1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,399 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'mheart Radio podcast. 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: Today's episode Whine About It Thursday Therapy. It's going to 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,640 Speaker 2: do with Linda and Charlie Bloom. So they're experts in 4 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 2: the field of relationships. They've been married since nineteen seventy two. 5 00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 2: They've both been trained as seminar leaders, therapists and relationship counselors, 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: and I've been working with individuals, couples and groups since 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five. They have a new book out, which 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: is what we're going to talk about. It's An End 9 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 2: to Arguing, a one oh one valuable lessons for all relationships, 10 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 2: and now more than ever, couples need guidance for navigating 11 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: conflict wisely and skillfully. Drawing on insights from their work 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: with couples since nineteen seventy five, the Blooms offer practical 13 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,599 Speaker 2: tools and strategies that apply to all relationships. An End 14 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 2: to Arguing convincingly shows how destructive conflicts can be avoided 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 2: and provide stimulus for individual and interpersonal growth. They use 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 2: compelling examples from their clinical work and their own fifty 17 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: year marriage, which have had its share of challenges. 18 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 3: I'm excited to get them on because let's just stop 19 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 3: there arguing. Hey guys, I'm Jana. 20 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 4: How are you? 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:06,839 Speaker 5: Things are going good? 22 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 3: Like good? 23 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: Good? Because I know every time it's like people are like, yeah, no, 24 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 2: it's good, but really there's you know, like how are you? 25 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 3: How are you really okay? Especially good? 26 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 5: Especially good. We had a wonderful Easter holiday weekend with 27 00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 5: my son and his girlfriend and my grandkids, and it 28 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 5: was beautiful weather. It's especially enjoyable with all the sunshine 29 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 5: because we've just come out of three weeks of gloom 30 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 5: and rain. 31 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 3: So you must be in California. 32 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 5: We're in California, we're mid coast and Santa Cruz and 33 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 5: so I always enjoy the spring, but after all of 34 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 5: this rain we've had, it's so wonderful to be able 35 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 5: to sit out on the deck in the sun. 36 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 3: And you guys have been married for fifty years? 37 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 4: Is that right, Charlie more than fifty years? Fifty years? 38 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 5: Oh, there you go. 39 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 3: That's why I throw it to you, because I'm like, 40 00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 3: the guys never know. 41 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: Replins, You're right, So okay, I'm really excited to talk 42 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: to you guys. I'm a big this show is a 43 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: big advocate for therapy. I've been doing therapy since I 44 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 2: was pretty much fourteen, but really like diving in just 45 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: with all my childhood stuff and trying to you know 46 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: now that I'm in I got divorced two years ago 47 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 2: and now I'm in a new relationship and I'm so 48 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 2: excited to your book. 49 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 3: It's an end to. 50 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 2: Arguing and just like I love that, and I wonder, 51 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 2: you know, obviously you've been doing clinical work since nineteen 52 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: seventy five, but what is the biggest like, what is 53 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 2: the biggest argument that you've seen in all your years 54 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 2: of doing. 55 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 6: What you do. 56 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 5: I think it's when people feel that their trust has 57 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 5: been betrayed. It doesn't necessarily have to be an affair, 58 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 5: but that's one of the places where it shows up, 59 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 5: and it's just a huge psychic assault. And we're both 60 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 5: from the school of thought that no matter how big 61 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 5: the crisis is in your relationship, if there's motivation on 62 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 5: both sides to learn and grow, that that crisis can 63 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 5: be fueling your tank to have even a deeper trust 64 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 5: and a greater understanding and a more expansive commitment that 65 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 5: you had pre crisis. So we're always working with couples 66 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 5: about where is your motivation. Is your motivation strong enough 67 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 5: to do the kind of repair that's required after trust 68 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 5: has fallen down? 69 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's I mean, that's the number one 70 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 2: reason why my marriage didn't work. 71 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: My ex husband had a bunch of affairs. 72 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 2: And every time that I thought we'd built up lots, 73 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: there'd be another fall, another discovery of something, and that. 74 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 3: Trust could just never get there. 