1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: is Robert. 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,480 Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. It 4 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: is time to go into the vault for an older 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 2: episode of the show. This one originally published November one, 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. And Rob, this is an interview you 7 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: did with the author Brian Hoggard. 8 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: Yes, Yes, as the author of Magical House Protection The 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,960 Speaker 1: Archaeology of Counter Witchcraft. Just a really fun, fascinating discussion 10 00:00:32,680 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: about the various curios that have been unearthed in old 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: buildings throughout Europe and also in North America, where things 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: have been hidden in walls or underfloors that have some 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: purpose of protecting the house or the inhabitants from evil spirits. 14 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: So this is a great one to listen to for 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: the first time or re listen to as we begin 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: to get into the Halloween season. 17 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: Let's jump right in. 18 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 19 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 20 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. My regular co host Joe is out 21 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: on parental leave, but today I'm going to be chatting 22 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: with independent researcher into the archaeology of folk Magic Brian Haggart. 23 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: He's the author of the excellent book Magical House Protection 24 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: The Archaeology of counter Witchcraft, which I highly recommend. So 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: without further ado, let's jump right into the interview. Hi Brian, 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: thanks for coming on the show. 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 4: Hi you Wilco. 28 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: So much of your work, and certainly your twenty nineteen 29 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:50,279 Speaker 1: book Magical House Protections, revolves around the archaeology of counter 30 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: witchcraft artifacts secreted in many cases within historic homes. So 31 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,800 Speaker 1: before we get into the varieties and the particulars, what 32 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: parts of the world and what time periods are we 33 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: predominantly dealing with here? 34 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 5: Well, it's actually worldwide, and I think it's been going 35 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 5: on forever, to be honest with you, because humans seem 36 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 5: to innately believe in the power of some kind of 37 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 5: supernatural evil and they fear it wherever they exist, whether 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 5: it's sort of tribal societies or up to sort of 39 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 5: quite sophisticated societies, and so it's been happening for as 40 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 5: long as humans have been around, I. 41 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:31,360 Speaker 1: Think, and I want to come back to specifics in 42 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: detail later, but generally, what sorts of objects are we 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: talking about, and where do we tend to find them 44 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: positioned in a home. 45 00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 5: Okay, so I normally work with Western Europe, but also 46 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 5: receive reports of objects from much further afield as well. 47 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 5: And you know, within the home, we're talking mainly about 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 5: hearths and thresholds. So wherever there's a fireplace or a chimney, 49 00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 5: that tends to be the main point of focus for 50 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 5: a lot of this, a. 51 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 4: Lot of these objects and practices. 52 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 5: And that's because the chimney is always open to the 53 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 5: sky because it kind of has to be, and so 54 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 5: it's also the most vulnerable point in the building for 55 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 5: that reason, so at night people fear things coming down 56 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 5: the chimney. And also thresholds. So windows and doors obviously 57 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 5: are also points where the house could kind of leak essentially, 58 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 5: and they would often be protected. And yeah, but literally 59 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 5: any boundary point within a house, any precious object or 60 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 5: precious person or precious artifact, can you know, you can 61 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,839 Speaker 5: find that people have gone to some efforts to protect them. 62 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: I hadn't connected the dots on this till just now, 63 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: about mentioning the hearth as being an entry point. I 64 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: guess we see this reflected at least distantly in traditions 65 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: of Santa Claus entering a home through the hearth. 66 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, indeed that goes even further than that, really, because, yeah, 67 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 5: it is the idea of some energy coming down the chimney, 68 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 5: but one of the types of objects that we often 69 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 5: find in homes is concealed shoes, And obviously at Christmas 70 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 5: you hang your stocking by the mantlepiece, which is a 71 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 5: similar kind of thing, so you're kind of trying to 72 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 5: trap some good energy instead of some bad energy. 73 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: Now, early in the book, you do a tremendous and 74 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: seasonally appropriate, I think, job of describing what the experience 75 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: of church may have been like, especially to a pre 76 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: Reformation English commoner. It sounds incredibly spooky really and really 77 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: not at all that comforting. I was wondering if you 78 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: might sort of summarize just a little bit of the 79 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: energy here. 80 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 81 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 5: So when in the medieval Britain, when churches was still 82 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 5: essentially Catholic before the Protestant Reformation, church rituals were usually 83 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 5: conducted in Latin, so most common as most parishioners wouldn't 84 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 5: necessarily understand the language that was being spoken, And in fact, 85 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 5: it's quite widely assessed that a lot of priests didn't 86 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 5: understand the words of the Latin rituals either, and they 87 00:05:11,320 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 5: learned a lot of them by wrote, so they just 88 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 5: they knew the sounds, they knew how to emulate a 89 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 5: Latin ritual rather than perform one. And those rituals would 90 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 5: take place behind a screen which was called the rude screen, 91 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 5: which is basically a wooden screen that's been pierced in 92 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 5: a decorative manner, so you could see behind, you could 93 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 5: see through it, but not really clearly, a little bit gauzy, 94 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 5: and there would also be in sense being burned as well, 95 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 5: and candlelight, so you've got a sort of spooky language 96 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 5: that you don't understand Latin conducted in a kind of 97 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 5: foggy candlelight, misty environment, which is quite spooky, as you say. 98 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 5: And on top of the rude screen, which was called 99 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 5: a rude screen because it would have the rude on 100 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 5: top of it, which is the image of Christ that 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 5: judgment day, quite foreboding. And of course a medieval church 102 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 5: would often be decorated with art, sometimes relating to the devil, 103 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 5: sometimes relating to saints, so the be all kinds of 104 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 5: supernatural imagery all around you, as well as the candle light, 105 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 5: the incense, the slightly opaque view of the ritual. Yeah, 106 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 5: it's really quite a magical environment, and I think that 107 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 5: that's how a lot of people felt about it. 108 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. You mentioned in this section that, for instance, one 109 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: might not have like a clear idea of how the 110 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: figure of Jesus factors into everything, which of course is 111 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: very easy to take for granted today, especially with among 112 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: modern Christians and people in Western society. But it's the 113 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: idea here that you would have sort of the vague 114 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 1: structure of the Christian religion and then just the common 115 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 1: individual is then having to sort of fill in the 116 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: gaps with other supernatural ideas. 117 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, to an extent, I think it would vary quite 118 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 5: a lot depending on how literate someone was or wasn't, 119 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 5: and how inquiring their mind was as to whether they're 120 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 5: actually asking their priest the answer to any of these 121 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 5: questions or not. But yeah, I think there's sort of 122 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 5: overarching feeling that a god exists, and they would hear 123 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 5: about Jesus, and they would hear about Mary, etc. But 124 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 5: they wouldn't necessarily know what their relationship was. So I'm 125 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 5: sure I've read an account before where someone was asked 126 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 5: you know, do you know who God and Jesus are? 127 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 5: And they would think that, oh, isn't Jesus God's uncle? 128 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 5: And they would be really unclear about the familiar relationships 129 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 5: that we might now think exists between them. 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: So how does the Reformation change this scenario. 131 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 5: Well, technically it's the reformations because there was like several 132 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 5: attempts to kind of move it along. But yeah, essentially 133 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 5: it was about trying to dispel some of the superstitions 134 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 5: that might have aggregated around believing God and Jesus over 135 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 5: the years. I think there was about a thousand years 136 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 5: worth of people sort of augmenting what was going on 137 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 5: in churches with their own ideas, and the Reformations were 138 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 5: supposed to be about stripping all that away and getting 139 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 5: back to the actual text of the Bible, particularly the 140 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 5: New Testament, not the Old Testament, and trying to worship 141 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 5: Jesus principally and also God, but you know, with the 142 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 5: whole Trinity, the Holy Ghost, and pretty much getting rid 143 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 5: of Mary and getting rid of all the saints and 144 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 5: all these other things that have kind of grown in 145 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 5: importance over the thousand ors of years before. 146 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: So how does the period of witchcraft persecution factor into 147 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: all of this, because I don't understand much of this 148 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: takes place in post medieval times, no matter how much 149 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 1: mean we might want to shove it back into prior centuries. 150 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's an interesting one because I think that belief 151 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 5: in witchcraft and beliefs about witchcraft actually didn't really change 152 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 5: very much during. 153 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 4: The period of witchcraft persecution. 