1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: M boy, that was That was not my best intro. 2 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: I'm Robert Evans. This is Behind the Bastards. We talk 3 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: about bad people, and my introductions run the gamut from 4 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: the sublimely brilliant to just going, and this was the latter, 5 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: and I apologize. My guest today is Mr vick Berger. 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: How you doing, Roberts? I'm doing good. How are you doing? 7 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm all right? You know the best I can be? 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,480 Speaker 1: Uh during a pandemic. I guess now, Vick, I don't 9 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: know how you describe what you do. I would describe 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: you as a a horror movie director who works exclusively 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: in the medium of things other people have filmed. Yeah, 12 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 1: I think so. I think that's a good way to 13 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: put it. I mean, I'm working with the most depressing 14 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: and h upsetting footage. But uh yeah, I definitely lean 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,600 Speaker 1: into the horror as backed of it. But I try 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: to let people watch it and then leave with a 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:07,600 Speaker 1: little bit of humor too it. Maybe maybe they'll be 18 00:01:07,640 --> 00:01:10,680 Speaker 1: able to laugh at it in a way. And you 19 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: you have among your your mini focuses. I came aware 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: of you from Twitter. You post your stuff on the 21 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: on the the YouTube's, as the kids call it, Um, 22 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: you have you have a real fascination with a fellow 23 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: named Jim Baker. If you were if you were gonna like, 24 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: if you were just gonna like summarize the what you 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: know of Jim Baker for our audience rolling into this, 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: How would you describe the man? Ah, he's a food salesman. 27 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: That's uh, that's that's what he does. And then he 28 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: uh now and then mentions a god or Trump stuff 29 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: like that. But first and foremost, I think he's a 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: he's a food salesman, a prepper. Um, that's what he 31 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: is today. But he is I guess he was pretty 32 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: groundbreaking in the fifties and sixties, is becoming one of 33 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: the first televangelists. Yeah, yeah, that's a good that's a 34 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: good short summary of the career of Jim Baker. But 35 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: there's a lot of details that I I think you 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,120 Speaker 1: don't know. But before we get into this, because I'm 37 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: very excited for you to learn some of this, because 38 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: it's it's all horrifying. His whole life as a nightmare. Um, 39 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: what do you what is what stands out about Jim Baker? 40 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: Do you like? What is it that makes him such 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: a focus of your own work. Oh, he's you know, 42 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: he's pretty charismatic. And he always has a wife or 43 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: a yan with him who has like he has a type. 44 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: You know, he's a definite type. And usually that means 45 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: that she's highly medicated or you know, he's on something 46 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: dope to fucking back. Yeah. Yeah, and uh, but but 47 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: it seems like she, like the wife, worships him, you know, 48 00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,359 Speaker 1: his loves everything about him and wants to help him 49 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: out and you know, sell these buckets or get you 50 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: know whatever the grift is, selling hotel rooms or you know, 51 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: whatever it is along the way. Um, but he's uh, 52 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: he's just interesting and and um, I don't know, just 53 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: I'm just fascinated with with his entire life. Yeah, I too, 54 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by his life. And I guess vic we 55 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 1: should just we should just roll into the story because 56 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,119 Speaker 1: there's a lot of there's a lot of Baker uh 57 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: to cover here. So James Orson Baker was born on 58 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,119 Speaker 1: January second, nineteen forty. He was the youngest of four 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: children by Raleigh and Fernia Baker in Muskegon, a city 60 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: in Michigan that's apparently located on some big fancy lake. 61 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: If you can believe such a thing. I've never heard 62 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: of it before, but that's what they say big lakes 63 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: up in Michigan apparently. So uh. Jim was born premature, 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: and he spent the first days of his life on 65 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: an incubator at the hospital while his mom and dad 66 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: went home. His foot was burned by the device's heating element, 67 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: and so he wound up having to stay there significantly 68 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: longer than usual. So, yeah, he wasn't great at being born, 69 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: not the best at coming into the world. Yeah, um, 70 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: And and unfortunately his parents were also really bad at 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 1: nurturing um. In his nineteen seventy six autobiography Move That Mountain, 72 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: which is like the first of so many autobiographies, this 73 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: guy's written way more than a person should, Jim describes 74 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: how quote mom and dad considered me so fragile that 75 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: they didn't allow my brothers and sisters to even breathe 76 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: on me. As a result, during his childhood, he never 77 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 1: experienced the sensation of my family members touched. So that's yeah, 78 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: that's a huge Yeah, it kind of you. I'm not 79 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: getting that, like he didn't started to feel bad for 80 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: him already. Yeah, No, you're you're going to this kid's 81 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: childhood is fucking rough, So it was understandable that Baker's 82 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: pay ars would be extra worried for their little boy, um, 83 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: but they seem to have gone beyond mere concern. His 84 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: stern Dutch family, as he later described them, let caution 85 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: for their son's health lead to a complete lack of 86 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,920 Speaker 1: physical contact, um and even emotional warmth. His father once 87 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: washed his mouth out with Paul Maulive soap for saying 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: gee whiz, so like he's no one touches him. And 89 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: there's i'll say, some unreasonable standards like ge whiz was 90 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: a curse word of the Baker home. Oh yeah, he 91 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: said the g W word. So his mom was also 92 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: a giant clean freak, and it was just it seems 93 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: like it. I mean, we're going to talk a lot 94 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: actually about his childhood. It all was terrible. So there's 95 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: echoes of this upbringing the modern Jim Baker. I'm not 96 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: going to get into a super long spiel about how 97 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: a lack of touch and infancy damages children. Now that 98 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 1: we're all quarantine, I think people probably probably more or 99 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: less get that, but I will say that, like if 100 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: you look at orphanage back in the day, like the 101 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 1: Dickensian ones where they were actually just like having kids 102 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: be alone in a giant room. Uh. The death rate 103 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: was thirty and modern researchers think that a huge amount 104 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: of that was not like disease or anything. It was 105 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: the fact that no one was touching these kids. There 106 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: was there was no like physical contact. Um, because they've observed. Yeah, exactly, 107 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 1: when you deprive infantsive touch, they stopped growing and they 108 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: can even die if they don't receive sufficient physical stimulation. 109 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 1: It's like an evolutionarything, right, Like, no sense in having 110 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: the baby exists if there's no mom or dad around 111 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: to take care of it. Um, So it's a bummer. 112 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: And uh, even when their nutritional needs are met, children 113 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: who are deprived of touching this way tend to grow 114 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: up unusually small, and they tend to score poorly on 115 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: tests and have massively elevated levels of stress hormones and 116 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,159 Speaker 1: adult Jim Baker describes himself as as a child as slow, small, 117 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: and not particularly bright. Um Like, this is how he 118 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: describes himself and and whether or not, Yeah, it's a bumber. 119 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: He still does have the boyish qualities though you know 120 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: he is he is a tiny little guy and he's 121 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,840 Speaker 1: got the got the kid face there, Yes, yes he does. 122 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, and whether or not, like I don't know, 123 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: some of that maybe him exaggerating in his own head. 124 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: But this is how he sees himself. Um, and that's important. 125 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: So making himself out to be the victim too, that's 126 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, part of it. That is a 127 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: big part of it. But oh man, the part we're 128 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 1: getting to is such a bomber dude. Before we get 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: into that, his father, Raleigh, was machinist at a piston 130 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: ring plant, and um. Jim later wrote that his dad 131 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: quote made a decent living, but I thought we lived 132 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: in poverty. Uh. And this is like a factor in 133 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: his upbringing. Two is he was certain that he and 134 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: his family were dirt poor, and they really were not. 135 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: They were pretty comfortably middle class. But um, this like 136 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,160 Speaker 1: longing for more money than he has, is a very 137 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: early thing for Jim Baker. Uh. Yeah. So there was 138 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 1: something weird with his mom and dad's relationship, but what 139 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: is not clear. A family friend described that despite many 140 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: visits to the house, she never heard Jim's moms say 141 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: more than ten words in all the years I knew them, 142 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: So something something's going on there. Yeahs happening, Yeah not 143 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: probably not great. Uh yeah. So it's it's interesting that 144 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 1: Jim describes himself as feeling as if he was impoverished 145 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 1: as a kid. All of the evidence suggests that his 146 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: family were full beneficiaries of the post war US economy, 147 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: in which a family of four could wind up owning 148 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: a house by accident. Raleigh Baker worked at the same 149 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: company for forty two and a half years. Um he 150 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: bought used Cadillacs and used televisions, but the family never 151 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: really wanted. When Jim was fifteen, they moved into an 152 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,199 Speaker 1: actual mansion with a grand piano in the living room. 153 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: Because it was just really fucking easy to make a 154 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 1: life for yourself in nineteen fifty you were a white guy. Yeah, yeah, 155 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: not a hard time. So uh yeah. His first home, though, 156 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: the home of his childhood, was a boxy cement block 157 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: house that was painted a hit the shade of orange, 158 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: and Jim would later recall that he felt a deep 159 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: seated feeling of inferiority as a result of the fact 160 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: that he had an ugly house. So interesting, Yeah, we're 161 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: seeing some things come together. Yeah, yeah, planting the seeds. 162 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: So the Baker family were Pentecostal Christians. Jim's grandfather, Joe, 163 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: helped to found the Central Assembly of God, a very 164 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: hardcore Pentecostal church. We're gonna talk a little bit more 165 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: about Pentecostals later, about four of Americans today or Pentecostal. 166 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: And I don't think most foreigners are, like city folks 167 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: really know a whole lot about the Pentecostal church. But 168 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: the short description I would give is that whenever you 169 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: hear something weird about American Christians, like getting bitten by 170 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: snakes to prove their faith or whatever, those are Pentecostals. 