WEBVTT - Whine About It: Repairing the Trust 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:05.399 Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'mheart Radio podcast. 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.680 Today's episode Whine About It Thursday Therapy. It's going to 0:00:10.680 --> 0:00:13.640 do with Linda and Charlie Bloom. So they're experts in 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:16.759 the field of relationships. They've been married since nineteen seventy two. 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:20.640 They've both been trained as seminar leaders, therapists and relationship counselors, 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.520 and I've been working with individuals, couples and groups since 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.320 nineteen seventy five. They have a new book out, which 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:28.160 is what we're going to talk about. It's An End 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.960 to Arguing, a one oh one valuable lessons for all relationships, 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.480 and now more than ever, couples need guidance for navigating 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:38.080 conflict wisely and skillfully. Drawing on insights from their work 0:00:38.080 --> 0:00:41.320 with couples since nineteen seventy five, the Blooms offer practical 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:44.599 tools and strategies that apply to all relationships. An End 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:48.720 to Arguing convincingly shows how destructive conflicts can be avoided 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:53.080 and provide stimulus for individual and interpersonal growth. They use 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.120 compelling examples from their clinical work and their own fifty 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.640 year marriage, which have had its share of challenges. 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:01.240 I'm excited to get them on because let's just stop 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:03.360 there arguing. Hey guys, I'm Jana. 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:04.880 How are you? 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:06.839 Things are going good? 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:07.560 Like good? 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:09.640 Good? Because I know every time it's like people are like, yeah, no, 0:01:09.680 --> 0:01:12.160 it's good, but really there's you know, like how are you? 0:01:12.280 --> 0:01:14.320 How are you really okay? Especially good? 0:01:15.400 --> 0:01:20.479 Especially good. We had a wonderful Easter holiday weekend with 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.880 my son and his girlfriend and my grandkids, and it 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:30.200 was beautiful weather. It's especially enjoyable with all the sunshine 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:33.880 because we've just come out of three weeks of gloom 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:34.600 and rain. 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:37.119 So you must be in California. 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.480 We're in California, we're mid coast and Santa Cruz and 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:44.959 so I always enjoy the spring, but after all of 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.800 this rain we've had, it's so wonderful to be able 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:49.600 to sit out on the deck in the sun. 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.440 And you guys have been married for fifty years? 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.040 Is that right, Charlie more than fifty years? Fifty years? 0:01:56.240 --> 0:01:57.000 Oh, there you go. 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:58.800 That's why I throw it to you, because I'm like, 0:01:58.880 --> 0:01:59.760 the guys never know. 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.760 Replins, You're right, So okay, I'm really excited to talk 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:10.160 to you guys. I'm a big this show is a 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.520 big advocate for therapy. I've been doing therapy since I 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:18.000 was pretty much fourteen, but really like diving in just 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.760 with all my childhood stuff and trying to you know 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.480 now that I'm in I got divorced two years ago 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.200 and now I'm in a new relationship and I'm so 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:28.720 excited to your book. 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:29.359 It's an end to. 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:32.640 Arguing and just like I love that, and I wonder, 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.560 you know, obviously you've been doing clinical work since nineteen 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.080 seventy five, but what is the biggest like, what is 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:42.920 the biggest argument that you've seen in all your years 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:43.919 of doing. 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:44.200 What you do. 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:49.000 I think it's when people feel that their trust has 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:54.320 been betrayed. It doesn't necessarily have to be an affair, 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.399 but that's one of the places where it shows up, 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:04.000 and it's just a huge psychic assault. And we're both 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.200 from the school of thought that no matter how big 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:12.000 the crisis is in your relationship, if there's motivation on 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:16.519 both sides to learn and grow, that that crisis can 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.480 be fueling your tank to have even a deeper trust 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:26.000 and a greater understanding and a more expansive commitment that 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:31.520 you had pre crisis. So we're always working with couples 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.680 about where is your motivation. Is your motivation strong enough 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:40.840 to do the kind of repair that's required after trust 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:41.800 has fallen down? 0:03:41.840 --> 0:03:44.520 Yeah, I think that's I mean, that's the number one 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:46.200 reason why my marriage didn't work. 