75 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 2: Like I would just about to be like, Okay, I 76 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: think I trust him, and then it was taken away 77 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 2: and then having to kind of rebuild that, And that 78 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 2: went on for about seven years, and I know now 79 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 2: I'm curious, like where I'm at today, and I'm almost 80 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 2: so triggered by trust and wise that I'm like I 81 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 2: can't physically. I'm like, if my boyfriend weren't a lot 82 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,040 Speaker 2: to me, which I don't think he has that at all, but. 83 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 3: Like I would, I don't know if I could ever. 84 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 2: Recover from from that, because it's such the destruction that 85 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: it did. 86 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: And then who I turned into. 87 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: Like I was dating someone post divorce and he had 88 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 2: lied to me about something, and I turned into this 89 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: version of just like. 90 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 3: Someone that wasn't even me. 91 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: I just the control and the like the anger, and 92 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: the like, I didn't even recognize myself and I'm like, okay, 93 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 2: and now I know I could never be with someone 94 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 2: that I cannot trust. But it's like, but then I 95 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 2: see here stories of people that can trust again, I'm like, 96 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 2: I don't know where, like how to how to be 97 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: on the other side of it in a new healthy relationship. 98 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a very subjective thing from person person and 99 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 4: depending upon the situation. But when when we're working with 100 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 4: a person or with a couple around the issue of betrayal, 101 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 4: whether it's sexual infidelity or the betrayal of a very 102 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 4: important promise or commitment or vow that they made, that 103 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 4: it's it's really important to find out first of all, 104 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 4: whether you think whether they think it's even possible to 105 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 4: repair this, because a lot of you know, a lot 106 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 4: of the people that we've dealt with, when we asked 107 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 4: that question, one of them will say, no, it's too late, 108 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:02,479 Speaker 4: it's over, And I mean we won't, you know, we'll 109 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 4: press a little bit into that, but if they're really 110 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: committed to holding that position, which is understandable because when 111 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 4: you've had a betrayal or multiple betrayals, you reach a 112 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 4: point or most people do at some point, you know, 113 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 4: I can't put myself in this position again. 114 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: I can't. 115 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 4: I'm not willing to allow myself to go through this 116 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 4: again because it's ripping me apart. And so the first 117 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 4: thing we've got to find out is whether or not 118 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 4: they even think it's possible. And in the cases where 119 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 4: they both agree it's possible, there's always a big butt yeah. 120 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,560 Speaker 4: But I don't know if we if we can do it, 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 4: I don't know what it's going to require. And but 122 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 4: that's that's that's the beginning. Most people underestimate the damage 123 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 4: that even one trail, never mind multiple betrayals, what that 124 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 4: can do in the amount of time and work and 125 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 4: effort and patience and energy it requires to really do 126 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 4: a thorough repair. They just don't They don't realize it. 127 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 4: And so, you know, you know, sometimes we'll get situations, 128 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 4: I mean, there you'll probably you know, see this, this 129 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 4: doesn't make any sense, but you'll get situations where the 130 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 4: betrayer will apologize and you know, he'll expect often at him, 131 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 4: but it's often it can be her too. She'll expect 132 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 4: forgiveness and let's move on. So, you know, three days 133 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 4: after the affair, you know, she's quote still hurting, still 134 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 4: upset for three months, still hasn't forgiven him. And you know, 135 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 4: even if there's a short period of time like that, 136 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 4: you know, he said, well, you know, you know, come on, 137 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 4: it's been it's been three days, it's been two weeks. 138 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 4: You know, let's get on, get get over this, let's 139 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:15,000 Speaker 4: move on, you know, quit holding onto this. That's one 140 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 4: of the biggest mistakes that people make is putting pressure 141 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: on somebody to forgive them when they ain't close to 142 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 4: being ready to forgive yet there's so much work to do. 143 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 4: It's not saying I'm sorry. 144 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 5: Doesn't cut it. The evidence has to come in that 145 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 5: the person is truly sincerely contrite that they are sorry 146 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 5: that they acted out that way. They violated the trust, 147 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 5: they caused so much suffering, and they're demonstrating with their 148 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 5: high integrity behavior, their honesty, their openness, their their willingness 149 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 5: to reveal rather than conceal. That builds the true us back. 150 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 5: But even when there is a motivation on both sides, 151 00:09:04,880 --> 00:09:07,680 Speaker 5: it can take several months or a year or more. 152 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: That's I remember saying that. 153 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I used to say it's Max and'd be like, 154 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: what are you going to like, when are we going 155 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 2: to move on from this? You keep bringing it up 156 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: and I'm like, well, it's been two months. And what 157 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 2: you don't understand is I think about it every second. 