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Speaker 1: On February nineteen two, there was a mass shooting in Portland, Oregon.

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Speaker 1: Right wing extremist opened fire at people doing traffic support

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Speaker 1: for a weekly racial justice march. He killed one person,

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Speaker 1: he injured several others. One of the people who was injured,

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Speaker 1: a young woman, is currently paralyzed from the neck down.

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Speaker 1: Her friends and family are raising money, um, not for

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Speaker 1: immediate survival, stuff for for quality of life things, for

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Speaker 1: things to you know, allow her to enjoy herself out

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Speaker 1: in the world with people, given the fact that she's

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Speaker 1: dealt with something and is dealing with something, uh, permanently

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Speaker 1: life changing. So I wanted to highlight that they're already

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Speaker 1: above their initial goal. But obviously, you know, any anything

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Speaker 1: we can give will help her and her family have

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Speaker 1: a higher quality of life, and I think they deserve it.

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Speaker 1: So go to go fund me Portland mass shooting Paralyzed

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Speaker 1: Survivor Fund. That's go fund me Portland mass shooting Paralyzed

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Speaker 1: Survivor fund. If you've got some extra cash, you know,

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Speaker 1: the season being what it is, I get that everybody's

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Speaker 1: got a lot of expenses coming up. But if a

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Speaker 1: few folks have some extra bucks, I know it'll be appreciated.

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Speaker 1: It will help her have a warmer season this year,

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Speaker 1: and she certainly deserves it. So again, go fund me

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Speaker 1: Portland mass shooting paralyzed survivor fund Thank you. Oh God

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Speaker 1: is dead and you, Jamie Loftus, have killed him. I

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Speaker 1: did it, I did it, you did it. You did it.

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Speaker 1: No God was a hymn and Jamie killed him, hammered

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Speaker 1: at the back of the head. And and people are

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Speaker 1: going to be critical of that, but you know, you

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Speaker 1: don't know my story. And in my six part mini

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Speaker 1: series in which I'm played by Amanda Sea Freed, You're

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Speaker 1: going to start to see my side of the story.

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Speaker 1: And she is definitely not going to jail for what

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Speaker 1: I did. That's good. Unlike Founder of Their Enough Elizabeth Holmes,

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Speaker 1: who we just found out has been sentenced to eleven

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Speaker 1: point to five years in in prison. I'm kind of like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I have mixed I have mixed feelings because it's like

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Speaker 1: people don't go First of all, the prison industrial complex

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Speaker 1: in general, it doesn't make anyone better to the extent

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Speaker 1: that there's value in the present day, and putting people

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Speaker 1: in prison, it's people who are like a severe ongoing danger.

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Speaker 1: And I don't see this making anything better. Like at

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Speaker 1: the same time, I hate her, so I don't. I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna it's not it's not going to be the

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Speaker 1: top injustice I write route today. I do kind of

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Speaker 1: like that HERU after being exposed as an unrepentant criminal,

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Speaker 1: She's like, Oh, I think I'm just going to kind

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Speaker 1: of be like a norm e girl for a while

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna gon gomal kid. And You're like, Liz,

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Speaker 1: it's too late. It's too late for that. Liz. You

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Speaker 1: defrauded people with a fake medical device that led folks

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Speaker 1: to to get treatment for things they didn't have and

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Speaker 1: ignore all this as they did, which is bad. That

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Speaker 1: before too many bodies at the floor, but that would

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Speaker 1: have stopped you, but you didn't really care. You applied

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Speaker 1: Steve Jobs logic to something that was not just a

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Speaker 1: silly box to keep in your pocket. Lizzie, you know, Lizzie, uh,

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Speaker 1: Lizzie again. Also putting her in prison for you know,

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Speaker 1: probably nine years, when you consider all the other things,

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Speaker 1: is like not gonna help anything. It'll just mean that

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Speaker 1: that kid she has grows up without a mom for

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Speaker 1: nine years, and that's not going to make that It's

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Speaker 1: like it's a huge moment for many things can be

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Speaker 1: true at once and having to hold all of those

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Speaker 1: truths and um, still recording episode of Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: I can tell you about this. Actually, this actually will

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Speaker 1: be relevant to the episode. But yes, please please really yes, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is definitely not going to be relevant. So let's

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Speaker 1: let's okay. I was a legal case I was thinking

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Speaker 1: about today. Um was the beanie baby is billionaire. Um.

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Speaker 1: When he went was taken the court in for holding

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Speaker 1: money in a Swiss bank account. Um. He it was

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Speaker 1: like a tax a tasion, tax evasion charge. Um. So

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Speaker 1: he was up for as many as five years in

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Speaker 1: prison for tax evasion, and he got off with I mean,

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Speaker 1: he's a billionaire, he's never going to suffer a consequence, right,

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Speaker 1: But like, he ended up getting a two years of

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Speaker 1: probation on the ground that it had been too publicly

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Speaker 1: humiliating so he didn't have to get to go to

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Speaker 1: jail because he was too and so farnest. It was

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Speaker 1: so embarrassing that he didn't have to go to jail.

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Speaker 1: What that's absolutely fucking weird. Anyways, I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: see how far this goes by committing murder and then

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Speaker 1: having my pants fall down and like, well, Judge, look,

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Speaker 1: yes I did stab that man seven times underpants. Yeah

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Speaker 1: pp myself so feel like that. Yeah we can we

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Speaker 1: just zero this one out. Man. I love the Beanie

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Speaker 1: Baby's story so much. I'm surrounded by my beans feeling safe. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's good. You do literally have one on your shoulder

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, just just like I have this rifle

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Speaker 1: next to me. I think that we both have our

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Speaker 1: comfort objects at the ready. Um so, Jamie, speaking of

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes, because the person we're talking about today is

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Speaker 1: going to be the next story like that. By this

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Speaker 1: time next year, they're probably is going to be an

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Speaker 1: HBO documentary about this guy. God, maybe Taylor Taylor Kitch

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Speaker 1: could probably play him. Um, actually, if he wanted to. Really,

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Speaker 1: Taylor Kitch played hot David Koresh in The Waco Show,

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Speaker 1: walked into that. Yeah, they'd have to give him like

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Speaker 1: a belly suit or something. That's not anti fantom, just

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Speaker 1: being accurate, but he could do it. Maybe that is

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Speaker 1: I don't want to see this man ever again. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm mad. You don't want to see Taylor kitchigain you

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Speaker 1: don't want to see those cum gutters again. Unbelievable, goddamnit.

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Speaker 1: Plenty in this town, Robert, there's a million cum gutters.

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Speaker 1: I don't need those. Oh that that is true. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: so through the street that that that is that is

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Speaker 1: true of Los Angeles and no other city. Today we

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Speaker 1: are talking about a guy who absolutely never comes Sam

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Speaker 1: Bankman Freed. Why do you know this guy? Do you

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Speaker 1: know this guy? I don't know this guy. You don't

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Speaker 1: know this guy. You don't know this guy? Have you?

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Speaker 1: Have you caught any news in the last week about

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Speaker 1: how like a massive cryptocurrency exchange has collapsed Plummett? This

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Speaker 1: is that guy. Oh, this is the guy with his

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Speaker 1: like polyamorous sex ring that was running a big crypto

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Speaker 1: bank in the Bahamas and it all fell apart. Now

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Speaker 1: billions of dollars are gone. You've lost me again. Oh great, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: well I'll right. This is still breaking. Um we are

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Speaker 1: because this is a Thanksgiving week episode. We only do

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Speaker 1: one episode on Thanksgivings. I needed a single one, so

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Speaker 1: I just want to give everyone background on this guy.

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Speaker 1: We will we may come back to this story because

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Speaker 1: there's a lot we don't fully understand about how he

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Speaker 1: did what he did and the degree to which. But

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Speaker 1: is that this guy, this guy ran a trading service

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Speaker 1: called Alameda Research and a crypto exchange, and exchange is

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Speaker 1: basically like a bank, right, It's a cross between a

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Speaker 1: bank and like a trading platform called f t X,

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Speaker 1: which was one of the largest cryptocurrency exchanges in the world,

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Speaker 1: and was also considered by most people to be the

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Speaker 1: most stable and like ethical and legitimate, right, people who

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Speaker 1: are just kind of on the outside looking at when

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Speaker 1: everything collapsed earlier this year, Right, you remember that we

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Speaker 1: have that I was engaged in that. It's just that

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Speaker 1: I get a lot of my news journalists on Twitter

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Speaker 1: and they've been busy this week. Yes, So when when

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Speaker 1: the when the when crypto like fell apart? When a

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Speaker 1: lot of crypto fell apart earlier this year, and like

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Speaker 1: a bunch of places went under. F t X was

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Speaker 1: one of the ones that stayed stable. And actually we're

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Speaker 1: buying up a bunch of like failing crypto companies to

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Speaker 1: try to like prop up the industry. They just collapsed

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Speaker 1: and like the value of all everything has been plummeting

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Speaker 1: for for the last several days. It's a big disaster.

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Speaker 1: It is very like yeah, in in and as in

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Speaker 1: words that will annoy me as little as possible. Can

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Speaker 1: you explain why fts remained solvent and others? It is

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Speaker 1: not so why did it outlast? Because they lied? Um,

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Speaker 1: so they were they were operating the short end of

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Speaker 1: how to describe it, And we may there will be

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Speaker 1: more details to come, but at present it seems fair

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Speaker 1: to say that it was a giant Ponzi scheme where

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Speaker 1: they were they were they were taking in money, promising

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Speaker 1: unreasonable returns, using other investor money to gamble on stuff

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Speaker 1: to try to provide anyway. And it was like all

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Speaker 1: the other guys they were, they were dishonest. Yeah, it is.

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Speaker 1: It is very likely. What what what differentiates this is

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Speaker 1: the scale because this is very likely a financial crime

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Speaker 1: on the level of what Bernie made off did. We

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Speaker 1: are talking in the ten to twenty billion dollars stolen

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Speaker 1: a lot of money. This is a serious financial crime.

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Speaker 1: I'm in on this pretty cold. And so for the

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Speaker 1: other the other kind of mass of um like touchstone

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Speaker 1: of this is that it has led to a class

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Speaker 1: action lawsuit against Larry David, Shaquille O'Neal, Tom Brady and

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Speaker 1: a number of celebrities who were all in a Super

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Speaker 1: Bowl ad for f t X. I remember that ad

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Speaker 1: that was so embarrassing for my man Larry. The lawsuit

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Speaker 1: is basically advertise. Basic was the high dollar Ponzi scheme,

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Speaker 1: and you guys were using your name recognition to sell

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Speaker 1: unregistered securities, which they were, which they were, which they

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Speaker 1: definitely were. Sorry, I just want to circle back to Shaquille.

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Speaker 1: Shaquille O'Neil will put his name on anything, to the

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Speaker 1: point where to the point where I worked at a

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Speaker 1: Haunted hay Ride this year, which we don't talk about

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Speaker 1: because it was a bad idea, but the rival what idea?

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Speaker 1: I guess what. I'm alive, bitch, bitch, I lived, I

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Speaker 1: lived to tell the tale. It's very unclear who is

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Speaker 1: right in the side of should I work at a

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Speaker 1: Haunted hay Ride or not? I still haven't really landed

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Speaker 1: on a name answer point being. Our closest rival Haunted

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Speaker 1: Hayride wise was sh Octoberfest. It was Shack themed haunted

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Speaker 1: attraction in which the only Shack related thing was a

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Speaker 1: gigantic inflatable Frankenstein that looked like Shack, which did sound awesome.

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Speaker 1: That sounds actually like the best time anyone's ever had

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Speaker 1: Shack put his name on an anything, including crypto and Halloween.

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Speaker 1: What a what a King? Um? Probably not. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: there's horrible things about Shack that have come out that

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Speaker 1: seems almost unavoidable. Anyway, Sam Bankman Freed is the guy

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Speaker 1: behind this gigantic financial crime that is still unraveling as

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Speaker 1: we do this episode. And I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: less about what happened on the exchange, because none of

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Speaker 1: us want to talk about how somebody carries out the

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Speaker 1: nuts and bolts of a cryptocurrency scam. But I want

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Speaker 1: to talk about I want to talk about the social

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Speaker 1: elements of the scam. I want to talk about how

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Speaker 1: he conned the media, how he conned celebrities, and how

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Speaker 1: he conned regulators UM. And I just want to talk

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Speaker 1: about also the way some of these people talked and

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Speaker 1: wrote about him, because there's a lot about I don't know.

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Speaker 1: A week or so ago, we did an episode on

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Speaker 1: The Daily Show we do what could happen here about

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Speaker 1: ethical altruism, which is in brief theory that like the

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Speaker 1: instead of trying to help people just because they need help,

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Speaker 1: you should only help people after you consider the way

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Speaker 1: to help people that is like the absolute most beneficial

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Speaker 1: way for like the least amount of you know, effort.

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Speaker 1: The it's utilitarianism, right, what can I How can I

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Speaker 1: do the greatest good with the least resources? And yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's the way a lot of these like

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Speaker 1: and it's merged with this kind of thinking towards what

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Speaker 1: billionaire types called long termism. And the gist of this

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Speaker 1: is like, it's not worthwhile for me to do stuff

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Speaker 1: like pay taxes to have a society or guarantee like

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Speaker 1: universal health care. Instead, I should make Instead, the most

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Speaker 1: ethical thing that I should do is make as much

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Speaker 1: money as I personally can and then put that money

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Speaker 1: into things that I believe will save the world, like

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Speaker 1: research to stop aies from killing everyone and getting to

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Speaker 1: Mars and ship It's a way for billionaires, trains, It's

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Speaker 1: a way for billionaires and the other mega rich to

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Speaker 1: justify like continuing to do exactly what they want and

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Speaker 1: feel like they're saving in the world anyway, Sam, you

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Speaker 1: guy from Beanie you know the beanie babies billionaire did

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Speaker 1: to improve the world may a lot of beanie babies,

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Speaker 1: and then he bought the four seasons hotel and kept

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Speaker 1: making beanie babies. He didn't do ship. That's well, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's I'm fine with that compared to these guys because

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Speaker 1: they're where they're pretending anyway. Bank Sam Bankman Freed is

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Speaker 1: one of these guys. We're gonna get into that. But

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Speaker 1: we did this episode on It could Happen Here where

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Speaker 1: he was kind of a tangentle character in this very

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Speaker 1: unsettling and insidious movement that is behind guys like Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk who are claiming to be saving the world will

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Speaker 1: just sucking over people. And then like four days after

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Speaker 1: it came out, his entire life unraveled and his fortune

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Speaker 1: disappeared overnight because he was a giant con artist. What

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Speaker 1: a treat. It's very funny. So that's why we're talking

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Speaker 1: about him right now. He's like thirty years old and

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Speaker 1: looks like Mark Zuckerberg and David Dobrick's love child. He's

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Speaker 1: thirty years old, was a Mark Zuckerberg and David dobricks

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Speaker 1: love child. Look. I shouldn't call anyone a schlub, but

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Speaker 1: he looks like a schlub. I forget what David Dobrick

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Speaker 1: looked like because my brain protects myself respectfully. Two villains,

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Speaker 1: two villains, love child. Yeah. Um anyway, so I uh yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sam Bankmnfried was born in nineteen ninety two on the

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Speaker 1: campus of Stanford University, uh, continuing a long and proud

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Speaker 1: tradition of absolutely nothing good ever coming from that hellhole.

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Speaker 1: His parents are both extremely prominent Stanford professors. His mother, Barbara,

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Speaker 1: is a lawyer her clothes who clerked for the Second

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Speaker 1: Circuit Court and graduated from Harvard. She founded Mind the Gap,

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Speaker 1: a somewhat shady and mysterious democratic fundraising group. I think

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Speaker 1: it's shady and that people don't exactly know where all

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Speaker 1: the money comes from or like what their goals are.

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Speaker 1: She also yeah yeah. She also pinned an essay in

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Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen that the right wing is going nuts

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Speaker 1: about because she was basically arguing that like it's good

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Speaker 1: and evil are less a factor in in what people

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Speaker 1: do than environmental factors and and and all that stuff,

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Speaker 1: Like when people do things that are bad, it's more

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Speaker 1: and a product of their And it was kind of

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Speaker 1: am oh god, what's that fucking psychologist. It was like

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Speaker 1: a Skinner type argument where it's like, well, if people

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Speaker 1: have bad inputs in their youth and that's going to

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Speaker 1: determine anyway. Um, I think that's funny given what happens. Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna guess she sucks at what she's she's she sucks. Uh,

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Speaker 1: And so does his dad, Joseph Bankman. Joseph is also

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Speaker 1: a lawyer. He is a graduate from Yale. His big

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Speaker 1: claim to fame was developing a proposal for an overhaul

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Speaker 1: of the California tax return system that would have filled

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Speaker 1: out citizens tax returns in advance. And I don't know,

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Speaker 1: I just said he sucked, But actually that sounds like

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Speaker 1: a good thing. Um, I think that that's actually a

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Speaker 1: cool thing to advocate for. The measure failed by one

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Speaker 1: vote after heavy lobbying from into It, a tax prep

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Speaker 1: prep software company. Um yeah, it kind of is. It's

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Speaker 1: it's total bullshit because stuff, it's the thing everybody agrees

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Speaker 1: with on paper, but nobody will actually fight the tax

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Speaker 1: prep companies, which is like, Hey, the I r S

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Speaker 1: like knows more or less what I'm ache and like

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Speaker 1: knows more or less what I owe. Why don't I

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Speaker 1: just get a thing from them? Why do I have

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Speaker 1: to go through this? Like anyway, there's no need but

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Speaker 1: it's like that's the other countries do it that way.

