1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:26,784 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The story of the week is Hawaii's Crazy War 2 00:00:26,984 --> 00:00:31,224 Speaker 1: over Zombie Cats by Paul Cavinta. It was published in 3 00:00:31,344 --> 00:00:45,104 Speaker 1: Outside magazine. This is an animal murder mystery, which I 4 00:00:45,144 --> 00:00:49,224 Speaker 1: mentioned because I know that podcasts about murder do really well. Specifically, 5 00:00:49,504 --> 00:00:54,064 Speaker 1: it's a story about feral cats. The articles called Hawaii's 6 00:00:54,224 --> 00:00:58,264 Speaker 1: Crazy War over Zombie Cats, and the first thing it 7 00:00:58,304 --> 00:01:03,624 Speaker 1: taught me is that cats are genocidal, and like genocides 8 00:01:03,744 --> 00:01:06,584 Speaker 1: before them, not only did they murder with their claws, 9 00:01:07,224 --> 00:01:10,384 Speaker 1: but they also spread a deadly disasse that somehow doesn't 10 00:01:10,384 --> 00:01:16,224 Speaker 1: affect them. Cats are white people, and like white people, 11 00:01:17,064 --> 00:01:20,424 Speaker 1: man do they love Hawaii. As we learn from HBO's 12 00:01:20,424 --> 00:01:24,904 Speaker 1: White Lotus, white people coming to Hawaii causes all kinds attention. 13 00:01:25,664 --> 00:01:28,544 Speaker 1: The Hawaiian feral cats have led to this battle between 14 00:01:28,664 --> 00:01:33,824 Speaker 1: two really different types of animal lovers, cat people and conservationists. 15 00:01:34,304 --> 00:01:37,344 Speaker 1: And the side that you take tells a lot about 16 00:01:37,384 --> 00:01:41,264 Speaker 1: how you love nature with your brain or with your heart, 17 00:01:42,184 --> 00:01:54,824 Speaker 1: and which one's more dangerous. Writing is hard. Who's got 18 00:01:54,864 --> 00:01:58,104 Speaker 1: that kind of time when you're already busy trying to 19 00:01:58,184 --> 00:02:01,384 Speaker 1: be Joe stand So it turns on a mic. Maybe 20 00:02:01,384 --> 00:02:04,864 Speaker 1: it twiddles enough because a journalist frand who's got in 21 00:02:04,984 --> 00:02:10,504 Speaker 1: that dual job out of single storage, listening to smart people, 22 00:02:10,584 --> 00:02:26,664 Speaker 1: speaking conversation, filming information. Is a story Hawaii's Crazy War 23 00:02:26,864 --> 00:02:29,584 Speaker 1: over Zombie cats, And yes, I just like saying. That 24 00:02:30,304 --> 00:02:33,264 Speaker 1: was written by Paul Kvinta, who's a contributing editor at 25 00:02:33,264 --> 00:02:36,824 Speaker 1: Outside Magazine, and he did what every journalist I've ever 26 00:02:36,864 --> 00:02:40,064 Speaker 1: met does, pitched a story that evolves going to Hawaii. 27 00:02:40,664 --> 00:02:44,584 Speaker 1: I've pulled it off four times. Not to brack, Okay, 28 00:02:44,584 --> 00:02:48,064 Speaker 1: to brack. We'll get to the cats soon. But Paul's 29 00:02:48,104 --> 00:02:51,904 Speaker 1: cat mystery starts at the clue the Hawaiian conservationists found 30 00:02:51,944 --> 00:02:57,264 Speaker 1: in a totally different animal. There's a marine biologist, Michelle Barbieri, 31 00:02:57,584 --> 00:03:01,584 Speaker 1: and one of her jobs is to you know, monitor 32 00:03:01,704 --> 00:03:06,064 Speaker 1: and look after endangered wildlife, of which there's a ton 33 00:03:06,144 --> 00:03:10,984 Speaker 1: of that in Hawaii. For her, it's marine mammals, and 34 00:03:11,744 --> 00:03:15,344 Speaker 1: the Hawaiian monk seal is a super endangered species. There's 35 00:03:15,464 --> 00:03:17,704 Speaker 1: less than fifteen hundred of them left on the planet. 36 00:03:18,144 --> 00:03:20,344 Speaker 1: What do these animals look like. I've never seen one. 37 00:03:20,544 --> 00:03:24,544 Speaker 1: There's sort of these gray torpedo shaped creatures, you know, 38 00:03:24,664 --> 00:03:28,864 Speaker 1: kind of a kind of narrow but they're also sort 39 00:03:28,904 --> 00:03:32,264 Speaker 1: of fat and blubbery, like a fat dolphin, like a 40 00:03:32,304 --> 00:03:37,784 Speaker 1: porpoise exactly, a fat, slow porpoise exactly. And there had 41 00:03:37,824 --> 00:03:41,984 Speaker 1: been a spate of at first seemingly mysterious deaths of 42 00:03:42,704 --> 00:03:47,264 Speaker 1: these seals. She has tagged many of them, and what 43 00:03:47,424 --> 00:03:50,824 Speaker 1: she was discovering was that there was