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Speaker 1: You're listening to Modern Rules, a production of MSNBC and

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. I really hope that we correct what

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Speaker 1: is this aberration of income inequality that results in what

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Speaker 1: I'll called dangerous leadership. Had the white woman that tape

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Speaker 1: that not exposed it, we would have never actually even

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Speaker 1: had the story where Howard Schulton had to go on

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Speaker 1: air and talk about it. He was forced to do

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Speaker 1: the right thing. I can tell you, if gone exists,

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Speaker 1: I've said some very mean things, damn over the years.

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Speaker 1: I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor and NBC News correspondent, and

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Speaker 1: this is Modern Rules. In this season of Modern Rules,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be spending time unpacking the harriest conversations

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Speaker 1: from privilege to political correctness, to try and figure out

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Speaker 1: how we can navigate this changing world and break through

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Speaker 1: to actually talk with and learn from the people who

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Speaker 1: disagree with us, and maybe just maybe learn something along

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Speaker 1: the way. Today's episode Faith and Moral Leadership with guest

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Speaker 1: Scott Galloway, Rashad Robinson and Shawandaharty. It's almost impossible to

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Speaker 1: talk about moral leadership in America without talking about business century.

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Speaker 1: Capitalism in America shapes so much of our conversation about

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Speaker 1: the moral standards we hold different kinds of people to,

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Speaker 1: whether they are CEOs or celebrities. At the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, the rules of capitalism thus far, if you

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Speaker 1: make the most amount of money for the company, for

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Speaker 1: your shareholders, all that other stuff gets forgiven. Question today

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Speaker 1: is is it time to change that? Scott Galloway is

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Speaker 1: an academic and entrepreneur and an all around thoughtful human being.

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Speaker 1: For all the excesses and absences of moral leadership we

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Speaker 1: have seen, he sees what he calls a soft revolution

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Speaker 1: on the horizon, at least in some areas, which is

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Speaker 1: a sign of hope. Scott. When this country was founded,

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Speaker 1: everybody walked into a room with different plans and they

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Speaker 1: walked out and said, Okay, we're gonna go at this together.

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Speaker 1: But they were all white guys, and they were all landowners.

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Speaker 1: The wonderful thing about capitalism is there's assumption. It assumes

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Speaker 1: that a basic human attribute of our species is that

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Speaker 1: we're going to fix our own oxygen masks before helping others.

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Speaker 1: Self interest is the most powerful motivating force in the world,

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Speaker 1: and it's the basis of capitalism. At the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, people the baker doesn't give the butcher bread

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Speaker 1: for that person's well being, but because they want meat

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Speaker 1: in return. It's a powerful engine. But also a key

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Speaker 1: to capitalism is this notion of democracy and the rule

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Speaker 1: of fair play. The game might be tilted, but at

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Speaker 1: least it's not rigged. And I would argue over the

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Speaker 1: last thirty years that the middle class has figured out,

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Speaker 1: slowly but surely. Corporations have become government, the tax systems

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Speaker 1: become rigged. We have this hunger game's economy, and part

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Speaker 1: of is our fault, where we have this gross idolatry

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Speaker 1: of billionaires, where once you become a billionaire, you become

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Speaker 1: a celebrity, and your taxes should go down. You should

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Speaker 1: no longer be subject to the same scrutiny as everybody else.

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Speaker 1: You should pay, you should be famous, You should be

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Speaker 1: loved if you're sixty billion or fifty billion. To go

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Speaker 1: into the category I would describe as Jesus Christ, where

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Speaker 1: everything you say is examined and prophetic. You can be

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Speaker 1: a deadbeat dad, but because you started Apple, you're considered

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Speaker 1: the Jesus Christ of our information age. You can be

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Speaker 1: a broken sociopath who's a college chop out whose first

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Speaker 1: website evaluated women on their physical appearance, screwed over your

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Speaker 1: best friends in college and then royally fucked over your

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Speaker 1: best friends soon after college, and yet this person is

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Speaker 1: considered again, this iconic hero. So this gross idolatry of

