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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Kitty Kuric and this is next question

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Speaker 1: Megan McCain. First of all, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: being here.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Katie, thank you so much for having me.

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Speaker 2: And I've known you so long and I'm such a

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Speaker 2: fan of all your work and I'm so gladded to

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Speaker 2: be here. I actually just saw some clips of an

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Speaker 2: interview you just did with Jen Zaki that's all over

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Speaker 2: the internet, and I.

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Speaker 3: Went to Played eight with a girlfriend over the weekend.

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Speaker 2: She was like, I just saw this amazing interview with

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Speaker 2: Katie Kirk and I was like, I'm going on a

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Speaker 2: Joe next week.

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Speaker 1: So well, you know, I really appreciate you sitting down

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Speaker 1: with me because, Megan, I know we disagree on a

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Speaker 1: number of issues, but I don't know about you. I

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Speaker 1: really don't want to live in a country where half

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Speaker 1: the population doesn't talk to the other half of the country.

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Speaker 1: So what my goal today is for you and I

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Speaker 1: to hopefully model a conversation marked by respect, kindness, and

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Speaker 1: open heartedness, which really isn't a word, but I think

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Speaker 1: in a way, I want you and I to be

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Speaker 1: a bit of a social experiment for our time. So

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Speaker 1: thank you for doing this, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 1: We have so much to talk about in so little time,

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Speaker 1: so I thought I would just dive right in and

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Speaker 1: ask you about the Instagram post. I'm on Instagram, I

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Speaker 1: think eighteen hours a day. Sadly, I've got a real problem, Megan,

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Speaker 1: But I was struck by your post. I think it

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Speaker 1: was three days after the election, and I'm going to

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Speaker 1: read the first two paragraphs if I could, and then

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Speaker 1: we can talk about it. You wrote, I cannot express

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Speaker 1: how validated I feel about my politics, my values, and

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Speaker 1: my record of warning Democrats publicly for over a decade

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Speaker 1: that their elitism, socialism, and overall social insanity is alienating

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Speaker 1: the country as well as just is incredibly dangerous and

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Speaker 1: anti American on a policy level. My entire adult life,

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Speaker 1: I have had abuse directed at me simply for being

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Speaker 1: a p out strong conservative woman who wouldn't back down.

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Speaker 1: I've been yelled at in restaurants and socially ostracized almost

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Speaker 1: everywhere except in conservative circles, been subjected to toxic work

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Speaker 1: environments beyond comprehension, been accused of being a traitor to

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Speaker 1: my gender, and more than I have time to write here,

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Speaker 1: all because I've refused to be quiet, and I am

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Speaker 1: a Republican woman. You know. I read that, and I wondered, actually,

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Speaker 1: I don't think I read that many comments because I

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Speaker 1: think you had just posted it. But tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the reaction to your post.

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Speaker 2: Well, I didn't expect it to like get quite as

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Speaker 2: much attention as it did. I think it's one of

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Speaker 2: my most the most comments written on a post ever

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Speaker 2: except for things relating to my dad when he had cancer.

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Speaker 3: It came off afterward.

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Speaker 2: I have some friends in my life who really didn't

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Speaker 2: like it, and they thought it was like tonally sort

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Speaker 2: of not appropriate. But I feel like I was just

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Speaker 2: really letting off feelings that I've felt for a really

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Speaker 2: long time, and I don't normally I try and be

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Speaker 2: like a Christian woman who shows a lot of grace,

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Speaker 2: But in that moment, I was like, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I have been warning that a tsunami is coming for

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Speaker 2: a really long time and been told I'm crazy, and

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Speaker 2: then the tsunami came, and it's like I've been trying

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Speaker 2: to tell everybody this is going to happen, and Trump's

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Speaker 2: gonna get reelected, and people really hate what's going on

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Speaker 2: in the country, and you know, I've basically been not everywhere.

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Speaker 2: It's an exaggeration. I'm a little dramatic Katie in general.

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Speaker 3: So but I just.

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Speaker 2: Feel like, you know, I've taken a lot of heat

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Speaker 2: from a lot of people, and a lot of personal

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Speaker 2: things have happened to me in the past few I'd say,

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Speaker 2: like five years, ten years, whatever, And I just was

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Speaker 2: trying to say that like, if we don't, if we

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Speaker 2: don't reset in general in the country, that this is

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Speaker 2: only going to get worse. And I did up my

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Speaker 2: own podcast with a friend of mine who's very progressive,

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Speaker 2: and we discussed the post and I was like, sometimes

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Speaker 2: I ever shout and void person, but in that moment,

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Speaker 2: just processing the election, I was like, a lot of

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Speaker 2: things I said were going to happen came true.

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Speaker 1: I wondered, Megan, if you could share a little more

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Speaker 1: about your experience being a conservative woman in media. You

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Speaker 1: were the token conservative, if you will, on the View

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Speaker 1: from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty one. Can you talk

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Speaker 1: a little bit about that experience over those four years?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean people are always curious about this, and

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Speaker 2: I understand because there's a lot of like sort of

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Speaker 2: storied history.

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Speaker 3: I did not have a great ending in the show.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm really proud of the fact that I'm one

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Speaker 2: of two hosts in the history of the show that

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Speaker 2: quit and warsn't fired me and Meredith Viera in the

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Speaker 2: twenty eight year history. That's pretty cool to leave on

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Speaker 2: your own fruition. You know, I've been the token conservative

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Speaker 2: on many shows. I was a contributor on MSNBC. I

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Speaker 2: did this millennial talk show with our friend Jacob sober

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Speaker 2: Off in LA and I was always the token conservative.

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Speaker 2: And for a long time it was fun where I

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Speaker 2: liked sort of working with respectful people that wanted to

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Speaker 2: hear my opinion.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to hear theirs.

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Speaker 2: And then in the era of Trump, things really shifted

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Speaker 2: where I kind of felt like I was an avatar

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Speaker 2: for all the hate and anger and frustration about Trump

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Speaker 2: being filtered onto me. And when I started working at

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Speaker 2: the show, I was very nervous to work there in

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Speaker 2: general because it doesn't have a great reputation, but my

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Speaker 2: dad talked me into it. My dad was like, you

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Speaker 2: can't not do this. It's a huge platform. It's ABC News.

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Speaker 2: You know better than anyone the power of network television,

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Speaker 2: and as time went on in the Trump administration, things

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Speaker 2: just got progressively ugly or both on the show, on

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Speaker 2: the content we were making, and then backstage as well.

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Speaker 2: And in that period of time, I always tell people

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Speaker 2: I was like not the best version of myself for

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Speaker 2: a lot of different reasons. I've had fertility struggles. I've

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Speaker 2: had three miscarriages. I had my first one when I

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Speaker 2: was on the show. My dad was dying of brain cancer.

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Speaker 2: I was a caregiver to him. There's a lot of

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Speaker 2: like drama in my life right at the same time

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Speaker 2: that Trump was attacking my family publicly, so I I

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Speaker 2: was just very emotional at the time in general. But

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Speaker 2: I felt like I wasn't given grace from the people

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Speaker 2: running a network or my colleagues at the time, and

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Speaker 2: it's very tragic that it ended the way it did.

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Speaker 2: I really tried to sort of save myself and save

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Speaker 2: what I felt like was okay for the show. But

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Speaker 2: now there's a report out in the New York Post

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Speaker 2: yesterday that ABC executives are panicking because they don't have

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Speaker 2: a real conservative person on the show and they're looking

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Speaker 2: for someone to fill that void. And I was always saying,

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Speaker 2: you may not like it, but it's an important role

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Speaker 2: and the demonization of Republican women, I think is there's

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Speaker 2: a direct through line between how I'm treated or was.

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Speaker 2: And again this is a broad generalization. There's lovely people

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Speaker 2: in the media on the left that are very kind

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Speaker 2: to me. This is just my specific experience on the show. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but I think there's a direct line between seeing the

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Speaker 2: treatment of people like me and Trump now.

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Speaker 1: And do you feel like you were just sort of

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Speaker 1: perpetually disrespected. I have to say I'm not a regular

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Speaker 1: watcher of the view, but I remember when you were

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Speaker 1: on and you were outnumbered, and did you feel that

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Speaker 1: people were open to you or that they automatically attacked

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Speaker 1: you if you opened your mouth.

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Speaker 2: The hardest part about we're here on that show is

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Speaker 2: actually how bad the leaking in the press was. In

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Speaker 2: the first two weeks that I worked there, there was

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Speaker 2: an article in the Daily Mail in the New York

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Speaker 2: Post about how my nickname on the show was Elsa

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Speaker 2: the ice Princess because I was an ice bitch.

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Speaker 3: That's a direct quote.

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Speaker 2: I've been working there, I think ten days at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I could never have any private experiences backstage without

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Speaker 2: it automatically going to a tabloid. Interestingly enough, that immediately

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Speaker 2: ended when I left. And it's hard to maintain any

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Speaker 2: kind of trust when you're already feeling like an outsider,

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Speaker 2: and then you have a private conversation saying it's there

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Speaker 2: was another article I remember because you know you remember

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Speaker 2: when it's about you.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, believe me. I know the feeling.

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Speaker 3: It's horrible.

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Speaker 2: It's really horrible to be because I'm you know, I

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Speaker 2: would love I'm a communicator.

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Speaker 3: I would love to work things out privately.

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Speaker 2: But when you're having a conversation and you're saying it's

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Speaker 2: so hard to be a Republican on the show, and

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Speaker 2: then I can always remember when I left the show,

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Speaker 2: going home or going to dinner with friends, and there

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Speaker 2: was always like a three hour period of time where

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Speaker 2: I would be so tense.

