WEBVTT - Guns Are A Democracy Problem

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with

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<v Speaker 1>Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker.

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<v Speaker 2>Folks, I'm coming to you.

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<v Speaker 1>Today from a place of struggle, from a place of

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<v Speaker 1>feeling complicit in the compartmentalization that we do as citizens

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<v Speaker 1>of this country, where we acquiesce to the little that

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<v Speaker 1>we get from our government and justify the wrongs that

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<v Speaker 1>are committed in our name or committed truly in the

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<v Speaker 1>name of capitalism, greed, and patriarchy. But we do so,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we tell ourselves. I feel that at well,

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<v Speaker 1>change takes time. Change is slow, justice is slow. The

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<v Speaker 1>arc is long, but it bends towards justice. Is everyone's

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<v Speaker 1>favorite quote from Martin Luther King Junior. And today I

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<v Speaker 1>don't know. I am speaking to you as I prepare

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<v Speaker 1>to head to Washington, DC to attend a Pride event

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<v Speaker 1>at the White House, and I was trying to decide

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<v Speaker 1>whether or not I was going to share publicly that

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to attend the Pride event at the

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<v Speaker 1>White House. And then I realize that if I'm keeping

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<v Speaker 1>it a secret, or I'm just not sharing it in

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<v Speaker 1>the way that I share most of things that I

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<v Speaker 1>do around work, then that means something deeper. I woke

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<v Speaker 1>up this morning and was really wondering whether or not

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<v Speaker 1>I was going to go. And there are so many reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>There were so many reasons that I talk about on

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<v Speaker 1>this show. But when I received the news that Representative

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<v Speaker 1>Jamal Bowman lost his primary race to APAC, backed basically

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<v Speaker 1>of Republican Light George Latimer, who was endorsed by Hillary

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<v Speaker 1>Clinton among other Establishment Democrats, is pro Israel, which means

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<v Speaker 1>to me, your pro genocide. I was disgusted because this

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<v Speaker 1>is what special interest groups with a lot of fucking

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<v Speaker 1>money and a lot of fucking power do. They thwart

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<v Speaker 1>the will of the people in order to advance their

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<v Speaker 1>own interests. That race had nothing to do with the

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<v Speaker 1>district that Bowman has been representing. It had nothing to

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<v Speaker 1>do with the people in that district. It had everything

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<v Speaker 1>to do with using power and influence to silence those

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<v Speaker 1>that you don't agree with on an issue that honestly

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<v Speaker 1>everyone should agree on. Humanity right, how we navigate war, right,

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<v Speaker 1>the rules of a fucking engagement. But APAC, along with

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<v Speaker 1>establishment Democrats, sent a powerful message through Bowman's loss, which

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<v Speaker 1>is shut up and get in line, and if you don't,

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<v Speaker 1>we will dispose of you. And so I struggle with

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<v Speaker 1>going to a pride event at the White House while

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<v Speaker 1>children are starving, while an entire group of people, millions

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<v Speaker 1>of people have been run off their land, blown up, beaten,

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<v Speaker 1>raped and tortured, all in the name of security and safety.

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<v Speaker 1>And I posted on social media that you are never

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<v Speaker 1>going to convince me that any of those acts are

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<v Speaker 1>about securing safety for any one group of people. And

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<v Speaker 1>so I have very little pride in this moment. And

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<v Speaker 1>I reached out to a friend of mine who was

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<v Speaker 1>running down all of the things that the Biden administration

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<v Speaker 1>has done for the queer community, the inclusion of queer

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<v Speaker 1>kids in Title nine, the protections that Biden is trying

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<v Speaker 1>to put forward, all of which frankly, can be rolled

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<v Speaker 1>back right like as soon as Donald Trump would assume

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<v Speaker 1>the White House, all of these executive orders, all of

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<v Speaker 1>these advancements are gone. And so what does it mean

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<v Speaker 1>to have pride in this moment? I really don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>I know that my initial reason for wanting to attend

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<v Speaker 1>the White House Pride event was because, in my heart, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>I honestly believe that this may be the last one,

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<v Speaker 1>and I want I wanted to experience the White House

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<v Speaker 1>with my friends, with my community for potentially the last time.

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<v Speaker 1>And I feel selfish in wanting to do that. I

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<v Speaker 1>feel complicit in the violence, in the greed, in the

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<v Speaker 1>dehumanization that is happening. But honestly, I just I find

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<v Speaker 1>myself today at a loss.

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<v Speaker 2>We are waiting.

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<v Speaker 1>By the time that you listen to this, the Supreme

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<v Speaker 1>Court could have decided that Donald Trump is immune and

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<v Speaker 1>presidents are immune from persecution for crimes committed while in office.

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<v Speaker 1>They're taking up a case that they will hear whether

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<v Speaker 1>or not trans youth and trans people should receive the

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<v Speaker 1>medical treatment that they need to live full and complete lives.