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Speaker 1: youth and billionaires and technology, a sense a lack of

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Speaker 1: control around regulating complexity has resulted in people who are

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Speaker 1: quite frankly self interested. Everybody, at the end of the

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Speaker 1: day is going to act in their self interest. But

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Speaker 1: we're supposed to have a group of thoughtful people to say,

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Speaker 1: you know what, once you hit a million dollars a year,

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Speaker 1: your taxes shouldn't go down. Okay, but Scott, here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: What you are asking for is moral leadership. But are

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Speaker 1: we being naive it never existed? Let's say hard But listen,

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Speaker 1: there's a difference between a CEO who's got two employees,

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Speaker 1: like Jamie Diamond who's got to run JP Morgan every day,

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Speaker 1: and Ray Dalio who runs a business with dozens of employees.

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Speaker 1: But who's the person today that we can look to

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Speaker 1: and say, well, you can be a business leader and

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Speaker 1: a government leader and a moral leader. So I do

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Speaker 1: think there are examples, but at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: their job is their jobs one and two and three

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Speaker 1: is for shareholder return. That's there for profit. Entities and

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Speaker 1: our economy are there to make profits. What we fail

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Speaker 1: to do is regulate them and say, okay, Google, you've

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Speaker 1: paid more fines than you paid in taxes in Europe,

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Speaker 1: so we need to look at a top line tax.

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Speaker 1: Howard Schultz called for more equity and the tax structure.

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Speaker 1: I would argue it's not only principle stand but it's

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Speaker 1: self preservation because traditionally throughout history, it's very clear when

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Speaker 1: we get to the current levels of income inequality that

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Speaker 1: we have. The good news is they owe its self correct.

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Speaker 1: Income inequality self correct. That's the bad news. The mechanisms

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Speaker 1: of self correction are either war, famine, or revolution, and

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Speaker 1: that is people get so fed up they turned to

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Speaker 1: nationalism and they start demonizing immigrants, or they turned to

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Speaker 1: some sort of government overthrow through socialism. We end up

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Speaker 1: with jove as so billionaires calling for more regulation and

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Speaker 1: higher taxes. Quite frankly, I do think it's principled, but

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Speaker 1: I also think it's self preservation. At some point, when

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Speaker 1: you look out your window and you see everyone with pitchforks,

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Speaker 1: you realize, well, maybe it's time, you know, maybe it

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Speaker 1: should be more than let them e kick. I think

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Speaker 1: we're at that point. The last time we have these

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Speaker 1: levels of income inequality was in the twenties, right before

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Speaker 1: the crash. Then explain this. If income inequality is reaching

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Speaker 1: crisis levels, that could incent a revolution. But I think

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Speaker 1: we're undergoing what I would call a sort of a

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Speaker 1: soft revolution. And then there's evidence of it everywhere. People

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Speaker 1: frustrated that their wages haven't gone up, so they're very

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Speaker 1: open or right to demonizing immigrants. It's their fault. They

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Speaker 1: took my job. They want extreme reaction. But where I

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Speaker 1: was headed with this is I do think we're in

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Speaker 1: the midst of a soft revolution, and that is people

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Speaker 1: are so fed up. An economy in a society can't

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Speaker 1: survive without a prospering middle class, and the middle class

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Speaker 1: in America has either been sideways most general to sleep

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Speaker 1: for the last thirty years, probably going down. And we're

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Speaker 1: in the midst of a soft revolution and a manifest

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Speaker 1: itself in different ways. There's calls for sevent taxes and

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Speaker 1: the elimination of air transport and a billionaire super tax. Look,

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Speaker 1: we all make bad decisions sometimes, and sometimes we make

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Speaker 1: those decisions because we think it's protecting the people we

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Speaker 1: love the most, And in those cases, it's harder to

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Speaker 1: characterize what's actually doing the right thing and what's doing

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Speaker 1: the wrong thing. I'll give you an example. If someone

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Speaker 1: accused me of having an affair outside of a relationship

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Speaker 1: and I didn't, anybody was going to find out. I

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Speaker 1: would lie. I would go on TV and lie. I

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Speaker 1: would try and protect my relationship in my family. I

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Speaker 1: would lie. I don't. I'm not sure I would own it.

