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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you

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Speaker 2: should Know, the great Man version of History edition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great Man, Except this is an interesting episode because

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Speaker 1: Robert Maxwell was kind of a horrible person in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways. He achieved a lot of things, he

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Speaker 1: also did a lot of terrible things, so it was interesting.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know much about this guy at all, and

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Speaker 1: I can't remember if I heard about him because he's

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Speaker 1: the father of Glaine.

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Speaker 2: Maxwell, but which makes him even worse.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean yeah, I'm not sure where this

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Speaker 1: came from though, because this one was like a year

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Speaker 1: and a half ago. That we wreck was the article,

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Speaker 1: and it had just been gathering dust, and so we

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Speaker 1: dusted it off and now we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: this jerk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, great Man. History, by the way, is it's a

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Speaker 2: way of interpreting history through the leader's political and social

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Speaker 2: military Leaders like the people who make history happen, rather

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Speaker 2: than society or individual people. The problem is is that

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Speaker 2: those great men usually are not great people, like personally speaking,

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Speaker 2: And this is a really good example He was revered

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Speaker 2: because he was super rich, but he was also, I

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Speaker 2: have to say, a very interesting person. I think he

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Speaker 2: was a big liar in a lot of ways, but

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Speaker 2: stuff that he claimed that could be proven was still

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Speaker 2: pretty nuts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I mean he was just the broadest overview.

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Speaker 1: He was a tycoon, he was a bully, he escaped

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Speaker 1: Nazi German and he's rath. He was a decorated British soldier.

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Speaker 1: He was a member of parliament. He was also a

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Speaker 1: crook who stole from the pensions of companies he started,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of like terrible business dealings. It sounds

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Speaker 1: like it was a pretty awful husband and father at

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Speaker 1: the same time.

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Speaker 2: Well there's the episode.

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Speaker 1: Well let's talk about him. He was born Jan Ludwig

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Speaker 1: Hoch in nineteen twenty three and Slatvignon, which was Czechoslovaki

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Speaker 1: at the time. It's now Ukraine. But he was from

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Speaker 1: a you know, he was very poor, He was raised

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Speaker 1: very poors from a big family. His father seems like

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Speaker 1: it was a pretty awful guy too, So you know,

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Speaker 1: behind every awful person is usually an awful parent or two.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's intergenerational.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the way it generally works.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, and that's why I never had kids.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, so yeah, he said at.

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Speaker 2: One point, I was never young. I never had that privilege.

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Speaker 2: And it was basically because his family was so poverty

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Speaker 2: stricken and his father was such a jerk that he

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Speaker 2: wasn't He didn't have much of a childhood, but he

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Speaker 2: did remember that he loved his mother like his whole

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Speaker 2: life from childhood on, and he would use her as

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Speaker 2: an example of what his children needed to aspire to.

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Speaker 2: You know, this woman who could handle raising all these

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Speaker 2: kids in these terrible conditions and still you know, be beloved.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I mean suffered from hunger as a child and

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Speaker 1: had some disordered eating as an adult and that sort

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Speaker 1: of gorging himself on food. And his wife, his later wife, Betty,

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Speaker 1: would say that, you know, she thinks that all came

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Speaker 1: back from the hunger that he had as a child. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: He was Jewish. He was from a Jewish family, and

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Speaker 1: like I mentioned earlier, he managed to escape the god

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Speaker 1: I think kind of the only member of his family

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Speaker 1: to escape the Nazis in March of nineteen thirty nine

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Speaker 1: when they invaded Czechoslovakia, cutting off his sidelocks and like

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Speaker 1: getting the heck out of there, and for a lot

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Speaker 1: of his adult life, like I don't know if he

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Speaker 1: denied it, but never came forward as being Jewish, like

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Speaker 1: changing his name and everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was low key Jewish for a lot of

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Speaker 2: his life until later on when he was talked into

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Speaker 2: I guess coming out. I don't know what you would

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Speaker 2: call it in that sense. Yeah, but you said that

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Speaker 2: he escaped the Nazi takeover of Czechoslovakia, and he definitely did,

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Speaker 2: but very quickly he turned right around and went back

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Speaker 2: to join the Hungarian underground in Budapest, and he was

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Speaker 2: essentially trying to move, like people escaping like him, further

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Speaker 2: on to safety because Hungary still wasn't you know, safety,

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Speaker 2: It was better than being in Czechoslovakia, but he still

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Speaker 2: needed to keep moving and he was going to help people.

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Speaker 2: And almost immediately he was captured and and tortured as

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Speaker 2: a member of the Czech resistance, which is not what

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Speaker 2: you wanted the Nazis to consider you.

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Speaker 1: No, apparently there was going to be no trial at all,

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Speaker 1: and then the French embassy stepped in and because he

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Speaker 1: had a planned execution and arrange what seems to be

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Speaker 1: like a sham of a trial and he ended up escaping,

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Speaker 1: escaping like on the way to prison. So you know, again,

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Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff is from his authorized biography

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Speaker 1: and stories he told, some of which was no doubt

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Speaker 1: like embellished. Probably, so he seems like one of those

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Speaker 1: guys that would like kind of pump up a story

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Speaker 1: about himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, no, agreed, He's definitely that type for sure. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but he escaped, like you said, literally with his life.

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Speaker 2: He escaped with his life because he would almost certainly

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Speaker 2: have been executed, and he joined the Foreign Legion in

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Speaker 2: France and they sent him to England because France was

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Speaker 2: overtaken by the Nazis as well, and in England he

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Speaker 2: basically found a new home. He signed up for the

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Speaker 2: British Army. He was there when Normandy was stormed, and

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Speaker 2: he also displayed like real actual valor, both valor and ruthlessness.