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Speaker 1: We don't, though, because there has to be a convoluted

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Speaker 1: system that's expensive and where they can charge you if

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Speaker 1: you make the tiniest mistake because you can't read size

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Speaker 1: one font well. And more to the point, because I

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Speaker 1: don't actually think the I R. S. Is advocating to

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Speaker 1: keep it a pain in the ass. I think it's

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Speaker 1: these tax prep companies because they have an entire industry

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Speaker 1: based on charging people to do the thing that they

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Speaker 1: have to do to avoid going to fucking prison. Um. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: I said he's an asshole, and I'm sure he is,

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Speaker 1: but he was right about this, and I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to say about that. Like all of us. Joseph

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Speaker 1: is also a podcaster. He is the host of the

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Speaker 1: co host of the Stanford Legal podcast too, and he's

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Speaker 1: a nerd. If it wasn't the holiday season and I

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Speaker 1: wasn't like getting ready for friends and family and all

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Speaker 1: that that good stuff, I would have listened to his

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Speaker 1: podcast and we would probably be making fun of him.

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Speaker 1: But you can do that on your own goodness, I believe,

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Speaker 1: isn't it doesn't it feel so horrible when you think

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Speaker 1: of how many people do what we do, but they're

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Speaker 1: the worst person you've ever heard of. It's so sad,

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Speaker 1: it's embarrassing. Yeah, it's it's like, I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: avoid self identifying as a podcaster as it is, it's

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Speaker 1: still not a stem. But then on top of that,

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, like what, like I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you know, the only you know, the only thing that

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Speaker 1: I can compare it to is like when I started

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Speaker 1: making a living as a writer fifteen years ago, and

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Speaker 1: I would say that at like a at like a

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Speaker 1: party or something, someone asked like, well, what do you

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Speaker 1: do And I'm like, well, I'm a writer, and like

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Speaker 1: four other people would say yeah, me too. Uh and

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Speaker 1: then you wind up listening to everybody's pitches for their

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Speaker 1: novels that they're never going to finish. Um. So eventually

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Speaker 1: I just started lying and saying that I still worked

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Speaker 1: a special at well. I like, I mean, it's the

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Speaker 1: same thing with like if you say you're a comedian

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Speaker 1: in a party, you're god no, never never identify as

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Speaker 1: a comedian And oh me too, do you? And I've

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Speaker 1: done one whole open mic and Mike was very offensive

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Speaker 1: and he's had a comedian's job to push boundaries and oh,

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Speaker 1: tell me your job, you know how Lenny Bruce, Let

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Speaker 1: read that. Let read that list of curse words. Will

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Speaker 1: I just do that with slurs here? Let me show you. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're like yeah, like slame. Bruce was not funny in

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Speaker 1: that period of his career, even a little. Anyways, Anyways,

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Speaker 1: our job, I mean, are embarrassing what I'm saying. Anyway,

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Speaker 1: our jobs are indeed embarrassing. So, as you might guess

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Speaker 1: from all of that, Sam was born into what amounts

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Speaker 1: to America's like liberal aristocracy. He is a fucking coastal elite, right.

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Speaker 1: This kid grows up on the Stanford campus to Stanford professors.

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Speaker 1: One of his aunt's teaches at Columbia University is like

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Speaker 1: a professor there. So seems like he has close family

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Speaker 1: connections to employees at Yale and at Harvard UH as

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Speaker 1: well as Stanford, like his parents both go to Harvard.

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Speaker 1: I think it is Kennedy. He is a Yeah, he's

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Speaker 1: he's that. He is as you do not get much

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Speaker 1: more of a rarefied like intellectual air. He's wearing Linen's around.

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Speaker 1: This is how I think about this. This is a

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Speaker 1: child who at age eight, has strong opinions on a

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Speaker 1: manual kant Um, which will cheer for him at the table. No, No,

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Speaker 1: we're about to get into that, Jamie loves. I just

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Speaker 1: had I just had a vision of a child sitting

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Speaker 1: at like a holiday dinner and saying derivative and then amazing, Wow,

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Speaker 1: he is really coming along, isn't he. Yeah, this is

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Speaker 1: a little kid that, when he likes sits down at

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Speaker 1: the doctor's office, pulls out a fucking I don't know,

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Speaker 1: doritta or something book just just just so you know,

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Speaker 1: just so you know, he knows fancy philosophers. God damn

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Speaker 1: it board book. So his parents and his raised him

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Speaker 1: in his brother to be utilitarians. Uh one of the

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Speaker 1: articles about them into SpongeBob. Okay, yeah, yeah, I was.

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Speaker 1: I was raised to hassle cows in our back forty Um.

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Speaker 1: His parents nights. So this article notes that nights around

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Speaker 1: the family dinner table often focused around debates about how

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Speaker 1: to do the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Um.

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Speaker 1: In later interviews with I'm gonna get to this guy

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Speaker 1: in a second, the absolute dick writing this journalist to

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Speaker 1: ever write, Dick Sam would claim that his most formative

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Speaker 1: moment came at age twelve, when he was weighing arguments

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Speaker 1: around the abortion debate. So, first off, because because not

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Speaker 1: only no, also like in the context of like where

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Speaker 1: would he have been doing this? I'm guessing at like

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Speaker 1: around the family table or when they have the all.

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Speaker 1: You know, everybody's got their brandy and he's drinking in

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Speaker 1: some sort a fucking t that's insufferable, and they're all

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Speaker 1: talking about people's rights as if it's like a fun

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Speaker 1: intellectual problem, like how to fix it for them? It

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Speaker 1: is because whenever, wherever they land, the rules aren't going

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Speaker 1: to apply to them anyways. Yes, yes, where does he?

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Speaker 1: Where does he fall? Where does That's a great question.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to quote now from an article previously

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Speaker 1: published by Sequoia Capital and written by Adam Fisher, who

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Speaker 1: should never be allowed to lift this article down. When

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Speaker 1: I say the dick writing ist like fucking pr flak journal,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's shameful quote right. A rights based theorist

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Speaker 1: might argue that there aren't really any discontinuous differences, as

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Speaker 1: a fetus becomes a child, and thus fetus murder is

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Speaker 1: essentially child murder. The utilitarian argument compares the consequences of each.

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Speaker 1: The loss of an actual child's life, a life in

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Speaker 1: which a great deal of parental and societal resources have

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Speaker 1: been invested, is much more consequential than the loss of

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Speaker 1: a potential life in utero, and thus to a utilitarian

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Speaker 1: abortion looks more like birth control than murder. SPF. That's

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Speaker 1: what they always call him, the kid Sam spfs application

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00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,359
Speaker 1: of utilitarianism helped him resolve some nagging doubts he had

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Speaker 1: about the ethics of abortion. It made him feel comfortable

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Speaker 1: being pro choice, as his friends, family, and peers were.

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Speaker 1: He saw the essential rightness of his philosophical faith. So

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Speaker 1: that's very fucked up. That is, that is so deep,

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Speaker 1: Like the term choice is used at the very ind there,

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Speaker 1: but it's clear that like he's not thinking about this

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Speaker 1: in terms of like the actual value of human bodily autonomy.

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Speaker 1: That does not weigh in the utilitarian calculus for him whatsoever. No,

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Speaker 1: that is, to would argue my friend Robert, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: And again, even like, look, I ship reflexively sometimes on utilitarianism,

402
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:49,399
Speaker 1: not because of the inherent value or disvalue of thinking

403
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Speaker 1: that way, but about the way it gets talked about

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Speaker 1: by these people. But like, if you're actually a utilitarian

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Speaker 1: and you care about the greatest good for the greatest

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Speaker 1: number of people, then bodily autonomy should factor into at right,

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00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 1: like human bodily autonomy is he should be hugely important

408
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: to you. But no, that's not logical. All that matters

409
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 1: is like, well how many If you've if less resources

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Speaker 1: than this have been invested in the fetus, then it's

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Speaker 1: not a person. So abortion makes that's fucking bullshit logic.

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Speaker 1: Fuck you, you're doing too much math. Stop, this isn't

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Speaker 1: This isn't a math problem, Sam, Like, this is not

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Speaker 1: a fucking math problem. Not everything is goddamn math problem. Robert,

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Speaker 1: he won't listen to unless you call him SBF, and

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Speaker 1: I was like, sunscreen, Yeah, we'll get that. They all

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00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: call him fucking SBF, and I hate it. But also

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Speaker 1: as this went on, I started using it more and

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Speaker 1: more because it's a pain in the astotype his whole

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Speaker 1: fucking last name out. Um. I look, I this is

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Speaker 1: one where I'm not going to give him a pass.

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Speaker 1: But I get it. If you write about this sucker

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Speaker 1: a lot, it does make it easier. So anyway, all

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00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 1: of this is very bad. Um, but you know what's

425
00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: not bad, Jamie, the products and sir this to support

426
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: this podcast. That's not true. They are that's well, I've checked.

427
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: Hold on, I just ran a quick check on that,

428
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: and you can. But but what about the greatest good

429
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: for the greatest number of people? And and given that

430
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,439
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a people, so it works out pretty well,

431
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:20,840
Speaker 1: it works out very well for me. I think that

432
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,639
Speaker 1: if you actually have more advertising revenue, you will actually

433
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: built a really fast train like you've been promising me

434
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 1: you would. Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna build the hyper loop.

435
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna promise you one thing.

436
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: It's going to kill a hell of a lot more

437
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: people than that Simpsons monorail did and that and and

438
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: I'm gonna and and look, not everyone is going to

439
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: hold you to task for that, but I am thank you, Jamie,

440
00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: thank you for keeping me honest and ensuring that we

441
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 1: we we really make a memorable disaster. Look, I'm available anytime.

442
00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: I'm not visiting my friend Liz in jail. M uh

443
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 1: we are back. What a good time. So Sam bankman

444
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: Fried is above all else a numbers guy, and I

445
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: guess as a kid he was a numbers kid. His

446
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 1: parents sent him to Crystal Springs Uplands, a fancy prep

447
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: school in Hillsborough, California. I looked through the website because

448
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: I wanted to make fun of it, but it just

449
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: kind of seems like a really fancy school. I don't know.

450
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's a great place to get an education.

451
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 1: They make, they put a lot of I will tell this.

452
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: They devote a lot of screen resources to letting you

453
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: know that they are not racist and that most of

454
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: their students aren't white. Um. They also have a friend.

455
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,200
Speaker 1: They also have a French cinema class for sixth graders,

456
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: which is fine, But the cranky asshole in me that

457
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,639
Speaker 1: still has a little piece of my soul raised by

458
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: right wing radio wants to say shit about it. I

459
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: was raised by by left wing people, and I still

460
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,400
Speaker 1: think that that's some loser shit, and I think that

461
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 1: that's fucking dorky and goofy and like should it's like

462
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: what you know you meet because you meet people like

463
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: that in the wild, and they're sometimes there and maybe

464
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:12,280
Speaker 1: even often very sweet people. But I'm like trying to

465
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know who Plankton is, and they're

466
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: like no, and then but they've been watching French movies

467
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: since they were like seven, and I just don't expect

468
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: that if I made a sixth if I meet a

469
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: sixth grader with strong opinions about French cinema, like I'm

470
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 1: just gonna leave. I'm gonna leave. I'm just gonna walk away, Robert,

471
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 1: that's really brave of you to march out of a

472
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: conversation with an eleven year old like I am not.

473
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm not putting up with that ship. Absolutely not. I'm

474
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: leaving this sixth grade class. My name is Robert Evans,

475
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: and out here do fi is? Go watch your Renoir?

476
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: Is that one of them? That sounds like one of them?

477
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 1: Cloud Renoir? Is he a painter? Or Renoir is a painter?

478
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: I know the one you're looking for it, and I

479
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 1: was looking for it too, but I don't remember. But

480
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: guess who do you know who Plankton is? Of I

481
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: know who Plankton is, And I also know that at

482
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 1: least one of the directors they study as a pedophile.

483
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 1: Just knowing a little bit about French cinema, that's that's unavoidable.

484
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: So he does well. Again, the school is probably fine.

485
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: He does well. At the school. UM, he was notably insular.

486
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: He avoided most of his classmates to play StarCraft, which

487
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: is good, and League of Legends, which objectively sucks. He

488
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: also played a lot of magic the Gathering. So I

489
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: am confident he did not get late in high school. Um,

490
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 1: this is based on extensive personal experience. Like I just

491
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: actually did some field research and about four years of it. Okay. Interesting.

492
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,040
Speaker 1: For college, he was accepted to and attended My Tea,

493
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 1: which marked out his family's elite North American University punch guard. Um,

494
00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: they really hit him all now now that they've got

495
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,399
Speaker 1: it in my kid in the family, they get a

496
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,040
Speaker 1: free coffee. There used to be an m I T.

497
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,239
Speaker 1: So when I was doing comedy in Boston, there was

498
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: like m I m I T had like a secret

499
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 1: comedy club that was just for M I T students

500
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:18,639
Speaker 1: And it was awful. That's oh god, Yeah, they paid you, okay,

501
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: But it was like they're like, if you like knew

502
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: someone who like met someone who went to M I

503
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: T and they came to your shows, and they're like,

504
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: oh we we've we did the math and you are

505
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: allowed to come to our They called it their speak

506
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 1: easy I wonder if it's still around. It was so

507
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: it was. I mean it's not fun. Yea not a

508
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: fun crowd, I will say. But best of luck to

509
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: to whatever was going on there. So he goes to

510
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 1: m He goes to he might have been at one

511
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: of those shows where he might have because he joins

512
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: a fraternity there. Uh and and M I T. Well, Jamie,

513
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,959
Speaker 1: it's a an M I T specific co ed nerd fraternity.

514
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: So night it's theta Um. And here's how Adam Fisher,

515
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: the guy I hate, described them in his article, which

516
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: was bad quote. A co ed fraternity of super geeks

517
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: similarly interested in magic and video games. Theten's are fond

518
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: of debating math, physics, computer science, linguistics, philosophy, and logic

519
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 1: problems for fun at alcohol free parties. Now I do

520
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: know a little bit about M I T. And I

521
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: know another thing these nerds often do is kill themselves

522
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: using nitrous oxide, because they will try to flood entire

523
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: rooms with nitrous to do like nitrous to ratio and

524
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: kill themselves. It's a thing that happens. Look it up

525
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 1: in M T. Nitrous des Yeah. I all I did

526
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: in college was drink too many blue moons. It's uh,

527
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 1: it's it's quite a thing. Um. So I don't know

528
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: doing over there, I don't know, I don't know, I

529
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know how much I believe that

530
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: that they were always alcohol and drug free parties, because

531
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: if there's one thing I know from ner, it's that

532
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: they do a shipload of drugs. I definitely didn't hear

533
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: of this one because I went to a couple of

534
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: m I T frat parties and they were, um, not sober.

535
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,760
Speaker 1: Fun fact one the one of the m I T

536
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: frat parties I went to some for some reason when

537
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: I was in college, and I would get really drunk.

538
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: I would always I would like, I would I like

539
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: to like steal things from wherever I was. And so

540
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 1: I stole two critical pool balls from an m I

541
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: T frat house and someone was able to trace it

542
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 1: back to me and they demanded their pool balls back. Um,

543
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: and I embarrassingly, I think I capitulated. I think I

544
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,479
Speaker 1: did give them back. I shouldn't. Wow. Wow. Actually, so

545
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: this one kid I'm finding and died because he put

546
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: a bag over his head to in hale Nitris, which

547
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 1: is the funk man. How did you get into in

548
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: M I T. I don't know any I was like

549
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: this guy, I don't know, don't put bags. Don't put

550
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: bags over your head kids. Um, yeah, I learned that

551
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 1: in public school. No less, so many there ways to

552
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 1: do whippets than putting a plastic bag over your head anyway, whatever.

553
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 1: According next, according to the popular Sam Bankman Freed endorsed

554
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: version of the story, he pivoted towards an almost obsessive

555
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: devotion to ethics. In his freshman year, he went vegan,

556
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 1: he organized a protest against factory farming, and he worried

557
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 1: obsessively over how he could change the world for the better.

558
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 1: And it was at this point that Sam met a

559
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: man who was going to change his life forever. William mcgaskell. UM.

560
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: If you want to learn more about this guy, I

561
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: do recommend the episode of it could happen here on

562
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: Effective Altruism. UM. This guy is today the most the

563
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: pop philosopher of effective altruism and long term is UM.

564
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: He is an elon Musk's text messages that we all

565
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: got as a result of the Twitter lawsuit. UM. At

566
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 1: this point he was also at M I T, and

567
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: he met with Sam at a cafe in Cambridge, Massachusetts

568
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: where mccast which one, which one? Which I don't know.

569
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's out there somewhere, Jamie. Um it's I'm

570
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: sure you've gotten a hot dog there. Um, that's that

571
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: seems likely now, any place this guy's going it doesn't

572
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 1: have hot talk. They're not ethical. They're famously unethical, So

573
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: you're probably right. So mccaskell explained the concept of effective

574
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: altruism to him, which is again this idea that like

575
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: what matters is you should like think kind of coldly

576
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 1: and robotically about how you do help to make sure

577
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: that your charity money does the most that it can do.

578
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 1: But one of the big like arguments about it is

579
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: that like, okay, well, what if you, you know, should

580
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: you save a drowning child instead of saving like three

581
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: kids from a burning building. And it's like, that's a

582
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,479
Speaker 1: nonsense choice. Nobody's ever been presented with that choice at

583
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: any point in the history of the human race. It

584
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,479
Speaker 1: is not a reasonable that is not a there's no

585
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: point to that ethical argument. You're not smart, just draft driver. Yeah,

586
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: it makes no sense. Yeah, it makes no fucking sense.

587
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: There's like bits of it that are reasonable, which is

588
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: that like, well, you know, it makes sense to like

589
00:32:56,160 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: look at the best thing you can do financially, you know,

590
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: in terms of donating money, is you know, malaria prevention,

591
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: because it winds up being the most cost effective thing.