154 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:53,199 Speaker 5: There were some new ones brought in, but essentially the 155 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 5: core beliefs about witchcraft were essentially the same, in my opinion, 156 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 5: they just became magnified. And that was partly through the 157 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 5: popularity of new pamphlets and literature and the printing press, 158 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 5: you know, the advent of the printing press, and partly 159 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 5: through I guess, in a way, I think the stripping 160 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 5: away of some of the superstitious aspects or the saintly 161 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 5: aspects as well, you know, where you could appeal for 162 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 5: help as particular saints, and all of that being stripped 163 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 5: away post Reformation, I think meant that people had a 164 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 5: bit more of a need to address supernatural feelings in 165 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 5: their lives almost and I think it's possible that witchcraft 166 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 5: beliefs and worry about it were almost they sort of 167 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 5: came into the vacuum. If you're like created by the 168 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 5: absence of a lot of the things that people used 169 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 5: to do pre Reformation. 170 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:51,000 Speaker 4: That's a fairly contentious argument. It's not that simple. You know. 171 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 5: It's probably more to do with the printing press than 172 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 5: anything else. The fact that sort of very salacious and 173 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 5: exciting stories about which is levels were being circulated in 174 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,559 Speaker 5: pamphlet form, and then literate people, people who could read, 175 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 5: would then you know, regurgitate these two people who couldn't, 176 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 5: and this kind of heightened awareness of the fact that 177 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 5: there could be more danger around than there was before 178 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 5: concerning witchcraft. 179 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 1: So you discuss some of this in the book as 180 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 1: being like the elite understanding of witchcraft and I guess 181 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: ultimately demonology, right, that's again coming down through printed material. 182 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: And then is it kind of like bumping heads and 183 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: then meshing with ideas that would have been more commonly 184 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,959 Speaker 1: held among more common and less wederate people. 185 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's kind of we get this kind of 186 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: very much. 187 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 5: History gives us more of a top down look at 188 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 5: what went on, whereas archaeology tends us to give us 189 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 5: a bottom up or kind of look at what went 190 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 5: on and really as other than Ralph Merrifield before me 191 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 5: and some of his colleagues who have been doing work 192 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 5: but not published, there wasn't really an awful lot of 193 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 5: people looking at witchcraft from the archaeology angle. So so 194 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 5: all we've ever seen really is from the history side, 195 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 5: top down, and I think an awful lot has been 196 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 5: neglected or missed for that reason. And so you know, 197 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 5: these ideas like like, for example, I talk about concealed shoes. Again, 198 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 5: some of our earliest examples of that are from the 199 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 5: fourteenth century, but we've also got examples of it from 200 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies, you know, And so so it's been 201 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 5: a it's been a complete continuum, you know, the which 202 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 5: the period of the witch trials as people think of it, 203 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 5: came and went, but this practice has steadily been carrying 204 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 5: on the whole time. 205 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 4: You know. 206 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 5: It's you know, you can say that it had a 207 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 5: period of magnification during the witch trials, yep, but it 208 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 5: hasn't gone away and it didn't leave, you know, and. 209 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 4: It's it's always been there. 210 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 5: So the common people, if you like, the sort of 211 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 5: illiterate people, maybe continue doing what they were doing. And 212 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 5: then they started to hear about these apparently new dangers 213 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 5: or more powerful witches, or that there was some kind 214 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 5: of panic going on, and. 215 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 4: It just raised everybody's fears. So there was always some fear. 216 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 5: You know, there was general fear of the dark, general 217 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 5: fear of the supernatural, especially particularly about around sleep, you know, 218 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 5: because how could you protect your house when you're asleep. 219 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 5: So that's one of the big worries that people had. 220 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 5: But you know, during the period of the some people 221 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 5: call it the witch craze. I don't really like that term, 222 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,439 Speaker 5: but you know, the kind of excitement about witches. Obviously 223 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 5: fear was heightened, so people did more things to try 224 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 5: and keep them away. And that's when you know, for example, 225 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 5: witch bottles were a direct, in my opinion, a direct 226 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,360 Speaker 5: response to the witch trials, to the period of heightened fear. 227 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 5: But the rest, all the other things seem to have 228 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 5: just become magnified, if you're, like, more important during that time, 229 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 5: but they'd always been there. 230 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 1: Now you've mentioned witch bottles, so that this might be 231 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: a good time to ask what is a witch bottle, 232 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: what would it contain? And where were they found? 233 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 5: Okay, so witch bottles were an awful lot of detail 234 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 5: here they were essentially German stoneware bottles, which in Germany 235 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 5: were known as Bartman's stoneware, nothing to do with the Simpsons. 236 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 5: And basically Germans had the ability to make stoneware, which 237 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 5: is this non porous, really hard bottle, which in Britain 238 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:31,319 Speaker 5: we couldn't make. 239 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 4: We only had earthenware. 240 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 5: So basically, when we found out about stoneware, we wanted 241 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 5: these bottles, and so they were shipped over by hundreds 242 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 5: of thousands, usually filled with beer or wine, and that 243 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 5: beer or wine would be consumed and the bottle would be 244 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 5: cast away. But the thing is, because these bottles were 245 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 5: so good that often be reused again. 246 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 4: And again and again. 247 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 5: But the significant thing about them is that they have 248 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 5: a really evil looking mask of a man on it. Yeah, 249 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 5: so they look quite anthropomorphic. So these bottles have a 250 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 5: salt glaze which gives a kind of leathery skin like appearance. 251 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 5: Then they have this beastly looking face on the neck, 252 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 5: and then they have a big round belly which often 253 00:14:06,720 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 5: has a kind of armorial shield on it, which sometimes 254 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 5: that's a little bit occult or a little bit kind 255 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 5: of a spooky and sometimes as well, they're quite sort 256 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,080 Speaker 5: of petal like quite flowerlike, which is which resembles another 257 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 5: one of the marks that often crop up in this. 258 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 4: Area of study as well. 259 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,000 Speaker 5: And so for that reason, you know, if you were 260 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 5: going to do anything magical, you would want to use 261 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 5: this bottle because it looks anthropomorphic. It's quite a spooky 262 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 5: looking bottle. You couldn't imagine a better bottle for doing 263 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 5: magic with. Put it that way if you want it, 264 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 5: if you're sitting at home and you want to do 265 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 5: some so anyway, these bottles, we quite often find them 266 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 5: underneath the floor, sometimes up to a meter deep, underneath 267 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 5: a flag stone, in front of a hearth, or directly 268 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 5: underneath the hearth, sometimes integrated into an ingle nook into 269 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 5: the wall, and they're often upside down in the ground. 270 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 5: We're not entirely sure why the upside down thing happens, 271 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 5: but inside the bottles this is when we x ray them, 272 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 5: they often show evidence of lots of pins and nails 273 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,400 Speaker 5: that have accreted or aggregated and coagulated around the neck, 274 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 5: whether gravity is just taking them down towards the neck. 275 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 4: And then when we open them and have a. 276 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 5: Look inside, they've often got some liquid, a big lock 277 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,239 Speaker 5: of hair, sometimes sort of thorns or other pins. Importantly, 278 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 5: the pins and nails which are found inside are usually 279 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,600 Speaker 5: deliberately bent as well. And when I say deliberately, we 280 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 5: have assessed the angle of the bend, and it seems 281 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 5: like in many cases these nails and pins all been 282 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 5: bent around the same iron pole. So someone's deliberately sat 283 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 5: there and gone around lots of pins and nails before 284 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 5: adding them into the bottle. 285 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 4: So there's clearly an element of sort of. 286 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 5: Ritual or like a quite a lot of effort goes 287 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 5: into putting it together, and then of course you have 288 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 5: to dig this really deep hole to put it down there. 