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<v Speaker 1>If your life has never been on the line, if

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<v Speaker 1>you have never waited with anxiousness and dread as a

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<v Speaker 1>group of unelected black robes decide whether or not you

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<v Speaker 1>are worthy, you are part of a privileged class. I

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<v Speaker 1>just feel like everything around us is crumbling so quickly.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like trying to hold water in your hands, and

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<v Speaker 1>everything is just seeping through the cracks everywhere. Power, privilege,

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<v Speaker 1>and whiteness are winning. And so what does it mean

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<v Speaker 1>to just want to pretend for two hours that we

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<v Speaker 1>are safe, that we are okay, that we have the

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<v Speaker 1>means to ride out this dark tempest that we're in.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't feel celebratory. I don't feel hopeful. And I

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<v Speaker 1>know that my ancestors experienced far fucking worse, and there

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<v Speaker 1>are people alive right now that are experiencing the unimaginable.

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<v Speaker 1>So what do we do?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 1>We are set to celebrate as a country our independence.

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<v Speaker 1>It seems laughable, it seems ridiculous. But do we continue

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<v Speaker 1>to celebrate small incremental victories, small incremental change moments while

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<v Speaker 1>continuing to toil for the greater good? But if this moment,

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<v Speaker 1>if this primary loss by Bowmen is foreshadowing, this is

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<v Speaker 1>why Biden is making the decisions that he's making. They

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<v Speaker 1>spend twenty million dollars to oust a progressive black man

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<v Speaker 1>from office, They'll spend billions to do that for the presidency.

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<v Speaker 1>And so the politics, the dark, fucking evil politics that

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<v Speaker 1>are at play, it's just a lot. And it's like,

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<v Speaker 1>do we allow this administration to continue the political maneuvering

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<v Speaker 1>that they're doing because they know that a pack and

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<v Speaker 1>other APAC backed organizations and foundations and super wealthy billionaires

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<v Speaker 1>will oust him. Because at the end of the day, folks,

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Biden's going to be fine, right, He's a wealthy,

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<v Speaker 1>white powerful man in America. If he doesn't regain the presidency,

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<v Speaker 1>he'll be fine.

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<v Speaker 2>He'll live out his you know, sunset years.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, it is the rest of us, and it is

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<v Speaker 1>the horrendous non choices that we are really being dealt.

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<v Speaker 1>It is hard, hard pills to swallow when you recognize

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<v Speaker 1>that you are backed into a corner and the only

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<v Speaker 1>way to get out is to fight our way out

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<v Speaker 1>with everything that we have. Because these people, their pockets

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<v Speaker 1>are bottomless, their lies are endless, their power and reach

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<v Speaker 1>no no bounds. All we have left is the community

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<v Speaker 1>that we built, that we continue to nurture and lift

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<v Speaker 1>up and push forward.

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<v Speaker 2>So today I.

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<v Speaker 1>Am headed to the White House to remind myself in

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<v Speaker 1>many ways what is at stake, and to try and

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<v Speaker 1>get the courage, the faith, the resilience to continue pushing forward.

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<v Speaker 1>The months ahead just feel so insurmountable, but it is

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<v Speaker 1>always impossible until it is done. Coming up next, my

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<v Speaker 1>conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel.

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<v Speaker 1>We talk about a recent piece that was written by

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<v Speaker 1>the Surgeon General on naming gun violence in this country

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<v Speaker 1>is a public health issue, which is exactly what Jonathan's book,

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<v Speaker 1>whose latest book, What We've Become, is all about, is

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<v Speaker 1>how we need to reframe and how public health may

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<v Speaker 1>not be the framing that is needed. That conversation is

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<v Speaker 1>coming up next, folks. You know that whenever we have

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<v Speaker 1>the opportunity to sit down with our in house doctor,

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<v Speaker 1>doctor Jonathan Metzl, we are always always thrilled and honored.

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<v Speaker 1>And I will say, dear friends, I know Jonathan lied

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<v Speaker 1>to you last week when he said that this week

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<v Speaker 1>we were to talk about rainbows, puppies and sprinkles, But

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<v Speaker 1>unfortunately wrong country for that. We're not in Finland, Norway

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<v Speaker 1>or someplace else that seems nice and safe.

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<v Speaker 3>Let me say one thing about this. I appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. It's funny because like I'm in New York

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<v Speaker 3>for the summer and I have all these Fox News

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<v Speaker 3>watching friends or people I know in Tennessee or something

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<v Speaker 3>like that, and when they're here I'm in New York,

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<v Speaker 3>They're like, oh my god, you know you people must

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<v Speaker 3>be having tires burning in the streets and like you

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<v Speaker 3>must be at the barricades every day or something like that.

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<v Speaker 3>And so I do think there's a rule for like

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<v Speaker 3>cheerful conversation. And I've been tweeting. Actually I've been walking

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<v Speaker 3>on New York and like take like, I walk down

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<v Speaker 3>my block the other day and there was there's this

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<v Speaker 3>thing called like Opera in the Streets or something, and

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<v Speaker 3>they had a stoop. They had a concert on the

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<v Speaker 3>stoop where they were like these beautifully it's just incredible

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<v Speaker 3>opera voices, singing arias, and like everybody was out there

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<v Speaker 3>with like their kids and their families. And then I

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<v Speaker 3>walked another block away and there was a steel drum concert.