592
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: But it's like, okay, does that mean we shouldn't put

593
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: money into making the water in Flint, Michigan drinkable? And

594
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: a lot of these guys will say no, because that's

595
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 1: not the best use of money. And it's like, well,

596
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 1: we could do many things with money, especially if we

597
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 1: tax billionaires and put it towards rebuilding infrastructure. Um number

598
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: a number of things can be done anyway, McCaskill. McCaskill

599
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: kind of pills this guy on effective altruism. He frames

600
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 1: it as a strategic investment whose success um was measured

601
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: in populations worth of human lives. He estimated, using back

602
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 1: of the envelope math that two thous dollars could save

603
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: one life, and so a million dollars could save five

604
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: hundred people, a billion could save half a million, and

605
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: a trillion dollars could theoretically save half a billion lives.

606
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: Based on that totally legitimate math, people are math it

607
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: all works out that way based based on that absolutely

608
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 1: real math. The only ethical way for a genius like

609
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: Sam to use his time and talents is to become

610
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 1: the world's first trillionaire. And I'm gonna quote again from

611
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: that article that I know. SPF listened nodding as MS

612
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:14,239
Speaker 1: Castell made his pitch. The urn to give logic was

613
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,080
Speaker 1: air tight. It was SPF realized applied utilitarianism. Knowing what

614
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: he had to do, SPF simply said, yep, that makes sense.

615
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: But right there, between a bright yellow sunshade and the

616
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:29,240
Speaker 1: crumb strewn red brick floor, SPF's purpose in life was set.

617
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 1: He was going to get filthy rich for charity's sake.

618
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 1: All the rest was merely execution risk. His course established,

619
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 1: McCaskill gave SPF one less navigational nudge to set him

620
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: on his way, suggesting that SPF get an internship at

621
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 1: Jane Street that summer, and so for the good of man,

622
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: from the good of mankind, get in the finance industry

623
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: and gamble like a mother final asshole. I god fucking

624
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: hate these people so much. What makes sense? Yeah, you know, look,

625
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: I think that I can't debate that lot. There's no

626
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 1: argument to be made about that logic. Jamie. I mean,

627
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,200
Speaker 1: I know that this is the wrong person to be

628
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: turning on in this moment, but this is the dick

629
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: writing is like, this is the Jamie's like, he has

630
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: not begun to ride dick. This is this is this

631
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: man's got no gag reflection down, Jamie. I'm going to

632
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 1: read you some passages from this that are going to

633
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: make you gag. It is unbearable. So and it's like

634
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: this article is like ten fucking words. It took me

635
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 1: like an hour to get through this thing. It's massive.

636
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: Is He's like, maybe if I do it, he'll give

637
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 1: me a kiss on the mouth. Well, basically this this

638
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 1: was published by Sequoia, which is a massive like investment

639
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 1: fucking fund thing on their website journalistic entity. Yeah, it

640
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 1: looks like that. It looks exactly like an article from

641
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 1: like Wired or something like. They clearly laid it out

642
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: like that. But I think it was done because they

643
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 1: put like two hundred million dollars into his company, so

644
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: they needed to justify it by making them look like

645
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 1: a genius. So it's like those articles that like are occasionally,

646
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it's more scary when they're on actual journalistic outlets.

647
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: And then there's just a little tag saying like hey,

648
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,799
Speaker 1: this is sponsored by RuPaul's fracking farm or whatever the funk,

649
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: and it's like why why on mobile um LGBT icons.

650
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: So yeah, Sam Bankman freed gets into finance and he's

651
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 1: a very good trader. As I mean, I have no

652
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: way to judge this, but Sequoia says he was a

653
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: good trader. Um, he was good at making a lot

654
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: of money for other people and also a lot of

655
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:40,439
Speaker 1: money for himself. Besides from he gave away fifty percent

656
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,360
Speaker 1: of his income to his favorite charities, but those charities

657
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: were mostly the Center for Effective Altruism and eighty thousand Hours,

658
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: which is also an effective altruism charity. Good money, that's

659
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 1: a great question, Jamie. Um. It allows guys like like

660
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:57,439
Speaker 1: mccaskell to live very well, while also saying they only

661
00:36:57,480 --> 00:36:59,759
Speaker 1: take thirty thou dollars in salaries and give away the

662
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: rest because their lives are heavily subsidized by these organizations

663
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: that allow billionaires to pretend to be heroes. So like,

664
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: so like charity, so like charity. Yeah. So he remains

665
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: there happily for years until two thousand seventeen, when he

666
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 1: begins to feel as if something is not right. Now

667
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 1: spoilers having crisis, he is having a quarter life crisis.

668
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:23,000
Speaker 1: And this kid absolutely as a con artist. And what

669
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: I am giving you was the polished, press friendly version

670
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,799
Speaker 1: of the story for a guy whose entire life, as

671
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: far as I can tell, was one long set up

672
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,400
Speaker 1: for an ambitious con. So when I say stuff like

673
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 1: he gave a lot of money to charity, because there's

674
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: like other charities he gives to some which sound reasonable,

675
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: but I have actually no evidence that he did like,

676
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 1: I have no evidence that he did, and I haven't

677
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: seen it. Um So when I say stuff like he

678
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: felt like that, or when they say stuff like he

679
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 1: felt unfulfilled at Jane Street, that doesn't mean he actually did.

680
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: Because we are at present reliant on a lot of

681
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 1: reporting from back when this kid was the toast of

682
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: Wall Street. Now after his life fell apart and his

683
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: company crash and it became clear that he was a

684
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: financial criminal, it also came out that the guy who

685
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,800
Speaker 1: wrote the big short has been following him for six months.

686
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: So I suspect at some point it's got that's gonna

687
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: be fun. We're all going to be in for a

688
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 1: real treat when that books. I love. I love when

689
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: you're like, and guess who is following him around? You're like, oh,

690
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: he's got Michael Lewis on his dail. It's like and also,

691
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 1: if you're an investor, shouldn't like it's somebody involved in

692
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: one of these companies. Probably should have been able to

693
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: find out, like, oh, hey, the big short guys hanging

694
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: out with him, that probably means this is a giant

695
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: financial crime. That guy's not gonna just hang out with

696
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,479
Speaker 1: a dude who's good at legally making money to write

697
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: about how good he is it making money legally, because

698
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: that's not Michael Lewis is beat. I'm kind of going

699
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: for like a change of paces time, just gonna try

700
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,640
Speaker 1: to see a guy who's like doing something right. Yeah, Michael,

701
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,840
Speaker 1: aren't you the guy who only writes about financial crimes

702
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: on like a gigantic scale. No, No, I think this

703
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: is he's just probably just trying to network. Yeah, it's

704
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: just just just really like this guy's attitude towards altruism.

705
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 1: So anyway, um, yeah, anyway, here's how that again, very

706
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: dick writing pr flack motherfucker wrote about what happens next.

707
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: He was he realized too secure. Spfs mind had been

708
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: trained almost from birth to calculate as a schoolboy that

709
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: hedonic calculus of utilitarianism. And I'm trying to maximize the

710
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: utility function measured in Util's of course for abortion. During

711
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: his teenage game I know, I know that's a sentence.

712
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: Does he say, of course? Uh no, No, I said

713
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 1: that he does say, he does say, he does say,

714
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: of course, yes, measured of course, of course. Suck my ass,

715
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: you find unbelievable. During his teenage gaming years, his mathematical

716
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: abilities allowed him to sharpen his tactics and win. And

717
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: of course, every trade spf Ever made at Jane was

718
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: the subject of a risk reward calcul lation, all of

719
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 1: it boiled down to expected value. The formula is fairly simple.

720
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: If the amount one multiplied by the probability of winning

721
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: a bet is greater than the amount loss multiplied by

722
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: the probability of losing a bet, then you go for it.

723
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: Irrespective of units Util's euros, dollars, We're all subject to

724
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: the same reckoning. But at Jane, spf us most another

725
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,759
Speaker 1: trading principle. He learned to be risk neutral. In simple terms,

726
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: a trader given a choice between a fifty fifty dollars

727
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 1: and a fifty chance at a hundred dollars must be

728
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: agnostic if they want to maximize the expected value of

729
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: earnings over a lifetime. Those who prefer that sure win

730
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: are risk averse and those who would rather gamble our

731
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: risk lovers. But both risk lovers and the risk averse

732
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: are suckers equally because over the long run they lose

733
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 1: out to the risk neutral who take both deals without prejudice.

734
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: That makes no sense. That makes no sense at all,

735
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: because like you, you're you're assuming you have to like

736
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 1: choose between one? Can you just take both? Is that

737
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: like the is that the offer? Because it seems like

738
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: the whole thought experiment is about choosing between one. None

739
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 1: of this makes very much sense. I had a brain

740
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: hemorrhage in them it all of that, and then I

741
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: was thinking I couldn't stop thinking about do you think

742
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: of the utilitarians? How do utilitarians feel about kissing with tongue?

743
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:12,239
Speaker 1: Do you think, um, how many utils does it take

744
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: to kiss with tongue? Or or don't waste your fire.

745
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: Let me write the equation out, Jamie and try to

746
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: try to sketch out the math on I think they

747
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 1: wouldn't be into it. I think they would be like, well,

748
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: what's the point. Yeah, that's that seems real. Five utils. Sorry, James, Jamie,

749
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: I gotta continue to say, I don't know, but we

750
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: have to read another one quote here. SPF realized was

751
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: the rub When he applied this principle to his own life,

752
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,719
Speaker 1: he came up short. There was little chance he'd get

753
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: himself fired from Jane Street. Thus, the decision to stick

754
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: with Jane was a risk averse preference. It was the

755
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: logical equivalent of being offered a choice between fifty dollars

756
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 1: and fifty of a hundred dollars and saying give me

757
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: President Grant. SPF was risk neutral on behalf of Jane Street,

758
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: but not He realized for his own life, to be

759
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 1: fully rational about maximizing his income on behalf of the poor,

760
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: he should apply his trading principles across the board. He

761
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: had to find a risk neutral career path, which, if

762
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: we strip away the trader jargon, actually means he needed

763
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: to take on a lot more risk. Oh Jamie, you

764
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: need to hear this, boy. We're driving it away. I've

765
00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,759
Speaker 1: been asleep for six minutes. Come on, Which if we

766
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: strip away. The trader jargon actually means he felt he

767
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: needed to take on a lot more risk in the

768
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,520
Speaker 1: hopes of becoming part of the global elite. The math

769
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: couldn't be clearer. Very high risk multiplied by dynastic wealth.

770
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: Trump's low risk multiplied by mere rich guy wealth. To

771
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: do the most good for the world, SPF needed to

772
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: find a path on which he'd be a coin toss

773
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: away from going totally bust. So has this risk neutral,

774
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 1: But that means taking a lot of risk, because the

775
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 1: most risk is the only way to become the wealthiest

776
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,280
Speaker 1: person in the world. And only by becoming the wealthiest

777
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: person in the world can you avoid risk. You get it, Jamie. Yeah,

778
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 1: And that's the most ethical thing you can do. That's

779
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: the really the most logical ethical way to live. So

780
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: do you think that they kissed with done or not?

781
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what he's saying is ordered in

782
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: order to avoid the risk of catching an STD you

783
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: have to take on a job as the bathroom at

784
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: at a brothel. Um Ah, that's the risk a verse

785
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: or risk neutral presentation. Frantically rubbing my final grand cells together,

786
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: trying to make heads or tails of that, and it is.

787
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: It is howling clown shit. It is absolutely sparking nonsense.

788
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: Is like of a vortex of bullshit to be like,

789
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: so anyways, it's really clear and the math couldn't be

790
00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:44,839
Speaker 1: clear that he has to be the most richest guy

791
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: or everyone is going to die, like actually really urgent.

792
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: You know, it's one of those things because I have

793
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 1: I have known a number of rich guys in my life, um,

794
00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:00,200
Speaker 1: and some of them are in late for you, there's

795
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,200
Speaker 1: two kinds. There's people. There's people who were poor at

796
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: one point, and some of those people are unhinged and

797
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: some of them still remember being poor enough to talk

798
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: like normal people. And then there's people like this who

799
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: Sam was never rich as a kid, but he lived

800
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,800
Speaker 1: in this rarefied air where finance and like the concept

801
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: of worrying about money or his economic status was not

802
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: a thing because everyone around him when he was a

803
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: kid was so high status. And he like, he's just

804
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 1: lived in this it's not even a it's not even

805
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 1: a bubble. He grew up on a different planet, Like

806
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 1: the world does not exist to him the same way

807
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 1: it does to everyone else. And so he's like, that's

808
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 1: the only way you can talk about things in this way. Um,

809
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: that you're sort of sinister thing where you're talking about

810
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,359
Speaker 1: everything like it is very my thinking. It's like it's

811
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 1: so easy for him and people like this to think

812
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: of other people as theoreticals because they've never had a

813
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 1: problem before. So it's are a game of chance because

814
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: met a person, right, right, he has never known a

815
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: human being. Just Stanford professors exactly, just Stanford professors and

816
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: problems in his video games. So yeah, and not that

817
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: all nerds. I mean, I'm not I'm I'm afraid of nerds,

818
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 1: you know, people who identify as nerds coming into my mansis.

819
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that that's everybody, but I'm saying like

820
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: he's not socialized like a person, and that these are

821
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: has to do with class. Yeah, God damn it. Um.

822
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: So the next thing that SPF did after deciding he

823
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: had to quit Jane Street, um is start pondering how

824
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 1: he might change the world in a way that minimized

825
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,760
Speaker 1: his risk. By maximizing his risk or some ship anyway,

826
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: as he told it, he considered four career fields and

827
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: this is These are his notes on the four things

828
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: he might do after being a traitor. Number one journalism

829
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,439
Speaker 1: low pay, but a massively outsized impact potential. Number two

830
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 1: running for office or maybe just being an advisor. Number

831
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: three working for the movement e a effect of altruism

832
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,000
Speaker 1: needs people. Number four starting a startup. But what exactly

833
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: Number five bumming around the Bay Area for a month

834
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: or so just to see what happens. Now again, it

835
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 1: sounds like a bad bumble day, Like it's like, so

836
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: what do you do? It's like, oh, well, um, so

837
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,800
Speaker 1: start up maybe, but what is a start up? Really?

838
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: What is a startup? So again, he spent years working

839
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: in finance, He's got plenty of money. He came from

840
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 1: the Bay Area, So five was an option and it's

841
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: one he took. Um And by the way, like as

842
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: a general rule, if you decide to quit your job

843
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: and you have the financial ability to put her amount

844
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 1: around for a month or two and think things through,

845
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: not a bad idea, um, But Sam is going to

846
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 1: do this in the worst way possible. He eventually hits

847
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: upon his great next idea, which is to make a

848
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 1: shipload of money in crypto now when he quits. Jane

849
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: Street is two thousand seventeen, and if you guys can

850
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: remember back that far, that's the first big winter when

851
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency boomed like kind of all throughout the last quarter

852
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,799
Speaker 1: or so of two thousand seventeen, bitcoin was just say

853
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,959
Speaker 1: laying up like massive rises. Ether had a big rice

854
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 1: to just kind of went around early. A lot of

855
00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: bitcoin nerds who have people have been making fun of

856
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: her years became overnight multimillionaires. And this was kind of

857
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: the first point at which normal people started to think, ship,

858
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: maybe I should get into this, maybe I can make

859
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Right. This is this is the

860
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 1: thing that blew up bitcoin. And there was a crash

861
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: after this, but it recovered, YadA, YadA, YadA. Sam was

862
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: savvy enough to look at this and know that these

863
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: moments where this thing where a lot of funny money

864
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 1: is on the table but there's no regulation um and

865
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: regular people who started to get interested because they think

866
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: they might get rich. This is the point at which

867
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,759
Speaker 1: an unethical person can make the absolute most money in

868
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: a financial market. Right, And you can be unethical, to

869
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: quote one of the greats, you can be unethical and

870
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 1: still be illegal. That's the way I live my life.

871
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: And you know who else lives their life that way?

872
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: Jamie loftus you and you're tossing the ads. Yeah, that's right,

873
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:59,799
Speaker 1: I am indeed, baby. Uh here we go, all right

874
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 1: and we're back. So Jay Loft, Yes, it's actually j Low.

875
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: It's the first. I'm the first person to use that,

876
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 1: and it's really starting to catch on bowls um afflex

877
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,359
Speaker 1: calling me one sect, Jamie, let me take this call.

878
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: Oh that's why, boyfriend. Now he's just weeping outside of

879
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: a dunkin Donuts and pocket dialed me again, normal normal

880
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: Ben stuff? Am I right? Ben? Look sometimes I meet

881
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 1: I meet up with my friend Ben at the Atwater

882
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: Dunks and I really, I really said him straight. It's nice. Yeah,

883
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: Ben afflick sober for years and looks like he's hungover

884
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 1: in every single photograph. What a king man, I know,

885
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 1: I do, I do. I have a lot of There's

886
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,399
Speaker 1: just a something about him that warms my heart. It's

887
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: his back tattoo. You love his back tattoos. It's just

888
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: that takes courage, you know, oral courage. I think he's

889
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 1: amazed that I think we need to have that back

890
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:11,320
Speaker 1: tattoo and still got to marry Jennifer Lope. I think

891
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: I think put his name on the Vietnam Memorial in

892
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 1: honor of the courage that it took to get that

893
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: that back tattoo really is braver than the troops. And

894
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 1: he did for a while hold hold the status of

895
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,839
Speaker 1: most divorced man in America. Um, but that is now

896
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: what he fixed it. But the contest, I was going

897
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: to say, they did they did get married at a plantation.