171 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: There's a joke in the early Simpsons where Moe is 172 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: like talking about his religion. He's something like, I've I've 173 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: been a snake handler since the day I was born 174 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: or something like that. Um, and that's that's what the 175 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: it is, snake handlers. Yeah, um yeah. Yeah. So one 176 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: of my sources for this episode was the exhaustively written 177 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: book PTL, The Rise and Fall of Jim and Tammy 178 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: Faye Baker's Evangelical Empire by John Wigger. Um, his last 179 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: name is Wigger. Yes, it's distracting, but it's a good book, 180 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 1: and it notes of Jim's religious upbringing quote the church 181 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: often failed to provide the comfort that Baker lacked at home. 182 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: As a child. He was terrified by a three ft 183 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: tall picture of a human eye that hung on the 184 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: wall of his Sunday school room, as he and the 185 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: other children saying, his eye is watching you. You you, 186 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: Oh my god. He said that he left him with 187 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 1: the impression that the Big I was always looking and 188 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: he would get you if you were ever bad. Oh 189 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,840 Speaker 1: my god. Not only did Pentecostals not go to the movies, 190 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: they were not supposed to dance, bowl, play cards, shoot pool, 191 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: or listen to rock and roll. Um. Another trill touchstone 192 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: for Pentecostals is the movie with Kevin Bacon about the 193 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: town that doesn't dance. That's Pentecostals. Yeah, oh, John lit 194 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: movie with Kevin Bacon where he doesn't dance. You know, 195 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: he dances, but the town doesn't until they dance. Yeah, 196 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 1: it's not the Footles movie. No, it is. Oh god, 197 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: I've got to cut Loose. Impressed with Robert actually knowing 198 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: something that is. Oh, no movie, you gotta watch Footloose. 199 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: It is a great movie. I mean you gotta cut loose. Sorry. 200 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: One of the two Kevin Bacon movies that are necessary 201 00:11:50,679 --> 00:11:58,839 Speaker 1: pieces of culture. What's the second one, obviously, Yeah, yeah, 202 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: So the word pecostal comes from an event recorded in 203 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: the Book of Acts, which is one of the you know, 204 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: lambor books of the Bible. After Christ's resurrection, he came 205 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: back to his followers as a zombie and was all like, 206 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: the Holy Ghost is gonna roll up on you, and 207 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: he's gonna fill you with lots of power. And then 208 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: later as the disciples were gathered for a feast in Jerusalem, quote, 209 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing, 210 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: mighty wind, and it filled all in the house where 211 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: they were sitting, and there appeared unto them cloven tongues, 212 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: like as a fire, and it sat upon each of them, 213 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost and 214 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: began to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave 215 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: them utterance. So that's in every Christian's Bible, and most 216 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 1: of them it's just like, yeah, it's just the thing 217 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: that happened in the Bible, right, Like there's a bunch 218 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 1: of moments in the Bible where like there's some dudes 219 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: that are friends of Jesus, are a prophet, and God 220 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: comes in and he does some ship. Uh, it's just 221 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: a thing that happened. But for the Pentecostals, that is 222 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: like the core of some really critical theological doings UM. 223 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: Starting in Los Angeles in nineteen o six, that's where 224 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:03,439 Speaker 1: Pentecostal Isn't began. In UM, members of the church came 225 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: to the belief that they could seek out this Holy 226 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 1: Fire and basically they believe that the Holy Spirit could 227 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: fill them up in this way at any time. So 228 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,559 Speaker 1: there's that bit in the Bible where talks about like 229 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: they started speaking in other tongues, as that the Spirit 230 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: gave them utterance. That's speaking in tongues. Like when you 231 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: see Christians like going a static and jumping around and 232 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,960 Speaker 1: like shrieking in in fake nonsense language, that's speaking in tongues. 233 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: This is where that comes from, UM, and it's a 234 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 1: big part of the Pentecostal faith. And it's really it's 235 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: really neat because they've actually done some scientific studies on 236 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: people speaking in tongues. The claim is that you're basically 237 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: talking in holy language that God throws into your head. UM. 238 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: They find that when because there's there's Pentecostals all around 239 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: the world. Now, who you know, are non native English 240 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,599 Speaker 1: speakers or what? They all have different you know, Pentecostals 241 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 1: who whose native language is different. Um, Whenever people speak 242 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: in tongues, they find that the things that they're saying 243 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: in tongues abide by the basic speech patterns of their 244 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 1: native language, which suggests that yeah, every they're making it 245 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:08,199 Speaker 1: it's Jewish. Yeah. Did you see the when there's this 246 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: I don't know what the name of the preacher is, 247 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: but he was speaking tongues and then as he's speaking tongues, 248 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: he just starts checking his phone and scrolling through his 249 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: Facebook feed. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and then it's just yeah, 250 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: just like you know, like like you know, I love 251 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: ship like that. I had a really fun I was 252 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: at the I was at this fucking big old celebration 253 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 1: for uh Shiva. And when I was in India and 254 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: somewhere like rural Rajasthan and we're at like this big 255 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: fucking festival. There's this like thirty foot statue of the 256 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: god and everything, and there's this monk sitting in front 257 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: of the statue of the God like reading, Um, I 258 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: don't know it's a chance or hymns or whatever from 259 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: like a big book. But in the middle of the 260 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: book he has his phone and as he's chanting, he's 261 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: like scrolling through his text messages and stuff, and like, yeah, 262 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: I love like that. Uh so um yeah, yeah. So 263 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: that's that's what pinecole Stallism is. Um. And I think 264 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: that when your church hates fun as much as the 265 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: Pentecostal church does, you kind of need something like speaking 266 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: in tongues. You don't have a whole lot else. So um. Thankfully, 267 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: for Jim, his dad was not as strict um as 268 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: they were supposed to be. He let the family watch 269 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 1: television and he took them to the movies. Jim's favorite 270 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: show as a boy was I Love Lucy. As an adolescent, 271 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: he took an even more casual attitude towards his faith restrictions. 272 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: At his church, children were seated far away and out 273 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: of sight from their parents, so Jim and his friends 274 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 1: would sneak out during the service and hang out at 275 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: the local soda fountain. There, they would listen to forbidden 276 00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: music before sneaking back to retake their seats. Fats Domino 277 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 1: was a favorite of theirs, which doesn't really have any 278 00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: bearing on anything, but I love the name Fats Domino. 279 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: It's just unbelievably good name him. Yeah. So, when Jim 280 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: was eleven, he met a yeah, sorry, this is I 281 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: shouldn't this is a bummer. When Jim was eleven, he 282 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: met a young man from his church and adult in 283 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: his twenties of thirties who introduced himself as Russell. Russell 284 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: approached Jim on Saturday after service and asked if he 285 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,480 Speaker 1: wanted to have a hamburger at a nearby driving Now 286 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: today if a stranger walks up to a kid and says, 287 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: you want to leave your parents behind and go get 288 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: a hamburger, like, that's a it's a red flag. You know, 289 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm not great at raising kids, but that that that's 290 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: a that's a that's a red flag. But this is 291 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: the early nineteen fifties. People trusted each other, and his 292 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: parents were like, sure, go off with the strange of 293 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: all I it's fine, and and he did. Uh so again, 294 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: and this is gonna seem really weird that fucking eleven 295 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: year old boy would go off with this guy in 296 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: his twenties or thirties to get a hamburger. But Jim 297 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: was again starved for attention. He later wrote that he 298 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: was quote odd that this adult would want me. He 299 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: gave me all his undivided attention. I felt wonderfully special. 300 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: Um so yeah, after Burgers, Russell drove off with Jim 301 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: down a deserted dirt road and stopped. He and zipped 302 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: Jim's jeans and started to fondle him. Um while he 303 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: was being molested. Jim felt quote almost proud that Russell 304 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: would give me so much attention. I thought, So, this 305 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: must be what having a buddy is all about. This 306 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: must be what big guys do. Yeah. Yeah, this uh 307 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 1: a little darker than I thought it would be at 308 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,880 Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, this is not a good It's not good. Yeah, 309 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,359 Speaker 1: it really is so and it's like heartbreaking, lee, like 310 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: you could it all completely scans, like, oh yeah, this 311 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: kid is just so desperate for attention. Yeah. Um. So. 312 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: Jim didn't realize anything was really wrong at first, and 313 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: Russell became a frequent figure in his life, hanging out 314 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: with the family occasionally and then taking Jim off to 315 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: isolated construction sites or other places where he could park 316 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: the car, um hiring him to MOA's lawns so that 317 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,800 Speaker 1: he could like grab him in the middle of chores 318 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: and molest him. And Jim never like fought this, like 319 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: he at the time, he went along with it, and 320 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 1: he later wrote, quote, I allowed Russell to do whatever 321 00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: he wanted to do to me, and I tried to 322 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: comply with all his requests because he lavished attention and 323 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 1: caring touches on me. Um. Yeah, he's what fifteen sixteen, 324 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: he said, No, he's eleven when, oh god, this goes 325 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 1: on for a few years. Yeah, he's he's very Uh, 326 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 1: he is the victim of a lot of abuse in 327 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: this period, um. And it is the kind of abuse 328 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: where at the time it's probably the most positive relationship 329 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: in his life, which is further of a head fuck. 330 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: It's a lot to deal with as an eleven year old. Yeah, 331 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 1: eventually Russell abandoned him, presumably because he got too old 332 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: and Russell was, you know, a pedophile. Um, and the 333 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: whole situation was just a huge mind fuck for young Jim. 334 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: As you can imagine, he never told anyone about it. Um. 335 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 1: You know, obviously he did later, but like as a kid, 336 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: he didn't tell anybody. Um. And yeah, like he just 337 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: didn't talk about it for decades. His parents had raised 338 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: a child that wasn't emotionally connected enough with himself to 339 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,480 Speaker 1: ask for a hug, let alone confess to years of 340 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,960 Speaker 1: sexual abuse. Uh quote, I could keep up appearances. I 341 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: could maintain a public persona even when I was falling 342 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: apart internally. Jim began to nurse complicated in confusing homosexual feelings, 343 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: which he still has never come to terms with, but 344 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: which he always found deeply shameful. Uh. He wasn't short 345 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: a boy who was done very wrong by the adults 346 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,120 Speaker 1: in his life and by the society around him. Um 347 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a real bummer. Yeah yeah, yeah, 348 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,640 Speaker 1: that's That's one of the rougher childhoods I've come across 349 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: in all this. Yeah yeah, So Jim's youth wasn't all 350 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: trauma though. When he was fifteen, the family moved to 351 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: a much nicer house in neighborhood, and Jim did bloom somewhat. 