this protozoa called 44 00:03:51,064 --> 00:03:55,744 Speaker 1: toxoplasmosis that was getting into the tissues of these creatures 45 00:03:55,744 --> 00:03:59,224 Speaker 1: and causing this really terrible swelling, and then a week 46 00:03:59,304 --> 00:04:02,664 Speaker 1: or two later the animal would die. Okay, this is 47 00:04:02,664 --> 00:04:05,184 Speaker 1: that part in CSI or A Law and Order where 48 00:04:05,184 --> 00:04:07,704 Speaker 1: the cops brand clue to the lab and then some 49 00:04:07,824 --> 00:04:10,464 Speaker 1: nerds says, would you like for me to explain to 50 00:04:10,504 --> 00:04:13,104 Speaker 1: you about this? Would you like for me to explain 51 00:04:13,144 --> 00:04:16,024 Speaker 1: to you about about this protozoa more specifically, where it 52 00:04:16,064 --> 00:04:18,224 Speaker 1: comes from, how it reproduces. No one's ever asked me 53 00:04:18,304 --> 00:04:24,064 Speaker 1: that question in my entire life, but but yes, desperately so, 54 00:04:24,104 --> 00:04:27,304 Speaker 1: the taxoplasmosis protozoa. How long did it take you to 55 00:04:27,344 --> 00:04:29,904 Speaker 1: learn to say that? I still can't say it. That 56 00:04:29,984 --> 00:04:37,624 Speaker 1: was great. It reproduces in the gut of felines, so 57 00:04:37,824 --> 00:04:41,264 Speaker 1: any any of the cat species and that's the only 58 00:04:41,304 --> 00:04:45,384 Speaker 1: place it reproduces. I'm not sure why, but it reproduces 59 00:04:45,424 --> 00:04:48,904 Speaker 1: there and then the cat poops it out in the 60 00:04:48,944 --> 00:04:51,464 Speaker 1: form of something called an ocyst, which is a little 61 00:04:51,664 --> 00:04:59,024 Speaker 1: teeny tiny thing, and subsequently rats mice will eat this. Now, 62 00:04:59,024 --> 00:05:04,704 Speaker 1: the fascinating thing here is that once a rat consumes 63 00:05:04,984 --> 00:05:08,184 Speaker 1: one of these protozoa in the cat poop, it kind 64 00:05:08,184 --> 00:05:11,744 Speaker 1: of zombiefi is the rat such that suddenly the rat 65 00:05:12,224 --> 00:05:14,944 Speaker 1: is not fearful of cats at all. It's just amazing. 66 00:05:15,344 --> 00:05:18,344 Speaker 1: And so there's been reports of rats eating poop that 67 00:05:18,424 --> 00:05:20,984 Speaker 1: has taxoplasmos is in it, and suddenly all they want 68 00:05:21,024 --> 00:05:23,384 Speaker 1: to do is roll around in cat yarn. Well, obviously 69 00:05:23,384 --> 00:05:26,064 Speaker 1: this makes it easy for the cat to then kill 70 00:05:26,144 --> 00:05:29,144 Speaker 1: and consume the rat. Finding out that taxo from cat 71 00:05:29,184 --> 00:05:32,864 Speaker 1: poop was killing the endangered monk seals wasn't the first 72 00:05:32,904 --> 00:05:37,344 Speaker 1: time Hawaiian biologists worried about cats. Taxos just like one 73 00:05:37,744 --> 00:05:42,024 Speaker 1: arrow and cats quiver of animal murdering weaponry. Cats aren't 74 00:05:42,064 --> 00:05:44,904 Speaker 1: native to Hawaii at all. A few reached the islands 75 00:05:44,944 --> 00:05:49,184 Speaker 1: with Europeans, but like so many visitors to Hawaii, they 76 00:05:49,224 --> 00:05:52,264 Speaker 1: had a lot of sex, so much so that by 77 00:05:52,424 --> 00:05:57,784 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty six, Mark Twain described Honolulu as having companies 78 00:05:57,784 --> 00:06:02,104 Speaker 1: of cats, regiments of cats, armies of cats, multitudes of cats, 79 00:06:02,464 --> 00:06:05,624 Speaker 1: millions of cats like me. I think he was paid 80 00:06:05,624 --> 00:06:08,664 Speaker 1: by the word. And as cute as they look, cats 81 00:06:08,664 --> 00:06:13,584 Speaker 1: are actually cold, bloody killers. They kill for sport. They're 82 00:06:13,584 --> 00:06:17,224 Speaker 1: just like smaller versions of lions and tigers. To see 83 00:06:17,224 --> 00:06:21,424 Speaker 1: what cats actually do, scientists placed a motion activated video 84 00:06:21,464 --> 00:06:25,144 Speaker 1: camera in this inaccessible part of Kawaii, outside the burrow 85 00:06:25,224 --> 00:06:29,344 Speaker 1: of an endangered bird called the Newell sheerwater. In the footage, 86 00:06:29,384 --> 00:06:32,224 Speaker 1: you see these tabby cats and other kinds of cats 87 00:06:32,544 --> 00:06:37,064 Speaker 1: slinking into these burrows, just ripping these birds apart. At 88 00:06:37,104 --> 