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Speaker 2: Kyle helped us with this, and Kyle really loved to

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Speaker 2: focus on ruthlessness, which in these cases is a synonym

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Speaker 2: for war crimes. Cut and dried war crimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, he really tried to remake himself as

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Speaker 1: a British guy like pretty successfully, Like I said, he

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Speaker 1: changed his name a couple of times, eventually landing on

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Speaker 1: Ian Robert Maxwell, and like taught himself English, apparently would

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Speaker 1: listen to churchill speeches, so he would get that sort

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Speaker 1: of that grand English accent that Churchill had. Sure, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: he you know, flat out admitted to he had a

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Speaker 1: real knack for like going undercover and doing like special

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Speaker 1: ops and stuff, but also, like you said, disobeying orders

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Speaker 1: and being pretty ruthless. Like he like admitted to his

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Speaker 1: wife in a letter that he like executed more than

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Speaker 1: one like unarmed German person, including a mayor in Germany.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, civilian even Yeah. Yeah, and again that's a war crime,

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Speaker 2: and he would later be investigated for it, but they

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Speaker 2: were not able to find anyone who could corroborate that

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Speaker 2: any witness said yes I saw him shoot that mayor,

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Speaker 2: or yes I saw him shoot those unarmed troops who surrendered,

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Speaker 2: So they had to close the case. So is that

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Speaker 2: a case of him just pumping up his own legend again?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, but again the stuff that can be

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Speaker 2: verified is kind of amazing. Like he did work for

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Speaker 2: the British intelligence after the war. He ended up being

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Speaker 2: recruited by six it's six, right, yeah. Six. He could

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Speaker 2: speak English, German, French, Yiddish, Hungarian, Czech, and Romanian by

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Speaker 2: the end of the war, so he was extremely valuable

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Speaker 2: post war while Europe was being divvied up and being

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Speaker 2: rebuilt and people were having to interact with all these

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Speaker 2: other countries. And he'd also changed his identity four times

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Speaker 2: before then too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but like you said, he legit achieved in the

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Speaker 1: armed forces. He worked his way up eventually to become

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Speaker 1: a second lieutenant in the Queen's Royal Regiment and had

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Speaker 1: a very apparently daring rescue for a trapped Allied platoon

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Speaker 1: in the Netherlands and received a military cross, like a

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Speaker 1: Distinguished Service Military Cross. So again, it's sort of a

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Speaker 1: conundrum with this guy because he did learn all those languages,

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Speaker 1: and he was a very valuable person for I six

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Speaker 1: and did some spy work. But there was also rumors

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Speaker 1: over the years that he was and we'll get into

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Speaker 1: this a little bit more, but like he spiled he spied

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Speaker 1: for the Soviet Union, or that he spied for Israel's.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that anyone knows the real truth behind

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Speaker 1: that stuff.

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Speaker 2: No, but it is the more you know about him,

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Speaker 2: the easier it is to believe that that's quite possible,

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Speaker 2: you know, for sure. So he made it through the

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Speaker 2: war quite successfully. He was stationed in Berlin, I think

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Speaker 2: at the end of it he was interviewing German prisoners

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Speaker 2: of war to get as much intelligence out of them

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Speaker 2: as possible. And so while there he was also in

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Speaker 2: the chaos of all of this, of Europe being devastated

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Speaker 2: and just beginning to rebuild. There's a lot of money

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Speaker 2: to be made. It's like in that Spike Lee movie

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Speaker 2: The Inside Man.

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Speaker 1: Yea, that and that's like one of the better later

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Speaker 1: Spike Lee is I know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's one of the better, like just suspense movies too.

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Speaker 2: It's really well done. Great movie, please see it. But anyway,

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Speaker 2: in one part, Christopher Plumber says, when there's blood on

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Speaker 2: the street, by real estate, and that was essentially what

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Speaker 2: Europe was like at this time. And Robert Maxwell was

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Speaker 2: exactly the kind of person to buy real estate when

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Speaker 2: there was blood on the street. So he was making

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Speaker 2: all sorts of money on the side, just taking advantage

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Speaker 2: of the desperation of the people who he was interacting with.

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Speaker 2: And in addition, like other business opportunities came up and

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Speaker 2: improbably if you ask me, he ended up in the

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Speaker 2: scientific publishing world, Yeah, and became essentially like a scientific

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Speaker 2: publishing magnate in the coming decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So while he was in Berlin, he was working

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Speaker 1: with dere Telegraph and that paper was owned by Springer

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Speaker 1: Verlog to two words with a dash in the middle.

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Speaker 1: I think Verlog was a big academic publisher, which is

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Speaker 1: kind of like you mentioned where we were headed with this.

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Speaker 1: He met the publisher Ferdinand Springer, and he learned that

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Speaker 1: there were like, you know, more than sixty thousand books

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Speaker 1: and journals like stockpiled in a warehouse and they had

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Speaker 1: been you know, like away from public view since nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty nine, like pre war. And so his wheels started

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Speaker 1: turning on how he can make some money. And then,

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Speaker 1: along with his eventual business partner, this guy named Paul

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Speaker 1: Rosebaud started a company I guess bought his way into

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Speaker 1: a company called Butterworth Springer, which was rebranded Pergamon Press,

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Speaker 1: and they got a deal with Springer Verlog to get

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Speaker 1: these books, like these scientific textbooks out into the world.

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Speaker 1: And he got six to finance this deal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, they basically paid for three hundred tons. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: three hundred tons of books and journals to be shipped

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Speaker 2: to London so that they could be translated and then

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Speaker 2: published for money, like you said. And they also he said,

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Speaker 2: I want to buy some shares in the company too,

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Speaker 2: So they gave him twenty five thousand pounds and I

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Speaker 2: did some back of the envelope work.

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, you're not gonna call it maths, are you?

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Speaker 2: No? I wouldn't even dare. But that is about eight

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Speaker 2: hundred and eighty five thousand US dollars today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And if you're wondering, like, well, how did he

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Speaker 1: get I six? Like why would they invest secretly invest

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Speaker 1: in something like this, I think he well, you know

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Speaker 1: everything we're about to say, the guy take a base value.