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Speaker 3: What's going to hit a tabloid about me? That's ugly?

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Speaker 2: And it's just it's just not a productive way to

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Speaker 2: be in any any place. So yeah, and I felt

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Speaker 2: very misunderstood by people, and it's like it's tragic. Look,

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Speaker 2: I'm forty, I'm a big girl. I don't regret doing it.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't like undo it, but Well, one of the

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Speaker 2: last conversations I had with them was you really need

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Speaker 2: to fix this anger and this aggression towards women who

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Speaker 2: are unlike you, and it, you know, obviously didn't make

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Speaker 2: any difference at all.

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Speaker 1: You know, I know, Megan, your lifelong conservative, but you're

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Speaker 1: not really a part of the MAGA movement. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you are what they call in Arizona a McCain Republican,

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Speaker 1: and that's not necessarily said in a complimentary way these days.

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Speaker 1: I saw you speak at a woman's conference that I

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Speaker 1: was also at. Can you talk about what has happened

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Speaker 1: to today's GOP and the MAGA takeover of the party

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Speaker 1: and what it's been like for you personally to witness this.

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Speaker 2: Well, I always joke there are dozens of us. There

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Speaker 2: are dozens of McCain Republicans. That's like a meme from Twitter.

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Speaker 2: There are dozens of us. Look, I have my personal

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Speaker 2: reasons for not liking President Trump that everyone is aware of,

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Speaker 2: and I also have policy and just character reasons for

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Speaker 2: not liking Trump that a lot of people in the

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Speaker 2: country do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, McCain Republicans are thrown around.

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Speaker 2: By I just use the example of Carrie Lake, the

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Speaker 2: woman who ran for governor and lost, and who just

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Speaker 2: ran for Senate and lost, and she literally said when

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Speaker 2: she was on the campaign trail, if you're a McCain Republican,

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Speaker 2: get the hell out, and then she ended up losing

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Speaker 2: by around I think it was twelve points, which statistically

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Speaker 2: they're twelve percent of people in Arizona that consider themselves

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Speaker 2: McCain Republicans. So do that math whatever you want. Right, Look,

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Speaker 2: it's complicated and it's difficult. I have friends who are

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Speaker 2: more than likely going to work in the Trump administration,

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Speaker 2: and I literally had a conversation with one recently where

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Speaker 2: I was like, I hope your relationship with me doesn't

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Speaker 2: hurt you. And it's a horrible true and the same

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Speaker 2: way that like the leftist tribal, the right is just

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Speaker 2: comparably tribal as well in all ways. And it's sad

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Speaker 2: and it has been personally difficult and also just politically

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Speaker 2: bizarre to feel like you've done something wrong because I'm

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Speaker 2: not a maga kool aid drinking populist and I'm never

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Speaker 2: going to be.

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Speaker 3: And that's okay. Like it, it's okay.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I've done anything wrong, but it certainly

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Speaker 2: makes you unpopular in a lot of spaces.

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Speaker 1: Well, why do you think it caught fire in the

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Speaker 1: way it did Megan? You know that, as you say,

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Speaker 1: there are dozens of McCain Republicans, you could say the

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Speaker 1: same thing about you know, Mitt Romney Republican. I guess

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Speaker 1: what we used to call Rockefeller Republicans. Right. It's so

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Speaker 1: fascinating how the parties have really been turned upside down.

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Speaker 1: But why do you think Donald Trump has such a

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Speaker 1: hold on so many people in this country?

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Speaker 3: I mean a lot of different reasons.

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Speaker 2: I think the one of the smartest things he's ever

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Speaker 2: said is, They're not after me, They're after you. I'm

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Speaker 2: just in the way. And I think there's just a

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Speaker 2: feeling of a lot of people in the country who

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Speaker 2: you know, are living paycheck to paycheck, who have been

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Speaker 2: screaming at the top of their lungs that inflation's killing

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Speaker 2: them and they can't I have a friend in my

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Speaker 2: life who couldn't go on a summer vacation this summer

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Speaker 2: because of the amount of money she was paying extra

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Speaker 2: and gas and inflation and interest rates on her. I

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Speaker 2: believe health insurance can't remember sid a health or car insurance,

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Speaker 2: And you know her husband's gainfully employed. So I think

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Speaker 2: there was just a feeling that people are not being heard,

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Speaker 2: the needs of the lower middle class are not being addressed,

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Speaker 2: and that Trump continues to say I'm an outsider, I

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Speaker 2: am gonna fight for you, and people believed it. And

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Speaker 2: I just think there's been a lot of mistakes done

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Speaker 2: along the way, but from Democrats running for office and

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Speaker 2: governing in a world they want to see exist and

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Speaker 2: not the one that actually exists.

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Speaker 1: You know, I have thought about your dad so often,

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Speaker 1: Megan during this election cycle. I'm sure you think about

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Speaker 1: him every day, but I was one of many people

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Speaker 1: who deeply admired him for his character, his service, and

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Speaker 1: of course his wicket sense of humor. You know, you

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Speaker 1: talked about personal reasons for disliking President Trump because he

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Speaker 1: has disrespected your father repeatedly. He said he's not a

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Speaker 1: war hero because he was captured. I like people that

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Speaker 1: weren't captured. He was furious when your father was the

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Speaker 1: deciding vote to not repeal Obamacare. He reportedly was apoplectic

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Speaker 1: when the flags were flown at half masted after your dad.

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Speaker 1: I think it's actually half staff if it's on ground

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Speaker 1: and half masked if it's at sea half staff. After

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Speaker 1: your dad died, your Dad's specifically instructed he did not

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Speaker 1: want Donald Trump at his funeral and all of this,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you loved your dad so much. I love

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Speaker 1: my dad so much. I can't imagine how painful, honestly,

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Speaker 1: all of this was for you. So I'm curious, and

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Speaker 1: You've probably been asked this a million times, but what

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Speaker 1: do you think your dad would think of Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: campaign this go round? He died in twenty eighteen, so

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Speaker 1: he didn't see this Donald Trump two point zero, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of Trump on steroids. Actually would he make

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Speaker 1: of it?

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Speaker 3: This is not his style.

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Speaker 2: And I think anyone that's ever seen anything that he

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Speaker 2: ever did he was always so bipartisan and trying to

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Speaker 2: work with the other side to his detriment. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he was called a rhino and attacked by people like

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Speaker 2: Rushlan Ball throughout his entire career. So even when he

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Speaker 2: was alive, he was sort of the McCain Republican figure

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Speaker 2: that he is now.

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Speaker 3: He would be.

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Speaker 2: Heartbroken, but he also was stoic in everything. And I

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Speaker 2: remember when Trump was first elected. I was very scared

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Speaker 2: because that time I did not I thought he had

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Speaker 2: a likelihood of winning.

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Speaker 3: I didn't think you.

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Speaker 2: But then secularly I was like, I don't think he's

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Speaker 2: really going to pull it off. You know, it's Hillary

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Speaker 2: Clinton he's ringing against. And I remember the next morning

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Speaker 2: calling him and he was like, I know what's going on,

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Speaker 2: Get up and go to your window.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, okay.

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Speaker 2: And I was living a NewYork and I was still

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Speaker 2: single at the time, and I went up and looked

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Speaker 2: out the window and he goes, do you see all

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Speaker 2: those mother blanking pigs flying everywhere? That's what's going on.

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Speaker 2: The pigs are flying, that's happening. And he always maintained this,

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Speaker 2: like really a serbic, dark sense of humor. So I

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Speaker 2: think he would have maintained his acerbic, dark sense of humor.

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Speaker 2: But I think he would have been a conscience for

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Speaker 2: the country and the way he always was. But I

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Speaker 2: also think that he would have had a I think

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Speaker 2: he would have been really demonized the way like Amitt

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Speaker 2: Romney had been.

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Speaker 3: And my dad dying gutted me.

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Speaker 2: And I always feel like the point in my there's

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Speaker 2: like before my dad died and after my dad died,

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Speaker 2: and I didn't become a different person.

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Speaker 3: But it just hardens you and ages you.

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Speaker 2: When you anyone to brain cancer, anyone who's experienced it,

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Speaker 2: you just become a different version of yourself. And there's

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Speaker 2: a part of me that's happy he's not alive to

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Speaker 2: see all this, because it would have broken his heart

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Speaker 2: so badly to see the divisions in the country the

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Speaker 2: way they are.

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Speaker 1: Also, you know, the discourse, and I use that in

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Speaker 1: really big air quotes, because one of many reasons I

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Speaker 1: could not vote for Donald Trump was just the way

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Speaker 1: he conducts himself and comports himself. And I actually wrote

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Speaker 1: something and I harkened back to that campaign stop when

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Speaker 1: someone was trashing Barack Obama and your father defended his opponent.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen.

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Speaker 2: I got to ask you a question.

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Speaker 3: I do not believe in.

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Speaker 2: I can't trust Obama. I have read about him, and

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Speaker 2: he's not He's not he's a he's an air he

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Speaker 2: is not.

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Speaker 3: No, no, ma'am, no, ma'am. He's a decent family man,

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Speaker 3: citizen that I just happened to have disagreements with on

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Speaker 3: fundamental issues. And that's what this campaign is all about.

