversation with
Speaker 1: this dude and those deer, we're still standing in the
Speaker 1: middle of the field. It's probably not an issue, you know.
Speaker 1: It just it seems like this dude is just weirdly
Speaker 1: protective about his deer. But Northeast Deer Hunting King's deer
Speaker 1: issue is what it is. Yeah, it sounds like the
Speaker 1: guy who was upset also could have handled that confrontation
Speaker 1: a little better if he was actually that worried, rather
Speaker 1: than just straight up calling the d n R. And
Speaker 1: which is kind of ridiculous in my opinion. It's just
Speaker 1: I don't know. You can imagine if the cop did
Speaker 1: come and they both guys laid out their argument, the
Speaker 1: cop would probably feel like the guy that owns the
Speaker 1: field is insane. Yeah, right, he's like homent um. What
Speaker 1: you're upset about. You're mad that he's on his property
Speaker 1: looking over into your property looking at deer. This is
Speaker 1: gonna be very hard to enforce. Look for all the
Speaker 1: motors coming down this road that they don't look, they
Speaker 1: don't look over that a way. Yeah, and our listener
Speaker 1: Brian is being so thoughtful to even you know self
Speaker 1: reflecting right in and ask what what some of you
Speaker 1: might think. So it sounds to me, Brian, that you're
Speaker 1: not an ass. But here's the thing to keep mind.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing to keep in mind too. This is
Speaker 1: my Like you can't take marriage, for instance, there are
Speaker 1: things that your anniversary today, oh for you gradulation, take
Speaker 1: marriage for instance. It might be that there's something that
Speaker 1: drives your spouse nuts and you're like, I still see,
Speaker 1: like why do you care? Right? But then just you
Speaker 1: just stop doing it because right you stop doing it,
Speaker 1: like you don't see what the issue is, but you
Speaker 1: just stop doing it because it annoys them. So it
Speaker 1: could be that in the spirit of just trying to
Speaker 1: keep things, Cord will not keep things heated. The he
Speaker 1: just dips into the woods and then sits against a
Speaker 1: tree and looks over into the soybean field or whatever. Right, Like, like,
Speaker 1: maybe the guys irrational, but do you want to have
Speaker 1: is that the relationship you want to have with everybody?
Speaker 1: Like he's un irrational, Perhaps you're not gonna fix it,
Speaker 1: but do you want to like poke the bear all
Speaker 1: the time? Yeah, And Brian's is obviously. You know these
Speaker 1: bucks come once they start getting frisky and running around
Speaker 1: thousand yards away. He's just getting a feel for what
Speaker 1: kind of deer are in the area. You know, they
Speaker 1: could easily beyond his property come runt time. So, Kendra,
Speaker 1: you know we're talking about I was talking about a
Speaker 1: friend of mine on a recent episode. Uh, I should say,
Speaker 1: a friend of an acquaintance of mine that got hit
Speaker 1: by a rattlesnake and they took him to his local
Speaker 1: hospital and they didn't have the anti venom, so he
Speaker 1: had to get in a helicopter and go to a
Speaker 1: hospital that had the anti venom, and they charged him
Speaker 1: nine thousand bucks for the helicopter ride. Well, listen to this.
Speaker 1: Steve Kendraw, who's been on the show. He's on a
Speaker 1: bird hunting some bird hunting for him, and the guy,
Speaker 1: a guy on a bird hunting for him, had this
Speaker 1: to say. My mother was bitten by a copper head
Speaker 1: in June. She received the hospital bill in today's mail
Speaker 1: and the anti venom cost one hundred and nineteen thousand
Speaker 1: dollars and nine one hundred nineteen thousand, nine hundred nine
Speaker 1: seven dollars. Oh my gosh, she was bitten in the hand,
Speaker 1: and she told me I sucked the venom out and
Speaker 1: spit it out, then drove herself to the hospital and
Speaker 1: to back himself up. He the receipt is in here,
Speaker 1: like Kendrot sent me the receipt. It's like YadA YadA YadA. Um.
Speaker 1: Room and board at the hospital fifty dollars, the lab
Speaker 1: costs six thirteen, has some kind of diagnostics something or
Speaker 1: another three fifty six bucks. Her emergency room visit three
Speaker 1: thousand one bucks. The pharmacy bill for the anti venom
Speaker 1: one nine. Did insurance cover it? He says, she's got
Speaker 1: good insurance. I'll point out that the Stafford host Bittle
Speaker 1: has a two point seven uh star rating on Google Reviews. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't think people like like, yeah, I guess now,
Speaker 1: and then you leave a hospital like loving the place. Well,
Speaker 1: the other Stafford hospital I can find is actually in England,
Speaker 1: and the Wikipedia page is called the Stafford Hospital scandal. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if that's this not high marks, but this just happening yesterday,
Speaker 1: But no, this is this is here in the good
Speaker 1: old America. And then they got copper heads in England.
Speaker 1: So my dog has been bit by rattlesnake three times now,
Speaker 1: same dog, and it costs like to get the anti
Speaker 1: venom at the vet, so she should have went to
Speaker 1: the vet. Well, but that's the copper head venom might
Speaker 1: be totally different. That's an unlucky dog. You think it'd
Speaker 1: be snake team by now. Yeah, she was bit when
Speaker 1: she was four months old. I didn't think she's gonna
Speaker 1: make at that time, but she did. She went on
Speaker 1: to be a great hunting dog, and then twice last summer,
Speaker 1: but the second time she didn't. She didn't react to it,
Speaker 1: so they thought maybe she's kind of immune to it.
Speaker 1: At this point, where is this happening Not in eastern
Speaker 1: Colorado on Nebraska Colorado border area. Another guy wrote in
Speaker 1: remember how we covered that guy that fell in the
Speaker 1: vault on the house and spent all those hours his
Speaker 1: phone he was he was, I don't know what he's doing.
Speaker 1: Presumably he was defecating and his phone fell into an
Speaker 1: house vault at a fishing access site in Montana. And
Speaker 1: you were insistent he would be a tremendous guest on
Speaker 1: the podcast. So I wanted to get him a show
Speaker 1: to interview him. And I said, like, I just asked him,
Speaker 1: what are you thinking when you stuck down in at
Speaker 1: our house vault? And a guy wrote me inside, I
Speaker 1: can tell you what he wasn't thinking. Where's the guys
Speaker 1: supposed to take a piss around here? But doom boom,
Speaker 1: but don't bump all right? Bill Born and raising Wisconi.
Speaker 1: Where at central it says, Montella, Wisconsin, kind of central
Speaker 1: part of the state, about hour north of Madison. Grew
Speaker 1: up bow hunting? I did, yep. My father grandfather were
Speaker 1: bow hunters. So um, I grew up bow hunting and
Speaker 1: rifle hunting. You can you can do both there. You
Speaker 1: don't have to just choose one or the other like
Speaker 1: you do in Minnesota or some other states. How old
Speaker 1: are you? So set the scene for me. What was
Speaker 1: going on like when you were twelve or whatever? Well?
Speaker 1: Where was the archery equipment? I started with a recurve um.
Speaker 1: You know you were hearing whispers of the compound both
Speaker 1: I saw compounds. I uh. It took me two years
Speaker 1: to save up the money to buy one and start
Speaker 1: start killing deer. But I started with a recurve um.
Speaker 1: That's what my my dad grandfather had used. This was
Speaker 1: Ben Pearson. It was it was, oh, that was all
Speaker 1: My first bows were Ben Pierson bows. Hold on fiber
Speaker 1: shafts or you mean to say limbs, no on his
Speaker 1: arrows aluminum or it was like, no, it's like the
Speaker 1: big thing they have fiberglass arrows, wasn't it. I had
Speaker 1: some kind of composite arrows, but mainly I shot aluminum arrows.
Speaker 1: Wasn't there for a time people I know, like car
Speaker 1: barrels and ship It wasn't like in the early days
Speaker 1: people were messing with fiberglass. Yeah, because remember people getting
Speaker 1: those fiberglass they'd go to pull them fiberglass ship in
Speaker 1: her hands all the time. It looks like you can
Speaker 1: still buy them from three rivers. So anyways, aluminium anyway,
Speaker 1: iluminum and what what were you guys? Broadheads back then thunderheads,
Speaker 1: raise your back fives all that stuff, man, and then
Speaker 1: some Muzzy's price soon after that. Um, a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of three blade shows point type heads. Um,
Speaker 1: but not like so you're not like, uh like those
Speaker 1: old delta like the steel ones and stuff with I
Speaker 1: think I had some of those from my from my
Speaker 1: dad grandfather, some of the razor heads and things. Um.
Speaker 1: And that's probably is what I started with. But when
Speaker 1: I started, yeah, I think I was twelve when I started.
Speaker 1: I think I was four team when I bought my
Speaker 1: first compound and then started shooting probably thunderheads at that
Speaker 1: point something like that. Were you when you were doing
Speaker 1: that as a kid? Were you, um? Were you like
Speaker 1: mechanically minded at the time? Were you just use what
Speaker 1: people told you to use? Were did you? Were you
Speaker 1: early on thinking like, man, this would be a lot
Speaker 1: better if it was blank. Actually I was just using
Speaker 1: what people told me to use for quite a few years.
Speaker 1: Even even as I became a mechanical engineer, I wasn't
Speaker 1: really applying it to broadheads and our treat that much.
Speaker 1: I mean, I understood the fundamentals, but I wasn't really
Speaker 1: serious about applying it to bow hunting, you know, until
Speaker 1: actually until I had a broadhead fail on an elk
Speaker 1: shoulder blade many years later, that I really decided, Hey,
Speaker 1: I need to apply to my background and science mechanical
Speaker 1: engineering to develop a product that's going to perform better here.
Speaker 1: What was what were you interested in a mechanical engineering like,
Speaker 1: why did you become an engineer? Yeah? I was, you know, physics,
Speaker 1: mathematics were just kind of cam natural to me, and
Speaker 1: I was I was interested in mechanical designing mechanical design
Speaker 1: and applying applying science to solve problems make better products. Um,
Speaker 1: I mean I enjoyed archery and with the compound because
Speaker 1: there was a lot of you know, mechanical engineering going
Speaker 1: on there. I just wasn't I don't feel like I
Speaker 1: was applying it to errow errow flight broadheads and things
Speaker 1: like that to the degree I I am now certainly
Speaker 1: how long you've been at it now, um, about sixteen
Speaker 1: years now, really engineering broadheads. Yeah, I'm gonna turn it
Speaker 1: over to honest for a minute. All right, you're honest.
Speaker 1: Explained to me. Explain to me what is like like
Speaker 1: based on your understanding as a guy that likes to
Speaker 1: read abo stuff like this, what is the arrow? What
Speaker 1: is the arrow? The current like arrow broadhead controversy. I
Speaker 1: don't know if there's a answer, no, because there's so
Speaker 1: many schools of a little nuance schools of thought. In
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, it's been trending more foc
Speaker 1: forward of center, like yeah, there's that, there's the idea
Speaker 1: that heavier arrows are sort of gaining a little bit
Speaker 1: of momentum, I said, I say that, but I also
Speaker 1: wonder if it's not just because of our little circle.
Speaker 1: Like I wonder if you go to actually I don't
Speaker 1: go to a t A. But if I wonder if
Speaker 1: you went to a t A. Do you go to
Speaker 1: a t A? Is it like a talk? Is it
Speaker 1: a thing there? Like? Is also is there like a
Speaker 1: general surge in the definitely speed controversy and O and
Speaker 1: it it continues. I think it's just bad right now
Speaker 1: as it's ever been speed, But it wasn't around and
Speaker 1: like the probably like in oh five when the first
Speaker 1: super fast carbon you know shafts came along and everybody
Speaker 1: was shooting like eighty five grain heads and everybody showed
Speaker 1: up in camp. Where I come from. My perspective is
Speaker 1: that I started guiding el cuents in the year two
Speaker 1: thousand and everybody, for whatever reason, it was like the
Speaker 1: very tail end of still had aluminum shafts and like
Speaker 1: muzzies like what everybody rolled into camp with, and everybody
Speaker 1: just passed shot right through elk. We had like very
Speaker 1: good success with you know shots taken to you know,
Speaker 1: animals found. And then five years later guy would show
Speaker 1: up with rigs where like they'd shoot the target at
Speaker 1: forty yards and you didn't even see the arrow. It
Speaker 1: would just be like stuck in the target all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, and you know, seriously, it's like one of
Speaker 1: those where the guys like throwing the knives and the
Speaker 1: knife just comes out of the board. M And then
Speaker 1: we started seeing you know, very poor penetration. Um. It
Speaker 1: took us a long time and probably well after I
Speaker 1: probably left you know, guiding l cons to realize, you know,
Speaker 1: that that was the root cause of it, that the
Speaker 1: whole system had gotten too light because they liked like
Speaker 1: people liked it because it was fun as ship to
Speaker 1: shoot it. Yeah, and I think it was flat. It
Speaker 1: was like flat, it was fun to shoot at targets,
Speaker 1: flat shooting fast ass arrows. And I think at the time, yeah,
Speaker 1: the the it was it's sold. Probably was the number
Speaker 1: one thing was that it was like new. They came
Speaker 1: up with this the capability to make arrows go really fast,
Speaker 1: and it was like the hot new thing. But I
Speaker 1: don't it hadn't been like tested and it probably worked
Speaker 1: fine on you know white tails and stuff, but it
Speaker 1: just hadn't been proven yet. And it took five or
Speaker 1: ten years. So I guess my question is do you
Speaker 1: feel like back then was there a controversy or people
Speaker 1: talking like was there always like a whole backgrowd that
Speaker 1: was like none, No, no, you guys are I'm telling
Speaker 1: you that light fast stuff is not gonna work. You
Speaker 1: guys should be sticking with heavier arrows. I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't think there was so much. You know, I moved
Speaker 1: to Colorado from Wisconsin started elk hunting um two thousand
Speaker 1: four is when? So we started elk cutting bout the
Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, it's two thousand before I got a
Speaker 1: shot on a on a nice ball. How are you
Speaker 1: doing for the five years before you got a shot
Speaker 1: trying to figure out elk cunting what I was doing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: come on, you don't have a similar story. I know
Speaker 1: you did. I started winging the arrows that coles right
Speaker 1: off the bat. I was losing more than more than
Speaker 1: one or two as well. But yeah, we can get
Speaker 1: into that. I was a successful white tail hunter, and
Speaker 1: everything I knew about white tails was I was steering
Speaker 1: me in the wrong direction for elk and I didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of you know, mentorship. I just went
Speaker 1: out and tried to figure it out. But UM, so
Speaker 1: I got this shot on a on an elk, hit
Speaker 1: a little forward, hit the shoulder blade really really pretty
Speaker 1: thin part of the scapula with a three blade UM
Speaker 1: you know, cheap chisel point head and did not get
Speaker 1: penetration there. And and I was I had a light
Speaker 1: fast set up at the time, you know, probably a
Speaker 1: little over finder grains UM with a bow I had.