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<v Speaker 3>They were doing like all these covers on steel drum

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<v Speaker 3>and everybody was dancing. So I've been tweeting like here's

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<v Speaker 3>what Fox News doesn't show you. It's just like how

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<v Speaker 3>great it is here is there?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's just like and I appreciate that you do

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<v Speaker 1>that because anytime that I see somebody like tweet something,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, you're saying that these are you like your friends.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm like, anytime that I have somebody that tweets

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<v Speaker 1>that I see that tweets something stupid about New York.

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<v Speaker 1>I always tweet like a picture like from where I am,

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<v Speaker 1>like if it's at the park, or if it's like

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<v Speaker 1>walking and passing like eighty seven strollers like on you know,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's just it's so I'm like, I'm I would

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<v Speaker 1>be more terrified to spend the summer in Tennessee and

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<v Speaker 1>I would ever be to spend the summer in New York.

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<v Speaker 3>It kind of works because I remember we talked about

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<v Speaker 3>this with Tennessee, and like in Tennessee there's like I

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<v Speaker 3>have friends who DJ'ed Bonnerou last week and there's like

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<v Speaker 3>a fun concert happening tonight, and like it's just funny.

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<v Speaker 3>How like we lived through these stereotypes which make us

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<v Speaker 3>like yeah, fear each other, and it's so manipulated. I mean,

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<v Speaker 3>I can't say this too much, but I know some

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<v Speaker 3>people at one of the very conservative media outlets, and

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<v Speaker 3>I know them like socially. I mean, I don't know

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<v Speaker 3>that like we're not friends or anything. But we were

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<v Speaker 3>out of reception a couple of weeks ago with some

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<v Speaker 3>of the Fox News hosts, Oh my god, and they

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<v Speaker 3>were like yacking it up and everybody was like getting

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<v Speaker 3>along and stuff like that, and then it was in Chelsea.

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<v Speaker 3>Everybody went out with like everybody's strollers, like acuge group,

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<v Speaker 3>people went for dinner, went for drinks, and then the

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<v Speaker 3>next day they were on Fox News saying it's a

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<v Speaker 3>hell hole. I'm afraid to like walk outside my door.

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<v Speaker 2>Like let me tell you something.

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<v Speaker 1>You are better than me because I cannot break bread

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<v Speaker 1>with thine enemy like that. That is not a part

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<v Speaker 1>of my personal wook of religion.

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<v Speaker 3>I cannot do it and stuff like it's funny. There

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<v Speaker 3>used to be this thing called Politicon. It was this yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>and it was great. I used to love speaking at

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<v Speaker 3>that thing. I don't think they do in person anymore,

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<v Speaker 3>but it was my favorite thing because like you'd be

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<v Speaker 3>on stage with like every wacket doodle in the world.

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<v Speaker 3>And the funny thing was like there was a panel.

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<v Speaker 3>We did a gun panel, and there was another panel

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<v Speaker 3>on healthcare or somebody else or something like that. And

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<v Speaker 3>if you go in the green room at Politicon, like, oh,

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<v Speaker 3>there's you know, I'm just making this up, but I

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<v Speaker 3>mean and culture yaking it up with like the MSNBC

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<v Speaker 3>host and Joy Read is like talking to like Sean Hannity,

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<v Speaker 3>like it just kind of felt like in the back

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<v Speaker 3>and there used to be this cartoon on the like bugs,

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<v Speaker 3>funny kind of cartoon where like the member, the sheep,

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<v Speaker 3>dog and the wolf would like they'd like get to

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<v Speaker 3>work in the morning. They'd be like, hey, Sam, how

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<v Speaker 3>are the kids? And then they'd clock in and they'd

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<v Speaker 3>beat the crap out of each other for eight hours

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<v Speaker 3>and they'd clock out or something like that. And that's what

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<v Speaker 3>it felt like like in the back room. Everybody was

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<v Speaker 3>just like a normal person. But the market we've created,

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<v Speaker 3>the market rewards people like hating each other, So there

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<v Speaker 3>is a huge market for people thinking.

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<v Speaker 1>But here's what I'll say about that market piece, and

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<v Speaker 1>then I want to transition to the article. I do

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<v Speaker 1>think that there was a time again, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>that that time is well pass gone. I think that

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<v Speaker 1>time was probably fifteen twenty years ago when there was

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<v Speaker 1>more camaraderie in terms of the industry around journalism and media.

0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:32.880
<v Speaker 1>And I think that what has happened is Fox News.