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.880 My ex husband had a bunch of affairs. 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.160 And every time that I thought we'd built up lots, 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:59.440 there'd be another fall, another discovery of something, and that. 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:00.680 Trust could just never get there. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.680 Like I would just about to be like, Okay, I 0:04:02.680 --> 0:04:05.560 think I trust him, and then it was taken away 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:07.280 and then having to kind of rebuild that, And that 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:11.040 went on for about seven years, and I know now 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.600 I'm curious, like where I'm at today, and I'm almost 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:18.280 so triggered by trust and wise that I'm like I 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.240 can't physically. I'm like, if my boyfriend weren't a lot 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.040 to me, which I don't think he has that at all, but. 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.120 Like I would, I don't know if I could ever. 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:32.520 Recover from from that, because it's such the destruction that 0:04:32.560 --> 0:04:32.840 it did. 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:34.120 And then who I turned into. 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:39.440 Like I was dating someone post divorce and he had 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:41.360 lied to me about something, and I turned into this 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:42.800 version of just like. 0:04:44.640 --> 0:04:45.680 Someone that wasn't even me. 0:04:45.920 --> 0:04:49.440 I just the control and the like the anger, and 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.640 the like, I didn't even recognize myself and I'm like, okay, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.280 and now I know I could never be with someone 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:57.920 that I cannot trust. But it's like, but then I 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:00.320 see here stories of people that can trust again, I'm like, 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.080 I don't know where, like how to how to be 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:06.839 on the other side of it in a new healthy relationship. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.960 Yeah, it's a very subjective thing from person person and 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:16.760 depending upon the situation. But when when we're working with 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:22.000 a person or with a couple around the issue of betrayal, 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:28.280 whether it's sexual infidelity or the betrayal of a very 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:36.000 important promise or commitment or vow that they made, that 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.440 it's it's really important to find out first of all, 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:45.080 whether you think whether they think it's even possible to 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:48.800 repair this, because a lot of you know, a lot 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.599 of the people that we've dealt with, when we asked 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:56.800 that question, one of them will say, no, it's too late, 0:05:57.480 --> 0:06:02.479 it's over, And I mean we won't, you know, we'll 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.800 press a little bit into that, but if they're really 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:10.400 committed to holding that position, which is understandable because when 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.040 you've had a betrayal or multiple betrayals, you reach a 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.560 point or most people do at some point, you know, 0:06:19.000 --> 0:06:21.000 I can't put myself in this position again. 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:21.640 I can't. 0:06:21.839 --> 0:06:26.080 I'm not willing to allow myself to go through this 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.720 again because it's ripping me apart. And so the first 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:32.320 thing we've got to find out is whether or not 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:38.040 they even think it's possible. And in the cases where 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:43.120 they both agree it's possible, there's always a big butt yeah. 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:46.560 But I don't know if we if we can do it, 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.760 I don't know what it's going to require. And but 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:57.480 that's that's that's the beginning. Most people underestimate the damage 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:04.080 that even one trail, never mind multiple betrayals, what that 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:08.080 can do in the amount of time and work and 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:13.880 effort and patience and energy it requires to really do 0:07:14.080 --> 0:07:17.760 a thorough repair. They just don't They don't realize it. 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:24.000 And so, you know, you know, sometimes we'll get situations, 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:28.400 I mean, there you'll probably you know, see this, this 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:32.200 doesn't make any sense, but you'll get situations where the 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:40.560 betrayer will apologize and you know, he'll expect often at him, 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.560 but it's often it can be her too. She'll expect 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:51.360 forgiveness and let's move on. So, you know, three days 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:56.840 after the affair, you know, she's quote still hurting, still 0:07:57.040 --> 0:08:01.160 upset for three months, still hasn't forgiven him. And you know, 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.240 even if there's a short period of time like that, 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:05.640 you know, he said, well, you know, you know, come on, 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:08.280 it's been it's been three days, it's been two weeks. 