Speaker 1: It wasn't There was not a lot of energy there.
Speaker 1: And that's really what set me off on Okay, and
Speaker 1: I spent five days looking for that out in the
Speaker 1: mountains and um didn't find it. But I got a
Speaker 1: lot of time to think he had been pretty he'd
Speaker 1: been puffed up pretty good. But yeah, I think it
Speaker 1: probably pulled out and live. But yeah, it really bothered
Speaker 1: me that I had become a very you know, high
Speaker 1: level engineer developing products using all the latest and greatest
Speaker 1: tools UM to do world class you know engineering solved
Speaker 1: mechanical problems product development. Really it was kind of the
Speaker 1: go to guy at the companies I worked for to
Speaker 1: solve the hardest problems. And I wasn't applying it to
Speaker 1: something that was super important to me, which is bow
Speaker 1: hunting success. Um. And right there I kind of was committed,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna research this, see what's been done,
Speaker 1: apply engineering. I know something can get through the shoulder
Speaker 1: blade and get through that elk. I just need there
Speaker 1: needs to be some engineering here. Um. But not at
Speaker 1: the time, everything was moving light and fast. I was too,
Speaker 1: and I didn't really hear about anybody saying anything different. Um.
Speaker 1: It was really after I had that failure I started
Speaker 1: digging into the research. I found the Ashbury reports back
Speaker 1: then and read them. You know, went went heavy the
Speaker 1: next year, six hundred plus green arrow in a big
Speaker 1: long broad head. Um. But then I realized that, hey,
Speaker 1: this doesn't fly verygain the trajectory. This thing nos dies
Speaker 1: about forty yards. And at the same time I realized
Speaker 1: that hunting out west for elk and mule deer, man
Speaker 1: I was passing up a lot of elk and mule
Speaker 1: deer at fifty fifty five yards because it was outside
Speaker 1: of my range at that time. So I also felt
Speaker 1: like a matter if I could extend my range, I
Speaker 1: could be a much more effective hunter and make more
Speaker 1: you know, make something out of more opportunities here. So um, anyway,
Speaker 1: that that made me just dig into the science behind
Speaker 1: it and and look at masters to speed and broadhead
Speaker 1: design and all that. Real quick, uh, explain to people
Speaker 1: what a chisel head is. That's why to make sure
Speaker 1: people who aren't totally checked out on the terminology and
Speaker 1: know what you're saying. Yeah, So the the point of
Speaker 1: an arrowhead, you can have a cone point, which kind
Speaker 1: of vision what that is, or a chisel point would
Speaker 1: be if you had like three flats making the point,
Speaker 1: I call that a chisel point. There's versions of that
Speaker 1: that might be dished out and those are called choker points.
Speaker 1: But it's basically um, the front of the ferrell um
Speaker 1: makes a point. It's not really a blade, it's not
Speaker 1: really not gonna shave with it, but it comes to
Speaker 1: a point. And then those typically have some replacement blades
Speaker 1: that are inserted behind it, like the old muzzy thunderhead.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of them that were like that. So
Speaker 1: those three flat surfaces that come to a point, or
Speaker 1: like you said, you'll see on some brands where it's
Speaker 1: dished out a little bit kind of give it more
Speaker 1: of a sharp edge of the chisel point. Right, Those
Speaker 1: cut better than a calm point. For instance, they'll take
Speaker 1: less force to to push through to hide muscles, but
Speaker 1: they're not considered a cut on contact. They're really not in. Really,
Speaker 1: that's the biggest revelation I had in ten years of
Speaker 1: broadhead development is how important sharpness and retension are UM
Speaker 1: and being able to cut. You know, you could take
Speaker 1: you can take a lot of broadheads, put them on
Speaker 1: an arrow, and let's say you got a downed animal.
Speaker 1: You're just gonna try to push in and say the
Speaker 1: hide and muscle, and you can't. You can't do it. Um,
Speaker 1: there's just a points a lot of times not very sharp,
Speaker 1: and it takes a lot of force to push them
Speaker 1: through the hide. Um. Even some three blade kind of
Speaker 1: one piece broadheads. Um, often those aren't that sharp. And
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that either. A lot of broadheads aren't
Speaker 1: really that sharp out of the box. I a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't realize that. A lot of people. No,
Speaker 1: I didn't. I thought, well, it's a broadhead that's got
Speaker 1: blade on it. Of course it's going to be sharp.
Speaker 1: But sure it comes with a warning that says, watch out,
Speaker 1: you're gonna cut cut the hell out of your fingers.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it could, it can be harper I've found out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's one of the things UM I was doing is
Speaker 1: measuring the forced push these different broadheads down through hide
Speaker 1: muscle or hide muscle scapula using an insta machine, which
Speaker 1: is you know, I can control a velocity and very
Speaker 1: accurately as a load cell, I can accurately measure the
Speaker 1: force to penetrate. And there's a one to one there.
Speaker 1: If it's if you cut the force and half to penetrate,
Speaker 1: you're gonna go twice as far you know through Back
Speaker 1: backed that up against it again, Yeah, I wish you
Speaker 1: back all the way back up to the machine. Well,
Speaker 1: I was gonna tell them about our our meat tenderness
Speaker 1: testing machine, but I'll save them. It's probably not too
Speaker 1: That's what the first thing I thought. Yeah, so backing
Speaker 1: up to the machine again. Yes, So this machine, it
Speaker 1: has UM basically servo motors driving down ahead and there's
Speaker 1: a load cell in it so it's accurately measuring force.
Speaker 1: And then I can mount I can mount different broadheads
Speaker 1: in there, and I'll have you know, a tray underneath
Speaker 1: it with I've done it with UM, you know, a
Speaker 1: hind quarter with hide on it, for instance, to look
Speaker 1: at the force to push down through hide and muscle.
Speaker 1: Can you just stick a road kill deer on there
Speaker 1: and you can? Basically, yeah, I was light. I've used
Speaker 1: odd Dad before, which is it's kind of similar in size,
Speaker 1: maybe a little thicker bone. Um. I've used moose moose
Speaker 1: hide and moose moose parts as well. But you probably
Speaker 1: gotta be careful because at some point if you just
Speaker 1: like mess up this meat too much, you're gonna get
Speaker 1: a call from the Game of Fish right for want
Speaker 1: and waste. So, like, what's the recipe after you punch
Speaker 1: these arrows through a thousand Yeah, keep it cold and
Speaker 1: then make it into burger when you're done. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess burger is the answer. Um, but yeah we can.
Speaker 1: But so, just so I'm clear, it's not like somehow
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm just not understanding force clear enough. But
Speaker 1: when it's pushing through, you can equate that too. How
Speaker 1: fast that arrow had have been going when it hit.
Speaker 1: It's not just like a pressure pushing at the time.
Speaker 1: It's that can be equated to how fast that air
Speaker 1: is moving when it hit. I'm measuring the force it
Speaker 1: takes to go through and it is this a good
Speaker 1: time to get into the Yeah, it's probably a good
Speaker 1: I can see though, I can see that whatever you're
Speaker 1: talking about with whenever you're gonna go down the road
Speaker 1: later in factor in speed and all that ship that
Speaker 1: a reasonable thing to look at would be what does
Speaker 1: it actually take to shove it through there? Like that
Speaker 1: seems like a great first question to ask. Well, I
Speaker 1: think it's what everybody was missing, and I think they're
Speaker 1: still missing it today a lot. There's this mass versus speed,
Speaker 1: but that's only that's part of the equation. The other
Speaker 1: one or if we if we think about it an
Speaker 1: energy and um, yeah, let me draw this, but the
Speaker 1: force is key here. Force. Um. If you can reduce
Speaker 1: the force, you increase the distance. It's kind of one
Speaker 1: to one um. And I think everybody was missing that.
Speaker 1: But he's really looking at when you're saying. When you
Speaker 1: say that, you're talking about reducing the force to penetrate,
Speaker 1: your increasing the distance that you will get after the penetration. Um,
Speaker 1: during the penetration, during penetration, right the initial penetration. I
Speaker 1: guess like, let's say I had the sharpest needle on
Speaker 1: the planet, Okay, and I flick it at you perfect
Speaker 1: like a sharp dart and then I have a real
Speaker 1: dold dart and I flick it at you the same
Speaker 1: which you're gonna would you rather be hit you with? Yeah, obviously,
Speaker 1: because it's gonna go in really easy. Yeah. Or I
Speaker 1: think about cutting a roast. If you've got a really
Speaker 1: sharp knife, minimal force to cut down through that, right,
Speaker 1: take a butter knife. It's going to take a tremendous
Speaker 1: monet force. But I don't think a lot of people
Speaker 1: think about that. You know, for whatever energy you have,
Speaker 1: it's going to create some force over distance, and reducing
Speaker 1: that force to penetrate will give you the max distance
Speaker 1: with whatever your set up is, light or heavy air
Speaker 1: or whatever your boy is. And I think I think
Speaker 1: that's missed a lot, and it's a huge factor when
Speaker 1: you're getting there to everything around uh, broadheads, arrow setups,
Speaker 1: both setups. You're looking at a number of things you
Speaker 1: brought up a bunch of times, like there's physics, right,
Speaker 1: and we've addressed it. Where we had on that we
Speaker 1: had on a guest I don't know, some some months
Speaker 1: ago in an episode called The Archer's Paradox, where we
Speaker 1: had an ophthalmologist who spent many, many years how many
Speaker 1: years at Ashby seven years studying arrow broadhead like bow
Speaker 1: arrow broadhead performance. Okay, and he has these sort of
Speaker 1: like rules and they seem to be right, Like I
Speaker 1: would look at me like, oh, this is a very
Speaker 1: scientific approach, Like it's not anecdotal, it's not well, here's
Speaker 1: what my buddy said. He's like trying to apply numbers
Speaker 1: to it. Okay, Um, how is there how is the
Speaker 1: room for multiple interpretations if that's the case. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a lot there. So you know, dr at Ashby, I, um,
Speaker 1: I know, I've talked to him several times. He there's
Speaker 1: a few things there. Um. And and really the reason
Speaker 1: I'm here is too explain some of the some of
Speaker 1: his points that don't quite agree with with physics and
Speaker 1: laws of science. This is how you and I became acquaintances.
Speaker 1: It is is you've sent me a follow up note
Speaker 1: about some things that want ought to consider right from
Speaker 1: an engineering standpoint. Yeah, and I thought to come onto
Speaker 1: the show and explain this. Yeah. And I've talked to
Speaker 1: dr Ashby and and really we agree about we agree
Speaker 1: on a lot of things. But um, there's a few
Speaker 1: things that he says that you know, when and really
Speaker 1: his his studies were the first thing I found in
Speaker 1: two thousand four, after I had that broadhead fail and
Speaker 1: elk shoulder blade, I was really trying to dig into
Speaker 1: the research. So, um, you know, I've got a lot
Speaker 1: of respect for the guy in the time he put in,
Speaker 1: but a lot of his his studies were um with
Speaker 1: a longbow on cape buffalo or Asian buffalo. And and
Speaker 1: he's a he's an eye doctor, but he's not an
Speaker 1: engineer or a scientist in the way his and really
Speaker 1: there's there's a way you design experiments, you know, it's
Speaker 1: design of experiments and structuring them in such a way
Speaker 1: that you make sure the results you get out of
Speaker 1: them are are valid. Um. And so as you said, uh,
Speaker 1: I felt it would probably scientific research too. But as
Speaker 1: I dig more and more into it, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of you know, I tried this and then I
Speaker 1: tried this other thing, and there's in the way it's structured,
Speaker 1: there's not Um, it's difficult, you know, when a number
Speaker 1: of things change at once, it's difficult to quantify and
Speaker 1: put numbers to things. So I think there's some issues
Speaker 1: like that, and there's some also some issues with some
Speaker 1: things that just go against you know, the laws of physics.
Speaker 1: That's that's tough. It is. You know, as a as
Speaker 1: an engineer basically and mechanical engineering is you know, I've
Speaker 1: learned the science, the physics and material science and then
Speaker 1: I apply the laws of physics to you know, solve problems,
Speaker 1: designed better products. So if if somebody is saying something
Speaker 1: that's going against the laws of physics, there's something wrong there. Um,
Speaker 1: there's something he didn't quite understand with the testing. Explain
Speaker 1: how like some of the formulas that go into what
Speaker 1: happens when you shoot your bow at something. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: let's talk about conservation of energy first. So your bow
Speaker 1: has some draw force curve. Um, So as you drop back,
Speaker 1: there's a you know, there's a force at each distance back,
Speaker 1: and then as you let go of it, that string
Speaker 1: applies that force to the arrow and you have a
Speaker 1: certain amount of energy and that's that's that force times
Speaker 1: distance or that area under that draw force curve, and
Speaker 1: that's gonna be constant for the bow. So I mean
Speaker 1: I want to ask a question about that. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: get the thing where let's say your bow you pull
Speaker 1: back and your your bow max is at eighty pounds. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: why does it matter how long you apply that force
Speaker 1: to the arrow? Meaning if it does it for twelve
Speaker 1: inches or does it for five yards? So it does
Speaker 1: it for twelve inches or does it for in or whatever?