00:06:40,184 Speaker 1: one point, the cat looks at the camera with blood 89 00:06:40,264 --> 00:06:44,504 Speaker 1: dripping down its mouth, sort of light you know, the cats, 90 00:06:44,664 --> 00:06:46,504 Speaker 1: you know, saying yeah, what the fuck are you gonna 91 00:06:46,544 --> 00:06:49,344 Speaker 1: do about it? You know? So it's like a horror 92 00:06:49,344 --> 00:06:54,344 Speaker 1: movie exactly. The obvious solution to this claw wielding, taxo 93 00:06:54,384 --> 00:06:58,144 Speaker 1: spewing serial killer would beat to capture and kill stray 94 00:06:58,224 --> 00:07:02,544 Speaker 1: cats to save the birds and the seals. But this 95 00:07:02,584 --> 00:07:05,464 Speaker 1: is where the cat lovers come in. Cat people aren't 96 00:07:05,544 --> 00:07:09,944 Speaker 1: bird hating dicks. They totally understand this is a problem. 97 00:07:09,984 --> 00:07:12,824 Speaker 1: So they came up with this really impressive, elegant solution 98 00:07:13,224 --> 00:07:16,864 Speaker 1: that saves both the birds and the cats. It's an 99 00:07:17,104 --> 00:07:20,304 Speaker 1: enormous amount of work, but cat people are more than 100 00:07:20,344 --> 00:07:24,864 Speaker 1: willing to serve their cat overlords. It's called trap, neuter 101 00:07:25,104 --> 00:07:30,344 Speaker 1: and Return and it involves grabbing a feral cat, fixing it, 102 00:07:30,904 --> 00:07:33,544 Speaker 1: dropping it back in the woods, and keeping it fed. 103 00:07:33,984 --> 00:07:37,544 Speaker 1: About two hundred and fifty thousand cat lovers in the 104 00:07:37,664 --> 00:07:42,144 Speaker 1: US are doing this on a regular basis as a hobby. 105 00:07:42,264 --> 00:07:45,624 Speaker 1: It's gotten so popular that people just call it TNR. 106 00:07:46,424 --> 00:07:49,784 Speaker 1: It sounds like friendly accessible, something that could be hosted 107 00:07:49,784 --> 00:07:55,784 Speaker 1: by Carson Dali. Trap Neuter and Return TNR was supposed 108 00:07:55,824 --> 00:07:58,504 Speaker 1: to put conservationists and cat lovers on the same team. 109 00:07:58,624 --> 00:08:00,744 Speaker 1: It does seem like a good plan. And who wants 110 00:08:00,784 --> 00:08:05,464 Speaker 1: to kill cats? The people who are for TNR, they 111 00:08:05,464 --> 00:08:07,504 Speaker 1: don't want to see cats kill, So let's don't bring 112 00:08:07,544 --> 00:08:10,464 Speaker 1: these animals in. Let's keep them on the landscape. They'll 113 00:08:10,504 --> 00:08:12,984 Speaker 1: be harmless, they won't hurt anything. And that's the theory 114 00:08:13,064 --> 00:08:16,144 Speaker 1: behind TNR. And there are tons of people doing TNR 115 00:08:16,424 --> 00:08:18,424 Speaker 1: as a part of their life, like a big part 116 00:08:18,424 --> 00:08:20,744 Speaker 1: of their life. You talk about this one woman who 117 00:08:20,864 --> 00:08:23,264 Speaker 1: So you go to a park in Oahu where you 118 00:08:23,344 --> 00:08:25,704 Speaker 1: hear there's a ton of feril cats, and there are 119 00:08:25,784 --> 00:08:27,704 Speaker 1: and you see a woman in a car who's kind 120 00:08:27,744 --> 00:08:30,664 Speaker 1: of reluctant to talk to you. But when you mentioned TNR, 121 00:08:30,744 --> 00:08:33,624 Speaker 1: she kind of opens up. I'm looking for the quote. 122 00:08:33,664 --> 00:08:37,984 Speaker 1: For fifteen years, she practiced TNR regularly and quit only recently. 123 00:08:38,584 --> 00:08:41,504 Speaker 1: She had to. She was spending three hundred dollars a 124 00:08:41,544 --> 00:08:44,944 Speaker 1: month on pet food. Her traps cost ninety dollars a piece. 125 00:08:45,824 --> 00:08:47,904 Speaker 1: She kept thinking that if she could just trap one 126 00:08:47,944 --> 00:08:51,504 Speaker 1: more cat, her work would be done. But there's never 127 00:08:51,544 --> 00:08:56,144 Speaker 1: just one more. Her partner financed everything. After a while, 128 00:08:56,144 --> 00:08:59,104 Speaker 1: he couldn't pay the mortgage. She says, we lost the house. 