1
00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:24,556
Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. On Jacob Weisberg, there is a

2
00:00:24,636 --> 00:00:27,996
Speaker 1: lack of accountability for police violence, and one part of

3
00:00:29,076 --> 00:00:32,396
Speaker 1: solving that is to give federal prosecutors more tools so

4
00:00:32,436 --> 00:00:35,636
Speaker 1: that they can actually prosecute these cases. Approximately a thousand

5
00:00:35,676 --> 00:00:39,196
Speaker 1: people are killed during police encounters in the United States

6
00:00:39,276 --> 00:00:42,516
Speaker 1: every year, and in fact, that number is held steady

7
00:00:42,556 --> 00:00:46,076
Speaker 1: for nearly twenty years. Around half of those killed are white.

8
00:00:46,996 --> 00:00:50,076
Speaker 1: Black Americans are more than twice as likely to die

9
00:00:50,076 --> 00:00:53,996
Speaker 1: at the hands of police. They are killed disproportionately to

10
00:00:54,076 --> 00:00:58,116
Speaker 1: their overall representation in the population. I'm thinking about, say,

11
00:00:58,156 --> 00:01:02,196
Speaker 1: the shooting of Fialando Castile outside Minneapolis, Tamia Rice, you know,

12
00:01:02,276 --> 00:01:04,836
Speaker 1: twelve year old boy who was shot and killed by

13
00:01:04,876 --> 00:01:07,716
Speaker 1: an officer when playing in a park in Cleveland. How

14
00:01:07,756 --> 00:01:11,876
Speaker 1: do we achieve racial justice while protecting public safety? Lawyer

15
00:01:11,996 --> 00:01:14,876
Speaker 1: cheer Rog Baines believes the federal government has a key

16
00:01:14,996 --> 00:01:17,996
Speaker 1: role to play. What exactly would you like to see

17
00:01:17,996 --> 00:01:20,956
Speaker 1: happen there? For Congress to lower the intent standard from

18
00:01:20,996 --> 00:01:23,676
Speaker 1: willfulness to recklessness so that it would be a federal

19
00:01:23,716 --> 00:01:26,676
Speaker 1: crime to recklessly deprive someone of their rights under color

20
00:01:26,716 --> 00:01:30,036
Speaker 1: of law, you know, to recklessly use successive force. For

21
00:01:30,116 --> 00:01:33,156
Speaker 1: all the Americans who died during police encounters, in less

22
00:01:33,156 --> 00:01:36,076
Speaker 1: than two percent of cases. Does an officer end up

23
00:01:36,116 --> 00:01:39,276
Speaker 1: being charged with a crime when you were at DJ

24
00:01:39,796 --> 00:01:44,916
Speaker 1: How many times that specific language of willful swart a

25
00:01:45,036 --> 00:01:48,356
Speaker 1: possible prosecution of an officer you think you felt had

26
00:01:48,356 --> 00:01:52,516
Speaker 1: done something wrong routinely that was the biggest barrier. It

27
00:01:52,596 --> 00:01:57,236
Speaker 1: was always the central concern. Cheirog Baines, who's devoted his

28
00:01:57,316 --> 00:02:01,836
Speaker 1: career to ending impunity for officers who commit crimes against citizens,

29
00:02:02,116 --> 00:02:07,436
Speaker 1: thinks we can fix this. The problem of lack of

30
00:02:07,436 --> 00:02:14,756
Speaker 1: accountability for police violence is solvable. Cherick Baines is the

31
00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:18,916
Speaker 1: director of Legal Strategies at Demos, a racial justice organization.

32
00:02:19,316 --> 00:02:22,036
Speaker 1: Before that, he worked at the US Department of Justice,

33
00:02:22,316 --> 00:02:25,076
Speaker 1: serving as senior consul to the head of the Civil

34
00:02:25,156 --> 00:02:29,836
Speaker 1: Rights Division. That's the division that investigated Ferguson, Missouri, and

35
00:02:29,996 --> 00:02:35,276
Speaker 1: sued the city for unconstitutional policing and court practices. Bains

36
00:02:35,316 --> 00:02:39,876
Speaker 1: co wrote the Ferguson report. Malcolm Gladwell spoke to bains

37
00:02:39,876 --> 00:02:42,676
Speaker 1: about what needs to be done to solve the persistent

38
00:02:42,756 --> 00:02:47,116
Speaker 1: problem of police impunity at the national level. Two critical

39
00:02:47,156 --> 00:02:50,676
Speaker 1: components are lowering the intense standard for the federal government

40
00:02:50,716 --> 00:02:54,756
Speaker 1: to prosecute active access of force criminally and using federal

41
00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:59,236
Speaker 1: consenticrees to address systemic misconduct. You've been working on this

42
00:02:59,316 --> 00:03:04,356
Speaker 1: question of how to make police better for quite some time, right, Yes, Actually,

43
00:03:04,516 --> 00:03:07,436
Speaker 1: it's been an issue that's been an issue that I've

44
00:03:07,516 --> 00:03:10,436
Speaker 1: been distressed by and wanting to do something about since

45
00:03:10,476 --> 00:03:13,716
Speaker 1: I was a young kid. Actually, the Rodney King case

46
00:03:13,756 --> 00:03:17,156
Speaker 1: happened in the beating of Rodney King. That was nineteen

47
00:03:17,236 --> 00:03:20,276
Speaker 1: ninety one. I was ten years old. And there were

48
00:03:20,276 --> 00:03:22,876
Speaker 1: a lot of high profile incidents in the nineteen nineties

49
00:03:23,516 --> 00:03:27,836
Speaker 1: with Amdurdallo, Abner Louima, and many other high profile cases

50
00:03:27,836 --> 00:03:31,356
Speaker 1: of police violence, police killings. So it's an issue I

51
00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:33,596
Speaker 1: cared about as a high schooler for sure. I can

52
00:03:33,676 --> 00:03:36,516
Speaker 1: remember that where were you in high school? Chelmsford High School.

53
00:03:36,516 --> 00:03:39,796
Speaker 1: It's a small town in Massachusetts next to the city

54
00:03:39,836 --> 00:03:42,916
Speaker 1: of Lowell, maybe about thirty thousand and thirty five thousand people.