0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.320
<v Speaker 1>I think that what has happened is this decision, conscious

0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:41.480
<v Speaker 1>decision that Rupert Murdoch made that was just like they're

0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 1>the enemy, right, because I don't ever believe that Democrats

0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:48.920
<v Speaker 1>and you know, quote unquote, because I can't even call

0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.840
<v Speaker 1>MSNBC progressive media because it's not. But I think that

0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.080
<v Speaker 1>there was a time when mainstream media didn't see each

0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.280
<v Speaker 1>other as the enemy. It was Fox News that did

0:15:59.280 --> 0:16:02.160
<v Speaker 1>that and so so out of that spin, then you've

0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 1>created this US versus them mentality, and that's what feeds

0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>their audience, because what they don't want to feed their

0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.200
<v Speaker 1>audience is any semblance of the truth, which is that

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.920
<v Speaker 1>to the point of the article I'm about to bring up,

0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 1>is that we have more in common than they want

0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:22.040
<v Speaker 1>us to believe. Like, we have more in common and

0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.000
<v Speaker 1>want a lot of the same things, but it does

0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 1>not serve those in power. It does not serve the

0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.160
<v Speaker 1>one percent. It does not serve those systems to bring

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.120
<v Speaker 1>people together. There is more money and there is more

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 1>power for them in divisiveness, and that is what they

0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.840
<v Speaker 1>feed on, having turned our politics into a game of

0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:46.240
<v Speaker 1>sport as opposed to like a conversation around ideas. So

0:16:47.160 --> 0:16:51.400
<v Speaker 1>that being said, you, my friend, are featured mentioned in

0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.480
<v Speaker 1>a New York Times article that came out in the

0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:59.160
<v Speaker 1>Health section today entitled Surgeon General declares gun violence a

0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 1>public healthcre isis doctor Vivek Murthy is calling for a

0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:07.360
<v Speaker 1>multi pronged effort to reduce gun depths, modeled on campaigns

0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 1>against smoking and traffic fatalities.

0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:12.720
<v Speaker 2>So what he says here and.

0:17:12.640 --> 0:17:14.640
<v Speaker 1>Then I want to give you an opportunity to give

0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:20.160
<v Speaker 1>your points, Jonathan, But essentially the Surgeon General has said

0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.040
<v Speaker 1>this in the article quote, I've long believed this is

0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.080
<v Speaker 1>a public health issue. When talking about guns, this issue

0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 1>has been politicized, has been polarized over time. But I

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.119
<v Speaker 1>think when we understand that this is a public health issue,

0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 1>we have the opportunity to take it out of the

0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:38.239
<v Speaker 1>realm of politics and put it into the realm of

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.119
<v Speaker 1>public health. You disagree on this point. You've written a

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:46.280
<v Speaker 1>book right which we've talked about what We've Become, that

0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:52.080
<v Speaker 1>talks about reframing this very idea. So set up why

0:17:53.040 --> 0:17:56.679
<v Speaker 1>you disagree with this stance of guns being a public

0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:57.480
<v Speaker 1>health issue.

0:17:57.560 --> 0:17:59.960
<v Speaker 3>Well, thank you. First let me say I do think

0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.919
<v Speaker 3>think that by every sense of the word, guns do

0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:09.080
<v Speaker 3>represent a threat to life and well being and health

0:18:09.600 --> 0:18:13.040
<v Speaker 3>that needs public health intervention. So I'm not saying, oh,

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:15.040
<v Speaker 3>we should not do this. I think we should do

0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 3>this right, and there are important ways that calling it

0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:22.320
<v Speaker 3>a public health crisis brings research, and it brings authority,

0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:25.080
<v Speaker 3>and it brings all these ways that we can think

0:18:25.080 --> 0:18:29.119
<v Speaker 3>about addressing this. But for me, the framework really falls short.

0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.280
<v Speaker 3>That's the whole argument of my book. And I think

0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.920
<v Speaker 3>there are three main ways that I kind of go

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:36.359
<v Speaker 3>crazy when stuff like this happens. To be honest, not

0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:38.800
<v Speaker 3>again that I don't support it. I mean, if you

0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:42.240
<v Speaker 3>just look at gun related injuries and deaths, it's over

0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.879
<v Speaker 3>fifty thousand a year, which is a man made pathogen

0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:48.359
<v Speaker 3>killing that many people in this country and injuring many

0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.119
<v Speaker 3>many more. Is something we need to intervene into. But

0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.919
<v Speaker 3>there are I think three problems that I talk about

0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:58.680
<v Speaker 3>in the book. Number one is that we convinced America

0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:02.400
<v Speaker 3>that cigarette and faulty seat belts and all these things

0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:06.040
<v Speaker 3>were health risks that the prevention model would work in

0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.360
<v Speaker 3>that regard. And so, for example, if you go into

0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:12.399
<v Speaker 3>a into a restaurant anywhere in the country and somebody

0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.200
<v Speaker 3>lights up a cigarette, the whole restaurant's going to be like, no, dude,

0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:19.159
<v Speaker 3>you know. Second, if you get into a car and

0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:23.240
<v Speaker 3>somebody doesn't like click it or ticket or whatever, you're like, hey, man,

0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.200
<v Speaker 3>we're not driving until you put on that seat belt.

0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:29.120
<v Speaker 3>So we convince people of this, but we haven't done

0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.160
<v Speaker 3>that with guns. To understate greatly, I've interviewed so many

0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 3>gun owners, and they don't see guns as health risks.