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Speaker 2: He's not. Thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I so appreciated this decorum and this character that your

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Speaker 1: dad always exhibited. I didn't necessarily agree with all of

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Speaker 1: his policy physicians, but I was so grateful for the

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Speaker 1: way he conducted himself. I mean, there couldn't be a

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Speaker 1: greater contrast between him and Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: He's the last of the great ones, I believe. I

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Speaker 2: think his passing, my husband always says it was a

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Speaker 2: generational shift. It was like the ending of a very

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Speaker 2: specific kind of generation that still cared about character and

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Speaker 2: ethics and morals. And look, he was far from a

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Speaker 2: perfect person. He would say that to your faith, right,

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Speaker 2: sure you a million times you would know that, like,

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Speaker 2: he certainly had his fault.

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Speaker 3: But I worship my dad, so.

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Speaker 2: That's never You're never going to get me to say

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Speaker 2: anything really negative. I mean, I see him as a

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Speaker 2: real person, but you know, you're never gonna get me

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Speaker 2: to say anything negative about him. But I think one

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Speaker 2: of the things that I miss the most about my

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Speaker 2: dad is people ask me all the time is, as

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Speaker 2: you said, his humor. He maintained such levity in dark

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Speaker 2: situations even when he was you know, I remember when

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Speaker 2: he was running for present, it was clear he wasn't

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Speaker 2: gonna win, and some journalists they don't remember who like

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Speaker 2: got up in his face and was like, is this

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Speaker 2: going to be so hard for you? Or are you

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Speaker 2: in a dark place? And he was like, he was like,

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Speaker 2: excuse me, I've been through way worse than this. And

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Speaker 2: you know, obviously what the implication of that is. He

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Speaker 2: was tortured for five and a half years and he

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Speaker 2: just always maintained this humor, and humor is gone from

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Speaker 2: politics in general right now.

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Speaker 1: Or has been replaced with this kind of weird, sick,

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Speaker 1: hurtful humor. I think yes, yes.

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Speaker 3: The nagging, punting, you know, bullying humor.

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Speaker 1: If you want to get smarter every morning with a

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Speaker 1: breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on health and

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Speaker 1: wellness and pop culture, sign up for our daily newsletter,

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Speaker 1: wake Up Call by going to Katiecuric dot com. I

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Speaker 1: was talking to someone recently and I was curious about

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Speaker 1: your take on this about Lindsay Graham. I don't even remember,

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Speaker 1: you know, I talked to so many people and I

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Speaker 1: read it. I read so many things, but you know,

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Speaker 1: someone said Lindsey Graham always relied or depended on John

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Speaker 1: McCain to give him a spine, right, And wow, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and then after your dad died, he became spineless because

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Speaker 1: he didn't have someone to look up to like your father.

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Speaker 1: And of course I'm old enough to remember the three amigos,

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Speaker 1: you know, your dad and Joe Lieberman and Lindsey Graham.

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Speaker 1: And as you watch Lindsey Graham become sort of sycophant

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Speaker 1: in chief, I mean, what went through your mind.

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Speaker 2: I won't associated with him anymore. I don't want to

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Speaker 2: have anything to do with Lindsay Graham. And there's some

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Speaker 2: personal animists that he's very well aware of between us

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Speaker 2: and I just find him, you know, it's he's so

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Speaker 2: far removed from the person I used to know, and

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Speaker 2: I know from you know, mutual friends we have, and

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Speaker 2: I would like to say my mother still associates with

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Speaker 2: him and my brothers too. This is like my personal choice.

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Speaker 2: I'm just not comfortable around him because he loves talking

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Speaker 2: to press too. He like you know, there's very rarely

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Speaker 2: you can have a private conversation with him that doesn't

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Speaker 2: end up someplace. And I really, you know, better than

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Speaker 2: anyone else in your life, you really have to have

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Speaker 2: people around you that believe in the concept of off

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Speaker 2: the record, especially people in your personal life, but he

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Speaker 2: just he will go where power is in whatever form.

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Speaker 2: And you know, I think he'll get these like short

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Speaker 2: term dopamine rushes from being associated with Trump, and I

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Speaker 2: think he'll get this short term. But I always wonder

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Speaker 2: how he's going to feel at the end of his career,

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Speaker 2: if this is all worth it, if morphing this way

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Speaker 2: is all worth it. But maybe he looks at Liz

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Speaker 2: Cheney and is like, look at her career. You know,

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Speaker 2: she's out of power and she's demonized by so many people.

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Speaker 3: And I don't want to be that.

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Speaker 2: So I need to be like Trump and you know,

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Speaker 2: imitate him and be his best friend. And people all

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Speaker 2: have to live with their decisions in life and with

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Speaker 2: their conscience and with their creator. And he disappoints me

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Speaker 2: on many different levels, and I just I don't.

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Speaker 3: Want to be around him anymore.

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Speaker 1: You know, you talk about people having serious struggles, economic struggles,

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Speaker 1: and how that motivated a lot of people to vote

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Speaker 1: the way they did. And not to put too fine

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Speaker 1: a point on it, because we sort of talked about

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Speaker 1: this already, Megan, but it's fascinating to me and actually

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Speaker 1: I think disturbing to many that Donald Trump's behavior and actions.

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Speaker 1: He never did anything that was disqualifying, And I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you could shed some light on why you believe

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Speaker 1: things like January sixth, which Donald Trump called a day

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Speaker 1: of love, his conviction by a jury of his peers

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Speaker 1: of thirty four felony counts, his asking the Secretary of

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Speaker 1: State of Georgia to find him eleven seven hundred and

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Speaker 1: eighty votes. His insistence that the twenty twenty election was rigged,

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that over sixty court cases failed to

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Speaker 1: find evidence of that. Why do you think all those things?

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Speaker 1: This is what I'm still scratching my head about. Megan

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Speaker 1: didn't lead voters to think he was just simply unfit

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Speaker 1: for office. I mean, and that's just honestly, those are

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Speaker 1: just kind of the headlines. There are so many other

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Speaker 1: things underneath those actions that I could have also named.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think people were willing to turn a

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Speaker 1: blind eye to so many things that Donald Trump not

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Speaker 1: only did, but what he stands for.

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Speaker 2: I think there's a few different answers to this. The

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Speaker 2: first one is the same friend. She felt sort of like,

439
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, guilty, but definitely like a little sheepish

440
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 2: telling me she was voting for Trump, and I asked

441
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: the same question, and she said, I paid five hundred

442
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: dollars for groceries and one hundred dollars for gas this morning.

443
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 2: I like, something has got to change, and I don't

444
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 2: have the sort of I'm not in the same station

445
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 2: in life that you are, with the same kind of

446
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 2: guardrails to have that be my main priority, which I

447
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 2: thought was a very interesting and honest answer. So I

448
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 2: think for a lot of people, as James Carville says,

449
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: it's just the economy stupid and they just want change.

450
00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,440
Speaker 2: I also think people are like very scared about the border,

451
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: and very scared about a lot of these culture war issues,

452
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: and just seeing the world changing in a way that

453
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: they don't like, and they've sort of come to terms

454
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 2: with the fact that the person who's going to change

455
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 2: it comes in this like really morally corrupt and character

456
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 2: flawed package. I also think I had a conversation with

457
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,360
Speaker 2: Sean Spicer where he was bringing up the fact that

458
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,240
Speaker 2: Bill Clinton is still someone who was on the convention

459
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: stage for the Democrat Party, and he's someone who obviously

460
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,119
Speaker 2: has we don't need to go into it, but a

461
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:12,919
Speaker 2: lot of you know, sexual I.

462
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,439
Speaker 1: Thought, I've thought about that too, but I just feel

463
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 1: like they're not comfortable. I don't think it's the same either, right,

464
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,439
Speaker 1: But mister relaying, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but no, I

465
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: thought I've wondered about that as well. The way I

466
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 1: it mets out for me is that it just the

467
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: actions are are just you can't compare the two.

468
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 2: I think also in this election, there are two moments

469
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: that I thought really did it for Trump. One of

470
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 2: them was his assassination attempt and the image of him

471
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 2: screaming fight with blood down his face. And you know,

472
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: even for me, because I you know, I do not

473
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: like him, we are not. I'm not a supporter, I

474
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 2: wrote in not whatever of him, But even for me,

475
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,359
Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, this man is like

476
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 2: even when he's bleeding, he's like, I'm fighting for you.

477
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,439
Speaker 2: And I think there was just never a comparably iconic

478
00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: image for Biden or or Vice President Harris going into

479
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:10,400
Speaker 2: the election, and then I think President Biden calling Republicans garbage.

480
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,359
Speaker 2: I really don't think you can underestimate what to impact out.

481
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 2: How I knew a lot of people who dress like

482
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 2: in garbage trash bags at Halloween and put like garbage person,

483
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 2: trash person on their like social media and bios. And

484
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 2: I think if you already think the elites think you're garbage,

485
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 2: then you're not going to believe that they're going to

486
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 2: fight for you.

487
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:28,959
Speaker 3: If you're trash.

488
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,680
Speaker 2: That's thrown out in your your what you do and say,

489
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,159
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. It's horrible that President Biden did and

490
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,479
Speaker 2: Vice President Harris didn't do it. She never said anything

491
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 2: like that, but unfortunately, I think the mistakes of President

492
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,480
Speaker 2: Biden hurt her very deeply.

493
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 1: You wrote in a candidate, I won't ask you who

494
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 1: in my dad you wrote in I'm.

495
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: You know, I know it's so and people are mad.

496
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,439
Speaker 2: I mean, people are so mad at me, Katie. I

497
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 2: mean mad that I didn't vote either way. And I

498
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: was like, I'm I have such like Christian Gil at night,

499
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: and I don't want to I don't want anything, all

500
00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 2: my conscience with any of it.

501
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 3: And I can never vote for Trump. I can't do it.

