Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'mheart Radio podcast.
Speaker 2: Today's episode Whine About It Thursday Therapy. It's going to
Speaker 2: do with Linda and Charlie Bloom. So they're experts in
Speaker 2: the field of relationships. They've been married since nineteen seventy two.
Speaker 2: They've both been trained as seminar leaders, therapists and relationship counselors,
Speaker 2: and I've been working with individuals, couples and groups since
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. They have a new book out, which
Speaker 2: is what we're going to talk about. It's An End
Speaker 2: to Arguing, a one oh one valuable lessons for all relationships,
Speaker 2: and now more than ever, couples need guidance for navigating
Speaker 2: conflict wisely and skillfully. Drawing on insights from their work
Speaker 2: with couples since nineteen seventy five, the Blooms offer practical
Speaker 2: tools and strategies that apply to all relationships. An End
Speaker 2: to Arguing convincingly shows how destructive conflicts can be avoided
Speaker 2: and provide stimulus for individual and interpersonal growth. They use
Speaker 2: compelling examples from their clinical work and their own fifty
Speaker 2: year marriage, which have had its share of challenges.
Speaker 3: I'm excited to get them on because let's just stop
Speaker 3: there arguing. Hey guys, I'm Jana.
Speaker 4: How are you?
Speaker 5: Things are going good?
Speaker 3: Like good?
Speaker 2: Good? Because I know every time it's like people are like, yeah, no,
Speaker 2: it's good, but really there's you know, like how are you?
Speaker 3: How are you really okay? Especially good?
Speaker 5: Especially good. We had a wonderful Easter holiday weekend with
Speaker 5: my son and his girlfriend and my grandkids, and it
Speaker 5: was beautiful weather. It's especially enjoyable with all the sunshine
Speaker 5: because we've just come out of three weeks of gloom
Speaker 5: and rain.
Speaker 3: So you must be in California.
Speaker 5: We're in California, we're mid coast and Santa Cruz and
Speaker 5: so I always enjoy the spring, but after all of
Speaker 5: this rain we've had, it's so wonderful to be able
Speaker 5: to sit out on the deck in the sun.
Speaker 3: And you guys have been married for fifty years?
Speaker 4: Is that right, Charlie more than fifty years? Fifty years?
Speaker 5: Oh, there you go.
Speaker 3: That's why I throw it to you, because I'm like,
Speaker 3: the guys never know.
Speaker 2: Replins, You're right, So okay, I'm really excited to talk
Speaker 2: to you guys. I'm a big this show is a
Speaker 2: big advocate for therapy. I've been doing therapy since I
Speaker 2: was pretty much fourteen, but really like diving in just
Speaker 2: with all my childhood stuff and trying to you know
Speaker 2: now that I'm in I got divorced two years ago
Speaker 2: and now I'm in a new relationship and I'm so
Speaker 2: excited to your book.
Speaker 3: It's an end to.
Speaker 2: Arguing and just like I love that, and I wonder,
Speaker 2: you know, obviously you've been doing clinical work since nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy five, but what is the biggest like, what is
Speaker 2: the biggest argument that you've seen in all your years
Speaker 2: of doing.
Speaker 6: What you do.
Speaker 5: I think it's when people feel that their trust has
Speaker 5: been betrayed. It doesn't necessarily have to be an affair,
Speaker 5: but that's one of the places where it shows up,
Speaker 5: and it's just a huge psychic assault. And we're both
Speaker 5: from the school of thought that no matter how big
Speaker 5: the crisis is in your relationship, if there's motivation on
Speaker 5: both sides to learn and grow, that that crisis can
Speaker 5: be fueling your tank to have even a deeper trust
Speaker 5: and a greater understanding and a more expansive commitment that
Speaker 5: you had pre crisis. So we're always working with couples
Speaker 5: about where is your motivation. Is your motivation strong enough
Speaker 5: to do the kind of repair that's required after trust
Speaker 5: has fallen down?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I mean, that's the number one
Speaker 2: reason why my marriage didn't work.
Speaker 3: My ex husband had a bunch of affairs.
Speaker 2: And every time that I thought we'd built up lots,
Speaker 2: there'd be another fall, another discovery of something, and that.
Speaker 3: Trust could just never get there.