0:19:36.040 --> 0:19:39.000
<v Speaker 3>We failed to convince them. They see guns as protection,

0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:43.520
<v Speaker 3>as protectors, protectors of their family. And that's for a

0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.320
<v Speaker 3>bunch of reasons. One is just decades of messaging from

0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:51.000
<v Speaker 3>the NRA, but also the racial history of the United States,

0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:55.479
<v Speaker 3>which coded gun ownership as a privilege of whiteness, and

0:19:55.520 --> 0:20:01.000
<v Speaker 3>so guns carry these different, very historical emotional symbols. And

0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 3>so for those reasons, gun owners the people who are

0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:08.120
<v Speaker 3>going to be impacted by any gun policy, not only

0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.120
<v Speaker 3>do they are not convinced by the prevention model, they

0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.600
<v Speaker 3>kind of feel exactly the opposite, that public health is

0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.280
<v Speaker 3>coming for their freedom and liberty, and so just calling

0:20:16.280 --> 0:20:20.240
<v Speaker 3>it a health frame it reinforces the stereotype that often

0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:23.480
<v Speaker 3>non gun owning liberals have, But it doesn't speak to

0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:26.920
<v Speaker 3>the people who are the people who're trying to convince

0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:29.159
<v Speaker 3>to kind of follow the rules that we're convincing. And

0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:30.720
<v Speaker 3>so part of the story for me is, if you

0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:34.639
<v Speaker 3>really want to address guns, you have to address what

0:20:34.720 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 3>it means to carry and own a gun. You have

0:20:36.920 --> 0:20:41.000
<v Speaker 3>to address the history of whiteness and relationship to gun ownership.

0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.199
<v Speaker 3>You have to do all these other factors. You have

0:20:43.280 --> 0:20:46.320
<v Speaker 3>to build out infrastructures and cities to make them safer.

0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:48.719
<v Speaker 3>And we've talked about two weeks ago here and so

0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:50.520
<v Speaker 3>in a way, just for me, the public health frame

0:20:50.640 --> 0:20:53.359
<v Speaker 3>is very limiting. It doesn't do any of those things.

0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.639
<v Speaker 3>And so a bunch of liberals, you know, like me,

0:20:56.920 --> 0:20:59.159
<v Speaker 3>cheer and say, finally the Surgeon General is doing a

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:02.280
<v Speaker 3>report on this. But it's important to recognize that that

0:21:02.520 --> 0:21:06.439
<v Speaker 3>convinces people very often who are already convinced and to

0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 3>really intervene here. Its guns are. They're a much bigger

0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:12.080
<v Speaker 3>problem than a public health from there a democracy problem,

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.920
<v Speaker 3>they're an electoral problem, they're a regional problem, a racial problem,

0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.520
<v Speaker 3>and public health just doesn't do any of those things.

0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.600
<v Speaker 1>When I hear the numbers kind of that were lifted

0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:29.439
<v Speaker 1>up in this reporting, which is that the rates of

0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.000
<v Speaker 1>firearm mortality for young people in America is nearly six

0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.720
<v Speaker 1>times the rate in Canada, nearly twenty three times the

0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:40.320
<v Speaker 1>rate in Australia, nearly seventy three times the rate in

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:44.480
<v Speaker 1>the United Kingdom. The Surgeon General's Advisory said that the

0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:50.199
<v Speaker 1>last decade we have seen that unintentional gunshot wounds in

0:21:50.240 --> 0:21:53.760
<v Speaker 1>the cases of children and adolescents, around three quarters of

0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.040
<v Speaker 1>the firearms used were not stored and locked. We know

0:21:57.119 --> 0:22:00.239
<v Speaker 1>that the CDC has come out and said recently that

0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.720
<v Speaker 1>gun deaths is the number one cause of deaths for

0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:08.040
<v Speaker 1>children in this country. So when the veach murthy, doctor

0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:13.320
<v Speaker 1>Murphy says we need a multi pronged approach, can the

0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:17.439
<v Speaker 1>public health peace be a part of that multi health

0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:21.240
<v Speaker 1>prong or are you saying that no, it can't be

0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:22.879
<v Speaker 1>a part of it. It shouldn't be a part of it

0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:27.040
<v Speaker 1>at all, because it doesn't have the range essentially to

0:22:27.119 --> 0:22:30.119
<v Speaker 1>be able to address the very important points that you

0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:30.639
<v Speaker 1>brought up.

0:22:31.480 --> 0:22:34.240
<v Speaker 3>Well, I of course think, of course there should be

0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.119
<v Speaker 3>a public health prong. Of course I went there to

0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:41.760
<v Speaker 3>be safety, and especially in the more preventable causes of

0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:43.960
<v Speaker 3>gun death like mass shootings are very hard to predict

0:22:44.040 --> 0:22:47.320
<v Speaker 3>and prevent, but like gun suicide, if somebody has a

0:22:47.440 --> 0:22:51.560
<v Speaker 3>gun available within fifty nine minutes of having a crisis,

0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.720
<v Speaker 3>the rates of gun suicide go up. Child shootings go

0:22:55.880 --> 0:22:58.800
<v Speaker 3>up if people don't lock their guns in safes, all

0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 3>these kinds of things. So there are many things that

0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.639
<v Speaker 3>I think public health is useful for. So it's not

0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:06.919
<v Speaker 3>like I'm anti public health, but I can say that

0:23:07.040 --> 0:23:11.680
<v Speaker 3>even if we had universal public health tomorrow, we would

0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:14.240
<v Speaker 3>still have many of the same problems that public health

0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:18.320
<v Speaker 3>does not address because guns are not just a health problem.