158 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:24,760 Speaker 2: Like first it's every second, and then maybe like in 159 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: a month, I'm like, I think about it every minute, 160 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: or I have I passed by this hotel, or I 161 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: see this, or I'm like that's what you don't get, 162 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: Like you can just be like, okay, done, I apologize, 163 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 2: it's under the rug. It's not for me, like I 164 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 2: see it all the time, Like I can't. I'm trying. 165 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: I'm trying to do my work. But it's like it's 166 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: a my therapist basically. I remember we were in a 167 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: couple's session. He was like, you, she was a passenger 168 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 2: in a car car accident, her legs are chopped off. 169 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: Do you expect that person to be over the fact 170 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,880 Speaker 2: that they don't have legs and there they can't carry themselves. 171 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 4: You know that's a great metaphor, that's great, that's so accurate. 172 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 2: So i'd always be a car crash, Like I'm trying 173 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 2: so moving on right, Like I'm in a happy, loving 174 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:25,200 Speaker 2: relationship now, And how do you how do people, I guess, 175 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 2: not put the face on someone else or like and 176 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: just go in again trusting because a lot of people 177 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 2: are like, how are you able to trust again? And 178 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 2: I always say like, well, it's so different. This is 179 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 2: a you know, I have to remind myself that this 180 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: isn't my ex and how he how my boyfriend shows 181 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 2: up now is wildly different how my ex did? 182 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 3: You know? 183 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: So it's like I have to look at those things. 184 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 2: But there are still times when I have to do 185 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 2: you know, inventory check ins with myself or like or 186 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 2: what's coming up or you know, And but what would 187 00:10:56,440 --> 00:10:57,960 Speaker 2: you say to someone that's like, how do I how 188 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: do I trust again? How to put myself back out there? 189 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 5: Well? To trust again is an act of tremendous courage 190 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 5: after it's been violated, and we choose, moment to moment, 191 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 5: day to day, incident to incident, we choose to trust 192 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 5: and to give them the benefit of the doubt and 193 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 5: take the projection of the person who betrayed us. Do 194 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 5: you know off of that person and see them as 195 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 5: they are and look at them through eyes of appreciation 196 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,079 Speaker 5: and gratitude that this is a high integrity person, This 197 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 5: is a person who values honesty. This is a person 198 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 5: who's generous of spirit enough that when I am triggered 199 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 5: and I'm having those fearful, suspicious thoughts, that I can 200 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 5: tell the truth about that and they won't make me 201 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 5: bad and wrong for it. That they'll respect that I 202 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 5: was injured and that I'm in recovery and that it 203 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 5: sometimes takes many months even years to make a full recovery. 204 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 5: But we're a stand for a full recovery is possible. 205 00:12:08,040 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 5: And if you have an agreement with this lovely new 206 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 5: person who's in your life, that you you have permission, 207 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 5: you know that you're it's okay for you to have 208 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 5: those moments of fear and that you can speak them 209 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 5: in a way that he can console you and he 210 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 5: can reassure you, and that he's committed to have an honest, open, 211 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 5: above board relationship and that you two are aligned in 212 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 5: that value which you didn't have with that other person. 213 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's crazy because I don't have an 214 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 2: ounce of distrust and you know, he lives in a 215 00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 2: different country, so it's like that it's because of how 216 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 2: we respect each other. It's so the trust is like 217 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: it's been I don't have I don't. I don't not 218 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 2: trust him, like at ounce of me does not not 219 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 2: trust him. And I think it's again And I don't 220 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: know if that's a piece into your arguing book, But like, 221 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 2: how we respect each other and how we choose our 222 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,400 Speaker 2: words together is so different too, And I know that 223 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 2: takes two people choosing to respect the other person and 224 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 2: to and to and to love. But have you seen that, like, 225 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 2: is that something that is a trick in your and 226 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 2: too arguing? Is how you speak to each other? 227 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 4: Absolutely, and how do you speak to each other really 228 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 4: is a function of your own willingness to live in 229 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 4: the integrity of the truth. So the way the way 230 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 4: you the words that you use when you speak are 231 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:48,559 Speaker 4: an expression of what your inner values are. And sometimes 232 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 4: you know, people don't realize how much they're revealing about 233 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:56,560 Speaker 4: themselves when when they when they speak, and particularly when 234 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 4: they make agreements and promise is that they don't keep. 235 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 4: And in almost every case that we've seen where there's 236 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 4: been major fundamental betrayals, there has been a breakdown in 237 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 4: the fundamental level of trust in the relationship. It's been 238 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 4: there since before the event happened that caused the crisis. 