1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 2: He terrified and confounded the FBI's top criminal profilers, and 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 2: this case went on to be such a bombshell that 5 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 2: the FBI has concealed a good portion of it and 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: is also continually asking the public's help in locating and 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 2: identifying other victims. 8 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold War wicked On Exactly Right. I've 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 12 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 13 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 14 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: never been published. Wicked Word is about the choices that 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 18 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. 19 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 3: My name is Maureen Callahan. 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: I am a critic at Large at The New York Post, 21 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 2: an investigative journalist and author. The disappearance of this young 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: girl from a roadside coffee stand in Anchorage, Alaska was 23 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 2: so terrifying to Alaskans themselves, but the local police and 24 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 2: the FBI really didn't know what to make of it. 25 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 2: It seemed on its face like this young girl had 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 2: taken off. And I wanted the reader to follow the 27 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 2: investigation and to come upon this dawning horror and realization 28 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: that there was a serial killer on the loose with 29 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: an emo that was completely unprecedented. 30 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: So why don't we start with that day. 31 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 2: It is a very cold, very dark night in Alaska. 32 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 2: It's February twenty twelve. The sun goes down at like 33 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,679 Speaker 2: three point thirty four o'clock. A young woman by the 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,919 Speaker 2: name of Samantha Koenik has just turned eighteen years old, 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:19,760 Speaker 2: and she is working at a roadside kiosk in Anchorage, Alaska. Now, 36 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: these are coffee kiosks that abut many roads. It's part 37 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,399 Speaker 2: of the culture and Anchorage, and it's such a part 38 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: of the culture that it never occurred to anyone that 39 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,839 Speaker 2: it would be dangerous for a young girl to be 40 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,399 Speaker 2: working these kiosks alone at night. 41 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 3: Right as she's closing up to. 42 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 2: The window, comes a hooded figure who sticks a large 43 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 2: thermocet through the window, and you can see her begin 44 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,399 Speaker 2: to make his coffee. And this is what law enforcement 45 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 2: would later see on surveillance video taken from inside the kiosk. 46 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 2: Samantha is going about her business, and then you see 47 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: the muzzle of a gun and it's pointed through the 48 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: window which has no screen, and you see her back 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 2: up and throw her arms. 50 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 3: In the air and move away. 51 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: And then you see this figure put his hands around 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,239 Speaker 2: either side of the window and he leaps inside like 53 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 2: a panther, and then he gets her on her knees 54 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 2: and he takes her out and he just walks her away. Now, 55 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: when the local police department first gets its look at 56 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 2: this video, Samantha has already been gone about twelve to 57 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:22,800 Speaker 2: fifteen hours. 58 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: How long was her shift? Didn't she have somebody relieve her? 59 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 3: She was closing out. 60 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 2: She was actually waiting for her boyfriend who was due 61 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: to come pick her up. The person who abducted Samantha, 62 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 2: who we now know is Israel Keys, later told the 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: FBI he expected, based on just staking out the kiosk, 64 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 2: that whoever was in the kiosk did not have a 65 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: vehicle of their own, because there wasn't one parked close enough, 66 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: and he knew someone was going to come pick her up, 67 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: and his plan initially was to take the both of them. 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 2: Now that alone is a very bold admission. This man 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 2: was going to a two people. He suspected that she 70 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 2: had a boyfriend coming right, so a young, strong guy. 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 2: This was part of the excitement for him, and unfortunately 72 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 2: for Samantha, her boyfriend was just running ten minutes late. 73 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: He missed her by ten minutes. He knew something was 74 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 2: wrong immediately. Samantha's father knew something was wrong immediately. But 75 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 2: because of Samantha's station in life, she had a history 76 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: with drugs, She came from a broken home. Her dad 77 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 2: was reported to be a Hell's angel. The police did 78 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 2: not prioritize this the way they would have prioritized say, 79 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: a wealthy, young white blonde. 80 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 3: Girl going missing. 81 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: So they assumed she took the money out of the 82 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 2: register and ran off to party for a few days, 83 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 2: and she would just come home. And it wasn't just 84 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 2: her dad, and it wasn't just her boyfriend who were 85 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 2: highly alarmed. It was the entire city of Anchorage. They 86 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 2: knew something was very, very wrong. Samantha's face was plastered everywhere. 87 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 3: There was an. 88 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 2: Agent at the FBI by the name of Steve Paine 89 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,479 Speaker 2: who would go on to become the lead agent in 90 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 2: this case. He initially offered help, which the police department declined. 91 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 1: What why they thought they can handle it. 92 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 3: This is where human ego comes into play. 93 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 2: But once the Anchorage police department got a hold of 94 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 2: that surveillance video, they then did call pain back and 95 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:28,679 Speaker 2: they said, we think we could use some help. 96 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: No kidding. A city like Anchorage in Alaska, is it 97 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: a high crime area. 98 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: It does have a lot of crime, and Anchorage in 99 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: Alaska in general is a fascinating place, and I was 100 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: surprised to learn that many people who live there are 101 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 2: expats from the Lower forty eight. There are people who 102 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: typically really want to be left alone. Alaska, probably more 103 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: than any other state in the Union, placed a such 104 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 2: a premium on independence and liberty and personal freedoms. They 105 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: don't pave the roads because that is too onerous of 106 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: a governmental intervention. 107 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 4: Right. 