0:23:18.320 --> 0:23:20.560
<v Speaker 3>That's kind of the argument of my book that guns

0:23:20.640 --> 0:23:23.680
<v Speaker 3>really are a democracy problem. And I say that because

0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:29.160
<v Speaker 3>the NA has used the gun issue to seat lifetime judges,

0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, thirty five year old judges who have never

0:23:31.359 --> 0:23:34.720
<v Speaker 3>heard a case in some of these appellate courts. They

0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:38.639
<v Speaker 3>use the gun issue to hijack our democracy. And so

0:23:39.320 --> 0:23:44.840
<v Speaker 3>while we were rallying importantly for public opinion shifting around

0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:48.639
<v Speaker 3>public health, the NRA was using the gun issue for

0:23:48.760 --> 0:23:52.439
<v Speaker 3>a totally different agenda, which was anti democracy. And so

0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:55.600
<v Speaker 3>while we were rallying to get to this point about

0:23:55.640 --> 0:24:00.040
<v Speaker 3>public health, their strategy was using the gun issue to

0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:04.520
<v Speaker 3>eat judges, to overturn elections, to overturn the will of

0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:06.960
<v Speaker 3>New York voters, and the Bruin case and the rule

0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:11.040
<v Speaker 3>of you know ore again. Virginia, Ohio, there's a long

0:24:11.080 --> 0:24:15.480
<v Speaker 3>list of voters want things in place about gun safety.

0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.520
<v Speaker 3>But because these judges are radicalized, they're overturning not just

0:24:19.600 --> 0:24:24.119
<v Speaker 3>gun laws, they're overturning women's reproductive rights and germandering and

0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.600
<v Speaker 3>voting and all these things. So guns were a tool

0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:31.280
<v Speaker 3>that was about power for the right, and the public

0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:34.639
<v Speaker 3>health model was like, let's just all get together and

0:24:34.720 --> 0:24:37.240
<v Speaker 3>save some lives, and that's great. I'm one hundred percent

0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:39.520
<v Speaker 3>before that. We have way too much gun injury and death.

0:24:40.040 --> 0:24:43.120
<v Speaker 3>But if you don't see the bigger agenda of what's happening,

0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:45.800
<v Speaker 3>you could have a warning on every gun in America

0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:48.199
<v Speaker 3>and you'd still have the bigger problem, which is that

0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:52.280
<v Speaker 3>while we were marching about gun safety, the other side

0:24:52.359 --> 0:24:56.760
<v Speaker 3>was using the gun issue to seat judges across the

0:24:56.800 --> 0:25:00.080
<v Speaker 3>country and Supreme Court judges and all these things. So

0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:02.560
<v Speaker 3>for me, the public health frame just doesn't go far enough,

0:25:02.560 --> 0:25:04.679
<v Speaker 3>and we have to as we embrace public help. I

0:25:04.720 --> 0:25:08.840
<v Speaker 3>just think we have to recognize the limitations because you're right,

0:25:08.880 --> 0:25:12.600
<v Speaker 3>all that data about us versus the world, it's unconsortable.

0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:17.880
<v Speaker 3>But it's also true that it's injury and death data

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:20.240
<v Speaker 3>will not show you the bigger real problem for me

0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:22.639
<v Speaker 3>about guns, which is about, you know, you want to

0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:26.280
<v Speaker 3>understand what gun politics lead to. Read Project twenty twenty five.

0:25:26.520 --> 0:25:30.040
<v Speaker 3>That's that agenda. Read what people are saying about if

0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.119
<v Speaker 3>Trump loses the election, what they're going to do, all

0:25:32.160 --> 0:25:35.120
<v Speaker 3>these kind of things. Guns are not just a health problem,

0:25:35.160 --> 0:25:37.439
<v Speaker 3>They're a democracy problem. And to me, that's kind of

0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:38.880
<v Speaker 3>what all my research points toward.

0:25:39.320 --> 0:25:41.960
<v Speaker 1>Does that make sense, Yeah, no, it makes total sense.

0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:45.600
<v Speaker 1>And I think that where my cynicism lies is that

0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:52.840
<v Speaker 1>I am no longer believing that people can be convinced

0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:56.479
<v Speaker 1>that guns are a real issue in this country. Like

0:25:56.560 --> 0:26:02.520
<v Speaker 1>I think that those of us who have won to serious, necessary,

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:08.120
<v Speaker 1>aggressive gun reforms have just been met with a multi

0:26:08.160 --> 0:26:11.879
<v Speaker 1>billion dollar gun lobby, have been met with politicians that

0:26:11.960 --> 0:26:14.919
<v Speaker 1>we know are bought and paid for with their A

0:26:15.119 --> 0:26:19.520
<v Speaker 1>plus plus ratings from the NRA, And so I don't

0:26:19.560 --> 0:26:24.680
<v Speaker 1>necessarily believe that any convincing of the population which their

0:26:25.200 --> 0:26:28.600
<v Speaker 1>positions and their desire to see change is not going

0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:33.080
<v Speaker 1>to happen with politicians who's gerrymandered districts and a lobby

0:26:33.240 --> 0:26:36.080
<v Speaker 1>that has bought the federal bench. So I'm just like,

0:26:36.680 --> 0:26:40.320
<v Speaker 1>meet my cynicism with possibility right now, I guess is

0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:43.320
<v Speaker 1>the point is what I'm gonna ask Jonathan, because I

0:26:43.359 --> 0:26:44.040
<v Speaker 1>don't see it.