352 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: In high school. He had an English teacher who really 353 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: saw promise in him despite his middling grades, and encouraged 354 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,640 Speaker 1: Jim's creativity. And it turned out that Jim Baker had 355 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: some incredible instinctive talent for showmanship. Given the opportunity to 356 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: DJ at a photography club dance, he developed a love 357 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: for spinning records. And I don't know what it meant 358 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: to be DJ in the mid fifties. I would that, Yeah, 359 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: I desperately want to listen to fucking fifteen year old 360 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: Jiff Baker. Yeah, yeah, man, But he was apparently good 361 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: at it. This is kind of what he was. He 362 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: was kind of a loner. But then he starts djaying 363 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: for parties and he starts getting invited places, and it 364 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: kind of like it makes him into a kind of 365 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: popular kid. So this is yeah, yeah, he's cool. Now 366 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,919 Speaker 1: he's a d J. Yeah, yeah, so that's pretty sweet. Um. 367 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifties six, he developed his first show. It 368 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 1: was a fifteen act vaudeville style reality show meant as 369 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: a fundraiser for the school newspaper. UH. The show featured 370 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: actual professional performances from a Miss Elvis Presley, which I'm 371 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: guessing as some sort of celebrity impersonator. And this this 372 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,919 Speaker 1: person had been on The Steve Allen Show, which was 373 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,239 Speaker 1: a popular TV show at the time. There was a 374 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: Mombo trial, there were Charleston dancers, the whole nine yards. 375 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,879 Speaker 1: It was like a big It wasn't just like he 376 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: wasn't just like throwing together like a little skit before 377 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: a thing. This was like a huge production. UM. And 378 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,400 Speaker 1: it turned out popular enough that it became a regular 379 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: event at the school, and Jim would manage it and 380 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 1: organize it for the next couple of years while he 381 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: was in high school. UM. The nineteen fifty seven show 382 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: was even bigger, with twenty five acts. It was also popular. 383 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: Jim claims that four hundred of his classmates showed up 384 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: at his house for a party. UM. And Jim later 385 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: recalled something about this period of time that when I 386 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: read it, I can only hear it in Nathan Fielder's voice. Um. 387 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: I was in the limelight, completely the center of attention. 388 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: I was obsessed with popularity and would do almost anything 389 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: to get it. Yeah. Yeah, all of this is just 390 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 1: just scans so disastrously. Yeah. So his teacher, William Harrison, 391 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: backs up this image of high school era Jim quote, 392 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 1: Jim love the limelight. I have often thought, had I 393 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: been a promoter, I could have turned that boy into 394 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: a rock star. UM. And it is kind of sound 395 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: like he had that sort of potential or at least 396 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: the ability he could have been, like, you know, if 397 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: this kid, um, if this kid embraces the kind of 398 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: complicated emotional and and uh sexual feelings and stuff that 399 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: he's he's uh struggling with, and embraces the artistic side 400 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,639 Speaker 1: of himself, he could have rolled to New York and 401 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 1: had a great career in the theater or something like. 402 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: Monologues are like very theatrical. That's like, you know, they 403 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: build and they yeah, they he he He definitely could 404 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: have succeeded in like Hollywood or something like the fact 405 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: that he's he's been so successful in this career for 406 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: like sixty years now is all the proof you need 407 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: of that. But he doesn't take that path at all, um. 408 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: And the reason why he doesn't take that path at least, 409 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: he will say that the reason why he didn't take 410 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: that path is because he hit a kid with his car. 411 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: Oh man, did you know that he hit a kid 412 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: with his car? Did not? The kids? Just yeah? Probably yeah, yeah, yeah, 413 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 1: here we're well. I always love talking about when people 414 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: hit kids with their cars. Usually it turns out better 415 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: than it did for George Bush's wife, Uh yeah, which 416 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 1: is look that one up, kids she killed a kid. UM, 417 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: probably on purpose. I mean, that's just that's just a 418 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: a blatant accusation with no no evidence behind it. But 419 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:35,479 Speaker 1: it's always I love talking about that. W W his wife, 420 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 1: His wife, she killed her ex boyfriend with a car 421 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:44,320 Speaker 1: when she was a teenager. People don't talk about that 422 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: into circulation. But you know who doesn't hit children with 423 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: their cars? Often? No, the products and services that support 424 00:23:54,840 --> 00:24:01,399 Speaker 1: this podcast, yeah, very very rarely, I will say, Yeah, 425 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: that's if they do, they apologize exactly. This is all 426 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: you're reading. That's almost word for word what's written on 427 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: the ad document. Yeah, so listen to these products that 428 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 1: almost certainly won't hit children with their cars. We're back. 429 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what a what a product. Okay, so 430 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: let's talk about the time that Jim Baker hit a 431 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: kid with his car. So I'm gonna quote again from 432 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: the book PTL, which has a good description of this um. 433 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: The turning point in his religious life, as Baker later remembered, 434 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: it was when he ran over three year old Jimmy Summerfield. 435 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: Baker had just dropped off Sandy Tires, who was the 436 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: girl he was dating, at her home, and was pulling 437 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,160 Speaker 1: up to church. On a snowy Sunday night. Sandy, Sandy Tires. 438 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: I think so, Yeah, that's a cool name. That is 439 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,399 Speaker 1: a cool name. Yeah, Sandy Tires. Yeah. I was pulling 440 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: up to church in a snowy Sunday night. He was 441 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 1: driving his father's fifty two Cadillac with his cousin George 442 00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:58,040 Speaker 1: in the seat next to him, when he felt a bump. 443 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 1: The boy had slid down a snow bank in front 444 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: of the car. The front tire rolled over his chest, 445 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: crushing his collar bone and puncturing a lung. At first, 446 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: Baker despaired that the boy might die, but miraculously he 447 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 1: survived with that debilitating injuries. The miracle of Summerfield's recovery, 448 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: Baker would later say, convinced him to attend Bible College. Now, 449 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: this is a story that Jim would go on to 450 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: tell repeatedly for the rest of his life, and it 451 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: definitely happened. He totally hit that kid with a car. 452 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: But Jim also would go on to lie about it 453 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: repeatedly and in a very specific way. Um So, in 454 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: his first autobiography, published in nineteen seventy six, Jim claimed 455 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,960 Speaker 1: that the incident happened in his senior year of high school. 456 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 1: And this obviously works well for structuring and narrative, so 457 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: we can claim, like, oh, I was a DJ, I 458 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: was doing all this stuff, throwing all these parties and 459 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: events and stuff. I was on track to like go 460 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: into Hollywood or go to New York or whatever, and 461 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: then you know, I'm there at this tragedy. I hit 462 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:51,120 Speaker 1: this kid, and seeing this boy survived miraculously like forces me, uh, 463 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: turns my soul over to God. Um. And he claims 464 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: that like, after this happened, he quit all of the 465 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: arts and stuff he'd been into djaying dances and throwing 466 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: parties and whatever, and started focusing on the Bible. But 467 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 1: this is a lie because the crash occurred in nineteen 468 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: fifty six, two years before he graduated, and he continued 469 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: making his variety show DJ and going to parties and 470 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: entertaining people for the rest of his time that he 471 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: was in high school. Um. There's zero evidence that this 472 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: event led to some sort of instant transformation in his life. Sure, 473 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: maybe it was like bubbling under the surface and it eventually, 474 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: but he didn't. He lies about the way that this 475 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: all works in a way that is pretty understandable. To 476 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: people who study this kind of Christian grifter, like they 477 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,679 Speaker 1: all every they all need a story like this. You know, 478 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:35,560 Speaker 1: I was, I was on this bad path and then 479 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: this thing happened and it turned me over to God. Um. 480 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: So yeah, this is Jim's thing, right, because he can't obviously, like, honestly, 481 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,440 Speaker 1: if you're if you're, if you're a modern day version 482 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: of this guy, you lean into the fact that you 483 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: were abused as a kid or whatever, and you tell 484 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: that story. But Jim doesn't, like, you know, you can't 485 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,679 Speaker 1: really square with that, and so he turns to this 486 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: other story about hitting a kid with his car and 487 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: claims at that it's what what switched him over. Um, 488 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,359 Speaker 1: so yeah, I don't know, that's what he what he 489 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: does and he goes to North Central Bible College in Minneapolis, 490 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: where he meets a young woman named Tammy fay La 491 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: Valley in nineteen sixty. Now, Baker had a restaurant and 492 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: the department store at the college, and Tammy worked nearby. 