289 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 5: And so essentially what we've got is an anthropomorphic bottle, 290 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 5: so it looks like a human and inside it we 291 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 5: have the liquid, it turns out through analysis is human urine, 292 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 5: so we've got a human's urine in there. We often 293 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 5: also have nail clippings, nail pairings in there, a big 294 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 5: lock of hair, and then all these pins and nails 295 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 5: that have been deliberately and meticulously bent before being added 296 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 5: into the bottle, which has then been sealed with a 297 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 5: bung or a cork and then buried upside down under 298 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 5: the earth, covered over and a big flagstone put on 299 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 5: top of it. So it's quite a lot of effort, 300 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 5: isn't it quite a lot of effort, right, And what 301 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 5: I think is happening here is that because fifty of 302 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 5: all of these bottles are found by the hearth or 303 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 5: in the immediate vicinity of the hearth, so that we 304 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 5: again we've got this focus on the hearth. And so 305 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 5: the idea is, if something bad, like a spell or 306 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 5: an energy or maybe a demon or something like that 307 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 5: is potentially traveling down your chimney trying to attack you, 308 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 5: it's plunging down the chimney trying to find you. It 309 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 5: detects this human like figure that smells like you. It's 310 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 5: got your hair in it, it's got your fingernail clippings 311 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 5: in it, it's got your urine in it, and it 312 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 5: dives down to attack you. And when it gets inside 313 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,439 Speaker 5: the bottle, it then gets impaled on all these dead pins, 314 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 5: which you've deliberately killed one by one before putting them 315 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:10,679 Speaker 5: into the bottles. And there's kind of like the ghosts 316 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 5: of pins there to work against the ghosts that's trying 317 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 5: to attack you. And so there are some some bits 318 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 5: of folklore that suggests that spirits and witches aren't very 319 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 5: good at traveling backwards, so once they get into a spot, 320 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 5: they find it difficult to get out. So maybe there's 321 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 5: an element of that, like a kind of trap as well. 322 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 4: So like a trap slash. 323 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 5: Impaling people, you know, a decoy that has a trap 324 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 5: within it. That seems to be what's going on, but 325 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 5: confusingly there is. There are some texts that relate that 326 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 5: talk about witch bottles that describe something different, right, So, 327 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 5: there are several texts in the late seventeenth century that 328 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 5: talk about this idea of boiling a witch bottle, that 329 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 5: if you think you've been bewitched, or if you know 330 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 5: someone who's been bewitched, you can take a bottle and 331 00:17:56,680 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 5: you can get them to urinate into it, and you 332 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 5: can add some pins and nails to it and boil 333 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 5: it on a fire. You could to bug it up 334 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 5: and boil it on a fire. And the idea is 335 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 5: that this will that the bottle will act as kind 336 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,400 Speaker 5: of a substitute bladder for the you know, and by 337 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 5: boiling it you're causing pain to the witch. Because they 338 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 5: had this belief that if you've been bewitched. There's something 339 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 5: of the essence of the witch inside you as well. 340 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 5: So if you then urinate into this bottle and do 341 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 5: something to it, it's going to have an effect on 342 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:30,240 Speaker 5: the witch. And so the thinking is in these texts 343 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 5: that excruciating pain is cause to the witch, who will 344 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 5: then come seeking you out and will come knocking on 345 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 5: your door begging for you to stop boiling the bottle, 346 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 5: and in return you can barter your freedom from the 347 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 5: spit whatever spell has been put on you. And generally speaking, 348 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 5: it says that if that fails, you should then bury 349 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 5: the bottle. So that's interesting, but it's different to what 350 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 5: we find in the buried bottles. Okay, so the buried 351 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 5: bottles obviously have hair, which isn't mentioned in any of 352 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 5: these test The texts also don't mention bending the pins 353 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 5: to kill them if you like, you know. So what 354 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 5: we've got is two separate ways of working that are 355 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 5: thought to be behind these two practices. 356 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 4: The boiling things seems to. 357 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 5: Be depending on the idea that you can cause pain 358 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 5: to the witch's bladder by sort of acting upon a 359 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 5: substance that might be infused partly with the witch, whereas 360 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 5: the ones that are buried seem to be acting as 361 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 5: a decoy in a trap. And I think that that practice, 362 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 5: the one where the bottles are buried, actually resembles and 363 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 5: has a lot in common with other practices like shoes 364 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 5: and like some of the marks and all sorts, whereas 365 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 5: the one with the boiling seems to be well. One 366 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 5: of my friends who was studying that called Dr Annie Thwaite. 367 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 5: She was studying it for a long time, and she 368 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 5: called it the urinary experiment and saw it as a 369 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 5: kind of pseudomedical practice that people at the time thought 370 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 5: that supernatural energies were real, and that this was a 371 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 5: way of potentially removing them from someone. You know, they 372 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 5: were sort of using medical theory, if you like, to 373 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,159 Speaker 5: try and remove the presence of a witch. Whereas the 374 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,239 Speaker 5: one where you bury them seems to have more in 375 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 5: common with folk practices that have been going on for 376 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 5: a very long time. So I'm not sure, you know. 377 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 5: They certainly both use the same type of bottle. They 378 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 5: both emerge at about the same time, which is the 379 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 5: third quarter of the seventeenth century or thereabouts, but two 380 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 5: separate practices. And I wonder if you know that you 381 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 5: have the written one that's more about medicine and science, 382 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 5: and you have the the other one, the buried one 383 00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 5: that's like more going with the real old school kind 384 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 5: of folk magic to how to get rid of a witch. 385 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,879 Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, it's just just so so amazing and so 386 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: like very roughly speaking, like what sort of numbers are 387 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: we talking about in terms of surviving witch bottles that 388 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: have been recovered. 389 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 5: Since I last started counting? I mean, I think when 390 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 5: I published, there was about one hundred and thirty odd 391 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 5: bella means, which is the German German type ones, and 392 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 5: there was probably another eighty or ninety of glass ones 393 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,440 Speaker 5: that I had on a file, and I wouldn't be 394 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 5: surprised if the German stoneware ones was easily an excess 395 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,480 Speaker 5: of two hundred by now with the amount of reports. 396 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 5: But you have to bear in mind that these things 397 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 5: are only ever found when someone demolishes an old building 398 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 5: or excavates under an old building, So there's probably a 399 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 5: vast amount more that have been discovered that just weren't reported. 400 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 5: Because these bottles are actually quite valuable, so you know, 401 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 5: you can sell you can sell one that wasn't used 402 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 5: as a witch bottle for potentially four to five hundred 403 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 5: pounds on an eBay, and if it was used as 404 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 5: a witch bottle, I've seen people selling them for up 405 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 5: to fifteen hundred pounds, so you know, so, yeah, they're 406 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 5: reasonably valuable when it comes to the black market. So 407 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 5: I think a lot of builders and homeowners when they 408 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:51,879 Speaker 5: find these, they're curious, but they also see an opportunity 409 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 5: for making a bit of money. And so we don't 410 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 5: know exactly how many there were, but I wouldn't be 411 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 5: surprised if they were maybe fifty times more common than 412 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 5: my figures suggest, No, maybe even more than that. 413 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:16,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, now we've twice mentioned shoes, So if you would 414 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: explain how to shoes factor into all of this, because 415 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: on one hand, we have the witch bottle here, which 416 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, once explained, has all of these obvious occult 417 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: and supernatural aspects to it. But but shoes we take 418 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: for granted. Any number of us just have shoes, probably 419 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: piled towards the front of our house, and we don't 420 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: attach any kind of special importance to them. 421 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 5: That's right, and that's because we have an amazing factory 422 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 5: production system that makes them cheap and easy to buy. 423 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 5: But once upon a time they were you know, artisan 424 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 5: made things and of course we do actually still have 425 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 5: a culture of the professional artisan shoemaker still exists, and 426 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 5: there's still people who care about the history of shoes 427 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,480 Speaker 5: and still make very expensive handmade shoes. But of course, 428 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 5: once upon a time that was the only kind of 429 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 5: shoe you could get would be a handmade shoe, and 430 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 5: they were quite expensive, and so they were repaired and 431 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 5: repaired and repaired until you eventually wouldn't you couldn't use 432 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 5: them anymore. Basically, so they were quite valuable in more 433 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,440 Speaker 5: ways than you can imagine now. 434 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: But yeah, they are that. 435 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 5: Probably the most common object that's found in buildings is 436 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 5: concealed shoes. They're usually concealed on their own. It's usually 437 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 5: just one shoe. In the old days, shoes weren't made 438 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 5: to fit a left foot on the right foot. They 439 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 5: were just the same and they would take the shape 440 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 5: of the wearer's feet gradually over time. But these ones 441 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 5: that we find, they're as I say, they're almost always 442 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 5: an odd shoe. I think there's slightly less than ten 443 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 5: percent are found as pears, and they're almost always extremely 444 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 5: well worn, because who would get rid of a brand 445 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 5: new shoe with them being so expensive. Like I said before, 446 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 5: and also they then wouldn't be able to if they 447 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 5: hadn't taken the shape of the wearer's foot, they couldn't 448 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 5: perform the function which I give, which I suggest that 449 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 5: they have, which is not just me, other people too, 450 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 5: but that they act as a kind of decoy a 451 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 5: bit like we were talking about with the witch bottle, 452 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 5: that it's got some hair and some urine in it, 453 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,719 Speaker 5: so it kind of fools any evil energies that are 454 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 5: looking for you into thinking that you're there. It's the 455 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 5: same idea with shoes that an evil entity or a 456 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 5: spell or something negative trying to get into your house. 