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Speaker 1: But one thing he was really good at was like

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Speaker 1: he could be very charming. He was kind of a

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Speaker 1: jekyline hide from what I saw, So as awful as

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Speaker 1: he could be, he could also be super charming and

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Speaker 1: like work his way into a room or work his

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Speaker 1: way into a deal. And I think that's what he

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Speaker 1: did with I six, when he basically was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: having all these German scientific research books is good. It's

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Speaker 1: like an asset to US an intelligence asset, maybe a

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Speaker 1: propaganda tool, and m I six bought it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll put his role in academic publishing to

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Speaker 2: the side, but just suffice to say that the current

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Speaker 2: state of affairs where journals determine what science has conducted,

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Speaker 2: and the scientific community as a whole has kind of

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Speaker 2: shied away or moved away from doing its job the

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Speaker 2: way it should be and instead conducting experiments and studies

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Speaker 2: that will get published. Their eye popping that actually came

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Speaker 2: from Robert Maxwell and the way that he changed the industry.

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Speaker 1: Oh interesting.

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Speaker 2: There's a really good long form Guardian article from twenty

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Speaker 2: seventeen called is the staggeringly profitable business of scientific publishing

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Speaker 2: Bad for science? And you can guess that the answer

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Speaker 2: is yes. But it talks a lot about this and

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Speaker 2: other stuff too. But it's a good article. I'd say

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Speaker 2: go read that if you're interested.

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Speaker 1: All right, we'll check it out. Should we take a break, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, I'll go read the article right now. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back in what twenty minutes or so?

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Speaker 2: Sure?

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Speaker 1: All right, be right back.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things about Maxwell was he when

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Speaker 2: he got into scientific publishing, he really went like full

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Speaker 2: bore into it, and his whole jam with business was

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Speaker 2: like buy one thing and then use it to buy buy,

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Speaker 2: buy another thing, start another thing. Like basically get into

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Speaker 2: one industry and just mushroom everywhere. You can't because the

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Speaker 2: more stuff you have, the more money you can soak

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Speaker 2: up in that industry or that sector. Right. So he

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Speaker 2: bought another publisher, Simpkin Marshall, And this is a really

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Speaker 2: good demonstration of his business techniques. He bought it with

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Speaker 2: the loan from a business partner. The business partner came

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Speaker 2: back and was like, Hey, how's Simpkin Marshall doing? And

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Speaker 2: Maxwell was like, no, I'm not, I'm not at liberty

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Speaker 2: to say. The guy found out that the company was

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Speaker 2: severely in debt and he had borrowed. Maxwell had borrowed

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Speaker 2: a ton of money against the company's credit. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: then sold off all the assets and kept the money

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Speaker 2: for himself. And this publishing house, which had been around

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Speaker 2: for more than a century went under thanks to Robert

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Speaker 2: Maxwell raiding it. And it was essentially proto private equity

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Speaker 2: like move that he did. That's what private equity does, Chuck.

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Speaker 2: Have you been to Dunkin Donuts lately?

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Speaker 1: Uh? No, I don't go there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't normally either, but I went and got

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Speaker 2: a coffee and I walked in and I was like, God,

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Speaker 2: this place is just it's like the like a death

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Speaker 2: march in here. This is awful, like every like the

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Speaker 2: employees hated their life, Like stuff was broken, like a

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Speaker 2: serve your self machine was there next to the cash register.

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Speaker 2: It was just terrible. And I was like, I'll bet

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Speaker 2: private equity owns this now, and sure enough two years

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Speaker 2: ago private equity brow Yep. They do it like anytime

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Speaker 2: you are in like you work with a business or

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Speaker 2: you like a store or something like that, and it

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Speaker 2: suddenly goes downhill. Go online and search that business in

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Speaker 2: private equity, and I guarantee you private equity got involved,

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Speaker 2: and it's just running it into the ground because they

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Speaker 2: don't care.

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Speaker 1: So he was doing something like this in the nineteen fifties,

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Speaker 1: which is crazy, and it seemed like, you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of time. He was definitely not afraid to burn

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Speaker 1: bridges because apparently he didn't even repay that loan to

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Speaker 1: the guy who loaned him the money. For Simpkin Marshall right,

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Speaker 1: there was a rag called the Private Eye, or called

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Speaker 1: Private Eye that called him the bouncing check as in Czechoslovakian.

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Speaker 1: So he definitely had a reputation of you know, just

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Speaker 1: doing what he could by hooker crook to get something

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Speaker 1: done and then like walking away and leaving people penniless

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Speaker 1: behind him. That Springer ver Loog who got him that

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Speaker 1: first deal. They ended up severing contact with him in

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty eight Pergamon Press he lost control of would

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Speaker 1: eventually take it back, but during a seventy one Board

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Speaker 1: of Trade inquiry they said he was They declared he

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Speaker 1: was unfit to run a public company. So, like his

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Speaker 1: reputation was well known even back then.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a big deal when the government

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Speaker 2: says you you can't be a CEO. Sorry they Yeah,

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Speaker 2: like the board says you can. We're saying you cannot

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Speaker 2: because you are that untrustworthy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah for sure.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: And later in life, well not that much later, he

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Speaker 1: would find an enemy, a grave enemy, in the nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixties with a guy, an Australian named Rupert Murdoch. So

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Speaker 1: we talked about Murdoch in our episode on the on

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Speaker 1: News on the news.