239 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:34,760 Speaker 4: And and you know most most couples don't really understand 240 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 4: how damaging it is to create a track record with 241 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 4: the other person where they don't naturally trust the words 242 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 4: of their partner. They don't realize that when when promises 243 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 4: are broken, when people are not honest with each other, 244 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 4: when they do things that are inconsistent with their words, 245 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 4: that this does serious damage. Every time that happens. It 246 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 4: takes the integrity of the relationship down another notch. And 247 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 4: so people get very suspicious. They start checking each other's phones, 248 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 4: and they start doing things and doubting that, questioning whether 249 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 4: or not they can really take the other person's word 250 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: for it. So there's a breakdown in trust, which makes 251 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 4: the relationship very vulnerable to actions that can further jeopardize. 252 00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 5: And every great relationship is built on a foundation of trust. 253 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 5: So there's a whole series of agreements that when we 254 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:55,520 Speaker 5: know kid and keep them makes that foundation solid. And 255 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 5: I love the definition. We learned this from Angelusarian that 256 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 5: integrity is having what you think and feel and say 257 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 5: and do all lined ump is one. So when a 258 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 5: couple has an agreement to live in integrity, each of 259 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 5: them as an individual to live a life of integrity 260 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:21,359 Speaker 5: and to have their relationship be about honesty and openness 261 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 5: and integrity. That's a great contract to make. That's the 262 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 5: kind of a contract that brings out the best in 263 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 5: each other. 264 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 2: I'm s laughing to myself because when you brought up 265 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 2: the phone thing, I used to be the worst. Like 266 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 2: I would look in phones. I was because I'm like, 267 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 2: I know I'm gonna find it, I'm gonna find it. 268 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: But it's the only time I've ever looked in someone's 269 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: phone in a pass like with my exer next relationship, 270 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 2: is because they've lied to me. So then I'm like, 271 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 2: all right, let me find some more. And that's why, 272 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: like and I told my boyfriend. Now I'm like, I don't. 273 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 2: The second that I feel like I want to look 274 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: at your phone, that's when like there's a problem, because 275 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't want to have to ever want 276 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 2: or like have the need or the feeling to look 277 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 2: at your phone like and that's you know, and I don't, 278 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 2: which is great because he hasn't lied to me, right, 279 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: But when I look back in other relationships, I'm going, well, yeah, Jane, 280 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 2: of course you're looking in their phone. They lied to you, 281 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 2: Like of course you're going to want to find more evidence, 282 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,959 Speaker 2: and it's like the detectiveness comes out again right. 283 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 5: Which doesn't mean that we are perfect all the time. 284 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 5: We sometimes are forgetful, or we're sometimes overtired. We sometimes 285 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,959 Speaker 5: make a mistake, but if we own up to it 286 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 5: right away and put the correction in repair, the trust 287 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 5: doesn't have You. 288 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,360 Speaker 1: Know, something too in your book that I was. 289 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 2: I was curious to know more about is you know, 290 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 2: I always say, and this is something that I think 291 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 2: everyone not everyone, but a lot of people say, my 292 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 2: mom told me this is you know, when I was 293 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 2: in relationships, Well, choose pick your battles, choose your battles, 294 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 2: and you say, don't And so I'm curious if you 295 00:17:58,040 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 2: can elaborate on that. 296 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 4: Well, we don't mean that you shouldn't be discerning about 297 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 4: which things you get upset about and which things you 298 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 4: need to talk about. There's a big difference between you know, 299 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 4: having having your feelings hurt because your partner forgot your 300 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 4: birthday and and them having an affair. I mean, one 301 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 4: of them is quite a bit more serious than the 302 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,199 Speaker 4: other one. The thing that we have an issue with 303 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 4: is more semantics than anything else. It's the word battles, 304 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,159 Speaker 4: and that is what people how they describe to choose 305 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:49,200 Speaker 4: your battles, pick your battles, and so automatically that predisposes 306 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 4: people to take an adversarial position. Here, we're going to 307 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 4: be fighting. One of us is going to win, one 308 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 4: of us is going to lose. This is going to 309 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 4: be a battle. Anticipating