1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: Folks, I'm coming to you. 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: Today from a place of struggle, from a place of 5 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: feeling complicit in the compartmentalization that we do as citizens 6 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: of this country, where we acquiesce to the little that 7 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: we get from our government and justify the wrongs that 8 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,720 Speaker 1: are committed in our name or committed truly in the 9 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,959 Speaker 1: name of capitalism, greed, and patriarchy. But we do so, 10 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: and then we tell ourselves. I feel that at well, 11 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: change takes time. Change is slow, justice is slow. The 12 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: arc is long, but it bends towards justice. Is everyone's 13 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: favorite quote from Martin Luther King Junior. And today I 14 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: don't know. I am speaking to you as I prepare 15 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: to head to Washington, DC to attend a Pride event 16 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: at the White House, and I was trying to decide 17 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: whether or not I was going to share publicly that 18 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: I was going to attend the Pride event at the 19 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: White House. And then I realize that if I'm keeping 20 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: it a secret, or I'm just not sharing it in 21 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: the way that I share most of things that I 22 00:01:46,640 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: do around work, then that means something deeper. I woke 23 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: up this morning and was really wondering whether or not 24 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: I was going to go. And there are so many reasons. 25 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 1: There were so many reasons that I talk about on 26 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: this show. But when I received the news that Representative 27 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: Jamal Bowman lost his primary race to APAC, backed basically 28 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: of Republican Light George Latimer, who was endorsed by Hillary 29 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 1: Clinton among other Establishment Democrats, is pro Israel, which means 30 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: to me, your pro genocide. I was disgusted because this 31 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: is what special interest groups with a lot of fucking 32 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: money and a lot of fucking power do. They thwart 33 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 1: the will of the people in order to advance their 34 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 1: own interests. That race had nothing to do with the 35 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: district that Bowman has been representing. It had nothing to 36 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: do with the people in that district. It had everything 37 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 1: to do with using power and influence to silence those 38 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: that you don't agree with on an issue that honestly 39 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 1: everyone should agree on. Humanity right, how we navigate war, right, 40 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: the rules of a fucking engagement. But APAC, along with 41 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: establishment Democrats, sent a powerful message through Bowman's loss, which 42 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: is shut up and get in line, and if you don't, 43 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: we will dispose of you. And so I struggle with 44 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: going to a pride event at the White House while 45 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: children are starving, while an entire group of people, millions 46 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: of people have been run off their land, blown up, beaten, 47 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,760 Speaker 1: raped and tortured, all in the name of security and safety. 48 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: And I posted on social media that you are never 49 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: going to convince me that any of those acts are 50 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 1: about securing safety for any one group of people. And 51 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: so I have very little pride in this moment. And 52 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: I reached out to a friend of mine who was 53 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 1: running down all of the things that the Biden administration 54 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: has done for the queer community, the inclusion of queer 55 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: kids in Title nine, the protections that Biden is trying 56 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,559 Speaker 1: to put forward, all of which frankly, can be rolled 57 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 1: back right like as soon as Donald Trump would assume 58 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: the White House, all of these executive orders, all of 59 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: these advancements are gone. And so what does it mean 60 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: to have pride in this moment? I really don't know. 61 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: I know that my initial reason for wanting to attend 62 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: the White House Pride event was because, in my heart, folks, 63 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: I honestly believe that this may be the last one, 64 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: and I want I wanted to experience the White House 65 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: with my friends, with my community for potentially the last time. 66 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: And I feel selfish in wanting to do that. I 67 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: feel complicit in the violence, in the greed, in the 68 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: dehumanization that is happening. But honestly, I just I find 69 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: myself today at a loss. 70 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: We are waiting. 71 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: By the time that you listen to this, the Supreme 72 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: Court could have decided that Donald Trump is immune and 73 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: presidents are immune from persecution for crimes committed while in office. 74 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,559 Speaker 1: They're taking up a case that they will hear whether 75 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: or not trans youth and trans people should receive the 76 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: medical treatment that they need to live full and complete lives. 