129 00:08:59,704 --> 00:09:02,144 Speaker 1: He moved into a condo. We thought we would lose 130 00:09:02,184 --> 00:09:05,384 Speaker 1: the condo too, unless we pulled ourselves together. All the 131 00:09:05,424 --> 00:09:09,384 Speaker 1: money was going to the cats. And yet she still 132 00:09:09,384 --> 00:09:15,984 Speaker 1: out there doing it. Yeah, did she seem nuts? Not? 133 00:09:16,104 --> 00:09:19,464 Speaker 1: Really she was. She was soft spoken, she was kind 134 00:09:19,504 --> 00:09:22,264 Speaker 1: of talking and sort of almost presenting herself as a 135 00:09:22,304 --> 00:09:26,944 Speaker 1: recovering addict, you know, And but she still couldn't quite 136 00:09:26,944 --> 00:09:30,064 Speaker 1: give it up. Kind of like you like that, I 137 00:09:30,464 --> 00:09:32,504 Speaker 1: can't really, I'm not a real animal person, but it 138 00:09:32,584 --> 00:09:37,344 Speaker 1: must be thrilling to like basically saving animal lives, like 139 00:09:37,384 --> 00:09:41,984 Speaker 1: it must feel amazing. Yeah. The problem, however, is that 140 00:09:42,344 --> 00:09:47,064 Speaker 1: trap neuter return doesn't work like so many elegant but 141 00:09:47,304 --> 00:09:50,864 Speaker 1: theoretical solutions, the complexities of the real world get in 142 00:09:50,944 --> 00:09:55,544 Speaker 1: the way. In thirty years of practice, trap neuter return 143 00:09:55,904 --> 00:10:01,744 Speaker 1: hasn't eliminated a single feral cat colony anywhere. That's because 144 00:10:01,744 --> 00:10:04,824 Speaker 1: when people's cats have a litter, some of these bastards 145 00:10:04,864 --> 00:10:08,064 Speaker 1: put the cats in their car, drive off into the forest, 146 00:10:08,504 --> 00:10:11,744 Speaker 1: drop them off, and pretend wonderful things they're going to 147 00:10:11,824 --> 00:10:15,104 Speaker 1: happen to their cats. I blame that horrible Andrew Lloyd 148 00:10:15,184 --> 00:10:19,184 Speaker 1: Webber musical. So, say you have a colony of ten 149 00:10:19,264 --> 00:10:23,864 Speaker 1: cats that a TNR person is watching after that colony 150 00:10:23,944 --> 00:10:26,144 Speaker 1: is going to grow, even if all those cats are neutered, 151 00:10:26,344 --> 00:10:29,024 Speaker 1: because you know, people are dumping cats and those cats 152 00:10:29,024 --> 00:10:32,464 Speaker 1: are attracted to the food. And scientists have shown, and 153 00:10:32,504 --> 00:10:35,944 Speaker 1: there was this one case study in Florida that the 154 00:10:35,984 --> 00:10:39,544 Speaker 1: colony did not decrease, in fact, it increased, and that 155 00:10:40,104 --> 00:10:42,864 Speaker 1: people dump the cats because they saw that colony is 156 00:10:42,864 --> 00:10:46,024 Speaker 1: giving them permission to I don't want my cat anymore. 157 00:10:46,024 --> 00:10:47,944 Speaker 1: I'm going to dump it. Oh they're taking care of 158 00:10:48,024 --> 00:10:50,064 Speaker 1: cats on the landscape over here. I'm just going to 159 00:10:50,144 --> 00:10:53,984 Speaker 1: dump it there. So that's the logical, scientific reason against TNR. 160 00:10:54,344 --> 00:10:57,904 Speaker 1: And it's so compelling that even PETA, the group that 161 00:10:57,984 --> 00:11:01,704 Speaker 1: loves animals most in this whole world, is against trap 162 00:11:01,944 --> 00:11:05,784 Speaker 1: neuter return. But cat people do not want to hear this. 163 00:11:06,784 --> 00:11:10,504 Speaker 1: And when cat people get put in the corner, oh, 164 00:11:10,544 --> 00:11:15,224 Speaker 1: their claws come out. Our cat people among the most 165 00:11:15,264 --> 00:11:20,664 Speaker 1: passionate people in the world. Ferocious, Yeah, for sure. So 166 00:11:20,864 --> 00:11:25,344 Speaker 1: the tiny, gorgeous placid island of Kawaii becomes the center 167 00:11:25,424 --> 00:11:29,344 Speaker 1: of this weird fight between two very different types of 168 00:11:29,384 --> 00:11:35,344 Speaker 1: animal lovers, Team Endangered Species and Team Cat, which will 169 00:11:35,424 --> 00:11:41,584 Speaker 1: lead to threats involving guns, legislation, and of course cat sebows. 170 00:11:42,184 --> 00:11:53,184 Speaker 1: All that after the break. Welcome back. We'll pause here 171 00:11:53,184 --> 00:11:56,504 Speaker 1: if you want to make some more purchases from the sponsor. Okay, 172 00:11:56,904 --> 00:12:00,344 Speaker 1: now back to our story. I've been to Kwaii three times. 173 00:12:01,344 --> 00:12:04,344 Speaker 1: It's an island with about seventy thousand people living there, 174 00:12:04,784 --> 00:12:06,744 Speaker 1: and the road doesn't even go all the way around 175 00:12:06,744 --> 00:12:10,304 Speaker 1: the islands. A lot of it's completely inaccessible. But when 176 00:12:10,304 --> 00:12:13,704 Speaker 1: you're there, you feel the tension between untouched nature and 177 00:12:13,864 --> 00:12:18,064 Speaker 1: super rich people. The native Hawaiians are furious, for instance, 178 00:12:18,384 --> 00:12:21,464 Speaker 1: that Mark Zuckerberg built a mega mansion on the island. 