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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. This week we're going to

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Speaker 2: check in on our guests from season two to hear

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Speaker 2: how they're doing a year later.

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Speaker 1: First, a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: In the sessions you'll hear, all names have been changed

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Speaker 1: for the privacy of our guests. So today we're catching

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Speaker 1: up with Jennifer and Jennifer's episode was called Jennifer's Fiance's

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Speaker 1: Instagram Flirtations. Jennifer had caught her fiance messaging other women

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Speaker 1: inappropriately on Instagram, and she felt stuck about how to

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Speaker 1: address this with him. She also had a son from

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Speaker 1: a previous marriage and her fiance had kids as well,

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Speaker 1: and they were trying to blend the families. But she

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Speaker 1: was in a financially insecure position, and she worried that

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Speaker 1: she was dependent on her fiance and therefore had little recourse,

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Speaker 1: and her narrative throughout was very passive. The way she

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Speaker 1: told her story made it seem like things just happened

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Speaker 1: to her and that she had no agency in any

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Speaker 1: of the things that were going on in her life,

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Speaker 1: and that made her feel helpless. And so we helped

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Speaker 1: her to see how her own narrative about her life

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Speaker 1: was keeping her in the passenger seat and preventing her

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Speaker 1: from really taking charge of her decisions. And here's a

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Speaker 1: reminder of what was going on.

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Speaker 3: Part of me's scared to find out if there's anything

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Speaker 3: else that I don't know about. I'm scared to discover

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Speaker 3: another lie because I feel like if there was another lie,

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Speaker 3: that that would be the deal breaker. And then it's

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Speaker 3: like all these kids, all these kids are involved. I

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Speaker 3: guess a part of me is scared if his true

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Speaker 3: feelings came out, like, yeah, I love you, but I'm

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Speaker 3: not in love. I feel so powerless in a way

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Speaker 3: because of my financial situation. I feel like if I

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Speaker 3: did uncover that this wasn't something that I ultimately wanted,

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Speaker 3: I'm suck.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a

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Speaker 2: short break, So now let's hear how Jennifer's doing a

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Speaker 2: year later.

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Speaker 4: Hi, Laurie and Guy, this is Jennifer calling in to

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Speaker 4: give an update about how my year has been since

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Speaker 4: our session about my relationship with Dan. At this point,

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Speaker 4: we are doing really well, better than ever actually, and

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Speaker 4: are still aiming to get married next October, we hope.

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Speaker 4: But it got worse before it got better. I will

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Speaker 4: say he did another one of his I think we'd

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Speaker 4: be better off living separately, raising our kids separately. Splitting

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Speaker 4: up move last April or so, and it was the

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Speaker 4: worst that it had been. Didn't vacillate and it got

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Speaker 4: to the point to where we told the kids. My

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Speaker 4: son in particular was sad. It was the worst day

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Speaker 4: of my life telling my son. But in true character

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Speaker 4: to Dan a week or so later, reneged on it

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Speaker 4: and you know, wanted to really work things out, and

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Speaker 4: at that point it was ultimate ultimatum time for me

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Speaker 4: and I put us immediately into therapy and it has

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Speaker 4: been really great. It was kind of me dragging him,

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Speaker 4: kicking and screaming, but he was very willing to do

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Speaker 4: it to keep me, and I've seen a big change

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Speaker 4: in him through the therapy process, and it really was

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Speaker 4: the first time that I really saw that he was

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Speaker 4: able to get his true emotions out. There was some anger,

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Speaker 4: some grievance about the loss of his identity and how

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Speaker 4: fast we had a child, and his post divorce stress

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Speaker 4: and his life being taken over all of a sudden

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Speaker 4: by a brand new family, and that was really at

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Speaker 4: the root of everything that was going on, And it

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Speaker 4: gave me an opportunity to express how serious and deeply

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Speaker 4: wounded I was with the vacillation in him and just

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Speaker 4: laying out that I absolutely am not going to tolerate that,

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Speaker 4: that this was the last chance. And through the end

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Speaker 4: of it, he has convinced me that he is over

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Speaker 4: the grief that he felt and he wants this with us.