457 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 5: It's seeking you to cause you harm, and it finds 458 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 5: your shoe, which might have been on your foot for 459 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 5: many years and has taken every you know, it's uniquely 460 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 5: your shoe. 461 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 4: It wouldn't for anywhere else anyone else. 462 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 5: Coincidentally, this is also where the Cinderella myth comes from, 463 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 5: you know, the fact that shoe has become a unique 464 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 5: thing to someone's foot. And yeah, so it then plunges 465 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 5: down to attack the shoe as a decoy, and it 466 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 5: attacks it instead of you. So it's essentially acting as 467 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 5: a kind of lightning conductor. It's drawing negative energy away 468 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 5: from you, which is great, isn't it, And the idea 469 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 5: that it's kind of trapping the energy inside it. Now, 470 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 5: the idea that the shoe can act as a trap 471 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 5: is weird, okay, but there is some kind of historical 472 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 5: evidence for it. So there was a fourteenth century priest 473 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 5: from England, from a little village called North Marston in Buckinghamshire, 474 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 5: and he was When I say he was an unofficial saint, 475 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 5: I mean he was never ever canonized by the Catholic Church, 476 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 5: so people regarded him as a saint even though he 477 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,120 Speaker 5: wasn't actually one. And he is reputed to have cast 478 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 5: the devil into a boot, which is a remarkable thing 479 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 5: to do, as I'm sure you can imagine. But the 480 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 5: interesting thing about John Sean is that even though he 481 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 5: wasn't officially a saint, pilgrimages to his shrine for a 482 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 5: period of about two hundred and fifty years, was the 483 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 5: second most popular shrine in Britain, and second only to 484 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 5: Thomas A. Beckett at Canterbury Cathedral. In fact, he was 485 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 5: so popular that the monarchy in Britain stole his relics 486 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 5: from the church at North Marston and moved them to 487 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 5: Windsor so that they could benefit from the money that 488 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 5: the pilgrims brought to come and visit his shrine. And 489 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 5: then those remains and relics have then been returned to 490 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 5: norse Maston when his popularity waned. But the interesting thing 491 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 5: is that the little pilgrim badges that people would pick 492 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 5: up when they went to visit his shrine, all of 493 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 5: them show him holding a big boot with a little 494 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:16,719 Speaker 5: devil poking out of the top. And we're talking hundreds 495 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 5: of thousands of people, maybe even millions of people would 496 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 5: have had a badge that showed a devil trapped in 497 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 5: a boot. Yep, And not just that, but an awful 498 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 5: lot of churches had imagery. Obviously to do with all 499 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,239 Speaker 5: of the saints. He was an incredibly popular saint, and 500 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 5: so many many churches would have had an image of 501 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 5: john Shaw and holding a boot with a devil trapped 502 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 5: in it. So from the fourteenth century onwards, this was 503 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 5: a really popular idea that you could trap a devil 504 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 5: in a boot, and funny enough that some of our 505 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 5: earliest examples come from that time. So back to the 506 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,159 Speaker 5: shoes themselves, as I say, sometimes you find them singly. 507 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 5: Sometimes you find them in large groups. Sometimes you'll find 508 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 5: there'd be a void in a house just through some 509 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 5: sort of quirk of construction that people can drop a 510 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 5: shoe down. And for example, the plow at Sitting Born 511 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 5: in Kent, there was over one hundred shoes I believe 512 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,639 Speaker 5: collected from that building from four different deposition points, and 513 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 5: those shoes have been dropped into those voids over generations, 514 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 5: so subsequent owners of the building all carried on the 515 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 5: same practice of putting old worn shoes down the same holes, 516 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 5: and you end up with this record of footwear over 517 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 5: the ages, as well as evidence of people's desire to 518 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,080 Speaker 5: draw evil away from the people in the house. 519 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: Now, what about dried cats? Why dried cats? 520 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 4: Oh, the poor little cats. 521 00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 5: I love cats, so I would never do this to 522 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 5: a cat, and I would never advocate anyone ever does 523 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 5: this to a cat. This is a tradition from the past. 524 00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,199 Speaker 5: We don't do it these days, So please don't go 525 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:48,439 Speaker 5: hiding cats in your houses people. 526 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 4: But yeah, it's. 527 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,679 Speaker 5: Really really common throughout the whole of Europe and Britain 528 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 5: and Australia actually and the USA. So we have examples 529 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 5: from from all over There's also an example that I 530 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 5: have on a record from Canada, but I don't have 531 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 5: so many records from Canada. I've also got a record 532 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 5: from Chile actually, so it's a very, very widespread and 533 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 5: it seems to be. Earlier on I mentioned about people 534 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 5: having been very concerned with who was or how was 535 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 5: the house being protected while they slept, and so there's 536 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,640 Speaker 5: an element of this going on with cats. Because they're 537 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,760 Speaker 5: semi nocturnal, they are quite mysterious in their behavior. In 538 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 5: certainly in the British Isles, there was a belief about 539 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 5: the witch's familiar that was often focused on cats as well, 540 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 5: so that kind of leans towards how mysteriously people thought 541 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 5: about them. But yeah, essentially they're benevolent little creatures that 542 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 5: are in our lives. They help control pests. But also 543 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 5: we must also consider the fact that they breed like 544 00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 5: wildfire if they're not used in spade as we do 545 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 5: in the modern world. So basically, there were too many 546 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 5: cats and they were semi noted or generally helpful, and 547 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 5: so people started to they fell naturally into a helpful 548 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 5: role essentially, So a lot of these practices. One of 549 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,160 Speaker 5: the things you'll find in common with them is that 550 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 5: people were thinking about how do how do we affect 551 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 5: something that's happening on the supernatural plane as it were. Okay, 552 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 5: so most people weren't able to be supernatural, they weren't 553 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,480 Speaker 5: witches or wizards, yep. But there were these things happening 554 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 5: to them that were coming from the supernatural plane, or 555 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 5: they believed were happening to them from the supernatural plane, 556 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 5: and so they had to find ways of affecting it, yep. 557 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 5: And they had to find special little recipes and special 558 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 5: little practices that would have an impact on those things. So, 559 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 5: for example, these old shoes that are no longer worth using, 560 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 5: no longer worth keeping on your foot, are essentially dead shoes. 561 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 5: So they've died, they've flipped over to the other side, 562 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 5: so they're now effective against the other side, against the 563 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 5: supernatural realm, if you like. And then with witch bottles, 564 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,440 Speaker 5: you know, you've got a big lock of hair removed 565 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 5: from your hair or nail pairings clipped off. These are 566 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 5: parts of you that we're attached to you and we're 567 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 5: considered to be alive, which are now dead because and 568 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 5: so they're now on the other side, acting as a 569 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,480 Speaker 5: kind of lure or bait on the other side, and 570 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 5: then the same thing with these nails. And then we 571 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 5: come to the point where in that way of thinking, 572 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,959 Speaker 5: here is a cat that's alive but friendly and can 573 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 5: control pests. If we make it dead, if we flip 574 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 5: it into the other side, we can hope that it 575 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 5: continues that role on that side, Yeah, as a presence 576 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 5: in the house. And so what I think is going 577 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 5: on is that these cats are being essentially kind of sacrificed, 578 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 5: if you like, to the house to act as little 579 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 5: protectors of the house while you sleep, because they're awake 580 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 5: while you're asleep, and they're catching vermin. They're looking out 581 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 5: for things that might come in that might harm you, like, 582 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 5: you know, instead of pests, you know, exchange the word 583 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,959 Speaker 5: pests for spells. You know, negative energy is coming in, 584 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 5: you know. And I think that's what people were doing. 