Speaker 1: At a point, like, why does it matter anymore? It's
Speaker 1: moving it at that speed. Um, well, it gets to
Speaker 1: be a higher speed if it's applied longer. You know
Speaker 1: that is that infinite? Yeah? You know? So that's Newton's
Speaker 1: second law motion is force equals mass times acceleration. So
Speaker 1: as long as you're applying force here, increasing that acceleration,
Speaker 1: and it's going to keep going faster. But here's the thing, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's say I'm moving my phone across I'm moving my
Speaker 1: phone across the table, and I'm pushing it at X speed.
Speaker 1: So I'm using my arm to push my phone. Now,
Speaker 1: if I pushed my phone for an inch at a
Speaker 1: certain speed, right, it's gonna do whatever it does. It
Speaker 1: will slide away from my finger when I stop. If
Speaker 1: I pushed my phone at that speed for twelve inches
Speaker 1: and then stop, it's not like the phone skiters across
Speaker 1: the table a lot further. No, but you did more work.
Speaker 1: You didn't put more energy. Yeah, but the phone didn't
Speaker 1: didn't harness that energy. Well, that d when you let
Speaker 1: go of it, the fourth stops and the drag drag
Speaker 1: brings it to a stop. Understand what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't know why you don't understand why it's
Speaker 1: like not working. Let me put it this way. Let's
Speaker 1: say you're driving down the road. Okay, alright, you're driving
Speaker 1: down round your car and you're going thirty miles an
Speaker 1: If you go, if you drive your car for thirty
Speaker 1: miles an hour, for a mile, and then take your
Speaker 1: foot off, uh, the accelerator, you're gonna coast whatever distance.
Speaker 1: If you drive your car for one miles at thirty
Speaker 1: miles an hour and take your foot off the accelerator,
Speaker 1: it's not just gonna go farther. It's gonna colost the
Speaker 1: same distance. Your car doesn't give a ship how long
Speaker 1: it was pushed at some speed. Yeah. So the difference
Speaker 1: there is that once it's up, what's you're maintaining a velocity?
Speaker 1: If there's no acceleration, there's a force balance there. Um,
Speaker 1: So fource equals mass times acceleration. So it's just the
Speaker 1: acceleration so example, I would be saying, it's more like
Speaker 1: you kept your accelerator to the floor for longer, and
Speaker 1: now you're going faster, you know at the end. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I got So maybe I'm with you. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: So maybe when you were asking if it's infinite, maybe
Speaker 1: it's only it's not infinite because it can only once
Speaker 1: it achieves maximum acceleration. That's when it ends. Right. So
Speaker 1: that bow that we're drawing back at some point there's
Speaker 1: a max there's an end to how much it can
Speaker 1: accelerate the air. So in the case of your bow
Speaker 1: having a thirty instr length in stet of twenty, you're
Speaker 1: getting that force applied longer, and you're gonna get a
Speaker 1: higher speed out of the arrow when it comes off
Speaker 1: the bow. But it's like a constant acceleration. It's not
Speaker 1: like it's going it's a constant acceleration. It's not like
Speaker 1: it's like maxing out like at this point in your release.
Speaker 1: But there's a point when it has to become redundant, right.
Speaker 1: But I think in the context of drawing a bow,
Speaker 1: it just continues to accelerate for that like length of time.
Speaker 1: I think that's why like a lot of the target
Speaker 1: archers shoot those huge acts lax bows, and having like
Speaker 1: your draw length is like such a mechanical advantage, Like
Speaker 1: you can increase it by three inches and get like
Speaker 1: an extra twenty per second. The equation is pretty simple
Speaker 1: that that explains that just conservation of energy. It's force
Speaker 1: times distance. It's gonna be equal to one half MV squared.
Speaker 1: So you're both doing this work on the arrow, which
Speaker 1: is that force times distance, and that's gonna be equal.
Speaker 1: It's going to be converted to kinetic energy. There's some
Speaker 1: slight losses in sound and heat, but mainly that's what's happening.
Speaker 1: I don't want I don't want to be dead horse
Speaker 1: by like. I will move on understanding that I don't
Speaker 1: understand it. But here's the thing. When I say infinite,
Speaker 1: I mean what what what? What do you guys use
Speaker 1: Let's say, if you have an eighty pound like you
Speaker 1: you pulling eighty pound bow? Okay, so what what number
Speaker 1: would you use as an engineer to like describe what
Speaker 1: that pressure is or what and you got an arrow
Speaker 1: on there? Now, if some guy had a fifty inch
Speaker 1: draw length or a sixty inch draw length at some
Speaker 1: point it seems to me that that arrow is just
Speaker 1: gonna be going to speed. It's gonna go when it
Speaker 1: leaves the string, And it doesn't matter if you've if
Speaker 1: it's a sixty in straw or a thirty in straw.
Speaker 1: At some point, the arrow is gonna harness whatever it's
Speaker 1: gonna harness from that speed. No, No, I mean, here's
Speaker 1: here's the I mean, here's the equation force times distance
Speaker 1: equals one half mb squared. Okay, so if that distance increases,
Speaker 1: it will come off with a higher velocity. No, I mean,
Speaker 1: but it can never go faster than the string, can they? Well,
Speaker 1: I should ask you if you measured if you took
Speaker 1: a thing that they used to measure, like someone's fastball,
Speaker 1: and you measured the movement of the string. Well, you
Speaker 1: know you're right. I'll tell you what you're right. It's
Speaker 1: like if you took the bow. I know you're not
Speaker 1: supposed to because you'll blow your limbs up. But let's
Speaker 1: say you could shoot your bow with no arrow on it. Right,
Speaker 1: that string probably moves a hell of a lot faster
Speaker 1: than it would with an arrow on it. Does I'm
Speaker 1: ready to move on now. Now I'm with you. Now,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. And it's because that arrow was slowing
Speaker 1: that string out it is, and that's actually why you
Speaker 1: get a little more momentum out of a heavier arrow,
Speaker 1: because it's being pushed a little slower. I said, talk
Speaker 1: myself into that one. But I'm I'm my I'm on
Speaker 1: step now. Okay, yeah, good, So that at least understand
Speaker 1: that didn't at least understand my question. Yeah, I wasn't
Speaker 1: thinking about it that it's carrying the lower that arrow
Speaker 1: and it's it's like, yeah, it's going to start out
Speaker 1: slower and then just increase as the arrow gets one man.
Speaker 1: You know, whatever your draw if you can draw along,
Speaker 1: if your draw force is longer, or you have a
Speaker 1: higher force, those are both going to increase the energy
Speaker 1: going to the arrow, you know, kind of one to
Speaker 1: one and then you have you know, one half mv
Speaker 1: square is the kinetic energy of the arrow, and then
Speaker 1: at the target, that kinetic energy is going to be
Speaker 1: converted back to work on the row. So now that
Speaker 1: energy is going to apply this force times distance to
Speaker 1: penetrate you know, through the target. And and this is
Speaker 1: part of the controversy out there, if it's if the
Speaker 1: target is safe foam that has a constant force to
Speaker 1: push through, and it's not velocity dependent, it's um. So
Speaker 1: for a given bow, it's kind of a constant energy
Speaker 1: machine or constant kinetic energy machine that whatever arrow weight
Speaker 1: you shoot out of there, it's getting the same force
Speaker 1: times distance applied to it. So we'll have very similar
Speaker 1: kinetic energy of that arrow, no matter if it's for me.
Speaker 1: For me, I just tested a four and fifty grain
Speaker 1: arrow and a five and fifty grain arrow and the
Speaker 1: kinetic energy and I measure the velocity get kinetic energy,
Speaker 1: and they were within about two percent of each other.
Speaker 1: That's what I've seen over a lot of people's data
Speaker 1: is kinetic energy is pretty constant within a few percent
Speaker 1: from a given bow UM, where a little more mass
Speaker 1: will make it a little more more efficient, a little
Speaker 1: less energy losses with sound or friction. But so if
Speaker 1: the force to penetrate the target is relatively constant, like fall.
Speaker 1: Did you say energy loss through sound? Yes? Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: so um, you know sound that you hear will be
Speaker 1: a little bit of energy loss. So I never thought
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, like wind drag or like you know,
Speaker 1: you're shoot an air in here, that's energy loss. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's not the drag itself. You're saying. The actual
Speaker 1: sound that it's making is the energy loss. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: vibration which we pick up a sound, there's energy loss there.
Speaker 1: There's energy losses due to friction when just whatever surfaces
Speaker 1: are rubbing against each other. UM. And and that um
Speaker 1: you know, the veins through the air, that's a friction
Speaker 1: loss too. And there's a little bit of heat that
Speaker 1: happens whenever there's friction. There's a small amount of heat,
Speaker 1: and that's how you lose energy there. But these are
Speaker 1: there's a small factors. Basically, what's happening that force times distance.
Speaker 1: We'll give you that kinetic energy and then an impact
Speaker 1: UM whatever energy you have, it'll equal some force times
Speaker 1: distance through the target. And a big revelation to me
Speaker 1: was that if I can reduce that force that takes
Speaker 1: to penetrate, I get more distance one to one. You
Speaker 1: can cut that force in half. You can go twice
Speaker 1: the distance. And probably the biggest revelation I found was
Speaker 1: just the importance of sharpness and edgey tension and how
Speaker 1: much you can reduce that force um just by having
Speaker 1: very sharp, hard edges that are durable enough. UM. But
Speaker 1: retain that sharpness and slide through. But part of the
Speaker 1: controversy even more lately is that the people that are
Speaker 1: onto speed and energy, they'll shoot two arrows in a
Speaker 1: target out of a bow too, into a phone target
Speaker 1: and show that these two arrows penetrate the same distance
Speaker 1: into phone um and they should because they have the
Speaker 1: same kinetic energy within a couple of per scent, and
Speaker 1: that energy is going to apply some force times distance
Speaker 1: and if the forces um not velocity dependent, you know,
Speaker 1: fairly constant, they'll both go the same distance. So that's
Speaker 1: kind of been the argument on the light fast people saying, hey,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter how heavy your arrow is, it's going
Speaker 1: the same distance through foam or blissic gael. The problem
Speaker 1: is it's really target dependent, and when you have an
Speaker 1: animal there's I believe there's a velocity dependence there. You know,
Speaker 1: there's been some studies that show that, you know, muscle
Speaker 1: tissue and organs are visco elastic, so that means they're
Speaker 1: the forces share dependent. So the faster you're cutting on,
Speaker 1: the higher the force goes up. So in that case
Speaker 1: mass mass is a benefit um and you can work
Speaker 1: through the calculus and the equations on this. But just
Speaker 1: give you an example. For me, if I shoot my
Speaker 1: four and fifty grade arrow rain arrow um, I estimate
Speaker 1: if there's a velocity dependence on force that's um linear.
Speaker 1: I estimate I'll get about more penetration to say muscle
Speaker 1: um by having higher mass that's going from four to
Speaker 1: five fifty. So I believe I believe both sides have
Speaker 1: it a little bit wrong. I think the the high
Speaker 1: speed guys that are saying it only kinetic energy is
Speaker 1: all that matters. I believe there is a mass factor
Speaker 1: to it, and I believe a lot of people that
Speaker 1: have have shot heavier arrows have had that experience on
Speaker 1: animals that yeah, I'm getting a little more penetration here
Speaker 1: with this higher mass um. So I think that's that's
Speaker 1: why they have it a bit wrong. But I think
Speaker 1: also on their side, like dr at ashby Law, those
Speaker 1: followers say it's all mass um and they make out
Speaker 1: to the mass is a huge factor, and I don't
Speaker 1: think it's that big of a factor. I feel like
Speaker 1: you know, for me that four five fifty grains, I
Speaker 1: estimate that will be about a ten percent increase in
Speaker 1: penetrate asan um and that's true. Say muscle tissue like that,
Speaker 1: would you gain another teen percent going another hundred grains
Speaker 1: to six fifty? I think so, I think a fifty
Speaker 1: probably another And it's so it's so target dependent though,
Speaker 1: really and what are you what are you going through? Um?
Speaker 1: If you're going through bones, then then I think that
Speaker 1: momentum and like I said to that, I finally get
Speaker 1: about tem percent more momentum out of out of that
Speaker 1: heavier arrow as well. And for bone penetration, it's really
Speaker 1: that the force times time. So this is Newton's second law.
Speaker 1: Motion is force equals mass times acceleration, and then acceleration
Speaker 1: is change of velocity over time. So if you just
Speaker 1: move time over to the side, you get forced times
Speaker 1: time equals mass times change in velocity or change the
Speaker 1: momentum was force times time And you're moving to the
Speaker 1: other side now because we're slowing down as it's going
Speaker 1: through the animal. Well, it's it's because I want to
Speaker 1: isolate momentum and explain how momentum helps you. So momentum
Speaker 1: that impact will apply some force impulse this force times
Speaker 1: time and I've done a lot of product shock testing
Speaker 1: in the past. Will we'll design develop a product and
Speaker 1: then we'll shock it at higher and higher levels to
Speaker 1: see when it breaks. And what I've learned from that
Speaker 1: is there's just a damaged boundary curve um theory. But
Speaker 1: it's you need. You need to apply a force for
Speaker 1: an amount of time. You can have an infinitely high force.