898
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:38,879
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah that I mean, that's all. That's

899
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: all very fucked up. But I do feel the contest

900
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 1: for most divorced man. Did you ever watch dragon ball

901
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,080
Speaker 1: Z as a kid, Jamie, I didn't know. I didn't know. Well,

902
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 1: there's this thing that Dragon ball Z would always do

903
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: this thing where like you have this guy and he's

904
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: like the most badass person ever that everybody has to

905
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: figure out how to fight. And it's this big problem

906
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,320
Speaker 1: because this is the most terrifying thing in the universe.

907
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: And the next season, like there's something that's like a

908
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,359
Speaker 1: thousand times scarier. It's just this like power creep kind

909
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,319
Speaker 1: of thing. I feel like we've all been dealing with

910
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,240
Speaker 1: that with a divorced guy, because divorced guy Ben affleck

911
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 1: Not doesn't even register on the divorced guy scale. Living

912
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: in the Age of Kanye and it's really divorced and

913
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: look out because Tom Brady is about to hit the world. Trade.

914
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: Tom Brady is gonna go super say and divorce that

915
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: is going to a third divorce Man has hit the world.

916
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 1: It's incredible. So back to Sam Bankman freed. He is

917
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,879
Speaker 1: just he has just decided to get into crypto now

918
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: the first way to make money in crypto. That that

919
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: occurred to him because he spends a bunch of time

920
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: looking into the market and he finds he sees that

921
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: there's this thing called I think it's like the Kimchi

922
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 1: premium or whatever like that. They come up with some weird,

923
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: kind of racist name about it, which is basically bitcoin

924
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: is worth a lot more in Japan and Korea than

925
00:50:58,160 --> 00:50:59,919
Speaker 1: it is in the United States. Right, It's like worth

926
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: fifteen grand in Japan and Korea and it's like tin

927
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: grand in the United States something like that. Why is

928
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,880
Speaker 1: that there's a variety of complicated factors. Basically there's a

929
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: bunch of different laws around banking and who can and

930
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: cannot hold accounts and execute trades in those areas. That

931
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 1: leads to this premium. Because like normally, if a premium

932
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: like that, if the markets were kind of accessible to

933
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: each other, and bitcoins worth fifteen grand in Asia and

934
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 1: ten grand in the US. Then you buy bitcoin in

935
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: the US and you sell it in Asia and you

936
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 1: get free money, right um. Very obvious, um if you can.

937
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: But you can't do that because you can't get access

938
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: to as an American, you can't like get a Chinese

939
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 1: account in order to buy bitcoin there, right M or

940
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: a Korean account or a Japanese account. There's all these

941
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 1: laws and they can't VPN. No, you can't. You cannot

942
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: do that, and no one can figure out how to

943
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 1: do it how as a Westerner to sell bitcoin over

944
00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 1: in these parts of Asia and get that premium, right

945
00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: and like just get a bunch of free cash. Sam

946
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 1: years out a way to do it, um, which is

947
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: basically like picking up a pile of free money. Right

948
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,720
Speaker 1: if you're buying bitcoin for ten grand and other people

949
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: want to pay fifteen grand for it, you're just making cash,

950
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: right um. And primarily the way he does that is

951
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: through friends in the effective altruism community who are like

952
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: placed in banks and stuff over in Asia, who like

953
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: help him figure out how to do this. I'm not

954
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,160
Speaker 1: going to go into details. They I mean, this fucking

955
00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: dick writing article spends a long time explaining how he

956
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,240
Speaker 1: figures this out, and it might even have been legal.

957
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,799
Speaker 1: He may not have broken the law to do this,

958
00:52:31,840 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 1: although it's kind of hard to know because all of

959
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 1: this is complicated finance gibberish um. By the way, honestly,

960
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: I'm not getting a word of this. Finance guys call

961
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,239
Speaker 1: this an arbitrage, and it's basically the ideal that if

962
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 1: you can, if there's a resource that's worth a bunch

963
00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 1: more money one place than it is the other place,

964
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 1: you buy it where it's cheap, and you sell it

965
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 1: where it's expensive, and you get free money. Right, that

966
00:52:53,000 --> 00:53:00,719
Speaker 1: makes sense? Yeah? Yeah, If if my drug dealer sells

967
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 1: me ketamine for like forty bucks a graham, right, and

968
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, at a house party you're hanging out

969
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: at a couple of blocks away, somebody gibb says that

970
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: they'd pay seventy dollars a graham for ketamine. You can

971
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 1: make thirty free bucks by taking the ketamine you bought

972
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: for forty bucks and selling it at that other house party. Right. Okay,

973
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: so that was you speaking to me in terms that

974
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:27,879
Speaker 1: you would understand. But I do think I got it. Yeah, yeah,

975
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: ketamine makes everything makes sense. So he just gave it

976
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: to me. In Robert's speak, I got it, I got

977
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,239
Speaker 1: he makes He makes a shipload of money doing this,

978
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 1: and he decides to roll this money into a company

979
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 1: which will allow him to hire employees to gamble with

980
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency at scale, to try and find different funked up

981
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 1: little areas like this where they can make a bunch

982
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: of money by executing trades. He picks members of the

983
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: e A community as his first employees, including Carolyn Ellison,

984
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,600
Speaker 1: a former coworker co worker at Jane Street who we

985
00:53:56,640 --> 00:53:59,319
Speaker 1: will be talking about in a little bit, and Nishad Singh,

986
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,720
Speaker 1: a former Facebook employee. Industrial scale dick writer Adam Fisher

987
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: lets you know that sing is an incredible, almost impossibly

988
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 1: good human being by describing him this way. He often

989
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: wears a T shirt with the words Compassionate to the

990
00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: core printed in diminutive all lower case font over his heart.

991
00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 1: Do you do you think that this guy, this writer

992
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 1: like just it's at this point he's on like a

993
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:27,200
Speaker 1: bucking bronco ASBFS dick, Like it's just absolutely he is

994
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:30,359
Speaker 1: he is, he is fift this guy's dick by weight.

995
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: It is unbelievable. What does he think is going to

996
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: happen for him? He's got to get paid by Sequoia

997
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,879
Speaker 1: to write a ten thousand word article that they then

998
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: pull from their website. When it becomes clear this man

999
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:45,720
Speaker 1: is a massive financial crinamental, he's like, no, my greatest work,

1000
00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: it's extremely funny. No, look, I don't know sing. But

1001
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,120
Speaker 1: based on the description that guy gives, I am convinced

1002
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: he's murdered a child with his bare hands. And that

1003
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: is my head cannon for this man. UM. No one

1004
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: else would wear that shirt. So these these e A

1005
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 1: nerds all form a trading firm called Alameda UM, and

1006
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: in doing so, they came down on one side of

1007
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: probably the biggest split within the crypto community. See, the

1008
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: core of the idea that's not bad that exists within

1009
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: cryptocurrency is that decent is that centralized state controlled money

1010
00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:23,839
Speaker 1: is like has problems, right, you know that there's things

1011
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: about that that are bad, um, And it could be

1012
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 1: cool and useful to be able to separate the money

1013
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: from the state if you could do that right, if

1014
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,920
Speaker 1: you could do that in a way that reduced the

1015
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 1: state's power to like you know, just locked down the

1016
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,959
Speaker 1: bank accounts of dissidence and stuff like that. There's there's

1017
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,839
Speaker 1: cool benefits to it. And what I just had an idea,

1018
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,520
Speaker 1: what if we did that, but then we gave all

1019
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,799
Speaker 1: the money to one guy. Well that's kind of what

1020
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,440
Speaker 1: keeps happening. Um So. But also like spfs on the

1021
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: other side of this argument, right, because obviously most of

1022
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:58,399
Speaker 1: the actual benefits of a truly decentralized online currency are

1023
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:00,440
Speaker 1: just you can buy drugs with it over the internet.

1024
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: But still that is a real value people do in

1025
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 1: fact by drugs using cryptocurrency, and that's fine, um And

1026
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 1: the committed ideological crypto people tend to keep their money

1027
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: offline in a wallet only they can access, right. So

1028
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: you basically you have like a hard drive that has

1029
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,720
Speaker 1: all of your crypto on it, and that that only

1030
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: touches the Internet when you plug that into your computer

1031
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:25,520
Speaker 1: and you use it to make a transaction, right and

1032
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,040
Speaker 1: otherwise it's completely offline, and so people can't just take

1033
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: it from you, right right, that's the smart people. This

1034
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 1: is a pain in the ass though, right, Like keeping

1035
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 1: it in this thing, like there's all these security you

1036
00:56:38,040 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 1: can lose your password people actually do lose their money

1037
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: this way too, But anyway, it's it's there's a measure

1038
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: to which it it makes sense and is secure, but

1039
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:49,080
Speaker 1: most people don't want to go through that pain in

1040
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: the ass, so they put all of their cryptome currency

1041
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:55,879
Speaker 1: and what are effectively crypto banks these exchanges, and these

1042
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: exchanges are places like Mount Cox which a few years

1043
00:56:58,640 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: ago all of the money got stole, and from an

1044
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: f t X which Sam Bankman freedmakes, which also all

1045
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 1: of the money gets stolen from. Right. So the people

1046
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 1: who are like, no, you shouldn't do what Sam is doing.

1047
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 1: You shouldn't make an exchange because that's not decentralized, and

1048
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 1: we like this because it's decentralized, they are the ones

1049
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: who get robbed less often because because they're a little

1050
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: smarter um. And that's part of the point these exchanges.

1051
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: They're meant for people who don't see crypto actually is like, well,

1052
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: I I want to fight the state by removing my

1053
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: money from the banking system. There for people who are

1054
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 1: like I want to try to get rich quick by gambling, right,

1055
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,160
Speaker 1: and that's why those people are also the most vulnerable

1056
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,560
Speaker 1: to scams. UM. However, anytime you explain crypto with me.

1057
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: To me, even though I know I need to understand

1058
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 1: it for the context of the episode, I just feel

1059
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 1: like I'm in a corner at a house party and

1060
00:57:48,440 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 1: I'm holding a clammy bud light and it's mostly empty,

1061
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,440
Speaker 1: and You're like, just one more thing though, because you know,

1062
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: I mean, the important thing to understand is that what

1063
00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,440
Speaker 1: Sam has done so crypto is like unregular aided right.

1064
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: It is detached from any state, Okay, which is why

1065
00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 1: people like it, Which is why people like it. Yes,

1066
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: Sam has what Sam has done has come in and

1067
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 1: he's not the first persons to do this and said,

1068
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: I have built a place where you can keep all

1069
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: of your crypto and you can trade it with other

1070
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: crypto to try to make money the same way people

1071
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: do with the stock market, right where it is more secure. No,

1072
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: because here's the thing, Jamie, he says, it's secure. But

1073
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 1: here's the thing. So you know how the banking system,

1074
00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: how banks used to just go bust and everyone would

1075
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: lose their money and it caused a great depression. You

1076
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: get that part of the history of finance, right. Oh yeah,

1077
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 1: one of the characters from Titanic killed themselves over that.

1078
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,440
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. So that was a big problem, and we

1079
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: developed a bunch of regulations so that So what Sam

1080
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: has done is he's built a bank that has none

1081
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: of that so that people can gamble on the internet.

1082
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, got exactly. That's all you need to understand

1083
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:00,200
Speaker 1: is that Sam has built a big unregular they did

1084
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 1: bank for people to gamble with. UM. Yeah, anyway, UM,

1085
00:59:05,120 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 1: and this is this is it is. It could not

1086
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 1: have been clearer that this was a Ponzi scheme. And

1087
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:12,360
Speaker 1: two eighteen they put out an advertisement to investors and

1088
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to read it right now. I think you'll

1089
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:20,640
Speaker 1: be like. We offer one investment product, annualized fixed rate loans.

1090
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: We can accept both fiat and crypto and can pay

1091
00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:27,200
Speaker 1: interest denominated in either. UM. These loans have no downside.

1092
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:30,400
Speaker 1: We guarantee full payment the principle and interest enforceable under

1093
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: US law and established by all parties legal counsel. We

1094
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,560
Speaker 1: are extremely confident we will pay this amount in the

1095
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,320
Speaker 1: unlikely case where we lose more than two percent. Anyway, Again,

1096
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: I'm not a finance expert. Neither of you Jamie banks

1097
00:59:42,720 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 1: offer like three percent return on like a fucking uh.

1098
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:49,200
Speaker 1: If you're like putting a pile of cash in a

1099
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: bank and you're getting three percent back, You're doing okay

1100
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 1: nonsense that nobody, no one can guarantee that it's not

1101
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:01,480
Speaker 1: a real product. I would pretty struck by their use

1102
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: of the length whiche like we're pretty confident we're gonna

1103
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 1: be able to play it sounds like it's such just

1104
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,480
Speaker 1: sounds like someone who is not actually very confident. And

1105
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: also if this is if you are if you are

1106
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 1: investing in a mark in the stock market, right, and

1107
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 1: someone says this investment has no downside, it's impossible for

1108
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:20,560
Speaker 1: it to fail. That person's lying to you and breaking

1109
01:00:20,640 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 1: the law because it could and often does. Oh right,

1110
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 1: because then you're just you're you're making an almost guaranteed

1111
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: false problems. Yes, you cannot do you cannot say this

1112
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: stock can't go down. Right, If you're a stockbroker, you

1113
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: cannot tell a client it is impossible for your investment

1114
01:00:36,040 --> 01:00:39,680
Speaker 1: in this company to fail because that would be a crime. Um.

1115
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 1: But with crypto crypt that's unterted territory, territory, you can

1116
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 1: do anything. This is also a Ponzi scheme, right, What

1117
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: what what fucking made Off was doing is he had

1118
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: this investment portfolio that was I forget with the exact

1119
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: but it was promising an unbelievably high return and guaranteeing

1120
01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: that people would get it right. And what he was

1121
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,600
Speaker 1: doing is as new people put money into the investment,

1122
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: he was using their money to pay the old investors

1123
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 1: so that nobody noticed that things were sucking up. But

1124
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 1: eventually new people stopped putting money into the thing, and

1125
01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: it all fell apart and a lot of people lost

1126
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: billions of dollars, right, Like, yeah, he was also using

1127
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 1: a lot of that money to live, you know, an

1128
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: incredibly lavish rich guy live anyway. Sorry, I only understand

1129
01:01:24,080 --> 01:01:27,160
Speaker 1: financial concepts when Selena Gomez breaks the fourth wall and

1130
01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 1: explains it to me. I'm doing my best to be

1131
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:35,439
Speaker 1: your Selena Gomez. But do you know who Selena Gomez is? Yeah,

1132
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,960
Speaker 1: she's that chick from the Thing Nailed It. She's she's

1133
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 1: kind of in the middle of a fun scandal right

1134
01:01:40,920 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 1: now where she's in a feud with someone who donated

1135
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: her a kidney what which is a very funny online

1136
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 1: feud feud with that person because she Okay, if you

1137
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,440
Speaker 1: asked Robert, this is something I can explain to you.

1138
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,160
Speaker 1: This so, so what happened was Selena Gomez needed a

1139
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: kidney donated her close friend who works in the industry.

1140
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:07,320
Speaker 1: I don't know who it was, but I guess she's

1141
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 1: like sort of famous gave her a kidney a couple

1142
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,640
Speaker 1: of years ago. Then Selena Gomez turns around a couple

1143
01:02:12,640 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: of weeks ago and says, I have no friends in

1144
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:18,800
Speaker 1: the industry except Taylor Swift incomes her kidney dontor being like, oh,

1145
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: that's interesting because I'm one kidney light d like I'm

1146
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,640
Speaker 1: not quoting it, but and then, and then Selena, instead

1147
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 1: of apologizing, Selena Gomez is like, oh, sorry, I didn't

1148
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: thank every person I've ever met in my life. Yeah,

1149
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 1: but I mean, Selina, she did give you a kidney. Yeah,

1150
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,120
Speaker 1: that's a special kind of friend. You guys weren't just

1151
01:02:39,240 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 1: like drinking buddies. She literally gave you a kidney. Um,

1152
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:45,840
Speaker 1: and that she did. She did the thing that you

1153
01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: would use as like a joking description of someone who've

1154
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:52,439
Speaker 1: done a lot for you, to like like hyperbolically say

1155
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: that you owed them a lot you know who's done

1156
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 1: and implying that Taylor Swift has done more for you

1157
01:02:58,640 --> 01:03:02,360
Speaker 1: than your kidney don't so. I just think it's the

1158
01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: funniest feat of all time. Alright, we were talking about

1159
01:03:04,680 --> 01:03:09,360
Speaker 1: a cryptocurrency. We weren't. Um, we were talking about let's

1160
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 1: let's get back to cryptocurrency. So to talk about what

1161
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 1: came next after establishing Alameda, UM, I'm going to quote

1162
01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 1: again from that sequoia right up at this point mid

1163
01:03:22,880 --> 01:03:25,880
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, SPF decided to double down again and

1164
01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 1: scratch his own itch. He would bet Alameda's multimillion dollar

1165
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 1: trading profits on a new venture, a trading exchange called

1166
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:35,240
Speaker 1: f t X. It would combine coin bases, solid stolen

1167
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: regulation loving approach with the kinds of derivatives being offered

1168
01:03:38,360 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: by by Anance and others. He only gave himself a

1169
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 1: twenty chance of success, but in his mind, SPF needed

1170
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 1: extreme risk to maximize the expected value of his lifetime

1171
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,960
Speaker 1: earnings and therefore the good his earn to give strategy

1172
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 1: could do. The fact that he was, by his own

1173
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 1: lights overwhelmingly likely to fail was besides the point. The

1174
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: point was this, when SPF multiplied out million billions of

1175
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 1: dollars a year, a successful cryptocur and the exchange could

1176
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:04,280
Speaker 1: throw off by his self assessed chance of successfully building one.