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Speaker 1: I would rather preserve my family. I would hands down,

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Speaker 1: I would lie. But this notion of yeah, what Jeff

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Speaker 1: Bezos did owning it, I think that is really impressive

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Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people would decide, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to try and figure out a

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Speaker 1: way to worm out of it. So if the line

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Speaker 1: makes our life easier, right, it is day we protect

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Speaker 1: people's feelings, everybody smooths the edges. But in terms of

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Speaker 1: we lie, one of the reasons we lie, or we're

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Speaker 1: so desperate to protect our reputations is about how we

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Speaker 1: define what morality is. The other thing, going back to

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Speaker 1: this notion, I think we have to have more reverence

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Speaker 1: for privacy. I don't think. I think if you're running

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Speaker 1: for president, okay, maybe your personal life should be on

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Speaker 1: full display. Maybe not. It never used to be. It

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Speaker 1: didn't until Gary Hart. Pre Gary Hart, these were considered

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Speaker 1: private matters. Affairs and presidents were considered private matters. I

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Speaker 1: still believe that your private life, for the majority of people,

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Speaker 1: even they're famous, it's really nobody's business. I would like

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Speaker 1: to see a union of famous people all hold hands

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Speaker 1: and say, you know what, none of your fucking business.

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Speaker 1: What happens if you don't like the way I behave

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Speaker 1: on television, if you don't like the way I play sports, fine,

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Speaker 1: but my personal life, you know, basketball players and football

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Speaker 1: players happen to apologize for certain things or with political views.

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Speaker 1: My viewpoint is, why why are we in this industry?

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Speaker 1: It feels like all of them should just say, I

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Speaker 1: have no comment, it's none of your business. So look,

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Speaker 1: I am an optimist. As I say, I hate my

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Speaker 1: life less and less every day. I do think that

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Speaker 1: hopefully some immunities are kicking in, and I really hope

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Speaker 1: that we correct what is this aberration of income inequality

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Speaker 1: that results in what all called dangerous leadership. So I

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Speaker 1: am ultimately over the long term optimistic, but that optimism

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Speaker 1: can't translate to a certain amount of passive complacency. We absolutely,

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Speaker 1: in my view, have to ensure that we restore moral leadership.

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Speaker 1: I think we need to encourage people on both sides

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Speaker 1: to stop attacking. We need to separate people from ideology.

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Speaker 1: I go on Fox once a week just because I

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Speaker 1: want to know those people, and I like them, and

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Speaker 1: I think they're nice, and I want to understand them,

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Speaker 1: and I want to create a dialogue, want to play

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Speaker 1: my part in that, And I think we have to

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Speaker 1: also address these dangerous underlying technologies. They try and figure

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Speaker 1: out a way to put each of us in a

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Speaker 1: corner and start hating each other. I think it's really divisive.

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Speaker 1: We've created business models and a for profit incentive. Just

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Speaker 1: as we created for profit incentive in prisons, it took

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Speaker 1: us in bad place. We've created a for profit incentive

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Speaker 1: with our media that encourages you to pick a side

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Speaker 1: and then figures out a way for you to start

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Speaker 1: hating each other. I think it's really dangerous. I know

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Speaker 1: it's important to clean up bad behavior, but is the

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Speaker 1: answer to love a little more. That's a good place

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Speaker 1: to end it. We're going to be right back after

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Speaker 1: a quick break, welcome back to modern rules. When we're

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Speaker 1: talking about moral leadership, I think we need to take

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Speaker 1: a step back. It is worth real rising that we

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Speaker 1: as individuals can be the ones leading the way. Finally,

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Speaker 1: everyday people have a platform that can push c e

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Speaker 1: O s to realize that doing the right thing is

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Speaker 1: a smart business move. I bust on social media all