108 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: So, within this context, and then within Samantha's background, it's 109 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 2: understandable in a sense to see why there might have 110 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,600 Speaker 2: been this lack of urgency until the surveillance Well, It 111 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: really wasn't the surveillance that did it, because there were 112 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: a fair amount of investigators who thought Samantha planned. 113 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 3: It with this guy. 114 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: No, are you serious? 115 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 3: They were in on it together. 116 00:06:28,520 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 2: Again, this goes the assumptions about who this young girl was. 117 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: It didn't occur to anybody on this investigation, including the FBI, 118 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 2: to start pulling surveillance videos from the surrounding big box stores, 119 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 2: until about two and a half weeks later. Once they 120 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: pull those videos, they see Samantha breaking away from the 121 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: sky and running and she's running with her arms behind 122 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 2: her back and he tackles her. 123 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: This was outside like a wal Mart or something, or 124 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: where was it. 125 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 3: It's a major avenue. 126 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: I mean, this is like four lanes of traffic going 127 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:03,840 Speaker 2: in both ways. There is a gym, a big gym 128 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 2: that is right near her kiosk. There is an ihop, 129 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: There is a home depot. There are people passing them by. 130 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,960 Speaker 2: When he loads her into his pickup truck, there are 131 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: people surrounding them trying to get into their own vehicles. 132 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: But he has so expertly and quickly terrified her into silence. 133 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 2: Several weeks after Samantha has disappeared, her father and boyfriend 134 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 2: see a text message come in. There are all these 135 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 2: texts coming in from Samantha's phone, which is only further 136 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: confusing this investigation. This text says Connor's Bog Park. They 137 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: were told it was going to be under a photo 138 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: of a missing dog, and James and Samantha's boyfriend Dwayne 139 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: rushed to this bulletin board in this park and they 140 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: beat the cops, they beat the FBI, and there in 141 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 2: a ziplock baggie is a ransom note with a photo 142 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: of Samantha. 143 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: And she's alive in the photo. 144 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: This photo shows Samantha with her hair braided, She's wearing makeup, 145 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: She's looking at the camera. There is a newspaper dated 146 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: February twelfth, twenty twenty. So that is a proof of 147 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: life offered on the part of whoever took her. 148 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: Her father and her brother must have just been relieved, 149 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:20,640 Speaker 1: I would guess to get this proof of life photo. 150 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: The ransom note gave them hope. And the ransom note 151 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 2: demanded fifty thousand dollars something like that to be deposited 152 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: into Samantha's bank account. What was unusual and hopeful for 153 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: the investigators was that her ATM card was being used 154 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: all over Anchorage. Someone was withdrawing the daily maximum like 155 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 2: five hundred dollars. You know, they kind of really can't 156 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 2: believe that whoever has this card doesn't know. 157 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 3: That you can track its movements. 158 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,679 Speaker 2: They're really racing against time hoping that whoever has this 159 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: card doesn't realize this. 160 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: Are they nervous that this is actually sort of a 161 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: trap or they are falling for something, or do they 162 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: really think they're going to outsmart this guy at the end. 163 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 3: They really don't know. 164 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 2: You know, the card was being used in and around Anchorage, 165 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 2: so they were surveilling ATMs all over town and they 166 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 2: would always be like two minutes behind this guy. 167 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:16,720 Speaker 3: Then it went dead a week later. 168 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: That ATM card has been used one minute ago in 169 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: a tiny town in New Mexico. Oh no, this is 170 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 2: sort of like the movie moment of the Investigation where 171 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: Steve calls all the other agents. You know, everybody's out 172 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: of bed in the field office in downtown Anchorage. 173 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 3: They're watching this. 174 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: This card get used across the border right away. So 175 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: this person has figured out I can take out five 176 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 2: hundred dollars right before midnight. I'm going to cross a border. 177 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to take out five hundred dollars after midnight. 178 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 2: That's one thousand dollars in a twenty four hour period. 179 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: They get on the phone. Immediately, people are just galvanized, 180 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,319 Speaker 2: and they are rousing themselves out of bed in the 181 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: middle of the night and rushing to these scenes hoping 182 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: to find the user of this ATM card, who they 183 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 2: are now convinced has Samantha, and their primary hope is 184 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: that they not only catch him, but that Samantha is 185 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:12,560 Speaker 2: with him and that she is unhurt and alive. 186 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: I just want to make sure I get this straight. 187 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: He's gone from Alaska to New Mexico and then eventually 188 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: to Texas. 189 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: This is a guy who's mo As we know, it 190 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 2: was the unprecedented steps of when he felt the urge 191 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: to kill. He would fly out of Anchorage, where he 192 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: was living with his girlfriend and his ten year old daughter. 193 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 2: He would fly into a major hub like a Chicago, 194 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 2: where he would then rent a car and he would 195 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: take that car and he would begin to go on 196 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 2: the hunt, as he called it, and part of that 197 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:48,319 Speaker 2: involved unearthing what he called cashes or kill kits all 198 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 2: over the continental United States of America and these were 199 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: five gallon home depot buckets that he had preloaded with guns, Ammo, 200 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: zip ties, Dreno to accelerate human decomposition, wads of cash 201 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: that came from bank robberies he's also committed all over 202 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,679 Speaker 2: the United States. These bank robberies were ways for him 203 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,680 Speaker 2: to cool off after the high of an abduction and 204 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: a murder or murders, because we then learned he liked 205 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,720 Speaker 2: to take people in pairs as well, and he would 206 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 2: find someone in remote areas at random, no victim profile. 