Speaker 2: Like I would just about to be like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: think I trust him, and then it was taken away
Speaker 2: and then having to kind of rebuild that, And that
Speaker 2: went on for about seven years, and I know now
Speaker 2: I'm curious, like where I'm at today, and I'm almost
Speaker 2: so triggered by trust and wise that I'm like I
Speaker 2: can't physically. I'm like, if my boyfriend weren't a lot
Speaker 2: to me, which I don't think he has that at all, but.
Speaker 3: Like I would, I don't know if I could ever.
Speaker 2: Recover from from that, because it's such the destruction that
Speaker 2: it did.
Speaker 3: And then who I turned into.
Speaker 2: Like I was dating someone post divorce and he had
Speaker 2: lied to me about something, and I turned into this
Speaker 2: version of just like.
Speaker 3: Someone that wasn't even me.
Speaker 2: I just the control and the like the anger, and
Speaker 2: the like, I didn't even recognize myself and I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: and now I know I could never be with someone
Speaker 2: that I cannot trust. But it's like, but then I
Speaker 2: see here stories of people that can trust again, I'm like,
Speaker 2: I don't know where, like how to how to be
Speaker 2: on the other side of it in a new healthy relationship.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very subjective thing from person person and
Speaker 4: depending upon the situation. But when when we're working with
Speaker 4: a person or with a couple around the issue of betrayal,
Speaker 4: whether it's sexual infidelity or the betrayal of a very
Speaker 4: important promise or commitment or vow that they made, that
Speaker 4: it's it's really important to find out first of all,
Speaker 4: whether you think whether they think it's even possible to
Speaker 4: repair this, because a lot of you know, a lot
Speaker 4: of the people that we've dealt with, when we asked
Speaker 4: that question, one of them will say, no, it's too late,
Speaker 4: it's over, And I mean we won't, you know, we'll
Speaker 4: press a little bit into that, but if they're really
Speaker 4: committed to holding that position, which is understandable because when
Speaker 4: you've had a betrayal or multiple betrayals, you reach a
Speaker 4: point or most people do at some point, you know,
Speaker 4: I can't put myself in this position again.
Speaker 3: I can't.
Speaker 4: I'm not willing to allow myself to go through this
Speaker 4: again because it's ripping me apart. And so the first
Speaker 4: thing we've got to find out is whether or not
Speaker 4: they even think it's possible. And in the cases where
Speaker 4: they both agree it's possible, there's always a big butt yeah.
Speaker 4: But I don't know if we if we can do it,
Speaker 4: I don't know what it's going to require. And but
Speaker 4: that's that's that's the beginning. Most people underestimate the damage
Speaker 4: that even one trail, never mind multiple betrayals, what that
Speaker 4: can do in the amount of time and work and
Speaker 4: effort and patience and energy it requires to really do
Speaker 4: a thorough repair. They just don't They don't realize it.
Speaker 4: And so, you know, you know, sometimes we'll get situations,
Speaker 4: I mean, there you'll probably you know, see this, this
Speaker 4: doesn't make any sense, but you'll get situations where the
Speaker 4: betrayer will apologize and you know, he'll expect often at him,
Speaker 4: but it's often it can be her too. She'll expect
Speaker 4: forgiveness and let's move on. So, you know, three days
Speaker 4: after the affair, you know, she's quote still hurting, still
Speaker 4: upset for three months, still hasn't forgiven him. And you know,
Speaker 4: even if there's a short period of time like that,
Speaker 4: you know, he said, well, you know, you know, come on,
Speaker 4: it's been it's been three days, it's been two weeks.
Speaker 4: You know, let's get on, get get over this, let's
Speaker 4: move on, you know, quit holding onto this. That's one
Speaker 4: of the biggest mistakes that people make is putting pressure
Speaker 4: on somebody to forgive them when they ain't close to
Speaker 4: being ready to forgive yet there's so much work to do.
Speaker 4: It's not saying I'm sorry.
Speaker 5: Doesn't cut it. The evidence has to come in that
Speaker 5: the person is truly sincerely contrite that they are sorry
Speaker 5: that they acted out that way. They violated the trust,
Speaker 5: they caused so much suffering, and they're demonstrating with their
Speaker 5: high integrity behavior, their honesty, their openness, their their willingness
Speaker 5: to reveal rather than conceal. That builds the true us back.
Speaker 5: But even when there is a motivation on both sides,
Speaker 5: it can take several months or a year or more.