77 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:57,840 Speaker 1: If your life has never been on the line, if 78 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: you have never waited with anxiousness and dread as a 79 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: group of unelected black robes decide whether or not you 80 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: are worthy, you are part of a privileged class. I 81 00:06:10,920 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: just feel like everything around us is crumbling so quickly. 82 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: It's like trying to hold water in your hands, and 83 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: everything is just seeping through the cracks everywhere. Power, privilege, 84 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: and whiteness are winning. And so what does it mean 85 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: to just want to pretend for two hours that we 86 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: are safe, that we are okay, that we have the 87 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: means to ride out this dark tempest that we're in. 88 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: I don't feel celebratory. I don't feel hopeful. And I 89 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: know that my ancestors experienced far fucking worse, and there 90 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: are people alive right now that are experiencing the unimaginable. 91 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: So what do we do? 92 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know. 93 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:21,920 Speaker 1: We are set to celebrate as a country our independence. 94 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: It seems laughable, it seems ridiculous. But do we continue 95 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 1: to celebrate small incremental victories, small incremental change moments while 96 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: continuing to toil for the greater good? But if this moment, 97 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: if this primary loss by Bowmen is foreshadowing, this is 98 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: why Biden is making the decisions that he's making. They 99 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:03,320 Speaker 1: spend twenty million dollars to oust a progressive black man 100 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: from office, They'll spend billions to do that for the presidency. 101 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: And so the politics, the dark, fucking evil politics that 102 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 1: are at play, it's just a lot. And it's like, 103 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,280 Speaker 1: do we allow this administration to continue the political maneuvering 104 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: that they're doing because they know that a pack and 105 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: other APAC backed organizations and foundations and super wealthy billionaires 106 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: will oust him. Because at the end of the day, folks, 107 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: Joe Biden's going to be fine, right, He's a wealthy, 108 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,239 Speaker 1: white powerful man in America. If he doesn't regain the presidency, 109 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 1: he'll be fine. 110 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,280 Speaker 2: He'll live out his you know, sunset years. 111 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,400 Speaker 1: Okay, it is the rest of us, and it is 112 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 1: the horrendous non choices that we are really being dealt. 113 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 1: It is hard, hard pills to swallow when you recognize 114 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: that you are backed into a corner and the only 115 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:21,359 Speaker 1: way to get out is to fight our way out 116 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: with everything that we have. Because these people, their pockets 117 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: are bottomless, their lies are endless, their power and reach 118 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: no no bounds. All we have left is the community 119 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: that we built, that we continue to nurture and lift 120 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: up and push forward. 121 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: So today I. 122 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: Am headed to the White House to remind myself in 123 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: many ways what is at stake, and to try and 124 00:09:54,320 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 1: get the courage, the faith, the resilience to continue pushing forward. 125 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: The months ahead just feel so insurmountable, but it is 126 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: always impossible until it is done. Coming up next, my 127 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: conversation with our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel. 128 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: We talk about a recent piece that was written by 129 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: the Surgeon General on naming gun violence in this country 130 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: is a public health issue, which is exactly what Jonathan's book, 131 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: whose latest book, What We've Become, is all about, is 132 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,480 Speaker 1: how we need to reframe and how public health may 133 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: not be the framing that is needed. That conversation is 134 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,880 Speaker 1: coming up next, folks. You know that whenever we have 135 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: the opportunity to sit down with our in house doctor, 136 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: doctor Jonathan Metzl, we are always always thrilled and honored. 137 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: And I will say, dear friends, I know Jonathan lied 138 00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: to you last week when he said that this week 139 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: we were to talk about rainbows, puppies and sprinkles, But 140 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: unfortunately wrong country for that. We're not in Finland, Norway 141 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: or someplace else that seems nice and safe. 142 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 3: Let me say one thing about this. I appreciate that. 143 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 3: You know. It's funny because like I'm in New York 144 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 3: for the summer and I have all these Fox News 145 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 3: watching friends or people I know in Tennessee or something 146 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 3: like that, and when they're here I'm in New York, 147 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 3: They're like, oh my god, you know you people must 148 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 3: be having tires burning in the streets and like you 149 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 3: must be at the barricades every day or something like that. 150 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: And so I do think there's a rule for like 151 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 3: cheerful conversation. And I've been tweeting. Actually I've been walking 152 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 3: on New York and like take like, I walk down 153 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 3: my block the other day and there was there's this 154 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 3: thing called like Opera in the Streets or something, and 155 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 3: they had a stoop. They had a concert on the 156 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 3: stoop where they were like these beautifully it's just incredible 157 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 3: opera voices, singing arias, and like everybody was out there 158 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,680 Speaker 3: with like their kids and their families. And then I 159 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 3: walked another block away and there was a steel drum concert. 