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Speaker 1: the time, but you can actually make the case that

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Speaker 1: social media has had a profound effect on weakening our institutions,

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Speaker 1: whether that's government or business, by finally creating this unfiltered,

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Speaker 1: totally open platform for public opinion of every single kind.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, there's something powerful about the

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Speaker 1: way these institutions are now being held publicly accountable. As

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Speaker 1: my next guest says, change is hard. Rashad Robinson runs

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Speaker 1: the organization Color of Change. They employ all sorts of

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Speaker 1: online resources and social media to specifically advocate for issues

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Speaker 1: that affect African Americans and strengthen their political voice. Rashad

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Speaker 1: has seen how having positive examples in the form of

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Speaker 1: influential people and images and pop culture changes the way

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Speaker 1: we see one another. People want to be sensitive, they

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Speaker 1: want to care about others. There are instances where they

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Speaker 1: don't realize it. How big of a deal was it

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Speaker 1: when the bathroom incident happened with Starbucks in Philadelphia? Howard

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Speaker 1: Schultz went on television with GAYL King when she asked him,

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Speaker 1: was this racial profiling? He said, yes, it was. But

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Speaker 1: the fact that Starbucks was willing to acknowledge, yes, this

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Speaker 1: was racial profiling, how big of a deal was that?

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think it was incredibly important. I talked

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Speaker 1: to Howard a couple of times during the process. We

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Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in Philadelphia electing a new

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Speaker 1: district attorney there through our political action committee. And part

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Speaker 1: of the reason why those guys were never charged with

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Speaker 1: a crime was because it was a district attorney there.

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Speaker 1: There was a cannibal to black communities who had stopped

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Speaker 1: charging for those type of things, So why they were arrested,

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Speaker 1: They were never charged. So the whole set of sort

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Speaker 1: of structural things at play. And you know, I do

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Speaker 1: think it's important that they acknowledged that there was a

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Speaker 1: problem there. I do think it's important that businesses sort

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Speaker 1: of recognize and then I think what's next is what

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Speaker 1: do they then do about it? How do they then

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Speaker 1: change the sort of rules of the road. There was

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Speaker 1: a lot of attention placed on Starbucks and then almost

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Speaker 1: less attention placed on the role of the police. The

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter is is the police chief came

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Speaker 1: out right after that and said it was, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: to investigate, you know. And I'm like, well, how does

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Speaker 1: that work? Like why would you investigate if you say

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Speaker 1: they did nothing wrong? Like why not just say we're

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Speaker 1: going to investigate. The other thing that I think is important,

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Speaker 1: back to your point about activism, is that it was

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Speaker 1: white people who took out their phones and taped that.

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Speaker 1: They tape that because there's a new mental model that

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Speaker 1: has been built by primarily young black, young people of

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Speaker 1: color activists and comedians around the country who have exposed

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Speaker 1: policing and it's been national stories that media has covered.

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Speaker 1: And as a result, people were watching that and they

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Speaker 1: had the thing that's been happening in their head to

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Speaker 1: take out their phones and tape it. And had the

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Speaker 1: white woman that that tape that not not done that

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Speaker 1: and not exposed it, we would have never actually even

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Speaker 1: had the story where Howard Chilton had to go on

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Speaker 1: air and talk about it, and you know, that was

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Speaker 1: the last thing any ceo, and this is mat about

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Speaker 1: Howard any ceo has to do. He had to do

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Speaker 1: it because there was a new set of power, a

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Speaker 1: new set of engagement that happened. He was forced to

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Speaker 1: do the right thing. Change is hard. Nothing changes easy

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Speaker 1: in this country, and so the kind of pushed to

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Speaker 1: actually make things change and make things different, it is

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Speaker 1: always going to be met with resistance. This is though,

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Speaker 1: why representation is so important, and why representation up against

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Speaker 1: those currents are so important. The introduction of black characters

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Speaker 1: on TV was met with opposition. The introduction of certain

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Speaker 1: type of female representations was met with pushback and real opposition. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: I dealt with the pushback against gay and lesbian representations