Speaker 1: That's I remember saying that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to say it's Max and'd be like,
Speaker 2: what are you going to like, when are we going
Speaker 2: to move on from this? You keep bringing it up
Speaker 2: and I'm like, well, it's been two months. And what
Speaker 2: you don't understand is I think about it every second.
Speaker 2: Like first it's every second, and then maybe like in
Speaker 2: a month, I'm like, I think about it every minute,
Speaker 2: or I have I passed by this hotel, or I
Speaker 2: see this, or I'm like that's what you don't get,
Speaker 2: Like you can just be like, okay, done, I apologize,
Speaker 2: it's under the rug. It's not for me, like I
Speaker 2: see it all the time, Like I can't. I'm trying.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to do my work. But it's like it's
Speaker 2: a my therapist basically. I remember we were in a
Speaker 2: couple's session. He was like, you, she was a passenger
Speaker 2: in a car car accident, her legs are chopped off.
Speaker 2: Do you expect that person to be over the fact
Speaker 2: that they don't have legs and there they can't carry themselves.
Speaker 4: You know that's a great metaphor, that's great, that's so accurate.
Speaker 2: So i'd always be a car crash, Like I'm trying
Speaker 2: so moving on right, Like I'm in a happy, loving
Speaker 2: relationship now, And how do you how do people, I guess,
Speaker 2: not put the face on someone else or like and
Speaker 2: just go in again trusting because a lot of people
Speaker 2: are like, how are you able to trust again? And
Speaker 2: I always say like, well, it's so different. This is
Speaker 2: a you know, I have to remind myself that this
Speaker 2: isn't my ex and how he how my boyfriend shows
Speaker 2: up now is wildly different how my ex did?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 1: So it's like I have to look at those things.
Speaker 2: But there are still times when I have to do
Speaker 2: you know, inventory check ins with myself or like or
Speaker 2: what's coming up or you know, And but what would
Speaker 2: you say to someone that's like, how do I how
Speaker 2: do I trust again? How to put myself back out there?
Speaker 5: Well? To trust again is an act of tremendous courage
Speaker 5: after it's been violated, and we choose, moment to moment,
Speaker 5: day to day, incident to incident, we choose to trust
Speaker 5: and to give them the benefit of the doubt and
Speaker 5: take the projection of the person who betrayed us. Do
Speaker 5: you know off of that person and see them as
Speaker 5: they are and look at them through eyes of appreciation
Speaker 5: and gratitude that this is a high integrity person, This
Speaker 5: is a person who values honesty. This is a person
Speaker 5: who's generous of spirit enough that when I am triggered
Speaker 5: and I'm having those fearful, suspicious thoughts, that I can
Speaker 5: tell the truth about that and they won't make me
Speaker 5: bad and wrong for it. That they'll respect that I
Speaker 5: was injured and that I'm in recovery and that it
Speaker 5: sometimes takes many months even years to make a full recovery.
Speaker 5: But we're a stand for a full recovery is possible.
Speaker 5: And if you have an agreement with this lovely new
Speaker 5: person who's in your life, that you you have permission,
Speaker 5: you know that you're it's okay for you to have
Speaker 5: those moments of fear and that you can speak them
Speaker 5: in a way that he can console you and he
Speaker 5: can reassure you, and that he's committed to have an honest, open,
Speaker 5: above board relationship and that you two are aligned in
Speaker 5: that value which you didn't have with that other person.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's crazy because I don't have an
Speaker 2: ounce of distrust and you know, he lives in a
Speaker 2: different country, so it's like that it's because of how
Speaker 2: we respect each other. It's so the trust is like
Speaker 2: it's been I don't have I don't. I don't not
Speaker 2: trust him, like at ounce of me does not not
Speaker 2: trust him. And I think it's again And I don't
Speaker 2: know if that's a piece into your arguing book, But like,
Speaker 2: how we respect each other and how we choose our
Speaker 2: words together is so different too, And I know that
Speaker 2: takes two people choosing to respect the other person and
Speaker 2: to and to and to love. But have you seen that, like,
Speaker 2: is that something that is a trick in your and
Speaker 2: too arguing? Is how you speak to each other?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and how do you speak to each other really
Speaker 4: is a function of your own willingness to live in
Speaker 4: the integrity of the truth. So the way the way
Speaker 4: you the words that you use when you speak are
Speaker 4: an expression of what your inner values are. And sometimes
Speaker 4: you know, people don't realize how much they're revealing about
Speaker 4: themselves when when they when they speak, and particularly when
Speaker 4: they make agreements and promise is that they don't keep.