Speaker 1: If it's too short and duration, it doesn't break anything. Right,
Speaker 1: Like I could apply a thousand pounds to your nose
Speaker 1: for a millisecond and and it wouldn't hurt at all.
Speaker 1: But if I applied it for a second, you know,
Speaker 1: it would break your nose. So a lot of things
Speaker 1: act like that. They need a given force for a
Speaker 1: given amount of time to break um. So momentum equals
Speaker 1: force times time. Having that temper cent higher momentum might
Speaker 1: just get you over that threshold to break. And it's
Speaker 1: another thing with with um dr Ashby. He said, there's
Speaker 1: a sixty grain threshold. Velocity doesn't matter, it's just mass,
Speaker 1: and a lot of people have just run with that,
Speaker 1: and there's a few there's a couple of things that
Speaker 1: are kind of wrong with that. For one, you need
Speaker 1: you need velocity because it's really that mass times velocity
Speaker 1: that gives you this impulse, force, force times time it's
Speaker 1: gonna be able to break something, um something, And one
Speaker 1: of the things we're talking about here is something being
Speaker 1: like through a bone, like right, well, there has to
Speaker 1: be some minimum velocity, right, because it just won't work
Speaker 1: at zero velocity. Right. And I've said that over the
Speaker 1: phone to theme, like if I throw that arrow at
Speaker 1: a cape buffalo, it's not going through that bone, right,
Speaker 1: So it's not just mass um and uh, And I
Speaker 1: think he understands that, but I think he, you know,
Speaker 1: his his world is ah is a long bow shooting
Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty yards at a cape buffalo. And that's
Speaker 1: really what he was after, you know, getting through that
Speaker 1: high in that um like a three quarter in thick
Speaker 1: flat rib bone. And that's what all his work work
Speaker 1: is around. And it's gonna be so target and dependent.
Speaker 1: You know what, what what momentum or what force impulse
Speaker 1: does it take to break the bone depends on what
Speaker 1: the bone is, right. I mean that that should be
Speaker 1: obvious to people that a scapula is thinner than maybe
Speaker 1: lower on the shoulder bone to a leg bone. And
Speaker 1: so that's one side of it. It depends on what
Speaker 1: the bone is. The other thing is that depends on
Speaker 1: what you're trying to drive through the bone. If you're
Speaker 1: trying to drive um, you know, aluminum ferrel, chisel point
Speaker 1: head and very thin blades, it could be that it's
Speaker 1: gonna use that force, you know, that force to crush
Speaker 1: that is less than the force to pop that bone.
Speaker 1: And that's what happens a lot there. Um. So that
Speaker 1: what you mean the force that before it pops the bone,
Speaker 1: it will break the blades. Yes, yeah, it'll break the
Speaker 1: blade or bend over the ferrel or things like that.
Speaker 1: So you know, dr Ashby, I think his number one
Speaker 1: thing was structural integrity of the broadhead and the components.
Speaker 1: So yes, so I think that, I mean we agree there.
Speaker 1: And and that's a lot of what was wrong with
Speaker 1: the products I had been using is there was no
Speaker 1: way they're going to make it through bone. You know,
Speaker 1: they crushed when they go through bone. And and that's
Speaker 1: a lot of the initial work I did. As I
Speaker 1: spent about five years going through different steels, different heat
Speaker 1: treat processes, ended up settling on a two tool steel,
Speaker 1: which is used to cut metal and metal stamping dies
Speaker 1: because it can be very hard, sharp, and it has
Speaker 1: the toughness, you know, to cut metals or to cut
Speaker 1: through bone and and and not get crushed because if
Speaker 1: things get crushed or bend or break, it just sucks
Speaker 1: up all the energy. Um, So we don't totally agree there.
Speaker 1: You need something durable enough to get through the bone.
Speaker 1: But then I don't think grain is is a great number.
Speaker 1: It didn't work for me being an out west bow hunter.
Speaker 1: It was too heavy. I was getting a big nose
Speaker 1: dive to my arrows when that arrow dives off. You uh,
Speaker 1: like if you're shooting a real heavy arrow and it
Speaker 1: dies off and you're talking about the nose dive right
Speaker 1: as it drops some velocity. Um, obviously it going slower
Speaker 1: isn't good. But does that does that changed angle matter? Yeah,
Speaker 1: there is a change of angle, and you know, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't stay necessarily like it starts to lose it's horizontal,
Speaker 1: right yeah? Or does it? Am I wrong? No, you're right.
Speaker 1: I've shot animals a long distance and the entrance to
Speaker 1: the next of holes looked like I shot it out
Speaker 1: of a tree stand. So there's a lot of drop.
Speaker 1: And you also need to know your yardage very accurately
Speaker 1: then too, because that's going to ask when when you
Speaker 1: see or at what distance you see the nose dives starting.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that that's dependent on many factors,
Speaker 1: but yeah, you know, at that time with the bow
Speaker 1: I was using, and it both have become a lot
Speaker 1: more efficient, but at that time, trying to shoot a
Speaker 1: six de green arrow out of my seventy pombo and
Speaker 1: energy it had, I was really seeing a dive off
Speaker 1: a lot at fifty yards, okay, and that's that's going
Speaker 1: to vary by bo And well that's like one of
Speaker 1: the things that like I shoot a shoot a rover
Speaker 1: site and I got one pin like set at forty
Speaker 1: that's like adjustable one pin set at six it's adjustable's
Speaker 1: two pin system. And the reason I got that was
Speaker 1: specifically because like I felt comfortable pin gapping out to
Speaker 1: about you know, forty yards, you know, so anything between
Speaker 1: thirty and like forty, but past that I noticed there
Speaker 1: was such a significant drop that even and I'm not
Speaker 1: shooting a particularly heavy air. I mean I'm shooting like
Speaker 1: on like the heavier spec from my setups like five
Speaker 1: and fifteen grains, but even that past forty yards, I mean,
Speaker 1: like the differential is huge. If you think something that
Speaker 1: forty four and you think it's walking broadside, but it's
Speaker 1: actually kind of like walking away from you at a
Speaker 1: very slight angle. And it's at forty seven, You're like,
Speaker 1: point impact is going to be like four inches different
Speaker 1: sometimes right, and and like you, I like to if
Speaker 1: I see it, say an elk under fifty yards, I
Speaker 1: just want to draw and shoot it. I've had too
Speaker 1: many times when I decided to go and range and
Speaker 1: it was some other animals saw me and they took
Speaker 1: off running, and I kicked myself, like why didn't I
Speaker 1: just draw and shoot. I knew it was forty or
Speaker 1: forty four, And so yeah, if it's under fifty, I
Speaker 1: like the eyeball range it take the shot because you
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen if you wait longer. Um.
Speaker 1: So that's part of the reason I wanted to have
Speaker 1: a flatter trajectory. Yeah. Well, and then also it like eliminates,
Speaker 1: Like when I think about like an accurate arrow or
Speaker 1: like an arrow that will kill something in particular, I
Speaker 1: think about that shot is like a percentage. Um. If
Speaker 1: it's like I would rather know that I can put
Speaker 1: the arrow when I where I mean to inside a
Speaker 1: fifty yards then have the insurance that comes from being like, well,
Speaker 1: I can blow through that things scalpular scapula if I
Speaker 1: like make a bad shot. And so it's like, what's
Speaker 1: the trade off there. It's like, I get the insurance
Speaker 1: if it's like right or left, I guess, but I
Speaker 1: I put myself into disadvantage because if my range is
Speaker 1: even a little bit off, like it's going to be.
Speaker 1: You know, what I'm saying does makes sense. That's totally
Speaker 1: the tradeoff. And that's what I tell people that ask for,
Speaker 1: you know, how do I increase my penetration? And I
Speaker 1: tell them they'll shoot. Shoot the heaviest mass you can
Speaker 1: for the trajectory that you want, or within the trajectory
Speaker 1: that you want, because increasing mass will give you those
Speaker 1: increases in penetration. They're not they're not huge, but you know,
Speaker 1: like I said, it's maybe hundred grain roughly or give
Speaker 1: you a ten percent better chance of breaking that bone.
Speaker 1: Say so, so there is an improvement to mass, but
Speaker 1: it's dropping off your trajectory. So that's the tradeoff. Really,
Speaker 1: and I think, really, I mean I think Ashby, like
Speaker 1: he kind of was saying the same thing, was like
Speaker 1: six fifty was the best that worked for him. But
Speaker 1: I think he says that you should shoot the heaviest
Speaker 1: era you can within the accept the trajectory that's acceptable
Speaker 1: to you personally. Right. Yeah, he's been he's been saying that.
Speaker 1: I've seen that more lately and I've changes tune a
Speaker 1: little bit. I think maybe, I mean, I've been saying
Speaker 1: that to him for a couple of years, but I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want to say influence to that.
Speaker 1: I want to bring up to your point, this is
Speaker 1: what Mark. I would like to take credit for this.
Speaker 1: But Mark Boordman brought up this because we were having
Speaker 1: this conversation Mark Warman from Vortex everybody over there. He's saying,
Speaker 1: you know, I'd like a flat shoot arrow because like
Speaker 1: the last two or three white tail box that he shy,
Speaker 1: I've been like plus forty and maybe even right at
Speaker 1: fifty yards, you know, which is pretty far shot, small target,
Speaker 1: you know, on a on a white tail and uh,
Speaker 1: but we were kind of talking about what a heavier
Speaker 1: arrow can do, like if you happen to miss, and
Speaker 1: he says to me, is you know, but I didn't
Speaker 1: think about all the shots that I've passed up that
Speaker 1: were close because I didn't have the proper orientation to
Speaker 1: the animal, you know, whether he was quartering too like
Speaker 1: he could have just been bone he could have just
Speaker 1: been bone busting the whole time. And exactly that's one
Speaker 1: of the biggest factors I think for you know, shooting
Speaker 1: ironwell broadhead and shooting a little heavier arrow is on
Speaker 1: a deer sized animal, it just opens up all these
Speaker 1: other shot angles. You know, the last last couple of
Speaker 1: meal deer I've shot, we're actually quartering on coming into
Speaker 1: decoys and a little bit of a downward shot. I
Speaker 1: knew what the I know the bone structure, well, I
Speaker 1: knew it was going to be thin scapula and put
Speaker 1: it right through there and um got a complete pass
Speaker 1: through into the ground. But I was just totally confident
Speaker 1: that I can make that shot with this broadhead, this arrow. Um,
Speaker 1: so I did think it does opens up shot opportunit
Speaker 1: introduce you know, I started shooting your broadheads because Phelps does,
Speaker 1: and Phelps has real strong opinions about it, and he
Speaker 1: taught me into shooting them, and then uh, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's a little bit tricky, but he talked me into
Speaker 1: him and Yanni. He kind of taught me into like
Speaker 1: a shot that I would have never taken in the
Speaker 1: old days, the front shot full yeah, the frontal shot
Speaker 1: like low Brisket and um Menfel's bullshot bulls together like
Speaker 1: that last year with your broadheads, and that neither of
Speaker 1: them went anywhere, And that was kind of like I'm
Speaker 1: not saying I don't you know, it worked good, but
Speaker 1: it was kind of like that doing a thing that
Speaker 1: you thought you weren't supposed to do, but someone convincing
Speaker 1: you that you had the right, necessary thing to do it.
Speaker 1: But it still feels funny, like to get you a
Speaker 1: point where you're like to get to a point where
Speaker 1: you had deer that are quartering to you and you're
Speaker 1: so confident about what's gonna happen, You're just gonna like
Speaker 1: punch in there, no one. You're gonna bust through all
Speaker 1: those bones, you know, Yeah, for years I didn't. For years,
Speaker 1: I passed up frontal shots or slight quartering two and
Speaker 1: it was through. And at the same time, I've shot
Speaker 1: through hundreds of leg bones with our broad heads and
Speaker 1: completely passed through even like a moose femur, completely passed
Speaker 1: through and the broadhead looks good, so I knew that
Speaker 1: it could get through the bones. But yeah, I had that,
Speaker 1: still had that in my head that according to is
Speaker 1: a is a no go shot or frontals and no
Speaker 1: go But um yeah, and you know people are going
Speaker 1: to argue whether or not it's ethical, But I think
Speaker 1: I've got the knowledge at this point that I know
Speaker 1: it's going through a hundred percent confident it's going through
Speaker 1: that bone and it's gonna stick into the ground on
Speaker 1: the other side of them. You know. The thing that
Speaker 1: comes out of this is I remember and talking to Ask,
Speaker 1: we talked about this where if you hit it, like
Speaker 1: if you hit a deer, elk, whatever, and you come
Speaker 1: in behind the shoulder blade and you angle in and
Speaker 1: punch a hole in its heart, it's dead. It's like
Speaker 1: He's like, it was kind of like, we're not talking
Speaker 1: about that, like all the setups out there everybody has.
Speaker 1: If you don't if you go pass between two ribs
Speaker 1: and punch a hole in it's heart, sure, right. The
Speaker 1: conversation is what happens when it doesn't do that? Right?
Speaker 1: Any broadhead you shoot behind the shoulder, all you have
Speaker 1: is maybe a rib and the hearts there. You know,
Speaker 1: any broadhead is gonna gonna kill it. It's what are
Speaker 1: the other trade offs. Let's say it ducked and turned
Speaker 1: into it and you hit the shoulder and let me
Speaker 1: add before I forget, I don't want to advocate that,
Speaker 1: you know, kids out there should be shooting deer in
Speaker 1: the shoulder blade right now either because it's it's going
Speaker 1: to depend on your set up, your broad head. You know,
Speaker 1: you have to know what you're capable of, and I
Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't want to encourage, you know,
Speaker 1: shots that would be unethical if you don't have the
Speaker 1: right set up for it. Mechanicals. You know, you're not
Speaker 1: going through the shoulder blade probably. But it's a funny
Speaker 1: conversation though, to say ethical, because you'd be like, that's
Speaker 1: not ethical, and you'd say, well, why is that not ethical?