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Speaker 4: He had really good insight when I went away for

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Speaker 4: a few weekends that he knows that he does not

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Speaker 4: want to be alone and how much he loves me,

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Speaker 4: he wants our family. So I trust him. We're in

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Speaker 4: a good place. I'd be lying if I said I'm

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Speaker 4: one hundred percent trusting. I'm still there's still like a

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Speaker 4: five to ten percent part of me that wonders if

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Speaker 4: we're ever really going to get married and if the

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Speaker 4: rug will get pulled out. But we have set ourselves

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Speaker 4: on a good path with a therapy, and I believe

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Speaker 4: we have the communication tools through that to keep us solid.

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Speaker 4: It's really helped a lot.

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Speaker 2: But I would say the couple.

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Speaker 4: Pieces of advice that I got from the session with

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Speaker 4: you guys were One was part of the homework assignment,

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Speaker 4: which was to get into the driver's seat with the

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Speaker 4: narrative of my life. And that's just been something that

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Speaker 4: I've been trying to live by when big decisions come up,

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Speaker 4: and just thinking about myself more in an empowered place

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Speaker 4: versus a victim to my circumstance. It's his place, and

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Speaker 4: it's really helped me to goal set and think about

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Speaker 4: a vision for my life for myself. I remember Laurie saying,

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Speaker 4: no matter what happens, I have always been able to

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Speaker 4: land on my feet. I'm supported and I will be

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Speaker 4: able to do that again. So that kind of gave

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Speaker 4: me the strength and the resolve to when we did

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Speaker 4: go through that break up last April, I felt sure

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Speaker 4: that I was going to leave, that I was not

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Speaker 4: going to tolerate it, and it just set me on

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Speaker 4: a path of determination to turn my life around and

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Speaker 4: empower myself even more. And then something that guy said

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Speaker 4: that really caught me was he said, well, you know,

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Speaker 4: maybe you could get what you want from Dan, but

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Speaker 4: you have to ask for it and you have to

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Speaker 4: be clear. That really stuck with me too, about how

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Speaker 4: much I kind of defer in my relationships, and it's

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Speaker 4: helped me clarify with Dan what my needs are, what

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Speaker 4: I'm looking for in the relationship, and speak from a

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Speaker 4: place of my own wants and needs. So it was

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Speaker 4: really just kind of like a turning point, a stepping

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Speaker 4: stone for me. That session of bringing everything to light

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Speaker 4: and moving things in motion and just having a bit

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Speaker 4: of outside support for my situation. It just kind of

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Speaker 4: propelled me into an empowered place. And I finished my

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Speaker 4: computer class that I had been working on throughout the year,

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Speaker 4: and I got myself a new job. I have left

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Speaker 4: the cleaning business and I'm going to be working for

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Speaker 4: a software development company and I'm really excited and spoke

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Speaker 4: about my long term vision there and the hopes of

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Speaker 4: becoming a web developer designer someday. So I got an

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Speaker 4: entry level position, and I'm super excited, and I know

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Speaker 4: that this is going to give me the stability in

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Speaker 4: myself that if things do go sideways with Dan, that

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Speaker 4: I have a place of security to stand on financially.

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Speaker 4: So I just really want to thank you guys. It's

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Speaker 4: been an amazing year and just having this point of

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Speaker 4: reflection with you guys to just kind of brings it

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Speaker 4: full circle. I appreciate everything you do, so thank you

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Speaker 4: so much.