1177
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: The number was still huge. That's the expected value. And

1178
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: if you live your life according to the same principles

1179
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: by which you trade an asset, there's only one way forward.

1180
01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:15,080
Speaker 1: You calculate the expected values, then aim for the largest one,

1181
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 1: because in one, but just one alternate future universe, everything

1182
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 1: works out fabulously. To maximize your expected value, you must

1183
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:23,880
Speaker 1: aim for it and then march blindly forth, acting as

1184
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 1: if the fabulously lucky f b SPF of the future

1185
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 1: can reach into the other parallel universes and compensate the

1186
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,240
Speaker 1: fail sun spfs for their losses. It sounds crazy, perhaps

1187
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: even selfish, but it's not. It's math. It follows the

1188
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 1: principle of risk neutrality. Yes, it actually is crazy. That's

1189
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:44,800
Speaker 1: not math. I'm sorry, that's actually not math, but a

1190
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:49,000
Speaker 1: lot of words all at once. That is like, oh

1191
01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: my god, the spiraling launch is this? You are using

1192
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 1: hundreds of words and high minded bullshit rhetoric to be

1193
01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:00,440
Speaker 1: like gambling is the best way to make money. He's

1194
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: fabulously three times in one sentence. Yeah, man, you know who.

1195
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,440
Speaker 1: I've heard this basic argument from my friends drunk in

1196
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 1: Las Vegas, explaining what they're trying to play at the craps.

1197
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 1: Why they don't want me to leave the little Horsey game?

1198
01:05:15,280 --> 01:05:17,240
Speaker 1: This is something. Yeah, someone's like, no, don't leave the

1199
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 1: Sex in the City slot machine, and you're you want

1200
01:05:20,160 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: to You want to hear my mathematical thinking on gambling,

1201
01:05:23,080 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus, because this will make more sense than anything

1202
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 1: that happens in the Sequoia article. Okay, when I go

1203
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: to Las Vegas, I find me the penny slots where

1204
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: I can see the most waitresses walking around with those

1205
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 1: little trays that they have the drinks and stuff on.

1206
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:38,600
Speaker 1: Then I sit down at them and I don't start

1207
01:05:38,640 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: to play until one gets close to me, and then

1208
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: I pressed the button as soon as she walks past,

1209
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 1: and I like, catch your attention, and then I get

1210
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: a free drink. And the way that it works out

1211
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 1: is that as long as I can get more free

1212
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,680
Speaker 1: drinks than I'm spending at the penny slots, and mostly

1213
01:05:53,720 --> 01:05:55,640
Speaker 1: I'm just reading a book and hiding it while I'm

1214
01:05:55,680 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 1: at the penny slots and only press it when the

1215
01:05:57,240 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: waitress gets near. Like the other Vegas guys, I can

1216
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 1: drink effectively for free. Right, it works out to be

1217
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 1: like twenty five cents of drink if you're really smart

1218
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: about it. That is my financial advice to all of you.

1219
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:12,400
Speaker 1: I do. I do respect that how you make it

1220
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 1: even better. I used to go with a bag because

1221
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: when I was poor. What I would do is I

1222
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 1: would go to Vegas once every couple of years, usually

1223
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 1: for work, and I would get all the free drinks,

1224
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: which came in glasses a lot of the time, and

1225
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 1: I would keep the glasses, and so I was able

1226
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: to furnish my apartment with stolen Las Vegas glasses. Love

1227
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 1: stealing glasses. I've my fair share of glasses. And I

1228
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 1: would get up to the floors where there were the

1229
01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:36,479
Speaker 1: nicer hotel rooms, and I would find all the people

1230
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 1: who set out their plates and stuff from like room service,

1231
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,120
Speaker 1: and I would just take those and take them back

1232
01:06:41,160 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: to my house. I respect that. I'm trying to think.

1233
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 1: I was like, I don't have a real system for well. Actually,

1234
01:06:48,600 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 1: when I go to Vegas, I always stay at the

1235
01:06:50,280 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 1: hotel with a roller coaster on top. And here's what

1236
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 1: I do. I go on the roller coaster once, sometimes twice.

1237
01:06:56,320 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 1: Then I go see one show. Usually it's horrible. The

1238
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 1: last time to see the Backstreet Boys. And guess what

1239
01:07:02,480 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: I found out One of the Backstreet Boys is in

1240
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: Q and on and then I got bumped up from this.

1241
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: It was a real The point I want to make, Jamie,

1242
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 1: is that what I just described to you, my Vegas

1243
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 1: strategy has made me infinite, infinitely more money and net

1244
01:07:18,120 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: profit than Samuel Bankman. Freed is actually going to make

1245
01:07:21,440 --> 01:07:29,040
Speaker 1: in crypto Kurts. Oh fun foreshadowing. Um, So never hang

1246
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:31,760
Speaker 1: out near waitresses though, because he's probably afraid of women.

1247
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,000
Speaker 1: He's probably afraid of them. But I am fine with

1248
01:07:34,040 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: asking women for a free drink as long as I'm

1249
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: paying at the penny slots, you know, So it's not weird. Wow.

1250
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 1: Feminist icon, robertist icon, Robert Evans, getting those getting those

1251
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: shitty Vegas Irish copies. They come in the glasses. I

1252
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,480
Speaker 1: want a nasty but I like the glasses they used

1253
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: to come in. They do have, I know, but then

1254
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 1: there's the consequence of having to drink with inside. Well,

1255
01:07:56,520 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 1: you know, Jamie, that's why they call me a hero. Um.

1256
01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 1: But the Mahatma Gandhi of the West, they call me

1257
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:05,959
Speaker 1: the Jesus Christ. And podcasting. These are all things people

1258
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: if you're gonna lie, make it realistic, James, So James soup. Anyway,

1259
01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 1: let's continue. Um, I'm like, yeah, I think it's hard

1260
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 1: to justify being risk averse on your own personal impact

1261
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 1: impact SPF told me when I quized him about it,

1262
01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 1: unless you're doing it for personal reasons. In other words,

1263
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: it's selfish not to go for broke if you're planning

1264
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,599
Speaker 1: on giving it all away in the end. Anyway, again,

1265
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:36,000
Speaker 1: just clown shit. So all of this is a con spoilers,

1266
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: so you don't have to think that much about it.

1267
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:40,720
Speaker 1: In a recent series of text messages with a Vox journalist,

1268
01:08:40,800 --> 01:08:43,640
Speaker 1: after his entire exchange exploded and everyone found out he

1269
01:08:43,680 --> 01:08:47,320
Speaker 1: was a financial criminal, Sam Bankman, Freed more or less

1270
01:08:47,360 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 1: admitted that everything he'd had to say about effective altruism

1271
01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 1: was a con meant to get people to trust him

1272
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 1: and invest in his company. And I'm gonna read the

1273
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 1: text Yeah, I'm gonna read the texts to you between

1274
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: him and this journalist who, by the way, he put

1275
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 1: money in the v so he helped fund this journalist.

1276
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 1: So the ethics stuff, this is the journalist. So the

1277
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,640
Speaker 1: ethics stuff mostly affront people will like you if you

1278
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: win and hate you with you lose, and that's how

1279
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:13,599
Speaker 1: it all really works, Sam, Yeah, I mean that's not

1280
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: all of it, but it's a lot. The worst quadrant

1281
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 1: is sketchy and lose. The best is win plus question

1282
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 1: mark question mark question mark clean plus loses bad but

1283
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 1: not terrible. He also misspells terrible but whatever the journalist

1284
01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: and then replies, you were really good at talking about

1285
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,360
Speaker 1: ethics for someone who kind of saw it all as

1286
01:09:31,360 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 1: a game with winners and losers. Yeah, he he, I

1287
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: had to be. It's what reputations are made of. To

1288
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,960
Speaker 1: some extent, I feel bad for those who get sucked

1289
01:09:41,040 --> 01:09:43,559
Speaker 1: by it. But this dumb game, we woke Westerner's play

1290
01:09:43,600 --> 01:09:45,799
Speaker 1: where we all say the right shibboleths and so everyone

1291
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:48,639
Speaker 1: likes us. And that's the actual truth here, right, That's

1292
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:50,640
Speaker 1: the thing that's honest about it is Like, man, it

1293
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: was all of this talk for everyone. That's the entire

1294
01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: this Miscastell motherfucker. The only reason his effective altruism thing

1295
01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:00,639
Speaker 1: exists as a funded thing is as a fucking shibba

1296
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:03,479
Speaker 1: left for billionaires who don't want to pay taxes and

1297
01:10:03,520 --> 01:10:06,040
Speaker 1: want to let the world crumble around them. Will sucking

1298
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 1: as much value out of the working class as they

1299
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: can and want to pretend like their heroes at the

1300
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 1: same time, so that people write their dicks and articles

1301
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 1: like that fucking sakoyapies that absolutely fucking ridiculous text. Actually

1302
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 1: is like a very important document. It's incredibly important. It's

1303
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,719
Speaker 1: deeply crucial. I hate that there's such a crucial document

1304
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,120
Speaker 1: that also includes he in it. Yeah, there's nothing to

1305
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:31,200
Speaker 1: be done about that one, Jamie, Look, there's it doesn't

1306
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: feel good, but you know we are previous most important

1307
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:36,679
Speaker 1: document to that effect was an I am that said

1308
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:39,000
Speaker 1: ha ha, So a text with he he is kind

1309
01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 1: of the logical progression that is fascinated. Do you have

1310
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:44,880
Speaker 1: any like insight into like why he would so freely

1311
01:10:44,920 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 1: admit that? Now, I don't. Actually, one of two things

1312
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:51,000
Speaker 1: has to be happening, because again the spoilers, this all

1313
01:10:51,040 --> 01:10:53,719
Speaker 1: falls apart. His exchange goes from worth thirty two billion

1314
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: dollars to worth basically zero dollars. In the space in

1315
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: my head anytime you say, like like twenty four hours

1316
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: this happens, his net worth falls in a day, Um,

1317
01:11:05,200 --> 01:11:07,599
Speaker 1: like it is it all because they realized that all

1318
01:11:07,640 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 1: of the money has gone that he'd been taking money

1319
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:11,640
Speaker 1: from one business and using to gamble in another, and

1320
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:13,760
Speaker 1: also to pay him and his friends, and all of

1321
01:11:13,800 --> 01:11:16,160
Speaker 1: the money that the investors had put in when they

1322
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 1: tried to withdraw it, like the their money that was

1323
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 1: supposed to be in there on paper, none of the

1324
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,360
Speaker 1: money existed because again he had stolen it um anyway,

1325
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,080
Speaker 1: the context of this article makes it clear that he

1326
01:11:28,120 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 1: felt like, I don't know whatever. This was all the

1327
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,439
Speaker 1: confidence game, right, that's the key all of this could work,

1328
01:11:34,479 --> 01:11:36,559
Speaker 1: and the balance because people were looking at their balance. Shee,

1329
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:38,800
Speaker 1: I'm making money. I'm making money. The returns are great.

1330
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:42,120
Speaker 1: And that money existed on paper until they tried to

1331
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,439
Speaker 1: take it out because then it actually wasn't there because

1332
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:47,960
Speaker 1: he had already frittered it away. It's a confidence game,

1333
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: and we have an you know that's the way it

1334
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:53,960
Speaker 1: actually worked. We also know and this is all still

1335
01:11:53,960 --> 01:11:55,600
Speaker 1: coming out, so I'm not gonna get too much into it,

1336
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 1: but we know that he had f t X loan himself.

1337
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 1: Sam BigMan freed about a billion dollars, Like his paper

1338
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:05,160
Speaker 1: value was like two billion, but he gave himself basically

1339
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:08,639
Speaker 1: a billion dollars in other people's money. Um, although he

1340
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: may have gambled that away. It's really unclear how much

1341
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 1: money he actually has liquid at the moment um do

1342
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:19,400
Speaker 1: we think he has any I have no idea either either.

1343
01:12:19,520 --> 01:12:22,520
Speaker 1: He was like actually a gambling addict and a narcissist

1344
01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,280
Speaker 1: and he really did lose it all or this was

1345
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,759
Speaker 1: a con from the beginning, knowing it would all collapse,

1346
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: and he got as much as he could out of it,

1347
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 1: and he's going to wind up someplace without extradition, right like,

1348
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:32,640
Speaker 1: and that was the goal. If you asked me a

1349
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:34,479
Speaker 1: couple of years ago, I would have said it's the latter.

1350
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,040
Speaker 1: But I feel like the last couple of years have

1351
01:12:36,080 --> 01:12:39,080
Speaker 1: demonstrated so often that like people are just straight up

1352
01:12:39,120 --> 01:12:41,040
Speaker 1: not smart and don't have a plan, and it is

1353
01:12:41,080 --> 01:12:44,479
Speaker 1: all a narcissist shell game. It's very it's it's un

1354
01:12:45,080 --> 01:12:46,760
Speaker 1: at the moment. I'm going to read you some things

1355
01:12:46,800 --> 01:12:48,479
Speaker 1: at the end here and you can kind of make

1356
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:52,200
Speaker 1: your anyway. Whatever. So after you know, starting FTX, the

1357
01:12:52,200 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 1: company moves to Hong Kong and then the Bahamas and

1358
01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:57,639
Speaker 1: they use they buy these very like a thirty nine

1359
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:59,920
Speaker 1: million dollar mansion that he lives in with his friends

1360
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 1: using FTX tokens, which is like internal cash that his

1361
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,000
Speaker 1: company issues based on the perceived value of the company.

1362
01:13:07,360 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 1: They don't know how many rooms is that it's a shipload,

1363
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:13,600
Speaker 1: and and they're able to buy it because everything's like

1364
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,160
Speaker 1: their paper on paper. They've gone from nothing to worth

1365
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:18,559
Speaker 1: thirty two billion dollars in like a year or two.

1366
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 1: And these these idiots, like property owners in the Bahamas,

1367
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: are like, well, clearly, the best thing we could do

1368
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:27,879
Speaker 1: is by this building using the fake money they created

1369
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:29,920
Speaker 1: for their own company that they tell us is worth

1370
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:34,840
Speaker 1: a lot of money. This is worth it. Um. So

1371
01:13:35,520 --> 01:13:39,400
Speaker 1: since everything collapsed, some people that SPF had like reached

1372
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,639
Speaker 1: out to as early investors have commented about why they

1373
01:13:42,680 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: didn't invest in this company in the early days, and

1374
01:13:45,160 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: most of them it's because, like what they could see

1375
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:49,679
Speaker 1: of his investments, the tens of millions that he promised

1376
01:13:49,680 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 1: to charities in the long positions in risky cryptocurrent companies

1377
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:55,120
Speaker 1: didn't make sense. They would look at like the things

1378
01:13:55,120 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 1: he was buying with the company assets and the things

1379
01:13:57,880 --> 01:13:59,840
Speaker 1: that like he was investing in and be like, well,

1380
01:13:59,840 --> 01:14:02,200
Speaker 1: there's no way he could have that kind of liquidity

1381
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:05,040
Speaker 1: if this is a legitimate exchange right, he can't have

1382
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:08,080
Speaker 1: that kind of cash on hand. It doesn't make any sense.

1383
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: Rich fucking assholes always telling themselves like that, that's funny.

1384
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 1: And what's funny is that, like I found one of

1385
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,240
Speaker 1: these guys who like, yeah, I didn't invest because I

1386
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: could tell it was a con and then was like,

1387
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:20,680
Speaker 1: but I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want to

1388
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 1: get yelled at. That's unfortunately. I do see myself that

1389
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: statement a little bit where I was like, oh, someone

1390
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:35,720
Speaker 1: might be someone might send me a rude text. I

1391
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:40,880
Speaker 1: guess I will this. Yeah, oh my god, it's very fine,

1392
01:14:41,520 --> 01:14:44,519
Speaker 1: goofy bullshit. I don't I'll tell you one thing, Jamie.

1393
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:49,000
Speaker 1: He's a spineless guy who still has his fucking money. Wow,

1394
01:14:49,040 --> 01:14:54,599
Speaker 1: you're in love with him? That's what. Yeah, you know whatever.

1395
01:14:54,680 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: It's the finance industry. They're all ghoules from what we

1396
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 1: can actually tell now, because again, this fucking Captain Dick writer,

1397
01:15:05,200 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 1: the bad writer, Like, I have to read you another

1398
01:15:08,920 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 1: quote that I didn't have in my script to give

1399
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 1: you an idea of just how much he fucking how

1400
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 1: much he loves SBF. Here's a quote, um from him.

1401
01:15:20,320 --> 01:15:24,639
Speaker 1: Uh okay, yeah, this is this is actually, Jamie, oh boy,

1402
01:15:26,000 --> 01:15:28,559
Speaker 1: this is when this is when, this is when, this

1403
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:31,360
Speaker 1: is when the writer Captain Dick writer is hanging out

1404
01:15:31,400 --> 01:15:34,560
Speaker 1: with him in the Bahamas at his office quote, and

1405
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 1: he's like, what if we kissed? Sensing an opportunity for connection,

1406
01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:41,040
Speaker 1: I chip in with my own two satoshi, which is

1407
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,000
Speaker 1: two cents but a bitcoin term. Anyway, I'm going to

1408
01:15:45,200 --> 01:15:48,559
Speaker 1: walk into the ocean. Wow. Okay. I don't pay any

1409
01:15:48,560 --> 01:15:51,040
Speaker 1: attention to social media. Not because I have any moral

1410
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:53,639
Speaker 1: case against it, I say, but because for me, reading

1411
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:55,519
Speaker 1: books is the highest band with way I know to

1412
01:15:55,560 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 1: get quality information into my brain, which just craves the

1413
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 1: stimulation I'm addicted to reading, which explains how I ended

1414
01:16:01,040 --> 01:16:04,760
Speaker 1: up being a writer. Oh yeah, said SPS say, SPF,

1415
01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:07,160
Speaker 1: I would never read a book. I'm not sure what

1416
01:16:07,280 --> 01:16:10,479
Speaker 1: to say. I've read a book a week from I

1417
01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 1: hate them both because I'm not sure what to say.