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Speaker 1: when I was, you know, engaged in that work deeply,

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Speaker 1: and the emails and the phone calls we would we

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Speaker 1: would see out there in the protest. You know, it

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Speaker 1: seems like a long time ago, but you know, there

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Speaker 1: was a whole lot of pushback when Glee went on

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Speaker 1: the air and the representation of a gay high school kid,

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Speaker 1: and there was a lot of conversation around that. So

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Speaker 1: all of that is going to have push. But but

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Speaker 1: part of that push is necessary because we've got to

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Speaker 1: expose it. If we don't actually have the conversations that

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Speaker 1: people are having in in a kind of free society,

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Speaker 1: we don't elevate those voices to challenge them and pushed back,

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Speaker 1: then we pretend that things are in a place that

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Speaker 1: they actually are not in. Then how beneficial and how

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Speaker 1: important has it been when you see star athletes come

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Speaker 1: out and talk about mental illness or anxiety and depression,

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Speaker 1: which flies directly in the face of those ultramacho personas.

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Speaker 1: How big of a positive impact does that? I think

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Speaker 1: it's incredible. I think I think I remember when Magic

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Speaker 1: Johnson came out as HIV positive and what that did

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Speaker 1: for the conversation around a disease that people were afraid

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Speaker 1: to talk about and the characters that they believed it

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Speaker 1: only inflicted exactly it wasn't Magic JOHNSONID Yes, so over

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Speaker 1: and over again, the you know the power of influencers

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Speaker 1: and celebrities, I oftentimes think about celebrities as like, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: what does it mean to have narrative infrastructure to reach

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Speaker 1: more people? Right? And also to reach kind of the

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Speaker 1: subcultures of people, right, Like, not everyone watches the same

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Speaker 1: TV program or the same news program anymore the same

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Speaker 1: TV show, and so how do we think about the

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Speaker 1: range of voices that can sort of help us reach

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Speaker 1: more people in new ways encourage people. We took Michael B.

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Speaker 1: Jordan's door knocking in Georgia for the election Leaning up

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Speaker 1: the Georgia, and we surprised people at their doors and

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Speaker 1: the sort of reaction obviously you can imagine that's the

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Speaker 1: reaction that I hear from a lot of So, like,

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Speaker 1: there were people mostly mad as we were leaving Georgia,

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Speaker 1: like how dare you not bring him to my house? Um?

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Speaker 1: But he went to people's doors, and I was ready

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Speaker 1: to change. I know, people were like moving to Atlanta.

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Speaker 1: I mean, can you like your doorbell rings? And Oprah

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Speaker 1: or Michael V I was I was like standing there

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Speaker 1: with Mike when he was like doing it. I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is crazy. But all that that to say, like

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Speaker 1: that ability to reach people in that way and connect

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Speaker 1: with people on the importance of their civic engagement and right,

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Speaker 1: that works with some people and not with others. But

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Speaker 1: celebrities using their voices and in authentic ways. I think

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Speaker 1: continues to have power, and I think that what we

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Speaker 1: have to open up space for it across the board

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Speaker 1: is conversations that we have previously been unwilling to have.

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Speaker 1: And if celebrities and visible people can come out and

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Speaker 1: say the things that need to be said or the

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Speaker 1: kind of everyday people are then compelled to talk about

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Speaker 1: it in their homes and in there. But don't we

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Speaker 1: have to find a way to have these conversations without

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Speaker 1: the fear of shame, of being called ignorant or stupid

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Speaker 1: or close minded, or because I worry that it causes.

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Speaker 1: I look at the way sometimes I speak to my

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Speaker 1: own parents and if they voice a viewpoint that maybe

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Speaker 1: they've seen on conservative media, I feel myself shut them

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Speaker 1: down and make them feel terrible, and then they stopped talking,

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Speaker 1: and we're not have than constructive conversations, and it's only

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Speaker 1: driving us deeper into tribalism. I think it's tricky. I

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Speaker 1: think that people seeing change being modeled for them is important.