55
00:03:43,356 --> 00:03:46,236
Speaker 1: It wasn't like you were, you know, living in la

56
00:03:46,516 --> 00:03:49,476
Speaker 1: or living in the Bronx where Amidudillo was shot. It

57
00:03:49,516 --> 00:03:53,516
Speaker 1: was you were. These were instance miles away that nonetheless

58
00:03:53,996 --> 00:03:57,316
Speaker 1: caught your attention absolutely. I mean, these were national stories

59
00:03:57,676 --> 00:04:01,196
Speaker 1: and you know, I was very interested in civil rights history,

60
00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:03,916
Speaker 1: even civil rights law, thinking about the role of lawyers

61
00:04:03,956 --> 00:04:07,236
Speaker 1: in the civil rights movement. I think I maybe juxtaposed

62
00:04:07,796 --> 00:04:11,996
Speaker 1: that history and the principles underlying that movement with what

63
00:04:12,076 --> 00:04:13,956
Speaker 1: I was seeing play out in terms of police violence

64
00:04:13,956 --> 00:04:17,196
Speaker 1: in the country at that time. And actually can remember

65
00:04:17,356 --> 00:04:20,516
Speaker 1: an organization called the Stolen Lives Project that would collect

66
00:04:20,556 --> 00:04:23,636
Speaker 1: information about the people who had been killed by police,

67
00:04:24,036 --> 00:04:28,556
Speaker 1: disproportionately young black men. That is something that I recall,

68
00:04:28,676 --> 00:04:30,636
Speaker 1: So it's something i've It's an issue I've been working

69
00:04:30,636 --> 00:04:32,156
Speaker 1: on for a long time. I ended up working on

70
00:04:32,196 --> 00:04:34,636
Speaker 1: that some more in law school, focusing on it, and then,

71
00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:37,716
Speaker 1: you know, my first job after clerking for a federal

72
00:04:37,796 --> 00:04:42,276
Speaker 1: judge was to actually prosecute police misconduct cases, including police violence.

73
00:04:42,636 --> 00:04:44,476
Speaker 1: How early on did you decide that you wanted to

74
00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:47,916
Speaker 1: become a lawyer? Depressingly early on, actually, I think I

75
00:04:47,956 --> 00:04:49,996
Speaker 1: thought in high school that had become a lawyer. What

76
00:04:50,076 --> 00:04:52,956
Speaker 1: did your family think of that decision? Well, I'm an

77
00:04:52,956 --> 00:04:57,076
Speaker 1: Indian kid and the child of immigrants, and so I

78
00:04:57,116 --> 00:04:58,996
Speaker 1: think a lot of people in that boat might relate.

79
00:04:59,036 --> 00:05:02,036
Speaker 1: My mother really wanted me to be a doctor. So

80
00:05:02,636 --> 00:05:07,516
Speaker 1: you know that a million other Indian children. Yeah, yeah,

81
00:05:07,036 --> 00:05:10,116
Speaker 1: it's a it's a common refrain, and you are short

82
00:05:10,116 --> 00:05:12,356
Speaker 1: of being a doctor. A lawyer was pretty good. So

83
00:05:13,036 --> 00:05:14,996
Speaker 1: I mean, but you know, my family wasn't focused on

84
00:05:15,036 --> 00:05:17,836
Speaker 1: these issues. These weren't the issues that they confronted, and

85
00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:19,516
Speaker 1: they cared about it in the sense that they are

86
00:05:19,596 --> 00:05:23,476
Speaker 1: generally aware. My grandmother used to describe all this work

87
00:05:23,516 --> 00:05:26,596
Speaker 1: as a community service or volunteer work, and I'd have

88
00:05:26,636 --> 00:05:27,996
Speaker 1: to tell her, no, I actually get paid to do

89
00:05:28,076 --> 00:05:32,836
Speaker 1: this job. Yes, what does being trained in the law

90
00:05:34,276 --> 00:05:38,596
Speaker 1: mean for your perspective on these issues? So, for example,

91
00:05:39,236 --> 00:05:42,556
Speaker 1: if I had a conversation with a psychologist about police

92
00:05:42,636 --> 00:05:45,876
Speaker 1: violence or a sociologist, I can imagine the kinds of

93
00:05:46,396 --> 00:05:49,276
Speaker 1: things that would they would focus on. Fact, I've read

94
00:05:49,276 --> 00:05:52,236
Speaker 1: books by sociologists on police violence. I'm just curious. Is

95
00:05:52,276 --> 00:05:56,196
Speaker 1: there something distinctive about legal training that affects the way

96
00:05:56,236 --> 00:05:59,596
Speaker 1: you interpret or make sense of this problem? Yeah? Well,

97
00:05:59,636 --> 00:06:04,156
Speaker 1: these issues and if your interest is in accountability, then

98
00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:06,996
Speaker 1: we have certain mechanisms of accountability. You know. There are

99
00:06:07,036 --> 00:06:10,356
Speaker 1: some that are less about the courts, you know, like

100
00:06:10,636 --> 00:06:14,236
Speaker 1: internal discipline as at police departments, but a lot of

101
00:06:14,276 --> 00:06:19,596
Speaker 1: them are criminal prosecutions, civil cases, and legal rules govern

102
00:06:19,636 --> 00:06:21,996
Speaker 1: all of that. So I think the legal training is

103
00:06:22,596 --> 00:06:24,636
Speaker 1: really important if you want to have a role in

104
00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:28,476
Speaker 1: the courts or shaping policy of say the Justice Department

105
00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:30,476
Speaker 1: or any state agency that has that kind of power.

106
00:06:31,196 --> 00:06:33,556
Speaker 1: It can have a negative impact too, I should say,

107
00:06:33,596 --> 00:06:36,476
Speaker 1: I think, you know, the downside is that you start

108
00:06:36,556 --> 00:06:39,436
Speaker 1: to think in overly legalistic terms. So you know, good

109
00:06:39,476 --> 00:06:42,756
Speaker 1: example actually is where people will say the murder of

110
00:06:42,956 --> 00:06:46,236
Speaker 1: X person who was killed by police, and the lawyer

111
00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:49,196
Speaker 1: in me will sometimes think, well, was that actually a murderer?

112
00:06:49,236 --> 00:06:50,876
Speaker 1: I mean, it might have been manslaughter, it might have

113
00:06:50,916 --> 00:06:53,036
Speaker 1: been some other kind of offense. It's not technically murder,

114
00:06:53,076 --> 00:06:55,476
Speaker 1: so I should watch my words. I don't think that's

115
00:06:55,516 --> 00:06:58,076
Speaker 1: particularly healthy. I think you can start to lose the

116
00:06:58,116 --> 00:07:01,316
Speaker 1: forest for the trees and get disconnected from communities who

117
00:07:01,356 --> 00:07:04,636
Speaker 1: are experiencing this and you know, the fundamental problem of

118
00:07:04,716 --> 00:07:08,596
Speaker 1: police violence that needs to change. Yeah, I'm curious about

119
00:07:08,636 --> 00:07:10,316
Speaker 1: so you go, Oh, you come out of law school,

120
00:07:10,356 --> 00:07:13,316
Speaker 1: you clerk, and then did you join the Department of

121
00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:18,236
Speaker 1: Justice immediately thereafter? Yes, you emerge from this experience with

122
00:07:19,036 --> 00:07:22,836
Speaker 1: some ideas about how we ought to deal with this

123
00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:24,796
Speaker 1: problem of police violence, and I'd love to I love

124
00:07:25,036 --> 00:07:26,756
Speaker 1: you to sort of go over what you think the

125
00:07:26,796 --> 00:07:29,796
Speaker 1: most important of those are. Maybe start with this idea

126
00:07:29,836 --> 00:07:33,156
Speaker 1: of police impunity, because that's something we've been hearing a

127
00:07:33,196 --> 00:07:37,316
Speaker 1: lot about in the aftermath of George Floyd. You talk

128
00:07:37,396 --> 00:07:41,636
Speaker 1: about what does that idea mean? Is it structured? Appropriate? Now?

