WEBVTT - Parallels PT 1

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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<v Speaker 2>writing about true crime.

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<v Speaker 3>And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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<v Speaker 3>worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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<v Speaker 2>Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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<v Speaker 2>compelling true crimes.

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<v Speaker 3>And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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<v Speaker 3>new insights to old mysteries.

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<v Speaker 2>Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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<v Speaker 2>cases through a twenty first century lens.

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<v Speaker 3>Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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<v Speaker 1>This is buried bones.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm doing well. How about you?

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<v Speaker 3>I'm doing good. It's getting warm here, so it gets

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<v Speaker 3>a warm in this office.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we've all heard about that, the man cave.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm glad you're calling it in an office now. I

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<v Speaker 2>think it was usually just your man cave. But for video,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a little different.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, No, that's absolutely it. I'm hoping not to start sweating.

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<v Speaker 2>No, me too. I had to turn my little air

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<v Speaker 2>conditioner off in the cottage. It's going to be steamy

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<v Speaker 2>in here. Pretty soon, but I'll just talk faster.

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<v Speaker 3>No big deal, all right, I'll try to keep up.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been working on some stress relief stuff. And

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<v Speaker 2>I know you do a lot of outdoor stuff, and

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<v Speaker 2>I do too. My mom is a huge gardener, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I sort of started picking up gardening and I'll

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<v Speaker 2>enjoy it. Do any planting or you and your wife

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<v Speaker 2>do any kind of vegetables or anything out there.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, living in California, I did a lot of not

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<v Speaker 3>so much gardening, but a lot of landscaping. I installed

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<v Speaker 3>multiple backyards, from the sprinkler system, degrading to building retaining

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<v Speaker 3>walls and planting all the various you know, types of

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<v Speaker 3>trees and shrubs and stuff. I did try at one

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<v Speaker 3>point to have a little vegetable garden where I lived.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, it gets so hot, you know, it just

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<v Speaker 3>didn't really work out very well. And then now here

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<v Speaker 3>in Colorado you really can't where I live. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>if you plant anything, you're going to attract the deer

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<v Speaker 3>or you're going to attract the bears. And so it's

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<v Speaker 3>just like now I'll just keep the natural, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>plants and stuff around the house.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I understand that we have tons and tons of loads

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<v Speaker 2>of deer in our neighborhood, and people try everything, including

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<v Speaker 2>my mom. They put the little tents over them to

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<v Speaker 2>try to get them to stop eating. We don't really

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<v Speaker 2>have them over in our joint. So a friend of

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<v Speaker 2>mine had built me a raised bed a long time ago,

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<v Speaker 2>and I could not handle a raised vegetable bed, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I bought myself just a small little vegetable box

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<v Speaker 2>and killed everything. Last year. The heat did. I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 2>blame Texas heat. The heat did, except I'll tell you

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<v Speaker 2>what survived. Strawberries were awesome. Okay, tomatoes were great, except

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<v Speaker 2>the stupid squirrels. I love squirrels, but they're stupid in

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<v Speaker 2>this case. And then jolapenos did really well. So guess

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<v Speaker 2>what I bought this year. Because I want my self

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<v Speaker 2>esteem to continue to go up.

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<v Speaker 3>You're going to be redoing jlapenos, tomatoes, and strawberries.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I was a big failure with cucumbers. But I

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<v Speaker 2>bought a peach tree this year, and so I'm really

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<v Speaker 2>excited about those. But now I have a whole bird

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<v Speaker 2>netting that goes over it because the squirrels and the

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<v Speaker 2>birds love these peaches that are green, little peaches now,

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<v Speaker 2>so I get with my mom. My Mom has just

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<v Speaker 2>been so into plants for so long, and I get

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<v Speaker 2>what she likes about it. It's really relaxing and you

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<v Speaker 2>go out every morning and kind of check on everything.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, I think I travel so much I

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<v Speaker 3>would not be able to give it the attention that

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<v Speaker 3>it probably would something like that would need.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I really took an interest when I got the

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<v Speaker 2>cottage because it's sort of a I've put pictures on

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<v Speaker 2>Instagram of it. It's we have a forested area in

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<v Speaker 2>the back, even though you know, we have a fenced

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<v Speaker 2>in backyard. And when we bought it from the original owners,

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<v Speaker 2>it had just been so overgrown. I didn't even know

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<v Speaker 2>what was back there, and we eventually cleared it out

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<v Speaker 2>kept all the trees. We have cedar, and we have

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<v Speaker 2>some cedar elm and a lot of different kinds of trees.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was sitting in here in the fall last

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<v Speaker 2>year and the cedar elm was this beautiful color. When

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<v Speaker 2>it turned, it was like a mustard color. A wind

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<v Speaker 2>came through and it like rained cedar elm leaves all

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<v Speaker 2>over the place. And I think that's what convinced me

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<v Speaker 2>to go ahead and start trying with trees and vegetables

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<v Speaker 2>and everything else. So it's satisfying to me. Yeah, I

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<v Speaker 2>find it relied.

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<v Speaker 3>Boy.

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<v Speaker 2>Both of us need anything that can relax us. Besides,

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<v Speaker 2>I know, whiskey and cider for me.

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<v Speaker 3>Now you'll have to have to send me some photos

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<v Speaker 3>of some success.

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<v Speaker 1>I will.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to try to post more photos I posted.