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Speaker 2: So I was really glad to hear Jennifer's update, and

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Speaker 2: I also have some concerns about her update. The glad

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Speaker 2: part was she definitely does seem to be in the

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Speaker 2: driver's seat. She's making decisions for herself, she's moving her

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Speaker 2: own life forward. She's having a vision for a professional

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Speaker 2: life in the kind of place where she can actually

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Speaker 2: develop a career. That sounds great. The part I'm concerned

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Speaker 2: about is the fact that there was yet another big

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Speaker 2: incident with Dan about him breaking up. I don't know

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Speaker 2: the number of this one, but you know there've been

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Speaker 2: quite a few. And while she's right to say, well,

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Speaker 2: but we're in couple's therapy, he's being able to express

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Speaker 2: himself much more will now and vent some feelings, so

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Speaker 2: he's perhaps less likely to act out by trying to

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Speaker 2: break up when he feels overwhelmed. I don't know where

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Speaker 2: he is along the learning curve, and that was quite

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Speaker 2: a consistent habit he had of feeling overwhelmed and reacting

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Speaker 2: to it by breaking up. She did say to him

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Speaker 2: that that was the absolutely last time. I do believe

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Speaker 2: her that that was the absolute last time, primarily because

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Speaker 2: she doesn't want to go through this with her son

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Speaker 2: yet another time. If it's going to be another breakup,

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Speaker 2: this will be the last time. I think she puts

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Speaker 2: her son through that with this particular person. But my

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Speaker 2: hope is that she is strong enough that if she

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Speaker 2: needs to break it off and move on, that she

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Speaker 2: would do so well.

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Speaker 1: I sure both parts of what you said, but maybe

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Speaker 1: a little bit differently. I'm really glad that she has

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Speaker 1: decided she's going to be in the driver's seat. When

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Speaker 1: she looked back on her life even before Dan, it

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Speaker 1: was sort of like all these things just happened to her.

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Speaker 1: And so now she's saying, wait a minute, I do

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Speaker 1: have agency. And I love what she did by really

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Speaker 1: moving forward and taking action and saying I need to

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Speaker 1: be able to stand on my own two feet. I

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Speaker 1: also have this interest in web design, and so I'm

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Speaker 1: going to take a computer class. I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: a job at a software company, and that's going to

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Speaker 1: put me on the path to becoming a web developer,

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Speaker 1: and that will give me more freedom because I won't

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Speaker 1: be so dependent financially on another person. The other part

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Speaker 1: of it is, though, that the breakup also concerned me

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Speaker 1: the fact that when Dan gets flooded or overwhelmed or

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Speaker 1: doesn't know what to do with his emotions, he breaks

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Speaker 1: up with her. And this one was, I think the

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Speaker 1: first time that they shared it with her son too,

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Speaker 1: so it also had an effect on the Sun. But

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Speaker 1: I was very glad to hear that. Her response to

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Speaker 1: that was, we're going to couple's therapy. And he didn't

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Speaker 1: seem to want to go and said I dragged him there,

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Speaker 1: but he went and what came out there were some

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Speaker 1: of the things that he wasn't able to share before,

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Speaker 1: things like I was still dealing with just getting out

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Speaker 1: of my divorce. It was very soon. I wasn't expecting

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Speaker 1: to have another child so soon, and really being able

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Speaker 1: to talk about what was motivating these kind of panics

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Speaker 1: that he would have, so I think that that's a

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Speaker 1: good sign that they're in therapy and doing that. I

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Speaker 1: agree with you that she trusts him at this point

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Speaker 1: more than maybe you and I do, And of course

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Speaker 1: we don't know him, but just hearing her story, it

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Speaker 1: seemed like when they talked about the Instagram incidents, he

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Speaker 1: wasn't really able to take responsibility for them back then,

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if he is now that they're

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Speaker 1: in therapy, but that's going to be really important in

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Speaker 1: terms of rebuilding their trust. Does he acknowledge that what

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Speaker 1: he did was crossing a line in their marriage instead

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Speaker 1: of making excuses for it or saying I'm sorry that

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Speaker 1: you were hurt by this, as opposed to I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: that I betrayed your trust. I'm sorry I did something wrong.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's going to be really important.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, we are more concerned than she is.