129
00:07:41,796 --> 00:07:44,756
Speaker 1: Is can we is this one pathway to reform? I

130
00:07:44,796 --> 00:07:48,556
Speaker 1: think criminal prosecution is a critical part of the response

131
00:07:48,596 --> 00:07:51,356
Speaker 1: to acts of police violence, but I also don't think

132
00:07:51,396 --> 00:07:54,156
Speaker 1: it's enough on its own to kind of change the

133
00:07:54,236 --> 00:07:56,276
Speaker 1: system and to stop such actions from happening in the

134
00:07:56,316 --> 00:07:58,516
Speaker 1: first place. But right now, it is a problem. Right

135
00:07:58,516 --> 00:08:01,436
Speaker 1: there is a lack of accountability for police violence. And

136
00:08:01,636 --> 00:08:06,636
Speaker 1: one part of solving that is to give federal prosecutors

137
00:08:06,636 --> 00:08:09,116
Speaker 1: more tools so that they can actually prosecute these cases.

138
00:08:09,596 --> 00:08:10,916
Speaker 1: And there's a couple of pieces of that I can

139
00:08:10,956 --> 00:08:12,596
Speaker 1: break down. Yeah, what do you mean by that? What

140
00:08:12,636 --> 00:08:16,716
Speaker 1: are the tools? Well, the federal government has one statutory

141
00:08:16,756 --> 00:08:21,516
Speaker 1: tool to prosecute police officers for excessive force. That is

142
00:08:21,516 --> 00:08:24,836
Speaker 1: a Reconstruction era statute. We call them two forty two

143
00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:27,636
Speaker 1: cases because this part of the US Code where this

144
00:08:27,716 --> 00:08:31,396
Speaker 1: is found is eighteen US Code, section two forty two.

145
00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:34,716
Speaker 1: It's a reconstruction era statute that was passed as part

146
00:08:34,716 --> 00:08:38,396
Speaker 1: of the Civil Rights Act of eighteen sixty six, and

147
00:08:38,636 --> 00:08:41,436
Speaker 1: it says that, you know, it is a crime to

148
00:08:41,636 --> 00:08:45,636
Speaker 1: willfully deprive someone of their rights under color of law.

149
00:08:46,276 --> 00:08:47,916
Speaker 1: There's a lot of other words, but those are the

150
00:08:47,916 --> 00:08:50,636
Speaker 1: words that matter. The color of law part is usually

151
00:08:50,676 --> 00:08:53,796
Speaker 1: the easiest, although not always. It basically means that the

152
00:08:54,476 --> 00:08:57,116
Speaker 1: target or the defendant, you know, the officer was using

153
00:08:57,796 --> 00:09:01,756
Speaker 1: and abusing authority given them by the government. So if

154
00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:04,356
Speaker 1: they were in uniform, they committed violence in the course

155
00:09:04,356 --> 00:09:06,716
Speaker 1: of an arrest. That sort of thing you've got under

156
00:09:06,716 --> 00:09:09,716
Speaker 1: color of law. The deprivation of rights part be hard

157
00:09:09,796 --> 00:09:12,236
Speaker 1: because this that gets to what is the content of

158
00:09:12,276 --> 00:09:16,356
Speaker 1: your Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable force,

159
00:09:17,036 --> 00:09:19,516
Speaker 1: free from excessive force, And the courts have been very

160
00:09:19,556 --> 00:09:22,796
Speaker 1: deferential to law enforcement officers, so that is a pretty

161
00:09:22,796 --> 00:09:24,876
Speaker 1: hard element. It's easy in a case where someone's in

162
00:09:24,956 --> 00:09:28,476
Speaker 1: handcuffs and is being beaten, although not a luck because

163
00:09:28,516 --> 00:09:32,276
Speaker 1: the officers could say the person was still resisting, still

164
00:09:32,316 --> 00:09:35,196
Speaker 1: posed a threat, so it's it's often a fight. The

165
00:09:35,556 --> 00:09:39,636
Speaker 1: intent element willfulness is a major problem that's the highest

166
00:09:39,676 --> 00:09:42,676
Speaker 1: intent standard in federal law. It's pretty close to what's

167
00:09:42,676 --> 00:09:46,556
Speaker 1: required to prove premeditated first degree murder. Most people don't

168
00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,156
Speaker 1: know what the word willfulness means when they're confronted with

169
00:09:49,196 --> 00:09:51,676
Speaker 1: the word, and courts have struggled over it, but it

170
00:09:51,796 --> 00:09:54,356
Speaker 1: essentially boils down to that the officer knew what they

171
00:09:54,356 --> 00:09:56,676
Speaker 1: were doing was wrong and chose to do it anyway.

172
00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:01,396
Speaker 1: That can be really hard because there are many situations

173
00:10:01,396 --> 00:10:03,396
Speaker 1: where an officer will say, well, I didn't have time

174
00:10:03,396 --> 00:10:06,596
Speaker 1: to develop that intent, or actually had a different intent,

175
00:10:06,636 --> 00:10:11,036
Speaker 1: which is to control the situation, not to violate someone's rights,

176
00:10:11,756 --> 00:10:16,596
Speaker 1: especially in circumstances that unfold very quickly. Officers who engage

177
00:10:16,636 --> 00:10:21,276
Speaker 1: in let's say, reckless behavior will escape liability under federal

178
00:10:21,316 --> 00:10:24,476
Speaker 1: criminal law because the intense standard is higher. And even

179
00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:28,596
Speaker 1: officers who do engage in willful misconduct, you intentional, will holme, missconduct,

180
00:10:29,036 --> 00:10:30,996
Speaker 1: can say they didn't and they've got a lot of

181
00:10:31,036 --> 00:10:34,116
Speaker 1: legal arguments to make and factual arguments using that element.

182
00:10:34,476 --> 00:10:37,516
Speaker 1: So you'd like to see what some you think would

183
00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:40,476
Speaker 1: be might be useful to relax some of those standards,

184
00:10:40,476 --> 00:10:43,876
Speaker 1: so to give prosecutors other avenues for pursuing these kinds

185
00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:46,756
Speaker 1: of cases, What exactly would you like to see happen there? Yeah,

186
00:10:46,756 --> 00:10:48,436
Speaker 1: the key move that I'd like to see is for

187
00:10:48,516 --> 00:10:52,076
Speaker 1: Congress to lower the intense standard from willfulness to recklessness,

188
00:10:52,356 --> 00:10:54,516
Speaker 1: so that it would be a federal crime to recklessly

189
00:10:54,676 --> 00:10:57,156
Speaker 1: deprive someone of their rights under color of law, you know,

190
00:10:57,196 --> 00:11:00,436
Speaker 1: to recklessly use successive force. So when I think about

191
00:11:00,476 --> 00:11:03,676
Speaker 1: cases that we're not prosecutable at the federal level but