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<v Speaker 2>Starting a couple of months ago, I started posting on Sundays,

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<v Speaker 2>just cute photo of something that's going on in my life.

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<v Speaker 2>Usually it's like the dogs people love Ruby and Bailey,

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<v Speaker 2>or why I have a hummingbird feeder. My kids love

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<v Speaker 2>the hummingbird feeder, and so I did post some cottage stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm going to try to do some trees and vegetables.

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<v Speaker 2>It makes me happy. Yeah, And you know, not everything

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<v Speaker 2>that you know I post, of course, has to do

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<v Speaker 2>with the shows or the death or anything else. And

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<v Speaker 2>so I'm trying to look really more positively.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, these days, especially well, you have to have

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<v Speaker 3>something that distracts you. And that's where like me taking

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<v Speaker 3>my jeep out or mountain biking. You know, it just

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<v Speaker 3>gets the mind away from sort of the drudgery of

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<v Speaker 3>the cases. You know, because I get involved in so

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<v Speaker 3>many different cases.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah, speaking of getting dragged into the drudgery of cases,

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<v Speaker 2>that's what we're doing now. I'm going to drag you

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<v Speaker 2>into the drudgery in the case. I wonder if you're

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<v Speaker 2>going to know this case. It's from nineteen seventy Sacramento.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, well you know, of course I wasn't living

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<v Speaker 3>in California back in nineteen seventy and Sacramento. You know,

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<v Speaker 3>my focus was the unsolved cases in the Bay Area,

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<v Speaker 3>so very very familiar. Okay, down in the Bay Area,

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<v Speaker 3>but there's a chance I could have heard something up

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<v Speaker 3>in Sacramento.

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<v Speaker 2>When I was in San Francisco working for a network,

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<v Speaker 2>we were in Sacramento all the time. I don't really

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<v Speaker 2>like to go. I loved visiting there, one of my

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<v Speaker 2>favorite places to go, visit, going back and forth. So

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<v Speaker 2>let's go ahead and set the scene. This is autumn

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<v Speaker 2>of nineteen seventy in Sacramento, and this is the story

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<v Speaker 2>of a woman named Nancy Binilac, and she's twenty eight

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<v Speaker 2>years old, and she is a native of Grass Valley, California,

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<v Speaker 2>which is nearby, but she's in Sacramento. Is Grass Valley

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<v Speaker 2>Are you familiar with that. I hadn't been there before.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't think yep. You know, that's just kind of

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<v Speaker 3>in the foothills past the Sacramento Full sum area. It's

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<v Speaker 3>a beautiful place at a lot of law enforcement relocates

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<v Speaker 3>there when they retire.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well this sounds like a really really, really nice

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<v Speaker 2>are Nancy is someone who has been well liked by

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<v Speaker 2>her peers. She was a cheerleader in high school. Doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>always mean you're well liked, but it's a point she was.

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<v Speaker 2>She was in high school. Everybody, you know, when she

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<v Speaker 2>was in high school, people seem to really like her.

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<v Speaker 2>She made good grades, she had a lot of friends,

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<v Speaker 2>and she graduated in nineteen sixty. So she went to

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<v Speaker 2>school for stenography, and then she became a court reporter

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<v Speaker 2>at the Sacramento County Juvenile Court in nineteen sixty six.

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<v Speaker 2>I am beyond fascinated with court reporters and what they do.

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<v Speaker 2>And I know it's changed, and I don't you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I've had to write about it several times just because

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<v Speaker 2>I have, you know, of course, these old cases. I

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<v Speaker 2>think my nineteen fifty two case we had to touch

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<v Speaker 2>on whatever the court reporter was doing in the device

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<v Speaker 2>they were using at the time. I don't know very

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<v Speaker 2>much about it. I know you've been there with them,

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<v Speaker 2>but do you know a lot about court reporting?

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<v Speaker 3>No, you know, of course I've testified a ton. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I've testified close to two hundred times over

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<v Speaker 3>the course of my career. And I was the court

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<v Speaker 3>reporter's worst nightmare because when I'm testifying, I'm a very

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<v Speaker 3>fast talker, and literally these gals throw up their hands

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<v Speaker 3>and say slow down. So I'd have to kind of

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<v Speaker 3>remind myself I need to talk, you know, very purposefully.

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<v Speaker 3>And then of course with the scientific side, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>there's sometimes there's some of the some of the technical

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<v Speaker 3>terms that have to be spelled out for them, but

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<v Speaker 3>how they are able to keep track in real time

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<v Speaker 3>with that device, because there's many times where you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the judge or an attorney needs something read back that

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<v Speaker 3>was just stated and that she's able to take a

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<v Speaker 3>look at, you know what at the time was printed.