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Speaker 2: Cycle twenty four hour cable news.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty four hour cable news. So everyone knows who

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Speaker 1: Rupert Murdoch is if Fox News. He and Maxwell were

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Speaker 1: grave enemies, and it seems like Maxwell was pretty much

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Speaker 1: obsessed with trying to outdo him, Like anytime he would

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Speaker 1: go to buy a newspaper, Murdock seemed to be right

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Speaker 1: there in front of him buying it, and he ended

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Speaker 1: up buying the left wing. Maxwell did the left wing

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Speaker 1: Daily Mirror just to counter Murdoch's right wing buys. Like

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Speaker 1: by all accounts, Maxwell was never even though he would

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Speaker 1: eventually be in Parliament as the Labor Party, like he

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Speaker 1: said that he was conservative, but he wasn't part of

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Speaker 1: the Conservative establishment, so he would just be like, all right,

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Speaker 1: part of the Labor Party, or I'll buy this left

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Speaker 1: wing newspaper.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it just made sense financially, so you know,

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Speaker 2: he could be whatever whatever he needed to be. I

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Speaker 2: guess in that sense, it kind of demonstrates that to me,

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Speaker 2: I was reading about Rupert Murdoch in him their rivalry,

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Speaker 2: and apparently it was one of those rivalries like where

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Speaker 2: it meant everything to Robert Maxwell and Rupert Murdoch was

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Speaker 2: like who oh, yeah, I remember him whatever, like and

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Speaker 2: that just drove Robert Maxwell crazier and crazier and just

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Speaker 2: made him want to, you know, compete with Rupert Murdoch.

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Speaker 2: Like Rupert Murdoch was really competing and he would just

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Speaker 2: buy paper after paper, like they would be directly competing

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Speaker 2: trying to buy a newspaper. But Murdoch most of the

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Speaker 2: time won. And he said later on that his impression

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Speaker 2: of Robert Maxwell is that he was a total buffoon, really,

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Speaker 2: like he was just this boastful guy who wanted to

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Speaker 2: win but would get in his own way in the

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Speaker 2: process of winning. That was kind of what his personality

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Speaker 2: was like.

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Speaker 1: And by kind of, I mean yeah Murdoch. They talked

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Speaker 1: about the Max factor, a play on the Uh. Was

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Speaker 1: that like a makeup or something.

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Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, I think there's like a makeup line.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, max factor, But they would use that as not

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Speaker 1: a compliment, Like the max factor wasn't like, hey, this

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Speaker 1: guy's great, he can go in and close deals. It

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Speaker 1: was more like he loses out on deals because of

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Speaker 1: the Max factor because no one wants to deal with

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Speaker 1: this guy exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean like people got in bed with him

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Speaker 2: be because they had no choice. He had just bought

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Speaker 2: their company. He was now their boss. People didn't get

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Speaker 2: into bed or business. I guess I should probably say

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Speaker 2: with him because they liked him or they wanted to

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Speaker 2: they they were usually they just found themselves in the

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Speaker 2: unfortunate situation of having to work closely with him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But he bought the Daily Mirror in

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Speaker 1: eighty four, he started the London Daily News in eighty seven.

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Speaker 1: He started another paper that was sort of what I

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Speaker 1: understand is like a European USA today, called European in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety. So he's, you know, he's launching all these

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Speaker 1: newspapers and then eventually he says, all right, I need

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Speaker 1: to look toward the States and ends up buying McMillan

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Speaker 1: US and nineteen eighty eight for two point six billion

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Speaker 1: dollars money in nineteen eighty eight, oh totally, and something

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Speaker 1: called the Official Aviation Guide in for seven hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty million.

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Speaker 2: Dollars, which again that's a crazy amount of money in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty eight. So he was this spending spree, especially

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Speaker 2: in the US where he's trying to take on Murdoch again.

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Speaker 2: I think Murdoch had already bought The New York Post

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Speaker 2: by this time. It was a lot like the USSR

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Speaker 2: being driven to extinction by spending, the US spending having

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Speaker 2: to keep up with spending. Yeah, Rupert Murdoch would go

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Speaker 2: do something, and now he was in the United States,

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Speaker 2: so now Robert Maxwell had to do it, and Robert

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Speaker 2: Maxwell had to outdo him. So he started spending money

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Speaker 2: he didn't have and was expanding his empire, and his

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Speaker 2: empire started to lose its foundation, it started to crumble

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Speaker 2: financially because of him trying to keep up.

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Speaker 1: Essentially, Yeah, that's a great analogy. Actually, in February ninety one,

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Speaker 1: he bought the New York Daily News, and that's one

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Speaker 1: where Murdoch kind of rubbed it in his face because

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Speaker 1: as soon as Maxwell bought it, he was like, all right,

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Speaker 1: the publisher needs to call Rupert Murdoch and tell him

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Speaker 1: that Robert Maxwell just bought the New York Daily News.

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Speaker 1: And apparently Murdoch like laughed at this and said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: thank Bob for the courtesy of that, like basically like

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Speaker 1: I didn't want that ate like failing paper anyway.

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Speaker 2: Sure, there's one other thing that he very famously lost

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Speaker 2: out on, and we must have talked about him in

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Speaker 2: our episode on Tetris. The Wild History of Tetris. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 2: two twenty twenty four. I think it's how weird people

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Speaker 2: put it. He owned Mirrorsoft at the time, and mirror

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Speaker 2: Soft had Tetris in their hands and just through a

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Speaker 2: series of miscommunications and bad deals, lost it. And had

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Speaker 2: they had Tetris, who knows what that would be because

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Speaker 2: they were already a powerhouse in video games, especially in

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Speaker 2: the UK, And if they had continued owning Tetris, they

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Speaker 2: might have they might still be around. But because they

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Speaker 2: lost it under Maxwell, it's just another huge black eye

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Speaker 2: on his reputation as a businessman.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. So I mentioned politics early on in

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Speaker 1: parliament and that he was a conservative of human in

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Speaker 1: his heart, but because he wasn't part of that establishment,

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Speaker 1: he was like, all right, I'll go to the labor

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Speaker 1: parties and that's what he did. He became a Labor

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Speaker 1: Party member of Parliament from sixty four to seventy and

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Speaker 1: he was like, you know, he's one of these politicians

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Speaker 1: kind of say whatever just to get in there. And

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Speaker 1: he was like, you know what, I came from a

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Speaker 1: farm laborer's background and I had no money, so like,

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Speaker 1: I'm basically a socialist. Even though he was the farthest

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Speaker 1: thing from that in reality, and was just they called

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Speaker 1: him the biggest gas bag in the Commons. Like he

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Speaker 1: was not well liked within the House, the walls of Parliament.