502
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 3: I could never explain it to my.

503
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:09,520
Speaker 1: Children and tell me why you couldn't vote for Kamala Harris.

504
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 3: I just policy.

505
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 2: I really wanted her to give me a reason to

506
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 2: vote for her, and I just felt like it never happened,

507
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 2: and there were some questions that she just couldn't answer.

508
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 2: And look, I'm a pro life, pretty hardcore conservative woman,

509
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 2: and Governor Waltz was a big It was way too

510
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: extreme for me. He actually like scared me a lot

511
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 2: more than she did, and why he's very radical on

512
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 2: abortion and his record during twenty twenty George Floyd protests

513
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 2: in Minneapolis, and I felt like he was costplaying as

514
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,280
Speaker 2: a Republican to try and get my boot.

515
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 3: It all felt very phony.

516
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: Oh, although I have to point out that Donald Trump

517
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 1: called him and congratulated him for how he handled the

518
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 1: riots in Minnesota.

519
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: Right, that's ridiculous. Yes, it's a completely No one represents me.

520
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:57,720
Speaker 2: But I do think because people would keep asking me,

521
00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: you know, was she a good candidate? And I was like,

522
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,719
Speaker 2: she had one hundred days to do this, and I

523
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 2: think she should be spotted for doing For getting in

524
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 2: the cockpit of a crashing plane and leveling it out

525
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: the way she did, I don't know how many other

526
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: politicians could have done that. And I actually think that

527
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: there are a lot of genuine criticisms of her that

528
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 2: I can get, But I don't think she's this cataclysmic

529
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:24,919
Speaker 2: disaster that she's being portrayed as now.

530
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 3: I think it's actually pretty unfair.

531
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 1: I think she, I mean, this is me, and of

532
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: course I'm more liberal than Europe, but I thought she

533
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: carried herself with such dignity and intelligence. A lot of people,

534
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: I understand, have said they think your dad would have

535
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 1: voted for Vice President Harris, but you disagree with that assessment.

536
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was like me, you know, I don't think

537
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: he would have like, you know, trust her been uncivil,

538
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: But I don't think he would have voted for her.

539
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: I mean, he never voted for a Democrat that I'm

540
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: aware of his entire life, and I just can't really

541
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: see that changing. And I also think the Afghanistan JH

542
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,639
Speaker 2: withdrawal on the part of the Biden administration would have

543
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: killed him.

544
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,359
Speaker 3: Would have killed him.

545
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: The images of the people hanging onto the plane and

546
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: US leaving translators and allies in Afghanistan to basically fend

547
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 2: for themselves and be killed, it would have He would

548
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 2: have had a nervous breakdown over it, and I think

549
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: he couldn't have forgetten that.

550
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: You also feel that Israel would have been a big

551
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 1: factor in his vote.

552
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: He was a huge pro Israel person. That's where I

553
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: got a lot of my advocacy from. And also the

554
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: Democrats have shifted to They're much more progressive than the

555
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 2: era of the Joe Lieberman Democrat is long gone.

556
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: Let's talk about what you wrote after the election. In

557
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: addition to your early comments, you wrote, the big bright

558
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: side for me is that I agree with President Trump

559
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: on probably seventy five to eighty five percent of his

560
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: policy positions except the tariffs. Of course, I'm still an

561
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,159
Speaker 1: old school physical conservative. So what are some of the

562
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,880
Speaker 1: incoming president's policy positions that you feel comfortable with?

563
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 2: Israel in general, anything having to do with culture war issues,

564
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 2: which I'm sure you know. I don't know your audience,

565
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: but I assume they're probably more liberal than mine disagree with.

566
00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 2: I just think his emphasis on sort of like I too,

567
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 2: believe that everything in DC is broken and I'm for

568
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 2: radical change. One of the things I want to emphasize,

569
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: like my children are fully vaccinated. I'm grateful for vaccines

570
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,560
Speaker 2: and doctors, and I would never not vaccinate, Like it's

571
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,960
Speaker 2: very important to me. I think anyone who's had a

572
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,719
Speaker 2: parent that died of cancer understands how magical doctors are

573
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: and they're like, you know, magicians that do miracles every day.

574
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: But I too have questions about the food, like what's

575
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 2: happening with our food?

576
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: And the die is being put in our food?

577
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: And you know, why are some things legal in the

578
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: You know, why are skittles legal in the United States

579
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: and they're not in Europe? Like some of the questions

580
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 2: that the Make America Healthy Again movement has brought up,

581
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions about I think just overall,

582
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: I agree that I think DC needs radical change, and

583
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 2: I don't know if I would have brought it in

584
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: this chaotic package, because again, it's sort of like, be

585
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: careful what you wish for, but.

586
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: Right like and when you burned the house down, what

587
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: rises from the ashes? You know? I was just asking

588
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: you about sort of some of the policies, and you

589
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,120
Speaker 1: were saying you want radical change. One of my followers

590
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: asked Megan, how you felt about mass deportation, and I

591
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: want to just give this context. President elect Trump recently

592
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: announced he would declare a national emergency and will use

593
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: military assets to address illegal immigration through a mass deportation program.

594
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: His top immigration policy advisor, Stephen Miller, has also said

595
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: that military funds would be used to build vast holding

596
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: facilities that would function as staging centers for immigrants as

597
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: their cases progressed and they waited to be flown to

598
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: other countries. But one major impediment to the vast deportation

599
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: operation that the Trump team has promised in his second

600
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,440
Speaker 1: term is that Immigration and Customs Enforcement or ICE lacks

601
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 1: this space to hold a significantly larger number of detainees

602
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: than it currently does. Anyway, I just give that for

603
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 1: the way of background for our listeners. And gosh, I

604
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 1: don't know, you know obviously, and I think your dad

605
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: was very involved in trying to address comprehensive immigration reform.

606
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 1: I'm just remembering with Senator Ted Kennedy, who was Yeah,

607
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: and that's something that obviously has been sorely needed Megan,

608
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: as we know for decades and decades. But I don't know.

609
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 1: When I hear about this and the images it conjures

610
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: for me, it seems so inhumane and so cruel. And

611
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: I know, you know, I don't know how you felt

612
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: about the child separation policy, but honestly, this I am

613
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 1: not an immigrant, and on their behalf, this strikes such

614
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: fear in my heart, but knowing again full well that

615
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 1: our immigration system is broken. So I don't know what

616
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: are your thoughts.

617
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 2: Well, first, I'm more dubvish than probably the average or

618
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 2: publican on this. I think anyone that's lived on the

619
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 2: border state and you know that people are coming here

620
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: because a lot of times they're escaping gang violence, and

621
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 2: you know, just wanting the same opportunities.

622
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: Civil war, rights, civil war, you know, all kinds of

623
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: abuse like that. I mean, anyway, not to get.

624
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,160
Speaker 2: Too dark, but all the things that are ugly and

625
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 2: horrific in the world. I think the second, there are

626
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: images of children being ripped from their parents or families

627
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: literally being separated. It's one thing to talk about this

628
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 2: in the ether and to talk about on the campaign trail.

629
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: I think it's another thing for it to actually happen.

630
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 2: And I am actually curious when they say they're going

631
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 2: to get the military involved. Does that literally mean like

632
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 2: taking our I don't know, army, National Guard and going

633
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 2: in and rounding up people. It sounds obviously very extreme.

634
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: I always wish for prudence and calm and to understand

635
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: that if legal immigrants in this country are God's children

636
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 2: looking for a better way of life the way so

637
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: many of us did. That way of thinking is very

638
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: passe when it comes to Republican circles. It's how I feel,

639
00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 2: It's how I'm always going to feel. And I have

640
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:06,760
Speaker 2: great trepidation and I wouldn't go so far as to

641
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: say fear, but I feel the way you do that.

642
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: How does this work? And what are the images going

643
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 3: to look like?

644
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 2: Because you know, any mother, it's a dystopian idea to have,

645
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: you know, families being torn apart or somehow moved. And

646
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: I think that it's going to be a really rough

647
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,239
Speaker 2: wake up call for a lot of Republicans that they

648
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 2: actually end up doing this and the reaction of a

649
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: lot of Americans. I also have questions about the Hispanic

650
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: vote and the historic numbers of Hispanic people they voted

651
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: for President Trump that weren't put off by this kind

652
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: of rhetoric or this kind of policy. If they will

653
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 2: feel any different if it actually goes into action.

654
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:47,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. It's just so scary to me,

655
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: but we'll see what happens there. I wanted to move

656
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: on to the media writ large, which you know, what

657
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: is the media anyway these days?

658
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: Right?

659
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: I mean, but you wrote in your sub stack. Corporate

660
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: news media is a disaster. Here's how I'd fix it.

661
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: I agree wholeheartedly. The media is a mess. I think

662
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: in some ways it's because of the fragmentation that's occurred

663
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: with digital sources. And the good news everybody has a platform.

664
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 1: The bad news is everybody has a platform. That's sort

665
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: of how I feel. But you outline some of the

666
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: problems in your solutions. I'd love to get your hot takes.

667
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: I hope that's not triggering from the view, but on

668
00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: what you think needs to happen. Because as somebody who's

669
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: been in traditional media now is doing my own thing,

670
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, I've given this a lot of thought, read

671
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: a lot about it. I'm on the board of the

672
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: Shorenstein Institute at Harvard, where I just went to my

673
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: first board meeting. Obviously this was topic number one, So.

674
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry to be a philistine. What is the

675
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 3: Schorenstein to do?

676
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: So it's named after Jones Schorenstein, who was a journalist.