Speaker 1: Is it measured by it's measured by an obsolete It's like,
Speaker 1: not ethical as measured by obsolete technology, right, I believe it.
Speaker 1: That's where it came from. It's not ethical because it
Speaker 1: doesn't work, and you'd be like, well, it does work.
Speaker 1: I believe, Yeah, I believe it's ethical if there's a
Speaker 1: high percentage chance it's going to be a very quick,
Speaker 1: quick kill. Um, And I believe it is. And if
Speaker 1: with a mechanical I don't think it is. Togotiot it
Speaker 1: to the shoulder blade. There's a I mean, they might
Speaker 1: get through, but a good chance they wouldn't. So you know,
Speaker 1: you might argue that's not an ethical shot, but it's
Speaker 1: I guess that's why I use the word ethicals. I
Speaker 1: feel like as a hypercentage of a very quick kill,
Speaker 1: very quick death of taking the animal. But it's interesting
Speaker 1: to I guess, like at risk of overstaying. The point
Speaker 1: would be when you say whether or not a certain
Speaker 1: shot with the bow was ethical. It's sort of like,
Speaker 1: is it ethical with what I'm shooting right? Not? Is
Speaker 1: it ethical right with what I'm shooting? My personal capabilities,
Speaker 1: my effective range, all those things come into it. I think,
Speaker 1: is it you know, what are the odds of that animal?
Speaker 1: You're gonna take that animal quickly? U versus maybe wound
Speaker 1: the animal? You know, that would be the the decision there.
Speaker 1: One of the things that asked you said, and I
Speaker 1: noticed that because I had had your broadheads is um.
Speaker 1: He said that the shape of the point on your
Speaker 1: broadheads is like the big no, no, really, you didn't
Speaker 1: know this. No, No, I think he said he likes it.
Speaker 1: I think I thought he said that anything with the
Speaker 1: shoulder Tonto tip. It's the same thing that he uses
Speaker 1: that they like to know he likes the Tonto tip,
Speaker 1: for sure. I thought he only liked the long gradual point. Well,
Speaker 1: he likes the three to one, and that's the She
Speaker 1: didn't say that it's naughty to have a step or
Speaker 1: a shoulder per cent. You're positive. That's pretty positive. Are
Speaker 1: you talking about the shoulder on the on the blade.
Speaker 1: I thought that's a no, that's not no. He likes that.
Speaker 1: That's the Tonto tip. That's it. That adds a lot
Speaker 1: of strength. Messing up, you're messing it up. But he doesn't.
Speaker 1: He does push the three to one, which is the biggest,
Speaker 1: one of the biggest points of contention I really have
Speaker 1: with them. Okay, explain three to one, all right, So
Speaker 1: it's being applied wrong. It's the mechanism is wrong there.
Speaker 1: It's he's saying a three. He's saying a broadhead that
Speaker 1: has say three to one aspect ratio, like three inches
Speaker 1: long one inch wide. Okay, draw that for me. You're
Speaker 1: talking about you're talking about the shape of the broadhead. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: so he just drew a little broadhead, very classic little broadhead. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So the length is three inches and the width is
Speaker 1: one inch okay at its base. Yeah. Yeah, the width,
Speaker 1: like the cutting width you'd have would be one inch,
Speaker 1: but the length out sticking out the front of the
Speaker 1: arrow is three inches. So that makes three to one.
Speaker 1: That's three to one. It takes three inches. It takes
Speaker 1: three inches to express it's full one inch of width. Yes, Like,
Speaker 1: if I want to make a one inch cut in
Speaker 1: your abdomen, a one inch wide cut in your abdomen,
Speaker 1: I would need to insert this blade three inches into you. Right,
Speaker 1: it's got a it's making a wedge. It's like you
Speaker 1: the wedge and inches gotta pushed forward three inches And
Speaker 1: he likes three to one. Yeah, and which I would
Speaker 1: say is a shallow ass angle. It is. It's it's
Speaker 1: nine degrees. And I would say I could imagine, taken
Speaker 1: to an extreme, you might wind up with something pretty
Speaker 1: flimsy up towards the tip exactly. So there's there's two
Speaker 1: negatives to it. One is like an engineer, bro you are,
Speaker 1: So there's two. You know that I understand that problem.
Speaker 1: There's two disadvantages. One is it's got a weak point
Speaker 1: um because the stress is proportional to length cube. So
Speaker 1: a three to one is going to have a lot
Speaker 1: higher stress and be more likely to break the tip off. Okay.
Speaker 1: The other issues is not going to fly very well
Speaker 1: because you got a lot more surface area. Well, it's
Speaker 1: gonna be less stable, less forgiving in flight m okay.
Speaker 1: And what he says is that this has a three
Speaker 1: to one mechanical advantage, and that's that's where the problem is.
Speaker 1: Mechanical advantage is it's a term used on a simple
Speaker 1: machine to give the ratio of force import the force
Speaker 1: house output. So like on a lever, you might have
Speaker 1: like you input a force, you get three three and
Speaker 1: put one pound, you get three pounds out. You know
Speaker 1: the shape of the lever. So he's applying that to
Speaker 1: a broadhead like it's a wedge, Like it's wedging something
Speaker 1: up an inch okay, like like a box that would
Speaker 1: slide on a wedge. Yeah, if you pushed in a
Speaker 1: pound of force, you get about a three pound pushed
Speaker 1: it with one pound you get about three pounds force
Speaker 1: pushing that up. Well, a broadhead doesn't wedge an animal apart.
Speaker 1: It's just a big it's a big myth here that
Speaker 1: it's really cutting it, it's slicing it. You're only wedging
Speaker 1: it apart the thickness of the blades, yeah, or the
Speaker 1: ferreal yeah, or then the ferrel and then and then
Speaker 1: the and then the arrow. But it's totally been applied wrong.
Speaker 1: Three to one mechanical advantage should not be applied to
Speaker 1: a broadhead. You call the three to one aspect ratio.
Speaker 1: But it's dominated by the force to cut. Okay, it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not wedging the whole animal apart. So is there
Speaker 1: some other scientific term or or mechanism that what he
Speaker 1: because what are he is saying is correct? Right? If
Speaker 1: if your blade is steeper, it should take less force
Speaker 1: to push through the medium than if it was wider. Yes,
Speaker 1: And what I've found myself is that it's good point.
Speaker 1: So a three to one, three to one has about
Speaker 1: it because eight degrees per side. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: looking at the access of the arrow, three one is
Speaker 1: about eight degree a one and a half to one
Speaker 1: is about sixteen degrees. Those are both very shallow angles
Speaker 1: when you talk about cutting something, and what I found
Speaker 1: is there very little difference in force to penetrate if
Speaker 1: you have a very sharp edge. So if you think
Speaker 1: about taking a knife and you're gonna cut a roast,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna just cut it at an eight degree angle,
Speaker 1: and what force would that take versus a sixteen degree angle?
Speaker 1: What force would that take with a really sharp knife.
Speaker 1: They're both pretty shallow cuts, right, they're both just slicing.
Speaker 1: Now if you get up to like forty five degrees
Speaker 1: are more where it's more of a chop, then I
Speaker 1: think that's where. So if you tested it all the
Speaker 1: way out to degrees or seeing like when does it
Speaker 1: make a difference When all of a sudden you're like,
Speaker 1: all right, yeah, this thing is not penetrating. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think up over up over forty maybe it does. But
Speaker 1: what I've seen in the in the range and even
Speaker 1: at a one to one that's a twenty six degree angle,
Speaker 1: it's pretty shallow. Um I have found, and I've I've
Speaker 1: measured the force to penetrate, you know with the instro
Speaker 1: machine going not through hide and muscle, and I don't
Speaker 1: get any difference in force with with that. Um those
Speaker 1: changes in angle of about one to one one point
Speaker 1: five to one. And I've talked to dr Ashby about this,
Speaker 1: and the last time I talked to him he actually said, yeah,
Speaker 1: my data doesn't really um doesn't really show the three
Speaker 1: to one. He's tested two point six to one and
Speaker 1: had the same results as three to one. He said
Speaker 1: that was more of a Howard Hill thing that was
Speaker 1: carried forward. So it's more like folklore that you need
Speaker 1: a three to one for um for a broadhead shape.
Speaker 1: So that's a myth. Let's everybody out there but saying
Speaker 1: it saying it. It's not true. Do you know what's
Speaker 1: driving me crazy? More crazy than when I couldn't understand
Speaker 1: about the bow and the length of the amount of
Speaker 1: time your string applies pressure under your air, that constant acceleration. Dude,
Speaker 1: I where there was something about that. He didn't like
Speaker 1: a shoulder, he didn't like. Chisel tips he liked he
Speaker 1: wanted to cut on contact, which is what that is.
Speaker 1: So what he liked is the tonto tips, so that
Speaker 1: straight three to one where it's got the same angle
Speaker 1: going all the way out. He likes truncating that with
Speaker 1: a little bit. So tonto tip just means instead of
Speaker 1: having that say eight degree per side all the way out,
Speaker 1: you go to maybe a twenty degree per side right
Speaker 1: right at the end, and if you don't, you break
Speaker 1: that tip really easily. Structural integrity. Right, Yeah, So that's
Speaker 1: basically the reason for it. I found that too. I
Speaker 1: was testing a lot of three to one broadheads initially
Speaker 1: through bone. I was breaking the points off all the time,
Speaker 1: and they weren't flying well, and so I started in
Speaker 1: my own design getting getting shorter and shorter over time,
Speaker 1: and then adding that tonto tip to increase that strength
Speaker 1: when he hit heavy bones. So that's what you're after
Speaker 1: when you do that tonto tip blade is you're after
Speaker 1: getting rid of that somewhat flimsy narrow point. Right on
Speaker 1: one of Dr at Ashby's broadheads, he does have a
Speaker 1: slight tonto tip on it. It's like he does very slight.
Speaker 1: That's wrong, Okay, yeah, that's that's one of those Remember
Speaker 1: remember happy days when he'd be like, I was rude,
Speaker 1: So what uh, how do how do you like what
Speaker 1: have you done to actually test it on bone? Right?
Speaker 1: Because I think that there's a thing like a guy
Speaker 1: like take something in my mind would be you can
Speaker 1: look and be uh, all right, I accept all the
Speaker 1: laws of physics, okay, but in your head, like, but
Speaker 1: what if you like, what if you're like missing something,
Speaker 1: like you're not thinking of something? Right? So I just
Speaker 1: would want to see, um shoot it into a bunch
Speaker 1: of owns and see what happens. Can you do you
Speaker 1: feel that you can get to a thing where you
Speaker 1: know you've accounted for everything and not need to go
Speaker 1: do that? Because I was thinking that's kind of the
Speaker 1: main thing he brings to it is he shot umpteen
Speaker 1: thousand arrows into all kinds of dead ship, right, do
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying? Like how you know if
Speaker 1: you went to a lot of you know, the bulk
Speaker 1: of Americans, I think they'd go like, Okay, I get
Speaker 1: all the you know, all the thinking and calculating and figuring, right,
Speaker 1: but how can you argue with just shooting arrows into
Speaker 1: dead stuff and seeing what it does? Because what if
Speaker 1: the tinker the figuring and thinking didn't account for some
Speaker 1: like unknown weirdness like what hair? You know, what is
Speaker 1: what is the role of hair? What is the role
Speaker 1: of it of hide? What is the role of hitting hide?
Speaker 1: And then the bone? Yeah, good point. You can have
Speaker 1: we can have the mechanisms wrong, right, I gonna try
Speaker 1: and apply science, but I could up being applying it
Speaker 1: wrong if I if the mechanisms a little bit different
Speaker 1: than I think this. Um, kind of that wedge versus
Speaker 1: cutting thing going on. Um. And and you're right in theory,
Speaker 1: and I've done this in theory. I can calculate it
Speaker 1: with my bow, my arrow, set up my broad head.
Speaker 1: You know I've measured the force to penetrate hide muscle scapula.
Speaker 1: I can you know theoretically, I calculated that I can
Speaker 1: get a double shoulder blade passed through on an elk
Speaker 1: on paper. Um, But you cant be some part of
Speaker 1: your brain. It's like, now, I'll try it out right,
Speaker 1: and I and I have. I've gotten single shoulder blade
Speaker 1: pastors on on elk. I haven't shopland through both. But
Speaker 1: I've shot a big boar through both shoulder blades and
Speaker 1: spine and got passed through both shoulder blades and the spine.
Speaker 1: So you know, I hunt a lot. I get, um average,
Speaker 1: maybe fifteen animals a year. I hunt had a lot
Speaker 1: of elk u, elk, deer, herbo pigs, other things. So
Speaker 1: I mean I love bone hunting. And that's really why
Speaker 1: I'm doing this is I want to be a more
Speaker 1: effective bone hunter. Um. But I also shot a lot
Speaker 1: of bones, so I was getting you know, cattle bones
Speaker 1: from the butcher, saving elk bones, and and that's really
Speaker 1: one of my early goals was just to penetrate through bone,
Speaker 1: make sure I got to the vitals and didn't have
Speaker 1: it stopped there. So you know, that made me iterate
Speaker 1: on which steel type um, which ferreal type going to
Speaker 1: like titanium hardened steel so the ferrels didn't bend um
Speaker 1: and then work on the arrow connection set up so
Speaker 1: that that you know, the arrow didn't break as well.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I've tested on by shooting a lot of bones,
Speaker 1: and really because that's a good durability test in that
Speaker 1: and that impact is hard to model. It's hard to
Speaker 1: just calculate. Um. It's very complex and if you think
Speaker 1: about it, and what I didn't really I really hadn't
Speaker 1: put a lot of thought into it prior to two
Speaker 1: thousand four is the it A broadhead blade has a
Speaker 1: really difficult job. I mean, where else out there do
Speaker 1: you have something that you want to be very very
Speaker 1: sharp to cut, but you're also gonna fling it at
Speaker 1: three inter feet per twod and not know what you hit.