160 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 3: They were doing like all these covers on steel drum 161 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 3: and everybody was dancing. So I've been tweeting like here's 162 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:16,839 Speaker 3: what Fox News doesn't show you. It's just like how 163 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 3: great it is here is there? 164 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like and I appreciate that you do 165 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: that because anytime that I see somebody like tweet something, 166 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you're saying that these are you like your friends. 167 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 1: But I'm like, anytime that I have somebody that tweets 168 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: that I see that tweets something stupid about New York. 169 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 1: I always tweet like a picture like from where I am, 170 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 1: like if it's at the park, or if it's like 171 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: walking and passing like eighty seven strollers like on you know, 172 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:44,439 Speaker 1: like it's just it's so I'm like, I'm I would 173 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: be more terrified to spend the summer in Tennessee and 174 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: I would ever be to spend the summer in New York. 175 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: It kind of works because I remember we talked about 176 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 3: this with Tennessee, and like in Tennessee there's like I 177 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: have friends who DJ'ed Bonnerou last week and there's like 178 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 3: a fun concert happening tonight, and like it's just funny. 179 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,679 Speaker 3: How like we lived through these stereotypes which make us 180 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 3: like yeah, fear each other, and it's so manipulated. I mean, 181 00:13:08,040 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 3: I can't say this too much, but I know some 182 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 3: people at one of the very conservative media outlets, and 183 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 3: I know them like socially. I mean, I don't know 184 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 3: that like we're not friends or anything. But we were 185 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 3: out of reception a couple of weeks ago with some 186 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: of the Fox News hosts, Oh my god, and they 187 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 3: were like yacking it up and everybody was like getting 188 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: along and stuff like that, and then it was in Chelsea. 189 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,719 Speaker 3: Everybody went out with like everybody's strollers, like acuge group, 190 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: people went for dinner, went for drinks, and then the 191 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 3: next day they were on Fox News saying it's a 192 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:48,959 Speaker 3: hell hole. I'm afraid to like walk outside my door. 193 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 2: Like let me tell you something. 194 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 1: You are better than me because I cannot break bread 195 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: with thine enemy like that. That is not a part 196 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: of my personal wook of religion. 197 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,319 Speaker 3: I cannot do it and stuff like it's funny. There 198 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 3: used to be this thing called Politicon. It was this yeah, 199 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 3: and it was great. I used to love speaking at 200 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: that thing. I don't think they do in person anymore, 201 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 3: but it was my favorite thing because like you'd be 202 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 3: on stage with like every wacket doodle in the world. 203 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: And the funny thing was like there was a panel. 204 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 3: We did a gun panel, and there was another panel 205 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 3: on healthcare or somebody else or something like that. And 206 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 3: if you go in the green room at Politicon, like, oh, 207 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 3: there's you know, I'm just making this up, but I 208 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 3: mean and culture yaking it up with like the MSNBC 209 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 3: host and Joy Read is like talking to like Sean Hannity, 210 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 3: like it just kind of felt like in the back 211 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: and there used to be this cartoon on the like bugs, 212 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 3: funny kind of cartoon where like the member, the sheep, 213 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 3: dog and the wolf would like they'd like get to 214 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 3: work in the morning. They'd be like, hey, Sam, how 215 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 3: are the kids? And then they'd clock in and they'd 216 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 3: beat the crap out of each other for eight hours 217 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 3: and they'd clock out or something like that. And that's what 218 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 3: it felt like like in the back room. Everybody was 219 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 3: just like a normal person. But the market we've created, 220 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 3: the market rewards people like hating each other, So there 221 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: is a huge market for people thinking. 222 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: But here's what I'll say about that market piece, and 223 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: then I want to transition to the article. I do 224 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: think that there was a time again, and I think 225 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: that that time is well pass gone. I think that 226 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: time was probably fifteen twenty years ago when there was 227 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: more camaraderie in terms of the industry around journalism and media. 