207 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 3: These could be. 208 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: Young, old, thin, overweight, they seem wealthy, they seem indigent, 209 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 2: it really doesn't matter. 210 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 1: So he's an opportunist, Oh yes. 211 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 3: But he is on the hunt. 212 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 2: What he does typically is move the bodies across state 213 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 2: lines and dispose of the remains so expertly that many 214 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: of these cases remain open as missing persons cases. 215 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,959 Speaker 1: So we're in New Mexico, I think at this point, and. 216 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 3: We're in Texas now. 217 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:53,319 Speaker 1: He was pinging in New Mexico with her bank card 218 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: and now he's in Texasser. Activity on her cell phone still. 219 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 2: Samantha's cell phone has stopped sending to messages. 220 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: It's gone dead. 221 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: What was he saying on those text messages? 222 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: Well, the night he took Samantha, he began sending text 223 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 2: messages from her cell phone to her boyfriend saying, I 224 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: know what you did. I'm going away for a couple 225 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 2: of nights. I need to be by myself. She knew 226 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 2: he had cheated on her. She was so upset she 227 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 2: couldn't bring herself to see his face. All of these 228 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 2: things that again confound the investigators. The text stop coming. 229 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 2: So really, all the FBI has to go on is 230 00:12:27,559 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 2: this ATM card that's still in use, and it's begun 231 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,800 Speaker 2: compressing its usage to a really small radius. In Texas, 232 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: in a small town called Luffkin, Texas, ranger named Steve 233 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: Rayburn sees a BOLO coming across his wires right, and 234 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: this is telling them to be on the lookout for 235 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: the most generic of suspects, tall white man. 236 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 3: That's all they've got to go on. 237 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:50,160 Speaker 1: It's helpful. 238 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 2: The FBI field agent in Lufkin also gets a call. 239 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: She calls Rayburn and says, I want to come over, 240 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 2: and together they decide what they're going to do is 241 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: just go to all of the hotels in Lufkin and 242 00:13:03,840 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: just start looking through the registries and see if there's 243 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: anyone from Alaska there, and there is. Now the rangers 244 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 2: are completely electrified. 245 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 3: They know the room number, they can look at the room. 246 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 2: They see this middle aged white man on the balcony 247 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 2: and he's eyeballing a vehicle below. And then he exits 248 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 2: the building and he starts loading stuff up. So now 249 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: they know that's their guy. And he begins very slowly 250 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: exiting that parking lot. Now, once he gets on US 251 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 2: fifty nine, he can fly, he can go. They have 252 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 2: a period of maybe three minutes to find a reason 253 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: to pull this guy over. So Rayburn is radioing to 254 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 2: the detective who is on his tail and saying, I 255 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 2: need you to find a reason to pull over. Keys 256 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: has stopped at a red light, and once it turns green, 257 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: he goes, and he's going three miles over the speed limit, 258 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,880 Speaker 2: and on go the sirens. The cop who pulled him 259 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 2: over later said, I couldn't even believe this guy pulled 260 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: over because he wasn't really doing anything. 261 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: When he is caught, it's very calm, and then they 262 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: bring him in and then we start to learn all 263 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: of this stuff about who he is. 264 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 2: So Keys is extradited from Lufkin to Anchorage, Alaska, Okay. 265 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: So the FBI has two timelines of travels of Israel Keys. 266 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 2: One was made public and one was internal and kept secret, 267 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 2: and it was informed by many things, including his own journals. 268 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 3: At the end of the FBI's secret internal. 269 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 2: Timeline, his last known travel is of course that extradition. 270 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 2: But there is a curious, unremarked upon stop in Oklahoma City, 271 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: which I can revisit with you later. So when they 272 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: get him, they realize they have one shot with Israel 273 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: Keys to get him to confess to Samantha Koenik, and. 274 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: She's nowhere to be found. I'm assuming in the. 275 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: Car she is nowhere to be found. 276 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 2: There is not a trace of Samantha, although they have 277 00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: discovered on his person her ATM card and then one 278 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 2: stay open the trunk, there's her cell phone. 279 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: Is that enough for them to assume that she is 280 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 1: dead because they have a photo that purports that she 281 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: is alive. There's no blood, there's no crime scene. He 282 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: probably doesn't have any scratches on him. So right now 283 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: the only thing they could do is get him on 284 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 1: the fraud charges. I'm assuming is that right? 285 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: One percent? Right, Okay. 286 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 2: If he had kept his mouth shut, that's all they 287 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: would have gotten him on. 288 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 3: That's it. 289 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 2: And that's why this was such a high stakes interrogation 290 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: because they really had to leverage the fact that they 291 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 2: knew nothing and make him think that they knew everything 292 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:38,720 Speaker 2: to get him to confess and to get the investigation 293 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,720 Speaker 2: moving into who else he had taken and killed? 294 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: Right, And that is legal. They can lie to a 295 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: certain extent to get information out of them. 296 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 2: That is such a great point because they can lie. 297 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 2: But guess who can't a prosecutor. And guess what happens 298 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 2: the minute Keys is extradited to Alaska, the federal prosecutor 299 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: in this case goes to the FBI and says, this 300 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 2: is my case now, and I'm going to run this interrogation. 301 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 2: And Kevin fell this meanwhile, is saying, you know, he's 302 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 2: the prosecutor and I'm gonna I'm gonna lead this interrogation. 