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.000 You know, let's get on, get get over this, let's 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.000 move on, you know, quit holding onto this. That's one 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:18.840 of the biggest mistakes that people make is putting pressure 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:22.960 on somebody to forgive them when they ain't close to 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:26.760 being ready to forgive yet there's so much work to do. 0:08:27.000 --> 0:08:32.160 It's not saying I'm sorry. 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.360 Doesn't cut it. The evidence has to come in that 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:41.160 the person is truly sincerely contrite that they are sorry 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:44.640 that they acted out that way. They violated the trust, 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:49.319 they caused so much suffering, and they're demonstrating with their 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:56.240 high integrity behavior, their honesty, their openness, their their willingness 0:08:56.280 --> 0:09:00.640 to reveal rather than conceal. That builds the true us back. 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:04.760 But even when there is a motivation on both sides, 0:09:04.880 --> 0:09:07.680 it can take several months or a year or more. 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:09.439 That's I remember saying that. 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:12.640 Yeah, I used to say it's Max and'd be like, 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.280 what are you going to like, when are we going 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:15.800 to move on from this? You keep bringing it up 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.080 and I'm like, well, it's been two months. And what 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.840 you don't understand is I think about it every second. 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:24.760 Like first it's every second, and then maybe like in 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:26.800 a month, I'm like, I think about it every minute, 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:29.520 or I have I passed by this hotel, or I 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.360 see this, or I'm like that's what you don't get, 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.400 Like you can just be like, okay, done, I apologize, 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.240 it's under the rug. It's not for me, like I 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.640 see it all the time, Like I can't. I'm trying. 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.160 I'm trying to do my work. But it's like it's 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.800 a my therapist basically. I remember we were in a 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.720 couple's session. He was like, you, she was a passenger 0:09:47.880 --> 0:09:50.720 in a car car accident, her legs are chopped off. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:52.800 Do you expect that person to be over the fact 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:56.880 that they don't have legs and there they can't carry themselves. 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:01.480 You know that's a great metaphor, that's great, that's so accurate. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.920 So i'd always be a car crash, Like I'm trying 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:19.800 so moving on right, Like I'm in a happy, loving 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:25.200 relationship now, And how do you how do people, I guess, 0:10:26.679 --> 0:10:29.640 not put the face on someone else or like and 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:31.440 just go in again trusting because a lot of people 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:33.280 are like, how are you able to trust again? And 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:36.400 I always say like, well, it's so different. This is 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:38.080 a you know, I have to remind myself that this 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:41.560 isn't my ex and how he how my boyfriend shows 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.400 up now is wildly different how my ex did? 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:46.440 You know? 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:48.000 So it's like I have to look at those things. 0:10:48.000 --> 0:10:50.360 But there are still times when I have to do 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.480 you know, inventory check ins with myself or like or 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.400 what's coming up or you know, And but what would 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:57.960 you say to someone that's like, how do I how 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:00.360 do I trust again? How to put myself back out there? 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:07.520 Well? To trust again is an act of tremendous courage 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:12.560 after it's been violated, and we choose, moment to moment, 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:16.679 day to day, incident to incident, we choose to trust 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.040 and to give them the benefit of the doubt and 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:24.240 take the projection of the person who betrayed us. Do 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:27.080 you know off of that person and see them as 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:32.160 they are and look at them through eyes of appreciation 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:35.079 and gratitude that this is a high integrity person, This 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.000 is a person who values honesty. This is a person 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.480 who's generous of spirit enough that when I am triggered 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:47.079 and I'm having those fearful, suspicious thoughts, that I can 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:50.200 tell the truth about that and they won't make me 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.400 bad and wrong for it. That they'll respect that I 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:58.040 was injured and that I'm in recovery and that it 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:03.200 sometimes takes many months even years to make a full recovery. 