Speaker 1: It might hit, it's gonna hit high, it might hit bone. Um,
Speaker 1: you don't know what angle is gonna hit at. So
Speaker 1: it's a pretty it's a pretty difficult job. You know.
Speaker 1: That broadhead has just to stay intact, stay sharp, cut,
Speaker 1: and to have this tremendous impact. Um. Yeah, that's that's
Speaker 1: a You bring up an interesting point there because if
Speaker 1: you imagine, like taking your filet knife and cleaning a fish,
Speaker 1: you have this instrument designed for that might be great
Speaker 1: for cutting through right fish muscle, right right, But then
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you realize that you put a
Speaker 1: scale in front of it and it doesn't like that,
Speaker 1: and you go to remove the fish's collar and it
Speaker 1: definitely doesn't like that. And then you imagine, now I'm
Speaker 1: gonna stab it through the fish's skull. It really doesn't
Speaker 1: like that. But you wouldn't declare, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: But you're sort of with your broadhead, your sort of
Speaker 1: saying no, no, no, you gotta I want you to
Speaker 1: do any and all of that right when I shoot
Speaker 1: it at this fish, when I take it to this fish, right, yeah,
Speaker 1: And that's why a lot of a lot of broadheads.
Speaker 1: That broadheads kind of evolved to be manufactured at low cost,
Speaker 1: so cheaper materials, thinner parts, um, a lot of luminum
Speaker 1: or softer steel, ferrells and four twenty blade steel. Um,
Speaker 1: it's kind of a low end steel, but it can
Speaker 1: be manufactured very low cost. And so a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of the products drove more towards you know,
Speaker 1: lower cost to manufacture, and I think that's what consumers wanted.
Speaker 1: They wanted things that were lower cost. And they work
Speaker 1: if you hit him behind the shoulder, they work fine, Um,
Speaker 1: but they don't do very good on these on these
Speaker 1: bone impacts. What is some of the cost differentials out there? Um,
Speaker 1: you know, just in dollars, what's a cheap broadhead and
Speaker 1: what's an expensive broadhead? Yeah, three for thirty or forty
Speaker 1: dollars just kind of going right for most um, you know,
Speaker 1: big star broadheads, I would say, and and um so
Speaker 1: still ten bucks twelve bucks apiece. Yeah, that's that's probably
Speaker 1: most typical. I mean you'll find some that are six
Speaker 1: dollars really really low and stuff. Um, but I say
Speaker 1: it on three for forties pretty common, three forty five
Speaker 1: fifties some um, you know ironmal broadheads are we're at
Speaker 1: like one nineteen for a three pack, so it's about
Speaker 1: really yeah, like three times as much. So wow, I
Speaker 1: had no idea where like where's that you know, I've
Speaker 1: trusted it's going somewhere. Where is that money going? I
Speaker 1: don't mean, like what are you doing? Like what what
Speaker 1: are the materials differences? Do you know what I mean? Yeah? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So like what is expensive about? What is what makes
Speaker 1: them expensive material? It's some material als and manufacturing processes.
Speaker 1: So yeah, the steel, for instance, it's a it's a
Speaker 1: tool steel. It's thick, so you know, versus most blades
Speaker 1: they are thinner. They can you can run those on
Speaker 1: a reel to reel, you can have a coil of
Speaker 1: material on one side. It can go through a machine,
Speaker 1: get stamped um, ground everything right there, and come out
Speaker 1: on the other side as a complete blade. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a very low cost to make those versus this
Speaker 1: blade has made more like you would high end knife
Speaker 1: where you're you're taking you're blanking out the steel. When
Speaker 1: it softened, we do a heat treatment with a triple
Speaker 1: temper and a cry genic treatment to kind of maximize
Speaker 1: performance of the steel. And then it's a multi stage
Speaker 1: grinding and honing. UM. So it's extremely sharpen and holds
Speaker 1: the edge. You know, it's sixty rockwell see, which is
Speaker 1: what you'd have on a on a high end knife
Speaker 1: really but yet with a tool steel it it can
Speaker 1: take a high impact strength. Um. And as we're talking
Speaker 1: about the difficult job of a broadhead, that's why a
Speaker 1: lot of people will try to apply knife steels to it,
Speaker 1: which the steel might work great and a knife because
Speaker 1: it's not having a high speed impact, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to have a lot of toughness. Um. But stainless steel
Speaker 1: is fairly brittle when it's that hard and it has
Speaker 1: some high high impact. Do you sell a lot of
Speaker 1: broadheads the white tail guys? Do you MUSTI sell broad
Speaker 1: has the guys that are hunting elk and moves and stuff.
Speaker 1: It's it's becoming more and more definitely. Initially we were
Speaker 1: selling to elk hunters. That was our major customer or
Speaker 1: guys coming from the east west to hunt elk, and
Speaker 1: we're it's kind of thought of as like an elk
Speaker 1: specialty broadhead. You know, this is made to penetrate through
Speaker 1: a bigger animal further um, But more and more white
Speaker 1: tail guys are using it too, And what I found
Speaker 1: personally is I needed a lot in white tails because
Speaker 1: there's so much more likely to move, you know, duck
Speaker 1: and turn um and and hit the shoulder. So I
Speaker 1: think it's um you know, it opens up shot opportunities
Speaker 1: straight down through the spa line. Or if you hit
Speaker 1: a shoulder and a white tail and it's it's it's
Speaker 1: maybe not the average white tail hunter, but it's the
Speaker 1: guy that's going after the you know, the bigger buck,
Speaker 1: or he's really passionate about about it and doesn't want
Speaker 1: doesn't want to have any failures. He wants to remove
Speaker 1: any failures you can from this gear and set up. Hey,
Speaker 1: and you just killed an antelope with one of with
Speaker 1: the iron wheel broadhead right here? Man, let me see
Speaker 1: it now, Yannie, what broadheads you shooting these days? It's
Speaker 1: called a tough head evolution. Now, uh, let's do those
Speaker 1: play this game. Let's say let's say Bill handed you
Speaker 1: a box of the broadheads. You'd say, well, no, I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna use those, because uh, now I wouldn't. I think,
Speaker 1: I mean for what I for what I know, they're
Speaker 1: very similar. I mean I think that some of the
Speaker 1: steel and some of the stuff that Bill can speak
Speaker 1: to that I can't. But I think as far as
Speaker 1: like shape and uh size and what they're supposed to do,
Speaker 1: it's they're pretty similar. Yeah, it's a high and broad
Speaker 1: head to it. It uses tool steel. Um, do you
Speaker 1: know what steel you're using and the ones you have?
Speaker 1: That's all right. I think there's a couple of use.
Speaker 1: But he's using tool steel. Um. One of the difference
Speaker 1: would be I've I've added bleeders. I really like that
Speaker 1: cross cut, and and that's kind of more game dependent.
Speaker 1: If I was just like dr Ashby going after Kate
Speaker 1: Buffalo or as no no bleeders, Yeah, he just likes
Speaker 1: a two blade. Yeah, and if if I was shooting
Speaker 1: and we make up what we call our buff series
Speaker 1: which has no bleeders really for somebody that wants to
Speaker 1: go after Kate Buffalo. But what I found from North
Speaker 1: American big game, having a cross cut of a bleeder
Speaker 1: set back has a minimal effect on penetration, and then
Speaker 1: it opens up this cross cut so you get a
Speaker 1: much better blood trail, you know, more total cut, more
Speaker 1: total inches sliced, so bleeds out faster, quicker kill, more
Speaker 1: blood on the ground. So I'm a big fan of
Speaker 1: bleed years. For the first two years I didn't have any,
Speaker 1: and occasionally we would just get a very poor blood trail,
Speaker 1: like that single slice just can close up too easily.
Speaker 1: So I like having that cross cut. It kind of
Speaker 1: forces there to be an open hole to some degree.
Speaker 1: I've told this before, I think on this podcast, but
Speaker 1: I shot a magnus stinger into a cow elk maybe
Speaker 1: fifteen years ago, and it did great what I thought
Speaker 1: at first, because that like bone or rib, scapula and
Speaker 1: a rib on the way out complete passed through just
Speaker 1: like you know, you wouldn't hit it hit her anywhere else.
Speaker 1: Long story short, twenty four hours later, after the blood
Speaker 1: trail pretty much disappears, I'm just doing mercy loops and
Speaker 1: I find her. Um. She had gone a mile kind
Speaker 1: of in a circle, but she had fallen into this
Speaker 1: beaver pond, which was lucky for me because she was
Speaker 1: like completely preserved as ice cold. It's so funny gutting
Speaker 1: it gutting an animal story, but I don't know where where,
Speaker 1: like the guts are ice cold. You know. It was
Speaker 1: great for the netcrop because you could really see everything
Speaker 1: that happened, but exactly that it had gone through both
Speaker 1: lungs but had only had a cut on a single axis.
Speaker 1: And all the best I can figure is that that
Speaker 1: whole just it was she was the lungs were able
Speaker 1: to keep that whole together and not lose compression or
Speaker 1: lose was it towards like higher back like towards the
Speaker 1: back of the lungs the black lobes. Man, boy, I
Speaker 1: had to go look at the pictures, but I just
Speaker 1: tell you it was pretty much dead center if I
Speaker 1: can remember. I mean it was, but yeah, but it
Speaker 1: just yeah, she went. We bumped her like at least
Speaker 1: twice the first day, and then we just decided just
Speaker 1: you know, set up camp and sleep and go after
Speaker 1: it again in the morning. The blood just disappeared. You know,
Speaker 1: when I when I hear cases that the guy like
Speaker 1: got a double long shot, but the animal went a
Speaker 1: lot further than it should. I think one thing I've
Speaker 1: seen a lot with um like stainless steel, especially in
Speaker 1: I think mechanicals were there only hardening it to like rack. See,
Speaker 1: is it doesn't hold that edge very well, so it
Speaker 1: gets through hide. You really get through hot the hair
Speaker 1: and hide, and it's dull, and then you're pushing tissue apart,
Speaker 1: so you might poke a hole through and and I've
Speaker 1: done a little testing of this with with a friend
Speaker 1: through like organs and things that you can take a
Speaker 1: liver um saying and push a really sharp broad head
Speaker 1: through it like our um, like the iron Well broad head,
Speaker 1: and you get a complete cross cut that's exactly the
Speaker 1: size of the broadhead through there. And then you take
Speaker 1: a maybe a three blade um that has the blades
Speaker 1: have been dulled from the hide in the hair and
Speaker 1: push it through there and you get a you get
Speaker 1: a hole through it, but you won't get the blades
Speaker 1: to cut the tissue will just kind of push push aside.
Speaker 1: So that's another thing that it's kind of hard to
Speaker 1: measure UM for people when they're doing these different penetration tests,
Speaker 1: they don't really factor that in. But having that sharpness
Speaker 1: and edgey tension, so you're actually slicing tissue all the
Speaker 1: way through, you're cutting a lot more tissue that you're
Speaker 1: not pushing aside, and you get quicker kills for that.
Speaker 1: And I think that bigger hole through the lungs make
Speaker 1: some claps quicker um because you can have and you know,
Speaker 1: I've got a brother that's a pathologist, and I've talked
Speaker 1: to other doctors about this to try and understand, like,
Speaker 1: you know, what it takes to kill an animal, because
Speaker 1: I've seen if you hit an animal high and back
Speaker 1: in the lungs, they can take longer to die. There's
Speaker 1: just less stuff back there. Yeah, there's less bleeding going on.
Speaker 1: And you know, you can remove a lobe and somebody
Speaker 1: can still live right so, um, they can still kind
Speaker 1: of breathe in the front lobes, and I think it
Speaker 1: you need enough of a whole enough air to get
Speaker 1: in there to kind of collapse the lungs. And that's
Speaker 1: why sometimes people will see an animal go for minutes
Speaker 1: on a double lung shot. Um. And that's also the
Speaker 1: reason why I like to aim, you know, in that
Speaker 1: vital v close to the top of the heart lung
Speaker 1: area because it's you know, it's risky because those bones around,
Speaker 1: But if you've got the right broadhead that you can
Speaker 1: get through the bone, that's the quick kill. You know,
Speaker 1: that heart top of the heart lung area. It's like
Speaker 1: five seconds then animals dead and you know usually drop
Speaker 1: an in sight if you can hit closer there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Our buddy Cody Kellum from Born and Raised brought up
Speaker 1: a really good point. We were talking about this stuff
Speaker 1: at the First Light Hooting any last weekend, and he
Speaker 1: was saying, when he was a kid, his dad would
Speaker 1: make him sharpen his broadheads too, and they would take
Speaker 1: like remember when peep sites had that the tubing that
Speaker 1: would keep your peep site down. They would just stretch
Speaker 1: that not too tight. But he'd say, imagine that's an artery,
Speaker 1: and then see how much force it takes your broad
Speaker 1: head to cut that, Like does it just touch it
Speaker 1: and immediately it pops and cuts it, or do you
Speaker 1: have to slice that whole edge across it before it
Speaker 1: cuts right? And it's the same thing when that dull
Speaker 1: broadheads going through that animal. If it's not sharp, those
Speaker 1: arteries can just be literally just moving out of the
Speaker 1: way and it's going through it, but it's not doing
Speaker 1: any damage. And I saw that in the force testing
Speaker 1: I was doing that the so I was pushing on
Speaker 1: different broadhead designs and and a really sharp cut on
Speaker 1: contact to blade versus like a three point chill free
Speaker 1: blade chisel point, there will be about a five times
Speaker 1: difference in force to go through and it's really what
Speaker 1: focused me more on having a two blade on contact tip.