Speaker 4: And in almost every case that we've seen where there's
Speaker 4: been major fundamental betrayals, there has been a breakdown in
Speaker 4: the fundamental level of trust in the relationship. It's been
Speaker 4: there since before the event happened that caused the crisis.
Speaker 4: And and you know most most couples don't really understand
Speaker 4: how damaging it is to create a track record with
Speaker 4: the other person where they don't naturally trust the words
Speaker 4: of their partner. They don't realize that when when promises
Speaker 4: are broken, when people are not honest with each other,
Speaker 4: when they do things that are inconsistent with their words,
Speaker 4: that this does serious damage. Every time that happens. It
Speaker 4: takes the integrity of the relationship down another notch. And
Speaker 4: so people get very suspicious. They start checking each other's phones,
Speaker 4: and they start doing things and doubting that, questioning whether
Speaker 4: or not they can really take the other person's word
Speaker 4: for it. So there's a breakdown in trust, which makes
Speaker 4: the relationship very vulnerable to actions that can further jeopardize.
Speaker 5: And every great relationship is built on a foundation of trust.
Speaker 5: So there's a whole series of agreements that when we
Speaker 5: know kid and keep them makes that foundation solid. And
Speaker 5: I love the definition. We learned this from Angelusarian that
Speaker 5: integrity is having what you think and feel and say
Speaker 5: and do all lined ump is one. So when a
Speaker 5: couple has an agreement to live in integrity, each of
Speaker 5: them as an individual to live a life of integrity
Speaker 5: and to have their relationship be about honesty and openness
Speaker 5: and integrity. That's a great contract to make. That's the
Speaker 5: kind of a contract that brings out the best in
Speaker 5: each other.
Speaker 2: I'm s laughing to myself because when you brought up
Speaker 2: the phone thing, I used to be the worst. Like
Speaker 2: I would look in phones. I was because I'm like,
Speaker 2: I know I'm gonna find it, I'm gonna find it.
Speaker 2: But it's the only time I've ever looked in someone's
Speaker 2: phone in a pass like with my exer next relationship,
Speaker 2: is because they've lied to me. So then I'm like,
Speaker 2: all right, let me find some more. And that's why,
Speaker 2: like and I told my boyfriend. Now I'm like, I don't.
Speaker 2: The second that I feel like I want to look
Speaker 2: at your phone, that's when like there's a problem, because
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't want to have to ever want
Speaker 2: or like have the need or the feeling to look
Speaker 2: at your phone like and that's you know, and I don't,
Speaker 2: which is great because he hasn't lied to me, right,
Speaker 2: But when I look back in other relationships, I'm going, well, yeah, Jane,
Speaker 2: of course you're looking in their phone. They lied to you,
Speaker 2: Like of course you're going to want to find more evidence,
Speaker 2: and it's like the detectiveness comes out again right.
Speaker 5: Which doesn't mean that we are perfect all the time.
Speaker 5: We sometimes are forgetful, or we're sometimes overtired. We sometimes
Speaker 5: make a mistake, but if we own up to it
Speaker 5: right away and put the correction in repair, the trust
Speaker 5: doesn't have You.
Speaker 1: Know, something too in your book that I was.
Speaker 2: I was curious to know more about is you know,
Speaker 2: I always say, and this is something that I think
Speaker 2: everyone not everyone, but a lot of people say, my
Speaker 2: mom told me this is you know, when I was
Speaker 2: in relationships, Well, choose pick your battles, choose your battles,
Speaker 2: and you say, don't And so I'm curious if you
Speaker 2: can elaborate on that.
Speaker 4: Well, we don't mean that you shouldn't be discerning about
Speaker 4: which things you get upset about and which things you
Speaker 4: need to talk about. There's a big difference between you know,
Speaker 4: having having your feelings hurt because your partner forgot your
Speaker 4: birthday and and them having an affair. I mean, one
Speaker 4: of them is quite a bit more serious than the
Speaker 4: other one. The thing that we have an issue with
Speaker 4: is more semantics than anything else. It's the word battles,
Speaker 4: and that is what people how they describe to choose
Speaker 4: your battles, pick your battles, and so automatically that predisposes
Speaker 4: people to take an adversarial position. Here, we're going to
Speaker 4: be fighting. One of us is going to win, one
Speaker 4: of us is going to lose. This is going to
Speaker 4: be a battle. Anticipating having an attitude that anticipates that
Speaker 4: kind of an event predisposes you to be on the
Speaker 4: defensive and offensive. So, so you know, we prefer just
Speaker 4: to talk about those places where you know, we're not
Speaker 4: sure is this worth is this a hill worth dying on?