493 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 1: She was the oldest of eight children who grew up 494 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: in a rural home with no indoor plumbing. The two 495 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: fell instantly in love and dropped out of college together 496 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: after their third date. Uh, they decided that they didn't 497 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,639 Speaker 1: need any more book learning and they were going to 498 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,160 Speaker 1: be traveling evangelists. So that's an important aspect of Jim 499 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: Baker's things. He starts going to school to learn how 500 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: to be a Bible professional and he drops the funk 501 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: out and uh he will later claim had never actually 502 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: read the Bible when he started doing this. Uh. He 503 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: just starts criss crossing the United States with Tammy. And 504 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: during this period, it's important to understand the real United States, 505 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: particularly and like a lot of the South was regularly 506 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: criss crossed by this dense network of of revival preachers. Uh. 507 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: These were charismatic, evangelical kanman grifters who gathered huge groups 508 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: of worshippers together under colorful tensor, hosted special preaching sessions 509 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: at large local churches. Most of these preachers were men, 510 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: but there were also a number of popular husband and 511 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: wife couples. There was even a small child, mar Joe Gortoner, 512 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: whose parents trained him like a monkey and had him 513 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: reciting marriage ceremonies from Rote when he was four or 514 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: five years old. Um. There's a really amazing documentary about 515 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: mar Joe that covers this whole subculture. This like evangelical 516 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 1: preacher grift traveling thing. Um. And the movie is just 517 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 1: called mar Joe Won an Oscar. It's great. People should 518 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,879 Speaker 1: watch it if they want to understand kind of the 519 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: what Baker comes up in. Jim and Tammy Baker like 520 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: make this their life, um, and they're they're good at it, 521 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: you know they Jim has in an eight talent for 522 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,840 Speaker 1: show business and a desperate need for approval, so he 523 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: was really good at performing. His only weakness was that 524 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: he couldn't sing for ship, and his wife, Tammy had 525 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,160 Speaker 1: a beautiful voice and could play the accordions. So they 526 00:28:56,200 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: were really a perfect match together. Yeah, yeah, it's this 527 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: works out great. Uh. So the two stood out enough 528 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 1: from the pack that started in the early nineteen sixties 529 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: they were able to get a gig with one of 530 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,040 Speaker 1: the very first names in Christian television, the Reverend Pat Robertson. 531 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 1: Yeah here's old Pat. So Pat had formed the Christian 532 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: Broadcasting Network in nineteen sixty, which is the same year 533 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: that Jim and Tammy met, and prior to the existence 534 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 1: of the c B in evangelical preachers had been dominant 535 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: voices on the radio. The mid sixties sparked the first 536 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: great wave of American televangelists, though guys with names like 537 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: Rex Humbard and Oral Roberts harangued their flocks with stories 538 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 1: of an active and physically present devil. They warned of 539 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: Christ's imminent arrival any day now, and taught that the 540 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: Bible had to be believed literally in order to avoid 541 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,400 Speaker 1: God's wrath. So these are these are the folks that 542 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: Jim and Tammy, these are like the heroes of their 543 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: their era. Yeah, yeah, so this is great. So Tammy 544 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: and Jim created a children's puppet show for the c 545 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: b N. It was a hit, and they were contracted 546 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: to start another show, the very first Christian talk show 547 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: in history. Um. Now, this was not a very particularly 548 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: original idea. Jim at the time basically just said, I 549 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,120 Speaker 1: want to do the Johnny Carson Show, but for Jesus um. 550 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,800 Speaker 1: And that's that's basically what they did. As John Wigger 551 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: writes in PTL quote, Jim and Tammy created their own 552 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 1: unique style, often doing two hours or more of live, 553 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: unscripted television to day in front of a studio audience. 554 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: Viewers came to believe that they were part of PTLS 555 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: mission and the drama of Jim and Tammy's personal life. 556 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: The Bakers became their friends and PTL their extended family. 557 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: Yeah interesting, yeah, a part of it. Yeah yeah, so 558 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: this works out really well and that that family VIC 559 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: that extended family would come to include I'm just gonna 560 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: call him America's greatest hero, Colonel Sanders. Yeah yeah, Now 561 00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: you've done a whole video about this, VIX, so you 562 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: don't need to hear it again, but you, the listener, 563 00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: need to hear Colonel Sanders and his friend laborious. You 564 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: tell Jim Baker about Colonel Sanders is fecal matter because 565 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: it a little too much detail, astounding. When you think 566 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: it's over, it goes a little dec This is gonna 567 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: be like three minutes, and the listener, you need to 568 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 1: know as we play this that the whole time this 569 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 1: is going on, there's an absolutely massive bucket of KFC. 570 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: It's awesome, such a good moment in history. All Right, 571 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna play the clip now four or five years 572 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: ago as observation, are you going to prepare for operation 573 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: for taking a poodle polup out of the big corn 574 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: And that's a fore erunner of the capture. You see, 575 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: brother Rogers happened even that. Come into my room and 576 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:52,600 Speaker 1: four he left. Why you when I have a pastoral 577 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: prayer and I love that the ladies and I told 578 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: him how simple the operation going to be. They just 579 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: dripped in there, you know, in colon was right before 580 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,600 Speaker 1: you picked out. He laid his hand on my stomach 581 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 1: in the prayer and prayed to God that you need 582 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: to remove him malady. That caused my trouble. Next morning 583 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: when they opened up, they had more polyp or anything 584 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:22,000 Speaker 1: in the world. Yeah, I remember, I remember when it passed, 585 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: but I didn't think they gave you an animal that 586 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: next morning to get the barrier. I'm all out of 587 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: the cold, you know, for the surgery, and I remember 588 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 1: doing it discharge of that barrier. But I heard something 589 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: going plunk in the camboda. Well, of course it's a miracle, okay. 590 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: And I couldn't see what it was. I just think 591 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 1: it might be some fetal matter out of the wrinkle 592 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: of the colon, you see, and lo and behold, why 593 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: if you finding nothing there but the large work that 594 00:32:50,560 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: poor boy? Do you do you remember that situation? Do 595 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,640 Speaker 1: remember that, jim uh? This polyp had blocked the colonel's bowels, 596 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: and he was, yes, it was quite large. And the 597 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,719 Speaker 1: physician went ahead and performed the surgery. But when he 598 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 1: performed the surgery, he couldn't find the growth. And he 599 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: searched in the intestine ten inches both ways and couldn't 600 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 1: find it. And of course, when you operate on someone 601 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: as famous as Colonel Sanders, and it looks like it's 602 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,040 Speaker 1: been a mistake, while the doctor is quite upset, and 603 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: the the head of the surgical review board happened to 604 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: be a famous surgeon who was a member of evangel Tabernacle. 605 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: He knew what had happened, but the Jewish attorney who 606 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: performed the surgeony didn't know really that that it was 607 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: a miracle of God, that God had healed him. And 608 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 1: so the colonel told him. He said, well, God has 609 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 1: healed me, and so that's the reason, and said, I'm 610 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 1: not mad at you for performing the surgery, because he 611 00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: was doing what he thought was right, of course, but 612 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: God beat him to it. Okay, we're back, and I 613 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: hope you all, I hope you all really enjoyed that 614 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: plopping in the commode plopping And it's so detailed and 615 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: that's I've never heard that, like the wrinkle of the colon, 616 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: I've never like, yeah, never, I hope I never hear 617 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: it again. Actually no, But this is like this thing 618 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,279 Speaker 1: that we're making fun of the fact that he is 619 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: this is just an old man talking talking the way. 620 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 1: You know. I have heard elderly people talk in that 621 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: detail about bowel movements before, and it's always been like 622 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 1: family members, you know, And that's kind of what wiggers 623 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: talking about. We're talking about. What makes PTL special is 624 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,399 Speaker 1: that this was something this like people sitting at home 625 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,959 Speaker 1: and fucking you know, bum funk wherever in the middle 626 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: of nowhere, and they're like it did this did make 627 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: them feel like part of the family because they've got 628 00:34:55,719 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: an older talking about moments exactly, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's 629 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: no nobody's polished in this. Nobody seems uh like a 630 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 1: celebrity or anything. Like they feel like your friends and 631 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: family and that. Yeah, it's kind of like, uh, it's 632 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: kind of like a big part of like what makes 633 00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: modern you know, YouTube celebrities and podcast hosts and whatnot, 634 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: um so attractive to their audiences is that they're they're 635 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: just living their lives on camera. Um. Like that that 636 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: is now a thing that is a dominant aspect of 637 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: our culture. People make millions of dollars doing that, and 638 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: it's everybody's got pretty much got someone in that vein 639 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: um that they love. But you know, Jim and Tammy, 640 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: there's a lot of talk about how, you know, influential 641 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: they were in the history of like televangelism, but just 642 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: in the history of like normal media, Like they really 643 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: predict something that is kind of the modern wave of 644 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: our culture. Um. I think that's pretty interesting. Um. Yeah. 645 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,319 Speaker 1: So the Jim and Tammy Show evolved over the next 646 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 1: few years into an increasingly professional production like Jim's old 647 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: variety shows that were a number of different acts. There 648 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: would be theological lectures by Jim and guest preachers, musical acts, 649 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: emotional stories of falls from grace and salvation, and of 650 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 1: course there were regular please for donations. Jim and Tammy 651 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: switched from Pat Robertson's network to Trinity Broadcasting Network in 652 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. They picked up a new name, to 653 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 1: the PTL Club, and depending on who gives the answer, 654 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: PTL stands for Praise the Lord or people that Love 655 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: or to their critics, pass the loot, Yeah and PTO 656 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: grew into an extravagant affair, which BuzzFeed describes able in 657 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: this rite up quote. Jim and Tammy Fay acted as 658 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: host to famous ministers and artists like Billy Graham, Oral Roberts, 659 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,000 Speaker 1: Mickey Rooney, and Mr t. On each episode, they would 660 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,840 Speaker 1: enter the stage to rapturous applause, holding hands and waving 661 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: to their fans. On set, the couple would be flanked 662 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: by a full choir on one side and a backing 663 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 1: band on the other. The spotlights were bright, often reflecting 664 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: the shin off Jim Baker's forehead, the iridescent highlighter surrounding 665 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 1: Tammy Fay's big, big eyes, and the shiny tears bleeding 666 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 1: down her cheeks as she's saying or backed up Baker's 667 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: religious testimony. Baker would speak slowly, his cadence even, and 668 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 1: just slow enough to draw viewers in, making them feel 669 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:11,240 Speaker 1: as though he and Tammy Faye were delivering private messages 670 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: to them, sent directly from God. Yeah, this is good, 671 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: this is all good, and it should be noted. Um, 672 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,520 Speaker 1: you're gonna expect, I think, in a story about this 673 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,879 Speaker 1: kind of guy, especially someone who's going into a major 674 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: Trump surrogates some tales of racism that does not appear 675 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: to have been a factor, and in fact PTL was 676 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: renowned for having a huge being very popular among black people, 677 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: having a large black audience, and also like one of 678 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: their most popular guests was a former black panther who 679 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: would talk about like getting into shootouts with the cops 680 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 1: and stuff. Um like they they they were from the beginning, 681 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 1: really good at um. I guess you would just broadly 682 00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:56,879 Speaker 1: say not being racist. So yeah, accepting of others because yeah, 683 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: I guess they like anybody that has money to Yes, yes, 684 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: but but I know is green. I know. Tammy Sue 685 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: was very supportive of the gay community, like later in 686 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: her later they were. No, they were profoundly homophobic. Homosexuality 687 00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: is evil, it is the devil. They talked about that 688 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: frequently on their show in this period. We'll talk about 689 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: a little bit about Yeah, that happened much later, that 690 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,799 Speaker 1: is not happening now. Yeah. Uh. One of the things 691 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 1: that separated PTL from other shows of the same format 692 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,839 Speaker 1: was again the unpolished nature of the content. No matter 693 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: how dressed up like the set got um, the focus 694 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: of the day was always just Jim and Tammy and 695 00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,480 Speaker 1: whatever they wanted to talk about, and they talked about 696 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:43,359 Speaker 1: real issues drug abuse, depression, exercise, diet, anxiety, like their 697 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,800 Speaker 1: own struggles with all those things. These were all regular 698 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,360 Speaker 1: topics and this realism yeah, like kind of foreshadowed reality 699 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,879 Speaker 1: TV as well in some ways. UM. The show's other 700 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: piece of brilliance was Jim's decision to broadcast on a 701 00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,479 Speaker 1: satellite network. This was groundbreaking at the time. ESPN didn't 702 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,919 Speaker 1: even start podcasting satellite until ninety nine, a year after 703 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,160 Speaker 1: the PTL Show did. Satellite allowed Christian programming to reach 704 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: people all over the world, even folks in very isolated 705 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: rural areas who would otherwise not really have access to 706 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 1: TV at all. PTL started selling airtime to other churches 707 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: and built up a whole network of Christian content. No 708 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 1: one had ever done this before, So yeah, they start 709 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: is just the Jim and Tammy Show, and it turns 710 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: into like this network with a very large and dedicated 711 00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: cult following. UM. Jim was smart enough to lean into 712 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: this too. He began airing testimonials from viewers at the 713 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: ends of episodes. The book PTL Highlights One from nineteen 714 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 1: seventy nine quote, a woman in her twenties or thirties 715 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: smiles at the camera and says that having PTL in 716 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: her home was like friends being there when other people couldn't. 717 00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: I know, PTL would be there every day. Baker ended 718 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,480 Speaker 1: his shows by looking right at the camera, smiling and 719 00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:54,520 Speaker 1: telling his viewers God loves you. He really does, so 720 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:01,239 Speaker 1: really leaning into speaking to the low only making the 721 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,080 Speaker 1: lonely his audience and then getting pup pumping him for cash. 722 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: That's the PTL strategy. And Jim Baker knows how to 723 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: reach lonely people because he's a profoundly lonely man. Um. Yeah, yeah, 724 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: it's good. Yeah yeah yeah, um awesome. So from nineteen 725 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: seventy nineteen seventy seven, the PTL network grew from three 726 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: TV stations to more than two hundred uh In nineteen 727 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:34,800 Speaker 1: seventy nine, it made one and a half million dollars 728 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,399 Speaker 1: a month. By five it was making more than ten 729 00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:40,840 Speaker 1: million dollars a month. They started experimenting with foreign networks 730 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: in different local hosts, and the money brought changes. In 731 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy six, they went from renting a single studio 732 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: to buying a twenty acre compound and constructing a three 733 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 1: million dollar church in recording studio upon it. By doing this, 734 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 1: Petail almost immediately pushed itself well beyond its financial means. 735 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,719 Speaker 1: But this was fine and actually part of Jim's and 736 00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 1: ten see, Jim's particular brand of Pentecostalism had a strong 737 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,160 Speaker 1: entrepreneurial bent to it. We call it the prosperity gospel today, 738 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,760 Speaker 1: and Jim is kind of part of an ancillary chunk 739 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 1: of that. If something was meant to succeed in this 740 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,959 Speaker 1: particular branch of the faith, God would make the numbers work. 741 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: So like, you don't worry about not being able to 742 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,319 Speaker 1: afford something. Um, you leap into things that you can't 743 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: afford to do, and you trust that God will find 744 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,680 Speaker 1: a way to to to to make it possible. And 745 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 1: if you're doing things like try to be like, Okay, 746 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,840 Speaker 1: well no we can't afford it. We can only afford 747 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: a five million dollar church now, so let's build that 748 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,200 Speaker 1: now and if we need to expand later we can. 749 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:42,279 Speaker 1: That's actually sacrilegious, like because you're not trusting that God exactly. Yeah, yeah, 750 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: you got to get the bigger private jet, you know, yeah, 751 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,719 Speaker 1: exactly make it work for us. If I was just 752 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:51,319 Speaker 1: buying first class flights that would be angering God. He 753 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:56,919 Speaker 1: wants me to Like that's literally the theology. It's kind 754 00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,680 Speaker 1: of fucking brilliant, and I want to steal it, right. 755 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: I do think I could probably if I, if I 756 00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,400 Speaker 1: really committed, I could reinvent myself as an evangelical preacher, 757 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,239 Speaker 1: you know, I could. I could claim that I I 758 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: learned from all the drug abuse and and all the Yeah, 759 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,439 Speaker 1: I think I do it. And then you start going, 760 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: start going, you go bankrupt, and you tell your followers 761 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,839 Speaker 1: I'm going bank out and need money. Help me out, 762 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: help me out, you know. Yeah, And the worst, I mean, 763 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:27,480 Speaker 1: the best thing about it is like I could really 764 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,799 Speaker 1: the worst things that I would that I do on 765 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,279 Speaker 1: my fall from grace, the better I become it being 766 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,839 Speaker 1: a preacher later Like yeah, there's there's no there's no 767 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 1: floor's it really rules. Um so that's anyway, that's my 768 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,080 Speaker 1: retirement plan. Um bumble into that, folks. It's going to 769 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: be a ride. Uh so yeah. Yeah. Literally, when Jim 770 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: Baker gives his own histories of PTL during this time, 771 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 1: it's full of stories where like the church would need 772 00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: to make a hundred thousand dollars in a weekend. Otherwise 773 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,719 Speaker 1: they're going to go bankrupt and then suddenly a bunch 774 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: of donations would flood in. And he leaned into this 775 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 1: in n he wrote, some people think you need plenty 776 00:43:07,320 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: of money in the bank before you can begin to 777 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: operate in faith. I never have. Are you currently debating 778 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:13,520 Speaker 1: over taking a step of faith in the Lord? Or 779 00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,000 Speaker 1: are you waiting until it looks safe to move? Remember, 780 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:18,800 Speaker 1: facts don't count when you have God's word on the subject, 781 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: which is the essential part of why this like liberal 782 00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: obsession with like facts matter and and you know, trying 783 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:31,040 Speaker 1: to argue or fact check or it will never work. 784 00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: It will never ever work. They don't care, and it 785 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,360 Speaker 1: doesn't matter how many of them get diseases like crowding 786 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,360 Speaker 1: into churches and stuff like. That's not what this is about. 787 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:47,880 Speaker 1: You're playing the wrong game. Um. It's about stopping people 788 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: from falling into these weird cults like and and helping 789 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,320 Speaker 1: them get out. But convincing them will never happen. Arguing 790 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: with them will never work. This is this is the 791 00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: facts don't matter. It's God's word on the subject. That's 792 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: what we're fucking dealing with here. Um and it's awesome 793 00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:06,600 Speaker 1: and good. So as essentially the CEO of his own 794 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: TV network, Jim never let facts get in his way. 795 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,560 Speaker 1: On one occasion, when his network found itself owing twenty 796 00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,680 Speaker 1: dollars with nothing in the bank, he wrote a bad 797 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,080 Speaker 1: check and sent it off to the station manager. Enough 798 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: money came in the next day to come to the balance. 799 00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: So Jim kept on doing the same thing, and he 800 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: would tell this story openly to people, um, and he 801 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: would claim it as like, look at how good God is, 802 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: look at how great you know my faith is that 803 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: I was willing to do this, But he was just 804 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:38,479 Speaker 1: writing bad checks like like, which is a crime, Which 805 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: is absolutely a crime. This is check fraud. He just 806 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:46,919 Speaker 1: got lucky. Um. But yeah, he bragged regularly about check fraud. UM. 807 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: And he would always leave out the fact that like, 808 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 1: this wasn't he wasn't really just throwing himself into the 809 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,439 Speaker 1: wind and trusting and faith. He always had Telethon's plan 810 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,399 Speaker 1: for the day that he would write these bad checks, 811 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: so he knew that the money was going to come in. 812 00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 1: He had a pretty good understanding of how much he 813 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:02,440 Speaker 1: could bring in. But the fact that he was just 814 00:45:02,480 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: throwing himself on God's mercy, you know that that that 815 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: drew people to him. That was part of the fucking appeal. 