having an attitude that anticipates that 310 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 4: kind of an event predisposes you to be on the 311 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 4: defensive and offensive. So, so you know, we prefer just 312 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,199 Speaker 4: to talk about those places where you know, we're not 313 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 4: sure is this worth is this a hill worth dying on? 314 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 4: Is this worth really taking a stand on? Or you know, 315 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 4: maybe maybe not. You know, so you know, we're not 316 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 4: saying don't be discerning. It's discriminating about what you choose 317 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:37,959 Speaker 4: to to talk about. We're just saying, you know, words 318 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 4: can be very powerful and the language that we use 319 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 4: not only when we're talking to each other, but when 320 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 4: we're thinking it ourselves. You know, Okay, I've got to 321 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 4: I've got to is this a battle that I want 322 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 4: to fight? So just to kind of frame it in 323 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 4: a way that you're looking at it from a different perspure. 324 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 2: And I think something that I've like my way of 325 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 2: arguing has changed, where I think I used to always 326 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: want to be right and I would want them to 327 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 2: get my point, understand my point now learning that not 328 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 2: probably more times than not, they're probably not going to 329 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: understand why I feel X, Y, and Z, but they 330 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: can at least. I think the empathy piece is the 331 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: only piece that I really crave for. And just like 332 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: I don't need you to understand it, I don't need 333 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 2: you to be right or wrong. I just need you 334 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: to listen and maybe be like, how can I help 335 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 2: you in the future when something like this comes up, Like, 336 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 2: that's literally all I ask and all I need. 337 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 5: And that's a lot to show that level of respect, 338 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 5: that we make our best effort to hear their point 339 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,240 Speaker 5: of view, which may be really discrepant from our point 340 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 5: of view, to hear their feelings, to hear their needs, 341 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 5: and to show respect. And you mentioned empathy, you know, 342 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 5: and to best we can understand. We won't understand completely 343 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 5: why this is so important to them, But right along 344 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 5: with the trust building is this sense of this person 345 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 5: respects who I am and my belief system. 346 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 3: And I. 347 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 5: Am worthy of having their respect and they are worthy 348 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 5: of having my respect. And we could have very discrepant 349 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 5: points of view, maybe even values that are different, but 350 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 5: we make a space that's big enough to hold them. 351 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 5: And that's really good individuation. Two unique personalities, two people 352 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 5: with process information differently to people with different sore areas. 353 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 5: Do you know, but that can be a wonderful, wonderful 354 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 5: relationship that we're enriched by our differences, not aggregated by them. 355 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: Charlie, I have a question on the guy side. Do 356 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 1: you think that. 357 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 2: Do you think men struggle with empathy more than women? 358 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 4: Well, the problem is that they don't struggle with it. 359 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 3: They don't have it the. 360 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, right, they're not conscious enough to realize that it's 361 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 4: that they've got an empathy deficiency, you know. And I 362 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 4: don't mean to make light of this, and I do 363 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 4: believe that we're all men and women are all always 364 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,159 Speaker 4: doing the best that we can do given the level 365 00:22:55,520 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 4: of skill, of consciousness, uh of intelligence that we have 366 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 4: in that moment, however, and said that we do live 367 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 4: in a culture that reinforces certain traits in men and 368 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 4: certain traits in women, and that values some things in 369 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 4: one gender that it the values in the other gender, 370 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 4: and women tend to be, to get more encouragement to 371 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:37,679 Speaker 4: trust their feelings and to be and to honor the 372 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 4: value of feelings. Where you know, men and I know 373 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 4: these are gross generalizations, but there's some truth to them. 374 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 4: In general, men are more predisposed two relate to things 375 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 4: through our intellect, through our cognitive facilities, through analytics. 376 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 2: How to fix how to either defend or defend your 377 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 2: fix is kind of what like I'm like, no, no, no, 378 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 2: find empathy, not defender fix empathy. 