303 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: And so now they can't lie the Keys. He's talking 304 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 2: to his court appointed defense lawyer. 305 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: Okay, And that's an anchorage. 306 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: That's an anchorage. 307 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 2: And this guy, by the way, he's not your average 308 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: court appointed defense lawyer. 309 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 3: He is one of the most. 310 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: Prominent defense attorneys in Alaska, and he is staunchly anti 311 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 2: death penalty. Initially, the deal his attorney makes with the 312 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: federal prosecutor is, if you take the death penalty off 313 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 2: the table, he will confess to Samantha. 314 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: How do we get from hey, keys, you got her 315 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: bank card? This is fraud to him confessing? What is 316 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: that conversation? Even like, how do they convince him of that? 317 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: This remains dark to us? How they negotiated that. I 318 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 2: believe he was promised that the death penalty would be 319 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: taken off the table. 320 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 3: I spoke to his who. 321 00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 2: Sort of shed light on this, and she told me 322 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 2: that when she saw the footage of Israel being arrested 323 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:09,440 Speaker 2: in Lufkin, Texas, on the side of that road, that 324 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 2: she knew that he knew his life was over, and 325 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 2: he came to believe they had enough to get him 326 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 2: on the kidnapping and murder of Samantha. It would be 327 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 2: in his best interest to confess to that, get the 328 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:27,920 Speaker 2: death penalty off the table, and use what he would 329 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: call his other stories that dated back to the time 330 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 2: he was quote two different people and he was asked, 331 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 2: how long have you been to different people and he chuckled, 332 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 2: and he said a long time fourteen years. 333 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: We're talking with journalist Maureen Callahan, who has written a 334 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 1: New York Times best selling book about Israel Keys, one 335 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,800 Speaker 1: of the most disturbing serial killers in American history. The 336 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: FBI has now caught Keys, and he has confessed to 337 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 1: the murder of Samantha Koenig, But now investigators are learning 338 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 1: that there are likely many, many other victims. They had 339 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: no idea he was a serial killer. They just thought 340 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 1: this was an abduction, right, and then a murder. 341 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 3: Well, they thought it was an abduction and a murder. 342 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,120 Speaker 2: But again when they got him in Texas and they 343 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: tried talking to him, and they realized, this guy's not rattled. 344 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: He is acting like we picked him up for jaywalking 345 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: or littering. 346 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 3: This isn't his first time. 347 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: What did Key say happen? 348 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: So he took her put her in his shed. It's 349 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 2: about one in the morning. He's got the radio really loud, 350 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 2: heavy metal. His girlfriend. He's waiting for her to go 351 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: to bed. She's a night owl. He's checking on his 352 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 2: daughter and making sure she's asleep. Now, mind you, in 353 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: about five hours, he and his daughter are catching a 354 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 2: cab to go to the airport to catch a flight 355 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 2: to New Orleans where they're going to board like a 356 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 2: family themed cruise. The timeline is so tight that the 357 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:11,119 Speaker 2: FBI just they're not believing him. He raped Samantha in 358 00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 2: his shed and then he strangles her. He strangles her 359 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 2: to death. He's leading her to believe he's going to 360 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 2: let her go, and he never has any intention of 361 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,840 Speaker 2: letting her go. Then he says, I went inside, I 362 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 2: took a shower, slept for a little bit, got up, 363 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 2: took my kid, and we called the cab and we 364 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 2: were out the door, and they're like, what did you 365 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,960 Speaker 2: do with Samantha? What did you do with her remains? 366 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: And he said, well, I left them in the shed. 367 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: With no fear that his girlfriend was going to find it. 368 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 2: No, I wasn't thinking anything. Really, I'm thinking, it's twenty 369 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: degrees in Alaska and I'm going to be just fine. 370 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 371 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 2: Then they want to know about the ransom note, Well, 372 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 2: when did he take that photo? 373 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 3: How did he do that? 374 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 2: When he got back from the vacation, they were gone 375 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 2: for about two weeks, he would go into his shed 376 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:54,080 Speaker 2: while his daughter was at school. 377 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 3: He took some makeup, some of it with Samantha. 378 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 2: Some of it was his girlfriends made up her face, 379 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 2: braided her hair. He took some fishing wire and a 380 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 2: needle and he sewed her eyelids open. 381 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: So she would look like she was alive for the photo, 382 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: for the proof of life photo. 383 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 3: Exactly. 384 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 2: They need to know where she is, and he gives 385 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: them right off the top of his head the coordinates 386 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 2: to the deepest part of one of the deepest lakes, 387 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: about forty miles away. They go out there, there's a 388 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:29,639 Speaker 2: snowpack dead on coordinates. They see a fresh scar in 389 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,119 Speaker 2: the ice, and they think this guy's telling the truth. 390 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: They recover Samantha. They're really up against it because they've 391 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,719 Speaker 2: got to find out what else he's done. 392 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: Was it like a fishing hole, like he cut winter 393 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: fishing hole and put her in? Is that what this was? 394 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: Yes, goes to this lake which is a very popular 395 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: ice fishing spot. And this again, this is part of 396 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:55,199 Speaker 2: the brazenness and just the complete lack of concern that 397 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 2: anybody's ever going to be onto what he's doing. Did 398 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: this all in the sort of compressed timeline that he did. 399 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 2: He had no ties to Samantha, And it was this 400 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 2: crime of opportunity. He told them he had been looking 401 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: at other kiosks they were either too well lit or 402 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 2: too well trafficked. 