585 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 5: And there's also there's a little bit of I think 586 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 5: that the idea that I've just expressed to you is 587 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 5: probably the main one, but people have often thought about 588 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,239 Speaker 5: where the cats were killed as a foundation sacrifice, that 589 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 5: you give a life to the house so that it 590 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 5: went then take a life later by falling down on 591 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 5: you and I once had a very brief discussion with 592 00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 5: Terry Pratchett about dried cats, and that was that was 593 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 5: his idea, was that he thought that was what was 594 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 5: going on. But I think it's more to do with this, 595 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,520 Speaker 5: you know, the role of a cat in death. I 596 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 5: think it's more to do with what I said to 597 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 5: you earlier about how, you know, you take some of 598 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,240 Speaker 5: the qualities of the cat, and by essentially killing it 599 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 5: but keeping it within the house, you've hopefully got a 600 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 5: helper within your house who's going to even why would 601 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 5: it want to help you if you've just taken its life, right, 602 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 5: But I think that that was thinking that was going 603 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 5: on there, And we find them in all sorts of places, 604 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,160 Speaker 5: find them, Like the first one I ever came across 605 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 5: was actually in a village I used to live in, 606 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 5: which is weird because I'd moved away. And then the 607 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 5: first report that came through my website was of just 608 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 5: a few streets away from where I used to live, 609 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 5: and a dried cat was found sandwiched in between some 610 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 5: layers of thatch in a house. It was basically a 611 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 5: sixteenth century cottage, but they think that the cat dates 612 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 5: from one hundred years later. Yeah, and it was squashed 613 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 5: quite flat, you know, the way, quite serious pressure had 614 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 5: been put on it. There's no way it could have 615 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 5: got there by itself. It had been placed there quite deliberately. 616 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 5: But yeah, we find others that are sometimes strapped to 617 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 5: flaw joists, you know, they literally could not have got 618 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 5: there by accident. And there were others that I found, 619 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 5: not me personally, but there was another one found sandwich 620 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 5: between tiles and plaster in the roof of a church, 621 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 5: clearly had been placed there by the builders. And that's 622 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 5: another thing we're thinking about. Some of these some of 623 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 5: these methods and practices were put there by the builders, 624 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 5: and some were put there by the homeowners. So sometimes, 625 00:32:57,880 --> 00:32:59,200 Speaker 5: you know, when we're looking at an old house and 626 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 5: looking at all the fine so we get from an 627 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 5: old house, we tried to discern, you know, which of 628 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 5: them were put the out by the builders and which 629 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 5: were added later. 630 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: So was there generally an idea that the builders were 631 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: sort of on the side of the house and on 632 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 1: the side of the occupants. Because I'm I'm reminded of 633 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 1: something I was reading about in Chinese traditions. I believe 634 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: this was from a book by Philip A. Kuhn about 635 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: the Chinese Sorcery Scare of seventeen sixty eight, and in 636 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: this one, a lot of it had to do with 637 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 1: written magical protections that were used during during a homes 638 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,760 Speaker 1: construction to protect against potential curses leveled by the actual 639 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,560 Speaker 1: laborers against the owners or future occupants of a house. 640 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 5: That's an interesting one. I quite you can send me 641 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 5: that reference later. I've read that one. But yeah, but yeah, 642 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 5: I think that generally speaking in England, for sure, because 643 00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 5: that's why I tend to know the most about it. 644 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 5: But in England it seems like it was an additional 645 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 5: service that the builders could provide or could offer. So 646 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 5: say you've got two builders and you're trying to assess 647 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 5: which ones you want to pay to give them a 648 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 5: contract to build your house. You know, one of them 649 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 5: has clear expertise in marking the timbers in such a 650 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,880 Speaker 5: way that it will act us and you know that 651 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 5: it will repel evil just through the timbers that have 652 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,800 Speaker 5: been put up there, you know. And so you're gonna 653 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 5: you're going to go with the builders that can help 654 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 5: protect you in a supernatural way slightly more than you 655 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 5: would another company that wasn't so good at doing that. Yeah, 656 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 5: so it's another service that some builders offered, and but 657 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 5: it's a bit more nuanced than that, because I think that, 658 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 5: you know, you might have somebody who is the principal 659 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,799 Speaker 5: builder might employ a carpenter and a stonemason, and they 660 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 5: might both have individual practices that they could do, and 661 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 5: whether they would do them on that project or what 662 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 5: might depend on whether they liked you or not, or 663 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 5: you know, how skilled they were in that in that field. 664 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 5: So there's quite a few different, you know, elements of 665 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:55,919 Speaker 5: play here. I wouldn't say it's necessarily as simple as 666 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 5: one builder would give you the all round service. You know, 667 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 5: they'd give you their cat, their mark, all this kind 668 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 5: of stuff. And I think some of these practices were 669 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 5: a direct response to people feeling that they've been bewitched 670 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 5: as well, so that would have definitely come after a 671 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 5: building had been put up. But there were certain things 672 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 5: that certain marks in particular, and you know, I do 673 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 5: think that builders leave shoes, for example, and sometimes they 674 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 5: include glass bottles, sometimes empty ones in buildings as well 675 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 5: as part of you know, in addition to some of 676 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 5: the other mason's kind of traditions like the topping out 677 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 5: ceremonies and things like that, but in terms of specific 678 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,399 Speaker 5: counter witchcraft, there was quite a few things builders and 679 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:39,799 Speaker 5: their trains people could do. 680 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: Now this is too big of a question, we can 681 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,719 Speaker 1: skip this one. But I was also fascinated by the 682 00:35:52,760 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: whole topic of horse skulls being included in foundation and 683 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: in floors, because on one hand, it makes sense that 684 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: it would line up with some of the things we've 685 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 1: already talked about here, like the horse as an important 686 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:15,760 Speaker 1: animal and having an important role and for the humans 687 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: that are doing this. But then there's this whole potential 688 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: acoustic angle. Right. 689 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been grappling with the whole notion of horse 690 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,560 Speaker 5: skulls and the different theories that play for quite some time. 691 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,600 Speaker 5: I don't think I haven't quite finished thinking about it 692 00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 5: all yet, but I think I've got more answers than 693 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 5: I had before. So when we were talking about cats 694 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 5: earlier being nocturnal and people worried about who was looking 695 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 5: after their house and they were asleep, I think that 696 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 5: the horses play a role in that. And it took 697 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 5: me a while to realize this, but basically, horses can, 698 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 5: although they don't always choose to, they can sleep standing 699 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 5: up and with their eyes open, so they can be 700 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,000 Speaker 5: in a sleep state but look like they're awake, you know, 701 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,759 Speaker 5: and they're and they are basically in a shallow sleep. 702 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 5: They're ready, ready for action, ready to be alert for 703 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 5: the benefit of the other horses that they are with, 704 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 5: who might just be literally falling asleep on their back 705 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 5: with their hoofs in the air. You know, some of 706 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 5: them are like that, but there'll be one or two 707 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 5: of them that can be awake in this kind of 708 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 5: light sleep with their eyes open. And I think that 709 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,640 Speaker 5: people knew that. So this idea of horses as incredibly 710 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 5: vigilant creatures was I think part of what's going on. 711 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 5: And then we also have the fact that if you 712 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 5: take a horse's head and you deflesh it, to use 713 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 5: a horrible word, a defleshed horse skull is a really 714 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,359 Speaker 5: dramatic looking thing. I presume you've the big tradition of 715 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 5: using horses in the States, obviously, I presume you've seen 716 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 5: a horse skull. You know they are there. They're quite 717 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 5: quite impressive looking beasts. And I think that when when 718 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 5: they're in that state, you know, when it's just a 719 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 5: horse skull, they seem to have almost a super actual 720 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,800 Speaker 5: power at them. You know, they take on a different persona. 721 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 5: It's not like, you know, a dead cat is a 722 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 5: dead cat, you know, whereas a horse skull as opposed 723 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 5: to a living horse is a kind of supernatural thing. 724 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 5: It looks different and it's regarded differently, I think as well. 725 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 5: And some of the ideas at play in counter witchcraft 726 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 5: are about basically being scarier than something else. So you know, 727 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 5: so if you've got something that's really scary, a lesser 728 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 5: scary thing might be scared away by it, you know. 729 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 5: Like there's there's one tradition, for example, with rug working 730 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 5: that I've heard about where certain rugs that are put 731 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 5: in front of the fire would often have a red 732 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,760 Speaker 5: diamond pattern on them, also like just a red diamond 733 00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 5: in the middle or in the corners or something. And 734 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 5: some of the folklore around this is that a devil 735 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,279 Speaker 5: poking his head down the chimney would poke his head 736 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 5: down the chimney and think, oh, my goodness, there's already 737 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 5: a devil in the house. I won't go interfering with this, 738 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 5: and we'll go scarping up the other way to go 739 00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 5: and find the house that doesn't have a devil in 740 00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 5: it because the diamond does met to represent this devil's 741 00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 5: i And I think in a way, this idea with 742 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 5: the horse skull is that they are particularly frightening and 743 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 5: quite large, so they could actually intimidate and frighten away 744 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:10,919 Speaker 5: other things. 