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Speaker 1: And I think if someone is only watching conservative media,

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Speaker 1: or watching a lot of conservative media, them seeing forceful,

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Speaker 1: strong opinions on the other side is actually important. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes people may shut down in the moment, but have

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Speaker 1: time to think about things later. I think about all

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Speaker 1: the changes we have made on so many issues over times,

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Speaker 1: and the deep arguments that have happened in families around

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Speaker 1: everything from women's equality to interracial friendships and relationships, to

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Speaker 1: LGBT equality, all of those things. I think those conversations

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Speaker 1: have sometimes been tense and sometimes been challenging. I've watched

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Speaker 1: the views on you know, candidates in marijuana and drug

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Speaker 1: use change, you know in my life that I'm forty

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Speaker 1: so I said, so like you have watched, you know,

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Speaker 1: in front of my eyes, these like ways in which

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Speaker 1: people have been like, oh, whatever, no big deal. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure what people are going to think about

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Speaker 1: extramarital relationships after this current president and you know, leaves office,

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Speaker 1: and how people sort of will view those things. I

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Speaker 1: also think that people appreciate authenticity. People appreciate folks you

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Speaker 1: own it, and I don't think I think that some

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Speaker 1: of the things that we have seen from that have

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Speaker 1: gotten politicians into problems is it doesn't feel real that

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Speaker 1: they've waited until it got deeply exposed. They gave us

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Speaker 1: half answers that didn't feel real. I have no interest

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Speaker 1: in ever running for office, because I have lived a

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Speaker 1: life where one should not run for office. But but

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Speaker 1: I was joking, But I was joking with friends about

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Speaker 1: it the other night, like we should just do a

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Speaker 1: dump of all your stuff and then like see what happens.

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Speaker 1: And they're like, maybe it'd be good if my friends

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Speaker 1: are listening. But that's not a request. Just hold on

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Speaker 1: a second, because we have so much more to get into.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back right after a quick break. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to modern rules. Of course, economic and political institutions are

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Speaker 1: only part of the equation. Religious institutions are a seminal

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Speaker 1: part of many American lives. My guest, my friend, Shaun Darty,

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Speaker 1: is a survivor of childhood sexual abuse by a clergyman.

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Speaker 1: He has wrestled with his beliefs, with the whole idea

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Speaker 1: of faith in the wake of that abuse. I feel

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Speaker 1: you are a soulful person. I feel you're an optimistic

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Speaker 1: person in spite of all of this. So I want

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Speaker 1: to understand where it comes from. At a time when

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Speaker 1: so many people just see red, I have many people

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Speaker 1: of faith tell me that I am faithful. I've had

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Speaker 1: the Bishop of Altoona Johnstown tell me that I believe

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Speaker 1: in God. I'm just on leave right now? Can I

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Speaker 1: say that I pray? Yeah? Do I say they are father?

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Speaker 1: And how Mary? No, I couldn't recite one right now.

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Speaker 1: You would have to lead it. And if you let it,

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Speaker 1: I could probably jump in. But I couldn't do it

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Speaker 1: on my own right now. But they usually in rage.

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Speaker 1: And I can tell you if God exists, I've said

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Speaker 1: some very mean things to him over the years. How

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Speaker 1: do you manage the rage? I scream? Throughout the years?

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Speaker 1: I managed in different ways. I self medicated for a

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Speaker 1: long time. Anything that would make me take me somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: make me, you know, conveniently being in the bar and

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Speaker 1: restaurant business my whole life, especially nightclubs and things. You know.

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Speaker 1: Cocaine isn't magical tool you feel you fork, you know,

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Speaker 1: and all of the ALCOHOLI everything. You know, it's magnificent

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Speaker 1: until you get addicted cocaine and now you have two problems.

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Speaker 1: But they don't help you forgive, they help you run.