228 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: And I think that what has happened is Fox News. 229 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: I think that what has happened is this decision, conscious 230 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: decision that Rupert Murdoch made that was just like they're 231 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: the enemy, right, because I don't ever believe that Democrats 232 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: and you know, quote unquote, because I can't even call 233 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,840 Speaker 1: MSNBC progressive media because it's not. But I think that 234 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: there was a time when mainstream media didn't see each 235 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: other as the enemy. It was Fox News that did 236 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: that and so so out of that spin, then you've 237 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 1: created this US versus them mentality, and that's what feeds 238 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: their audience, because what they don't want to feed their 239 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: audience is any semblance of the truth, which is that 240 00:16:11,680 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: to the point of the article I'm about to bring up, 241 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: is that we have more in common than they want 242 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: us to believe. Like, we have more in common and 243 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: want a lot of the same things, but it does 244 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: not serve those in power. It does not serve the 245 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: one percent. It does not serve those systems to bring 246 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 1: people together. There is more money and there is more 247 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: power for them in divisiveness, and that is what they 248 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: feed on, having turned our politics into a game of 249 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: sport as opposed to like a conversation around ideas. So 250 00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: that being said, you, my friend, are featured mentioned in 251 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: a New York Times article that came out in the 252 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: Health section today entitled Surgeon General declares gun violence a 253 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: public healthcre isis doctor Vivek Murthy is calling for a 254 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: multi pronged effort to reduce gun depths, modeled on campaigns 255 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: against smoking and traffic fatalities. 256 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 2: So what he says here and. 257 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,640 Speaker 1: Then I want to give you an opportunity to give 258 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: your points, Jonathan, But essentially the Surgeon General has said 259 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: this in the article quote, I've long believed this is 260 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: a public health issue. When talking about guns, this issue 261 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: has been politicized, has been polarized over time. But I 262 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 1: think when we understand that this is a public health issue, 263 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: we have the opportunity to take it out of the 264 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 1: realm of politics and put it into the realm of 265 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: public health. You disagree on this point. You've written a 266 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: book right which we've talked about what We've Become, that 267 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: talks about reframing this very idea. So set up why 268 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,679 Speaker 1: you disagree with this stance of guns being a public 269 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: health issue. 270 00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 3: Well, thank you. First let me say I do think 271 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 3: think that by every sense of the word, guns do 272 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 3: represent a threat to life and well being and health 273 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: that needs public health intervention. So I'm not saying, oh, 274 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 3: we should not do this. I think we should do 275 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: this right, and there are important ways that calling it 276 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: a public health crisis brings research, and it brings authority, 277 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 3: and it brings all these ways that we can think 278 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 3: about addressing this. But for me, the framework really falls short. 279 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 3: That's the whole argument of my book. And I think 280 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: there are three main ways that I kind of go 281 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 3: crazy when stuff like this happens. To be honest, not 282 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 3: again that I don't support it. I mean, if you 283 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 3: just look at gun related injuries and deaths, it's over 284 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 3: fifty thousand a year, which is a man made pathogen 285 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 3: killing that many people in this country and injuring many 286 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,119 Speaker 3: many more. Is something we need to intervene into. But 287 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 3: there are I think three problems that I talk about 288 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 3: in the book. Number one is that we convinced America 289 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,400 Speaker 3: that cigarette and faulty seat belts and all these things 290 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 3: were health risks that the prevention model would work in 291 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,360 Speaker 3: that regard. And so, for example, if you go into 292 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,399 Speaker 3: a into a restaurant anywhere in the country and somebody 293 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,200 Speaker 3: lights up a cigarette, the whole restaurant's going to be like, no, dude, 294 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 3: you know. Second, if you get into a car and 295 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: somebody doesn't like click it or ticket or whatever, you're like, hey, man, 296 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 3: we're not driving until you put on that seat belt. 297 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,120 Speaker 3: So we convince people of this, but we haven't done 298 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,160 Speaker 3: that with guns. To understate greatly, I've interviewed so many 299 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: gun owners, and they don't see guns as health risks. 