179 00:12:22,144 --> 00:12:26,584 Speaker 1: The fight between nature and wealth exploded oddly in this 180 00:12:26,624 --> 00:12:29,504 Speaker 1: fight over cats. Now in the story, the cat people 181 00:12:29,544 --> 00:12:33,984 Speaker 1: are populous, They love their pets like normal people. Sure 182 00:12:34,104 --> 00:12:36,464 Speaker 1: they might have money, but like so many fights of 183 00:12:36,504 --> 00:12:39,464 Speaker 1: our times, they pit themselves against a group who could 184 00:12:39,504 --> 00:12:44,304 Speaker 1: be seen as elites. Those here are the environmentalists. They're 185 00:12:44,304 --> 00:12:48,744 Speaker 1: in academia, government, and the media. They write long stories 186 00:12:48,784 --> 00:12:53,864 Speaker 1: for Outside magazine and listen to podcasts, and like elites everywhere, 187 00:12:54,264 --> 00:12:57,264 Speaker 1: they're telling people something they really don't want to hear. 188 00:12:58,144 --> 00:13:02,664 Speaker 1: They're social justice warriors fighting the cats on behalf of 189 00:13:02,704 --> 00:13:09,384 Speaker 1: obscure bird species. When I arrived to Kauai, Kauai put 190 00:13:09,424 --> 00:13:12,424 Speaker 1: together this task force, and the task force was to 191 00:13:12,464 --> 00:13:15,544 Speaker 1: sort of study the problem, you know, how much were 192 00:13:15,584 --> 00:13:19,544 Speaker 1: these feral cats damage, were they causing, etc. Etc. And 193 00:13:19,584 --> 00:13:21,984 Speaker 1: then there was a subcommittee of that task force that 194 00:13:22,064 --> 00:13:24,624 Speaker 1: was supposed to come up with, you know, a bill 195 00:13:25,064 --> 00:13:28,904 Speaker 1: or a legislation. They were in the middle of that 196 00:13:29,024 --> 00:13:32,664 Speaker 1: when I showed up in Hawaii, and basically all hell 197 00:13:32,744 --> 00:13:35,744 Speaker 1: was breaking loose over this effort to do something about 198 00:13:35,744 --> 00:13:37,624 Speaker 1: this problem between the sort of the cat people and 199 00:13:37,664 --> 00:13:41,744 Speaker 1: the wildlife people. This subcommittee of a task force gets 200 00:13:41,864 --> 00:13:45,304 Speaker 1: really ugly. It centers around a man with the most 201 00:13:45,384 --> 00:13:48,464 Speaker 1: cat love in his heart in all of Hawaii. His 202 00:13:48,584 --> 00:13:52,184 Speaker 1: name's Basil Scott, and he and his wife Sue are 203 00:13:52,184 --> 00:13:57,744 Speaker 1: of course trap neuter return enthusiasts. When this woman who's 204 00:13:57,784 --> 00:14:00,984 Speaker 1: the cat loving head of Kawaii's local cat group, showed 205 00:14:00,984 --> 00:14:04,584 Speaker 1: just a little bit of wiggle room about allowing some 206 00:14:04,824 --> 00:14:09,144 Speaker 1: euthanasia at shelters in some cases, Basil turned out her 207 00:14:09,224 --> 00:14:13,704 Speaker 1: until she left the group. Then Basil took over Kawai's 208 00:14:13,744 --> 00:14:17,704 Speaker 1: cat organizations. It was a cat coup. So he's on 209 00:14:17,784 --> 00:14:22,624 Speaker 1: this committee with scientists and environmentalists and he's just completely 210 00:14:23,384 --> 00:14:25,864 Speaker 1: butting heads with him at every possible turn. You know, 211 00:14:25,904 --> 00:14:29,464 Speaker 1: he gives no ground. It's TNR TNR, T and R works, 212 00:14:29,504 --> 00:14:32,184 Speaker 1: T and R works. I just want to to point 213 00:14:32,184 --> 00:14:35,824 Speaker 1: out that Basil and Sue, this husband and wife team 214 00:14:35,864 --> 00:14:39,984 Speaker 1: are so intense and so extreme that it surprised me 215 00:14:40,664 --> 00:14:42,944 Speaker 1: when I saw a photo of them, and when I 216 00:14:43,024 --> 00:14:46,704 Speaker 1: learned about like his backgrounds. They look like, yes, the 217 00:14:46,944 --> 00:14:50,704 Speaker 1: nicest hippies, like rich hippies and Kawaii just what you 218 00:14:50,704 --> 00:14:53,144 Speaker 1: expect from from a couple in Kawaie. They just see 219 00:14:53,224 --> 00:14:55,824 Speaker 1: and he was like, what an electrical engineer who went 220 