1418
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,200
Speaker 1: I read a book a week for my entire adult life,

1419
01:16:15,240 --> 01:16:17,840
Speaker 1: and I have written three of my own. I'm very

1420
01:16:17,840 --> 01:16:20,040
Speaker 1: skeptical of books. I don't want to say no book

1421
01:16:20,080 --> 01:16:22,240
Speaker 1: is ever worth reading, but I actually do believe something

1422
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 1: pretty close to that explains SPF. I think if you

1423
01:16:24,960 --> 01:16:26,720
Speaker 1: wrote a book you fucked up and it should have

1424
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:32,280
Speaker 1: been a six paragraph blog post. Those guys writing word

1425
01:16:32,360 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 1: article that he will not read. It's like two guys

1426
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:40,839
Speaker 1: whose heads are made out of rocks, just like clunking

1427
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 1: against each other repeatedly. Just just wait, Jamie, Jamie. It

1428
01:16:45,240 --> 01:16:47,599
Speaker 1: has it hasn't gotten as bad as it's going to get.

1429
01:16:49,000 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 1: Whatever the case, I hate books. Whatever the case, I

1430
01:16:52,560 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 1: find myself sad for the man, And it occurs to

1431
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:58,160
Speaker 1: me that my reaction is exactly what might be expected

1432
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 1: from a beta in the brave New world Old Crypto

1433
01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:05,320
Speaker 1: is creating. Whoa how can you write that and not

1434
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,719
Speaker 1: leap off the top of the building He literally self

1435
01:17:08,760 --> 01:17:12,320
Speaker 1: identified as a beta to also, just like what I

1436
01:17:12,439 --> 01:17:14,280
Speaker 1: love about this is just like what we have to

1437
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:16,519
Speaker 1: take it. We have to take it as given that

1438
01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:18,640
Speaker 1: Crypto is creating a brave new world and none of

1439
01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:21,240
Speaker 1: us has any choice in that. It's inevitable, it's unstoppable.

1440
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 1: It's going to dominate everything, which is like capitulate to

1441
01:17:24,280 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 1: our Yeah, so I think again, what I wonder does

1442
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:31,439
Speaker 1: he think? I think? Wouldn't someone with i Q points

1443
01:17:31,479 --> 01:17:34,920
Speaker 1: to spare realized that dismissing books, all books is essentially worthless?

1444
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,439
Speaker 1: Might rile a writer? Was he playing with me? Is

1445
01:17:37,479 --> 01:17:40,320
Speaker 1: this fun? Is this humor? I'm satisfied with my meta

1446
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 1: analysis until I realized that one can always increment the

1447
01:17:43,280 --> 01:17:45,880
Speaker 1: level of strategic play in this sort of game. It's

1448
01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:48,080
Speaker 1: like poker. Level one is just thinking about how to

1449
01:17:48,120 --> 01:17:50,479
Speaker 1: strengthen your own hand. Level two is thinking about what

1450
01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:52,800
Speaker 1: your opponent's hand is. Level three is thinking about what

1451
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 1: your opponent thinks your hand is, and so on. And

1452
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 1: since SPF is obviously a genius, I should simply assume

1453
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,960
Speaker 1: that compared with me, SPF will always be playing at

1454
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,320
Speaker 1: level in plus one, which was making which makes my

1455
01:18:03,400 --> 01:18:06,439
Speaker 1: analysis of the intent behind SPS books for losers idea

1456
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 1: spiral into infinity and crash like a computer like it

1457
01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,719
Speaker 1: was how you write about me and your diary? No, Jamie,

1458
01:18:14,800 --> 01:18:17,799
Speaker 1: because do you know what the only ethical speaking of ethics,

1459
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:21,000
Speaker 1: you know what, if you think this way about conversations,

1460
01:18:21,240 --> 01:18:24,240
Speaker 1: the ethical thing to do is fill your pockets with

1461
01:18:24,360 --> 01:18:29,679
Speaker 1: rocks and walk into the ocean. Wow, you're wolfing this guy. Yeah,

1462
01:18:29,840 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 1: I absolutely am him and Sam Bankman Free. I could

1463
01:18:34,360 --> 01:18:37,800
Speaker 1: not hate these people more. I mean, they're both there.

1464
01:18:38,200 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 1: There's never been two wronger people having a conversation, and

1465
01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:44,240
Speaker 1: of course it came out. He's just like, well, obviously

1466
01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:46,320
Speaker 1: he's a genius. We have to assume that because he

1467
01:18:46,360 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 1: became a billionaire. So and he's like, no, he was

1468
01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:51,599
Speaker 1: never a billion There his defense, that's math he did

1469
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:55,240
Speaker 1: to balance sheet, Like we've now gotten access because he

1470
01:18:55,280 --> 01:18:57,719
Speaker 1: had to like go to the bankruptcy and step down.

1471
01:18:57,840 --> 01:19:00,000
Speaker 1: So like there's a caretaker trying to get people's money

1472
01:19:00,000 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 1: out of the company, and we know ship like we've

1473
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:04,639
Speaker 1: seen the Excel files where they kept their financial records,

1474
01:19:04,840 --> 01:19:07,760
Speaker 1: and it's him being like, this is basically bullshit, Like,

1475
01:19:07,800 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 1: sorry about this, we funck this up. We weren't actually

1476
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,280
Speaker 1: keeping records here the company balance sheet. There was no

1477
01:19:13,360 --> 01:19:17,880
Speaker 1: accounting department. People would file there, like like when they

1478
01:19:17,920 --> 01:19:20,439
Speaker 1: would spend hundreds tens and hundreds of millions of dollars

1479
01:19:20,479 --> 01:19:23,040
Speaker 1: and things, they would just message each other on signal

1480
01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: about it to get approval and had deleted deleted messages

1481
01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:28,559
Speaker 1: on so there's actually like no record of a lot

1482
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:31,080
Speaker 1: of the accounting they did. At one point hier and

1483
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:34,160
Speaker 1: outside accounting firm to handle their accounting of this thirty

1484
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 1: two billion dollar company and the firm they hired is

1485
01:19:37,120 --> 01:19:41,440
Speaker 1: the first builds itself as the only metaverse based accounting firm.

1486
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:46,479
Speaker 1: Um His the accounting firm for this thirty two billion

1487
01:19:46,520 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 1: dollar company, exists entirely within a crypto themed video game

1488
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:56,440
Speaker 1: called decentral Land. Um. It is so futpid with everything

1489
01:19:56,479 --> 01:19:59,400
Speaker 1: you're saying. Okay, so this is really this is bad

1490
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:03,960
Speaker 1: and this field bad to hear Um, I have a question, Yes,

1491
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 1: Jamie Um, who is I guess because I am I

1492
01:20:08,400 --> 01:20:11,280
Speaker 1: am kind of back in in Lizzy holmes Land because

1493
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:14,639
Speaker 1: that whole last I mean, like departments that should be,

1494
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,880
Speaker 1: you know, taking care of ship don't even exist, which

1495
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:24,760
Speaker 1: is very farops adjacent to me parasian if you will.

1496
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:27,720
Speaker 1: As with both written books, we can just make up

1497
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 1: for Yeah, of course, yeah, that's that's mostly what writing

1498
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,040
Speaker 1: a book is. For sure. I view myself as the

1499
01:20:33,080 --> 01:20:35,479
Speaker 1: beta of this conversation, and so I feel comfortable asking

1500
01:20:35,680 --> 01:20:41,559
Speaker 1: Robert Um who is ultimately affected by this, Like what

1501
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:47,080
Speaker 1: is the like trickle down of this what happens? Um?

1502
01:20:47,240 --> 01:20:53,280
Speaker 1: Is it just other rich assholes or it doesn't affect regularly?

1503
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:57,760
Speaker 1: Like does it affect Probably there will presumably be some

1504
01:20:58,280 --> 01:21:00,719
Speaker 1: here's the thing, and here's why there's that lawsuit against

1505
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 1: like Larry David and all those other guys who appeared

1506
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:06,680
Speaker 1: to the ft X. AD. Yeah, presumably a bunch of

1507
01:21:06,720 --> 01:21:09,800
Speaker 1: regular people got suckered into putting their money on ft X,

1508
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:13,040
Speaker 1: and those people have probably lost some money. That said,

1509
01:21:13,640 --> 01:21:16,400
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's fine because most of the

1510
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:20,599
Speaker 1: people who lost money are like gamblers who probably suck

1511
01:21:20,680 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: as much as this guy did. Um. And it's one

1512
01:21:23,400 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 1: of those things. There's just an article I think at

1513
01:21:25,400 --> 01:21:28,519
Speaker 1: Financial Times where someone's like, actually, and I think they

1514
01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 1: actually had a good point. We shouldn't regulate the crypto

1515
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:33,800
Speaker 1: industry because if we regulated, it will be brought in

1516
01:21:33,840 --> 01:21:36,559
Speaker 1: closer to the actual financial industry as it exists, and

1517
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 1: banks will put more investments into crypto and it will

1518
01:21:39,160 --> 01:21:41,280
Speaker 1: get seen as like legitimate and backed by the state.

1519
01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 1: And so when these conmen destroyed tens of billions of

1520
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:46,800
Speaker 1: dollars overnight and cause panic in the industry, it will

1521
01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:49,559
Speaker 1: affect the real economy. And right now it doesn't seem

1522
01:21:49,640 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: to And like, yeah, I guess that is kid, that's

1523
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:54,280
Speaker 1: not a bad point. Maybe we just let it die

1524
01:21:54,360 --> 01:21:57,080
Speaker 1: on its own. I don't know. Um, And it seems

1525
01:21:57,120 --> 01:22:01,360
Speaker 1: so more like, well we'll know more. So, yeah, we

1526
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:03,639
Speaker 1: will continue to learn more. One of the things that's

1527
01:22:03,640 --> 01:22:06,280
Speaker 1: funny is about this is that Sequoia, this investment firm,

1528
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 1: put like two hundred million dollars into the company, which

1529
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:11,120
Speaker 1: they have all written off. Now they're accepting it as

1530
01:22:11,160 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 1: a total loss. They're going full that girl on this. Okay, Now,

1531
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:19,120
Speaker 1: when you hear this very serious investment firm put two

1532
01:22:19,240 --> 01:22:22,880
Speaker 1: hundred million dollars into this business, you probably assume Jamie wow,

1533
01:22:22,920 --> 01:22:25,639
Speaker 1: I bet he had a good pitch, right, I actually

1534
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:27,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if we're talking Sarin knows. I actually

1535
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:30,439
Speaker 1: don't think that that is. That's not just qualifying to

1536
01:22:30,439 --> 01:22:33,120
Speaker 1: have a dogshit pitch. You know. You know who can

1537
01:22:33,160 --> 01:22:36,639
Speaker 1: make this clear for us is Captain Dick Ryder. Thanks

1538
01:22:37,439 --> 01:22:40,439
Speaker 1: SPF told Sequoia about the so called super app. I

1539
01:22:40,439 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: want FTX to be a place where you can do

1540
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:44,719
Speaker 1: anything you want with your next dollar. You can buy bitcoin,

1541
01:22:44,840 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 1: you can send money in whatever currency to any friend

1542
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:49,320
Speaker 1: anywhere in the world. You can buy a banana. You

1543
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:51,320
Speaker 1: can do anything with you you want with your money

1544
01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:58,720
Speaker 1: from inside f t X. Suddenly the chat Yeah, I

1545
01:22:58,760 --> 01:23:00,920
Speaker 1: don't know, I feel like I can do anything I

1546
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 1: want with my debit card, Like I've never run into

1547
01:23:04,560 --> 01:23:06,720
Speaker 1: a thing I wanted to buy and been like, ah,

1548
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:11,760
Speaker 1: I cannot know how do I even buy drugs with it?

1549
01:23:11,800 --> 01:23:14,360
Speaker 1: By going to an A t M. If I were

1550
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:16,400
Speaker 1: to be a person who buys drugs, which I'm not,

1551
01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 1: I could go to an A t M and take

1552
01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:21,840
Speaker 1: out cash and purchase support your local drug dealer and

1553
01:23:22,000 --> 01:23:27,160
Speaker 1: banana vendor for crying out so he gives this banana

1554
01:23:27,200 --> 01:23:30,760
Speaker 1: pitch quote. Suddenly, the chat window on Sequoia's side of

1555
01:23:30,760 --> 01:23:34,879
Speaker 1: the zoom lights up with partners freaking out. I love this, founder,

1556
01:23:34,960 --> 01:23:37,400
Speaker 1: typed one partner, I am a tin out of tin

1557
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:42,760
Speaker 1: pinned another Yes, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point, exclaimed

1558
01:23:42,760 --> 01:23:45,799
Speaker 1: a third. What Sequoia was reacting to was the scale

1559
01:23:45,800 --> 01:23:48,720
Speaker 1: of SPFS vision. It wasn't a story about how we

1560
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,920
Speaker 1: might use fintech in the future, or crypto crypto or

1561
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:53,960
Speaker 1: a new kind of bank. It was a vision about

1562
01:23:53,960 --> 01:23:57,000
Speaker 1: the future of money itself, with a total addressable market

1563
01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:59,800
Speaker 1: of every person on the entire planet. I sit tin

1564
01:24:00,200 --> 01:24:03,559
Speaker 1: from him, and I know it's These people are just

1565
01:24:03,960 --> 01:24:07,840
Speaker 1: actually like three executives doing lines of coke and once

1566
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:12,559
Speaker 1: swallowing a banana with the peel still on. They're like, yes, yep,

1567
01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:18,320
Speaker 1: oh my god. Okay, so it's I mean, which does

1568
01:24:18,400 --> 01:24:20,599
Speaker 1: kind of continue with the trend of like, you know,

1569
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:23,960
Speaker 1: as as b F has never had a problem or

1570
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:27,440
Speaker 1: a like anything to overcome, Like if it's this easy

1571
01:24:27,520 --> 01:24:30,599
Speaker 1: for him to con people into ship, like, of course

1572
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,639
Speaker 1: you would have a god complex. You've never you've never

1573
01:24:33,680 --> 01:24:39,519
Speaker 1: been told no, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. It's cool.

1574
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:43,040
Speaker 1: So what Sequoia was? Yeah, sorry, I have to continue

1575
01:24:43,080 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 1: this this fucking quote. And next he's going to talk

1576
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:47,479
Speaker 1: about a person who works at Sequoia and is in

1577
01:24:47,479 --> 01:24:49,760
Speaker 1: the room for this. I sent ten ft from him

1578
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: and I walked over thinking, oh shit, that was really good.

1579
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:56,719
Speaker 1: Remembers Aurora. And it turns out that fucker was playing

1580
01:24:56,800 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: League of Legends through the entire meeting. And this is

1581
01:25:00,040 --> 01:25:02,439
Speaker 1: framed in the article and in all the coverage before

1582
01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 1: everything fell apart. It's like, so awesome, He's so cool.

1583
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 1: This writer talks a bunch about how like Sam never

1584
01:25:08,240 --> 01:25:10,760
Speaker 1: stops playing video games when he's talking to this writer,

1585
01:25:10,840 --> 01:25:13,839
Speaker 1: when he's having corporate meetings, he's playing video games. Basically,

1586
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:16,640
Speaker 1: a hundred percent of the time. Um, and this has

1587
01:25:16,640 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 1: always mentioned like he's always working, He's always in the office,

1588
01:25:19,439 --> 01:25:21,519
Speaker 1: he sleeps in a beanbag chair at his desk, and

1589
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:24,880
Speaker 1: it's like, no, dude, he's not always working. He's conning you.