677
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 1: I think her parents named it. She died of cancer.

678
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: And Nancy Gibbs, who I love, used to be editor

679
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: of Time magazine, who's a beautiful writer. She is the

680
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: head of the Institute now, and she asked me if

681
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 1: I would come and be on the board. So basically,

682
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: really it's about media and public policy and how we

683
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: fix media. So this has really been top of mine

684
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,360
Speaker 1: for me. And I just interviewed Michael Tomaski, who's the

685
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,800
Speaker 1: editor of the New Republic. He wrote a big article

686
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: about sort of the power and the reach and the

687
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 1: influence of sort of the right wing media industrial complex.

688
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: So I've heard sort of his point of view as well.

689
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 1: So I would love to hear sort of what you

690
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: think what's gone wrong and how to fix it. And

691
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,760
Speaker 1: you have thirty seconds. I'm kidding, my god, You're totally kidding.

692
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 3: You're Katie Kurk.

693
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 2: So I feel like you're, you know, your perspective, it's

694
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: probably more interesting than mine.

695
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 3: You're, you know, iconic journalist. You know, I'll give my

696
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 3: hot tape, but would you mind giving me your hot take?

697
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: Sure?

698
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:53,240
Speaker 1: Sure?

699
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:54,719
Speaker 3: I think that for me.

700
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: One of the things to outline was I really am

701
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: sick of the token Republican on panels on like like

702
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 2: seeing an MSNBC. I also don't like the token Democrat

703
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:06,919
Speaker 2: on places like The Five. I you know, have friends

704
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: that work on that show and it's a great job.

705
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,920
Speaker 2: It's just not my style because I think that the

706
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: politics of America is a kaleidoscope, especially like in my

707
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: home state of Arizona, they're more independence and libertarians registered

708
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 2: to vote than any other state in the country. And

709
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: I think you're talking about the Democratic Party. You're talking

710
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 2: about progressives, more traditional Clinton Democrats, McCain, Republicans, MAGA Republicans,

711
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 2: independence libertarians, Like, that's what America is. And I think

712
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 2: the old trope of just like one person and we

713
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,399
Speaker 2: pile on them is very dated. I just know from

714
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 2: my experience. And I talked about this in my sub

715
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 2: stack that and please subscribe to myself stack mcainae that gone,

716
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: thank you.

717
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 3: I just launched it a few weeks ago for substack.

718
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 3: So fun. By the way, speaking of new media, Yeah,

719
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 3: and you.

720
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: Know a lot of people are making really nice livings

721
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: writing for substack. I think it's an awesome platform for

722
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: a lot of people.

723
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. I've been really happy there anyway.

724
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, I think for me just having a

725
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: different variety of journalists. I don't think it's good to

726
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: only come from Ivy League schools and only have progressives

727
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 2: and liberals working.

728
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:10,959
Speaker 3: I talk about my sub stack.

729
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: How two years into the view, I actually had to

730
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 2: hire someone from outside to be my producer because it

731
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 2: was just too hard to have people who didn't even

732
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 2: you know, sort.

733
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: Of like tall secure language. Really.

734
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I would just make it much more diverse

735
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: in always, and I mean not racially.

736
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,879
Speaker 1: Politically, socioeconomically, you know, in terms of geographically. That's one

737
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: of the things we talked about at this board meeting,

738
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 1: that diversity needs to include geographic diversity, life experience diversity,

739
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: you know, small towns and people who went to community

740
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: colleges and just represent, as you said, the diversity of

741
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 1: our country.

742
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 3: Yeah.

743
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 2: I also think respectfully because there's a lot of people

744
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 2: who are you know, have a lot of experience in

745
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: media that I really trust and like a lot. Again,

746
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,399
Speaker 2: I it's not this not a whole swath, but there's

747
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: some people that don't think do a good job, that

748
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,839
Speaker 2: I think are just making things worse, that I don't

749
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 2: think deserve the platforms they have. And I would love

750
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,880
Speaker 2: to see some new blood hosting some places. And I

751
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 2: just would also love to see there are journalists out there,

752
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,759
Speaker 2: there are still true journalists. I mean, this is a

753
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,759
Speaker 2: very respectful conversation, Katie. You know, I won't always get

754
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 2: that in different places I go to. And I think

755
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 2: that just having people who are interested in the story

756
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 2: and interested in what's happening in America versus projecting emotion

757
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 2: in the way that is displayed right now is really counterproductive.

758
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: I also have been just fascinated by this recent news story,

759
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,279
Speaker 2: not to date this podcast, but you know, seeing Joe

760
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: and Mika Prasinski talk about how they went to mar

761
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 2: A Lago to meet with Trump. I never thought I

762
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: would see that happen. I was fascinated they decided to

763
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 2: do that. Whether it ends up being good or bad

764
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 2: for their career, I don't know, but I thought it

765
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:57,320
Speaker 2: was certainly an interesting signal and symbol that they realized

766
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: maybe they've gone too far. And I like them, and

767
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 2: we have a very good mutual friend and they've been

768
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,320
Speaker 2: very kind to me. I don't have a problem with Joemika.

769
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 2: I'm just saying I was interested in it.

770
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean my quick take. I mean,

771
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: we could talk about this for hours, Megan, but I

772
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: wish there would be less fight and more fixing. I

773
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: think that journalism has gotten away from really talking about solutions,

774
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: and there is so much name calling. But I also

775
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: feel that, you know, as the pie became the slices

776
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 1: became smaller and smaller. Right, the model to have ratings

777
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: and to get people to watch people had to appeal

778
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: to a certain segment of the population. That means that

779
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: oftentimes people were getting affirmation instead of information right, and

780
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 1: Kara Swisher calls it engagement through enragement. I blame Fox

781
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: News a lot for this because I don't hear a

782
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 1: lot of legitimate criticisms of Donald Trump on Fox News,

783
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: and it does feel like a propaganda arm to me

784
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump. I think that MSNBC obviously is talking

785
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: to a certain segment of the population, and probably mainstream

786
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: media in general is more liberal than conservative. I think

787
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: journalists tend to be more liberal thinkers. And I think

788
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,439
Speaker 1: it's hard because opinion journalism has kind of taken over

789
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: the space right, you don't necessarily have people kind of talking.

790
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 1: But I've also struggled with this megant is that how

791
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: do you cover Donald Trump accurately? You know, how do

792
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 1: you search for truth and how do you do fact

793
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: based journalism when he traffics in so much misinformation and

794
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: therein lies the rub for me, if you point out

795
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: the things he says that are just patently false, then

796
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 1: you're automatically labeled as biased. And that is to me

797
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: the conundrum a lot of journalists are finding themselves in.

798
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,280
Speaker 2: Well, like I felt like a not a crazy person,

799
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 2: but I definitely have this moment of one of the

800
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 2: things I have to do. And I'm a conservative opinion commentator,

801
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 2: so people know what they're going to get from me.

802
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 2: But I'm not someone who drank kool aid and can't

803
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 2: see the forest for the trees in life. And I

804
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 2: had a conversation yesterday about why is it that Matt

805
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 2: gates ethics report isn't something I'm allowed to see when

806
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,080
Speaker 2: he wants to hold one of the most powerful positions

807
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: in US government. I don't understand why is Speaker Mike

808
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 2: Johnson saying it's irrelevant. Clearly something's in it, it's relevant.

809
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 2: And the amount of people who are saying you're anti Magat,

810
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: you're trying to hurt Trump, you're trying you know, you're bad, whatever,

811
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,040
Speaker 2: just because I want to know what's in the ethics

812
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: report of the very serious allegations against Matt Gates. That's

813
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: the part that's when you're talking about On my side,

814
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 2: that's the part that really scares me is getting in

815
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 2: such an echo chamber and such a point that you

816
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 2: feel like there will be social and career retribution if

817
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 2: you say something like that out loud. And I just

818
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 2: feel like, sometimes I feel like I'm in the twilight zone,

819
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: like the fact that I can't have a conversation about

820
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 2: why I think I wouldn't trust Matt Gates to babysit

821
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 2: my kids.

822
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 3: Let alone be attorney general.

823
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 2: You know, to a lot of people, that's I'm saying

824
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:21,959
Speaker 2: something very untorn.

825
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: Because you're not pledging blind loyalty and fealty to Donald Trump,

826
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: which is honestly kind of frightening because that is sort

827
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: of the sign of an authoritarian regime taking hold, isn't it.

828
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: I mean, my first reaction, and I tweeted this when

829
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 2: Matt Gates was chosen, as I was like, am I

830
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: going to jail?

831
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: Because I'm not.

832
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm joking obviously, because I'm not a maga person,

833
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 2: but yeah, it's really scary, and he's clearly the choice

834
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: is clearly made because Matt Gates is a sick of

835
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: fant who will do anything in everything that Trump wants,

836
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: and to me, it's dangerous not to have checks and

837
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 2: balances in positions of power. And I've just been surprised

838
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: at people like Mike Johnson, who are supposed to be,

839
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 2: you know, by all accounts, a deeply religious man, and

840
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: I was told a more normal person in power. And

841
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 2: you know, he's taken the selfie's on the plane, eaton

842
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: McDonald's too. And I don't know, I have as much

843
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: criticism for my party as I do the left. I

844
00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:15,720
Speaker 2: just I you know, people have just been more interested

845
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:19,320
Speaker 2: in my criticism of Democrats recently because of the historic

846
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 2: election loss. But I I really fear the cult of

847
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 2: personality and the amount of power everyone has going forward.

848
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: I really do.

849
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: I really like it's a really anxiety inducing.