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<v Speaker 3>I think I'm sure they're electronic today and go back

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<v Speaker 3>and say, okay, defense attorney asked this question, the witness,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, respond it this way, the prosecutor kind of

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<v Speaker 3>you know, and so how they keep track of all

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<v Speaker 3>that is amazing.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess attention to detail and definitely keeping attention in general,

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<v Speaker 2>and Nancy seemed to do that very well. So she

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<v Speaker 2>is twenty eight, she's a court reporter in Sacramento. She

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<v Speaker 2>is a very full personal life. There are quite a

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<v Speaker 2>few people in this story. Luckily, you know, we'll have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of clarity later on, but I'll just start

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<v Speaker 2>introducing them to you. She's engaged to a guy named

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<v Speaker 2>Ferris Salami, and he is the chief public Defender for

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<v Speaker 2>the county. What does that person do is that? I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know why. I feel like I've not heard that

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<v Speaker 2>phrase very often. Chief public defender for the county.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you know, the various public defender's offices in DA's

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<v Speaker 3>office have different rank structures, so I'm interpreting chief public

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<v Speaker 3>Defender as he is, in essence, the top administrator for

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<v Speaker 3>the public defender's office probably has had a very significant

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<v Speaker 3>legal career and then promoted up through the ranks. So

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<v Speaker 3>I'm somewhat surprised she's at the time twenty eight and

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<v Speaker 3>she's dating the chief public defender. You know, in court

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<v Speaker 3>they would be bumping into each all the time, so

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<v Speaker 3>you could see where they would be getting to know

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<v Speaker 3>each other. Just because of the court I would expect

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<v Speaker 3>him to be older. How old is he?

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<v Speaker 2>So what I'm reading about Ferris is that he represented

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<v Speaker 2>some of the Capitol's most notorious killers. He died in

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<v Speaker 2>twenty eighteen at eighty four, so he was born in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirty, so he was forty. Okay, But I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>is that a conflict of interest? Would you think that

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<v Speaker 2>would be a conflict of interest or now?

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<v Speaker 3>No, you know, because the court reporter really is a

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<v Speaker 3>part of that neutral party of the court, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>So I don't see where there would be any issues

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<v Speaker 3>there at all.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, So this is an exciting time in her life.

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<v Speaker 2>She's planning her wedding, she's trying on dresses, looking forward

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<v Speaker 2>to the future, and you know, as I sometimes do,

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<v Speaker 2>I wanted you to see what she looks like. So

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<v Speaker 2>open up your document that I sent you and look

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<v Speaker 2>on page one, but don't go past page one, and

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<v Speaker 2>then you'll see a photo of Nancy.

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<v Speaker 3>I see a photo of Nancy. It's a crop photo.

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<v Speaker 3>There appears to be maybe a man's arm around, you know,

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<v Speaker 3>around her shoulder, like he was standing next to her

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<v Speaker 3>holding her but he's been cropped out. So taking a

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<v Speaker 3>look at the photo of Nancy, it's I mean, she's

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<v Speaker 3>attractive woman. She's got the old style hair. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>sure what you'd call that, like a boufont or something.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a big that's a big head of hair. I

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<v Speaker 2>love it.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I love it.

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<v Speaker 2>She was stylish, yeah.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. And it's that's like when I do the

0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:36.760
<v Speaker 3>cases from this era, you know, that's part of the

0:11:36.760 --> 0:11:41.160
<v Speaker 3>the interesting aspect is looking at you know, the victims

0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.960
<v Speaker 3>in terms of in life, you know, the family photos

0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.400
<v Speaker 3>or whatever. You know, it was a different era.

0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:54.560
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so we are in wedding planning phase, right, and

0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.680
<v Speaker 2>she's supposed to quit around November thirtieth. So now we

0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.600
<v Speaker 2>go back a couple of more weeks. It's probably about

0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:02.960
<v Speaker 2>two and a half weeks, and we're on Monday, October

0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.520
<v Speaker 2>twenty sixth, nineteen seventy and this is where people start

0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.240
<v Speaker 2>becoming alarmed about this story. She doesn't come to work

0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:12.640
<v Speaker 2>that day, so this is her last few weeks of

0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:16.439
<v Speaker 2>work essentially, and she doesn't show up. Nobody can reach

0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:18.120
<v Speaker 2>her by phone. She has a phone at home, of course,

0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.160
<v Speaker 2>no cell phone because it's nineteen seventy. But you know,

0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:22.000
<v Speaker 2>she's a phone at home and nobody can get a

0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.199
<v Speaker 2>hold of her. They think that this is odd, of course,

0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.920
<v Speaker 2>and out of character, because she's a very reliable person.

0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Somebody reaches out to Nancy's sister, whose name is Linda,

0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:33.800
<v Speaker 2>and they want to know if she has any information.

0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:36.920
<v Speaker 2>So her sister does some brainstorming, and then about ten

0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.160
<v Speaker 2>o'clock she calls a family friend who's a guy named

0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.400
<v Speaker 2>Jack Moncreef. He lives in the same apartment building as Nancy.

0:12:45.000 --> 0:12:47.320
<v Speaker 2>So she's on the second floor and Jack is on

0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.320
<v Speaker 2>the first floor, just beneath her, and over the phone, Jack,

0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:54.679
<v Speaker 2>who is looking out his window towards the building's parking lot,

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.240
<v Speaker 2>he says, to Linda, your sister's car is here. She's

0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:00.520
<v Speaker 2>in the parking lot, and he said, you know, I'll

0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.880
<v Speaker 2>go upstairs and make sure she's okay. But when Jack

0:13:03.960 --> 0:13:07.640
<v Speaker 2>knocks on Nancy's door, she doesn't answer and the door's locked.

0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 2>So let's pause here so that you can kind of

0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:12.640
<v Speaker 2>gather your thoughts on what we have. I know it's

0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.800
<v Speaker 2>pretty vague right now. Nobody's seen her since it sounds

0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:20.880
<v Speaker 2>like Sunday, and her car is in the parking lot.