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Speaker 2: If I recall correctly, they had discussed going to couple's

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Speaker 2: therapy year ago, and he was all on board. He

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Speaker 2: wanted to do it before they were married, and yet

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Speaker 2: he didn't and then had to break up, and then

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Speaker 2: she had to drag him to it afterwards. So I

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Speaker 2: think he's someone who wants to do certain things but

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Speaker 2: is not in touch with himself, so that when the

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Speaker 2: moment happens, he kind of still acts out. And whether

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Speaker 2: this release valve of therapy will be enough to prevent

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Speaker 2: the acting out, that's the question mark which we don't

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Speaker 2: really know and maybe can't know until we hear another

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Speaker 2: update from Jennifer at some point. I think that without

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Speaker 2: therapy I would have been much more pessimistic. There is

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Speaker 2: a chance that with therapy he will be able to

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Speaker 2: find a different way to cope.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 1: I think the most optimistic thing here is that once

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Speaker 1: she realized that she would be okay if she left,

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Speaker 1: she started setting boundaries. She started speaking up. She started

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Speaker 1: saying this is what I need, this is what we need.

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Speaker 1: And she wasn't able to do that before because she thought,

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Speaker 1: if I rock the boat, I don't know what I

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Speaker 1: will do. I don't know how I will support my son.

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Speaker 1: His quality of life will change drastically. It'll be very

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Speaker 1: difficult both for me for my son, and my son

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Speaker 1: is very happy in this situation. I think there was

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Speaker 1: a lot going on in terms of the calculation she

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Speaker 1: was making, and now she doesn't have to make that

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Speaker 1: same calculation and that frees her up to say this

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Speaker 1: is okay, this is not okay. If we re establish trust,

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Speaker 1: then I want to be in this. But if we can't,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, and I will find that

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Speaker 1: with someone else.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think that change for Jennifer was absolutely huge.

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Speaker 2: She went from being such a passenger to being such

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Speaker 2: a driver in her own life and feeling very empowered

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Speaker 2: as well all around, and that I think is the

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Speaker 2: biggest news of this year that that really continued and

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Speaker 2: grew and she really does feel out, this is my life.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to make these decisions. She did set of

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Speaker 2: boundary with him. I believe she will follow through with

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Speaker 2: it if he doesn't improve sufficiently or has another breakup effort.

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Speaker 2: Jennifer got in the driver's seat a year ago and

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Speaker 2: she is very much in it.

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Speaker 1: And part of being in the driver's seat is making

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Speaker 1: sure that she doesn't compartmentalize some of the things that

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Speaker 1: would raise red flags. For example, when Dan came back

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Speaker 1: to her, he said, I don't want to be alone,

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Speaker 1: and that was his reason for coming back. Now maybe

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Speaker 1: he said more and we're just not hearing it, but

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be alone. Is not a reason

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Speaker 1: to come back, So we'd want her to really get

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Speaker 1: clear with him about why do you want to be

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Speaker 1: with me in this relationship? What made you come back,

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Speaker 1: what makes you want to be here, what makes you

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Speaker 1: want to stay? And if he isn't sure about those things,

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Speaker 1: that's something that they really need to explore in therapy

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Speaker 1: and maybe even for him and some individual therapy.

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Speaker 2: So I'm very glad that they are in therapy because

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Speaker 2: that's a great place for them to continue having these

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Speaker 2: really important discussions. Next week, we're in session with Kate,

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Speaker 2: who wants to break free from her people pleasing tendencies.

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Speaker 5: Even guiltier for leaving. I was in this impossible position

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Speaker 5: of trying to split up my time between my brother

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Speaker 5: and his family and my mom, and neither side would

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Speaker 5: be happy with the amount of time spent with them.

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Speaker 2: us email, us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

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Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

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Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you

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Speaker 5: Fission Food