300 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 3: We failed to convince them. They see guns as protection, 301 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 3: as protectors, protectors of their family. And that's for a 302 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 3: bunch of reasons. One is just decades of messaging from 303 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 3: the NRA, but also the racial history of the United States, 304 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:55,479 Speaker 3: which coded gun ownership as a privilege of whiteness, and 305 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 3: so guns carry these different, very historical emotional symbols. And 306 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 3: so for those reasons, gun owners the people who are 307 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,120 Speaker 3: going to be impacted by any gun policy, not only 308 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 3: do they are not convinced by the prevention model, they 309 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 3: kind of feel exactly the opposite, that public health is 310 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 3: coming for their freedom and liberty, and so just calling 311 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 3: it a health frame it reinforces the stereotype that often 312 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 3: non gun owning liberals have, But it doesn't speak to 313 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 3: the people who are the people who're trying to convince 314 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 3: to kind of follow the rules that we're convincing. And 315 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 3: so part of the story for me is, if you 316 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 3: really want to address guns, you have to address what 317 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: it means to carry and own a gun. You have 318 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 3: to address the history of whiteness and relationship to gun ownership. 319 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 3: You have to do all these other factors. You have 320 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 3: to build out infrastructures and cities to make them safer. 321 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:48,719 Speaker 3: And we've talked about two weeks ago here and so 322 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 3: in a way, just for me, the public health frame 323 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 3: is very limiting. It doesn't do any of those things. 324 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: And so a bunch of liberals, you know, like me, 325 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 3: cheer and say, finally the Surgeon General is doing a 326 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 3: report on this. But it's important to recognize that that 327 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 3: convinces people very often who are already convinced and to 328 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 3: really intervene here. Its guns are. They're a much bigger 329 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 3: problem than a public health from there a democracy problem, 330 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,920 Speaker 3: they're an electoral problem, they're a regional problem, a racial problem, 331 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 3: and public health just doesn't do any of those things. 332 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: When I hear the numbers kind of that were lifted 333 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,439 Speaker 1: up in this reporting, which is that the rates of 334 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 1: firearm mortality for young people in America is nearly six 335 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: times the rate in Canada, nearly twenty three times the 336 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: rate in Australia, nearly seventy three times the rate in 337 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: the United Kingdom. The Surgeon General's Advisory said that the 338 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 1: last decade we have seen that unintentional gunshot wounds in 339 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: the cases of children and adolescents, around three quarters of 340 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: the firearms used were not stored and locked. We know 341 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,239 Speaker 1: that the CDC has come out and said recently that 342 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: gun deaths is the number one cause of deaths for 343 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: children in this country. So when the veach murthy, doctor 344 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 1: Murphy says we need a multi pronged approach, can the 345 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 1: public health peace be a part of that multi health 346 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: prong or are you saying that no, it can't be 347 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 1: a part of it. It shouldn't be a part of it 348 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: at all, because it doesn't have the range essentially to 349 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:30,119 Speaker 1: be able to address the very important points that you 350 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 1: brought up. 351 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 3: Well, I of course think, of course there should be 352 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 3: a public health prong. Of course I went there to 353 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 3: be safety, and especially in the more preventable causes of 354 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 3: gun death like mass shootings are very hard to predict 355 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 3: and prevent, but like gun suicide, if somebody has a 356 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 3: gun available within fifty nine minutes of having a crisis, 357 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 3: the rates of gun suicide go up. Child shootings go 358 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 3: up if people don't lock their guns in safes, all 359 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 3: these kinds of things. So there are many things that 360 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 3: I think public health is useful for. So it's not 361 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:06,919 Speaker 3: like I'm anti public health, but I can say that 362 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: even if we had universal public health tomorrow, we would 363 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 3: still have many of the same problems that public health 364 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 3: does not address because guns are not just a health problem. 365 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: That's kind of the argument of my book that guns 366 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,680 Speaker 3: really are a democracy problem. And I say that because 367 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 3: the NA has used the gun issue to seat lifetime judges, 368 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,320 Speaker 3: you know, thirty five year old judges who have never 369 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 3: heard a case in some of these appellate courts. They 370 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 3: use the gun issue to hijack our democracy. And so 371 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 3: while we were rallying importantly for public opinion shifting around 372 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 3: public health, the NRA was using the gun issue for 373 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:52,439 Speaker 3: a totally different agenda, which was anti democracy. And so 374 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 3: while we were rallying to get to this point about 375 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 3: public health, their strategy was using the gun issue to 376 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: eat judges, to overturn elections, to overturn the will of 377 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,960 Speaker 3: New York voters, and the Bruin case and the rule 378 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 3: of you know ore again. Virginia, Ohio, there's a long 379 00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 3: list of voters want things in place about gun safety. 