0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:22.959
<v Speaker 2>She was expected to be at home anyway, she was

0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:26.280
<v Speaker 2>in for the night, and her door is locked. And

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.240
<v Speaker 2>Jack will say in a minute, he doesn't see anybody

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 2>jimmy ing anything open. There doesn't look like any violence

0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:34.720
<v Speaker 2>that's happened on the exterior of that door.

0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:40.080
<v Speaker 3>You know, this sounds like the you know, prototypical. We

0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:43.200
<v Speaker 3>need to do a welfare check. You know, Nancy is

0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:47.640
<v Speaker 3>a very responsible woman, has a stable job, has not

0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:51.839
<v Speaker 3>had this type of absence. And the fact that her

0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:55.520
<v Speaker 3>car is in the parking lot and her apartment is locked,

0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.040
<v Speaker 3>it's like, well, she in the apartment has has she

0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.840
<v Speaker 3>suffered some sort of health issue, you know, like say

0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:04.600
<v Speaker 3>she had a stroke, or has foul play happened? Again?

0:14:05.120 --> 0:14:07.440
<v Speaker 3>Was she a victim inside the apartment or was she

0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.480
<v Speaker 3>a victim that has been abducted away from this location taken?

0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:13.160
<v Speaker 3>And let's say in the offender's vehicle.

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.640
<v Speaker 2>If you are Jack, do you if we have three doors,

0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:18.959
<v Speaker 2>do you try to find another way in because you're

0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.200
<v Speaker 2>worried about your friend? Do you contact the apartment manager

0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:23.920
<v Speaker 2>to try to get a key, or you just fought

0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.760
<v Speaker 2>out call the police because you're worried at this point, well.

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:28.880
<v Speaker 3>I think, you know, at this point, I'm not sure

0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.720
<v Speaker 3>what you know, how much concerned Linda is expressing just like, hey,

0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 3>this is unusual. So I imagine Jack is just kind

0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:38.520
<v Speaker 3>of you know, walked around the perimeter of what he

0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 3>can of this apartment. Are there any open you know,

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.840
<v Speaker 3>are there any windows where he can have you know,

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:48.720
<v Speaker 3>visibility inside? And then eventually that's where it's like, well,

0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.640
<v Speaker 3>let's get the apartment manager and have that you know,

0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:55.400
<v Speaker 3>person go in. That's typically what ends up happening. And

0:14:55.440 --> 0:14:58.400
<v Speaker 3>then then if something's discovered, if something bad is discovered,

0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.320
<v Speaker 3>now you're getting law enforcement role in out.

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:03.280
<v Speaker 2>Okay, but what if they open the door and she's

0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:06.600
<v Speaker 2>sleeping with another guy or you know, something else is happening.

0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:09.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're running that risk of a manager using

0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.000
<v Speaker 2>the key when all this woman wanted was privacy.

0:15:11.600 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 3>And locked her door, right, you know, And so that

0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 3>sometimes happens. You know, sometimes you know, law enforcement does

0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:19.120
<v Speaker 3>a welfare check and see something where they have to

0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 3>force themselves in and turns out, well, the person was

0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.320
<v Speaker 3>just living their life and didn't want to be disturbed.

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:26.680
<v Speaker 3>But some you know, private party on the outside, whether

0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:28.800
<v Speaker 3>it be a family member, or somebody else has called

0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:31.680
<v Speaker 3>law enforcement say hey, can you check you know, because

0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:33.080
<v Speaker 3>this is not this is not right.

0:15:33.400 --> 0:15:35.360
<v Speaker 2>That's why we're looking for patterns. Right, she didn't show

0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 2>up to work. That was weird. Yeah, and her car

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 2>is in the parking lot. Okay, So Jack does what

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.240
<v Speaker 2>you say. He finds the apartment manager. It's a guy

0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.160
<v Speaker 2>named Victor Anderson. And see, now we've already come up

0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.720
<v Speaker 2>with three or four male names, and then we've got Linda,

0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.440
<v Speaker 2>so this is kind of a big cast. So Victor

0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.360
<v Speaker 2>is the apartment manager. They go up this second floor

0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.680
<v Speaker 2>to Nancy's apartment. He uses his master key. They get inside,

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:03.000
<v Speaker 2>and they look around the apartment. Nothing's happening, nothing seems touched.

0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.560
<v Speaker 2>And then they get into the bedroom and that's where

0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.600
<v Speaker 2>they find Nancy and she is deceased and she's laying

0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.760
<v Speaker 2>down in a pool of blood in her bedroom. And

0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.200
<v Speaker 2>I actually have a photo that Maren was able to

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 2>grab off of a TV show. She sometimes has to

0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.240
<v Speaker 2>do this when we can't figure out where photos are.

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 2>She'll just take her camera and take a photo of

0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.680
<v Speaker 2>it so that we can at least show you some stuff.

0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:29.960
<v Speaker 2>She has a photo that this show cut out that

0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:32.200
<v Speaker 2>shows the position of her body, and then of course,

0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, we'll have medical examiner stuff, and then there's

0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.960
<v Speaker 2>how everybody reacts to this. So what do you want

0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:38.880
<v Speaker 2>to do first.

0:16:38.880 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 3>Well, just describe what they see, Okay.