Speaker 4: Is this worth really taking a stand on? Or you know,
Speaker 4: maybe maybe not. You know, so you know, we're not
Speaker 4: saying don't be discerning. It's discriminating about what you choose
Speaker 4: to to talk about. We're just saying, you know, words
Speaker 4: can be very powerful and the language that we use
Speaker 4: not only when we're talking to each other, but when
Speaker 4: we're thinking it ourselves. You know, Okay, I've got to
Speaker 4: I've got to is this a battle that I want
Speaker 4: to fight? So just to kind of frame it in
Speaker 4: a way that you're looking at it from a different perspure.
Speaker 2: And I think something that I've like my way of
Speaker 2: arguing has changed, where I think I used to always
Speaker 2: want to be right and I would want them to
Speaker 2: get my point, understand my point now learning that not
Speaker 2: probably more times than not, they're probably not going to
Speaker 2: understand why I feel X, Y, and Z, but they
Speaker 2: can at least. I think the empathy piece is the
Speaker 2: only piece that I really crave for. And just like
Speaker 2: I don't need you to understand it, I don't need
Speaker 2: you to be right or wrong. I just need you
Speaker 2: to listen and maybe be like, how can I help
Speaker 2: you in the future when something like this comes up, Like,
Speaker 2: that's literally all I ask and all I need.
Speaker 5: And that's a lot to show that level of respect,
Speaker 5: that we make our best effort to hear their point
Speaker 5: of view, which may be really discrepant from our point
Speaker 5: of view, to hear their feelings, to hear their needs,
Speaker 5: and to show respect. And you mentioned empathy, you know,
Speaker 5: and to best we can understand. We won't understand completely
Speaker 5: why this is so important to them, But right along
Speaker 5: with the trust building is this sense of this person
Speaker 5: respects who I am and my belief system.
Speaker 3: And I.
Speaker 5: Am worthy of having their respect and they are worthy
Speaker 5: of having my respect. And we could have very discrepant
Speaker 5: points of view, maybe even values that are different, but
Speaker 5: we make a space that's big enough to hold them.
Speaker 5: And that's really good individuation. Two unique personalities, two people
Speaker 5: with process information differently to people with different sore areas.
Speaker 5: Do you know, but that can be a wonderful, wonderful
Speaker 5: relationship that we're enriched by our differences, not aggregated by them.
Speaker 1: Charlie, I have a question on the guy side. Do
Speaker 1: you think that.
Speaker 2: Do you think men struggle with empathy more than women?
Speaker 4: Well, the problem is that they don't struggle with it.
Speaker 3: They don't have it the.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, they're not conscious enough to realize that it's
Speaker 4: that they've got an empathy deficiency, you know. And I
Speaker 4: don't mean to make light of this, and I do
Speaker 4: believe that we're all men and women are all always
Speaker 4: doing the best that we can do given the level
Speaker 4: of skill, of consciousness, uh of intelligence that we have
Speaker 4: in that moment, however, and said that we do live
Speaker 4: in a culture that reinforces certain traits in men and
Speaker 4: certain traits in women, and that values some things in
Speaker 4: one gender that it the values in the other gender,
Speaker 4: and women tend to be, to get more encouragement to
Speaker 4: trust their feelings and to be and to honor the
Speaker 4: value of feelings. Where you know, men and I know
Speaker 4: these are gross generalizations, but there's some truth to them.
Speaker 4: In general, men are more predisposed two relate to things
Speaker 4: through our intellect, through our cognitive facilities, through analytics.
Speaker 2: How to fix how to either defend or defend your
Speaker 2: fix is kind of what like I'm like, no, no, no,
Speaker 2: find empathy, not defender fix empathy.
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, there's only for most guys. There's only one
Speaker 4: reason why my wife is going to come to me
Speaker 4: with a problem, of course, and that's because she wants
Speaker 4: me to fix it. So she hasn't even she doesn't
Speaker 4: even get the words out of her mouth. As soon
Speaker 4: as I smell that there's a problem here, I'm going
Speaker 4: to be offering advice even though she's only spoken for
Speaker 4: three seconds, you know, So, I mean we're wired that way.