00:14:55,864 --> 00:14:58,344 Speaker 1: to Duke or something? Is that quite? Something like that? 221 00:14:58,904 --> 00:15:01,864 Speaker 1: And he's in great shape. Like they they seem normal 222 00:15:02,104 --> 00:15:04,904 Speaker 1: and they I mean, they have an enormous number of 223 00:15:04,944 --> 00:15:09,304 Speaker 1: cats in their home, like thirty or something st six 224 00:15:09,344 --> 00:15:12,504 Speaker 1: cats in their house. But as crazy as I think, 225 00:15:12,544 --> 00:15:17,664 Speaker 1: I think technically, just to clarify that, twelve live in 226 00:15:17,704 --> 00:15:22,464 Speaker 1: the house, twelve roam around the house. At twelve live 227 00:15:22,544 --> 00:15:25,144 Speaker 1: in what they call a cat zebo, which is a 228 00:15:26,424 --> 00:15:30,184 Speaker 1: screened in area in the backyard. You know, the size 229 00:15:30,224 --> 00:15:32,784 Speaker 1: of a small room, and twelve of the cats live 230 00:15:32,864 --> 00:15:34,424 Speaker 1: in that so they can be sort of outside and 231 00:15:34,464 --> 00:15:36,384 Speaker 1: inside it. It's like a screened in porch. You don't 232 00:15:36,424 --> 00:15:38,784 Speaker 1: have to explain to our podcast listeners what a cat 233 00:15:38,944 --> 00:15:41,744 Speaker 1: zebo is. This is a very sophisticated audience. They all 234 00:15:41,784 --> 00:15:46,544 Speaker 1: are familiar with cat zebos, okay, but even as crazy 235 00:15:46,584 --> 00:15:48,864 Speaker 1: as that sounds, basically they live in a house that 236 00:15:48,984 --> 00:15:51,464 Speaker 1: cat's own. At this point, but when you see a 237 00:15:51,464 --> 00:15:55,104 Speaker 1: photo of it. It's like a nice, clean, cool house 238 00:15:55,144 --> 00:15:57,064 Speaker 1: that like, I don't know, you might show up for 239 00:15:57,144 --> 00:16:01,424 Speaker 1: yoga classes at. Yeah. Yeah, these are not sort of 240 00:16:02,024 --> 00:16:06,824 Speaker 1: unwashed hippies squatting in, you know, some old abandoned building, 241 00:16:06,984 --> 00:16:09,704 Speaker 1: which makes him more effective, right. One of the things 242 00:16:09,704 --> 00:16:13,344 Speaker 1: that that Basil did is all this was heating up. 243 00:16:13,544 --> 00:16:16,584 Speaker 1: Basil put out the word amongst his amongst the cat 244 00:16:16,664 --> 00:16:21,384 Speaker 1: people that hey, guys, the legislation that this committee is 245 00:16:21,424 --> 00:16:25,064 Speaker 1: thinking about writing it would allow guys to come onto 246 00:16:25,064 --> 00:16:29,184 Speaker 1: your property and steal your pet cats, which wasn't the 247 00:16:29,184 --> 00:16:31,904 Speaker 1: case at all. But this got people really worked up, 248 00:16:31,944 --> 00:16:35,544 Speaker 1: and so on Facebook posts and other social media they're 249 00:16:35,544 --> 00:16:38,224 Speaker 1: saying things like, you know, we better arm ourselves to 250 00:16:38,264 --> 00:16:40,504 Speaker 1: protect ourselves. It's time to get a gun, and stuff 251 00:16:40,544 --> 00:16:45,464 Speaker 1: like that. The TNR people were so intense and passionate 252 00:16:45,744 --> 00:16:50,744 Speaker 1: that you postulated that toxo might I mean, it gets 253 00:16:50,744 --> 00:16:54,584 Speaker 1: into humans and it might make them, like the rats, 254 00:16:55,144 --> 00:16:59,584 Speaker 1: kind of super aggressive. I don't know that I postulated, 255 00:16:59,624 --> 00:17:03,424 Speaker 1: and others postulated it, and I wrote about it. Toxoplasmosis 256 00:17:03,624 --> 00:17:06,504 Speaker 1: has been known to make people do crazy things and 257 00:17:06,544 --> 00:17:11,584 Speaker 1: act aggressively. Basically, so some of the people the scientists 258 00:17:11,584 --> 00:17:14,584 Speaker 1: and conservationists on this committee who were working with Basil 259 00:17:14,824 --> 00:17:17,864 Speaker 1: and viewing his what he was saying and how he's 260 00:17:17,904 --> 00:17:20,904 Speaker 1: behaving as kind of completely over the top. They were 261 00:17:20,944 --> 00:17:24,144 Speaker 1: wondering amongst themselves if, hey, man, you know he's got 262 00:17:24,144 --> 00:17:26,424 Speaker 1: thirty six cats and he spends all the time with cats. 263 00:17:26,464 --> 00:17:30,584 Speaker 1: The dudes got you know, maybe he has taxo. But Joel, 264 00:17:30,624 --> 00:17:32,544 Speaker 1: I just want to be clear