745 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 4: And I think that the. 746 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,839 Speaker 5: Sort of proof of that is that horse skulls are 747 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,840 Speaker 5: used in some of these folk dance traditions which appears 748 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 5: to be about scaring away spirits, like the marry Luid 749 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 5: and certain other ones that like the obbios and what's 750 00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 5: the other one called the hood and horse as well, 751 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 5: you know, these kind of dances and rituals that have 752 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 5: these kind of horse like figures that go dancing around 753 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 5: and converting around the countryside. And you know, with with 754 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 5: the marry Luid, for example, there's also a custom in 755 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 5: that of sweeping the hearth and cleaning the hearth away 756 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 5: with this figure that's a horse skull and a big cape, 757 00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,680 Speaker 5: and that again seems to sort of tune in with 758 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,680 Speaker 5: this idea of protecting the hearth as well. So yeah, 759 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:54,600 Speaker 5: I think that the horse skulls, you know, and on 760 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 5: top of that, there's all this ancient myth about horses 761 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 5: as well, you know, and the idea that horses were 762 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 5: thought to literally toe the sun up, you know, at sunrise, 763 00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:09,359 Speaker 5: and chariots of the gods almost you know, and they 764 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 5: were also the way that people access the. 765 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 4: Underworld sometimes as well. 766 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 5: You know, you would ride your horse to Valhalla or 767 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 5: it would take you to the underworld. There's all these 768 00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 5: really old ideas about horses as supernatural beings that had 769 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:23,920 Speaker 5: access to other worlds. 770 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 4: Almost. Yeah, at the. 771 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 5: Same time, they've got this really multi sort of sort 772 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 5: of multi functional role almost on a mythic level in 773 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 5: a human life, you know. But ultimately, when we're talking 774 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 5: about the period, this period of the Witch Trials, if 775 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,040 Speaker 5: you want to look at that period, for example, we're 776 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,759 Speaker 5: talking about animals that are broadly benevolent to humans. You know, 777 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,759 Speaker 5: we don't see them simply as eating animals, you know, 778 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 5: although they were eaten and still are in some countries. 779 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 4: But yeah, they were you know, kind of a benevolent 780 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 4: role in our lives. But also this kind of. 781 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 5: Incredible vigilance about them, and also there's kind of fearsome 782 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 5: aspect to them when they are in the shape of 783 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 5: a horse skull. And in my book, I do cite 784 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 5: one example from I think it's eighteen ninety seven where 785 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:12,759 Speaker 5: this is actually reported in a really good book about 786 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 5: folklore in Cambridgeshire, where this building company we're essentially laying 787 00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 5: the foundations for a new chapel in Cambridgeshire, and they 788 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,160 Speaker 5: sent the builder's lad off to get a horse's head 789 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 5: from the knacker's yard because they had a very strong 790 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 5: tradition of placing a horse's head in the base of 791 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 5: the foundations, which at first you think this is a 792 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 5: foundation sacrifice, but it's not that simple because after they've 793 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,320 Speaker 5: poured some beer over it, and they've all shovel with 794 00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 5: various bits of stone work and everything and earth over 795 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 5: the top of it, they then said that they were 796 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 5: doing this quite clearly to ward off evil and witchcraft, 797 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,560 Speaker 5: you know, so it's not as simple as thinking foundation 798 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 5: sacrifice appeasing local spirits. They very clearly believed this was 799 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 5: for warding off evil and witchcraft. Idea of including a 800 00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,200 Speaker 5: horse's head in the base of a foundation trench in 801 00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 5: eighteen ninety seven, which you know is well into the 802 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,160 Speaker 5: industrial era, and we know that there are many examples 803 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 5: of horse skulls and horse bones found underneath nonconformist chapels 804 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 5: throughout all of Wales and probably much of England as well. 805 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 5: And these many of these chapels were built well into 806 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 5: the nineteen forties, you know. And yet we also know 807 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 5: that horse skulls were concealed underdwellings in the fifteenth century, 808 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 5: because we've got archaeological records of them. Yeah, and that's 809 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 5: the whole idea of horse skulls being concealed instead of 810 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 5: the whole horse. I'm not sure exactly when that happened, 811 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,480 Speaker 5: you know, because the Viking has used to conceal whole horses, 812 00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 5: will not conceal them, but bury them and have lots 813 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 5: of rich horse to do with them. But at some 814 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 5: point between that period and the fifteenth century it became 815 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,720 Speaker 5: much more about the horse's head or the horse's skull. 816 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 5: I'm not sure exactly when. 817 00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,640 Speaker 1: It's fascinating and confusing, No, no, now is there is 818 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,759 Speaker 1: there also an idea that there might have been an 819 00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: acoustic benefit in some of these cases to having the 820 00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 1: horse skull lender there. 821 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 5: I'm glad you brought me back to that because I 822 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:16,879 Speaker 5: clearly wandered away from that topic. But yeah, so there 823 00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 5: is this idea that somehow horses act as natural amplifiers 824 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 5: or acoustic enhancers in buildings. So when people first started 825 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 5: looking at the practice of concealed horse skulls, particularly in Ireland, 826 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,560 Speaker 5: actually a paper by Shaun O'Sullivan I think it was 827 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 5: in nineteen forty five, but the references in my book 828 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 5: if I got that wrong. But yeah, he was asking, 829 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 5: you know, what was the reason for them concealing these 830 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 5: horse skulls underneath stones in front of the hearth in 831 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,640 Speaker 5: many of these cottages. And the answer he got from 832 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 5: any of these people was that it made the dancing 833 00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,040 Speaker 5: sound better in the evening, you know, so when they 834 00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 5: were gathered together in the evening around the fire and 835 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 5: they were doing some Irish dancing, it sounded nicer by 836 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:05,400 Speaker 5: having a horse skull underneath the stone. And then similarly 837 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 5: in England when they found twenty four. 838 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:10,520 Speaker 4: Horse skulls beneath the. 839 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,680 Speaker 5: Floor of the Portsway Inn in Herefordshire, which is in 840 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,680 Speaker 5: Staunton on why this village, they said it made the 841 00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 5: fiddle go better, made the fiddle sound better. And then 842 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 5: in Sweden, for example, when Albert san Cleff was researching 843 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 5: horse skulls beneath barns threshing barns in Sweden, you know, 844 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 5: he came to the conclusion mostly through what people told 845 00:44:34,239 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 5: him that it made the flails sound better when they 846 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:41,480 Speaker 5: were threshing wheat. But you know, I find it I 847 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,359 Speaker 5: struggle with it a little bit because, you know, when 848 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 5: I'm not doing this kind of research, I am also 849 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,759 Speaker 5: a musician. I've been playing guitar for over thirty years. 850 00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,319 Speaker 5: I think I'm quite good at it. And actually, but yeah, 851 00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,239 Speaker 5: i have a horse skull on top of the bookshelf 852 00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 5: behind my head right now, and I also played guitar 853 00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:59,279 Speaker 5: in this room quite a lot, and I've certainly not 854 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 5: noticed any kind of ringing or pleasant harmonious sound because 855 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 5: of it. It may be that I need to attach 856 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 5: the horse skull to a floorboard with a big screw 857 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:11,720 Speaker 5: in order to notice any benefit. 858 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:13,839 Speaker 4: I haven't yet tested that. 859 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:17,600 Speaker 5: Let's just say that I'm dubious about the acoustic benefits 860 00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:21,800 Speaker 5: of horse skulls, especially because I'd say about fifty percent 861 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 5: of the examples I am aware of are in locations 862 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 5: where a lot of the sound that they could produce 863 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 5: is absorbed by the earth that they're set in, or 864 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,680 Speaker 5: they're in a part of the building that wouldn't you know, 865 00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:34,719 Speaker 5: sound wouldn't reach that part of the building, you know. 866 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,160 Speaker 5: So you know, so I'm a little bit dubious about that, 867 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 5: And I think that a lot of the reasons why 868 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,439 Speaker 5: people gave this explanation is because it was a way 869 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,920 Speaker 5: of saying that you weren't doing something heretical or superstitious. 870 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,720 Speaker 5: You know, if you said, you're you know, you're walking 871 00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,319 Speaker 5: down the street with a pair of horse gulls under 872 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,080 Speaker 5: each arm, and the local vicar comes up to you, 873 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 5: So what on earth are you doing that? Oh, it's 874 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:01,040 Speaker 5: to improve the acoustics, when in the evening, of course 875 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 5: it is, you know, and I would say that probably 876 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,239 Speaker 5: a big clay bowl or something would be better at it. 877 00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:09,360 Speaker 4: I mean, maybe it's more expensive. 