Speaker 1: What I'd see on the on the cheaper steels is
Speaker 1: that if I repeated the test pushed through hide and
Speaker 1: hide and muscle again, the forces going way up. So
Speaker 1: they dulled quickly and we're pushing more stuff aside. Let's uh,
Speaker 1: let's do this for a second. Tell me some things
Speaker 1: that like that you see people doing that you can
Speaker 1: just flat out say categorically that is stupid. Yeah, Like,
Speaker 1: there's no nothing, there's no like, there's no logical, reasonable
Speaker 1: whatever to support what you think is true. Like, for instance,
Speaker 1: I sawways believe I was I was raised to understand
Speaker 1: that pine squirrels castrated fox squirrels and gray squirrels, that
Speaker 1: they beat their nuts off. This though I still think
Speaker 1: it's true, I no longer know why because the academic
Speaker 1: community soundly is like, it's not a thing. It's not
Speaker 1: a thing. It's is not a thing. Okay, what are
Speaker 1: people doing that just has no backing? Um, well, this
Speaker 1: is this is the first thing that popped into my mind.
Speaker 1: It's it's kind of a bit of pet peeves everybody's doing.
Speaker 1: There's dozens of people doing broadhead testing out there like
Speaker 1: showing the penetration different broadheads and the shooting ballistic gel
Speaker 1: and go on. It's it's pretty worthless for I mean,
Speaker 1: I shoot it too. It's fun to shoot through it
Speaker 1: and look at it. But ballistics gel um, it's it's
Speaker 1: so freak. There's so much friction on the chaft stopping it.
Speaker 1: They'll test tend different broadheads and they'll have a variation
Speaker 1: of like an inch and they'll pick out a winner
Speaker 1: from that. And I've seen yeah, and I've seen two
Speaker 1: different broadheads that I know will have like a three
Speaker 1: times difference through a through an animal and they'll have
Speaker 1: the same penetration through ballistics gell. It's cool to look
Speaker 1: at it, um, and lots of guys are doing it,
Speaker 1: but it's pretty worthless. But let's explore that for a minute.
Speaker 1: Let's say I came to you and I was going
Speaker 1: to do a bow test. I was gonna do a
Speaker 1: broadhead test. We're just gonna shoot in the blocks of oak. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: and declare a winter. Would you say to yourself, Oh,
Speaker 1: if that's the case, I'm gonna go design a broadhead
Speaker 1: really good at shooting through a block of oak, exactly
Speaker 1: like I know a guy that did concrete block. You know,
Speaker 1: it was his test, right, that was a medium. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I told him, I can design a broadhead's gonna
Speaker 1: look do perfect for that. It's gonna look like a
Speaker 1: it's gonna look like this field point right here, you know,
Speaker 1: a hard and steel field point, and the blades will
Speaker 1: be set back so they never even hit the concrete,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna shoot it into there and you're gonna
Speaker 1: look at it and say, wow, this one didn't get
Speaker 1: damaged at all. This is the best broadhead. But if
Speaker 1: you know, a big chunk of steel in the front,
Speaker 1: big ball of steel, it's not going to be the
Speaker 1: best for penetrant. You're an animals. So it's so target appendant.
Speaker 1: And all these broadhead tests out there, maybe not shouldn't
Speaker 1: say all, but a large number of them are shooting
Speaker 1: through targets that don't apply to animals at all. You
Speaker 1: know what. One of the revelatory moment for me, and
Speaker 1: I still don't understand it is we were calling have
Speaker 1: Alena one time and they come in like if everything
Speaker 1: goes right, they come in like hot right, And in
Speaker 1: the heat of the moment, I accidentally grabbed a field
Speaker 1: point and shot one with it. And that thing you'd think,
Speaker 1: if you'd have asked me, I would have thought it
Speaker 1: would just zip right through it, right, because like, why not?
Speaker 1: There's no big old thing is trying to drag through it,
Speaker 1: like you just matched, it's gonna pencil it. That thing
Speaker 1: didn't do ship to that Hafler. Where'd you hit it?
Speaker 1: I can't even remember now. I just remember it ran off.
Speaker 1: You can see the arrow flopping in its side. But
Speaker 1: why did that not? Does go right? Like I would
Speaker 1: have thought it would just go right through them because
Speaker 1: there's no resistance of trying to pass a big broadhead
Speaker 1: through it. Yeah, I would have. I would have actually
Speaker 1: thought there's a chance it could go right through man.
Speaker 1: But it takes a lot of force to penetrate the
Speaker 1: high I don't know about a havling a hide, but
Speaker 1: it didn't bounce off. It just didn't. And maybe it
Speaker 1: was on bone, but I would have been, like my
Speaker 1: thing was, it would have zipped through it and you
Speaker 1: wouldn't maybe be hard to find because it wasn't bleeding
Speaker 1: or something like that. Yeah, I actually would have maybe
Speaker 1: guessed that too, that like can a field point penetrate
Speaker 1: to havling it probably, but it doesn't slice much, so
Speaker 1: not much bleeding and not a not a quick kill.
Speaker 1: But are you were doing that happen? Ye? I was nearby.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I was taking right next to you,
Speaker 1: but we were on the same trip. But you know
Speaker 1: that cone point really takes a lot of force to
Speaker 1: penetrate um, to penetrate high. So can you add that
Speaker 1: to things that you think people do that are stupid? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that would be up. There'll be up there. I actually
Speaker 1: had a customer say that he shot his last shot
Speaker 1: at his elk last year was a field point because
Speaker 1: that's what he had left and how did it do well?
Speaker 1: The elk died right then, but I told him it
Speaker 1: probably died from the other three you know arrows you
Speaker 1: had in it. It was it was, it was, you know,
Speaker 1: it was down. It was going to die anyway. But
Speaker 1: he said that when he shot his last he didn't
Speaker 1: realize as a field point until after he went over there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's for the heart, So you know that. That helps
Speaker 1: give me another one. Things you see in the archery
Speaker 1: community that just do not add up to scientific rigor
Speaker 1: foc extreme extreme foc. So because there's this whole thing
Speaker 1: like that the weighted shaft is pushing. No, it's actually pulling. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So there there's really not much scientific basis for that
Speaker 1: high or extreme FOC will increase penetration, you know, at
Speaker 1: least not at the basic level. So so Newton's second
Speaker 1: law motion four sequels mass times acceleration. As we said,
Speaker 1: you rearranged the you get force times time equals mass
Speaker 1: times velocity um. So that's momentum equals force times time.
Speaker 1: Momentum is a is a vector quantity. So it's in
Speaker 1: a straight it's in a straight line, has a direction
Speaker 1: to it. So this is probably the most basic way
Speaker 1: to calculate, you know, how far with this arrow penetrate
Speaker 1: through this animal is? What is that momentum at impact
Speaker 1: it's going to apply this force over time? FOC is
Speaker 1: not in there. So FOC is like where's the center
Speaker 1: of mass located in that arrow? And dr Ashby says
Speaker 1: that going from a nineteen to FOC will increased penetration
Speaker 1: by Okay, the physics wouldn't say that that's only changing
Speaker 1: the center of mass an inch forward. Okay, if that
Speaker 1: arrow is going in a straight line and that mass
Speaker 1: is all along that axis in a straight line going
Speaker 1: into the animal foc doesn't even enter into it. Okay,
Speaker 1: I I think that, you know, with him shooting a
Speaker 1: long bow, you know, a long bow has this archer's paradox.
Speaker 1: It's pretty extreme. You know, your your strings going towards
Speaker 1: the center of the riser, the arrows being mounted off,
Speaker 1: you know, sitting off to the side getting better arrow flight,
Speaker 1: and you need and you need a lot of point
Speaker 1: weight and fairly flexible, fairly low spine to get that
Speaker 1: thing up bend around the the riser and end up
Speaker 1: going straight at the targets. So you've got an excessive
Speaker 1: flexing of that arrow back and forth, and on a
Speaker 1: long bow, especially fifteen to twenty yard shots, I think
Speaker 1: bow tuning and arrow flight trumps everything. And I think
Speaker 1: that was his number two. He said perfect arrow flight,
Speaker 1: which you never really achieved. I don't think a long bow,
Speaker 1: but I think he recognized that arrow flights extremely important
Speaker 1: and it probably and I've talked to other traditional guys
Speaker 1: that are also scientists and do lot of testing, and
Speaker 1: they kind of say arrow bow tuning, arrow flight kind
Speaker 1: of trumps everything. If that arrow is not straight when
Speaker 1: it impacts, if it's bode way over um or if
Speaker 1: it's at some angle, it's really going to kill your penetration.
Speaker 1: That's because that momentum um, that mass times velocity in
Speaker 1: a straight line is what gives you that force times time.
Speaker 1: If it's not in a straight line, if it's bode
Speaker 1: back and forth or off to the side, you know
Speaker 1: you're you're gonna get very poor penetration. And so the
Speaker 1: heavy fo C or the FOC arrows are more um
Speaker 1: might be more forgiving if you have poorly tuned or
Speaker 1: wobbly arrows, but if it's if your ship straight, it
Speaker 1: ceases the matter as much. A lot of the times,
Speaker 1: I think they just correct themselves a lot quicker. You know,
Speaker 1: once you shoot with those heavy FOC arrows still get
Speaker 1: like a lot of flex in the shaft, but it's
Speaker 1: just that heavy gets itself into line. You've that bill. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they restore faster. I think that um there's
Speaker 1: a higher frequency of that bending back and forth. I
Speaker 1: think that with more point weight, the fletching gets steered
Speaker 1: straight or quicker. So I think that extreme high and
Speaker 1: extreme foc it was all about arrow flight for him,
Speaker 1: and I don't think so. I don't I think a
Speaker 1: lot of compound guys are applying it right now. It
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't really apply. Um. I just did some
Speaker 1: high speed video testing looking at my arrow coming off
Speaker 1: my bow a few weeks ago, and my my arrow
Speaker 1: barely flexes with my bows tuned. UM, And by tuned,
Speaker 1: I mean the knock is pushing, you know, the string
Speaker 1: is pushing the knock directly in line with the rest,
Speaker 1: So the arrows coming straight off the bow. It's not
Speaker 1: fish tailing right left, up or down. There's really minimal flexing,
Speaker 1: like you can barely see maybe a little bit of
Speaker 1: vertical flex but really that's interesting. Yeah, I barely see
Speaker 1: any um and that's why. And I get really good
Speaker 1: flight if I'm optimally spine, and I tested um a
Speaker 1: little weak optionally spine and a little overspined, and I
Speaker 1: was I was seeing kind of barely any flexing, so
Speaker 1: I was going very straight, you know, say a foot
Speaker 1: or a couple of feet off of the bow. Then
Speaker 1: I think FOC has a minimal effect. I think it's
Speaker 1: just mass time velocity in that straight line that gives
Speaker 1: you the penetration. And I'd see a ton of people. UM.
Speaker 1: I have friends that are customer looking at one right now,
Speaker 1: is Joe foc over here? Joe, I mean I don't
Speaker 1: think I actually don't think it. I don't think it hurts.
Speaker 1: I mean I don't think higher mass, higher FOC, you know,
Speaker 1: hurt anything other than trajectory. Um. And if you're shooting
Speaker 1: closer um. And I and I tell a lot of
Speaker 1: people this, you know, if you're if you're shooting closer
Speaker 1: range and you can get your bow to tune and shoot, well,
Speaker 1: go for it. The issue I see with it, and
Speaker 1: I know a number of customarial builders they'll have a
Speaker 1: customer come to them and say I gotta have twenty
Speaker 1: percent FOC and they'll say, well, um, I can get
Speaker 1: you there, but you're gonna be underspined, you know, really
Speaker 1: with your arrow and bow set up to get that high,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to put more point weight. We can't
Speaker 1: get an narrow spine, you know, because they don't make
Speaker 1: aero spines heavy enough to handle that. Right. Yeah, It's
Speaker 1: hard for me with a thirty straw to get foc.
Speaker 1: I've gotta have a lot of mass up there, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be probably underspined. And I see a lot
Speaker 1: of guys that choose the mass and the high foc
Speaker 1: over ero flight, and that's that's a big mistake, I think,
Speaker 1: and that's that's why I'd like people to to quit
Speaker 1: doing UM if you can get it all to work out,
Speaker 1: if you can get high mass, high foc and like
Speaker 1: perfect ero flight UM. And I think the best test
Speaker 1: for this for people out there, I mean a tune
Speaker 1: bow and an arrow, which means your arrows coming straight
Speaker 1: off your bow is really important for fixed broadheads to
Speaker 1: fly well and penetration. And the test I like to
Speaker 1: do is shoot a bear shaft. We can shoot through paper,
Speaker 1: you know, ten twelve feet or something. That's a that's
Speaker 1: a decent test, but say shoot at twenty to thirty
Speaker 1: yards with a bear shaft and a flat shaft. And
Speaker 1: I like to just take one of my arrows, cut
Speaker 1: the veins off so there, you know, eighth answer very short,
Speaker 1: so there's no really no vein to it. Maybe even
Speaker 1: wrap a piece of metal duct tape on it to
Speaker 1: get the weight the same in the back, you know,
Speaker 1: within within say five to ten grains, so it's going
Speaker 1: to act the same. And shoot those two together at
Speaker 1: at twenty yards and then maybe thirty yards what you'll
Speaker 1: see is, for instance, I'll take my bow out of
Speaker 1: tune to test test veins and how well they stabilize.