192
00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:07,556
Speaker 1: certainly look like crimes, I'm thinking about, say, the shooting

193
00:11:07,556 --> 00:11:12,516
Speaker 1: of Philando Castile outside Minneapolis four years ago, thinking about

194
00:11:12,556 --> 00:11:15,516
Speaker 1: the case of Tamir Rice, you know, twelve year old

195
00:11:15,516 --> 00:11:18,116
Speaker 1: boy who was shot and killed by an officer when

196
00:11:18,196 --> 00:11:20,836
Speaker 1: playing in a park in Cleveland. In those cases, the

197
00:11:20,876 --> 00:11:23,796
Speaker 1: way they unfolded, the officer can say, first of all,

198
00:11:23,796 --> 00:11:27,876
Speaker 1: got themselves into a difficult situation and didn't de escalate,

199
00:11:27,996 --> 00:11:31,156
Speaker 1: rather escalated the situation and then was able to say

200
00:11:31,996 --> 00:11:33,996
Speaker 1: I feared for my life, you know, I saw the

201
00:11:34,036 --> 00:11:35,916
Speaker 1: toy gun that the twelve year old had, and I

202
00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:37,556
Speaker 1: thought I was going to die, so I shot and

203
00:11:37,636 --> 00:11:41,556
Speaker 1: killed him, you know, within seconds of arriving. And those

204
00:11:41,596 --> 00:11:44,796
Speaker 1: cases would be prosecutable if recklessness were the standard if

205
00:11:44,796 --> 00:11:48,916
Speaker 1: the officer engaged in reckless behavior didn't take steps to

206
00:11:49,436 --> 00:11:52,796
Speaker 1: take greater care. It actually is the law at the

207
00:11:52,796 --> 00:11:55,876
Speaker 1: state level in most places that a reckless violation of

208
00:11:55,916 --> 00:11:58,916
Speaker 1: that sort is prosecutable. So and they're even lower standards

209
00:11:58,996 --> 00:12:03,156
Speaker 1: of intent negligence in some cases where these cases could

210
00:12:03,156 --> 00:12:05,396
Speaker 1: be prosecuted by the state, but it's not permitted under

211
00:12:05,436 --> 00:12:08,476
Speaker 1: federal law. And that's a problem because there are advantages

212
00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:13,436
Speaker 1: to prosecution. There's this unit that exists to prosecute these

213
00:12:13,516 --> 00:12:15,916
Speaker 1: kind of cases, so they're repeat players. They developed deep

214
00:12:15,956 --> 00:12:18,236
Speaker 1: expertise in how to build these cases and prove them

215
00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:21,476
Speaker 1: at trial to reluctant juries. It also provides a measure

216
00:12:21,476 --> 00:12:25,356
Speaker 1: of independence. Federal prosecutors don't work, at least in this office,

217
00:12:25,396 --> 00:12:30,036
Speaker 1: don't work with local police on a repeat basis. You

218
00:12:30,316 --> 00:12:33,756
Speaker 1: prosecuting street crime, local prosecutors do. So the federal government

219
00:12:33,756 --> 00:12:37,676
Speaker 1: offers a real solution in the sense of independence. That's

220
00:12:37,676 --> 00:12:39,956
Speaker 1: a problem. I think that the public started paying a

221
00:12:39,956 --> 00:12:43,676
Speaker 1: lot more attention to after Ferguson, But it's only a

222
00:12:43,676 --> 00:12:45,996
Speaker 1: real solution if they have the ability to bring cases,

223
00:12:45,996 --> 00:12:48,116
Speaker 1: and right now they don't have the statuary tool they need.

224
00:12:48,556 --> 00:12:52,836
Speaker 1: How many times that specific language of willful when you

225
00:12:52,876 --> 00:12:57,116
Speaker 1: were at DJ did that thwart a possible prosecution of

226
00:12:57,476 --> 00:13:01,476
Speaker 1: an officer you felt had done something wrong. Routinely that

227
00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:05,636
Speaker 1: was the biggest barrier to prosecuting cases. It was always

228
00:13:05,676 --> 00:13:08,396
Speaker 1: the central concern. You know, the concerns are, was this

229
00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:11,836
Speaker 1: unreasonable conduct and thus violation of someone's Fourth Amendment rights?

230
00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:14,036
Speaker 1: And that's a tough one, as I mentioned, but it's

231
00:13:14,036 --> 00:13:16,876
Speaker 1: always was it a willful And often the answer was like, look,

232
00:13:16,916 --> 00:13:19,036
Speaker 1: it's going to be a challenge to prove this was unreasonable,

233
00:13:19,076 --> 00:13:20,756
Speaker 1: but I think we could do it. I don't think

234
00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:22,796
Speaker 1: we're gonna be able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt

235
00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:25,956
Speaker 1: that this conduct was willful. Yeah, And so it was

236
00:13:26,756 --> 00:13:29,916
Speaker 1: the biggest obstacle to accountability and it was routinely present,

237
00:13:30,236 --> 00:13:32,596
Speaker 1: always thought about in cases. You were part of a

238
00:13:32,676 --> 00:13:36,996
Speaker 1: number of very high profile cases, including Ferguson. And Ferguson

239
00:13:37,196 --> 00:13:40,596
Speaker 1: was a fascinating example of what you're talking about, because

240
00:13:41,276 --> 00:13:44,396
Speaker 1: the police officer did not end up being inducted by

241
00:13:44,396 --> 00:13:48,916
Speaker 1: the Department of Justice, but you did launch a pattern

242
00:13:49,036 --> 00:13:52,596
Speaker 1: or practice investigation of the Ferguson Department, and that is

243
00:13:52,636 --> 00:13:55,836
Speaker 1: the one that resulted in something happened. So what is

244
00:13:55,876 --> 00:13:59,876
Speaker 1: a pattern of practice investigation? A pattern of practice investigation

245
00:14:00,196 --> 00:14:03,516
Speaker 1: is a dj investigation into a whole police department or

246
00:14:03,556 --> 00:14:06,196
Speaker 1: some subset of the police department. Perhaps that is looking

247
00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:08,956
Speaker 1: at whether they're systemic misconduct. So it's a way to

248
00:14:09,196 --> 00:14:13,196
Speaker 1: yet not at just individual accountability, you know, which which

249
00:14:13,196 --> 00:14:15,196
Speaker 1: where people can say, well, that was just one bad officer,

250
00:14:15,316 --> 00:14:18,236
Speaker 1: one bad apple, but actually the fact that there's something

251
00:14:18,276 --> 00:14:22,116
Speaker 1: wrong in this police department. There's a pattern repetition of

252
00:14:22,476 --> 00:14:26,076
Speaker 1: constitutional violations, and there are broken systems that allow them

253
00:14:26,076 --> 00:14:28,636
Speaker 1: to proliferate. You know, you need a whole team of

254
00:14:28,676 --> 00:14:33,636
Speaker 1: people who will go down to the jurisdiction and look

255
00:14:33,636 --> 00:14:36,076
Speaker 1: through all the paperwork they can from the police department,