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:07.360 But we're a stand for a full recovery is possible. 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.240 And if you have an agreement with this lovely new 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:15.520 person who's in your life, that you you have permission, 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:19.319 you know that you're it's okay for you to have 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:24.280 those moments of fear and that you can speak them 0:12:24.840 --> 0:12:27.520 in a way that he can console you and he 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:32.440 can reassure you, and that he's committed to have an honest, open, 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:35.959 above board relationship and that you two are aligned in 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.679 that value which you didn't have with that other person. 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:44.600 Yeah, and it's it's crazy because I don't have an 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.880 ounce of distrust and you know, he lives in a 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.720 different country, so it's like that it's because of how 0:12:50.760 --> 0:12:54.080 we respect each other. It's so the trust is like 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:57.560 it's been I don't have I don't. I don't not 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:02.080 trust him, like at ounce of me does not not 0:13:02.160 --> 0:13:04.560 trust him. And I think it's again And I don't 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.200 know if that's a piece into your arguing book, But like, 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:09.320 how we respect each other and how we choose our 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:12.400 words together is so different too, And I know that 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.560 takes two people choosing to respect the other person and 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:19.640 to and to and to love. But have you seen that, like, 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.480 is that something that is a trick in your and 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.640 too arguing? Is how you speak to each other? 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.120 Absolutely, and how do you speak to each other really 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:36.520 is a function of your own willingness to live in 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:39.960 the integrity of the truth. So the way the way 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.800 you the words that you use when you speak are 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:48.559 an expression of what your inner values are. And sometimes 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.319 you know, people don't realize how much they're revealing about 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:56.560 themselves when when they when they speak, and particularly when 0:13:57.720 --> 0:14:03.040 they make agreements and promise is that they don't keep. 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.480 And in almost every case that we've seen where there's 0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:16.000 been major fundamental betrayals, there has been a breakdown in 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:20.240 the fundamental level of trust in the relationship. It's been 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:27.200 there since before the event happened that caused the crisis. 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:34.760 And and you know most most couples don't really understand 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:41.440 how damaging it is to create a track record with 0:14:41.560 --> 0:14:48.720 the other person where they don't naturally trust the words 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.840 of their partner. They don't realize that when when promises 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:59.360 are broken, when people are not honest with each other, 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.200 when they do things that are inconsistent with their words, 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:10.600 that this does serious damage. Every time that happens. It 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:16.320 takes the integrity of the relationship down another notch. And 0:15:16.360 --> 0:15:20.560 so people get very suspicious. They start checking each other's phones, 0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:26.920 and they start doing things and doubting that, questioning whether 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.560 or not they can really take the other person's word 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.160 for it. So there's a breakdown in trust, which makes 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:41.040 the relationship very vulnerable to actions that can further jeopardize. 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.720 And every great relationship is built on a foundation of trust. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.640 So there's a whole series of agreements that when we 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.520 know kid and keep them makes that foundation solid. And 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.840 I love the definition. We learned this from Angelusarian that 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:05.280 integrity is having what you think and feel and say 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.880 and do all lined ump is one. So when a 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.360 couple has an agreement to live in integrity, each of 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.680 them as an individual to live a life of integrity 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:21.359 and to have their relationship be about honesty and openness 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:26.000 and integrity. That's a great contract to make. That's the 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.960 kind of a contract that brings out the best in 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:29.560 each other. 