878 00:46:09,360 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 5: Obviously we used to have, you know, our transport culture 879 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 5: was completely dominated by the horse for centuries, so there 880 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,319 Speaker 5: was an awful lot of available horse skulls, you know. 881 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 5: They maybe this was a use people found for them, 882 00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 5: and maybe people really believed that there was Maybe there is. 883 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:26,399 Speaker 4: Some marginal or acoustic benefit that I'm not aware of. 884 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,120 Speaker 5: But I personally I think that that explanation began as 885 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 5: an excuse for why someone is walking around with a 886 00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 5: horse skull trying to dig a hole into their house, 887 00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,720 Speaker 5: rather than because they thought, I desperately need to improve 888 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,040 Speaker 5: the acoustics in my house and a horse skull must 889 00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 5: be the way I do that. 890 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, as we mentioned already, these artifacts tend to emerge 891 00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:53,440 Speaker 1: during cases of demolition or renovation, digging up the ground 892 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: beneath the old dwellings and old buildings, etc. And you 893 00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,640 Speaker 1: also mentioned like the black market and so forth. What 894 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 1: what is the appropriate course of action that you would 895 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:08,320 Speaker 1: recommend if anyone out there is engaged in construction, renovation, demolition, 896 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,960 Speaker 1: et cetera, if they find something that that could conceivably 897 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,120 Speaker 1: be part of one of these traditions, what should they do? 898 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,399 Speaker 5: The perfect thing to do is, first of all, as 899 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 5: soon as you see something emerge from the ground or 900 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,240 Speaker 5: emerge from a wall, it's just pause and take loads 901 00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,359 Speaker 5: of photographs from every angle, just sort of really really 902 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 5: record it as well as you can maybe do a 903 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 5: bit of video as well, you know, write down when 904 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,120 Speaker 5: you found it, what you found, yeah, before you even 905 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:39,080 Speaker 5: touch it, you know, and then ideally then contact someone 906 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,200 Speaker 5: who is interested in it or as an expert in 907 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 5: that field. Obviously, I would like you to consider me 908 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 5: if you find those things, you know, and I'd like 909 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,680 Speaker 5: to give you some advice or maybe look at some 910 00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 5: photos and have some input about what you found. And 911 00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,279 Speaker 5: then the ideal thing, because obviously I live a long 912 00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 5: way away from many of your listeners, you know, the 913 00:47:57,239 --> 00:48:00,440 Speaker 5: ideal thing is that you find some way of keeping 914 00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:02,560 Speaker 5: it in the house after you've recorded it, as well 915 00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:04,799 Speaker 5: as you can keep it in the house and keep 916 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 5: it where you found it if you can. Some people 917 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 5: find solutions, like they'll put a little window so you 918 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,320 Speaker 5: can still see it and appreciate it, and it's a 919 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,600 Speaker 5: kind of fun talking point in the house. I know 920 00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 5: lots of houses where they've done that with dried cats 921 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 5: as well. Actually, even though they're a bit gruesome to 922 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 5: look at, lots of people still like to keep them. Obviously, 923 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:26,480 Speaker 5: as something like a dried cat, it's organic and it 924 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:29,840 Speaker 5: could rot if it becomes damp, so you've got to 925 00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 5: think more carefully about what you do with that, and 926 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,600 Speaker 5: a lot of people do end up disposing of them 927 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 5: for that reason. 928 00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 4: But you know, if you can. 929 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 5: Keep it dry and keep it visible or just con 930 00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,920 Speaker 5: seal it again, just put it back in and forget 931 00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,280 Speaker 5: all about it. Like the first one, I ever came across, 932 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 5: went straight back in the thatch after I'd recorded it, 933 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,000 Speaker 5: and it's still there as far as I know. So 934 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:51,440 Speaker 5: that is the best thing to do. That's very by 935 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,799 Speaker 5: far the best thing to do wherever you live. That's 936 00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,239 Speaker 5: the best thing to do. The shoes, by and large, 937 00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 5: they're not going to be worth anything, so you know, 938 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:01,279 Speaker 5: record them and put them back. 939 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 4: You're not going to lose any money. 940 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,280 Speaker 5: You're not denying yourself some kind of riches by reconcealing 941 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 5: a shoe or a cat, you know, the ones that 942 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,800 Speaker 5: people assign more monetary value to it as the witch bottles, 943 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:19,040 Speaker 5: because pottery, you know, nice old pottery with clear witchcraft, 944 00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:23,120 Speaker 5: you know connections, is very interesting. But what I would 945 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,040 Speaker 5: say to you is sell it to your local museum. 946 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 5: You know, your local museum will love to own it, 947 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 5: and I'm sure would make you an offer if you 948 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:33,680 Speaker 5: have a history you know, local history museum, and just 949 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,880 Speaker 5: make sure you offer it to local historians or archaeologists 950 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,600 Speaker 5: after you've recorded it, and let them buy it off. 951 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 4: You don't put it. 952 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 5: Don't just put it on the black market, because someone 953 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:45,319 Speaker 5: will buy it and its provenance will be lost and 954 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,279 Speaker 5: no one will know where it is ever forever after. 955 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 5: So that's my only request is just record it as 956 00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,319 Speaker 5: well as you can share that information. And if you're 957 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 5: going to sell anything, sell it responsibly, send it to 958 00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,040 Speaker 5: someone who is going to care about that object and 959 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 5: care about its relevance and it's contexts in your local 960 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:02,880 Speaker 5: historical environment. 961 00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:05,879 Speaker 1: Now, in some cases, I think you mentioned in the book, 962 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: the individuals who find these these objects then kind of 963 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,359 Speaker 1: maybe buy into the supernatural ideas around them, even as 964 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: modern you know, as residents of the modern world. 965 00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,400 Speaker 5: Yeah, in modern parlance, you could say that people kind 966 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:23,839 Speaker 5: of freak out a bit when they find when they 967 00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 5: find these things in their houses. So in England, most 968 00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,840 Speaker 5: of the houses where these objects like this are found 969 00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:37,680 Speaker 5: are usually very historic houses, usually quite desirable, usually quite 970 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:38,560 Speaker 5: expensive houses. 971 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:38,920 Speaker 4: See. 972 00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:41,880 Speaker 5: So in modern times, usually the people that live in 973 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,960 Speaker 5: these houses are quite wealthy or professional, you know, and 974 00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,000 Speaker 5: usually consider themselves to be quite serious professional individuals. So 975 00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,840 Speaker 5: we've got kind of quite a lot of lawyers, you know, academicians, 976 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 5: you know, people like that. And these are people who 977 00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 5: often don't even don't think they're superstitious or have any 978 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,640 Speaker 5: supernatural believes at all, and yet when they find these 979 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:03,319 Speaker 5: objects in their houses. They want to know what they 980 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 5: are first of all, and they'll contact someone like me 981 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:07,480 Speaker 5: and they start to learn more about it, not just 982 00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 5: from me, but from you know, other relicious are online 983 00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:11,000 Speaker 5: or from friends or whatever. 984 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 4: And then they start to. 985 00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,359 Speaker 5: Get really, really, really really worried that they are, that 986 00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:21,200 Speaker 5: they're disturbing some form of protection, and that whatever evil 987 00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,160 Speaker 5: that these things were protecting against might come back into 988 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:28,320 Speaker 5: their houses. And they're often really frightened of, for example, 989 00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 5: a shoe being taken away from the house, or a 990 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,680 Speaker 5: cat being moved, or a bottle being broken or something 991 00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 5: like that. 992 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:34,680 Speaker 4: They feel that. 993 00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,520 Speaker 5: Some dark energy that was being held at bay by 994 00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:44,120 Speaker 5: this thing might suddenly re emerge. Now, obviously, when you 995 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,000 Speaker 5: when you look at the way people used to use 996 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:49,920 Speaker 5: these things, it was usually in the specific response to 997 00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,480 Speaker 5: them feeling bewitched. So the chances of that same cause 998 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:57,320 Speaker 5: of a harmful energy, the same witch still being alive 999 00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:03,200 Speaker 5: and transferring that home energy onto you, it's almost zero. 1000 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,440 Speaker 5: But people for some reason feel that this is going 1001 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,719 Speaker 5: to happen to them, and they get incredibly worried. I 1002 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,040 Speaker 5: remember one house where a witch bottle was found. We 1003 00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,720 Speaker 5: persuaded the guy to let us analyze the witch bottles. 1004 00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,520 Speaker 5: So we were going to take it to university, have 1005 00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:21,839 Speaker 5: it X ray's and have all the contents analyzed. And 1006 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:24,279 Speaker 5: it took a lot of persuading to get him to 1007 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:28,000 Speaker 5: do it, and this was for an English TV program 1008 00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:32,919 Speaker 5: on BBC two called History Detectives. He'd reported the fine 1009 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,680 Speaker 5: because he found it really interesting and as part of 1010 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,799 Speaker 5: the research, you know, myself and my colleague Dot dr 1011 00:52:38,800 --> 00:52:42,279 Speaker 5: All and Massy we often would investigate bottles like this, 1012 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,279 Speaker 5: and the production team and us we had to work 1013 00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,120 Speaker 5: on him for ages, so it allow us to take 1014 00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,160 Speaker 5: it away. The whole time it was away, he was 1015 00:52:50,239 --> 00:52:52,480 Speaker 5: ringing every day as the bottle, Okay, when's it coming back? 1016 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 4: Was it coming back? 1017 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,319 Speaker 5: I need it back in the house. Really really felt 1018 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,719 Speaker 5: desperately worried about it. And when it did come back 1019 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:00,600 Speaker 5: to the house eventually after the analysis, he wanted it 1020 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:02,920 Speaker 5: to be reinterred and he wanted me to do it 1021 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,160 Speaker 5: because I was the first person he reported it too, 1022 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 5: and so I agreed. But when I got there, what 1023 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:09,919 Speaker 5: I didn't know was that he and the production team 1024 00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:13,799 Speaker 5: had employed a group of nuns to pray around me 1025 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 5: while I was lowering it into the hole. So that 1026 00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:20,600 Speaker 5: was a startling ends to that little bit of TV work. 1027 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 5: But yeah, it just shows how strongly this guy felt 1028 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:27,399 Speaker 5: about it. He really wanted the thing to go back 1029 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,440 Speaker 5: where it come from, and he felt that it needed 1030 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,200 Speaker 5: some kind of religious blessing in the process as well 1031 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:34,400 Speaker 5: to make it safe. 1032 00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,920 Speaker 1: It's fascinating. It really makes me think about you know, 1033 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,360 Speaker 1: early on in the book you also you mentioned like 1034 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 1: the different sense world of being in a house in 1035 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,400 Speaker 1: historic times and everything's quieter and I guess maybe you 1036 00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: hear all the sounds or potential sounds a bit more. 1037 00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:53,319 Speaker 1: But then also just thinking about our modern relationship with 1038 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,400 Speaker 1: like the spaces between our walls or the spaces underneath 1039 00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,520 Speaker 1: the floors. There are things we know, we tend to 1040 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:03,839 Speaker 1: know or assume there are not spirits or demons under there, 1041 00:54:03,880 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: but we don't know for sure that there's not a mouse. 