256
00:14:36,156 --> 00:14:38,676
Speaker 1: meet with as many police officers and command staff as

257
00:14:38,756 --> 00:14:43,476
Speaker 1: they can, meet with community members, hold community forums. You know,

258
00:14:43,476 --> 00:14:46,876
Speaker 1: in Ferguson, I read every arrest report, every use of

259
00:14:46,916 --> 00:14:49,156
Speaker 1: force report, and every complaint that they had in a

260
00:14:49,156 --> 00:14:52,076
Speaker 1: five year period. And that was challenging. It would have

261
00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:54,196
Speaker 1: been impossible in a bigger department. And you know, Ferguson

262
00:14:54,236 --> 00:14:57,756
Speaker 1: had fifty five police officers, but other departments, you know,

263
00:14:57,796 --> 00:15:02,276
Speaker 1: have hundreds or thousands. And this is a really important

264
00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:06,716
Speaker 1: part of DJ's power, and it's relatively new. It was

265
00:15:06,716 --> 00:15:08,916
Speaker 1: in the early nineties when this passed as a re

266
00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:12,676
Speaker 1: action to the Rodney King beating and the riots that

267
00:15:12,716 --> 00:15:15,836
Speaker 1: followed the acquittal of the four officers on state charges.

268
00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:18,836
Speaker 1: The events that happened there were a wake up call

269
00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:23,516
Speaker 1: for legislators that this wasn't about just Rodney King. It

270
00:15:23,556 --> 00:15:26,756
Speaker 1: wasn't just about those four officers who assaulted him. It

271
00:15:26,836 --> 00:15:30,236
Speaker 1: was about years and years of degradation and violence and

272
00:15:30,316 --> 00:15:34,916
Speaker 1: misconduct within LAPD. Congress realized they needed to do something here.

273
00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:37,956
Speaker 1: At the same time that these events were becoming clear,

274
00:15:38,196 --> 00:15:39,836
Speaker 1: it was also clear that there were a lot of

275
00:15:40,316 --> 00:15:44,316
Speaker 1: barriers in the law to individuals bringing civil suit. Barriers

276
00:15:44,316 --> 00:15:45,796
Speaker 1: that have to do the standing, that is, who can

277
00:15:45,796 --> 00:15:48,236
Speaker 1: get to court in the first place, Barriers that have

278
00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:51,716
Speaker 1: to do with proving of violation. And so what Congress

279
00:15:51,756 --> 00:15:55,076
Speaker 1: did is they created a new authority for DJ to

280
00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:59,436
Speaker 1: investigate law enforcement agencies where there's a pattern or practice

281
00:15:59,556 --> 00:16:03,636
Speaker 1: of conduct that violates law. And DJ started doing the

282
00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:07,276
Speaker 1: cases in the beginning in the late nineties. So how

283
00:16:07,276 --> 00:16:10,796
Speaker 1: many pattern and practice investors were you a part of it? DOJ?

284
00:16:11,356 --> 00:16:15,716
Speaker 1: We did Ferguson, Chicago, Baltimore, and we had continuing consent

285
00:16:15,796 --> 00:16:21,036
Speaker 1: decrees in many places Seattle, New Orleans. There was also

286
00:16:21,076 --> 00:16:23,716
Speaker 1: work in new work. You know, during the Obama administration,

287
00:16:24,116 --> 00:16:28,756
Speaker 1: twenty five investigations of police departments were opened. Yeah, so

288
00:16:28,796 --> 00:16:31,436
Speaker 1: this was a priority. It was a priority for the

289
00:16:31,876 --> 00:16:34,636
Speaker 1: Obama Justice Department. In the three and a half years

290
00:16:34,636 --> 00:16:37,516
Speaker 1: that Trump has been president, the Justice Department has done

291
00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:41,596
Speaker 1: one investigation. So they also put in place certain memos

292
00:16:41,596 --> 00:16:44,516
Speaker 1: that just make it very hard to bring these cases.

293
00:16:44,556 --> 00:16:46,676
Speaker 1: And there's been a chilling effect as well, even though

294
00:16:46,716 --> 00:16:49,916
Speaker 1: it's formerly on the books. I think attorneys at the

295
00:16:49,916 --> 00:16:52,596
Speaker 1: career level are not bringing these cases and pushing them

296
00:16:52,676 --> 00:16:55,996
Speaker 1: up to the political leadership because they know they're not welcome. Yeah.

297
00:16:56,036 --> 00:17:00,636
Speaker 1: So what happens, so I'm I'm for the town of Ferguson.

298
00:17:01,196 --> 00:17:04,556
Speaker 1: DOJ returns a report which says that there was a

299
00:17:04,556 --> 00:17:11,156
Speaker 1: pattern of practice of unlawful conduct. So what happened next? Well,

300
00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:14,716
Speaker 1: you know, you specify what that pattern or practice is,

301
00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:18,676
Speaker 1: and it's usually constitutional violations. It's important to say that

302
00:17:18,716 --> 00:17:22,636
Speaker 1: we found a pattern of First Amendment violations, of excessive force,

303
00:17:22,756 --> 00:17:26,196
Speaker 1: of racial discrimination, and violation of the fourteenth Amendment. You know,

304
00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:29,236
Speaker 1: you put it out there, make the findings public, and

305
00:17:29,276 --> 00:17:33,796
Speaker 1: then there's you know, begin a process of negotiation and

306
00:17:33,876 --> 00:17:36,036
Speaker 1: consultation to see if this is a case that will

307
00:17:36,076 --> 00:17:39,716
Speaker 1: resolve short of litigation. And so, you know, in Ferguson,

308
00:17:39,716 --> 00:17:41,476
Speaker 1: for example, what we do is we made the report

309
00:17:41,516 --> 00:17:44,356
Speaker 1: public and we very quickly after that, we're in Ferguson

310
00:17:44,956 --> 00:17:49,076
Speaker 1: meeting with officials in the town and for the police

311
00:17:49,116 --> 00:17:51,076
Speaker 1: department and also with the community. You know, we held

312
00:17:51,076 --> 00:17:55,196
Speaker 1: a community forum where we explained our findings, took questions,

313
00:17:55,196 --> 00:17:58,036
Speaker 1: and actually broke up into small groups that are hundreds

314
00:17:58,076 --> 00:18:00,996
Speaker 1: of people who attended, and in these small groups, we

315
00:18:01,436 --> 00:18:04,756
Speaker 1: took ideas for what reforms did people want to see

316
00:18:04,876 --> 00:18:08,076
Speaker 1: in a reform agreement. And it's just hours and hours

317
00:18:08,116 --> 00:18:11,476
Speaker 1: of negotiation between DJ, the attorneys and other staff and

318
00:18:11,556 --> 00:18:15,276
Speaker 1: the DJ team and city council members or whoever it

319
00:18:15,356 --> 00:18:17,196
Speaker 1: is that's coming to the table from the city where

320
00:18:17,196 --> 00:18:19,556
Speaker 1: the police department is, and the goal is to get

321
00:18:19,596 --> 00:18:23,156
Speaker 1: to an agreement that becomes what's called a consent decree,

322
00:18:23,236 --> 00:18:25,156
Speaker 1: which is it's an agreement that becomes an order of

323
00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:27,956
Speaker 1: the court and it's more powerful in specific ways than

324
00:18:28,316 --> 00:18:31,356
Speaker 1: a private out of court agreement, and there are various

325
00:18:31,436 --> 00:18:34,676
Speaker 1: ways in which the community can impact that even though

326
00:18:34,716 --> 00:18:37,436
Speaker 1: the community is not technically a party to the lawsuit

327
00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:41,356
Speaker 1: that will be filed in what community do you think

328
00:18:41,876 --> 00:18:46,356
Speaker 1: this process worked best? Is there a shining example of

329
00:18:46,876 --> 00:18:50,356
Speaker 1: patterns and practices really turning around a troubled police department.