816 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:14,600 Speaker 1: That was part of the grift. So yeah, it's good, um, yeah, 817 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: and and it's awesome. And Jim's message to his followers 818 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,560 Speaker 1: by doing stuff like this was that in their own 819 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,520 Speaker 1: lives financial caution was an act of religious heresy, and 820 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,720 Speaker 1: even if they couldn't afford it, they should keep throwing 821 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: money at Jim Baker and his his operation, which they did. 822 00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: At the end of nineteen seventy seven, he wrote a 823 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:35,000 Speaker 1: short book titled The Big Three Mountain Movers. Now it 824 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: was angled as a book of like biblical financial advice 825 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: and the like. He told his flock that God wanted 826 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,239 Speaker 1: them to have money and would provide it, but they 827 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 1: had to provide God with testaments of faith first. And 828 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,760 Speaker 1: this was essentially he was not an original idea for Jim. 829 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,120 Speaker 1: This was an evolution of the ideas that Oral roberts 830 00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:52,960 Speaker 1: Um had had started. And roberts was maybe the greatest 831 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: preacher of this era. We'll have to do an episode 832 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: on him at some point. His great innovation was the 833 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,759 Speaker 1: idea of seed money, which is money that you pay 834 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: earl Roberts that unlocks God's blessings. So the idea of 835 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,000 Speaker 1: seed money is you want something, you need something, You're broken, 836 00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: you're desperate. You know, you can't make the mortgage, you 837 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,400 Speaker 1: can't make rent. You take all of the money you have, 838 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:14,799 Speaker 1: and rather than like using it to buy food or 839 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 1: trying to like set up a payment plan, you you 840 00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: give that to Oral Roberts it or whatever preacher is 841 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: telling you, and that God will see that um that 842 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,759 Speaker 1: expression of faith, and he will turn that expression of 843 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,919 Speaker 1: faith into a seed that grows a tree that will 844 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: return more money to you. And that's because like Oral 845 00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:35,399 Speaker 1: has a direct connection to God. That yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 846 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: I mean essentially the idea is that that's what it 847 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: evolved into, is that like, you know, I'm I I 848 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 1: have such a great connection to God. I think initially 849 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,319 Speaker 1: it was just this idea that like if you, if 850 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: you prove to God that you really trust him by 851 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,920 Speaker 1: throwing all this money at his church and not thinking 852 00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:52,879 Speaker 1: of your own financial needs, he will take care of you, 853 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:57,800 Speaker 1: you know. So that's good and healthy and sounds legit. 854 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:00,920 Speaker 1: And this becomes the fundamental idea behind the prosperity Gospel, 855 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: which is today one of the most I mean, all 856 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: of the preachers. Trump surrounds him with our prosperity. His 857 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 1: religious advisor pulls her flock. Yeah, you have to donate 858 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,040 Speaker 1: your first month's salary to my church every year, like 859 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,160 Speaker 1: even if you can't afford it, because that's how you 860 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,200 Speaker 1: prove she's married to Yeah. Yeah, fun one of the 861 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,359 Speaker 1: some fucking one of the musicians from what is it um? Yeah, 862 00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:24,920 Speaker 1: from Journey, Yeah yeah, like the guy that wrote all 863 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,680 Speaker 1: the hit songs. Yeah, that's a real bummer because I 864 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: have some great memories of drunkenly singing Journey in street crimes. 865 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: But what a sad, sad tale. We should we should 866 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: execute people once they make a great song. Just get 867 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:48,320 Speaker 1: him out of there, don't let him ruin anything, just like, hey, 868 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: yesterday is a great tune into the chamber. You go, 869 00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:59,120 Speaker 1: come on words, Paul. Yeah, that's where you draw the line. 870 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,160 Speaker 1: That's that's what's page all right, let him write one 871 00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:12,000 Speaker 1: more sock. Uh. You know who else supports mandatory executions 872 00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:18,120 Speaker 1: for great artists. They don't. So, oh well, this is 873 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:29,839 Speaker 1: an ad plug. Here's products we're back. So uh, we're 874 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: talking about the prosperity gospel. You know, which is a 875 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 1: child of Oral Roberts, and Roberts was a regular guest 876 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: on the PTL Club, and Bakers shamelessly stole his idea 877 00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 1: for promising godly people blessings in exchange for cold, hard cash. 878 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,320 Speaker 1: He'd held telethons before, but in the late sixties and 879 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,840 Speaker 1: early seventies, they've been pretty normal, kind of like the 880 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: stuff you see on NPR, you know, or whatever, not NPR, 881 00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:51,480 Speaker 1: but like public television, like you know where they'll do 882 00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:54,080 Speaker 1: these regular fundraising drives. Give us money, and we can 883 00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 1: keep doing this. That was how it started. It evolved though, yeah, yeah, 884 00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,960 Speaker 1: like it was any normal at first, and it evolved 885 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: into him promising his audience that they would get rich 886 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,200 Speaker 1: by making him rich. In n he harangued his viewers, 887 00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 1: many of you have never given because you really don't 888 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,279 Speaker 1: trust God, um, And they were regularly. One of the 889 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,240 Speaker 1: terms you'll hear a lot in these kind of preachers 890 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,480 Speaker 1: is prove God by doing this by this donation, Like 891 00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,480 Speaker 1: you prove the existence of God by throwing us money. 892 00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,960 Speaker 1: It's it seems profoundly sacrilegious to me, an atheist, But 893 00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,359 Speaker 1: what do I know? What the fun do I know? Um? 894 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:35,040 Speaker 1: So he promised that God would reward their donations a hundredfold, 895 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,200 Speaker 1: and he would also throw eternal life into the deal. 896 00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: Uh and said things like, I mean, that's about the 897 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,160 Speaker 1: best deal I've ever heard in my life. You get 898 00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: rich and you live forever. All you gotta do is 899 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,719 Speaker 1: give me your rent money. Um fucking awesome that this 900 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,640 Speaker 1: is legal. I can't I can't overstate what a good 901 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:57,040 Speaker 1: thing it is. That this is fine. God states, Yeah, 902 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:02,960 Speaker 1: we're perfect society. So Bill Perkins, an administrator for PTL, 903 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: resigned his position in nineteen seventy eight after he grew 904 00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,000 Speaker 1: disturbed by the fact that money seemed to be growing 905 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,920 Speaker 1: increasingly central to the decisions that Jim Baker made. So 906 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:12,400 Speaker 1: a lot of the people who like sign up with 907 00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,080 Speaker 1: them early on will say that this was a legitimate 908 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,480 Speaker 1: religious enterprise at first, and Baker really believed hard and 909 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 1: it it turned into a grift, and that maybe that's 910 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: probably true. Like I'm not an expert on it. I'm 911 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,759 Speaker 1: so critical. I guess of all of these guys that 912 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,399 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to believe Jim Baker ever had 913 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,920 Speaker 1: good intentions. But he may. He may have a lot 914 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,319 Speaker 1: of people believed he did, and there were folks in 915 00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,719 Speaker 1: the seventies who were like, you have changed, and I 916 00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,400 Speaker 1: can't be a part of this anymore, especially earlier on 917 00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,760 Speaker 1: going after you know, doing the puppet shows and everything 918 00:50:43,280 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 1: seems pretty, you know, pretty legitimately. Yeah, I had trouble 919 00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:48,799 Speaker 1: believing that the puppet shows were a grift, you know, 920 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,520 Speaker 1: no drifts with puppets. Hopefully he wasn't asking the kids 921 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,759 Speaker 1: to mail money to him, no, no, um and And 922 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,360 Speaker 1: Perkins later claimed, quote, Jim Baker had a knack with 923 00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,560 Speaker 1: a microphone, and I think he began with good intentions, 924 00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,160 Speaker 1: but he let hour and money get to his head. Now. 925 00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: Mr Perkins later told The New York Times about the 926 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,520 Speaker 1: moment he realized that something had changed with Jim. Quote. 927 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:11,280 Speaker 1: Jim used to quote from Psalm's thirty seven four Delight thyself. 928 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: Also in the Lord, and He shall give you the 929 00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,480 Speaker 1: desires of thine heart. I argue that the scripture does 930 00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 1: not mean worldly wealth and fame or fancy cars are 931 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:22,080 Speaker 1: big houses. Mr Perkins said, it means inner peace and joy. 932 00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: The desires ought to be God's desires, not man's. Mr 933 00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:29,200 Speaker 1: Baker's defiant response, said Mr Perkins, was to quote another 934 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,879 Speaker 1: bit of scripture, which he intended to end the conversation. 935 00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:35,400 Speaker 1: Touch not God's anointed, and do his profits no harm. 936 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:40,160 Speaker 1: So Jim has had a bit of a change at 937 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 1: this point. You can say it's gone to his head, 938 00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:46,440 Speaker 1: you know, whether however he started, he is now calling 939 00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:49,040 Speaker 1: himself a prophet and using that to shut down debate 940 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:57,000 Speaker 1: with his loyal followers. So that's not a great thing. Um, 941 00:51:57,120 --> 00:52:00,359 Speaker 1: Although I am going to get that tattooed on my chest. Uh, 942 00:52:00,360 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: and I'll just I will just point to it defiantly 943 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,319 Speaker 1: when Sophie tells me not to swing machetes around in 944 00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:09,640 Speaker 1: the recording studio, I do. Yeah, yeah, exactly, Touch not. 945 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: God's annoying it. You know, do as profits no harm 946 00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,960 Speaker 1: when they're doing harm by recklessly endangering the recording studio. 947 00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: Whether or not he was a profit, Jim was definitely profitable, 948 00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:23,520 Speaker 1: which is a line I was proud of. Um. So 949 00:52:25,400 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. I desperately need praise 950 00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 1: as I as I grow into the cult leader that 951 00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:36,520 Speaker 1: Jim Baker has convinced me I can become. So And 952 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 1: by the way, do you want to really prove your 953 00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: faith in the Lord, why don't you send two dollars 954 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:48,160 Speaker 1: to bastards behind the bad Just address an envelope, Sophie. 955 00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,560 Speaker 1: This is the only way. By the end of nine, 956 00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:56,960 Speaker 1: revenue was more than four million dollars a month and 957 00:52:57,080 --> 00:53:00,319 Speaker 1: expenses were only around a million. So on paper, that's 958 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:06,239 Speaker 1: a pretty pretty solvent business, right, Yeah, you would think 959 00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: that you could. You could do a lot of ministering 960 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: with that kind of a yeah, all tax free. Um. 961 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,799 Speaker 1: And for a while, Baker pumped the extra money into 962 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,440 Speaker 1: funding new shows and new hosts and local content and 963 00:53:19,480 --> 00:53:21,560 Speaker 1: different communities around the country and around the world, and 964 00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,560 Speaker 1: it looked like he was building PTL into the Christian 965 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,520 Speaker 1: equivalent of twenty first century Fox. Like there's a period 966 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,160 Speaker 1: where it looks like, oh my god, Jim is going 967 00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:33,120 Speaker 1: to create like a media empire on par with any 968 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,640 Speaker 1: of the major networks, on par with something like, yeah, 969 00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:40,080 Speaker 1: twenty century Fox. Um. But then just as he's like 970 00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,440 Speaker 1: on his way to becoming the Prosperity Gospels Rupert Murdoch, 971 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:47,240 Speaker 1: he suddenly pulls away and heads in a completely different direction. 972 00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,879 Speaker 1: You know what this direction is, Vick, I think I do? 973 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:56,120 Speaker 1: I think thank you was watching what Walt Disney was up. Yeah, 974 00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:01,040 Speaker 1: he decides to become Christian Walt Disney. UM. Yeah, which 975 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,320 Speaker 1: is an interesting move. UM. In nineteen seventy, the Bakers 976 00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,200 Speaker 1: broke ground on Heritage USA. Now, this was Jim Baker's 977 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,560 Speaker 1: most ambitious plan yet, and it would eventually become the 978 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,600 Speaker 1: third most popular amusement park in the United States, right 979 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:19,040 Speaker 1: after Disneyland and Disney World. So this is a huge yeah. 980 00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:22,200 Speaker 1: Built on twe acres of Carolina Land, Heritage USA was 981 00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:25,720 Speaker 1: initially planned as almost a whole enclosed Christian society built 982 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:28,320 Speaker 1: in the twin images of Jim Baker and Walt Disney. 