Speaker 1: And what I see is um if you're out of tune,
Speaker 1: if your arrows say tail right coming out of the bow,
Speaker 1: well you're you're fletched arrow might hit the bull's eye
Speaker 1: because even though it's going to tail right, the veins
Speaker 1: quickly correct it and straighten it out. Well, a bear
Speaker 1: shaft doesn't get corrected, so it stays a little tail
Speaker 1: right and it'll hit left, and you know, it will
Speaker 1: reveal the It'll show you that this arrow not coming
Speaker 1: straight out of the bow. And you know I was.
Speaker 1: I adjusted it until I was getting that bear shaft
Speaker 1: to hit a foot left at you know, forty yards.
Speaker 1: And then I was looking at different veins and different
Speaker 1: broadheads to see, like, which veins stabilized broadheads the best.
Speaker 1: You know, even though I was getting a bear shaft
Speaker 1: to hit a foot over with the right veins and
Speaker 1: are say, are r broadhead something that's relatively compact with
Speaker 1: the right veins, I could get field points and broadheads
Speaker 1: is still hit within a couple of inches at forty yards,
Speaker 1: But the bigger, wider broadheads you have, the more unstable
Speaker 1: it is or the more you need to correct it.
Speaker 1: And then those might be hitting five six inches well,
Speaker 1: five six inches off with small veins, but then if
Speaker 1: you had a taller, higher profile vein, I could pull
Speaker 1: those back into maybe a couple inches as well. So
Speaker 1: that's another area that I'm spending more time on and
Speaker 1: I think is really important is educating people on how
Speaker 1: to get fixed blade bride haas to fly well for him, um,
Speaker 1: because I think that's keeping some people, you know, shooting
Speaker 1: mechanicals because they can't get fixed has a shoe well
Speaker 1: for him. And they've yeah, they've made it so easy.
Speaker 1: And that's a big story that they used to sell those, right,
Speaker 1: is that those smaller heads they're easy to They shoot
Speaker 1: just like your field you Right, if you can't get
Speaker 1: if you can't get a relatively compact fixed blade head
Speaker 1: to shoot well for you, there's something wrong with your
Speaker 1: arrow flight. Yeah, your bows out of tune. Yeah, your
Speaker 1: bows out of tune. And even though the mechanical is
Speaker 1: going to hit closer to the field point, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of the tradeoff, you know, they're more forgiving, they're
Speaker 1: gonna hit closer to field points. You're both still awed,
Speaker 1: You're both still on t and your arrow And it
Speaker 1: might not just when we say bows out of tune.
Speaker 1: It might not just be that your bows not pushing
Speaker 1: your arrows straight. It could also be that you have
Speaker 1: the wrong arrow. You could be underspined. Yeah, yeah, real quick,
Speaker 1: this last question, we gotta wrap it up. Oh well,
Speaker 1: when I was like researching a bunch of this FOC
Speaker 1: stuff and trying to figure out what I wanted in
Speaker 1: my arrow set up, I kept running into that penetration
Speaker 1: penetration like over and over again, but nobody really justified why.
Speaker 1: But then I saw one article that was like, well,
Speaker 1: if you have a higher FOC, that means that you
Speaker 1: can shoot a stiffer spine because it will be able
Speaker 1: to like kind of break down that spine as it
Speaker 1: goes down range, just like that flex in it. But
Speaker 1: once it impacts, that stiffer spine will have all that
Speaker 1: energy like directly behind it, like so it won't like
Speaker 1: dissipate by wiggling a whole bunch once it comes in
Speaker 1: contact with the target. That was the only thing that
Speaker 1: I've ever seen that I was like, Okay, I think
Speaker 1: that like FOC and penetration makes a little bit of sense,
Speaker 1: but it seems like you don't think that, and I'm
Speaker 1: more inclined to defer to you there. I'm just wondering, Well, Um,
Speaker 1: the thing I like about FOC and I kind of
Speaker 1: like that wall up to sixteen percent range, is it
Speaker 1: is improved stability because it the center mass is kind
Speaker 1: of the pivot point. When you have let's say your
Speaker 1: arrow comes off a little bit um say tail low,
Speaker 1: and you've got this wind wind across the broad head
Speaker 1: that's going to create a little bit lift, and you've
Speaker 1: got this this wind across the veins that are gonna
Speaker 1: apply this restoring force, and the pivot points the center mass.
Speaker 1: So as you move that forward, you get more you know,
Speaker 1: you get better stability because the veins have a longer
Speaker 1: level arm and better UM. I think if you take
Speaker 1: that to an extreme, if you have low FOC to
Speaker 1: where you have a bunch of mass on the back,
Speaker 1: then I can see an issue that when you impact
Speaker 1: something that mass at the back, that arrow cann act
Speaker 1: you know more like more like a spring or or
Speaker 1: if it's not perfectly centered, that mass can pull it
Speaker 1: off to the side. Um. So I think there can
Speaker 1: be something a little bit to that, but I don't
Speaker 1: think you know, changing that center mass point by by
Speaker 1: a half inch or an inch, that's that's what we're
Speaker 1: really talking about as that big of an effect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was saying word because like you and you're able
Speaker 1: to increase the spine when it hits like you would
Speaker 1: have everything just piling up sort of behind that rather
Speaker 1: than like a low or a high flex sort of
Speaker 1: spine like a four hundred spine or something. Where it
Speaker 1: hits it, it's gonna go like a doorstop kind of
Speaker 1: before it goes in. Yeah, I think, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: all comes down to that keeping the momentum in the
Speaker 1: straight line. So if you have if your arrow is
Speaker 1: going straight at impact, you've got that more mass up
Speaker 1: front um, it's going to be better than more mass
Speaker 1: at the back, because I was say, it's probably gonna
Speaker 1: be more likely to stay in that straight line versus
Speaker 1: having mass at the back that might that might take
Speaker 1: it off course a little bit. That's how I would
Speaker 1: look at it. Okay, I got three more questions. Are
Speaker 1: you playing trivia with us if you want me to,
Speaker 1: because there's one question too, how do you think you'll do?
Speaker 1: Probably not, well, don't He'll throw your bone. I'll suarantee
Speaker 1: he'll throw your bone. Never do not me the guy
Speaker 1: that hosts Spencer, he'll throw you out like a mechanical
Speaker 1: engineering question. But he won't do anything like that for me.
Speaker 1: Third questions, how do people find? You know? How do
Speaker 1: people find so they can check out? You don't advertise
Speaker 1: the whole hell of a lot. You're most like a
Speaker 1: word of mouth kind of thing. We've been a lot
Speaker 1: of word of mouth. Yeah, we don't do spend a
Speaker 1: lot on marketing. Um, spend most of the time on engineering,
Speaker 1: but um, iron Wall Outfitters is our website, iron Well
Speaker 1: off Fitters dot com. We're on Instagram, Facebook, things like
Speaker 1: that too. YouTube channel, Oh yeah, okay, yeah, we're trying
Speaker 1: to show I need to get on here to find
Speaker 1: out how to sharp my broadheads. You said you got
Speaker 1: a good video about it. We do have a video
Speaker 1: on there. Yeah. And I'm gonna try and do more
Speaker 1: this next year to kind of educate you know, the
Speaker 1: science of bow hunting and try and um, yeah, get
Speaker 1: more knowledge there. That's great. Yeah, all right, trying to
Speaker 1: think how you can do in trivia? What do you
Speaker 1: think I can't believe you're not gonna let us talk
Speaker 1: about single bevel like I want to spend like one
Speaker 1: spend a minute on it, one minute, ask you a question,
Speaker 1: you know, five minutes talk Phil. I'm not even gonna
Speaker 1: look at Phil right now. I wouldn't. Okay, let's go,
Speaker 1: let's do it. I don't have you make both offitters,
Speaker 1: make single bevel and double bevel broadheads. Yeah, maybe just
Speaker 1: a quick rundown pros and cons. Yeah, so I don't
Speaker 1: care which which one you want to pick. I I've
Speaker 1: got a I've got a dog in both fights. So
Speaker 1: it's it's um. This is just my personal um testing
Speaker 1: and what I've found, you know, initially like double bevel better.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's inherently a bit stronger UM. That
Speaker 1: combination of sharpness and strength is a bit higher there
Speaker 1: because you have equal pressure on both sides and it's
Speaker 1: driving through something. And what I saw with single bevel,
Speaker 1: with all that pressure on one side one bevel, you're
Speaker 1: more likely to want to bend that edge or break
Speaker 1: out that edge. And I've seen have personal experience that
Speaker 1: corroborates that, and I've talked to people that shoot a
Speaker 1: lot of single bevels and that is a known thing
Speaker 1: and nobody because you're getting full pass these A lot
Speaker 1: of times you don't know if it's happening in the animal,
Speaker 1: if it's happening in the dirt, but you see a
Speaker 1: lot of times. It's interesting too that it's only on
Speaker 1: one of the two blades, but you have some very
Speaker 1: like extreme waving, nous corruption whatever you want to chinking
Speaker 1: or chipping out edge or just bending right. And I
Speaker 1: saw that and that's why I was more of a
Speaker 1: double bebel guy for years UM and it was really
Speaker 1: through a lot of customers asking pushing forward that a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago I started. I started thinking, well,
Speaker 1: I've only tested other single bevels, you know against my
Speaker 1: broadhead that's got a better steel, better sharpness, so I
Speaker 1: really should make one the best I can and test it.
Speaker 1: And I still saw the issue when I was done
Speaker 1: at twenty five degrees, and I talked to dr Ashby
Speaker 1: actually got his input on single bebel designs, and he like,
Speaker 1: he likes single bevel um at five degrees, and I
Speaker 1: feel like, I feel like some of us testing was
Speaker 1: found it. He had a shallower total angle as well
Speaker 1: as a single bevel, so it was a bit sharper too.
Speaker 1: But anyways, I found that hive degree single bevel wasn't
Speaker 1: as strong as our nineteen degree per side or thirty
Speaker 1: eight degree total double bevel, and I had to go
Speaker 1: up to thirty two degrees until I got to the
Speaker 1: point where it, um, it wasn't getting damaged on just
Speaker 1: heavy bone impact. Um. The cool thing about it is
Speaker 1: they create rotation. So if you as they impact that animal,
Speaker 1: let's say you your right flesh and your arrows rotating
Speaker 1: right when you hit that animal with the pressure on
Speaker 1: that bevel is gonna push when to push that bevel over.
Speaker 1: So let's say your top one gets pushed right in,
Speaker 1: your bottom one gets pushed left, and it's going to
Speaker 1: rotate or continue that rotation through the animals. So what
Speaker 1: does that makes sense? Steve? I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: good or bad. Why single bevel rotates through the medium?
Speaker 1: I mean, try it. If you got a single bevel knife,
Speaker 1: try to cut a piece of cheese street and you're
Speaker 1: gonna drive a positive or negative. Well, I've kind of
Speaker 1: felt it was a negative because it's going to take
Speaker 1: more energy, It's not gonna slice through the path is longer, right, right. Um,
Speaker 1: what I what I find is that the positives are
Speaker 1: is that what the hole looks like, you know, the
Speaker 1: entrance hole, especially with our so I make a single
Speaker 1: balble with single bubble bleeders, so the bleaders have that
Speaker 1: ground on that single balbble ground on them too. In
Speaker 1: that rotation, I often get holes through the high that
Speaker 1: looked like a square versus um are double bobble. It's
Speaker 1: more like a you know, a T shape or cross
Speaker 1: shape because it's just slicing straight in, whereas that cutting
Speaker 1: while rotating. So I think the advantages um are that
Speaker 1: the holes can be a bit more open and maybe
Speaker 1: a bit more trauma, you know, as it's cutting through things.
Speaker 1: I feel like the momentum, that rotational momentum of the
Speaker 1: arrow already at impact provides some of that maybe additional
Speaker 1: energy it takes to rotate. So you know, I shot
Speaker 1: my elk with a single bubble last year had great,
Speaker 1: great penetration. Um. What I'm seeing is they both penetrate
Speaker 1: really well, they both perform really well, they both breach,
Speaker 1: they both split bone really well. And that's something dr
Speaker 1: Ashby said, is that only single bevel um splits bone. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe it's because we are at a different energy level.
Speaker 1: But I see that they both are really pop bone
Speaker 1: and split bone apart, really kind of equally well, so performances,
Speaker 1: amount of force you're saying, yeah, very similar. Um Anyway,
Speaker 1: I I think they both worked well. I think what's
Speaker 1: more important is having hard, very sharp edges, good edge retension,
Speaker 1: and have the blades tough enough to be able to
Speaker 1: hit bone and keep going. Thank you for that, Phil,
Speaker 1: Thank you for giving me those extra few minutes was
Speaker 1: my pleasure. Definitely my call. Alright, Iron Will Outfitters. Yes,
Speaker 1: go check out the Broadheads. Check them out. I need
Speaker 1: to show you the bore who I shot through the
Speaker 1: forehead phone of your broadheads. You might like the hole
Speaker 1: in there? Did you? Was that in self defense? Okay? No,
Speaker 1: you said it was coming back at you, so no, no, No,
Speaker 1: he was after I shot a prig prior and that
Speaker 1: pig was raising a ruckus in it called in the board.
Speaker 1: I've seen that before. Yeah, he was real worked up.
Speaker 1: He liked what he was hearing. All right, let's move on.
Speaker 1: Let's let's turn it off so that I can just
Speaker 1: ask him some off air questions. You feel like you
Speaker 1: feel like sticking around good night, everybody you feel like
Speaker 1: stick around. Phil will continue to record the conversation. Thanks
Speaker 1: are using a jake too and then on sand paper
Speaker 1: or I just retained really well so you can shoot.
Speaker 1: If you shoot ten times in a target, I can't
Speaker 1: even measure it difference. So he really a lot of
Speaker 1: times target shooting. Right now, I'll just take a white
Speaker 1: plas don't white as true.