0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.960
<v Speaker 2>So he rushes back down to the apartment and he

0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.280
<v Speaker 2>tells Linda that you know, this is what's happened. She's dead.

0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't know anything about it. She's face down and

0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:55.840
<v Speaker 2>she's has blood everywhere. The police arrive and here's what

0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.600
<v Speaker 2>the scene is. She is naked except for a pair

0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 2>of under where she has more than thirty stab wounds.

0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:05.840
<v Speaker 2>Many of these are on the front of her body.

0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:11.080
<v Speaker 2>But investigators also think that Nancy's attacker rolled her over

0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:15.640
<v Speaker 2>so onto her stomach before he tried to or she

0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>tried to decapitate her. She has defensive wounds on her

0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.359
<v Speaker 2>hands and arms, and there is a large slash on

0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:25.399
<v Speaker 2>her leg, suggesting that she might have put up a fight.

0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.960
<v Speaker 2>And I have a photo of the position of the body,

0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.680
<v Speaker 2>but it's been cut out just for you know, privacy sake,

0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.919
<v Speaker 2>I guess. And then there are some other clues at

0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.760
<v Speaker 2>the scene. But that's where we are. Thirty stab wounds

0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.080
<v Speaker 2>and there is evidence of sexual assault.

0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:41.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I'm looking at a photo and this is

0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.800
<v Speaker 3>a photo that shows on the left hand side of

0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:49.560
<v Speaker 3>the photo appears to be the bed, and then you

0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:55.359
<v Speaker 3>have this white almost like a mannequin laying face down

0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.960
<v Speaker 3>on the floor. So somehow, you know, with computer graphics,

0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:05.240
<v Speaker 3>they were able to very precisely remove the visual aspect

0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.000
<v Speaker 3>of Nancy, but maintain the proportions of her body, the

0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:11.879
<v Speaker 3>arms being folded up, the legs kind of sticking straight out,

0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:16.639
<v Speaker 3>and then it appears that her head might be on

0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.560
<v Speaker 3>what looks like a pillow with some blood staining on

0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.960
<v Speaker 3>the pillow. I don't know if they remove so let's

0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.960
<v Speaker 3>say the blood pool or any other of the blood

0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:29.879
<v Speaker 3>patterns that may have been present, if they digitally remove

0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:32.640
<v Speaker 3>those from this photo, because that's what I'd be interested

0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.160
<v Speaker 3>in taking a look at. Plus, I'd want to see

0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:36.760
<v Speaker 3>the stab wounds. I want to see the types of

0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.240
<v Speaker 3>blood flows out of the stab wounds to indicate the motion.

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:43.960
<v Speaker 3>You know, you imagine that the offender is probably initially

0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.080
<v Speaker 3>attacking her and they're face to face. That's why she

0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.080
<v Speaker 3>has a lot of these stab wounds to the front

0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:52.040
<v Speaker 3>of her plus the defensive injuries, you know, and a

0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.720
<v Speaker 3>lot of the blood in stabbing scenes often come from

0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 3>cuts to the hands, cut to the arms. And now

0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.680
<v Speaker 3>during during the commotion, during the battle, you're now getting

0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:04.960
<v Speaker 3>blood being flung off from the limbs.

0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:07.439
<v Speaker 2>Is that blood on the pillow? Do you think is that?

0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.119
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I know it looks kind of weird with

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:11.440
<v Speaker 2>this photo, and they've obviously altered some stuff, But does

0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.520
<v Speaker 2>that Is that a big blood pooling on the pillow

0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:14.720
<v Speaker 2>that her head's face down in?

0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.520
<v Speaker 3>You know, well, it's it's hard to say how big

0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:20.400
<v Speaker 3>that that blood pool is. What ends up happening is

0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.320
<v Speaker 3>is you get the fabric the blood flows through capillary

0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:29.040
<v Speaker 3>reaction spreads as as the blood feeds that fabric. So oftentimes,

0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, it looks a lot larger than the amount

0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:36.119
<v Speaker 3>of blood that was probably deposited. But if if she's

0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:39.199
<v Speaker 3>if he tried to decapitate her, and if she may

0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:42.000
<v Speaker 3>have already been dead at this point, her heart isn't pumping,

0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:45.960
<v Speaker 3>but there could be a significant amount of blood from

0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:49.240
<v Speaker 3>what I'm assuming is going to be a cut neck,

0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:52.360
<v Speaker 3>a cut throat, and that would all be underneath her.

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.960
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so this is something unusual, I think, And you

0:19:55.960 --> 0:19:57.800
<v Speaker 2>could tell me what you think about the police theory.

0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:00.639
<v Speaker 2>Near Nancy's body and now I don't think you can

0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:03.240
<v Speaker 2>see that in the photo, but I have a separate photo.

0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.880
<v Speaker 2>Near her body, police find a bloody piece of masking

0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:11.239
<v Speaker 2>tape which has been curled into a circle shape, kind

0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:12.679
<v Speaker 2>of like a band aid that you would put on

0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.480
<v Speaker 2>the tip of your finger. I think. Okay, they theorized

0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.320
<v Speaker 2>that the murderer had wrapped tape around each of his

0:20:18.400 --> 0:20:20.600
<v Speaker 2>fingers to hide his prints. I don't know why you

0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:23.560
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't just wear gloves, but that's what they think. And

0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:27.560
<v Speaker 2>one of these popped off. That of course, suggests to

0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.919
<v Speaker 2>them that there is pre planning involved here, which I

0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.199
<v Speaker 2>think probably is the case. Anyway, what do you think

0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:35.720
<v Speaker 2>about that theory? Number one and number two? If you

0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.639
<v Speaker 2>look on I think it's page three, you'll see what

0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:39.840
<v Speaker 2>they're talking about.