1590
01:25:25,160 --> 01:25:28,320
Speaker 1: And he plays video games all the time and pretends

1591
01:25:28,360 --> 01:25:31,719
Speaker 1: that that's a fucking job. Um, which is great, great

1592
01:25:31,760 --> 01:25:34,920
Speaker 1: con good for you always working in always They're two

1593
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:39,640
Speaker 1: very different flavors of things happen exactly. Um, it's all

1594
01:25:39,760 --> 01:25:41,760
Speaker 1: part of the fucking con So is the fact that

1595
01:25:41,800 --> 01:25:44,639
Speaker 1: he always he always were like ratty old athletic shorts

1596
01:25:44,680 --> 01:25:47,960
Speaker 1: and like a wrinkled T shirt. Because like that's if

1597
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 1: you are a young man in the tech industry, that

1598
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:52,960
Speaker 1: makes people think you're a genius, right, because genius is

1599
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:56,920
Speaker 1: dressed like shit. Yeah, he's like, now, if I bring

1600
01:25:56,960 --> 01:26:00,719
Speaker 1: a real stink into their people are gonna like jack

1601
01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:05,360
Speaker 1: up my already fake i Q score about twenty points. Yeah,

1602
01:26:05,560 --> 01:26:07,559
Speaker 1: and it's what you know who else dresses like ship

1603
01:26:08,040 --> 01:26:13,840
Speaker 1: the guy I used to buy weed from. Yeah, yeah,

1604
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:17,160
Speaker 1: you know who? Also? You know who wears the same

1605
01:26:17,160 --> 01:26:20,679
Speaker 1: outfit of Sam Bankman Freed, my old buddy who once

1606
01:26:20,720 --> 01:26:22,639
Speaker 1: at a party got into an argument with the guy

1607
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:25,240
Speaker 1: and broke fifteen bones in his face because they were

1608
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:31,639
Speaker 1: both drinking. Not a corporate genius. I do like that

1609
01:26:31,680 --> 01:26:34,280
Speaker 1: shared aesthetic where it's like, really the difference is the

1610
01:26:34,280 --> 01:26:37,960
Speaker 1: pet snake, that is that's the that's that's how you

1611
01:26:38,000 --> 01:26:46,080
Speaker 1: truly can sniff out the africa he's based. He's the

1612
01:26:46,080 --> 01:26:48,559
Speaker 1: same kind of person as Elizabeth Holmes and he was

1613
01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:50,920
Speaker 1: again he's a confidence man, and this gets us into

1614
01:26:50,960 --> 01:26:53,680
Speaker 1: the Larry David ship because the thing about being a

1615
01:26:53,680 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 1: confidence man is that as long as people are convinced

1616
01:26:56,600 --> 01:26:59,080
Speaker 1: there's money, their money is safe and most of them

1617
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:01,360
Speaker 1: don't try to pull it out, then you can keep

1618
01:27:01,400 --> 01:27:04,440
Speaker 1: the con going, and you can keep the fake numbers increasing,

1619
01:27:04,520 --> 01:27:06,519
Speaker 1: and you everyone will think you're richer and you can

1620
01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 1: actually get real money out of this. So one of

1621
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:11,360
Speaker 1: the things that he did is he would pour shiploads

1622
01:27:11,360 --> 01:27:15,120
Speaker 1: of money into sponsorship deals and to other ventures to

1623
01:27:15,160 --> 01:27:18,519
Speaker 1: make his company seem legit. One way he did this, Yeah,

1624
01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:21,160
Speaker 1: he spent seventeen and a half million through FTX to

1625
01:27:21,240 --> 01:27:24,000
Speaker 1: sponsor the athletic teams that you see Berkeley. Uh. He

1626
01:27:24,080 --> 01:27:26,759
Speaker 1: launched a twenty million dollar ad campaign with Tom Brady

1627
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:29,160
Speaker 1: and just sell Bunchen. He offered n F T s

1628
01:27:29,200 --> 01:27:32,439
Speaker 1: at coach uh huh, And he spent a hundred and

1629
01:27:32,479 --> 01:27:34,840
Speaker 1: thirty five million dollars on the naming rights for the

1630
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:37,639
Speaker 1: Miami Heats Home arena. And the purpose this is all

1631
01:27:37,680 --> 01:27:40,080
Speaker 1: to build confidence, right you see, you see it's the

1632
01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:42,200
Speaker 1: It's the same thing Crypto dot Com did, by the

1633
01:27:42,200 --> 01:27:43,880
Speaker 1: way with the arena, and I want to say, I

1634
01:27:43,920 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 1: was like, I feel like the Crypto dot Com arena

1635
01:27:46,560 --> 01:27:49,400
Speaker 1: is not long for this world, and you should I

1636
01:27:49,520 --> 01:27:52,479
Speaker 1: don't recognize that as an act. Is my money safe

1637
01:27:52,520 --> 01:27:55,040
Speaker 1: in this thing that's a bank but not a bank?

1638
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:58,479
Speaker 1: Well their name is on the arena, so it's probably legit.

1639
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, is like, yeah, it's like now walking

1640
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:04,120
Speaker 1: into the Crypto dot Com area arena, I couldn't feel

1641
01:28:04,160 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 1: less safe. I couldn't feel less secure. Like when it

1642
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:10,040
Speaker 1: was the Staple Center. I'm like, oh, you know what's

1643
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:13,479
Speaker 1: never going to go out of style? Little notebooks. People

1644
01:28:13,560 --> 01:28:17,479
Speaker 1: have been using Staples since we were cavemen. I assume. So, yes,

1645
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:21,040
Speaker 1: technology just like the worst fucking name on earth. But

1646
01:28:21,240 --> 01:28:25,120
Speaker 1: it infuriates me these people. So if he has a

1647
01:28:25,200 --> 01:28:28,679
Speaker 1: dog in the fight, I do In his interview with Vox,

1648
01:28:28,880 --> 01:28:32,640
Speaker 1: Sam basically admits this, albeit in a slightly careful way.

1649
01:28:32,960 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 1: Journalist so, f t X technically wasn't gambling with their money.

1650
01:28:36,280 --> 01:28:38,120
Speaker 1: F t X had just loaned their money to Alameda,

1651
01:28:38,160 --> 01:28:40,920
Speaker 1: who hadn't, who had gambled with their money and lost it.

1652
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 1: And you didn't realize it was a big deal because

1653
01:28:43,000 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 1: you didn't realize how much money it was. Same response.

1654
01:28:45,880 --> 01:28:48,960
Speaker 1: And also, I thought Alameda had enough collateral to reasonably

1655
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:51,720
Speaker 1: cover it. Journalist says, I get how you could have

1656
01:28:51,760 --> 01:28:53,679
Speaker 1: gotten away with it, but I guess that seems sketchy.

1657
01:28:53,680 --> 01:28:56,120
Speaker 1: Even if you get away with it, Sam, it was

1658
01:28:56,160 --> 01:29:00,760
Speaker 1: never the intention. Sometimes life creeps up on you, um

1659
01:29:00,960 --> 01:29:05,679
Speaker 1: so literally that life comes at you fast. So Sam's

1660
01:29:05,880 --> 01:29:08,679
Speaker 1: worth taps at around twenty two billion dollars on paper.

1661
01:29:08,920 --> 01:29:12,080
Speaker 1: In reality, neither Alameda nor ft X had ever taken

1662
01:29:12,080 --> 01:29:14,519
Speaker 1: and even close to that much money. The valuation was

1663
01:29:14,560 --> 01:29:18,479
Speaker 1: based entirely on nonsense calculations that were themselves based on

1664
01:29:18,600 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 1: lies from ft X. Is extremely cooked books. There's a

1665
01:29:21,400 --> 01:29:23,479
Speaker 1: lot more about this than we're getting into. People are

1666
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:25,800
Speaker 1: still finding this all out. There's one thing I should

1667
01:29:25,800 --> 01:29:29,200
Speaker 1: probably read, which is, so you know when his company collapsed,

1668
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 1: he had to step down from running it, right, And

1669
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:34,000
Speaker 1: because a lot of money is still in there and

1670
01:29:34,040 --> 01:29:36,479
Speaker 1: a lot of like investments are still tight up in that,

1671
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:40,400
Speaker 1: they put a guy in charge of the company again, right.

1672
01:29:40,479 --> 01:29:43,759
Speaker 1: And there's like there's specific dudes in the business world,

1673
01:29:44,280 --> 01:29:47,280
Speaker 1: um whose like job is to come in when a

1674
01:29:47,320 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 1: company fucks up like this and like try and get

1675
01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:53,400
Speaker 1: as much money back out for the shareholders as possible

1676
01:29:53,439 --> 01:29:56,639
Speaker 1: to minimize the bleeding. So they kind of have like

1677
01:29:56,680 --> 01:29:59,880
Speaker 1: a like how they had like old Hollywood, they have

1678
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,240
Speaker 1: like a fixer guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they have. And

1679
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 1: this is this fixer guy specifically, he is the guy

1680
01:30:05,439 --> 01:30:08,519
Speaker 1: that they brought in, um when in Ron, he took

1681
01:30:08,560 --> 01:30:10,920
Speaker 1: over in Ron after it fell apart in order to

1682
01:30:10,960 --> 01:30:13,640
Speaker 1: try and like minimize the damage from it. So he

1683
01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:15,479
Speaker 1: is the guy who got brought in to deal with

1684
01:30:15,520 --> 01:30:19,679
Speaker 1: like the fact that this massive fucking crime happened with Enron.

1685
01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:23,479
Speaker 1: UM one sec. My my favorite, um, my favorite en

1686
01:30:23,560 --> 01:30:29,360
Speaker 1: Run memory not that you asked, um, was the women

1687
01:30:29,439 --> 01:30:32,439
Speaker 1: of Enron playboy spread that I got too archived during

1688
01:30:32,479 --> 01:30:35,880
Speaker 1: my time there. Oh god boy, did those en Ron

1689
01:30:35,960 --> 01:30:40,559
Speaker 1: girl bosses have their there? So the second only two

1690
01:30:40,600 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 1: women of seven eleven, which is my actual favorite spread

1691
01:30:43,400 --> 01:30:47,240
Speaker 1: continue first option. This company has about a million creditors,

1692
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:50,799
Speaker 1: so about a million people possibly lost their entire investment

1693
01:30:50,800 --> 01:30:52,679
Speaker 1: in this company, which is a stunning amount of people

1694
01:30:52,720 --> 01:30:56,320
Speaker 1: to take money from um. And again, we're probably we

1695
01:30:56,360 --> 01:30:58,599
Speaker 1: are probably looking at like five or ten billion dollars

1696
01:30:58,760 --> 01:31:01,519
Speaker 1: stolen something like that. Kind of unclear the exact amount,

1697
01:31:01,680 --> 01:31:04,120
Speaker 1: but anyway, this is what the guy in the Delaware

1698
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:07,120
Speaker 1: bankruptcy court filing. This is what the guy who was

1699
01:31:07,560 --> 01:31:10,719
Speaker 1: the guy who took over in Ron after it became

1700
01:31:10,760 --> 01:31:12,920
Speaker 1: clear that the whole company was a criminal enterprise. This

1701
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:16,400
Speaker 1: is what that guy wrote about Sam's company. Oh no,

1702
01:31:17,040 --> 01:31:19,840
Speaker 1: never in my career have I seen such a complete

1703
01:31:19,880 --> 01:31:23,000
Speaker 1: failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of

1704
01:31:23,040 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 1: trustworthy financial information as occurred here. From compromise systems integrity

1705
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:31,240
Speaker 1: and faulty regulatory oversight abroad to the concentration of control

1706
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:34,920
Speaker 1: in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, unsophisticated,

1707
01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:40,160
Speaker 1: and potentially compromised individuals, this situation is unprecedented. Again, that's

1708
01:31:40,200 --> 01:31:44,880
Speaker 1: the guy who took over in Ron, literally like Bill

1709
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,280
Speaker 1: Clinton dropping a notes post, being like never have I

1710
01:31:48,320 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 1: seen a more cheated on my wife? And like, well,

1711
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:57,000
Speaker 1: I will say it's different. This guy did not commit

1712
01:31:57,040 --> 01:31:58,840
Speaker 1: any of the iron crimes, right, this is the guy

1713
01:31:58,880 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 1: who comes saw them all. This guy is after he's

1714
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:08,719
Speaker 1: brought in it becomes clear that none never in my career.

1715
01:32:09,040 --> 01:32:11,680
Speaker 1: This guy, Yeah, it's probably best to look at this

1716
01:32:11,720 --> 01:32:13,519
Speaker 1: guy is like an E M. T. When it becomes

1717
01:32:13,520 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 1: clear that a company that has a shipload of money

1718
01:32:16,320 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 1: in it and is central in the economy has collapsed

1719
01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,240
Speaker 1: because people broke the law. He comes in to minimize

1720
01:32:23,280 --> 01:32:26,360
Speaker 1: the damage. But he was not working at in Ron previously, right, Like,

1721
01:32:26,400 --> 01:32:28,439
Speaker 1: it's not he's not trying to like stop anyone from

1722
01:32:28,479 --> 01:32:31,200
Speaker 1: getting in trouble. He's trying to minimize how many people

1723
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:34,920
Speaker 1: are hurt by this anyway. Yeah, um, I just want

1724
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:37,400
Speaker 1: to make clear, like that guy's anyway whatever, he's not.

1725
01:32:37,520 --> 01:32:39,880
Speaker 1: He's not the end he is not the end runner.

1726
01:32:39,960 --> 01:32:42,479
Speaker 1: He did not make in roun bad. He's just was

1727
01:32:42,520 --> 01:32:44,960
Speaker 1: there afterwards and was like this company is even worse.

1728
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:47,839
Speaker 1: He bought the issue of Playboy and then he pushing

1729
01:32:48,240 --> 01:32:50,519
Speaker 1: so I should god, there's yeah, we're we're getting close

1730
01:32:50,560 --> 01:32:53,519
Speaker 1: to done. I should note that before everything collapsed. Sam again,

1731
01:32:53,560 --> 01:32:56,160
Speaker 1: he's in the effect of altruism. He's he's he promised

1732
01:32:56,200 --> 01:32:58,439
Speaker 1: to donate like a couple of hundred million dollars to

1733
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:01,280
Speaker 1: these e A causes. I'll lot less than that actually

1734
01:33:01,280 --> 01:33:04,280
Speaker 1: wound got out. Some of them were good, but a

1735
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:06,799
Speaker 1: lot of it was like So he made a huge

1736
01:33:06,880 --> 01:33:09,120
Speaker 1: point that he was like his one of his major

1737
01:33:09,200 --> 01:33:12,559
Speaker 1: priorities was pandemic prevention. Right, we have to stop the

1738
01:33:12,600 --> 01:33:14,439
Speaker 1: next pandemic. I'm gonna put as much money as i

1739
01:33:14,439 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 1: can to pandemic prevention. That's the best effective altruist thing

1740
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:21,760
Speaker 1: that I can do. Um to talk about how well

1741
01:33:21,800 --> 01:33:23,759
Speaker 1: that actually worked, I want to quote from the Washington

1742
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:27,200
Speaker 1: Post here. Ft X backed projects ranged from a twelve

1743
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:30,280
Speaker 1: million dollars to champion a California ballot initiative to strengthen

1744
01:33:30,320 --> 01:33:34,080
Speaker 1: public health programs and detect emerging virus threats. Amid lackluster support,

1745
01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: the measure was punted four to investing more than eleven

1746
01:33:37,560 --> 01:33:40,920
Speaker 1: million on the unsuccessful congressional primary campaign of an Oregon

1747
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,840
Speaker 1: bio security expert, and even a hundred and fifty thousand

1748
01:33:43,880 --> 01:33:47,320
Speaker 1: dollar grant to help moncleft Slough, the scientific advisor to

1749
01:33:47,360 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 1: the Trump administration's Operation Warp speed vaccine accelerator. Right his memoire.

1750
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:54,599
Speaker 1: So that sounds like a giant waste of money. Right,

1751
01:33:54,720 --> 01:33:57,280
Speaker 1: that sounds like none of it. Even if it was

1752
01:33:57,320 --> 01:33:59,120
Speaker 1: like good, it sounds like it did in the like,

1753
01:33:59,120 --> 01:34:01,960
Speaker 1: even if the goals are good, like well, the ballot

1754
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:04,519
Speaker 1: measure failed, like it got punted, So it's not like

1755
01:34:04,560 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 1: it worked. Um, and it gets worse because SPFS fund

1756
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:10,240
Speaker 1: also put a lot of money, like five million dollars

1757
01:34:10,240 --> 01:34:12,599
Speaker 1: into Pro Publica. And Pro Publica they've done a lot

1758
01:34:12,680 --> 01:34:17,880
Speaker 1: of cool stuff. They also published an extremely flawed investigation

1759
01:34:18,240 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 1: that backed the lab leak hypothesis. Um, I'm gonna the

1760
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:25,120
Speaker 1: l A Times and their analysis of this deeply flawed,

1761
01:34:25,160 --> 01:34:27,680
Speaker 1: flawed piece of reporting. And also, you know, we've got

1762
01:34:27,680 --> 01:34:29,519
Speaker 1: some notes for the l A Times as well. Yes,

1763
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:32,680
Speaker 1: nobody's perfect. The The l A Times called it a

1764
01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:35,479
Speaker 1: train wreck, noting the article is based heavily on Chinese

1765
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 1: language documents that appear to have been mistranslated and misinterpreted,

1766
01:34:39,040 --> 01:34:42,160
Speaker 1: according to Chinese language experts who have piled on via

1767
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:45,120
Speaker 1: social media since its publication. It also takes as gospel

1768
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:47,560
Speaker 1: or a report by a rump group of Republican congressional

1769
01:34:47,560 --> 01:34:50,360
Speaker 1: staff members asserting that the pandemic was more likely than

1770
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:53,080
Speaker 1: not the result of a research related incident. And this

1771
01:34:53,160 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 1: has been the fact that Pro Publica published this has

1772
01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:58,400
Speaker 1: like provided a shipload of fuel to the It was

1773
01:34:58,439 --> 01:35:01,559
Speaker 1: all a fucking lab leak for China. It's China's fault.

1774
01:35:02,160 --> 01:35:07,640
Speaker 1: Um Republicans. Yeah, Sam Bankman Freed funded that ship. Um

1775
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:10,880
Speaker 1: and god yeah, basically none of the ship he was

1776
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:13,000
Speaker 1: putting in money into that was supposed to be good

1777
01:35:13,400 --> 01:35:16,439
Speaker 1: really worked, and a lot of it was. So another

1778
01:35:16,560 --> 01:35:18,280
Speaker 1: thing the right is doing right now is they're talking

1779
01:35:18,320 --> 01:35:20,960
Speaker 1: about he was like the number one or number two

1780
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:26,719
Speaker 1: donor to Democrats during the mid term elections. Seth McFarland. Yeah, yeah,

1781
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:29,479
Speaker 1: but none of his donations worked. And also he gave

1782
01:35:29,520 --> 01:35:31,599
Speaker 1: it was like thirty two million he gave to the DIMS.