380 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 3: But because these judges are radicalized, they're overturning not just 381 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 3: gun laws, they're overturning women's reproductive rights and germandering and 382 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 3: voting and all these things. So guns were a tool 383 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 3: that was about power for the right, and the public 384 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,639 Speaker 3: health model was like, let's just all get together and 385 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 3: save some lives, and that's great. I'm one hundred percent 386 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 3: before that. We have way too much gun injury and death. 387 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 3: But if you don't see the bigger agenda of what's happening, 388 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 3: you could have a warning on every gun in America 389 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 3: and you'd still have the bigger problem, which is that 390 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 3: while we were marching about gun safety, the other side 391 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 3: was using the gun issue to seat judges across the 392 00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 3: country and Supreme Court judges and all these things. So 393 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 3: for me, the public health frame just doesn't go far enough, 394 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 3: and we have to as we embrace public help. I 395 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 3: just think we have to recognize the limitations because you're right, 396 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 3: all that data about us versus the world, it's unconsortable. 397 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 3: But it's also true that it's injury and death data 398 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 3: will not show you the bigger real problem for me 399 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 3: about guns, which is about, you know, you want to 400 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 3: understand what gun politics lead to. Read Project twenty twenty five. 401 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 3: That's that agenda. Read what people are saying about if 402 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 3: Trump loses the election, what they're going to do, all 403 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 3: these kind of things. Guns are not just a health problem, 404 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 3: They're a democracy problem. And to me, that's kind of 405 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 3: what all my research points toward. 406 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: Does that make sense, Yeah, no, it makes total sense. 407 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: And I think that where my cynicism lies is that 408 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: I am no longer believing that people can be convinced 409 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 1: that guns are a real issue in this country. Like 410 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:02,520 Speaker 1: I think that those of us who have won to serious, necessary, 411 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: aggressive gun reforms have just been met with a multi 412 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,879 Speaker 1: billion dollar gun lobby, have been met with politicians that 413 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: we know are bought and paid for with their A 414 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: plus plus ratings from the NRA, And so I don't 415 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: necessarily believe that any convincing of the population which their 416 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 1: positions and their desire to see change is not going 417 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: to happen with politicians who's gerrymandered districts and a lobby 418 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: that has bought the federal bench. So I'm just like, 419 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 1: meet my cynicism with possibility right now, I guess is 420 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: the point is what I'm gonna ask Jonathan, because I 421 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: don't see it. 422 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: Can you meet it with passive? Well, it's like really quiet. 423 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 2: Everybody just never happened, you know. 424 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 3: Again, We've talked about this a lot. I think that 425 00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: in a way we just didn't see what we were 426 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 3: up against in a way, in a way, public health 427 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 3: immediately jumped into the fore when nobody else did, which 428 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 3: is super super important, but it just it wasn't the 429 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 3: answer to the threat we were facing, right, which is 430 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 3: that the right recognized that for two centuries in this country, 431 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 3: only white men could carry guns, and that that was 432 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 3: a symbol of a right given to white men that 433 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 3: wasn't given to other people, and carrying a gun in 434 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 3: public meant whiteness. 435 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:26,400 Speaker 1: In a way. 436 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 3: You know, from pre colonial America on down, that white 437 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,640 Speaker 3: men could carry guns to suppress Native or Indian uprisings, 438 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 3: then slaves running away and all these kind of things. 439 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 3: The clan rode the night ride night night writers were 440 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,440 Speaker 3: trying to disarm black people who had guns. Black codes 441 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,520 Speaker 3: across the South. So there's a long history of what 442 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 3: it means to own and carry a gun, which ain't 443 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 3: about health. It's about power and privilege. And so yes, 444 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 3: guns are killing and entering way, way, way too many people, 445 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,520 Speaker 3: but guns symbolize power for a lot of people, and 446 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 3: so calling it a public health problem is not going 447 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 3: to convince people if it's not also tied to electoral 448 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 3: reform and judge reform and anti jerimandering efforts and all 449 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 3: these things. And I guess I'm saying this because the 450 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 3: right recognized this. They recognize that they had like the 451 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,720 