403 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:12,760 Speaker 3: You know, that was the extent of it. 404 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 2: The agents in these interrogations, once this confession happened, you know, 405 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 2: they called the FBI's criminal profilers immediately and they said, 406 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: you've got to help us. 407 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: How do we get what we can out of him? 408 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: And they said, we don't know what to tell you 409 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: because we've never seen one like this before. 410 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: Why How was he different from a Bundy? What are 411 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: the differences between these kind of guys. 412 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: Bundy was someone that Key's really idolized. But Bundy had 413 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 2: a very specific victimology, a very specific type. He went 414 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 2: after really young girls, like collegiate and then later as 415 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 2: he progressed and worsened, you know, he would go after children. 416 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: It was predictable, it was a pattern. 417 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 3: It was a very predictable pattern. But with Keys, he's 418 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: going after men, women young. 419 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 2: Oh, He's traveling all over the United States of America. 420 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: He's taking people from one state disposing of them in another. 421 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 2: The FBI's official line is that, for various reasons, they 422 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 2: believe he killed eleven people. 423 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 3: I think it's a far higher number. 424 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: There are several missing persons cases that I explore in 425 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: the books, some of which are very famous people you 426 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: would know for reading, like People magazine or true crime 427 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: blogs that seem very likely to have fallen prey to 428 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,240 Speaker 2: Israel Keys. Law enforcement and the public at large really 429 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: need to learn from him. He was asked, who is 430 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: your favorite serial killer? Sounds like an odd question. I 431 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: think the phraseology is odd, but he said, it's the 432 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 2: one who hasn't been caught yet, by which he meant 433 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: there's another one behind me, and he's even better. 434 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: Where do you start with Israel Keys in his life? 435 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 2: This question hung over me the entire time I was 436 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: writing the book. I spent hundreds of hours over like 437 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: a year and a half interviewing these agents who most 438 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 2: closely worked the case, who were in the room interrogating him, 439 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 2: And this is the one thing they would never venture 440 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 2: into his background. He tells the story of growing up 441 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: with these parents he describes as cultists, and they are 442 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 2: just cult shopping cult to cult to cult cult. They 443 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 2: are nomads all over the country. And Keys is the 444 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 2: second of ten children. He's and his older sister America. 445 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 2: They're the first two. They were raised in Utah until 446 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 2: about the age of five. His parents were Mormons, but 447 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 2: they never let the kids out of the house, and 448 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 2: they never went to preschool or kindergarten, and the neighbors 449 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 2: were getting very concerned and curious. And that's when Heidi 450 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: and Jeff were like, we're out of here. We know 451 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 2: there's going to be a knock on the door from 452 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 2: CPS or something. 453 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 3: So they take the kids. 454 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: And they move all the way up to Colville, Washington, 455 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: which is this super remote mountainous region where John says 456 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 2: he going to build them a cabin and it takes 457 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: years and they're living intents in the freezing winter, and 458 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 2: they have no electricity. When this house is done, this cabin, 459 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 2: they have no electricity, They have no indoor plumbing. 460 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 3: Israel is taught from. 461 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 2: A very young age how to hunt animals so they 462 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 2: can eat. They don't go to school, They never see 463 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 2: a doctor. They are completely isolated. They join a white 464 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: supremacist church called the Arc, where Israel, around thirteen fourteen, 465 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 2: be friends a pair of brothers named Chevy and Shane Keyhoe. 466 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:39,639 Speaker 2: Chevy and Shane Keyho will later go on to be 467 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 2: on the FBI's Top ten most Wanted list, One of 468 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,959 Speaker 2: them has ties to Timothy McVay, the Oklahoma City bomber. 469 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 2: He also tells the psychologists who is doing his evaluation. 470 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: At this age, he has become very interested in breaking 471 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: and entering. This takes the form of everything from stealing 472 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,360 Speaker 2: guns to just moving people's furniture around and then going 473 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 2: and hiding in the woods and watching people come home 474 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,879 Speaker 2: and see the terror on their faces that someone's been 475 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 2: in their house and move their stuff around, but they 476 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: haven't taken anything. 477 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: Did you get the impression that they were physically abused 478 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: by their parents? Yes? 479 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 2: Yes, I think Israel definitely was abused by his father. 480 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: It may have been sexual as well. I think it 481 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 2: probably was. Keyes's commanding officer in the army was convinced 482 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,719 Speaker 2: of it. Whoa, oh yeah, John Keys died under very 483 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 2: mysterious circumstances. 484 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: What kind of mysterious circumstances. 485 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,479 Speaker 2: So they were traveling by train. I believe this time 486 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: it was from Maine to Indiana. Think of people who 487 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: sort of look like not of this time, not of 488 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,680 Speaker 2: this era. John on this day's long trip is just decompensating, 489 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,880 Speaker 2: just decompensating this family is just so disturbing and disturbed. 490 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 2: And finally the conductor says, you got to get this 491 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 2: man off of this train and into a hospital, like 492 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: you all have to get off this train. 