0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:42.639
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I was when you initially described it. I was like,

0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.280
<v Speaker 3>that doesn't sound right, but this does look like you know,

0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:48.439
<v Speaker 3>in essence, it looks like a band aid that was

0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.880
<v Speaker 3>over the end of a finger. Yeah, and it appears

0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.400
<v Speaker 3>to be quite bloody. You know, why would the offender

0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:57.000
<v Speaker 3>wear something like that? You know, it's possible maybe he

0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.919
<v Speaker 3>had you know, some pre existing cut and that was

0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:01.960
<v Speaker 3>all he had available to put on his finger and

0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.680
<v Speaker 3>it just is coincidental that it drops off during during

0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.280
<v Speaker 3>the attack on Nancy. Now, back during this era in

0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:13.199
<v Speaker 3>the nineteen seventies, fingerprints is the primary concern of the

0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:16.040
<v Speaker 3>offenders because that's how law enforcement could actually identify you.

0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.479
<v Speaker 3>And so these offenders will try, you know, a variety

0:21:19.560 --> 0:21:22.760
<v Speaker 3>of different things to hide their fingerprints from being from

0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.640
<v Speaker 3>leaving their fingerprints behind, you know. Most commonly it's wearing gloves,

0:21:27.040 --> 0:21:29.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, but you do have some offenders that will,

0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:33.119
<v Speaker 3>you know, they've they've tried to use sandpaper to file down,

0:21:33.480 --> 0:21:36.359
<v Speaker 3>you know, the ends of their fingers and try and

0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:38.520
<v Speaker 3>you know, put glue you know, on the ends of

0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:41.639
<v Speaker 3>their fingers, you know. And it's just sometimes some of

0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:47.680
<v Speaker 3>these alterations just make their fingerprints more unique, particularly when

0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:51.200
<v Speaker 3>it's scars. So I'm not sure what's going on here

0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.800
<v Speaker 3>just yet, but yeah, that is odd. But it also

0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:58.159
<v Speaker 3>is potentially a great source of offender DNA.

0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:00.760
<v Speaker 2>And it looks like they've saved that, which is good.

0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.040
<v Speaker 2>And there's more DNA floating around that I can tell

0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:07.160
<v Speaker 2>you about. So we've got that finger covering, they say,

0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:11.160
<v Speaker 2>investigators don't think that the killer intentionally took, of course,

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.000
<v Speaker 2>this piece of tape off and left it behind. They

0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:16.000
<v Speaker 2>think it slipped off in the struggle. And there's a knife,

0:22:16.040 --> 0:22:18.359
<v Speaker 2>which we know gets really bloody and people get cut

0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:21.480
<v Speaker 2>when they stab people, so it looks like because of

0:22:21.480 --> 0:22:24.200
<v Speaker 2>the defensive wounds, she was fighting back to begin with.

0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:27.479
<v Speaker 2>There's no murder weapon found at the scene, but a

0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:30.960
<v Speaker 2>pathologist will later guess that it was a very sharp

0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.240
<v Speaker 2>knife with a three or four inch long blade that

0:22:34.400 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 2>was used to kill Nancy. Is that because he found

0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.720
<v Speaker 2>a pattern of depth that showed kind of a consistency.

0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Is that where he would have come.

0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:46.200
<v Speaker 3>Up with that, right? So, and this is where sometimes

0:22:46.720 --> 0:22:51.399
<v Speaker 3>the size of the knife can be exaggerated because they

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:55.240
<v Speaker 3>will misinterpret the wounds. So you think about aspects on

0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:57.840
<v Speaker 3>your body. Let's say a stabbing to your abdomen where

0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:01.800
<v Speaker 3>there's no bony structure underneath, So a very short blade

0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.359
<v Speaker 3>you can push much deeper into the abdomen, and so

0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.880
<v Speaker 3>the stab wound is much deeper than the actual length

0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.439
<v Speaker 3>of the blade. So for the pathologists to kind of

0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:13.520
<v Speaker 3>conclude this was a three to four inch long blade,

0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:17.920
<v Speaker 3>I'm assuming he's looking at a stab wound in let's

0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:20.159
<v Speaker 3>say the chest area where now you have the ribs,

0:23:20.200 --> 0:23:24.080
<v Speaker 3>you're not getting that compression, and probably found a stab

0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:28.600
<v Speaker 3>wound that wasn't significantly distorted. When a stabbing is occurring

0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.440
<v Speaker 3>and the victim is moving, oftentimes the stab wounds the

0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:34.640
<v Speaker 3>knife cuts you stab in, but then the victim kind

0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:38.000
<v Speaker 3>of moves and now the stab wound is much larger

0:23:38.080 --> 0:23:41.720
<v Speaker 3>looking than what the actual width of the blade is.