with you that Basil 265 00:17:32,624 --> 00:17:37,984 Speaker 1: Scott says he has only ever tested negative for taxo, 266 00:17:38,304 --> 00:17:40,424 Speaker 1: and I have no idea if he if he has 267 00:17:40,464 --> 00:17:44,784 Speaker 1: Takso after it came out, Paul's article stirred things up 268 00:17:44,824 --> 00:17:49,144 Speaker 1: even more, if that's possible. Eventually Paul became part of 269 00:17:49,144 --> 00:17:53,824 Speaker 1: the story himself. Several months ago, some legislation came to 270 00:17:53,904 --> 00:17:58,304 Speaker 1: the County Commission about outlawing the feeding of farol cats 271 00:17:58,304 --> 00:18:03,224 Speaker 1: on county land in Kauai, and one of these conservationists 272 00:18:03,224 --> 00:18:05,584 Speaker 1: contacted me and said, hey, look, you know there's going 273 00:18:05,664 --> 00:18:08,104 Speaker 1: to be this thing has come up again. There's going 274 00:18:08,144 --> 00:18:11,864 Speaker 1: to be hearings. Would you testify? So I sent in 275 00:18:11,944 --> 00:18:16,984 Speaker 1: some written testimony, you know, basically discussing what I'm discussing 276 00:18:16,984 --> 00:18:20,344 Speaker 1: with you here, which is that TNR doesn't work. Hawaii 277 00:18:20,384 --> 00:18:23,144 Speaker 1: is the home of all these precious species. But anyway, 278 00:18:23,184 --> 00:18:26,824 Speaker 1: this thing passed overwhelmingly. There's been a cascade of anti 279 00:18:26,824 --> 00:18:30,304 Speaker 1: feral cat legislation around the world this year. Some towns 280 00:18:30,304 --> 00:18:33,664 Speaker 1: in Iceland banned housecats from romeo outside anywhere, and a 281 00:18:33,664 --> 00:18:38,264 Speaker 1: similar law was passed in Canberra, Australia. But Basil, Kawaii's 282 00:18:38,344 --> 00:18:42,264 Speaker 1: top cat lover, has been preparing for this with cat 283 00:18:42,424 --> 00:18:46,744 Speaker 1: Zebo mcmatchions. He was talking about fencing, you know, making 284 00:18:46,744 --> 00:18:50,304 Speaker 1: a fenced facility capable of holding forty cats, And I 285 00:18:50,344 --> 00:18:54,264 Speaker 1: think that that's what they're going to be left with now. 286 00:18:54,344 --> 00:18:58,864 Speaker 1: They'll probably still have feral cat colonies in Kauai. I 287 00:18:58,904 --> 00:19:01,664 Speaker 1: think this bill we're talking about it's it's just sort 288 00:19:01,664 --> 00:19:05,304 Speaker 1: of a first step towards trying to rain these cats in. 289 00:19:06,104 --> 00:19:08,984 Speaker 1: When you think about who the villain of the story is, 290 00:19:09,224 --> 00:19:11,264 Speaker 1: do you do you think it's cats or do you 291 00:19:11,304 --> 00:19:14,424 Speaker 1: think it's people who love too much? Or what is 292 00:19:14,824 --> 00:19:18,024 Speaker 1: the heart of the problem. Well, I love cats. I'm 293 00:19:18,024 --> 00:19:20,024 Speaker 1: a cat guy. I've had cats for years. I owned 294 00:19:20,064 --> 00:19:25,544 Speaker 1: two cats. Cats are great. But one of these conservationists 295 00:19:26,304 --> 00:19:29,704 Speaker 1: said something that was interesting when he was talking about 296 00:19:29,744 --> 00:19:33,264 Speaker 1: this cat problem. He said, you know, you know, you've 297 00:19:33,264 --> 00:19:35,784 Speaker 1: got these cats. There's half a million of them, which 298 00:19:35,864 --> 00:19:37,904 Speaker 1: is a lot, you know, and then you've got fifteen 299 00:19:37,984 --> 00:19:41,384 Speaker 1: hundred monk seals and a few hundred of this bird 300 00:19:41,424 --> 00:19:44,544 Speaker 1: species and a few hundred of that bird species. And 301 00:19:44,664 --> 00:19:48,584 Speaker 1: he said, you know, if you're pro cat, it's sort 302 00:19:48,584 --> 00:19:53,424 Speaker 1: of like you're pulling for Walmart over Little Joe the 303 00:19:53,464 --> 00:19:57,344 Speaker 1: butcher on Main Street. You know, the mom and pop shops, 304 00:19:57,744 --> 00:20:00,344 Speaker 1: which are you know, they're disappearing. So it seems like 305 00:20:00,704 --> 00:20:06,664 Speaker 1: some misplaced priorities, you know, people not appreciating that special 306 00:20:06,704 --> 00:20:11,304 Speaker 1: wildlife that's quickly disappearing. And there for cats because cats 307 00:20:11,304 --> 00:20:14,344 Speaker 1: are super cutly, but there's a ga jillion cats. So yeah, 308 00:20:14,344 --> 