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Speaker 1: Apparently no one liked working with him. There were a

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Speaker 1: lot of rumors floating around about various improprieties. There was

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Speaker 1: one rumor that he sold part of the Palace of

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Speaker 1: Westminster's wine cellar to an anonymous buyer for like way

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Speaker 1: less than what it was worth. I didn't see if

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Speaker 1: that was really true. But the point is no.

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Speaker 2: One liked him in Parliament apparently no, And it's believable,

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Speaker 2: like you could, you wouldn't put it past him.

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Speaker 1: That's just his reputation, right, Yeah, but I mean he

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Speaker 1: won election and re election.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Apparently right before his election he was he was

427
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Speaker 2: arrested shaving the day before while he was driving ninety miles.

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Speaker 1: An hour, shaving while driving. Yeah, an s UI or no,

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Speaker 1: I guess it would be DUS no, no DWS driving

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Speaker 1: while shaving.

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Speaker 2: Goo. Yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 1: God, it took me a while.

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Speaker 2: Should we take a break and then come back and

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Speaker 2: talk about that max factor?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we're going to do that guys.

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Speaker 1: All right, more promise of talking about the max factor,

438
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: which was not a compliment for this guy. I mentioned

439
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: early on that he was a bit of a bully.

440
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: Apparently he was well known for just sort of his

441
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:19,360
Speaker 1: atrocious behavior. There was a Daily Mirror editor named Roy

442
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: Greensdale who said when they were first met at this restaurant,

443
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: he walked in Maxwell and like just like swept everything

444
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: off the table, all the cutlery, saying like it wasn't

445
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,120
Speaker 1: laid out correctly. And apparently he had done that more

446
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,520
Speaker 1: than once. He would bring his kids into work and

447
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 1: like belittle and lecture the staff, like to impress his kids.

448
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,880
Speaker 1: He would file fire people while they were on vacation.

449
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 1: He would leave the door to this bathroom open. Apparently

450
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: he would urinate off the top of the building. Just

451
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 1: real boorish behavior.

452
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 2: Yeah. At the same time, though, he's like cultivating this

453
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: English gentleman persona, which was very much encapsulated by his accent.

454
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: He didn't sound anything like someone who was born and

455
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: raised in Czechoslovakia, not at all. No, he was like,

456
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 2: I mean, being elected as a member of parliament, it's

457
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: pretty good for your reputation. So like we know, so

458
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 2: much about him now and like what he did throughout

459
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: his life, his image now is not what his image

460
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: was when he was, you know, alive and working and

461
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 2: working in Parliament and doing all that stuff. I think

462
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 2: people who worked closely with them knew what he was like,

463
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: but I think in general he was just kind of

464
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 2: this viewed as this larger than life personality by the

465
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: public who knew about him.

466
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. But yeah, he was a blowhart.

467
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,439
Speaker 1: He would do things like if someone walked into his office,

468
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: he would say, like, give me the White House on

469
00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: the phone, and then apparently just have like a fake

470
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 1: conversation on the telephone to the White House.

471
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 2: That's like, that's what insane people do.

472
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I only do that if I'm trying

473
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: to avoid somebody in public.

474
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 2: Sure, did you even make the dialing sound like pee

475
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 2: poop poop poop?

476
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 1: Py? I do? I got a call? Sorry. He was

477
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: not a good father and husband. Like I mentioned earlier.

478
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: He lived in this huge mansion called Headington Hill Hall,

479
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: which was at least from the Oxford City Council and

480
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 1: apparently was like he would at dinner time he would

481
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: assign his children topics that they had to like impress

482
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: him with and he would judge them. Apparently there was

483
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: physical abuse. He cheated on his wife like time and

484
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: time again. His wife described him as as bullying, but

485
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: would also take up for him at times.

486
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 2: You know, yeah, she said the bar pretty low. She

487
00:27:54,480 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: said he was he was no degenerate monster, right. He

488
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 2: was also famous for he gave her six rules for

489
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 2: basically getting along in a lasting partnership. And it depends

490
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 2: on how you look at it. And you could look

491
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: at it like he is a domineering bully, who was

492
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 2: you know making his wife adhere to these rules that

493
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,480
Speaker 2: he was laying down. But if you if you read

494
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 2: all the rules, it's actually these are actually pretty good

495
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: sensible rules for for maintaining a partnership that if both

496
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:31,919
Speaker 2: people honor it, then then you've got something good. If

497
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: you if it's just one person, then you've got a problem.

498
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got the impression it was, here are your

499
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: six rules that you need to do to stay married

500
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: to me.

501
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I wouldn't put it past him.

502
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, we'll go over them real quick. But

503
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: in the context of this is what you need to

504
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: do and not this is what I pledged to do

505
00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: for you, right. Number one, don't nag because I love

506
00:28:55,080 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: that's his number one. Number two, don't criticize unduly. Number three,

507
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 1: give honest appreciation. Number four paid little attentions. Sweet to

508
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: me is what he was saying. Number five, be courteous

509
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: to me. And then number six had the utmost confidence

510
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: in yourself in me.

511
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, really, if two people come at a

512
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: relationship like that, look observing those six I guess rules

513
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 2: or guidelines or whatever. I think that's kind of good.

514
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: But yes, I'm quite sure you're right that. He was like,

515
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 2: here's what you need to do for me.