0:23:42.280 --> 0:23:45.159
<v Speaker 3>And so that's where pathologist has to evaluate the stab

0:23:45.200 --> 0:23:48.359
<v Speaker 3>wounds and find a stab wound in which it would

0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 3>be okay, this is not a compressible area on the body,

0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:56.200
<v Speaker 3>and it doesn't appear that the knife cut sideways if

0:23:56.240 --> 0:23:58.320
<v Speaker 3>you will, while it was in the body. So that's

0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:00.399
<v Speaker 3>where he can take a look and go, okay, it's

0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:02.400
<v Speaker 3>a it's a single edge blade, or it's a double

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.840
<v Speaker 3>edged blade. It's so long, it's you know, it has

0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:09.359
<v Speaker 3>a certain width, and starts forming opinions in terms of

0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:11.560
<v Speaker 3>the type of knife. Is a pocket knife? Is this

0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:14.680
<v Speaker 3>something you know that that's like a bowie knife, a big,

0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:16.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, big like hunting type of knife.

0:24:16.800 --> 0:24:19.480
<v Speaker 2>If this turns out to be a stranger versus you know,

0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:24.159
<v Speaker 2>somebody in her social circle. Do you think that you

0:24:24.200 --> 0:24:26.960
<v Speaker 2>know what I hear a lot is that term overkill,

0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.919
<v Speaker 2>thirty stand wounds trying to decapitate her. I hear that

0:24:31.000 --> 0:24:34.800
<v Speaker 2>assumption a lot that this must be something personal, And

0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:37.359
<v Speaker 2>I think you've said before absolutely doesn't have to be

0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:39.560
<v Speaker 2>personal at all. It could be pure anger or control

0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:41.560
<v Speaker 2>or whatever it is. So why don't we talk a

0:24:41.600 --> 0:24:43.320
<v Speaker 2>little bit about dispelling that myth too?

0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:47.679
<v Speaker 3>Well? I think you know it is not uncommon to

0:24:47.760 --> 0:24:51.920
<v Speaker 3>have this number of stab wounds. Stabbings occur, they can

0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:56.280
<v Speaker 3>be very quick, and I've previously talked about I'm not

0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:59.159
<v Speaker 3>sure if it was with you or or in a

0:24:59.240 --> 0:25:05.200
<v Speaker 3>different setting, but just watch prison shankings. You know, they'll

0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:08.359
<v Speaker 3>release the videos of some guy walking across the yard

0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 3>and another guy comes up and all of a sudden,

0:25:10.320 --> 0:25:14.040
<v Speaker 3>he's stabbing him with a shank, and within seconds there's

0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:18.320
<v Speaker 3>ten twenty stab wounds on the victim. In those situations.

0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:22.600
<v Speaker 3>Here with Nancy, you know she is being attacked and

0:25:22.640 --> 0:25:27.440
<v Speaker 3>who knows what type of interactions occurred between the offender

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:30.840
<v Speaker 3>and Nancy prior to the stabbing starting. But once that

0:25:30.960 --> 0:25:35.800
<v Speaker 3>stabbing starts, they often can go very quick in terms

0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:38.119
<v Speaker 3>of the number of wounds, and it's not like the

0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:41.040
<v Speaker 3>offender is sitting there counting one, two, three, it's just

0:25:41.080 --> 0:25:43.639
<v Speaker 3>boom boom, boom boom. She's still moving, you know, and

0:25:44.000 --> 0:25:47.520
<v Speaker 3>the offender is just trying to get get control it. Ultimately,

0:25:48.040 --> 0:25:51.720
<v Speaker 3>you know, in something like with Nancy, you know, it's

0:25:51.840 --> 0:25:53.679
<v Speaker 3>when is she going to die? When's she going to

0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:57.600
<v Speaker 3>stop moving? I would be looking more if there is

0:25:57.720 --> 0:26:02.880
<v Speaker 3>something really significant about the location of the stab wounds.

0:26:03.680 --> 0:26:05.400
<v Speaker 3>I mean, this could be tough, but like I have

0:26:05.480 --> 0:26:08.399
<v Speaker 3>some you know, some of these women victim cases. You

0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:11.480
<v Speaker 3>know there's some significant mutilation and you can see a

0:26:11.600 --> 0:26:16.119
<v Speaker 3>focus let's say, you know, a stabbing to the left eye.

0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:19.239
<v Speaker 3>You know, why did the offender do that? When I

0:26:19.280 --> 0:26:22.280
<v Speaker 3>see that in multiple cases, like it's a serial killer,

0:26:22.960 --> 0:26:25.399
<v Speaker 3>it's not just the number of stab wounds, but also

0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:29.760
<v Speaker 3>how is the offender utilizing that knife? And there's so

0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:32.159
<v Speaker 3>many different ways and all, you know, each case can

0:26:32.200 --> 0:26:36.080
<v Speaker 3>be different. So right now I'm going to assume that

0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:39.640
<v Speaker 3>there isn't anything that I'm going, oh, there's a significant

0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.879
<v Speaker 3>behavior with how the offender stabbed the victim. This was

0:26:43.080 --> 0:26:47.119
<v Speaker 3>more a matter of getting control over the victim and

0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:50.639
<v Speaker 3>killing the victim during the dynamics of this, you know,

0:26:50.720 --> 0:26:56.480
<v Speaker 3>offender victim interaction, the cutting of the throat, and I

0:26:56.520 --> 0:26:59.200
<v Speaker 3>would want to know why they thought he was trying

0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 3>to decap Did it appear that the knife was being