330
00:18:50,836 --> 00:18:52,756
Speaker 1: You know, one place where I think there has been

331
00:18:53,156 --> 00:18:57,196
Speaker 1: some success is Seattle. It's again not a complete success,

332
00:18:57,236 --> 00:19:00,356
Speaker 1: but there are some good indicators. So the Department of

333
00:19:00,356 --> 00:19:02,956
Speaker 1: Justice entered a consent decree with Seattle in twenty twelve,

334
00:19:03,436 --> 00:19:06,636
Speaker 1: and if you look at the numbers comparing twenty eleven,

335
00:19:06,676 --> 00:19:09,156
Speaker 1: the year before the consent decree to twenty nineteen, in

336
00:19:09,236 --> 00:19:11,996
Speaker 1: a most recent year where we have full data, serious

337
00:19:12,076 --> 00:19:16,076
Speaker 1: use of force declined sixty in that period. Yeah. Yeah,

338
00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:18,276
Speaker 1: So it's had an impact, and they're still working on

339
00:19:18,316 --> 00:19:20,916
Speaker 1: some things, but it has had some success. And I

340
00:19:20,956 --> 00:19:23,316
Speaker 1: think there are other departments that look very different today

341
00:19:23,356 --> 00:19:25,756
Speaker 1: than they did before. New Orleans is another one that

342
00:19:25,796 --> 00:19:28,956
Speaker 1: comes to mind, where there were just repeat acts of

343
00:19:29,116 --> 00:19:33,596
Speaker 1: violence and murder in that department and other systemic problems,

344
00:19:33,636 --> 00:19:36,036
Speaker 1: and that department looks a lot different today. Again, it's

345
00:19:36,076 --> 00:19:39,516
Speaker 1: not the model, and they're not free from excessive force

346
00:19:39,676 --> 00:19:42,916
Speaker 1: or discrimination. But it looks a lot different today. Would

347
00:19:42,956 --> 00:19:47,916
Speaker 1: you if you had to choose, hypothetically someone said to you,

348
00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:49,676
Speaker 1: you can only do one. You can either change the

349
00:19:49,716 --> 00:19:53,676
Speaker 1: willful standard or you can have patterns of practice investigations.

350
00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:59,836
Speaker 1: Pick which one would you choose? Okay? Well, I was

351
00:19:59,876 --> 00:20:03,796
Speaker 1: trying to avoid having to identify one thing because because

352
00:20:03,796 --> 00:20:05,916
Speaker 1: it's the nature, even these two things aren't enough to

353
00:20:06,636 --> 00:20:10,476
Speaker 1: transform policing. But between those two, I, although I spent

354
00:20:10,636 --> 00:20:14,076
Speaker 1: more of my time doing the criminal prosecutions, I would

355
00:20:14,076 --> 00:20:17,196
Speaker 1: say emphasized reforms on the pattern or practice side. I

356
00:20:17,236 --> 00:20:19,116
Speaker 1: think there are things we could do differently even from

357
00:20:19,156 --> 00:20:21,396
Speaker 1: how we did them at the Justice Department when I

358
00:20:21,436 --> 00:20:23,636
Speaker 1: was there, And it's one of the few tools that

359
00:20:23,716 --> 00:20:28,836
Speaker 1: exist to try to change a department overall, as opposed

360
00:20:28,836 --> 00:20:32,636
Speaker 1: to just take out a few bad officers. You know,

361
00:20:32,916 --> 00:20:37,156
Speaker 1: right now, the rallying cry in many of the protests,

362
00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,676
Speaker 1: among many of those post George Floyd, has been about

363
00:20:40,716 --> 00:20:44,596
Speaker 1: defunding the police or these kinds of terms are being

364
00:20:44,596 --> 00:20:49,356
Speaker 1: thrown around. What's your reaction to that line of proposed reform.

365
00:20:50,276 --> 00:20:54,036
Speaker 1: So there's this way in which police have both underserved

366
00:20:54,476 --> 00:20:59,116
Speaker 1: and you know, over policed communities, underserved in the sense

367
00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:01,036
Speaker 1: that you know, in many communities they don't come when

368
00:21:01,076 --> 00:21:03,356
Speaker 1: you call nine one, or they haven't solved murders and

369
00:21:03,476 --> 00:21:06,116
Speaker 1: rapes and other serious crimes where the police are the

370
00:21:06,876 --> 00:21:08,916
Speaker 1: ones who are you know, people turn to you for

371
00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:13,396
Speaker 1: that kind of service, and yet they're present. They're arresting

372
00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:16,556
Speaker 1: people for order violations, you know, focusing on turnstile jumping

373
00:21:16,636 --> 00:21:19,996
Speaker 1: in New York or the Ferguson example would be you know,

374
00:21:20,036 --> 00:21:22,876
Speaker 1: ticketing people and arresting them for failing to show up

375
00:21:22,916 --> 00:21:26,076
Speaker 1: for warrants on faire to keep their law and in order.

376
00:21:26,196 --> 00:21:28,356
Speaker 1: So all of this kind of order policing that police

377
00:21:28,356 --> 00:21:31,356
Speaker 1: have engaged and that doesn't really get to public safety.

378
00:21:31,876 --> 00:21:33,996
Speaker 1: So I think that's where this is going. And you know,

379
00:21:34,036 --> 00:21:38,236
Speaker 1: we should invest in forms of public safety that we

380
00:21:38,556 --> 00:21:40,756
Speaker 1: believe in, that we believe are equitable and that are real,

381
00:21:41,076 --> 00:21:43,756
Speaker 1: and that will really change our communities. That's what I

382
00:21:43,796 --> 00:21:45,836
Speaker 1: make of it. I think this is a local, locally

383
00:21:45,876 --> 00:21:50,156
Speaker 1: driven thing, and we should welcome this conversation and really

384
00:21:50,316 --> 00:21:53,716
Speaker 1: step into it. And people should be lobbying their city

385
00:21:53,716 --> 00:21:56,476
Speaker 1: council and their mayor for what's in the police budget.