493 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 3: And they did, and nobody knows where they went. 494 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 2: We know that John died, but there's no obituary that 495 00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,479 Speaker 2: really can be found. There's no death notice, there's no 496 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: autopsy on record. We don't know where he's buried. The 497 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,320 Speaker 2: whole thing is shrouded in mystery. Had he availed himself 498 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 2: of Western medicine, he probably would never have died. 499 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: He has this background, he has not been socialized, he's 500 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: abused by at least his father. Yet he still gets 501 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: married and has a daughter. It just seems so counterintuitive 502 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: to this type of lifestyle that he wants to live. 503 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: Is this just compartmentalizing different parts of his life. 504 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: Well, there are several things going on. I think he 505 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 2: realized that he was going to have to wear a 506 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 2: very good mask for a very long time, and part 507 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 2: of that mask would be a wife and a family. Right, 508 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 2: And he knows this because he knows at this very 509 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: early age he's different, like you were alluding to, he's 510 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 2: developing like a textbook serial killer. He is abusing and 511 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: torturing animals. He is lighting fires, he is building bombs. 512 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 2: At fourteen, he's hiding in the woods and training himself 513 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 2: to stay still for hours and realizing that he can 514 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 2: hunt for people out there and take people. He's online 515 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: on dating sites, always looking, and he finds this woman 516 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 2: who he would later refer to as his wife. 517 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: They were never legally married. 518 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 2: When she gets pregnant, he at first does not want 519 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,200 Speaker 2: her to have the child, breaks it off with her. 520 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 2: A couple of weeks later changes his mind, and when 521 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: his daughter is born, she notices something profoundly shift in him. 522 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 2: And I have to tell you everyone who ever knew him, 523 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 2: even the most cynical, hardened agents on this case, they 524 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 2: all believed he truly loved his daughter, who is now eighteen, incredibly. 525 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: No signs of abuse or anything from her. 526 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 2: No. 527 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 3: In fact, Tammy her mother. 528 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 2: She began to really really struggle with substance abuse, and 529 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: Keys figured out a way to basically get primary custody 530 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: without ever having a file, without ever making Tammy feel 531 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: like she was a failure as a mother or as 532 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 2: a human being. You know, that relationship stayed very, very 533 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 2: amicable and She was very much a part of his life, 534 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 2: but he was intent on getting his child out of 535 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 2: what he thought was a truly dangerous situation. He doted 536 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 2: on her. He put her in the gifted and talented 537 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 2: program at the local school. Anytime she wasn't in his sight, 538 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 2: she was to call. 539 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 3: Him every hour. I mean, we know why. He knows 540 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: there are people like him out there. 541 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: So he goes into the army at some point, right. 542 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 2: He goes in at like eighteen, How and why is 543 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 2: such a mystery. He enlisted in New Jersey. And this 544 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 2: is so interesting because his family had property up in 545 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,640 Speaker 2: New York at a place called Comps, very remote, and 546 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: his father at some point signed it over to keys. 547 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 2: Constable comes up, he starts talking about it, and he 548 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: tells them that he has buried nine thousand rounds of 549 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 2: black talent ammo on those grounds. Black talent ammo is illegal. 550 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: Those are known as cop killer bullets. They are deadly 551 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: because they can pierce the vest kept. Yeah, yes, And 552 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 2: then he tells them, well, that's not all. I mean, 553 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 2: he really loves to build bombs. Within minutes, bomb squads 554 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,200 Speaker 2: are deployed on both sides of the country. There's one 555 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: that heads to Constable, and then there's one that heads 556 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 2: to the house and anchorage. This is where the case 557 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 2: really does get its redesignation from serial murder to terrorism. 558 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: Had he not been caught. He had this master plan. 559 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 2: He was going to travel around the country as sort 560 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 2: of an itinerant handyman slash construction worker. And what he 561 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 2: was going to do was capitalize on the frequency of 562 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: natural disasters and then take people, because who's going to 563 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 2: miss people from a place that's a. 564 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: Tornado or a flood by Katrina? 565 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 3: Right exactly. 566 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: Well, I've read a couple of stories somewhat recently of 567 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: women going missing after Katrina, after hurricane and after nine 568 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: to eleven. That actually happened a couple of times because 569 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: they are lost in the shuffle and their husbands kill him. 570 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 2: He had all these other plans, like he was going 571 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: to set fire to a string of churches all over 572 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 2: the United States, and he was going to kill people 573 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: and pose them in really shocking tableaus and leave them 574 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 2: in these churches and then burn them to the ground. 575 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 3: So can you imagine the sort of national panic. 576 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: This is someone with an unbelievable amount of anger. 577 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 2: And I think he had an exceptional amount of rage 578 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 2: towards his mother for not protecting him from his father, yeah, 579 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: and not protecting him from their way of life, which 580 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 2: caused him and his siblings so much physical agony and 581 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 2: pain and social isolation. Some of his siblings are still 582 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 2: cultists to this day. His mother is still a cultist. 583 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: I wondered if any of his siblings had acted out, certainly, 584 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 1: not to this extent, but had anybody else gotten in trouble? 585 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: You said he was one of ten, right. 586 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting, you asked, because there was one sister. 587 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 2: And he told this to the psychiatrist who did his evaluation, 588 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: who likes to do the same things he did, by 589 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: which I mean set fires, torture animals, probably torture animals, 590 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 2: breaking and entering, stealing really dangerous stuff. And he said, 591 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 2: I stopped doing things with her because she couldn't keep 592 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 2: her mouth shut. 593 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,959 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, what motivates him to not keep his mouth shut? 594 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: The death penalties off the table, why not continue staying 595 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 1: silent about everybody? Does he just now want everyone to 596 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: know what he's accomplished? Is that what motivates him? 597 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: So this case just gets weirder and weirder and weirder. 