516
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

517
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: And he used it against her too. He said, like,

518
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: don't nag me about me doing these rules. That's rule

519
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 2: number one.

520
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right. You don't talk about fight club.

521
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: He got her with the legal mumbo jumbo.

522
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 1: He had, you know, quite a few kids. He lost,

523
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 1: very sadly a couple of them. He lost a daughter, Karein,

524
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 1: of leukemia at age three, and they had a son

525
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: named Michael that died at age twenty one after being

526
00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 1: in a coma after a car crash. Like the little

527
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: apple of his eye was young Gallaine. He named his

528
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: yacht after her Lady Gallaine. And even though she had

529
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: a hard time impressing him at times, it seems like.

530
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, supposedly she put herself on his radar at age

531
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 2: three when she went and presented herself in front of

532
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 2: her mom and said, Mommy, I exist, Yeah, as a

533
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: three year old, And I guess that really captured Robert

534
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: Maxwell's attention, and from that point on he was She

535
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 2: was very clearly his favorite. Yeah. But yeah, even still

536
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: I don't think like it seems like he was. He

537
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: would still berate her at the drop of a hat

538
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: or something like that. He just maybe did it slightly

539
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: less than he did to others, or maybe he didn't

540
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: beat her. I'm not sure, but everyone knew that she

541
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 2: was the favorite. Although when it came to business, it

542
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 2: was his two sons that he brought into business with him,

543
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 2: not his daughter, not his wife. And when he died,

544
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: his philosophy was that you didn't leave your estate to

545
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: a woman. So he didn't leave anything to Gallen, he

546
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: didn't leave anything to his wife. He left it all

547
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: to his sons. In this case, that turned out to

548
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,360
Speaker 2: be quite yeah, quite a bit of baggage. Not not

549
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: anything good.

550
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll get to that. So he died under shady circumstances.

551
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk a little bit about his death

552
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: and then sort of everything that was happening to him

553
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,440
Speaker 1: at that time, which leads people to speculate like was

554
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: it suicide, was it murder, or was it an accident?

555
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: But was on November well, he did have the max factor.

556
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: On November fifth, nineteen ninety one, when he was sixty eight,

557
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: he fell to his death from his yacht, his fifteen

558
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: million pound Lady Gallaine. And he had earlier that year

559
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 1: he had sailed into Manhattan to buy the New York

560
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: Daily News. That's what I mentioned was nineteen ninety one,

561
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: and then in the fall he sort of splur the

562
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 1: moment trip to the Canary Islands, where looking back, crew

563
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 1: members were like, it was weird and that he showed

564
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,880
Speaker 1: it by himself, which was unusual, didn't have like his

565
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: butler or his like people like his caretakers. And they

566
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: said he also seemed like in really good spirits, which

567
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: was sort of unusual. And he didn't work while he

568
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: was on board, which was super unusual.

569
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so he was essentially getting away from his world,

570
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: collapsing in on him. Yeah, like he said that he

571
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: needed to go do something, I think, but there was

572
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: no one who was fooled. Like he was just trying

573
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: to get away from things. That's especially kind of signaled

574
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 2: by the fact that he didn't work. Apparently there was

575
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: no line between his private life and his business life,

576
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 2: so he was always working.

577
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah. And you know when you were talking about

578
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: business collapsing, like you know, financial failures, but also sort

579
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: of his his schemes, like you know, the walls closing

580
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 1: in on his schemes. Like you mentioned, he was basically

581
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: raiding his companies for profit a lot of the times

582
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: from the pension funds. I think it ended up being

583
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: close to close to five hundred million pounds from pension funds.

584
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: You do not do that, man, No.

585
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 1: And he was at the same time he was selling pergamon,

586
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 1: he was secretly buying shares in his companies to prop

587
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: up stock prices, like while he was trying to rid

588
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: himself of these things.

589
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was. He was in a really bad spot

590
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: because a bunch of factors basically came together to have

591
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:36,200
Speaker 2: all of his creditors basically call in all his debts

592
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: at once, right, Yeah, And he had used those pension

593
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 2: funds as collateral, which is that's on Lehman Brothers, that's

594
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: on Goldman Sachs, like, you should not take pension funds

595
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,400
Speaker 2: as collateral, even if and he was fully legally in

596
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 2: charge of those pension funds, so he legally could do that,

597
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: but just being a banker like that and knowing the

598
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 2: look that the optics of being like, yep, give us

599
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 2: those pension fund because we're calling in a debt you

600
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 2: can't repay. Of course, that's just a terrible collateral to take.

601
00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 2: That's neither here nor there as far as Robert Maxwell's concerned.

602
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: The other bankers though that held shares in his companies.

603
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: They were threatening to basically say, we're gonna sell these

604
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 2: shares that you gave us as collateral. We're gonna dump

605
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,399
Speaker 2: them on the market all at once, and that's gonna

606
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 2: drive your stock prices down even further, which is gonna

607
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 2: mean you have even less money to repay us. Yeah,

608
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: so he's getting it from every which way. And then

609
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: not to mention, they didn't know about the pension rating

610
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,400
Speaker 2: until after he was debt, so there was it was

611
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: not like people were beating the drum that anticipation was

612
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:41,240
Speaker 2: hanging over him as well.

613
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, he you know, seemed to be in

614
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: a pretty paranoid state. He had his his offices and

615
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: businesses bugged. Apparently he had his own house bugged, so

616
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: you could hear what his family was saying about him nuts.

617
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: And then there was this other sort of wall closing

618
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: in on him, and that there were allegations that he

619
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: was a spy for Israel. He had invested at one point,

620
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: I think about two hundred and fifty million pounds in

621
00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 1: just various Israeli companies. And in nineteen ninety one there

622
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: was a guy claiming to be a former intelligence officer

623
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 1: for Israel name Ari Ben Minashi who told the News

624
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,240
Speaker 1: that Maxwell and one of his editors that was working

625
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: with him at one of his papers were Israeli agents.