Speaker 3: perfect symbol of what it meant to be a white man. 452 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 3: You know, nobody's going to take this away. The government's 453 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 3: not going to take this away, and they have amplified 454 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 3: this for decades now. And is calling it a public 455 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 3: health problem going to address that? Or is it going 456 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 3: to convince the people who are already convinced and marginalize 457 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 3: the people who are who don't agree with it. And 458 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 3: so the question is, I don't know for me that 459 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,479 Speaker 3: polarization is the is the bigger problem. I'm not you know, 460 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 3: in the book, as you know, I talk about a 461 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: lot of ways I think we can address this that 462 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 3: aren't linked to public health, right making communities safer, creating 463 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 3: job and green programs, and all these kind of things, 464 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 3: like looking at the ways in which we can actually 465 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: make public space safer. That's always my answer. I'm a structuralist. 466 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 3: But you know, again, I hope this does good. I 467 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,239 Speaker 3: really do hope this does good. I'm not rooting against it. 468 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: I'm just saying that I have a whole book of 469 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:23,080 Speaker 3: counter argument evidence, which is not an answer to what 470 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 3: you're saying. But I just think that if we don't 471 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 3: address these bigger issues, we're going to just keep being 472 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 3: in the same feedback. 473 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: Lop And I guess that that's where the cynicism is, 474 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: and that's where like the frustration, you know, it's like 475 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: my anger, my rage vacillates to cynicism, and like not apathy, 476 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: but just a lack of possibility that we are going 477 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,360 Speaker 1: to see anything change in our lifetimes. I mean, when 478 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: you see a classroom of children, kindergarteners whose names were 479 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: just read out recently at the high school graduation that 480 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: the Newtown children should have been at, but we're murdered 481 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: in classroom and there's no change that happens in this country, 482 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: then like I feel like we've just lost right. And 483 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 1: I think then that's why so many people will then 484 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: turn around, they will pick up their own guns and 485 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: be like, well fuck it. If I can't beat them, 486 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: we can't beat sent into them. We can't show them 487 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: the you know, And maybe we just should have begged 488 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: those parents to show the bodies of their children, as 489 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,320 Speaker 1: mam Ma Atill did with em at Till's body, right, Like, 490 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: maybe that's what we need because otherwise, you know, you 491 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: have the right calling folks crisis actors and just you know, 492 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,200 Speaker 1: disregarding the lives of our children. 493 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,200 Speaker 3: Well, but also, let me just say that you need 494 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: a long term strategy, right In other words, people, you 495 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 3: need a long term strategy. If calling this a public 496 00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 3: health crisis more will lead to judges, honestly will it'll 497 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 3: lead to judges. If it's enough of a wedge issue 498 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 3: that it'll lead to that, then there is a long 499 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 3: term strategy, right if exposing the violence, like you're saying, 500 00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 3: we'll do this. But I just think the problem is 501 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 3: people act like public health is common sense, and that 502 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 3: is not the case for me. I think if it's 503 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 3: not tied to a long term strategy in the American 504 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 3: zero sum political situation, it's just got to lead to 505 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,280 Speaker 3: reproducing the problems and so if public health is tied 506 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: to electoral format, anti gearmandering and all this kind of thing. 507 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 3: But the issue for me is when I talk to 508 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 3: public health people a lot of times I'm like, oh, no, 509 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 3: that's politics. We're a political and I'm like, dude, this 510 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 3: is a political issue, and so it's got to be 511 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 3: you know, if this leads to more political engagement that 512 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 3: is about the judiciary, then count me in one hundred percent. 513 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 3: It's more just when people start calling public health common sense, 514 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 3: that's I think we're being into trouble because it's not 515 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 3: common sense for the people you're trying to convince to 516 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 3: follow your rules. 517 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: All right, my friend, we will leave it there today 518 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: and pick it up again next week. 519 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 2: Always always appreciate. 520 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 3: Week as a restaurant and movie week. 521 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 1: So it's going to be a bunch of sad documentaries. 522 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 1: All right, Appreciate you, my friend. 523 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 3: Bye, everybody. 524 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 2: That is it for me today. 525 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,880 Speaker 1: Dear friends on Woke af as always, Power to the 526 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: people and to all the people. 527 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.