983 00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,640 Speaker 1: His planning went along, Jim's ambitions expanded. He wanted to 984 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,640 Speaker 1: include a university, a day school, a campground, and even 985 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,640 Speaker 1: a hospital in a nursing home. The whole estimated bill 986 00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:39,880 Speaker 1: for this was well over a hundred million dollars of 987 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:44,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy eight money. UM. Baker wanted the main work 988 00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,839 Speaker 1: done in less than six months, which was just rank lunacy. UM. 989 00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,160 Speaker 1: He failed to secure the fifty million dollar loan he 990 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,480 Speaker 1: needed to make his dreams come true. So Baker reigned 991 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,240 Speaker 1: in his faith and started small, promising the construction company 992 00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,960 Speaker 1: that PTL would fall no further than five hundred thousand 993 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,080 Speaker 1: dollars in payments behind during the construct action, UM, and 994 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,200 Speaker 1: which is like, it's incredible. They were like, yeah, you 995 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:05,799 Speaker 1: can be half a million dollars in debt to us 996 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,879 Speaker 1: and that's fine, um, And he can't even stick to that. 997 00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:11,239 Speaker 1: By month three, they had blown past that by a 998 00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:13,800 Speaker 1: factor of four and owed more than two million dollars 999 00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:16,600 Speaker 1: to the company. And this calamity was all caused by 1000 00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:19,520 Speaker 1: Jim Baker. UM. Soon the finances of the network were 1001 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,919 Speaker 1: an absolute crisis. PTL started laying off employees and making 1002 00:55:23,000 --> 00:55:26,120 Speaker 1: up the shortfall in labor by calling for Saturday work sessions, 1003 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,360 Speaker 1: which were unpaid. Employees were told that showing up to 1004 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:32,000 Speaker 1: work for free would be a vivid illustration of who 1005 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,480 Speaker 1: was committed to God and who was not. Oh my god, 1006 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,359 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I didn't know he fleeced his own 1007 00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,000 Speaker 1: workers to Oh he sure as shit did. Oh my gosh, yeah, 1008 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: he absolutely. He's a big fan of unpaid labor, which 1009 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:49,479 Speaker 1: there are other terms for, but I have forgotten them. Um. Now. 1010 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,360 Speaker 1: At the same time all this was happening, Baker talked 1011 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:55,120 Speaker 1: the board of his company into tripling his salary. He 1012 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:58,399 Speaker 1: argued that basically, UM who was the fucking big guy 1013 00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:02,880 Speaker 1: at the time, the the Johnny Carson. He was like Johnny, 1014 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 1: I work harder than Johnny Carson and he makes more 1015 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,759 Speaker 1: than me. Like the fox up with that, So they 1016 00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:09,839 Speaker 1: triple his salary. And at the same time as they 1017 00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 1: triple his salary, they stopped reporting on the church's finances 1018 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,239 Speaker 1: to the press. They said they had once been a 1019 00:56:14,320 --> 00:56:16,600 Speaker 1: very open operation that would tell you like where their 1020 00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:19,120 Speaker 1: money was going and being used on, and they just 1021 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 1: suddenly stopped doing that. Uh, and this has no effect 1022 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,400 Speaker 1: on their followers. Money continues pouring into the baker pockets 1023 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 1: and increasing denominations. When Jim needed to look magnanimous, he 1024 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,560 Speaker 1: would write letters to the board and demand that they 1025 00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,000 Speaker 1: cut his salary by and then he'd used company money 1026 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:38,000 Speaker 1: to buy himself fancy rich guy toys from the book PTL. 1027 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 1: Only three weeks later, this is after firing a bunch 1028 00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:43,439 Speaker 1: of people, he used six thousand dollars of PTLS money 1029 00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,359 Speaker 1: for a down payment on a houseboat, a forty three 1030 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,160 Speaker 1: ft drifter with two bedrooms, a kitchen, bathroom, television, and 1031 00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,400 Speaker 1: gas grill. The total price for the house boat was 1032 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:55,839 Speaker 1: thirty dollars, so at the same time Jim bought that boat, 1033 00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,200 Speaker 1: he's writing letters to his flock, begging them for donations 1034 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,440 Speaker 1: and telling his workers that they have to work for free. 1035 00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,720 Speaker 1: And the terms he would use in these, like please 1036 00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,680 Speaker 1: for money from his followers were imminent and apocalyptic. Unless 1037 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:10,279 Speaker 1: God performs a financial miracle, this could be the last 1038 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,799 Speaker 1: letter you receive from me. It's like this is these 1039 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,160 Speaker 1: are the kind of things he's putting in his Yeah, 1040 00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:17,680 Speaker 1: he wind about the two and a half million dollar 1041 00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: construction bill as if it had like something that had 1042 00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,720 Speaker 1: suddenly been slammed upon them, rather than them deliberately going 1043 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 1: over budget. Uh. He lied that Tammy and I are 1044 00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,720 Speaker 1: giving every penny of our life savings to PTL And again, 1045 00:57:29,760 --> 00:57:31,640 Speaker 1: this is the same month that he uses Ptail's money 1046 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,800 Speaker 1: to buy a houseboat. So this is total grift by 1047 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:40,000 Speaker 1: this point, right if it was. Yeah, by one, Jim 1048 00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: and Tammy had a thoroughly acclimated to their new lives 1049 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:46,240 Speaker 1: as hideously wealthy monuments to God's generosity. Here's a clip 1050 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,160 Speaker 1: from one of their episodes in nineteen eighty one that 1051 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,960 Speaker 1: really lays the whole prosperity gospel thing out. And I 1052 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:52,680 Speaker 1: think this one may be new to you because it's 1053 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,120 Speaker 1: just I mean, there's thousands of powers of this. No 1054 00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:55,919 Speaker 1: one can listen to all of it. But I'm gonna 1055 00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,080 Speaker 1: play this. Um, I'm gonna send you this clip and 1056 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: I want you to yeah, well, um, you know, I'm 1057 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: gonna shoot this to via Skype. Then I'll tell you 1058 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:08,280 Speaker 1: the time stamps. We've got to start enjoying God again. 1059 00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:10,800 Speaker 1: I really do. I think we need to say, Lord, 1060 00:58:10,880 --> 00:58:12,760 Speaker 1: look at this beautiful lake out here. I look out 1061 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,480 Speaker 1: this window here and I see that blue sky today 1062 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,480 Speaker 1: and I see the beautiful water, and I say, Lord, 1063 00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,920 Speaker 1: you made that lake for me to enjoy. Jim, can 1064 00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:23,920 Speaker 1: I tell you a little miracle? I just want to 1065 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:25,760 Speaker 1: tell you a little people, a little miracle about what 1066 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:28,320 Speaker 1: happened with this house. We shouldn't have this house. That 1067 00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,520 Speaker 1: is really the honest truth, because in all in all 1068 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,200 Speaker 1: human when you think of it, in the human aspect, 1069 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,680 Speaker 1: it was impossible for us to ever get this home 1070 00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,240 Speaker 1: at all. And I had prayed and I said, now, Lord, 1071 00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:42,200 Speaker 1: you know, Jim and I had to had to have 1072 00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 1: a new home. We need to be out of our 1073 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,000 Speaker 1: old one. And within like three weeks, and it was 1074 00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,000 Speaker 1: just just didn't know what to do. We were just 1075 00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:50,160 Speaker 1: and I said, oh God, you know, I said, I 1076 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,000 Speaker 1: couldn't figure off I want to swimming pool or lake, 1077 00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,640 Speaker 1: but I knew we'd never had either, and I wanted one, 1078 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,400 Speaker 1: please Lord. So I said, well, Lord, I don't know 1079 00:58:57,440 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: what to ask. Yeah, so I said, you give us 1080 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,400 Speaker 1: what'll make us happy. I knew we couldn't swim in 1081 00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:04,880 Speaker 1: the pool, you know, in the in the winter, and 1082 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,600 Speaker 1: yet I knew we could see the lake all year around. 1083 00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,080 Speaker 1: So I couldn't make up my mind. You know what 1084 00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,400 Speaker 1: God did, He said, I want you to have both 1085 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,480 Speaker 1: of them, and he gave us a beautiful pool out 1086 00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,480 Speaker 1: there plus the lake out back to Jim. Isn't that 1087 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:25,480 Speaker 1: just like the Lord? M hmm, Yeah, swimming pool or lake. 1088 00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:27,840 Speaker 1: We need water. We know we need water. We know 1089 00:59:27,920 --> 00:59:36,840 Speaker 1: we need water. Yeah, it's open and no one bats 1090 00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:39,040 Speaker 1: in either. You know, they're like, why didn't Why didn't 1091 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,400 Speaker 1: everybody just get up and walk out hearing that? Because 1092 00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:45,720 Speaker 1: this is how God works. He wants you to have this. 1093 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,080 Speaker 1: He wants all of you to have this. We I 1094 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,680 Speaker 1: think people talk a lot when they like complain about, 1095 00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,760 Speaker 1: you know, the lack of like class consciousness in the 1096 00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: United States. How every poor American thinks of themselves like 1097 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,280 Speaker 1: a temporarily embarrassed mill you are. This really illustrates what 1098 01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:06,040 Speaker 1: that means emotionally these people, don't You would think they 1099 01:00:06,040 --> 01:00:09,560 Speaker 1: would hate like people like in the in the fucking seventies, 1100 01:00:09,680 --> 01:00:12,560 Speaker 1: is like stagflation is hitting and like the economy is 1101 01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,320 Speaker 1: in the shifter and they live in the middle of nowhere, 1102 01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,880 Speaker 1: and like the Japanese economy is eating us manufacturing alive 1103 01:00:17,920 --> 01:00:21,040 Speaker 1: and people are like out of work. And seeing this 1104 01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:23,480 Speaker 1: person talking about like we just couldn't decide between and 1105 01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:25,720 Speaker 1: God provided us with a swimmer pool and the lake, 1106 01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:28,760 Speaker 1: you would think that would infuriate them, but it's just 1107 01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:30,720 Speaker 1: like it hasn't hit them yet, or hasn't you know, 1108 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,440 Speaker 1: God hasn't touched them enough yet. So yeah, sending the 1109 01:00:34,520 --> 01:00:38,000 Speaker 1: checks in and then yeah, this will be their life. 1110 01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:43,840 Speaker 1: It's something else. It's really something else. But like, yeah, 1111 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:45,880 Speaker 1: you have to understand how like blatant about it, like 1112 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:50,640 Speaker 1: they're not pretending to live humble lives here exactly. Yeah, 1113 01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:55,919 Speaker 1: Um it's awesome. Um now, yeah, so this is good 1114 01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:58,400 Speaker 1: for her part. Tammy Face seems to have had trouble 1115 01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:03,400 Speaker 1: with with some aspect of them The gigantic, grifty nature 1116 01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: of all of this. She started taking massive doses of 1117 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,400 Speaker 1: valium for stress and became horribly addicted to a variety 1118 01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: of of of of drugs. She and Jim both put 1119 01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,480 Speaker 1: on weight because again I think they are losing their 1120 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:21,000 Speaker 1: souls and becoming monsters. Uh, And they start taking off 1121 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,960 Speaker 1: that weight with what would become a series of different 1122 01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,040 Speaker 1: diet and weight loss programs, and they talk about all 1123 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 1: of this openly on their show, their successes and failures 1124 01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 1: and challenges, and of course then they're able to like 1125 01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:32,520 Speaker 1: advertise for different like diet programs and stuff and books, 1126 01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:37,800 Speaker 1: and yeah, it always works for them. So the whole 1127 01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,960 Speaker 1: situation could have stayed this way probably forever, if Jim 1128 01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,480 Speaker 1: Baker had been capable of even mild amounts of self control. 1129 01:01:46,040 --> 01:01:49,520 Speaker 1: But he was not. PTLS content was dictated almost entirely 1130 01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:51,120 Speaker 1: by his impulses, which is kind of the same thing 1131 01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:55,040 Speaker 1: with Alex Jones today. Um. He would regularly announce new initiatives, 1132 01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,360 Speaker 1: new product lines, new new shows for on his network, 1133 01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,160 Speaker 1: live on the air, and like his crew would have 1134 01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:03,800 Speaker 1: to live figure out how to like meet these things 1135 01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,560 Speaker 1: that he was introducing and like make them work. And 1136 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,120 Speaker 1: this was part of the show's charm and dynamism. It 1137 01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,560 Speaker 1: was part of why he was successful, but it also 1138 01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,400 Speaker 1: led to gigantic problems, like Jim doubling the size of 1139 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,560 Speaker 1: Heritage USA. Well huge amounts of it were still under construction. 