626
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: And apparently in nineteen eighty six there was a nuclear

627
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: scientist named Mordecai Venunu who went to London, as I

628
00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 1: guess is like a whistleblower saying that, like, there's a

629
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:45,920
Speaker 1: dangerous nuclear arms program happening in Israel, and he was

630
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: going to blow the lid off of it and sell

631
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: it to the Sunday Times, and Maxwell convinced him to

632
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 1: sell it to him instead to the Mirror. He ends

633
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: up sending that information to Israel as supposedly like to

634
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: fact check it and confirm it, but he ended up

635
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 1: stiffing Venunu for the money and never ran the story.

636
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a technique that billionaire tyrants who own news

637
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,919
Speaker 2: organs too. They'll it's like catch and catch and kill,

638
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 2: catch and kill. Yeah, or you buy the story, you

639
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 2: buy the exclusive rights to the story, and then you

640
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: don't publish it. You just sit on it to keep

641
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: the public from knowing about it.

642
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, that's what happened in this country. Remember,

643
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 1: happens a lot.

644
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: It's really messed up.

645
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: And as far as Venunu, he was later drugged and

646
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: kidnapped and jailed for eighteen years in Israel.

647
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:39,520
Speaker 2: Right, So Maxwell was like, I'm not an Israeli spy.

648
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: This is all just bs. And then Seymour Hirsch flew

649
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,280
Speaker 2: in with a book and in the book it wasn't

650
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: just about Maxwell, but he's tangentially in the book, and

651
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 2: Seymour Hirsch was like, yeah, that's all true. Seymour Hirsch

652
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 2: is one of the most indisputable journalists of all time.

653
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 2: If he says something is true, he has done so

654
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 2: much research on it that he's he'll stand behind it

655
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 2: every time, and most of the time it is, if

656
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: not every time, it's quite true. So he said that, yes,

657
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 2: this this guy was in Israeli spy all this time,

658
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: that he was a businessman too, and it got brought

659
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: up in parliament. In Great Britain, their libel laws are

660
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,520
Speaker 2: very heavy against the papers, and for good reason, so

661
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 2: the papers tend to kind of stay in line about

662
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 2: even talking about rumors like that. But once it was

663
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: brought up in parliament, now the papers could report on parliament,

664
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: mentioning it and dig into it, and they could report

665
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 2: on it without any fear of libel. So this is

666
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 2: going on at the same time too.

667
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 1: All right, So yeah, walls are closing in and you know, financially, professionally, politically,

668
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,280
Speaker 1: I guess, and this you know, whole spy allegation business.

669
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: So he falls off this yacht. Supposedly his last words

670
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: at four forty five am were complaining to the bridge

671
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: crew of out how the temperature in his cabin and

672
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: apparently this guy like peeing off the things, because apparently

673
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,280
Speaker 1: he went to pee off the back of the boat,

674
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: which they said was like a normal thing for him

675
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 1: to do, and then fell over a low rail and this,

676
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,839
Speaker 1: you know, this was a not the yacht where you're

677
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 1: falling from like six stories up. It's like a you know,

678
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 1: it was a yacht, but it wasn't like he was

679
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: falling from one hundred feet or something like that, so

680
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: it was like a low fall. And pathologists, like, no

681
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 1: one's ever agreed on what happened to him. Pathologists failed

682
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: to agree on anything besides he drowned. Some people said

683
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 1: he had a heart attack first. Some said that no,

684
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 1: he actually tore his arm muscles, so he was clearly

685
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: trying to hold on, so it wasn't suicide. They ended

686
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: up finding his naked body floating about fifteen miles away,

687
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: I think maybe the next in the next day or two,

688
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 1: and the whole thing was like, did he fall, did

689
00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: he jump? Or is it possible he was murdered? Has

690
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: been sort of the question since then.

691
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think the reason why he was he

692
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 2: drowned was because the ship was cruising at the time,

693
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 2: so without anyone knowing that he'd fallen over, he was

694
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere by the time that that

695
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 2: ship realized that he was gone hours later. Right, Yeah,

696
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: so let's start with these, Chuck, there's let's start with suicide.

697
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 2: You said, I think what kind of convinces most people

698
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: is he clearly on his way down, tried to grab

699
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,280
Speaker 2: onto the rail and pulled his his tore the muscles

700
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: on his side. I can barely say it. It just

701
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: sounds so painful. So he wanted to live, right, And

702
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: also it wasn't a high jump in the first place,

703
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: so suicide probably wasn't it. Some people who who some

704
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 2: of his biographies even were like, he would not have

705
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: done well with all the public attention that was about

706
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: to be unleashed on him. His reputation was about to

707
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: be completely ruined. Financially, he was about to be completely ruined.

708
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,799
Speaker 2: So yes, suicide makes sense. But again, that torn arm

709
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: muscles basically say now that that's just not what this was.

710
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, his family has always said

711
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,920
Speaker 1: it was an accident. Just I think beyond the arm muscles,

712
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: just I think they're knowing him. I think his wife

713
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,319
Speaker 1: said it just wasn't in his character. They thought he

714
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: was just the kind of guy that would never give up,

715
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 1: even facing all of this stuff. He would still like

716
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 1: try and fight his way or buy his way or

717
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: get loans to get out of this stuff. Most of

718
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: his family, I think, in closest people, were convinced it

719
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: was just an accident. There was one pathologist who argued

720
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 1: against suicide because of the arm thing for sure, or

721
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: the fact that he was naked. That seemed a little

722
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: strange I think to them as well.

723
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 2: So accident seems pretty pretty prominent, right, Yeah, there's also assassination.

724
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 2: Remember Israel was supposedly being outed as having used him

725
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: as a spy for years and years and years. That

726
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 2: wasn't enough to fuel that rumor of Israel killing him.