0:26:44.720 --> 0:26:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Can you meet it with passive? Well, it's like really quiet.

0:26:49.320 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 2>Everybody just never happened, you know.

0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:56.080
<v Speaker 3>Again, We've talked about this a lot. I think that

0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:59.000
<v Speaker 3>in a way we just didn't see what we were

0:26:59.080 --> 0:27:01.320
<v Speaker 3>up against in a way, in a way, public health

0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.640
<v Speaker 3>immediately jumped into the fore when nobody else did, which

0:27:04.680 --> 0:27:08.040
<v Speaker 3>is super super important, but it just it wasn't the

0:27:08.119 --> 0:27:10.800
<v Speaker 3>answer to the threat we were facing, right, which is

0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:15.480
<v Speaker 3>that the right recognized that for two centuries in this country,

0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:18.280
<v Speaker 3>only white men could carry guns, and that that was

0:27:18.320 --> 0:27:20.960
<v Speaker 3>a symbol of a right given to white men that

0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:23.639
<v Speaker 3>wasn't given to other people, and carrying a gun in

0:27:23.680 --> 0:27:26.480
<v Speaker 3>public meant whiteness.

0:27:26.000 --> 0:27:26.400
<v Speaker 1>In a way.

0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:30.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, from pre colonial America on down, that white

0:27:31.000 --> 0:27:35.640
<v Speaker 3>men could carry guns to suppress Native or Indian uprisings,

0:27:36.440 --> 0:27:38.960
<v Speaker 3>then slaves running away and all these kind of things.

0:27:39.840 --> 0:27:44.080
<v Speaker 3>The clan rode the night ride night night writers were

0:27:44.080 --> 0:27:48.440
<v Speaker 3>trying to disarm black people who had guns. Black codes

0:27:48.440 --> 0:27:51.520
<v Speaker 3>across the South. So there's a long history of what

0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:54.480
<v Speaker 3>it means to own and carry a gun, which ain't

0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:59.200
<v Speaker 3>about health. It's about power and privilege. And so yes,

0:27:59.320 --> 0:28:02.560
<v Speaker 3>guns are killing and entering way, way, way too many people,

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:06.520
<v Speaker 3>but guns symbolize power for a lot of people, and

0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:10.080
<v Speaker 3>so calling it a public health problem is not going

0:28:10.160 --> 0:28:14.640
<v Speaker 3>to convince people if it's not also tied to electoral

0:28:14.720 --> 0:28:19.919
<v Speaker 3>reform and judge reform and anti jerimandering efforts and all

0:28:19.960 --> 0:28:22.359
<v Speaker 3>these things. And I guess I'm saying this because the

0:28:22.520 --> 0:28:25.240
<v Speaker 3>right recognized this. They recognize that they had like the

0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:28.720
<v Speaker 3>perfect symbol of what it meant to be a white man.

0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:30.600
<v Speaker 3>You know, nobody's going to take this away. The government's

0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:32.440
<v Speaker 3>not going to take this away, and they have amplified

0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:35.800
<v Speaker 3>this for decades now. And is calling it a public

0:28:35.800 --> 0:28:38.080
<v Speaker 3>health problem going to address that? Or is it going

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:42.480
<v Speaker 3>to convince the people who are already convinced and marginalize

0:28:42.480 --> 0:28:44.400
<v Speaker 3>the people who are who don't agree with it. And

0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 3>so the question is, I don't know for me that

0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:50.479
<v Speaker 3>polarization is the is the bigger problem. I'm not you know,

0:28:50.680 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 3>in the book, as you know, I talk about a

0:28:52.320 --> 0:28:55.520
<v Speaker 3>lot of ways I think we can address this that

0:28:55.600 --> 0:28:58.880
<v Speaker 3>aren't linked to public health, right making communities safer, creating

0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:03.280
<v Speaker 3>job and green programs, and all these kind of things,

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:05.240
<v Speaker 3>like looking at the ways in which we can actually

0:29:05.280 --> 0:29:08.600
<v Speaker 3>make public space safer. That's always my answer. I'm a structuralist.

0:29:09.120 --> 0:29:11.920
<v Speaker 3>But you know, again, I hope this does good. I

0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:15.239
<v Speaker 3>really do hope this does good. I'm not rooting against it.

0:29:15.320 --> 0:29:17.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm just saying that I have a whole book of

0:29:18.120 --> 0:29:23.080
<v Speaker 3>counter argument evidence, which is not an answer to what

0:29:23.080 --> 0:29:24.640
<v Speaker 3>you're saying. But I just think that if we don't

0:29:24.680 --> 0:29:27.280
<v Speaker 3>address these bigger issues, we're going to just keep being

0:29:27.360 --> 0:29:29.000
<v Speaker 3>in the same feedback.