0:16:29.960 --> 0:16:33.000 I'm s laughing to myself because when you brought up 0:16:33.040 --> 0:16:35.200 the phone thing, I used to be the worst. Like 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:38.760 I would look in phones. I was because I'm like, 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:40.240 I know I'm gonna find it, I'm gonna find it. 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.400 But it's the only time I've ever looked in someone's 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:46.440 phone in a pass like with my exer next relationship, 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:48.800 is because they've lied to me. So then I'm like, 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:50.920 all right, let me find some more. And that's why, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.040 like and I told my boyfriend. Now I'm like, I don't. 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.760 The second that I feel like I want to look 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.520 at your phone, that's when like there's a problem, because 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.280 I'm like, I don't want to have to ever want 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:05.760 or like have the need or the feeling to look 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:09.880 at your phone like and that's you know, and I don't, 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:12.040 which is great because he hasn't lied to me, right, 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.080 But when I look back in other relationships, I'm going, well, yeah, Jane, 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:16.960 of course you're looking in their phone. They lied to you, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:19.320 Like of course you're going to want to find more evidence, 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:22.959 and it's like the detectiveness comes out again right. 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.440 Which doesn't mean that we are perfect all the time. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:30.840 We sometimes are forgetful, or we're sometimes overtired. We sometimes 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:33.959 make a mistake, but if we own up to it 0:17:34.080 --> 0:17:38.080 right away and put the correction in repair, the trust 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:39.680 doesn't have You. 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.360 Know, something too in your book that I was. 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.199 I was curious to know more about is you know, 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.280 I always say, and this is something that I think 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.520 everyone not everyone, but a lot of people say, my 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.119 mom told me this is you know, when I was 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.400 in relationships, Well, choose pick your battles, choose your battles, 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:58.040 and you say, don't And so I'm curious if you 0:17:58.040 --> 0:17:58.960 can elaborate on that. 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.320 Well, we don't mean that you shouldn't be discerning about 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:09.480 which things you get upset about and which things you 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:15.000 need to talk about. There's a big difference between you know, 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:20.920 having having your feelings hurt because your partner forgot your 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:27.480 birthday and and them having an affair. I mean, one 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.159 of them is quite a bit more serious than the 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:33.199 other one. The thing that we have an issue with 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:37.879 is more semantics than anything else. It's the word battles, 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:42.159 and that is what people how they describe to choose 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:49.200 your battles, pick your battles, and so automatically that predisposes 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.040 people to take an adversarial position. Here, we're going to 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:56.560 be fighting. One of us is going to win, one 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.159 of us is going to lose. This is going to 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:03.399 be a battle. Anticipating having an attitude that anticipates that 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:07.959 kind of an event predisposes you to be on the 0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:13.480 defensive and offensive. So, so you know, we prefer just 0:19:13.600 --> 0:19:17.199 to talk about those places where you know, we're not 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.080 sure is this worth is this a hill worth dying on? 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.760 Is this worth really taking a stand on? Or you know, 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:29.159 maybe maybe not. You know, so you know, we're not 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:32.520 saying don't be discerning. It's discriminating about what you choose 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:37.959 to to talk about. We're just saying, you know, words 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:41.560 can be very powerful and the language that we use 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.600 not only when we're talking to each other, but when 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:48.080 we're thinking it ourselves. You know, Okay, I've got to 0:19:48.160 --> 0:19:50.240 I've got to is this a battle that I want 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:55.040 to fight? So just to kind of frame it in 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:59.920 a way that you're looking at it from a different perspure. 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.640 And I think something that I've like my way of 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:06.080 arguing has changed, where I think I used to always 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.520 want to be right and I would want them to 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.399 get my point, understand my point now learning that not 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:16.159 probably more times than not, they're probably not going to 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.840 understand why I feel X, Y, and Z, but they 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.560 can at least. I think the empathy piece is the 0:20:21.600 --> 0:20:24.840 only piece that I really crave for. And just like 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:27.199 I don't need you to understand it, I don't need 0:20:27.240 --> 0:20:29.119 you to be right or wrong. I just need you 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.480 to listen and maybe be like, how can I help 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.560 you in the future when something like this comes up, Like, 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.360 that's literally all I ask and all I need. 