850
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: I wanted to read something by New York Times White

851
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: House correspondent Peter Baker about what Donald Trump has been

852
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: doing since he won the election. Somehow, disruption doesn't begin

853
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 1: to cover it upheaval might be closer revolution. Maybe. In

854
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 1: less than two weeks since being elected again, Donald J.

855
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 1: Trumps embarked on a new campaign to shatter the institutions

856
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 1: of Washington, as no incoming president has in his lifetime,

857
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 1: he's rolled a giant grenade into the middle of the

858
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 1: nation's capital and watched with mischievous glee to see who

859
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: runs away and who throws themselves on it. Suffice it

860
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: to say, so far, there have been more of the

861
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,479
Speaker 1: former than the latter. Mister Trump has said that real

862
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: powers the ability to engender fear, and he seems to

863
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 1: have achieved that. Mister Trump's early transition moves amount to

864
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: a generational stress test for the system. If Republicans bow

865
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: to his demand to recess the Senate so that he

866
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: can install appointees without confirmation, it would rewrite the balance

867
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 1: of power established by the Founders more than two centuries ago.

868
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: And if he gets his way on selections for some

869
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: of the most important posts in government, he would put

870
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: in place loyalists intent on blowing up the very departments

871
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,239
Speaker 1: they would lead. He's such a good writer, isn't he.

872
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: I'm like, it's very yes, like the movie's grug.

873
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: I mean, do you think that this is what Republicans

874
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,479
Speaker 1: want and the people who voted for Donald Trump really want?

875
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 1: I mean, he is going in there with guns flazing, Megan,

876
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 1: like he wants to blow the place up.

877
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 2: Clearly so anyone that's ever made an impulsive decision in

878
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 2: their life, and I certainly have. I have a foot

879
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: tattoo to prove it at that moment where you wake

880
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 2: up the next day and you're like, I have the

881
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 2: most hideous foot tattoo. I thought it was cool in

882
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: the morning, and I still it's embarrassing. It looks like

883
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 2: a blob. It's terrible, And I feel like, be careful.

884
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 2: What you wish for is very important in this moment,

885
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 2: because I too want I want radical change within the

886
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 2: norm of understanding what radical change can look like. I

887
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 2: do not want the foundations of the country imploded, and

888
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 2: I do not want people to feel unsafe or unheard.

889
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 2: And I think the idea of taking a recess and

890
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 2: not having normal hearings for these people is bat blank insane.

891
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: I know it's a family show. I don't want to share.

892
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 1: No, this is actually not a family show.

893
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,239
Speaker 2: You guys say bad shit insane. I think it's I

894
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: think it's lunacy. I think it is lunacy, and I

895
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: think we have a right to know who we are

896
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 2: putting in these places. And again, if the question I

897
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: have for people who want to do this in the recess.

898
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: What are you trying to hide? What can I not know?

899
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: So I'm very fearful of that. I don't think all

900
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: the people are going to be destroying things from the

901
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 2: inside out. I certainly don't think Senator Marco Rubio's intentions

902
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: or that. I don't think the new head of Transportation,

903
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:45,319
Speaker 2: Sean Duffy, who I know him and his wife very well,

904
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 2: I don't think he's that kind of person at all.

905
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,240
Speaker 2: So I do think there's some choices, like Doug Bergham

906
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: is a very lovely man from North Dakota.

907
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: Those are kind of in the minority, aren't they. Megan,

908
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: I mean you look at Pete Hegseth, the Secretary Defense pick.

909
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: You've meant Matt Gates where I think people many people

910
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: are appalled by that. I think there are significant concerns

911
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: about RFK Junior. I know that you said your kids

912
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 1: are vaccinated. I'm curious. I know you had him on

913
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 1: your podcast if you're concerned about some of I haven't.

914
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:25,320
Speaker 3: I haven't ever before who he was now, or.

915
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: I've never interviewed him. I think I met him once,

916
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 1: you know, when he was primarily an environmentalist with river

917
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,040
Speaker 1: keepers and cared deeply about the environment. But no, I

918
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: don't run in those circles, Megan, I don't know. I

919
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 1: don't hang out with the Kennedy's, even though I admire

920
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: many of them. But but I mean a lot of

921
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 1: people I think the fact that he'll be in charge

922
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: of the CDC, the nih FDA, the Centers for Medicare

923
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: and Medicaid Service, the Office of the Surgeon General are

924
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: very nervous, not only because of his claims that vaccines

925
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: are connected to autism, which I mean the MMR vaccine,

926
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: which has been disproven, as you know, and the guy

927
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 1: who made those claims lost his medical license as a

928
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 1: result of professional misconduct, you know. I mean, people talk

929
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 1: about the COVID vaccine and there's a lot of I think,

930
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: retrospective thinking about what moves were made during COVID. But

931
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, whenever people criticize that, for me, Megan, I think, well,

932
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: what if all these kids had died, you know, what

933
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: if there had been a very different outcome. And I

934
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: think it's easy to say you shouldn't have done this,

935
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:41,520
Speaker 1: you shouldn't have done that. You know, science is not

936
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: It's an art in many ways, you know, you learn

937
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: as you go this was a brand new virus, and

938
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: I think that the medical professionals in charge did the

939
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 1: best they could with the information they had. And I

940
00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 1: don't know this whole like could have would have show

941
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: of stuff I think always gives me pause, And I,

942
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,479
Speaker 1: like you, you know, I'm very touched by cancer lost

943
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: my husband and my sister, and I have such great

944
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: reverence for science and for scientists that it's such an

945
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 1: uffront to me when people trash people like Anthony Fauci

946
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 1: and experts and everyone makes mistakes. I mean, it's just

947
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: an imperfect exercise to kind of deal with something like this.

948
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: But I don't know. I worry about Rfka Junior, I guess,

949
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to say.

950
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 2: I understand how he became as popular as he is

951
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 2: because I think, again, like in hindsight, there's a lot

952
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,799
Speaker 2: of things that happened during COVID which I would really

953
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 2: blame much more on, like teachers' unions than doctors necessarily,

954
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 2: that really radicalize a lot of women in my life,

955
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 2: a lot, especially moms and young children. And again, like

956
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: you said, hindsight's twenty twenty, you know, go back in

957
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 2: our time machine whatever. But I do think what the

958
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: things that's really hard for me is the criticism of NIH.

959
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 2: And again I'm not like a bureaucrat. I don't know

960
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 2: the internal workings of NAHE. But what I do know

961
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,840
Speaker 2: is that when my dad had brain cancer, there's only

962
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 2: a proton beam, which is this like tiny little microscopic

963
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 2: beam that eliminates cancer like they do the laser outside

964
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 2: of cancer that makes it the tumors like collapse on themselves.

965
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: And I remember that's where.

966
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:24,880
Speaker 2: We took my dad to get his treatment there in

967
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,080
Speaker 2: Mayo Clinic, and I remember at the time being like,

968
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,479
Speaker 2: this is like alchemy. This is the craziest The fact

969
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: that this exists and this was invented and these nurses

970
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: and these doctors can make tumors disappear with this laser

971
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:41,280
Speaker 2: is just the most miraculous thing. And at the time,

972
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: I remember talking to so many doctors about the future

973
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 2: of cancer treatment, as I'm sure you have to, and

974
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 2: there's so much when it comes to immune therapy and

975
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 2: stem cells therapy and things that I'm so excited about

976
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: and hopeful for.

977
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: And of course AI is going to change the field dramatically.

978
00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 2: Yes, And I think again the misunderstanding if you've ever

979
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: been in a state of sheer desperation which you and

980
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 2: I have been in, just wanting people to fix this

981
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 2: for you and to give you hope. The thankless things

982
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 2: doctors and nurses have to go through every day and caregivers.

983
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: I just that's what the problem, the biggest problem I

984
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,439
Speaker 2: have with all of this is that science, like you said,

985
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 2: is a practice of medicine. And I mean not to

986
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: give you like TMI, but I had to have a

987
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 2: hysteroctopy like two weeks ago, and when it was happening

988
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 2: for people don't know what that is, like the doctor

989
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 2: puts a camera inside your uterist to make sure you

990
00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 2: don't have like polyps or anything, and I was like,

991
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:39,719
Speaker 2: this is crazy, and like fifteen minutes I can mind

992
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 2: out if there's anything wrong with my guts, Like what

993
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: a what of we're in? And I just feel like

994
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 2: the disrespect towards scientists and doctors and things like that

995
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 2: is very alarming to me. And I'm I continue to

996
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:52,839
Speaker 2: be so grateful for vaccines and.

997
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: Well, you know, you know they have saved I look

998
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 1: this up. They have saved and estimated one hundred and

999
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: fifty four million lives since night teen seventy four when

1000
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: the World Health Organization launched its Global Immunization Program. This

1001
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: equivalent of saving six lives every single minute.

1002
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:11,560
Speaker 3: It's amazing.

1003
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 2: And as everyone or anyone who you know has my

1004
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,720
Speaker 2: mother talked about this that you know there are African

1005
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: nations and places that don't have vaccines.

1006
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 3: Other than food and water, it's the main thing that they.

1007
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 2: Want from NGOs and places to go in and help

1008
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 2: their communities. And I just think it's a really excessive,

1009
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 2: decadent culture that doesn't appreciate what we're given. And when

1010
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: you hear about like outbreaks of measles and things like that,

1011
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: it scares the living hell out of me.

1012
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: People are worried about polio returning as well. I mean,

1013
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: given all that we've discussed, so do you feel confident

1014
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: that RFK is the right person? And by the way,

1015
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: I agree like chronic health problems are killing Americans, all

1016
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:58,400
Speaker 1: these things obesity. I agree what you said about die

1017
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,760
Speaker 1: but you know there are ways to address these issues

1018
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: without blowing up the entire place.