598 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 3: So then he changes his mind. 599 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: After Samantha, he comes back to the table and he says, 600 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 2: you know what I want, the death penalty, and I 601 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:01,600 Speaker 2: want it fast. So now the investigator have some leverage, 602 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: they have something he wants. He says, I will give 603 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: you two bodies and a name. So he says, I 604 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 2: need you to pull up a Google map, and he's like, Vermont, 605 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 2: Holy shit, like Vermont. What's this guy doing in Vermont? 606 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 2: He says, this town, and he says, this couple went missing. 607 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 2: They've never saw the case and nobody knows what happens 608 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: to them. I was in that area. He had dug 609 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 2: up his kill kit. This is in Essex, Vermont, in 610 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 2: what year? So they went missing? I believe it was 611 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: twenty eleven. Time between his abductions and murders, it's getting 612 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,880 Speaker 2: shorter and shorter and shorter, which goes to sort of 613 00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 2: why he was caught in the end. 614 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 3: And so he's out on the hunt one night and it's. 615 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 4: Raining and it's dark, and he is stalking the outdoor 616 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 4: parking lot of an apartment complex and this guy pulls 617 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 4: in in his car he's alone, pulls a newspaper over 618 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 4: his head, and he's sort of running to his building 619 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 4: and keys is following him, and this guy doesn't know it. 620 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: And the way he describes it, he takes his right 621 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 2: arm and he is lunging for the sky and he 622 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: just misses him, and the guy gets in his door 623 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: and that's it. And he says, if that guy had 624 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 2: been five seconds slower that night, he would have been 625 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 2: the one. 626 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 3: Wow. 627 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: So instead he goes out walking around and he comes 628 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: upon this ranch style house. 629 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 3: He's got these rules. 630 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 2: Looks in the backyard and it doesn't seem like there 631 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 2: are any kids there, doesn't seem like there are any 632 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: animals there. 633 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 3: He cuts the phone line, no home alarm system goes off. 634 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 2: He decides he's going to break in and he's going 635 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: to take whoever's in there, and he's pretty sure it's 636 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: a married couple. He climbs in. He gets in through 637 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 2: the garage. There's a door that leads into the kitchen. 638 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,479 Speaker 2: He breaks the glass window. He's in their bedroom and 639 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 2: has Bill and Lorraine Courier zip tied and on their 640 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 2: bellies and he abducted them, took them from their home 641 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,160 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night, drove them to a 642 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 2: remote abandoned farmhouse. He drove Bill and Lorraine up at 643 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 2: like one in the morning. They fight, They both fight. 644 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 2: This sends Keys into just a fury because he has 645 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 2: a very specific way he likes things to go. He 646 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 2: always has a plan when he takes people. If anything 647 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,719 Speaker 2: gets in the way of that plan, he cannot handle it. 648 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,279 Speaker 2: And he winds up shooting Bill to death. That was 649 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 2: not what he wanted, and then he strangled her and 650 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 2: he then realizes the sun is coming up. He had 651 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 2: planned to burn the house down, but now he can't 652 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,360 Speaker 2: because people are going to be on the road. Pours 653 00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: draino on the bodies to start accelerating the decomposition, especially 654 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 2: the fingerprints the faces, puts them in huge garbage bags, 655 00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:36,920 Speaker 2: and he leaves them in the bottom of the basement. 656 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: Now he's asked, aren't you worried somebody's going to discover 657 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 2: those bodies? And he says, no, I could tell by 658 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 2: looking at that house that whoever buys it is going 659 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 2: to buy it for the land, and they're going to 660 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 2: raise the house without ever going in. And if somebody 661 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,360 Speaker 2: does decide to try to go down into the basement, 662 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 2: they're going to assume that rancid smell is a dead animal, 663 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,800 Speaker 2: and they're going to turn and walk away. 664 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 3: And he was completely right. 665 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,840 Speaker 2: By the time the FBI gets agents to the site, 666 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 2: that house has been raised and the basement has been excavated, 667 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 2: so there is no trace of Bill or Lorraine Courier. 668 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:13,200 Speaker 2: He realized after he confessed to the Couriers that they 669 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: didn't know half of what they thought they knew, or 670 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 2: what they were implying they knew, or leading him to 671 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 2: believe they needed everything that he had to tell them 672 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: in order to find anybody. And he actually said this 673 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 2: to them. He said, now I know you'll never find 674 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,000 Speaker 2: another one without me. You have to give me everything 675 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:29,439 Speaker 2: I want. 676 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: Nauseating. 677 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: In fact, he tried to commit suicide in prison early 678 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 2: on into this investigation. 679 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 3: This is also something the government has kept secret by law. 680 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 2: They had to put him in the psych ward, and 681 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 2: he got out of that psych ward so fast. They 682 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 2: were all demoralized. They thought, this guy has cut some 683 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 2: sweetheart deal with the fence. Is the most hated man 684 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 2: in Alaska. You know, everybody wants him dead. He's cut 685 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 2: this deal with the fence. He's getting everything he wants. 686 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 2: He's getting The New York Times delivered to his cell 687 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 2: daily he's getting internet access. 