379 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 4: Right, yeah, there's only for most guys. There's only one 380 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 4: reason why my wife is going to come to me 381 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 4: with a problem, of course, and that's because she wants 382 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 4: me to fix it. So she hasn't even she doesn't 383 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 4: even get the words out of her mouth. As soon 384 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 4: as I smell that there's a problem here, I'm going 385 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 4: to be offering advice even though she's only spoken for 386 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 4: three seconds, you know, So, I mean we're wired that way. 387 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 4: So yeah, the question is how how does you know? 388 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 4: Is it? Is it possible for a guy who has 389 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 4: been conditioned in this culture for decades to reinforce and 390 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 4: well to diminish the value of emotions. In fact, not 391 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 4: only do we got get not get a lot of 392 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 4: support to develop it, but we kind of demonize emotions, 393 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 4: see it as as a woman's thing, it's a weakness. 394 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 4: We don't want to be too emotional because then will 395 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 4: appear to be to be weak and not well masculine. 396 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,960 Speaker 4: So I mean that the question, then, I think that 397 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 4: you're that's implied in your question to me is uh, 398 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 4: what do. 399 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 5: We do with this? 400 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 4: You know, like I said, what do you do with it? 401 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 4: When that's what you're met with? 402 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 5: So I would like. 403 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 6: To speak to since this is a signature strength of 404 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 6: most women, we have a sense of responsibility to appeal 405 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 6: to their enlightened self interest about why it's going to 406 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 6: be fabulous for our relationship for both of us to 407 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 6: develop our empathy, the depth of understanding and the depth 408 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 6: of closeness that comes with that kind of. 409 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 5: Heart talk, you know, feeling, and that we reinforce it 410 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 5: like mad that we find the sensitivity in our men attractive, 411 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 5: that we don't see it as weakness. We see it 412 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 5: as being real and we value it, and that when 413 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 5: we have that depth of connection, do you know we're 414 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 5: going to argue less and have. 415 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: Pross And that's what the guy likes to hear so 416 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 2: it's a win. I'm going to lean in sure, because 417 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 2: then I get to really lean in later there you go, 418 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 2: it's like it's like, you know what I mean, it's perfect. 419 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: Is what is one of the. 420 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: Best arguing tips that you guys have in the book? 421 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 2: One of them, not all of them, because we want 422 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 2: people to read it. 423 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 4: So we distinguish an argument, which is, you know, the 424 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 4: kind of arguments that we're talking about are not simply 425 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 4: differences of opinion. There's a big difference between you know, 426 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 4: having two different perspectives, two different points of view about something, 427 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 4: and that's going to happen. And that's not a problem. 428 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 4: That is something that's inherent in all relationships, particularly in 429 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 4: close relationships. There are things that we're on the same 430 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 4: page about, and then there are things that are we're 431 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 4: on different pages about. So we're concerned about it. And 432 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 4: you know, you've probably noticed that in the book. There's 433 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 4: a certain kind of an argument that is really potentially 434 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 4: very destructive, and that is when there's an issue that 435 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 4: comes up for people that's very loaded for one or 436 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,160 Speaker 4: both of them, you know, perhaps because of some experiences 437 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 4: they've had in the past, but they're really sensitive to it. 438 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,239 Speaker 4: And they have a very strong defensive position on it 439 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,120 Speaker 4: about how they want to deal with it. And when 440 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 4: the other person confronts them with a different point of 441 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 4: view that threatens their security, then they they get triggered. 442 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 4: So what I mean by triggered is that they get 443 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 4: emotionally activated in a way that makes it very difficult 444 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 4: for them to continue to have a rational discussion. Yeah, right, right, 445 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 4: And and so one of the things that's necessary when 446 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 4: they start to move into that territory is immediately as 447 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 4: soon as they recognize it in themselves, one of them 448 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 4: to say, WHOA, I am triggered, just to acknowledge, you know, 449 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 4: what they're experiencing, and saying something that simple, just identifying 450 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 4: the experience can itself just cool things down enough to 451 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 4: begin to bring a little more rational rationality into the 452 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 4: conversation so it doesn't keep deteriorating into a deeper and 453 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 4: deeper sense of conflict. You know, we want we want 454 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 4: to diffuse the potential for things going down the rabbit 455 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 4: hole and for both people amplifying their fear and their 456 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 4: anger and getting into more conflict, or else one or 457 00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 4: both of them just withdrawing and disengaging, because that's that 458 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 4: doesn't work either. So so we want we want people 459 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 4: to be willing to just own it, to name it, 460 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 4: you know, when when they feel like, whoa, this is uh, 461 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 4: I need to take a break here, or you know, 462 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 4: we need to do something here to stabilize I need 463 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 4: to do something to stabilize myself. It's not a good 464 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 4: idea when you recognize the other person is really inflame, 465 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: try to get them to calm down. Know, somebody tells 466 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 4: me to calm down. The last thing I'm going to. 467 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 2: Do is it's like telling your kid you're tired. I'm 468 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 2: not tired, Like, no, you're actually so tired. 