1019
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: It's not my choice. He would not be my choice.

1020
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: After I interviewed him. He's a very pleasant and charming man,

1021
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 2: but I just it's a lot.

1022
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 3: Of it is just too woo woo for me.

1023
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 2: It's too like, you know, I just really rely on

1024
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: doctors and scientists who have a lot of record and

1025
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 2: has spent their life dedicated to examining and studying health

1026
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,839
Speaker 2: and medicine. And yeah, I look. I texted my pediatrician

1027
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 2: and was like, uh, our vaccine? Am I still going

1028
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 2: to to vaccine my kids? Like if he becomes you know,

1029
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: the head of this, so it's not my choice.

1030
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 1: What did your pediatricians say? Yes?

1031
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 3: He said yes, but it is scary.

1032
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: I mean, we could get and I asked somebody to

1033
00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 1: write a piece for us. Jeremy Foulest, who's an emergency

1034
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:52,320
Speaker 1: room doctor in Boston who I talked a lot to

1035
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:57,040
Speaker 1: during COVID. You know, it is like to leave getting vaccinated,

1036
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:00,880
Speaker 1: to make it a choice rather than a mandate, I

1037
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,240
Speaker 1: think has some serious public health consequences. I was reading

1038
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: a lot about this, you know, like strong encouragement versus

1039
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: a mandate and kind of what works better. But if

1040
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: you don't have heard immunity, it can put a lot

1041
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 1: of people in the community at risk. I mean, I'm

1042
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: not a doctor or scientist, but I worry. I worry

1043
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: about RFK Junior. But that's me.

1044
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 3: No, I did.

1045
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,840
Speaker 2: And I also think just character wise, you know, again

1046
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,239
Speaker 2: it's not a family show, but you know, he had

1047
00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:33,680
Speaker 2: some kind of affair recently with a journalist, and you know,

1048
00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 2: if that's how you're spending your time. I do wonder

1049
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 2: about like the focus on the issues of the nation,

1050
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 2: and I think, again.

1051
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm old fashioned that way too, Like I like my

1052
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:46,160
Speaker 1: public officials to keep it in their pants. Call me crazy.

1053
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,839
Speaker 2: I did too, and I'm but that's but you and

1054
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: I are in the minority, I guess. But I just thought,

1055
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 2: like it's so recent and it was with a journalist,

1056
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: and you know, I don't want people with high levels

1057
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 2: of intelligence and access to you know.

1058
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: But there's also of other weird stuff like the bear

1059
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: cub in Central Park and all sorts of crazy shit.

1060
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 3: I don't want to end this on like a dystope

1061
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:07,399
Speaker 3: a note.

1062
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 2: But I got to screen that movie Civil War that

1063
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,240
Speaker 2: came out last year with Kirsten Dunston.

1064
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 3: It's about a modern American Civil war.

1065
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: I saw it.

1066
00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a very when I watched it.

1067
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: I was like sweating, I broke out in hives, and

1068
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 2: I was like, this is very realistic, and they filmed

1069
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: it in the area where I live in, or it's

1070
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 2: supposed to be the area I live in, like right

1071
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 2: outside DC. And it's not that I think we're going

1072
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:30,799
Speaker 2: to go into a civil war, because I don't actually

1073
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: think it's going to happen, but I worry about the

1074
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 2: complete dismantling of everything and what happens next. And I just,

1075
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 2: you know, when I get into my very dark place,

1076
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: I think of Kirsten Dunst in that movie. And again

1077
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to be hyperbolic and tell

1078
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:46,880
Speaker 2: you I think we're going into civil war, but I

1079
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 2: do worry about you know, there's a lot of good

1080
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 2: in our country too, and the foundations of the country,

1081
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 2: I think are the greatest foundations of any country in

1082
00:54:55,000 --> 00:55:00,240
Speaker 2: world history. And to just completely eliminate it, it's crazy.

1083
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,680
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you about another Donald Trump's picks

1084
00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: because she's a good friend of yours, and that's Tulsey

1085
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: Gabbard for Director of National Intelligence.

1086
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 3: Everybody's asking me about her, everybody's out giving me about her.

1087
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: Really well, yeah, I'm sorry to add to the chorus,

1088
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: but I know she's your eldest daughter's godmother. But there. Honestly,

1089
00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 1: I've read a lot of stuff that gives me pause,

1090
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: and I wonder if you could talk about it. And

1091
00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: those things specifically are that she traveled to Syria and

1092
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: met with President Asad, the authoritarian president of Syria, whom

1093
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,479
Speaker 1: I actually have interviewed. The day after Vladimir Putin began

1094
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: a full scale invasion of Ukraine, she blamed the United

1095
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 1: States and NATO for provoking the war by ignoring Russia's

1096
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:49,879
Speaker 1: security concerns, and after she was named for her role,

1097
00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:52,880
Speaker 1: a Russian paper wrote a glowing review saying the CIA

1098
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: and the FBI are trembling and that Ukrainians consider her

1099
00:55:56,920 --> 00:56:02,120
Speaker 1: an agent other Russian state. So tell us.

1100
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the reasons.

1101
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: So Tolcy and I met about eight years ago, and

1102
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 2: we actually met through Van Jones Sann's Van Jones and

1103
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: I had been very critical of her meeting with Bishar

1104
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 2: al Assad and he texted me and was like, you

1105
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 2: don't know her, And he texted her saying because she

1106
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 2: her campaign had answered in a very intense way and

1107
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: said you don't know Megan, and he basically like set

1108
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,879
Speaker 2: us up on a friend date and that lunch our first.

1109
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 3: Meeting, I felt so seen by another woman.

1110
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 2: I felt like we were both bonded over what it's

1111
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 2: like to be demonized in the media. We both had

1112
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,919
Speaker 2: at the point gone through fertility issues, and we're bonding

1113
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,800
Speaker 2: over that. We both felt very alone in so many

1114
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 2: media spaces. And I think the main thing that I

1115
00:56:45,840 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 2: know about her, and I know her character, we're very

1116
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:50,319
Speaker 2: very good friends. They talked to her almost every day.

1117
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 2: The main thing about her is that she wants peace

1118
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 2: in all forms, and she will meet with Satan himself

1119
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 2: to get it. And I believe that every way she

1120
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,560
Speaker 2: makes in her life in general is all about trying

1121
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 2: to find peace and prevent war. She is a soldier

1122
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 2: in the army. I think he's a lieutenant colonel. And

1123
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 2: I always thought, if people like Debbie Westerermn Schultz really

1124
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 2: think she's a Russian agent, why hasn't the military done

1125
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: an investigation. I also want to know why Bernie Sanders

1126
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,200
Speaker 2: has put out tweets saying this is disgusting slur and

1127
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,280
Speaker 2: defended her against, you know, the accusations that she's somehow

1128
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 2: for Russia. One of my dear friends of Vladimir Kara

1129
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,680
Speaker 2: Murza was actually imprisoned in a Russian gulag for years.

1130
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 2: He was, by a miracle helped to be released by

1131
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 2: prison exchange with President Biden. And I think the idea

1132
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 2: that I would associate with someone who was compromised by

1133
00:57:39,640 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 2: Russia is insulting to me.

1134
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 3: And I also think that I wish everyone.

1135
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 2: Would sort of get out of the habit of saying

1136
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 2: Russia is involved for everything like Russia Gate, which ended

1137
00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: up being nothing. With President Trump, that doesn't mean we shouldn't,

1138
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 2: you know, be very wary of Putin and Russia in general, especially.

1139
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 1: There for some shenan against I think in Georgia with

1140
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: Russian intelligence during this selection right, there were thirty bomb

1141
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 1: threats targeting black voters at a number of Georgia voting

1142
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: centers that were orchestrated by the Russians. God. So, I mean,

1143
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: you're right, we can't blame them for everything, but maybe

1144
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: we can blame them for a lot of things. I

1145
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 1: don't know.

1146
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: I mean, it's very serious. I would never negate that. Look,

1147
00:58:24,760 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 2: she is someone who evokes very intense reactions on both sides.

1148
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: I love her very much. I know the person I

1149
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 2: trust her implicitly. I was very happy when she was

1150
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 2: chosen because I don't. I neither believe those things, and

1151
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:40,400
Speaker 2: I think they're pretty absurd. And I also think she's

1152
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 2: getting a lot of heat because she's a former Democrat.

1153
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 2: But I believe she's going to be easily confirmed, and

1154
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 2: I think that people are going to have to come

1155
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 2: to terms with the fact that there are a lot

1156
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: of soldiers like Tulci who have been and including by

1157
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: the way, both my brothers who have been through generations

1158
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,720
Speaker 2: of war, who are very war weary and have become

1159
00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 2: much more isolation in their view of America's role globally.

1160
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: Tolty and I don't agree on a lot of things.

1161
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: We're actually very opposite in many ways. You know, she's

1162
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 2: like hyper healthy, works out all the time and like

1163
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: I eat McDonald's. Like we're very opposite in a lot

1164
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 2: of ways, but the core values of who we are

1165
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,960
Speaker 2: are very similar. And I wish people would see this

1166
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 2: side to her that I know so well, and I

1167
00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 2: feel like she never really gets the opportunity to be

1168
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,320
Speaker 2: seen as anything in this like dimensional way that a

1169
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,040
Speaker 2: lot of women in politics, particularly on the left, get to.