727
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 2: What the rumor was is that he had asked Israel

728
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: for a loan and Israel said no, and he said, well,

729
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm going to go tell everybody about

730
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 2: me being a spy for you. And they were like, no, not,

731
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: We're going to rub you out. That's basically what when

732
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: people say he was murdered, that's usually what they point to.

733
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there was some the initial pathologists I think

734
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: had speculated that his body was dead longer than it

735
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: was in the water, So that kind of spurred a

736
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: little bit of speculation about murder, but apparently the crew

737
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: of the Lady Glaine was like, no one was on board,

738
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: that wasn't authorized. No one could have climbed aboard that

739
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have known about. Ken Lennox was a guy

740
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: who knew him, said he like saw the corpse and

741
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:02,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't you know, it didn't have like any markings

742
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: of struggle or gunshot or throat cut or anything like that.

743
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: Right. There's also a theory that he faked his death,

744
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: which is quite possible, but he was pretty recognizable, so

745
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 2: it would have been difficult for him to start a

746
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 2: new life somewhere without you know, completely changing his face

747
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:22,560
Speaker 2: at least in his voice.

748
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's one of those things where,

749
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: like they said, well he had mentioned it before. I

750
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 1: think he was one of those guys that would just

751
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: like muse about something like that.

752
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. And if you listener were just like fake your death,

753
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear more about that. Well, we did

754
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 2: an episode on faking your death. You can go look

755
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: up too.

756
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: Oh. God, that was early on, wasn't it.

757
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,479
Speaker 2: No, that was like a year or two ago.

758
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: Oh, wasn't what am I thinking of? Then?

759
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 2: Going over Niagara Falls in a barrel.

760
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 1: Oh man, that was a long time.

761
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: There was the worst way to die. That's probably what

762
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: you're thinking of.

763
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: Oh maybe. So either way, you mentioned earlier that he

764
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 1: sort of did his wife and daughter of favor by

765
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: not leaving them the business because the business was I

766
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: think it was the largest may still be the largest

767
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: bankruptcy in Britain's history. Yeah, debts of like well over

768
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: four hundred million pounds that they were initially on the

769
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,319
Speaker 1: hook for. They were I think prosecuted for fraud as

770
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:24,240
Speaker 1: well in nineteen ninety six, but they both successfully defended

771
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: themselves and the pensioneers were eventually bailed out by public

772
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: funds apparently. Yeah, they got their money back.

773
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: They got like half, like basically fifty cents on the dollar.

774
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: So they still lost out, but at least they weren't

775
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 2: just completely screwed, which is cool the UK to swoop

776
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 2: in and do that, you know, it was that means

777
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 2: everybody in Great Britain chipped in, so those people wouldn't

778
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: just completely lose their pension. That's pretty neat.

779
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: Yeah.

780
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:56,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, before before Gallaine Maxwell came along and tarnished

781
00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 2: her family's reputation, it had already been well tarnished by

782
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 2: the time that rolled around, Like her father's death was

783
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 2: like this is like his reputation just completely went downhill?

784
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 2: How about that? Yeah, totally, Yeah, Gallaine Maxwell, that's a

785
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 2: whole other episode if you.

786
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: Ask me, oh, man, are we gonna do that one

787
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: day someday?

788
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,720
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, if you want to know more about Robert Maxwell.

789
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: In the meantime, there's all sorts of interesting articles about

790
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 2: him too. There's documentaries. The House of Maxwell I think

791
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,879
Speaker 2: was a good BBC one from a few years ago.

792
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: And since I ended this like an old school how

793
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 2: stuff works episode, it's time for listener mail.

794
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: This is about the tobacco settlements episode. Hey, guys, I

795
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:47,880
Speaker 1: wanted to provide some more info about one of the

796
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: points of confusion you had. I worked for years doing

797
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: health policy work for the Minnesota House, and this source

798
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:56,080
Speaker 1: of funds was a hot topic as we were discussing

799
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: other policies to target the rise in youth tobacco use. Josh,

800
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,640
Speaker 1: you were asked about how the settlements worked with regard

801
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: to tobacco companies paying in perpetuity while also having a

802
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: specific settlement amount. For background, Minnesota agreed to about six

803
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: point five billion in settlement funds. We were not part

804
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 1: of the Master settlement. It's actually pretty simple. That six

805
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: point five billion dollar number was an estimate of the

806
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: settlement's value at the time of the settlement, not a

807
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: cap on how much companies would pay.

808
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 2: Oh cool.

809
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: So Minnesota received a series of one time payments targeted

810
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 1: at specific tobacco cestation in public health uses, but we

811
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: also receive an annual payment each year that can be

812
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: used for basically whatever the state wants. These annual payments

813
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: are the ongoing payments that are based on a formula

814
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 1: around tobacco sales and profitability that you touched on in

815
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,839
Speaker 1: the episode. In Minnesota, these annual payments are about one

816
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty million dollars each year, and when counting

817
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: everything the state has gotten from the tobacco company so far,

818
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: we've received something like five point seven billions so far.

819
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: Hope it provides some clarity. And that is from Jeremiah

820
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 1: wingstet Man.

821
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: That's so awesome. I love hearing from pepeople who are there.

822
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, and who actually know the stuff. Yeah,

823
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: and we can always count on that all.

824
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so cool. And also big ups to Minnesota

825
00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 2: because they were the ones who, as part of the settlement,

826
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,240
Speaker 2: required the tobacco companies to make their documents public.

827
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 1: That's right.

828
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Jeremiah. If you were there, no matter

829
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 2: what we were talking about, we want to hear from you.

830
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 2: And even if you weren't, that's fine too. We always

831
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 2: like to hear a hello from our listeners. You can

832
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 2: send us an email, wrap it up, spank it on

833
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 2: the bottom, and send it off to Stuff podcast at

834
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com.

835
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

836
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,799
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

837
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:45,720
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.