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Speaker 1: That was it. I was a pro at running until

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Speaker 1: I married two thousand four. I was pro running. If

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Speaker 1: if I wasn't married right now, I'd probably be behind

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Speaker 1: the wheel of a eighteen wheel or truck or and

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Speaker 1: on some cargo ship to see running like, forget it,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna just go for a while. Are you at peace? No,

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Speaker 1: not even close. Are you angry? Yeah, I'm I'm incredibly angry.

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Speaker 1: This has gone on long enough. What would make you

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Speaker 1: not angry? If the federal government and the state individual

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Speaker 1: state governments brought this issue up immediately, and we have

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Speaker 1: separation of church and state, regardless of how much money

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Speaker 1: that contributes to your campaign, We're supposed to be separated.

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Speaker 1: We have official state investigations from across the board in

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Speaker 1: Pennsylvania that every single diocese in Pennsylvania is doing this,

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Speaker 1: and now forty six other state attorney generals are are

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Speaker 1: inquiring at least say it that they are going to

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Speaker 1: look into this. So but going to look into this.

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Speaker 1: If we were talking about dozens and dozens of men,

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Speaker 1: of teachers, of welders over the last fifty years that

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Speaker 1: were abusing boys, they'd all be in jail. Are you

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Speaker 1: kidding me? If this was a bike gang, if this

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Speaker 1: was the Hell's Angels, are you kidding me? Absolutely? But

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Speaker 1: I alluded to it before campaign. The power connection wealth,

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Speaker 1: these reports said that these people meant, why am I

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Speaker 1: not upset at my parents now in the community now?

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Speaker 1: Because they were groomed just like me. They were groomed

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Speaker 1: before me. You have to groom them first in order

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Speaker 1: to get them to hand you their children. Well, they're

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Speaker 1: the people you're supposed to trust and look up to

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Speaker 1: in your community, and we're finding out that you can't

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Speaker 1: do that to everybody. So there have to be safeguards

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Speaker 1: in place, and that is the role of our government

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Speaker 1: to protect, to protect and serve these citizens in their communities.

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Speaker 1: So here's what I've heard about faith and moral leadership.

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Speaker 1: We're part of a culture that rewards self interest. So

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Speaker 1: we need to examine the roles we play and where

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Speaker 1: we want to get to and start changing our behavior accordingly.

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Speaker 1: If we want a different outcome, we need to tell

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Speaker 1: a different story all along the way. Do I do

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Speaker 1: things that make me the support character in my family narrative?

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Speaker 1: Because if I am, why on earth what I expect

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Speaker 1: my daughter to want to be anything except the princess

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Speaker 1: or dare I say the damsel in distress? The fact

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Speaker 1: that we the definition for what a leader looks like,

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Speaker 1: that's what we need to change and not just for

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Speaker 1: people who are currently in the workforce. We need to

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Speaker 1: change it for our kids. This has been our conversation

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Speaker 1: on faith and moral leadership. Thanks for listening, bringing an

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Speaker 1: open mind, and helping me create the Modern Rules. I

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Speaker 1: want more of this conversation. Go deeper and read this

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Speaker 1: week's Modern Rules feature only on NBC news dot Com

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Speaker 1: Slash Better Ye. That's it for today's episode. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Stephanie Rule. A very very special thanks to the extraordinary

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Speaker 1: people who made this happen. My producers Julie Brown, Samantha

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Speaker 1: Ullen and Anne Bark, Audio, Michael Biett for booking and wrangling,

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Speaker 1: the amazing guests who joined us, Julian Weller for editing

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Speaker 1: and bill plaques, Michael Azar and Jacobo Penzo for their

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Speaker 1: recording expertise. Special thanks to Steve lick Tige, Barbara Rab,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Wald, Marie Dugo, Holly traz, Nikki Etre and Christina

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Speaker 1: Everett are Executive producers are Conald Byrne and Mangesh Hatiga

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Speaker 1: Door And of course, the men who brought us all together.

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Speaker 1: Chairman and CEO of I Heart Media, Bob Pittman and

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Speaker 1: Chairman of NBC News Andy Lack. For more podcasts from

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Speaker 1: My heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple podcast

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Speaker 1: or wherever