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:44.880 And that's a lot to show that level of respect, 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:49.200 that we make our best effort to hear their point 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.240 of view, which may be really discrepant from our point 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:55.520 of view, to hear their feelings, to hear their needs, 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:59.480 and to show respect. And you mentioned empathy, you know, 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:04.480 and to best we can understand. We won't understand completely 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:08.360 why this is so important to them, But right along 0:21:08.440 --> 0:21:14.480 with the trust building is this sense of this person 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:18.600 respects who I am and my belief system. 0:21:18.800 --> 0:21:19.359 And I. 0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:26.000 Am worthy of having their respect and they are worthy 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:30.760 of having my respect. And we could have very discrepant 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:34.840 points of view, maybe even values that are different, but 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:38.680 we make a space that's big enough to hold them. 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:45.840 And that's really good individuation. Two unique personalities, two people 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:53.240 with process information differently to people with different sore areas. 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.919 Do you know, but that can be a wonderful, wonderful 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:16.440 relationship that we're enriched by our differences, not aggregated by them. 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:20.000 Charlie, I have a question on the guy side. Do 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:21.560 you think that. 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:26.320 Do you think men struggle with empathy more than women? 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:28.879 Well, the problem is that they don't struggle with it. 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:32.840 They don't have it the. 0:22:34.960 --> 0:22:37.440 Yeah, right, they're not conscious enough to realize that it's 0:22:38.280 --> 0:22:42.320 that they've got an empathy deficiency, you know. And I 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.600 don't mean to make light of this, and I do 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:50.720 believe that we're all men and women are all always 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:55.159 doing the best that we can do given the level 0:22:55.520 --> 0:23:01.800 of skill, of consciousness, uh of intelligence that we have 0:23:02.200 --> 0:23:09.680 in that moment, however, and said that we do live 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:15.359 in a culture that reinforces certain traits in men and 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:20.080 certain traits in women, and that values some things in 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:24.200 one gender that it the values in the other gender, 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:32.280 and women tend to be, to get more encouragement to 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:37.679 trust their feelings and to be and to honor the 0:23:37.840 --> 0:23:43.639 value of feelings. Where you know, men and I know 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.880 these are gross generalizations, but there's some truth to them. 0:23:47.280 --> 0:23:54.439 In general, men are more predisposed two relate to things 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:59.440 through our intellect, through our cognitive facilities, through analytics. 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.960 How to fix how to either defend or defend your 0:24:03.040 --> 0:24:04.920 fix is kind of what like I'm like, no, no, no, 0:24:04.960 --> 0:24:07.160 find empathy, not defender fix empathy. 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:12.400 Right, yeah, there's only for most guys. There's only one 0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:15.199 reason why my wife is going to come to me 0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:18.240 with a problem, of course, and that's because she wants 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:20.960 me to fix it. So she hasn't even she doesn't 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:22.920 even get the words out of her mouth. As soon 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:26.199 as I smell that there's a problem here, I'm going 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:28.600 to be offering advice even though she's only spoken for 0:24:28.640 --> 0:24:32.919 three seconds, you know, So, I mean we're wired that way. 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:41.320 So yeah, the question is how how does you know? 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.120 Is it? Is it possible for a guy who has 0:24:45.200 --> 0:24:52.200 been conditioned in this culture for decades to reinforce and 0:24:52.800 --> 0:24:58.359 well to diminish the value of emotions. In fact, not 0:24:58.400 --> 0:25:02.520 only do we got get not get a lot of 0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:06.600 support to develop it, but we kind of demonize emotions, 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:09.840 see it as as a woman's thing, it's a weakness. 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:14.480 We don't want to be too emotional because then will 0:25:14.520 --> 0:25:20.400 appear to be to be weak and not well masculine. 0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:23.960 So I mean that the question, then, I think that 0:25:24.040 --> 0:25:28.000 you're that's implied in your question to me is uh, 0:25:29.080 --> 0:25:29.360 what do. 0:25:29.280 --> 0:25:29.840 We do with this? 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.200 You know, like I said, what do you do with it? 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:33.800