00:20:18,304 Speaker 1: there's something skewed about the way the cat people are 309 00:20:18,304 --> 00:20:21,784 Speaker 1: preceding all this. So when you get back from this trip, 310 00:20:22,624 --> 00:20:26,784 Speaker 1: how do you look at your own cats differently? I mean, no, 311 00:20:27,424 --> 00:20:29,784 Speaker 1: I still love my cats, and I think there's a 312 00:20:29,824 --> 00:20:34,464 Speaker 1: way that cats can be cared for where they're not 313 00:20:34,504 --> 00:20:37,864 Speaker 1: out slaughtering endangered species. Is your cat ever walked in 314 00:20:37,904 --> 00:20:40,344 Speaker 1: and presented you with something, You're like, oh boy, you 315 00:20:40,344 --> 00:20:43,264 Speaker 1: should not have killed that. Oh there was a chipmunk 316 00:20:43,304 --> 00:20:45,864 Speaker 1: in there and you know, a bird or two, and 317 00:20:45,904 --> 00:20:50,624 Speaker 1: we keep him in much more now for sure. But yeah, 318 00:20:50,744 --> 00:20:52,624 Speaker 1: Jackson can make me feel like a hypocrite. I sort 319 00:20:52,624 --> 00:20:55,424 Speaker 1: of rationalize it by saying, I live in Atlanta, not Kauai. 320 00:20:56,024 --> 00:20:58,024 Speaker 1: You know, I don't think we have a ton of 321 00:20:58,104 --> 00:21:01,144 Speaker 1: endangered species here. Is this what's keeping it from moving 322 00:21:01,184 --> 00:21:06,744 Speaker 1: to Kauai? My cats? That's exactly it. Paulkaventa's story, Hawaii's 323 00:21:06,784 --> 00:21:10,424 Speaker 1: Crazy War over Zombie Cats was published an outside magazine. 324 00:21:10,904 --> 00:21:13,304 Speaker 1: Thank you for talking to me, but thank you for 325 00:21:13,384 --> 00:21:15,944 Speaker 1: writing this story and all your stories. You write such 326 00:21:16,104 --> 00:21:18,464 Speaker 1: wonderful stuff and it's why we wanted to do this podcast. 327 00:21:18,464 --> 00:21:20,864 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for doing this. Thanks Joel, 328 00:21:20,864 --> 00:21:24,584 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Now go make sure Jackson doesn't leave 329 00:21:24,584 --> 00:21:29,344 Speaker 1: the house. We'll do. I just want to be very 330 00:21:29,384 --> 00:21:32,344 Speaker 1: clear to the cat people who get sent this episode 331 00:21:32,344 --> 00:21:35,184 Speaker 1: on Facebook, because I know that's where your cat people are. 332 00:21:35,744 --> 00:21:39,304 Speaker 1: I don't want any cats killed. I think you're all 333 00:21:39,544 --> 00:21:43,784 Speaker 1: very good people. You're upstanding people, full of cat love. 334 00:21:43,944 --> 00:21:52,224 Speaker 1: So just don't email me. Email Paul. At the end 335 00:21:52,304 --> 00:21:55,584 Speaker 1: of the show, what's next for joel Stein? Maybe he'll 336 00:21:55,624 --> 00:21:59,784 Speaker 1: take a nap poke Around online. Our show Today was 337 00:21:59,824 --> 00:22:03,384 Speaker 1: produced by Lydia Gencott and Nisheve Ncut. It was edited 338 00:22:03,384 --> 00:22:08,144 Speaker 1: by Robert Smith. Our engineer is Amanda kay Wang and 339 00:22:08,224 --> 00:22:12,464 Speaker 1: our executive pre series Katherine Girad. And our theme song 340 00:22:12,504 --> 00:22:15,824 Speaker 1: was written and performed by Jonathan Colton and a special 341 00:22:15,864 --> 00:22:18,904 Speaker 1: thanks to my voice coach Vicky Merrick and my consulting 342 00:22:18,944 --> 00:22:23,264 Speaker 1: producer Laurence Elasnick. To find more Pushkin podcast, listen on 343 00:22:23,264 --> 00:22:27,024 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 344 00:22:27,064 --> 00:22:30,384 Speaker 1: your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein and this is the story 345 00:22:30,384 --> 00:22:38,984 Speaker 1: of the week. Have you ever tested yourself for Taxo? 346 00:22:39,224 --> 00:22:42,504 Speaker 1: I have not. Maybe I should. Yeah, Yeah. You see 347 00:22:42,544 --> 00:22:45,504 Speaker 1: pretty passionate about all this. Do I come off as aggressive? 348 00:22:45,944 --> 00:22:48,784 Speaker 1: I think one of the effects that you read was eroticism. 349 00:22:49,664 --> 00:22:54,584 Speaker 1: I'm sensing maybe I misheard the word. I'm sensing a 350 00:22:54,624 --> 00:22:59,144 Speaker 1: bit of that. Next week, we take you inside the 351 00:22:59,344 --> 00:23:02,064 Speaker 1: dark world of carnivorous plant collecting.