Speaker 4: So yeah, the question is how how does you know?
Speaker 4: Is it? Is it possible for a guy who has
Speaker 4: been conditioned in this culture for decades to reinforce and
Speaker 4: well to diminish the value of emotions. In fact, not
Speaker 4: only do we got get not get a lot of
Speaker 4: support to develop it, but we kind of demonize emotions,
Speaker 4: see it as as a woman's thing, it's a weakness.
Speaker 4: We don't want to be too emotional because then will
Speaker 4: appear to be to be weak and not well masculine.
Speaker 4: So I mean that the question, then, I think that
Speaker 4: you're that's implied in your question to me is uh,
Speaker 4: what do.
Speaker 5: We do with this?
Speaker 4: You know, like I said, what do you do with it?
Speaker 4: When that's what you're met with?
Speaker 5: So I would like.
Speaker 6: To speak to since this is a signature strength of
Speaker 6: most women, we have a sense of responsibility to appeal
Speaker 6: to their enlightened self interest about why it's going to
Speaker 6: be fabulous for our relationship for both of us to
Speaker 6: develop our empathy, the depth of understanding and the depth
Speaker 6: of closeness that comes with that kind of.
Speaker 5: Heart talk, you know, feeling, and that we reinforce it
Speaker 5: like mad that we find the sensitivity in our men attractive,
Speaker 5: that we don't see it as weakness. We see it
Speaker 5: as being real and we value it, and that when
Speaker 5: we have that depth of connection, do you know we're
Speaker 5: going to argue less and have.
Speaker 2: Pross And that's what the guy likes to hear so
Speaker 2: it's a win. I'm going to lean in sure, because
Speaker 2: then I get to really lean in later there you go,
Speaker 2: it's like it's like, you know what I mean, it's perfect.
Speaker 1: Is what is one of the.
Speaker 2: Best arguing tips that you guys have in the book?
Speaker 2: One of them, not all of them, because we want
Speaker 2: people to read it.
Speaker 4: So we distinguish an argument, which is, you know, the
Speaker 4: kind of arguments that we're talking about are not simply
Speaker 4: differences of opinion. There's a big difference between you know,
Speaker 4: having two different perspectives, two different points of view about something,
Speaker 4: and that's going to happen. And that's not a problem.
Speaker 4: That is something that's inherent in all relationships, particularly in
Speaker 4: close relationships. There are things that we're on the same
Speaker 4: page about, and then there are things that are we're
Speaker 4: on different pages about. So we're concerned about it. And
Speaker 4: you know, you've probably noticed that in the book. There's
Speaker 4: a certain kind of an argument that is really potentially
Speaker 4: very destructive, and that is when there's an issue that
Speaker 4: comes up for people that's very loaded for one or
Speaker 4: both of them, you know, perhaps because of some experiences
Speaker 4: they've had in the past, but they're really sensitive to it.
Speaker 4: And they have a very strong defensive position on it
Speaker 4: about how they want to deal with it. And when
Speaker 4: the other person confronts them with a different point of
Speaker 4: view that threatens their security, then they they get triggered.
Speaker 4: So what I mean by triggered is that they get
Speaker 4: emotionally activated in a way that makes it very difficult
Speaker 4: for them to continue to have a rational discussion. Yeah, right, right,
Speaker 4: And and so one of the things that's necessary when
Speaker 4: they start to move into that territory is immediately as
Speaker 4: soon as they recognize it in themselves, one of them
Speaker 4: to say, WHOA, I am triggered, just to acknowledge, you know,
Speaker 4: what they're experiencing, and saying something that simple, just identifying
Speaker 4: the experience can itself just cool things down enough to
Speaker 4: begin to bring a little more rational rationality into the
Speaker 4: conversation so it doesn't keep deteriorating into a deeper and
Speaker 4: deeper sense of conflict. You know, we want we want
Speaker 4: to diffuse the potential for things going down the rabbit
Speaker 4: hole and for both people amplifying their fear and their
Speaker 4: anger and getting into more conflict, or else one or
Speaker 4: both of them just withdrawing and disengaging, because that's that
Speaker 4: doesn't work either. So so we want we want people
Speaker 4: to be willing to just own it, to name it,
Speaker 4: you know, when when they feel like, whoa, this is uh,
Speaker 4: I need to take a break here, or you know,
Speaker 4: we need to do something here to stabilize I need
Speaker 4: to do something to stabilize myself. It's not a good
Speaker 4: idea when you recognize the other person is really inflame,
Speaker 4: try to get them to calm down. Know, somebody tells
Speaker 4: me to calm down. The last thing I'm going to.