386
00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:01,756
Speaker 1: I asked you before to choose between two important mechanisms

387
00:22:01,756 --> 00:22:03,796
Speaker 1: for dealing with police violence. Now I want to ask

388
00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:08,756
Speaker 1: you the opposite question. I've made you CSAR, and I've

389
00:22:08,796 --> 00:22:11,276
Speaker 1: given you back patterns and practices. I've allowed you to

390
00:22:11,396 --> 00:22:16,796
Speaker 1: change the willful language. Give me two other things that

391
00:22:17,036 --> 00:22:20,116
Speaker 1: would that you would do tomorrow if you could, that

392
00:22:20,276 --> 00:22:24,796
Speaker 1: you think would help us confront this issue of police violence.

393
00:22:25,876 --> 00:22:28,956
Speaker 1: One thing I would do is invest in non police

394
00:22:28,996 --> 00:22:34,636
Speaker 1: responses to social crises and emergencies. So here I'm thinking

395
00:22:34,676 --> 00:22:36,676
Speaker 1: about there are a lot of situations where someone's having

396
00:22:36,756 --> 00:22:41,116
Speaker 1: a mental health crisis, or you know, there's an argument

397
00:22:41,436 --> 00:22:44,356
Speaker 1: and it's not actually posing a public safety risk. You know,

398
00:22:44,396 --> 00:22:46,436
Speaker 1: where you need somebody who has a badge and a

399
00:22:46,436 --> 00:22:49,116
Speaker 1: gun to respond, But you do want somebody who's trained,

400
00:22:49,276 --> 00:22:53,036
Speaker 1: maybe in substance abuse treatment, maybe in mental health awareness,

401
00:22:53,436 --> 00:22:55,436
Speaker 1: to respond. We don't have that. We don't have that

402
00:22:55,476 --> 00:22:59,036
Speaker 1: in America. There's only one service that answers the phone

403
00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:00,836
Speaker 1: and will come to your house twenty four to seven.

404
00:23:01,076 --> 00:23:05,116
Speaker 1: That is the police. And they're primarily trained in firearms

405
00:23:05,236 --> 00:23:09,476
Speaker 1: usage and what they call defensive tactics using force. So

406
00:23:09,996 --> 00:23:12,556
Speaker 1: I would like to see an investment in alternative forms

407
00:23:12,596 --> 00:23:15,436
Speaker 1: of public safety to respond to those kinds of needs.

408
00:23:15,516 --> 00:23:20,396
Speaker 1: They're sort of like a unarmed first responder service where

409
00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:22,356
Speaker 1: you could call maybe it's still nine one, and they

410
00:23:22,476 --> 00:23:26,156
Speaker 1: dispatch sends someone else, maybe it's another phone number. I

411
00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:30,236
Speaker 1: think that would be really interesting and would actually serve

412
00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:32,676
Speaker 1: police in the way that a lot of officers have

413
00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:35,036
Speaker 1: told me they spent a lot of time responding to

414
00:23:35,036 --> 00:23:37,676
Speaker 1: calls that you know, aren't why they went into the

415
00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:40,476
Speaker 1: police academy and that they're not trained for. So I

416
00:23:40,476 --> 00:23:43,876
Speaker 1: think that would be a helpful solution. Another thing that

417
00:23:43,916 --> 00:23:46,196
Speaker 1: needs to change is we need to end qualified immunity.

418
00:23:46,716 --> 00:23:50,196
Speaker 1: That's a judge made doctrine that's about forty years old

419
00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:54,076
Speaker 1: where you can't sue, We can't even sue a police

420
00:23:54,076 --> 00:23:58,996
Speaker 1: officer for violating your rights if the court deems those

421
00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:03,276
Speaker 1: rights to not having been clearly established. And what that

422
00:24:03,356 --> 00:24:04,876
Speaker 1: ends up meeting in the way the law works is

423
00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:07,556
Speaker 1: if there wasn't another case that was decided and that

424
00:24:07,636 --> 00:24:09,716
Speaker 1: you can find an opinion on where the court has

425
00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:13,916
Speaker 1: said that a certain kind of conduct was unconstitutional, then

426
00:24:14,076 --> 00:24:15,876
Speaker 1: you're not going to be able to sue if it

427
00:24:15,876 --> 00:24:19,836
Speaker 1: happened to you, and that's nowhere in the statute under

428
00:24:19,876 --> 00:24:22,756
Speaker 1: which these cases are brought. It has no relationship to

429
00:24:22,796 --> 00:24:25,436
Speaker 1: what you know, the original intent of the of the

430
00:24:25,476 --> 00:24:29,356
Speaker 1: statutes or of the Constitution, and it's a major frustration

431
00:24:29,556 --> 00:24:33,276
Speaker 1: for accountability. It shields law enforcement in cases where they

432
00:24:33,316 --> 00:24:36,116
Speaker 1: should be liable. I'd like to see that ended as well.

433
00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:39,836
Speaker 1: We've been talking a lot about ways in which we

434
00:24:39,876 --> 00:24:44,316
Speaker 1: can make police behavior more acceptable and legitimate in the

435
00:24:44,356 --> 00:24:48,476
Speaker 1: eyes of the population. But let me ask the questions

436
00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:50,596
Speaker 1: of the other way. What are the ways in which

437
00:24:50,636 --> 00:24:54,716
Speaker 1: we can make these kinds of reforms acceptable to the police.

438
00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:58,316
Speaker 1: The first question is what reform is necessary to really

439
00:24:58,356 --> 00:25:02,276
Speaker 1: protect constitutional rights and ensure equity, and so I start

440
00:25:02,316 --> 00:25:04,236
Speaker 1: from that point. But let me take the question on

441
00:25:04,316 --> 00:25:05,756
Speaker 1: its terms. You know, how do you make the case

442
00:25:05,796 --> 00:25:09,316
Speaker 1: to police officers? I think that's about showing that these

443
00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:12,956
Speaker 1: systems are currently designed for them to fail in their job.

444
00:25:13,396 --> 00:25:15,236
Speaker 1: What would a different world look like, one in which

445
00:25:15,236 --> 00:25:18,156
Speaker 1: police weren't sent to calls that they're not equipped to

446
00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:21,836
Speaker 1: respond to, one in which you know, they focused more

447
00:25:21,836 --> 00:25:24,916
Speaker 1: of their time on violent crimes as opposed to order

448
00:25:24,996 --> 00:25:29,156
Speaker 1: violations or engagements that have nothing to do with the

449
00:25:29,236 --> 00:25:32,316
Speaker 1: law at all, you know, also just understanding some of

450
00:25:32,316 --> 00:25:37,996
Speaker 1: the specific challenges they experience and building that into the agenda.