0:29:28.560 --> 0:29:31.200
<v Speaker 1>Lop And I guess that that's where the cynicism is,

0:29:31.200 --> 0:29:33.760
<v Speaker 1>and that's where like the frustration, you know, it's like

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:38.760
<v Speaker 1>my anger, my rage vacillates to cynicism, and like not apathy,

0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:42.600
<v Speaker 1>but just a lack of possibility that we are going

0:29:42.640 --> 0:29:45.360
<v Speaker 1>to see anything change in our lifetimes. I mean, when

0:29:45.400 --> 0:29:51.360
<v Speaker 1>you see a classroom of children, kindergarteners whose names were

0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:55.160
<v Speaker 1>just read out recently at the high school graduation that

0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:59.480
<v Speaker 1>the Newtown children should have been at, but we're murdered

0:29:59.760 --> 0:30:03.280
<v Speaker 1>in classroom and there's no change that happens in this country,

0:30:03.600 --> 0:30:06.760
<v Speaker 1>then like I feel like we've just lost right. And

0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:09.520
<v Speaker 1>I think then that's why so many people will then

0:30:09.560 --> 0:30:11.960
<v Speaker 1>turn around, they will pick up their own guns and

0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:14.080
<v Speaker 1>be like, well fuck it. If I can't beat them,

0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:17.000
<v Speaker 1>we can't beat sent into them. We can't show them

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:19.200
<v Speaker 1>the you know, And maybe we just should have begged

0:30:19.240 --> 0:30:23.240
<v Speaker 1>those parents to show the bodies of their children, as

0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:26.320
<v Speaker 1>mam Ma Atill did with em at Till's body, right, Like,

0:30:26.440 --> 0:30:29.640
<v Speaker 1>maybe that's what we need because otherwise, you know, you

0:30:29.800 --> 0:30:33.400
<v Speaker 1>have the right calling folks crisis actors and just you know,

0:30:33.480 --> 0:30:36.200
<v Speaker 1>disregarding the lives of our children.

0:30:36.480 --> 0:30:38.200
<v Speaker 3>Well, but also, let me just say that you need

0:30:38.240 --> 0:30:40.760
<v Speaker 3>a long term strategy, right In other words, people, you

0:30:40.800 --> 0:30:42.800
<v Speaker 3>need a long term strategy. If calling this a public

0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:48.000
<v Speaker 3>health crisis more will lead to judges, honestly will it'll

0:30:48.080 --> 0:30:50.880
<v Speaker 3>lead to judges. If it's enough of a wedge issue

0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:53.360
<v Speaker 3>that it'll lead to that, then there is a long

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.960
<v Speaker 3>term strategy, right if exposing the violence, like you're saying,

0:30:57.240 --> 0:30:59.560
<v Speaker 3>we'll do this. But I just think the problem is

0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:02.680
<v Speaker 3>people act like public health is common sense, and that

0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:05.240
<v Speaker 3>is not the case for me. I think if it's

0:31:05.240 --> 0:31:08.320
<v Speaker 3>not tied to a long term strategy in the American

0:31:08.680 --> 0:31:12.760
<v Speaker 3>zero sum political situation, it's just got to lead to

0:31:13.720 --> 0:31:16.280
<v Speaker 3>reproducing the problems and so if public health is tied

0:31:16.320 --> 0:31:20.040
<v Speaker 3>to electoral format, anti gearmandering and all this kind of thing.

0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:21.400
<v Speaker 3>But the issue for me is when I talk to

0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:23.320
<v Speaker 3>public health people a lot of times I'm like, oh, no,

0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:26.360
<v Speaker 3>that's politics. We're a political and I'm like, dude, this

0:31:26.400 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 3>is a political issue, and so it's got to be

0:31:29.880 --> 0:31:32.920
<v Speaker 3>you know, if this leads to more political engagement that

0:31:33.120 --> 0:31:37.000
<v Speaker 3>is about the judiciary, then count me in one hundred percent.

0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:40.360
<v Speaker 3>It's more just when people start calling public health common sense,

0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:42.800
<v Speaker 3>that's I think we're being into trouble because it's not

0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:47.360
<v Speaker 3>common sense for the people you're trying to convince to

0:31:47.440 --> 0:31:48.640
<v Speaker 3>follow your rules.

0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.600
<v Speaker 1>All right, my friend, we will leave it there today

0:31:52.000 --> 0:31:54.040
<v Speaker 1>and pick it up again next week.

0:31:54.200 --> 0:31:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Always always appreciate.

0:31:55.920 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 3>Week as a restaurant and movie week.

0:31:57.760 --> 0:32:02.200
<v Speaker 1>So it's going to be a bunch of sad documentaries.

0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:05.440
<v Speaker 1>All right, Appreciate you, my friend.

0:32:05.840 --> 0:32:08.960
<v Speaker 3>Bye, everybody.

0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:12.680
<v Speaker 2>That is it for me today.

0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:16.880
<v Speaker 1>Dear friends on Woke af as always, Power to the

0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:18.880
<v Speaker 1>people and to all the people.

0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.