1170
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,240
Speaker 2: And they love her very much, and I'm very proud

1171
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 2: of her, and I understand that a lot of people

1172
00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 2: have questions, and I'm not her mouth piece, obviously, but

1173
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 2: I just I'm good friends with her, and she's a

1174
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 2: really good person and has helped me through a lot

1175
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 2: of dark times.

1176
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: In my life. So you think she's misunderstood, but you

1177
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: don't really agree with some of her policies. Is that

1178
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: a fair assessment?

1179
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 3: Sure, but I agree with more than probably people think.

1180
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 2: But she doesn't agree with mine either, Like we have

1181
00:59:59,800 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 2: health healthy, you know, I wouldn't say arguments, but you know,

1182
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 2: we've certainly had many conversations about politics in the past.

1183
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 2: But I don't know if you have anyone like this

1184
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 2: in your life. I just don't know anyone else who

1185
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:15,120
Speaker 2: has been turned into a caricature in the media the

1186
01:00:15,160 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 2: way we both have by a lot of people.

1187
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 3: And you know, at the.

1188
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 2: Time, I was working on the view when we first met,

1189
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 2: and I just felt really and she would say the

1190
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 2: same thing. We just I just felt really connected to her,

1191
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 2: and I just feel like I really, really really know her,

1192
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 2: I really really know her family, and she's a really

1193
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 2: good person.

1194
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: Well, you bring me to my final question, which is,

1195
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:39,439
Speaker 1: how can we have more conversations like this? How can

1196
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:43,480
Speaker 1: we have two people who disagree on a lot of issues,

1197
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: and how we approach and tackle some of the thorniest

1198
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 1: problems in our country and have civil, respectful conversations. How

1199
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: can we encourage other people to do this?

1200
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 2: Megan, I mean, I always lead with love in every

1201
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:04,480
Speaker 2: part of my life that I'm capable of. I'm not perfect,

1202
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:06,560
Speaker 2: and I certainly have still have a temper and I

1203
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:07,960
Speaker 2: can still be like whatever.

1204
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 3: But I think age and having kids is true.

1205
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 2: I just want to have be in a world that

1206
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: I want my kids to be in, and this level

1207
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 2: of division is not is not I think tolerable or sustainable.

1208
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 2: And I think I'm open to I will talk to

1209
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 2: anyone as long as it's respectful. I will talk to

1210
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 2: anyone on any side, as long as I know that

1211
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 2: there's not going to be screaming and name calling or

1212
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,000
Speaker 2: anything like that. And I just think you can only

1213
01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: lead by example and control how you behave and speak.

1214
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:38,000
Speaker 2: And I also think we should reward platforms that have

1215
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 2: bipartisan conversations right in this moment, it's actually what I'm

1216
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,200
Speaker 2: the most interested in listening to across the board. I'm

1217
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: interested in both sides coming together and discussing where we're at,

1218
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:49,640
Speaker 2: and I think the reflection of how bad the ratings

1219
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 2: are on MSNBC and CNN right now show that maybe

1220
01:01:52,560 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 2: there's an appetite for more, you know, interesting converse, nuanced conversations.

1221
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: If people aren't turning news off fall together, right, Some

1222
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:06,560
Speaker 1: people just are so burned out on politics and feel

1223
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,240
Speaker 1: such a sense of despair. I don't know if they'd

1224
01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 1: even want to listen to our conversation I.

1225
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:13,919
Speaker 2: And I have friends like that who just can't even

1226
01:02:14,120 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 2: listen to it anymore. But I'm an eternal optimist. I

1227
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 2: really am, and I really hope for the better and

1228
01:02:20,880 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 2: for me the issues I have with President Trump and

1229
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:26,120
Speaker 2: the division, I think that you know, and I blame

1230
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 2: both sides for the division we're in, But for me,

1231
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 2: it's like there.

1232
01:02:29,840 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 3: Will only be four years of this, at least for me.

1233
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 2: One of the things that has given me solace with

1234
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 2: the anxiety I have about the Trump era is that

1235
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,760
Speaker 2: there is an end point to this. After four years,

1236
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 2: he cannot be president again, and at least.

1237
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,160
Speaker 1: At least not that we know of, right unless he

1238
01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:49,520
Speaker 1: tries to change the law, which he kind of suggested

1239
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 1: to members of Congress, I don't know what I'm.

1240
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 3: Gonna do about.

1241
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:57,120
Speaker 1: It's like, I'm sorry, we're back in the dystopian.

1242
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,640
Speaker 2: Sorry for me, and the hypothetical end point has been

1243
01:03:00,680 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 2: has given me solace. And I really think there's a

1244
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,120
Speaker 2: lot of really interesting people in the Democrat Party that

1245
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 2: are really being, you know, amazing figures right now, saying

1246
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:12,760
Speaker 2: things I really am responding to and seem to really

1247
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:16,040
Speaker 2: get it. So like who I mean, I love Senator Fetterman.

1248
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 2: He's my favorite Democrat. Mayor Pete. I saw something uh

1249
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 2: he did at I believe Harvard maybe you were there

1250
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,600
Speaker 2: at the same time, talking about the future. And he's

1251
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,040
Speaker 2: just very I don't agree with his so much of

1252
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 2: his policies, but I love his tone.

1253
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: It's very calm, it's very like nurturing.

1254
01:03:32,400 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 1: It's very like so intelligent.

1255
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he just he he makes me, he relaxes me.

1256
01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:41,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if that sometimes with politicians it's just

1257
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 2: like there their area and their their vibe makes you

1258
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,800
Speaker 2: feel calm. And I think he has a really brave future.

1259
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 2: I always have. Who else, Seth Moulton. I think he's

1260
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:56,440
Speaker 2: some interesting comments recently, Corey Booker. I still really think

1261
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 2: that he's like, you know, very measured and normal and

1262
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: will work with the other side. There's quite a few

1263
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 2: I would point to that I think are are you

1264
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 2: know that unfortunately the most radical sides drown out the

1265
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 2: interesting things that they're saying.

1266
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 1: Well, Meghan, I could talk to you for a lot longer,

1267
01:04:12,120 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: but we've gone on and on, and I really appreciate

1268
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:17,840
Speaker 1: you spending time with me. I've really enjoyed it. I

1269
01:04:17,880 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 1: was looking forward to our conversation and I'm really grateful

1270
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: for it. So thank you so much.

1271
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 3: Thank you, Katie. You're a legend icon.

1272
01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 2: And I have a baby podcast where I interview people,

1273
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,479
Speaker 2: and I was like, there's a reason why Katie herks

1274
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:35,120
Speaker 2: Katy Correig this like you are following up doing like

1275
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,240
Speaker 2: baking questions while research.

1276
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:39,040
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I've had I've had a lot

1277
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 1: of practice, Meghan, like forty plus years. I'm sure you're

1278
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:48,600
Speaker 1: doing a great job. But again, you have a substack,

1279
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: and what is your substack called.

1280
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:53,520
Speaker 2: Megan McCain dot substack dot com. And I have a

1281
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:56,800
Speaker 2: podcast called Citizen McCain, which is very bipartisan too. I've

1282
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 2: only since the election, I've only had Democrats on.

1283
01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: So we'll look forward to listening to those episodes as well.

1284
01:05:02,920 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: Thanks Megan, thank you, and give my best to your

1285
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: mom too. She's doing incredible work.

1286
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:11,560
Speaker 3: She's in Rome and she's never come back. Katie.

1287
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 2: I wanted her to come back, and she's like, that's

1288
01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 2: all Trump's over, and I was like, we're just going

1289
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 2: to live in Rome, Like okay.

1290
01:05:17,680 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 3: She's just going to come back from Rome that till

1291
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 3: it's over.

1292
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:24,600
Speaker 2: She's like she's one of those people and she's like,

1293
01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:26,680
Speaker 2: come visit me in Rome. And obviously room's incredible, but

1294
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just I think she's just like

1295
01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:33,000
Speaker 2: she's been more emotionally impacted obviously than anyone, so I

1296
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 2: think she's just like peace.

1297
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Speaker 1: Well, she's done incredible work. Tell everyone what she's been doing,

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Speaker 1: because I don't think everyone knows.

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Speaker 3: My mother.

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Speaker 2: Haads the World Food Program and she was the Ambassador

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01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,480
Speaker 2: World Food Program and then she became the I think

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01:05:46,480 --> 01:05:48,240
Speaker 2: she has an official title, but she leads it and

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01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 2: she focuses on food security and making sure that nations

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Speaker 2: like Somalia get the food that they need. And literally

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Speaker 2: every time I talk to her or call her, she's

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Speaker 2: in a different and she's very dedicated to her work.

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Speaker 3: And she's a true humanitarian.

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Speaker 2: And I always say, you know, I'm so controversial and

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Speaker 2: people love me or hate me, but everybody loves my mom.

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Speaker 1: Like ever she's doing, she's definitely doing God's work. So

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, Thanks for listening everyone. If you

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Speaker 1: have a question for me, a subject you want us

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01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 1: to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about

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01:06:31,600 --> 01:06:35,120
Speaker 1: how you navigate this crazy world, reach out. You can

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01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,720
Speaker 1: leave a short message at six oh nine five point two,

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01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: five to five oh five, or you can send me

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01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 1: a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.

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Speaker 1: Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media.

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Speaker 1: The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz.

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01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are

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Speaker 1: Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme music.

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Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up

1323
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 1: for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description

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01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:14,320
Speaker 1: in the podcast app or visit us at Katiecuric dot com.

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01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 1: You can also find me on Instagram and all my

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Speaker 1: social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio visit the

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Speaker 1: favorite shows.