Speaker 2: Do is it's like telling your kid you're tired. I'm
Speaker 2: not tired, Like, no, you're actually so tired.
Speaker 4: And that's a good that's a good analogy because when
Speaker 4: those things happen, we are acting like a kid. We're
Speaker 4: acting like a five year old. You know, we have
Speaker 4: lost connection to our neocortex brain that can analyze uh
Speaker 4: and relate with more skillfulness to differences. We don't have
Speaker 4: access to that. So yeah, I mean that's you know,
Speaker 4: we got to first of all, just poled down enough
Speaker 4: to be able to engage rationally. And if we can't
Speaker 4: do that while we're in the midst of this, we
Speaker 4: need to take a break, and we write about that
Speaker 4: in several checks.
Speaker 2: There's something too that I remember that was really helpful
Speaker 2: when I was doing couple therapy with my axes. So
Speaker 2: I have, like, you know, my abandonment issues and fears,
Speaker 2: and so what our therapists did was they put a
Speaker 2: when when someone's activated and they need to take a
Speaker 2: time out, it's like, hey, I'm leaving right now, but
Speaker 2: I will be back. Can we like set like a
Speaker 2: time like I'll be back in thirty minutes or I
Speaker 2: need like essential.
Speaker 4: That's essential. You've got to reassure the other person that
Speaker 4: I'm going to be back and to say when I'm
Speaker 4: going to be back, because if you just leave, that
Speaker 4: just blames their abandonments.
Speaker 2: And even if you don't, it's like just to be
Speaker 2: left or to have a door, you know, and I'm
Speaker 2: against all door slammings now, but you know, just being
Speaker 2: like I need a minute and it's going to be
Speaker 2: I'm going to say thirty minutes and then I will
Speaker 2: come back, and let's try to like, you know, that's
Speaker 2: something that I'm hopeful to take in to you know,
Speaker 2: this this one.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And we have a kind of a guideline that
Speaker 5: we offer when we teach our workshops. And when we
Speaker 5: work with couples that twenty four hours is the absolute
Speaker 5: maximum at a time. And if you tend to be
Speaker 5: a stuffer, do you know you need to come back
Speaker 5: sooner rather than later. But at twenty four hours is
Speaker 5: the absolute.
Speaker 4: Outside But then should that should be rare that you
Speaker 4: could take anything that long known or is better than later. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it usually doesn't take more than you know, half an
Speaker 4: hour or an hour to regulate.
Speaker 5: Yourself, or maybe maybe not even half an hour, Maybe
Speaker 5: just rest is enough. But to make an agreement in
Speaker 5: place that you know, if you're a shout, if you're threatening,
Speaker 5: if you have a tendency to be braddy and bullying,
Speaker 5: that you will calm yourself down before you engage in
Speaker 5: the conversation again. And if you tend to be a stuffer,
Speaker 5: and you can go off and you can go days,
Speaker 5: some people go weeks and they don't they don't re engage.
Speaker 6: That you have an.
Speaker 5: Agreement in place that you're going to come back, and
Speaker 5: so we all know, you know which side of the
Speaker 5: spectrum we're on, whether we're a blurner or whether we're
Speaker 5: a stuffer, And that's really important to have that conversation
Speaker 5: and to have an agreement in place before the disruption
Speaker 5: where you're founded with feeling comes up, so you already
Speaker 5: have that to turn to.
Speaker 1: I love that.
Speaker 2: There's a reason this book is a bestseller because we obviously,
Speaker 2: you know, we're all in relationships, whether it's friendship or
Speaker 2: husband or you know, romantic relationships, and the arguing there's
Speaker 2: there's we want an end arguing, and you guys have
Speaker 2: put that in a book. So Linda and Charlie, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for coming on, and everybody go get
Speaker 2: an end too arguing now because it is a book
Speaker 2: that valuable lessons for all relationships. Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 5: Yeah, we enjoyed the interview.
Speaker 2: Thank you really appreciate you both. And well we'll have
Speaker 2: you back on for more therapy one time.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I love it. Thanks guys, appreciate you.