688 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: In my first book, I have aial killer actually sounds 689 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,040 Speaker 1: pretty similar, who put his victims' bodies in an outdoor 690 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: washroom and his own property, but bury them in his 691 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: house and in his backyard because he wanted to be 692 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 1: close to them. But this killer, John Reginald Christy, in 693 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: my book, was not dynamic. He was sort of a 694 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: blended to the wallpaper kind of guy, and he reveled 695 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: in the attention because he had never gotten this kind 696 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: of attention. How in your book do you sort of 697 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: try to balance getting to know the victims in the victims' 698 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: families and still getting into the mind of somebody like him, 699 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: which my struggle has always been that the killer is 700 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: frequently more interesting than the victims. 701 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 2: I was very, very cognizant about describing his crimes in 702 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: such a way that what he did and how he 703 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 2: did it, how he got away with it would be 704 00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 2: edifying for law enforcement, for anyone studying criminal psychology or 705 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 2: the criminal. 706 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 3: Mind, without using details that were. 707 00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 2: Not edifying, right, that were just sort of ghoulish, and 708 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 2: really keeping the victims in their families in mind. And secondly, 709 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 2: I was always more fascinated with the manhunt and the 710 00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 2: investigation and how that unfolded than I was in Keys himself. 711 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,600 Speaker 2: I remain endlessly fascinated with the mysteries that still abound 712 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 2: surrounding this case, including the cold cases all over the 713 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 2: country that are very likely his, that most definitely should 714 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,000 Speaker 2: be reopened and reinvestigated. 715 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: How many did he confess to solidly? 716 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: They asked him point blank, and he said, according to 717 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 2: the FBI, less than a dozen. They settled on the 718 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,760 Speaker 2: number eleven, because less than a dozen is weird. 719 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,320 Speaker 3: Most people round by fives. He didn't. 720 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 2: They would search his cell regularly, and one of the 721 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,759 Speaker 2: things that they found were eleven skulls that he had 722 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,920 Speaker 2: drawn in his own blood, and then on top of 723 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,000 Speaker 2: one he had written, and we are one. 724 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 3: He would refer to his victims as mine, their mine. 725 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 2: If he were to confess to the FBI any more 726 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,240 Speaker 2: than he did, they would no longer be his. I 727 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,360 Speaker 2: personally believe that number is just way higher. 728 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 3: He was thirty six when he was arrested. 729 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 2: He said he'd been a different person for fourteen years. 730 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: I think his first victim was twelve year old Julie 731 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: Harris up in Colville in Washington and I think it 732 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 2: would be something of a black eye for the FBI 733 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 2: to admit that it probably is and that they just 734 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,239 Speaker 2: don't know. 735 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:35,560 Speaker 1: How does Israel Keys's story end. 736 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 2: Israel Keys ultimately ends his own life, but in doing so, 737 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 2: he has created yet another beginning, and that beginning is 738 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 2: the complete certainty that this case will never be closed. 739 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,440 Speaker 3: So, you know, anyone who. 740 00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 2: Is interested in potentially visiting or revisiting some of the 741 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,680 Speaker 2: cold cases in the anamals of American crime, there's a 742 00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 2: fascinating cold case that I call the Boca Killer. There's 743 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 2: one survivor of that spree who lived and who went 744 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,520 Speaker 2: to the police and worked up a sketch and coupled 745 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: with them of all of the abductions in the kills 746 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 2: along with a sketch that is a dead ringer for 747 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 2: Israel Keys. 748 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: My mother is a huge true crime fan who is 749 00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: disturbed by nothing. Frankly, I mean it's unbelievable the things 750 00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: that she can watch or read or listen to. And 751 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: Israel Keys, she said, was fucked up. She said it 752 00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: was very disturbing to hear about his stories. It takes 753 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 1: a lot for me to be shocked and surprised. I 754 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 1: imagine at some point you really didn't want to read 755 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: the details of some of these cases. 756 00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 3: I mean sometimes you can't. 757 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 2: I felt that it was important to have all of 758 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,240 Speaker 2: the details that would allow anyone, as best as they could, 759 00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: to understand who he was, how he got that way, 760 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: how he was able to do what he did. If 761 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: you silo the Samantha Coneing investigation and you look at 762 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 2: the things that the police department and the FBI did 763 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 2: wrong and in that is the all too common assumption 764 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 2: that a girl who comes from a meager background, who 765 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,600 Speaker 2: has had issues with substance abuse is not to be prioritized. 766 00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words. 767 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 5: That's the monster that you don't want on the street. 768 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 5: I hate to think that there's people like that, but 769 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 5: we know that there are. The fear of people like 770 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 5: that is why they work so hard to put Michael away, 771 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 5: and we don't want that guy out on the street, 772 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 5: but instead they let that guy keep doing it and 773 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:36,880 Speaker 5: put an innocent in the way. 774 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 775 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 776 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more media production Alexis and 777 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Epan is our sound designer. 778 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for US. Curtis Heath does 779 00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA Brink 780 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 781 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and 782 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. 783 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: If you are an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, 784 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: go to midroll dot com slash ads and if you 785 00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: know of a historical true crime story that could use 786 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,840 Speaker 1: some attention from the crew at tenfold more. Wicked, email 787 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: us at info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. Listen on Apple, Stitcher, 788 00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,440 Speaker 1: Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.