469 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 4: And that's a good that's a good analogy because when 470 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 4: those things happen, we are acting like a kid. We're 471 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 4: acting like a five year old. You know, we have 472 00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 4: lost connection to our neocortex brain that can analyze uh 473 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 4: and relate with more skillfulness to differences. We don't have 474 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 4: access to that. So yeah, I mean that's you know, 475 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 4: we got to first of all, just poled down enough 476 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 4: to be able to engage rationally. And if we can't 477 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 4: do that while we're in the midst of this, we 478 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 4: need to take a break, and we write about that 479 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:52,800 Speaker 4: in several checks. 480 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 2: There's something too that I remember that was really helpful 481 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 2: when I was doing couple therapy with my axes. So 482 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 2: I have, like, you know, my abandonment issues and fears, 483 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: and so what our therapists did was they put a 484 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: when when someone's activated and they need to take a 485 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: time out, it's like, hey, I'm leaving right now, but 486 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 2: I will be back. Can we like set like a 487 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,239 Speaker 2: time like I'll be back in thirty minutes or I 488 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 2: need like essential. 489 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 4: That's essential. You've got to reassure the other person that 490 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 4: I'm going to be back and to say when I'm 491 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 4: going to be back, because if you just leave, that 492 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: just blames their abandonments. 493 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 2: And even if you don't, it's like just to be 494 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 2: left or to have a door, you know, and I'm 495 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 2: against all door slammings now, but you know, just being 496 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 2: like I need a minute and it's going to be 497 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: I'm going to say thirty minutes and then I will 498 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 2: come back, and let's try to like, you know, that's 499 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 2: something that I'm hopeful to take in to you know, 500 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 2: this this one. 501 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, And we have a kind of a guideline that 502 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 5: we offer when we teach our workshops. And when we 503 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 5: work with couples that twenty four hours is the absolute 504 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 5: maximum at a time. And if you tend to be 505 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 5: a stuffer, do you know you need to come back 506 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 5: sooner rather than later. But at twenty four hours is 507 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 5: the absolute. 508 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 4: Outside But then should that should be rare that you 509 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 4: could take anything that long known or is better than later. Yeah, 510 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 4: it usually doesn't take more than you know, half an 511 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 4: hour or an hour to regulate. 512 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 5: Yourself, or maybe maybe not even half an hour, Maybe 513 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 5: just rest is enough. But to make an agreement in 514 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,600 Speaker 5: place that you know, if you're a shout, if you're threatening, 515 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 5: if you have a tendency to be braddy and bullying, 516 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 5: that you will calm yourself down before you engage in 517 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 5: the conversation again. And if you tend to be a stuffer, 518 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 5: and you can go off and you can go days, 519 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 5: some people go weeks and they don't they don't re engage. 520 00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 6: That you have an. 521 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 5: Agreement in place that you're going to come back, and 522 00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 5: so we all know, you know which side of the 523 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 5: spectrum we're on, whether we're a blurner or whether we're 524 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 5: a stuffer, And that's really important to have that conversation 525 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 5: and to have an agreement in place before the disruption 526 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 5: where you're founded with feeling comes up, so you already 527 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 5: have that to turn to. 528 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:28,720 Speaker 1: I love that. 529 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: There's a reason this book is a bestseller because we obviously, 530 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 2: you know, we're all in relationships, whether it's friendship or 531 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: husband or you know, romantic relationships, and the arguing there's 532 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 2: there's we want an end arguing, and you guys have 533 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 2: put that in a book. So Linda and Charlie, thank 534 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: you so much for coming on, and everybody go get 535 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,240 Speaker 2: an end too arguing now because it is a book 536 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 2: that valuable lessons for all relationships. Thank you guys so much. 537 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:56,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, we enjoyed the interview. 538 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 2: Thank you really appreciate you both. And well we'll have 539 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 2: you back on for more therapy one time. 540 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, I love it. Thanks guys, appreciate you.