451
00:25:38,236 --> 00:25:40,676
Speaker 1: Some of the challenges I heard about from police officers

452
00:25:40,716 --> 00:25:43,676
Speaker 1: when I was involved in the Ferguson investigation or in

453
00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:46,396
Speaker 1: some of my criminal cases, were that, you know, they

454
00:25:46,396 --> 00:25:49,396
Speaker 1: didn't have the support of their leadership. Their leadership was

455
00:25:50,076 --> 00:25:53,436
Speaker 1: focusing on a certain kind of enforcement that made it

456
00:25:53,516 --> 00:25:56,556
Speaker 1: hard for them to have legitimacy in the community. Ferguson

457
00:25:56,596 --> 00:25:58,436
Speaker 1: was a great example of this. You know, it wasn't

458
00:25:58,436 --> 00:26:02,196
Speaker 1: the decision of the line officers to use the police

459
00:26:02,236 --> 00:26:04,956
Speaker 1: power and the courts to generate revenue for the town.

460
00:26:05,116 --> 00:26:08,476
Speaker 1: It was the decision of the mayor, the city council.

461
00:26:08,876 --> 00:26:12,516
Speaker 1: The finance director actually played a very significant role. And

462
00:26:12,596 --> 00:26:16,076
Speaker 1: so the officers were saying, this wasn't on me, Why

463
00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:18,316
Speaker 1: am I getting flak for it? And I think these

464
00:26:18,316 --> 00:26:21,436
Speaker 1: pattern or practice cases allow you to zoom out from

465
00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:23,756
Speaker 1: the individual officer and say, yeah, this actually isn't on

466
00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:27,916
Speaker 1: the individual officer. These are larger decisions about structures that

467
00:26:27,956 --> 00:26:30,716
Speaker 1: have been made way above their pay grade, and that's

468
00:26:30,756 --> 00:26:33,716
Speaker 1: where accountability should lie. And then there are other things

469
00:26:33,756 --> 00:26:37,316
Speaker 1: where there's actually not enough investment in officer wellness. The

470
00:26:37,396 --> 00:26:39,716
Speaker 1: suicide rate is high for officers. These are things that

471
00:26:39,716 --> 00:26:41,316
Speaker 1: we also need to address and I think should be

472
00:26:41,356 --> 00:26:45,196
Speaker 1: part of the conversation. We love to end these conversations

473
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:49,236
Speaker 1: with telling listeners what are the sources of things they

474
00:26:49,276 --> 00:26:52,556
Speaker 1: can do? You know, how can they participate meaningfully in

475
00:26:52,596 --> 00:26:54,956
Speaker 1: this reform effort. Yeah, I think there's a lot that

476
00:26:55,036 --> 00:26:56,716
Speaker 1: can be done right now. I mean, being part of

477
00:26:56,716 --> 00:26:59,276
Speaker 1: the movement for police reform is critical. So right now

478
00:26:59,276 --> 00:27:02,276
Speaker 1: there's the unique opportunity of protests happening all over the

479
00:27:02,316 --> 00:27:05,676
Speaker 1: country every single day. I actually think that that drives

480
00:27:06,276 --> 00:27:08,156
Speaker 1: most of the change that we're talking about right now.

481
00:27:08,196 --> 00:27:11,556
Speaker 1: Congress wouldn't have a bill that's pending right now to

482
00:27:11,836 --> 00:27:14,116
Speaker 1: change the intense standard as we've been discussing on the

483
00:27:14,116 --> 00:27:17,876
Speaker 1: criminal statute, or to end qualified immunity if it weren't

484
00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:20,876
Speaker 1: for these protests and the black latter organizing we're seeing.

485
00:27:20,956 --> 00:27:23,796
Speaker 1: So I would say, join a protest and then ask

486
00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:27,356
Speaker 1: for specific changes in your community as well. Check out

487
00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:32,156
Speaker 1: the statutes, look at the police policies, See what kind

488
00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:34,956
Speaker 1: of agreements are in the collective bargaining agreement between the

489
00:27:34,956 --> 00:27:37,756
Speaker 1: city and the police union, and if any of those

490
00:27:38,036 --> 00:27:41,676
Speaker 1: pieces frustrate accountability and make it hard to investigate a case,

491
00:27:41,756 --> 00:27:44,476
Speaker 1: make it hard to reduce police violence, take those things

492
00:27:44,476 --> 00:27:47,316
Speaker 1: to the city council and demand change. When you think

493
00:27:47,356 --> 00:27:51,036
Speaker 1: about this from your perspective, are you optimistic right now?

494
00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:55,396
Speaker 1: Are you pessimistic? I'm optimistic. I'm an optimistic person. And

495
00:27:55,556 --> 00:27:57,636
Speaker 1: some might say that we haven't seen enough change in

496
00:27:57,636 --> 00:28:00,276
Speaker 1: policing to be optimistic, but I think this moment is

497
00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:03,836
Speaker 1: very different. It's different even from the moment of activity

498
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:07,396
Speaker 1: and collective reckoning that we had around Ferguson. I think

499
00:28:07,436 --> 00:28:10,196
Speaker 1: there is a danger that it doesn't turn into enough

500
00:28:10,236 --> 00:28:12,516
Speaker 1: substance of change. You know, when you've got Amazon and

501
00:28:12,556 --> 00:28:16,956
Speaker 1: all these corporations emblazoning their web pages and their materials

502
00:28:16,956 --> 00:28:20,556
Speaker 1: with Black Lives Matter, but continue to prop up the

503
00:28:20,596 --> 00:28:23,996
Speaker 1: system of that we are trying to change, I think

504
00:28:24,036 --> 00:28:25,956
Speaker 1: there's a danger of appearing to do something and not

505
00:28:26,036 --> 00:28:28,276
Speaker 1: doing something. So I'm really interested in what's going to

506
00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:31,476
Speaker 1: change in Congress. Are we going to make statutory changes?

507
00:28:31,876 --> 00:28:33,556
Speaker 1: Are we going to make changes at the local level

508
00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:36,796
Speaker 1: with regard to budgets and priorities. But I am optimistic

509
00:28:36,796 --> 00:28:39,676
Speaker 1: because I haven't seen this level of engagement, including cross

510
00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:51,116
Speaker 1: racial and intergenerational engagement, certainly while I've been alive. That

511
00:28:51,236 --> 00:28:55,596
Speaker 1: with Solvable's Malcolm Gladwell speaking with lawyer and justice advocate

512
00:28:55,836 --> 00:28:59,676
Speaker 1: Cheer Rag Bains. Next week, Solvable is kicking off a

513
00:28:59,716 --> 00:29:03,556
Speaker 1: short series about the twenty twenty election. Solvable is brought

514
00:29:03,596 --> 00:29:06,276
Speaker 1: to you by Pushkin Industries. Remember to check out our

515
00:29:06,276 --> 00:29:09,396
Speaker 1: show notes for links to the suggestions our guests make

516
00:29:09,476 --> 00:29:13,076
Speaker 1: for ways that you can get involved. Solvable is produced

517
00:29:13,076 --> 00:29:17,876
Speaker 1: by Camille Baptista, Jocelyn Frank, and Catherine Girardo. Mia Lobell

518
00:29:17,996 --> 00:29:21,436
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Special thanks to our social media

519
00:29:21,516 --> 00:29:25,316
Speaker 1: with Eric Sandler. We'll be back next week with another

520
00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:27,556
Speaker 1: episode of Solvable. Please join us