1783
01:35:31,640 --> 01:35:34,040
Speaker 1: He gave like twenty four million to the Republicans. And

1784
01:35:34,040 --> 01:35:37,000
Speaker 1: the reason he was giving this money Number one, there

1785
01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:40,680
Speaker 1: were some like pro pandemic response candidates he wanted to back,

1786
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:44,080
Speaker 1: most of whom didn't you know, do well. But also

1787
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:46,920
Speaker 1: like a lot of the money was towards Republican and

1788
01:35:46,960 --> 01:35:50,320
Speaker 1: Democratic candidates who were going to be part of the

1789
01:35:50,320 --> 01:35:52,439
Speaker 1: regulation of the crypto industry because he wanted to have

1790
01:35:52,439 --> 01:35:54,360
Speaker 1: a seat at the table and push regulations in a

1791
01:35:54,400 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 1: way that yeah, that would enable that is yeah exact lee. Um.

1792
01:36:01,479 --> 01:36:04,600
Speaker 1: So anyway, in general, nothing at Alameda or f t

1793
01:36:04,800 --> 01:36:07,280
Speaker 1: X was as it seemed. And that Dick writing Sequoia

1794
01:36:07,400 --> 01:36:11,160
Speaker 1: article Carolyn Ellison, the CEO of Alameda is he talks

1795
01:36:11,200 --> 01:36:14,040
Speaker 1: about her a bit, and like she frames her as

1796
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:17,000
Speaker 1: like this quintessential innocent nerd girl, plucky and ethical and

1797
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:19,519
Speaker 1: optimistic to show like these are the kind of you know,

1798
01:36:19,880 --> 01:36:22,519
Speaker 1: smart young gen z kids that are you know, building

1799
01:36:22,800 --> 01:36:25,600
Speaker 1: this this great company. And like she showed up in

1800
01:36:25,680 --> 01:36:27,960
Speaker 1: Larpe gear to meet with Sam and talk about the

1801
01:36:28,000 --> 01:36:32,479
Speaker 1: future of their great financial enterprise. And she's an ethical altruist. Um.

1802
01:36:32,640 --> 01:36:34,720
Speaker 1: Since everything fell apart, it's come out that she and

1803
01:36:34,760 --> 01:36:37,080
Speaker 1: Sam were dating each other and possibly other members of

1804
01:36:37,120 --> 01:36:42,559
Speaker 1: the company. Um. And also people have found her here

1805
01:36:42,600 --> 01:36:46,799
Speaker 1: we go. People have found her tumbler um, and boy

1806
01:36:47,000 --> 01:36:50,679
Speaker 1: is she's sketchy as hell. Um. I'm gonna quote from

1807
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:55,080
Speaker 1: a report on her tumbler activity and decrypt dot com. Boy, howdy.

1808
01:36:55,360 --> 01:36:57,840
Speaker 1: When I first started my first foray into POLLI I

1809
01:36:57,880 --> 01:36:59,719
Speaker 1: thought of it as a radical break from my trad,

1810
01:36:59,760 --> 01:37:03,439
Speaker 1: pas asked, the account wrote in February, but tbh, I've

1811
01:37:03,479 --> 01:37:05,800
Speaker 1: come to decide that the only acceptable style of polly

1812
01:37:05,880 --> 01:37:09,320
Speaker 1: is at best characterizes something like imperial Chinese harem. The

1813
01:37:09,360 --> 01:37:12,040
Speaker 1: account went on to detail how a polyamorous dynamics should

1814
01:37:12,080 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 1: ideally function as a cutthroat market of sexual competition and subjugation.

1815
01:37:16,560 --> 01:37:19,840
Speaker 1: None of this, none high, non hierarchical bullshit, the account elaborated.

1816
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:22,040
Speaker 1: Everyone should have a ranking of their partners, people should

1817
01:37:22,040 --> 01:37:23,439
Speaker 1: know where they fall in the ranking, and there should

1818
01:37:23,439 --> 01:37:28,080
Speaker 1: be vicious power struggles for the ranks. God, it gets worse, Jamie.

1819
01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 1: The Ellison linked account also demonstrated a substantial preoccupation with

1820
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:36,360
Speaker 1: hb D or human biodiversity, an online euphemism for the

1821
01:37:36,400 --> 01:37:42,000
Speaker 1: discredited fields of race science and eugenics popularized right, oh

1822
01:37:42,040 --> 01:37:44,559
Speaker 1: oh boy, give me one more paragraph and then we

1823
01:37:44,560 --> 01:37:48,280
Speaker 1: can talk about this. Jamie Ellison has for years vocalized

1824
01:37:48,280 --> 01:37:51,320
Speaker 1: her die Heart obsession with Harry Potter, and one post

1825
01:37:51,439 --> 01:37:54,439
Speaker 1: her affiliated Tumbler account tied her love of online character

1826
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:57,559
Speaker 1: chrizz Is Quizzes to her pinshot for sorting Indians by

1827
01:37:57,600 --> 01:38:01,719
Speaker 1: their cast, which she presumed to indicate nedic distinction. Oh

1828
01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:06,759
Speaker 1: my god, it even J. K. Rowling wasn't thinking something

1829
01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 1: that fucked up, and that's really saying something there, someone

1830
01:38:10,160 --> 01:38:16,519
Speaker 1: is amazing astonishing. Tumbler is exclusively for Sherlock fan fiction

1831
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:19,840
Speaker 1: and things that trigger my eating disorder. That's it. I

1832
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:24,599
Speaker 1: cannot like. Oh, that's so dark, it's I almost can't

1833
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:27,719
Speaker 1: fathom it. Right, And again, there's so much. We probably

1834
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:29,360
Speaker 1: will do a follow up at some point because like

1835
01:38:29,600 --> 01:38:31,639
Speaker 1: the fact that the fact that it was this easy

1836
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:34,120
Speaker 1: for like some fucking crypto rage are the ones who

1837
01:38:34,120 --> 01:38:37,599
Speaker 1: reported on it to find her Tumbler where she talks

1838
01:38:37,640 --> 01:38:40,240
Speaker 1: about race science makes me think these guys were all

1839
01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:42,240
Speaker 1: probably into a lot more fucked up ship than they

1840
01:38:42,320 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 1: let on. Yeah, so we'll see, we'll see. I just

1841
01:38:50,560 --> 01:38:54,120
Speaker 1: we don't have the hour for me to decompress the

1842
01:38:54,120 --> 01:38:56,640
Speaker 1: way I need to after hearing that sentence. Specifically, I

1843
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:01,080
Speaker 1: need a cigarette. I'm going to start smoke today. And

1844
01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:04,599
Speaker 1: I hope she's fucking happy. Oh my god, that is

1845
01:39:04,720 --> 01:39:12,800
Speaker 1: that is brutal place to land. Hopefully they're all all

1846
01:39:12,840 --> 01:39:15,759
Speaker 1: of their money's gone, but they probably squirreled away millions

1847
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:18,280
Speaker 1: and stuff for themselves, although at least one of the

1848
01:39:18,360 --> 01:39:20,800
Speaker 1: articles I've read says that, like, his net worth is

1849
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:24,759
Speaker 1: effectively zero now, but I don't think anyone actually knows

1850
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:27,439
Speaker 1: what his net worth is right now, like and how

1851
01:39:27,520 --> 01:39:30,840
Speaker 1: much he got, like his company went from valued at

1852
01:39:30,880 --> 01:39:33,320
Speaker 1: thirty two billion dollars to most recently there's something like

1853
01:39:33,320 --> 01:39:37,880
Speaker 1: six fifty dollars in actual assets left. Um. But I

1854
01:39:37,920 --> 01:39:40,320
Speaker 1: also kind of think he and the others probably have

1855
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:44,800
Speaker 1: millions or tens of millions that they set aside um

1856
01:39:44,840 --> 01:39:48,800
Speaker 1: in shady ways for themselves. Yeah, I mean, well that

1857
01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:53,920
Speaker 1: does sound like what the Beanie Baby's guy would do,

1858
01:39:53,960 --> 01:39:57,040
Speaker 1: and that is my yardstick for morality. That is so

1859
01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:01,439
Speaker 1: um that that is very very scary to uh to consider.

1860
01:40:02,280 --> 01:40:04,920
Speaker 1: I feel like guys like that the thing that is,

1861
01:40:05,400 --> 01:40:07,920
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know whatever you hear about, Like

1862
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:12,080
Speaker 1: it is so karmically satisfying to know that someone like

1863
01:40:12,280 --> 01:40:16,720
Speaker 1: SBF can can be completely bottomed out and like destroyed

1864
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:19,040
Speaker 1: by something like this. But the thing is like when

1865
01:40:19,080 --> 01:40:22,680
Speaker 1: when rich guys like that lose everything, they just come

1866
01:40:22,760 --> 01:40:26,960
Speaker 1: up with worse, more hateful ideas and then come back.

1867
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:29,240
Speaker 1: And that is like always what kind of scares me

1868
01:40:29,280 --> 01:40:34,920
Speaker 1: about that? It is so funny. Um. I don't know, Jamie,

1869
01:40:34,920 --> 01:40:36,640
Speaker 1: I don't know what the solution is. That's not like

1870
01:40:36,680 --> 01:40:39,960
Speaker 1: I want him to have money again. I just you know, what,

1871
01:40:40,240 --> 01:40:43,400
Speaker 1: how can you make someone say less again? I think

1872
01:40:43,439 --> 01:40:49,559
Speaker 1: the podcasters dilemma. Look, here's here's where I'll land on this.

1873
01:40:50,000 --> 01:40:53,320
Speaker 1: You know, I don't think I don't think people should

1874
01:40:53,360 --> 01:40:56,920
Speaker 1: be thrown into cages generally unless there's literally no other

1875
01:40:56,960 --> 01:40:59,439
Speaker 1: way to stop them from harming folks. So and I

1876
01:40:59,479 --> 01:41:02,240
Speaker 1: don't think that's the case with these people. So instead,

1877
01:41:04,840 --> 01:41:09,200
Speaker 1: I think the actual solution is to close from the

1878
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:13,920
Speaker 1: outside all of the doors to that the fucking rich

1879
01:41:14,000 --> 01:41:18,760
Speaker 1: person apartment complex they occupy in that Bahamas development, lock

1880
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:21,840
Speaker 1: it from the outside, and once a week drop in

1881
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:26,040
Speaker 1: food and necessities via a helicopter and never let them

1882
01:41:26,080 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 1: leave or use the internet again. Them all just be

1883
01:41:29,439 --> 01:41:31,919
Speaker 1: with their friends in their in their weird little compound,

1884
01:41:31,920 --> 01:41:35,200
Speaker 1: going increasingly insane with their Chinese harem ship. I don't know.

1885
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:37,360
Speaker 1: I guess that's another kind of prison. But if we

1886
01:41:37,439 --> 01:41:40,960
Speaker 1: film it, we can make money. But then SBF might

1887
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:43,799
Speaker 1: may have to face his worst fear, which is reading

1888
01:41:43,800 --> 01:41:47,799
Speaker 1: a book. Yeah, I guess, Like, like, my serious answer

1889
01:41:47,800 --> 01:41:49,240
Speaker 1: is what do you do to people like this is

1890
01:41:49,320 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 1: you stop them from ever being able to have access

1891
01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:57,280
Speaker 1: to money again, or start companies again, and hopefully eventually

1892
01:41:57,360 --> 01:42:01,040
Speaker 1: they find something to do that actually helps human beings.

1893
01:42:01,120 --> 01:42:04,120
Speaker 1: And it is like like of any kind of use,

1894
01:42:04,479 --> 01:42:06,920
Speaker 1: Like we're going to a a grocery store there, that's a

1895
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:10,000
Speaker 1: real benefit. People need to get food, and people need

1896
01:42:10,160 --> 01:42:14,320
Speaker 1: like that's a respectable, honest way to make a living. Um.

1897
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:16,559
Speaker 1: And if any of these people were to get a

1898
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:19,160
Speaker 1: job working in a safe way, they would be providing

1899
01:42:19,360 --> 01:42:22,400
Speaker 1: an infinitely greater benefit to the human race than they

1900
01:42:22,400 --> 01:42:25,240
Speaker 1: could ever have performed. Perhaps a bit more of that

1901
01:42:25,240 --> 01:42:29,320
Speaker 1: that ethical side of the ethical altruism you're looking. I'll

1902
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:31,400
Speaker 1: be honest. I did not come to the recording today

1903
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:34,080
Speaker 1: with a solution for the prison industrial complex. But I don't.

1904
01:42:34,280 --> 01:42:37,639
Speaker 1: But I still don't like it. Um, I still don't

1905
01:42:37,720 --> 01:42:45,240
Speaker 1: love it. Um. Yeah, yeah, I have no solution. Um,

1906
01:42:45,280 --> 01:42:48,880
Speaker 1: But you know what I do have, Jamie, what you're plug?

1907
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:53,120
Speaker 1: No you don't. I have those? Well you have them,

1908
01:42:53,120 --> 01:42:56,280
Speaker 1: but I'm letting you have them. Oh my god. I mean,

1909
01:42:57,320 --> 01:42:59,479
Speaker 1: I mean I could probably do them. If nobody wants

1910
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:02,040
Speaker 1: to take this job, I'll do it. I can. I'll

1911
01:43:02,040 --> 01:43:04,519
Speaker 1: do them, Sophie, do you want to do them? Yeah?

1912
01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 1: I mean you can pre order Jamie's book. Um, and

1913
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:13,040
Speaker 1: that that is linked in her Instagram bio. Um that

1914
01:43:13,160 --> 01:43:17,320
Speaker 1: you can follow her on Instagram at Jamie christ Superstar

1915
01:43:17,680 --> 01:43:19,400
Speaker 1: and you can follow her on Twitter at Jamie Loftus.

1916
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:22,639
Speaker 1: Help if Twitter is still around. Uh. She has a

1917
01:43:22,640 --> 01:43:26,639
Speaker 1: podcast that she co hosts with Caitlyndt called The backtel Cast.

1918
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:30,200
Speaker 1: You should listen to her many limited run series, including

1919
01:43:30,200 --> 01:43:33,840
Speaker 1: her most recent run, which is Ghost Church and Sophie

1920
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:37,240
Speaker 1: produced along with The Vital Cast and everything every podcast

1921
01:43:37,320 --> 01:43:40,400
Speaker 1: on the planet. This has now become a plug for me. Um,

1922
01:43:40,520 --> 01:43:44,000
Speaker 1: do I get everything, Jamie? Yeah, that's exactly what I

1923
01:43:44,000 --> 01:43:48,120
Speaker 1: would have said, except worse. Yeah. So pre pre pre

1924
01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 1: order raw Dog. Yeah, thanks, Sophie. Yeah, preorder raw Dog.

1925
01:43:53,560 --> 01:43:56,839
Speaker 1: If you listen to the hot Dog episode of Bastards

1926
01:43:56,840 --> 01:43:59,439
Speaker 1: and didn't like it, you did like it now by

1927
01:43:59,479 --> 01:44:02,639
Speaker 1: the book, Yeah, legally you did like it. And if

1928
01:44:02,680 --> 01:44:06,599
Speaker 1: you disagree with that statement, we will send the CIA

1929
01:44:06,840 --> 01:44:10,040
Speaker 1: to kill your family. Yeah. And that, and let's make

1930
01:44:10,040 --> 01:44:14,439
Speaker 1: sure to attribute that quote to Robert Evans specifically, and

1931
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:20,080
Speaker 1: speaking specifically, Robert Evans specifically, Margaret killed Joy specifically, and

1932
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:23,880
Speaker 1: myself will be doing a Behind the Bastards virtual livestream

1933
01:44:23,920 --> 01:44:27,560
Speaker 1: show on December eight. You can get tickets at a

1934
01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:33,160
Speaker 1: moment dot co slash bTB. Yeah. Also, I have a

1935
01:44:33,200 --> 01:44:37,400
Speaker 1: sub stack now because Twitter's not doing great. So that

1936
01:44:37,479 --> 01:44:42,080
Speaker 1: makes me so sad. Why I like writing things. I

1937
01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:45,439
Speaker 1: got to write a thing last night. Write more things

1938
01:44:46,400 --> 01:44:49,360
Speaker 1: better for me than being on Twitter all the goddamn time. Yeah,

1939
01:44:49,640 --> 01:44:52,120
Speaker 1: you can find it at shatter zone dot sub stack

1940
01:44:52,240 --> 01:44:54,880
Speaker 1: dot com. Go there and I will be writing. I'll

1941
01:44:54,880 --> 01:44:57,240
Speaker 1: try to write something every week. Maybe I won't, maybe

1942
01:44:57,240 --> 01:45:01,040
Speaker 1: all of this will will fall apart, be austin time

1943
01:45:01,120 --> 01:45:04,040
Speaker 1: like tears in the rain. Or maybe you'll get a

1944
01:45:04,040 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 1: new thing for me every week. There's no way to

1945
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,479
Speaker 1: know every time. Half the time, when I get something

1946
01:45:08,520 --> 01:45:10,880
Speaker 1: from someone's substack, because I have subscribed to quite a few,

1947
01:45:11,000 --> 01:45:12,960
Speaker 1: but every time I get a message from someone's substack,

1948
01:45:13,000 --> 01:45:16,200
Speaker 1: it's always like I'm so sorry and like I didn't notice.

1949
01:45:16,439 --> 01:45:18,599
Speaker 1: Just give me the content and I'll send to hear

1950
01:45:18,640 --> 01:45:22,720
Speaker 1: about Yeah, yeah, it's fine, Look we all I don't know.

1951
01:45:23,240 --> 01:45:25,880
Speaker 1: I'm meaning to write more stuff as opposed to just

1952
01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 1: tweeting ship posts. So maybe it will happen, maybe it won't.

1953
01:45:29,479 --> 01:45:35,840
Speaker 1: There's no way to know, perfect by Behind the Bastards

1954
01:45:35,840 --> 01:45:38,479
Speaker 1: is a production of cool zone Media. For more from

1955
01:45:38,479 --> 01:45:42,160
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,

1956
01:45:42,320 --> 01:45:44,639
Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

1957
01:45:44,720 --> 01:45:47,160
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.