1140 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Um you know, committing to building a five room hotel 1141 01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,000 Speaker 1: in a water park, and you know, then needing to 1142 01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,560 Speaker 1: find more money. Um, so Jim would flog his viewers 1143 01:02:26,560 --> 01:02:30,919 Speaker 1: mercilessly for more donations. As former PTL security chief don 1144 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,600 Speaker 1: hardis sterlcalled quote, we had a cash office, and at 1145 01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,520 Speaker 1: times there was certainly more money in it than I 1146 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,280 Speaker 1: could imagine. People would send us mink coats, diamond rings, deeds. 1147 01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:43,840 Speaker 1: I mean, we got all sorts of donations. It's okay, wild, 1148 01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:47,320 Speaker 1: but this works. It's just the most artless grift in 1149 01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,000 Speaker 1: the world. And that's why it works. It's fucking amazing 1150 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,040 Speaker 1: to me, like l Ron Hubbard has to make a 1151 01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:56,160 Speaker 1: fucking religion to get your money, and Jim Baker's just like, no, 1152 01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,280 Speaker 1: just send me the deed. Dear fucking house. I need 1153 01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:05,560 Speaker 1: another lake. I'm gonna build a hotel next to my lake. 1154 01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:11,880 Speaker 1: Fucking amazing, need more water. But it still wasn't enough. 1155 01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,840 Speaker 1: All this money wasn't enough. The demands of Baker's new 1156 01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,000 Speaker 1: empire were too high, and in the nineteen eighties, he 1157 01:03:17,040 --> 01:03:20,080 Speaker 1: started asking his followers to pay a thousand dollars each 1158 01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:25,320 Speaker 1: for lifetime partnerships. Now, these lifetime partnerships would earn them 1159 01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,240 Speaker 1: a three night stay at the new hotel that he 1160 01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:29,800 Speaker 1: built on his land. And on the surface, this could 1161 01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,280 Speaker 1: be a great idea. You know, it's basically a timeshare. 1162 01:03:32,360 --> 01:03:34,640 Speaker 1: But they barely get any time there and they pay 1163 01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of money. But Jim couldn't even abide by, 1164 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,720 Speaker 1: like like, this is a This could be a perfectly 1165 01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,640 Speaker 1: legal grift, but Jim had to break the law. He 1166 01:03:43,840 --> 01:03:46,880 Speaker 1: vastly oversold these partnerships until he wound up with more 1167 01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:50,560 Speaker 1: partnerships than his hotel could possibly host a year, sixties, 1168 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 1: six thousand of them. And again, this is a five 1169 01:03:56,120 --> 01:04:01,080 Speaker 1: room hotel. Like you do the math. Now there were 1170 01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:04,480 Speaker 1: other grifts too. He started offering David and Goliath statues 1171 01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:06,200 Speaker 1: to his viewers, and he would tell them these were 1172 01:04:06,240 --> 01:04:09,280 Speaker 1: an investment because the statues were like works of art 1173 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,640 Speaker 1: that were worth a thousand dollars each, and he sold 1174 01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:13,960 Speaker 1: them for just a hundred and twenty five dollars, but 1175 01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,600 Speaker 1: they were really ten dollar pieces of like poorly crafted 1176 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,760 Speaker 1: metal bullshit. Um, it all works, though he makes a 1177 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,720 Speaker 1: shipload of money, but he is now committing fraud. Like 1178 01:04:24,480 --> 01:04:26,560 Speaker 1: up to this point he was really all within the 1179 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,640 Speaker 1: lines of the law other than writing bad checks. And 1180 01:04:28,640 --> 01:04:30,760 Speaker 1: they're never gonna like the money wound up being there, 1181 01:04:30,800 --> 01:04:36,479 Speaker 1: So it's fine. He has crossed a legal line now. 1182 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,720 Speaker 1: And all of this blatant fraud earned PTL the attention 1183 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,080 Speaker 1: of the Charlotte Observer, a local newspaper that locked its 1184 01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:45,800 Speaker 1: teeth onto the legs of the Baker operation and held 1185 01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:49,760 Speaker 1: on for years like they really some fucking world. They 1186 01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:51,680 Speaker 1: win a Pulitzer for this, Like they are they right, 1187 01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:54,680 Speaker 1: like think probably like way over a thousand articles by 1188 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,760 Speaker 1: the time this is all done. Um. Like they they 1189 01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,880 Speaker 1: tear into Baker and like exhaustively detail every way in 1190 01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,800 Speaker 1: which he's breaking the law, every shady thing he's doing. Um, 1191 01:05:05,840 --> 01:05:08,240 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a great thing that they do. But 1192 01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,000 Speaker 1: they didn't catch everything right away. And one of the 1193 01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:13,520 Speaker 1: things that they didn't catch when they started reporting on 1194 01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,760 Speaker 1: the financial crimes was the fact that Jim Baker committed 1195 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:19,960 Speaker 1: an even worse crime in December of nineteen eighty, have 1196 01:05:20,080 --> 01:05:24,520 Speaker 1: you heard about the rape that Jim Baker committed? Yeah? This? Uh? 1197 01:05:24,640 --> 01:05:29,720 Speaker 1: Is this Jessica Han? Jessica Han? Yeah, yeah. So Jessica 1198 01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:33,040 Speaker 1: had grown up, you know, in the church or in 1199 01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:35,480 Speaker 1: the Pentecostal movement. She was twenty one years old in 1200 01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,840 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty and for her entire childhood, basically, Jim Baker 1201 01:05:38,880 --> 01:05:41,520 Speaker 1: had been her Mr Rogers. He was the moral center 1202 01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:43,720 Speaker 1: of her universe. Like that is the way that she 1203 01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,120 Speaker 1: looked at him, like he he was he was a 1204 01:05:46,240 --> 01:05:49,600 Speaker 1: the right arm of God to her um. And she 1205 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,120 Speaker 1: was elated when she got a job as the church secretary, 1206 01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:55,520 Speaker 1: which basically seems she basically was working as the Baker's nanny, right, 1207 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:57,760 Speaker 1: that was like a big part of her job. And 1208 01:05:57,800 --> 01:05:59,640 Speaker 1: one December day, when Tammy was out of the house 1209 01:05:59,640 --> 01:06:03,080 Speaker 1: conduct a telethon, Jim called her into the office. Han 1210 01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,360 Speaker 1: later told an interviewer quote, Jim Baker comes up and says, 1211 01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:08,880 Speaker 1: forget about the kids. The bodyguards are outside the door. 1212 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:11,680 Speaker 1: He said, listen to me, Jessica, when you helped the shepherd, 1213 01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:14,680 Speaker 1: you helped the sheep. And he said, my wife is 1214 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,240 Speaker 1: having an affair with the choir director and I need 1215 01:06:17,280 --> 01:06:19,560 Speaker 1: you right now to make me feel like a man. 1216 01:06:20,240 --> 01:06:22,200 Speaker 1: And I was a virgin and people find that hard 1217 01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:23,760 Speaker 1: to believe, but when you're raised in the church at 1218 01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,520 Speaker 1: fourteen on, that was just the way it is. Um. Now, 1219 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:30,840 Speaker 1: Baker wasn't alone. One of his employees, a guy named 1220 01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,840 Speaker 1: John Fletcher, was there too. Fletcher offered Han a drink 1221 01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,800 Speaker 1: which had something probably G HB in it uh and 1222 01:06:36,840 --> 01:06:38,800 Speaker 1: Han didn't pass out, but she was in a very 1223 01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:42,280 Speaker 1: altered state when Baker made his move. Quote. So Jim 1224 01:06:42,320 --> 01:06:44,400 Speaker 1: Baker ripped off the bedspread and said, you know, my 1225 01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:46,400 Speaker 1: wife doesn't make me feel like a man anymore. And 1226 01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:48,240 Speaker 1: you know when you helped the shepherd, you helped the sheep. 1227 01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 1: And so it hurt like hell. And then after that, 1228 01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,320 Speaker 1: John Fletcher comes in, who was the middleman, and said, 1229 01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, you can't just be with Jim Baker. You've 1230 01:06:55,880 --> 01:06:57,880 Speaker 1: got to be with me. He threw me on the 1231 01:06:57,920 --> 01:06:59,880 Speaker 1: floor head back. I had blood coming out of my 1232 01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:02,320 Speaker 1: act and you know he just went nuts on me. 1233 01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,560 Speaker 1: So this is a horrific violence. Yeah, this is a 1234 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:10,840 Speaker 1: horrific rape. Like this is not just like it's usually portrayed, 1235 01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:13,080 Speaker 1: even by kind of like mainstream news today, like scene 1236 01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:15,000 Speaker 1: ended the interview, and like so a lot of mainstream 1237 01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:16,520 Speaker 1: news did a good job of covering this, but like 1238 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,520 Speaker 1: a lot of times they'll say, like, you know, there 1239 01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,000 Speaker 1: were allegations that it was non consensual, that there were 1240 01:07:21,040 --> 01:07:24,280 Speaker 1: allegations that this was a violent drug rape. Like this 1241 01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,280 Speaker 1: is as as bad a rape as as it gets, 1242 01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, Um, this is a horrific crime committed by 1243 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,880 Speaker 1: Jim Baker and his guy John Fletcher. So it's bad, 1244 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:38,200 Speaker 1: Oh my god? Yeah. Um, Now, Jessica Han kept quiet 1245 01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:40,600 Speaker 1: for eight years because how the funk like God's right 1246 01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:43,280 Speaker 1: hand man is rape you? Like, how do you begin 1247 01:07:43,560 --> 01:07:47,600 Speaker 1: process that? Yeah, it's it's rough. Um. And Jim Baker 1248 01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,360 Speaker 1: paid her twenty dollars of hush money up front, which 1249 01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,880 Speaker 1: he told her was show she could get counseling. Uh. 1250 01:07:52,880 --> 01:07:54,640 Speaker 1: He would eventually pay more than a quarter of a 1251 01:07:54,680 --> 01:07:57,760 Speaker 1: million dollars of church funds to Jessica Han. And that 1252 01:07:57,920 --> 01:08:00,680 Speaker 1: vic is where we're gonna end on part one. Right, 1253 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:04,840 Speaker 1: How you how you feeling? It's a lot to take 1254 01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:08,240 Speaker 1: in there. This is a lot the story if Jim 1255 01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:10,960 Speaker 1: Baker is a lot. It's been drifted a long time 1256 01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:14,160 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and he's like the ultimate illustration of 1257 01:08:14,160 --> 01:08:16,479 Speaker 1: the the fact that like hurt people hurt people like 1258 01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:20,559 Speaker 1: this kid. Everything scans right, it's not hard to see. 1259 01:08:21,920 --> 01:08:27,400 Speaker 1: Uh god, mm hmm. Yeah. I'm curious because I don't 1260 01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,960 Speaker 1: I guess nothing really came. I mean, I don't want 1261 01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:31,680 Speaker 1: to jump ahead here, but you know, but like, I'm 1262 01:08:31,720 --> 01:08:34,080 Speaker 1: just curious about what happened with that rape, if that 1263 01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:37,160 Speaker 1: uh like the bodyguard guy had to go to jail 1264 01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:39,759 Speaker 1: or anything like that. But oh no, he died before 1265 01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:45,040 Speaker 1: Jessica uh came forward. Yeah, so he really he really 1266 01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,640 Speaker 1: got yeah. Um, but also there's never criminal charges. I 1267 01:08:48,680 --> 01:08:50,439 Speaker 1: don't think his result of that. She doesn't like really 1268 01:08:50,520 --> 01:08:53,280 Speaker 1: press them, you know, right, she comes out in the 1269 01:08:53,280 --> 01:09:03,000 Speaker 1: media about it later. Uh yeah. So well, yeah, fun story. 1270 01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:08,280 Speaker 1: Fun story of the United States. Um, a country crafted 1271 01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:13,240 Speaker 1: in a lab to allow bad people to avoid consequences exactly. 1272 01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:17,400 Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's fucking rules man. Where can people 1273 01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:18,920 Speaker 1: find you on the internet? What are your what are 1274 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:22,280 Speaker 1: your plugs? You can check I would go to my YouTube, 1275 01:09:23,200 --> 01:09:25,720 Speaker 1: check my channel there. You can see all my Jim 1276 01:09:25,720 --> 01:09:29,639 Speaker 1: Baker videos there and the endless amounts of Donald Trump videos. 1277 01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,679 Speaker 1: Grifters got a lot of a lot of stuff there. 1278 01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,439 Speaker 1: Um there. You can go to Twitter, Facebook, you know, 1279 01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:39,840 Speaker 1: I's type my name in there. I am there. We 1280 01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:45,640 Speaker 1: are all right. Check out vic um it's it's important. 1281 01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:50,960 Speaker 1: Uh beautiful horror. I love it. Uh. And check out 1282 01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,360 Speaker 1: me somewhere. No one knows where. No one's ever found 1283 01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:56,960 Speaker 1: me on the internet, but the legends say that if 1284 01:09:57,000 --> 01:09:59,400 Speaker 1: you if you hold a cont shell to your ear 1285 01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:04,719 Speaker 1: while standing on a frigid Oregon coastline in the dead 1286 01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:12,200 Speaker 1: of midwinter, you can sometimes hear me tweet. So nope, nope, nope, 1287 01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:17,240 Speaker 1: that's not accurate. That is I'm fairly certain that's accurate. 1288 01:10:18,920 --> 01:10:23,400 Speaker 1: That is not true. Okay, Well, unfortunately no one knows 1289 01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:24,920 Speaker 1: what the truth is. So we've just got to roll 1290 01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:28,120 Speaker 1: on in the episode for the day. All right, Well, 1291 01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,280 Speaker 1: thanks for having me on. Hope you uh hope you 1292 01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:36,200 Speaker 1: get your tolt together in a retirement. Yeah, yeah, I'll 1293 01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:36,559 Speaker 1: donate