1042 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,399 Speaker 1: We know there are wires and pipes under and through 1043 00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:15,560 Speaker 1: our house, and we have at least some level of 1044 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,920 Speaker 1: understanding of how those things work, but then also maybe 1045 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:21,520 Speaker 1: some some some empty spots in our understanding concerning say 1046 00:54:21,560 --> 00:54:22,480 Speaker 1: electrical wiring. 1047 00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:26,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's it's really interesting. I mean I would say 1048 00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,479 Speaker 5: that that people in the past often used to feel 1049 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:34,400 Speaker 5: a bit like our children do now, you know. So 1050 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 5: you know you've got a child going to sleep, that 1051 00:54:37,040 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 5: the fears of something under the bed or something you know, 1052 00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,560 Speaker 5: hiding behind the cupboard or something like that. You know, 1053 00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 5: I think that it's not quite the same. I mean, 1054 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:47,840 Speaker 5: I'm not saying that people had beliefs that were just 1055 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:51,120 Speaker 5: like children. But if you imagine a more mature version 1056 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,040 Speaker 5: of those beliefs, you know that there's there still is 1057 00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,040 Speaker 5: a belief in magic. There still is a belief that 1058 00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,319 Speaker 5: there are some entities and some things around you that 1059 00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,200 Speaker 5: can harm you, but you can't see them, and you 1060 00:55:01,239 --> 00:55:03,200 Speaker 5: haven't got the powers to do anything about them unless 1061 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 5: you learn some of these practices. 1062 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,680 Speaker 4: You know, only witches can. 1063 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,160 Speaker 5: Maybe do something about these things, or white witches, you know, 1064 00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,879 Speaker 5: the village cunning person for example, who's got control over 1065 00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,160 Speaker 5: some supernatural powers, could maybe manipulate some of these things. 1066 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:17,080 Speaker 4: But you can't. 1067 00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:19,400 Speaker 5: But all these things are around you, And so I 1068 00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:22,040 Speaker 5: think that some of those fears that you might remember 1069 00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:27,240 Speaker 5: from being a child basically carry over into adulthood as. 1070 00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,040 Speaker 4: A legitimate belief that everybody shared. 1071 00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,160 Speaker 5: You know, I really do think that even as recently 1072 00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:37,800 Speaker 5: as the early twentieth century, and some rural areas, beliefs 1073 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,239 Speaker 5: like this were absolutely normal, and people had very sophisticated 1074 00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,960 Speaker 5: responses to them, including the practices I've mentioned plus others. 1075 00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: Now, this is not an example that I think has 1076 00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:52,640 Speaker 1: any supernatural aspects to it, but I was wondering, I'm 1077 00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,640 Speaker 1: not sure if this is a feature of homes in 1078 00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,400 Speaker 1: the UK or not, or if this is just a 1079 00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,680 Speaker 1: thing in the States, or if this is found throughout 1080 00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:03,640 Speaker 1: the world. But you look at older medicine cabinets sometimes 1081 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,680 Speaker 1: and there'll be a slot in the back to dispose 1082 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:12,160 Speaker 1: razors down, like shaving razors. And I couldn't help but 1083 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:16,120 Speaker 1: think of that now and again whilst whilst reading the book, 1084 00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,960 Speaker 1: as being you know, a place where we put things 1085 00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:23,240 Speaker 1: that maybe have some sort of connection to our physical body. 1086 00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: And they also reminded me of the bent nails a bit, 1087 00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,960 Speaker 1: the bent pins, as being these you know, these these 1088 00:56:29,960 --> 00:56:32,560 Speaker 1: bits of iron or metal that are that are no 1089 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:33,360 Speaker 1: longer useful. 1090 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, I've seen I've seen some lots of examples to those. 1091 00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:38,480 Speaker 5: I can't remember the name of the Facebook group, but 1092 00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,960 Speaker 5: there's a group about things found hidden in walls and 1093 00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,680 Speaker 5: everything yeah, And a lot of the examples from the 1094 00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,120 Speaker 5: States are where people have bought a really old house 1095 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,200 Speaker 5: and it's been like a medicine cabinet, and they've found 1096 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 5: this great, big, massive razor blades all behind the plaster board, 1097 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,080 Speaker 5: you know, that will be pushed through this slot, have 1098 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,120 Speaker 5: just been allowed to just sit there and rust away 1099 00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,440 Speaker 5: behind the behind the wall. And yeah, it's very similar, 1100 00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:02,719 Speaker 5: isn't it. You know, you can see why it's a 1101 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,960 Speaker 5: similar idea, isn't it. You've got this thing, like you say, 1102 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:07,920 Speaker 5: closely associated with the body. It's then been disposed of 1103 00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:09,800 Speaker 5: behind the wall. It's very sharp, you know, it's this 1104 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:12,239 Speaker 5: sharp thing where supernatural you know, it's not going to 1105 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:13,879 Speaker 5: look there anymore, is it? Because you've got all these 1106 00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,640 Speaker 5: dead sharp things. And it's very reminiscent of the belief 1107 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:20,280 Speaker 5: in knife blades and things that used to be found 1108 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:25,320 Speaker 5: underneath windows, cells and sometimes under door intels where there's 1109 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 5: there's a you know, we've talked a lot about this 1110 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,080 Speaker 5: idea that things can be sort of killed in order 1111 00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 5: to be activated on the supernatural plane, and that would 1112 00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:34,880 Speaker 5: the same wind apply to well, you're kitchen utensils. 1113 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,000 Speaker 4: You know, if you've got a broken knife. 1114 00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,160 Speaker 5: It now is activated if you're like and it is 1115 00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:43,680 Speaker 5: now a useful form of supernatural defense if you were 1116 00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,800 Speaker 5: to secrete it beneath a window sill or pop it 1117 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 5: above a door intel, And so it's very similar. 1118 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:52,320 Speaker 4: There's kind of there's definitely a resonance there isn't that. 1119 00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:58,560 Speaker 1: Finally, as both a witchcraft archaeologist and a musician, do 1120 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,680 Speaker 1: you think there's a shortage of which mentions in songs 1121 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,400 Speaker 1: about witchcraft and wizardry or there are there some great 1122 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 1: examples out there that I just don't know about. 1123 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,200 Speaker 4: Are you also a musician? Are you going to rectify 1124 00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:10,040 Speaker 4: this situation? 1125 00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: I have no ability to directify it if there is 1126 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:15,520 Speaker 1: a lacking. 1127 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:18,920 Speaker 5: I don't think, though I don't know of any. I'm 1128 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 5: sure that there are some little folk poems that reference 1129 00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,480 Speaker 5: the idea of protecting against witchcraft. But I'm not aware 1130 00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,640 Speaker 5: of a good song, especially a rock song, which is 1131 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 5: my world, about witch bustles. But I do know there 1132 00:58:33,080 --> 00:58:36,080 Speaker 5: is a metal band called Ghost or Ghost but with 1133 00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,240 Speaker 5: a cane the front instead of a G and I 1134 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:42,920 Speaker 5: know that they've started writing some crazy songs about counter witchcraft. 1135 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:44,760 Speaker 5: So there may be a witch bustle song coming from 1136 00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:45,240 Speaker 5: them soon. 1137 00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:50,320 Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, but before we close out here, I imagine 1138 00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,600 Speaker 1: that we have perked a number of listeners curiosities about 1139 00:58:53,600 --> 00:58:57,080 Speaker 1: this whole topic. Can you tell our listeners how they 1140 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,640 Speaker 1: can follow you the website or social mediaccounts they can 1141 00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:04,240 Speaker 1: go to to learn more about the study. 1142 00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:10,040 Speaker 5: Sure, so on Twitter and Instagram, I'm there as folk 1143 00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:15,400 Speaker 5: magic Man as one word. But on Facebook and on 1144 00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:18,440 Speaker 5: my website it's a little bit more difficult to convey 1145 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:23,000 Speaker 5: without seeing it. But the domain is aperture pios, which 1146 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:25,120 Speaker 5: is you can probably share a link, can't you in 1147 00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,880 Speaker 5: your podcast? But yeah, that's probably the best way to 1148 00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,480 Speaker 5: do it. But it's appaios, dot co, dot uk or 1149 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,600 Speaker 5: or dot com and the same thing on Facebook it 1150 00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:37,720 Speaker 5: would be forward slash as But yeah, that's where it 1151 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:38,120 Speaker 5: all is. 1152 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,000 Speaker 1: Excellent. Well, thanks for taking time out of your day 1153 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:44,120 Speaker 1: to chat with me here. This has been I've enjoyed 1154 00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:46,600 Speaker 1: it tremendously and I am sure that our listeners are 1155 00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:47,960 Speaker 1: going to enjoy it as well. 1156 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:49,320 Speaker 4: I've enjoyed it very much too. 1157 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,480 Speaker 1: Thanks again to Brian for coming on the show to 1158 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,240 Speaker 1: chat again. The book is Magical House Protection, The Archaeology 1159 00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 1: of counter Witchcraft and It's available in physical and digital 1160 01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: forms wherever you get your books. We only had time 1161 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,080 Speaker 1: to discuss really a fraction of what is explored in 1162 01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,960 Speaker 1: the book, so if this topic fascinates you as it 1163 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,800 Speaker 1: does me, pick it up. Thanks as always to Seth 1164 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,439 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson for producing the show, and if you want 1165 01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:17,520 Speaker 1: to reach out, simply email us at contact at stuff 1166 01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:25,880 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. 1167 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,040 Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 1168 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,919 Speaker 3: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1169 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:48,920 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.