0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:06.080
<v Speaker 3>used to try to saw through the vertebrae like significant,

0:27:06.119 --> 0:27:09.199
<v Speaker 3>like to literally remove her head or are they just

0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:13.280
<v Speaker 3>assuming because you know, homicidal's throat cuts, I mean typically

0:27:13.280 --> 0:27:15.720
<v Speaker 3>go all the way through the neck with a sharp knife,

0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:18.040
<v Speaker 3>So they just maybe making an assumption he tried to

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:19.920
<v Speaker 3>cut her head off. I would say, what he's doing

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:22.879
<v Speaker 3>is he's ensuring she's dead, you know. And this is

0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:25.520
<v Speaker 3>part of what people don't recognize, you know. And I

0:27:25.560 --> 0:27:28.960
<v Speaker 3>saw this with Golden State killer Joseph DiAngelo. Just because

0:27:28.960 --> 0:27:31.800
<v Speaker 3>they're a serial killer doesn't mean that they're an expert

0:27:31.840 --> 0:27:34.760
<v Speaker 3>on how to kill somebody, right, And I saw at

0:27:34.760 --> 0:27:38.360
<v Speaker 3>DiAngelo he would check and some of his homicide victims,

0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:41.640
<v Speaker 3>even though they're bludgeoned, he's checking, he's poking them, are

0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:45.879
<v Speaker 3>you alive? With this case, that throat cut could just

0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:48.920
<v Speaker 3>be merely that offender is making sure Nancy is dead

0:27:49.040 --> 0:27:51.400
<v Speaker 3>when he or she walks out of that apartment. It's

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:56.000
<v Speaker 3>just like an offender maybe strangles a victim and then

0:27:56.040 --> 0:27:59.760
<v Speaker 3>puts a ties a ligature on the victim to ensure

0:27:59.840 --> 0:28:02.200
<v Speaker 3>that that victim is not going to come back to life.

0:28:02.359 --> 0:28:04.639
<v Speaker 2>And it sounds like she's really fighting because, as I

0:28:04.680 --> 0:28:07.080
<v Speaker 2>said before, she has several defensive wounds on her hands,

0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:09.040
<v Speaker 2>in her arms, she's got the slash on her leg.

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:11.960
<v Speaker 2>It sounds like she was really fighting. But let's go

0:28:12.000 --> 0:28:14.960
<v Speaker 2>outside the bedroom for a moment, because the police are

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:18.480
<v Speaker 2>trying to figure out what else happened in the apartment,

0:28:18.520 --> 0:28:21.000
<v Speaker 2>of anything, to just get some clues on who this

0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:23.720
<v Speaker 2>might have been. The bedroom is obviously where the scene

0:28:23.720 --> 0:28:27.800
<v Speaker 2>of the action has been, but there's nothing touched in

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:29.919
<v Speaker 2>the rest of the apartment, which I'm assuming is not

0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:34.000
<v Speaker 2>particularly big. There wasn't forced entrees I had mentioned on

0:28:34.040 --> 0:28:38.040
<v Speaker 2>her front door, and the I think robbery was pretty

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:40.560
<v Speaker 2>quickly ruled out as a motive. I think your sister

0:28:40.600 --> 0:28:43.400
<v Speaker 2>came in and identified what was there and what wasn't,

0:28:43.840 --> 0:28:46.760
<v Speaker 2>or another family member. It definitely seems like it was

0:28:46.760 --> 0:28:51.400
<v Speaker 2>sexually motivated. They found evidence of semen in the apartment,

0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:53.800
<v Speaker 2>but they were very vague about it. We don't know

0:28:53.920 --> 0:28:56.640
<v Speaker 2>who this belongs to, and it doesn't seem like they

0:28:56.680 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>collected it. They collected a lot of blood evidence includes

0:29:00.000 --> 0:29:03.440
<v Speaker 2>and of course that that masking tape, but I don't

0:29:03.440 --> 0:29:07.560
<v Speaker 2>think they collected the semen. And even though they don't

0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:11.720
<v Speaker 2>say explicitly that she was raped, there saying that there's

0:29:11.800 --> 0:29:16.320
<v Speaker 2>obviously been sexual violence that's happened here. So that's where

0:29:16.360 --> 0:29:18.280
<v Speaker 2>they settle on that this is, you know, a sexually

0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:20.560
<v Speaker 2>motivated attack. And I'm assuming you would agree with that.

0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:22.960
<v Speaker 3>You have a nude female that's what stabbed to death

0:29:22.960 --> 0:29:25.560
<v Speaker 3>in her apartment, I would say, in all likelihood it's

0:29:25.560 --> 0:29:29.880
<v Speaker 3>sexually motivated. You know. Now, could there have been let's say,

0:29:29.920 --> 0:29:33.640
<v Speaker 3>consensual sex between Nancy and the offender, whoever that is,

0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.719
<v Speaker 3>and then an argument ensues and now the offender kills Nancy,

0:29:37.920 --> 0:29:41.800
<v Speaker 3>you know, so it's the sex aspect is not related

0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:45.160
<v Speaker 3>to the violence. You had mentioned early on in the

0:29:45.200 --> 0:29:48.920
<v Speaker 3>description that she's nude except her underwear is still on.

0:29:49.400 --> 0:29:51.920
<v Speaker 3>Is it like completely on her, like she in normal,

0:29:52.240 --> 0:29:54.840
<v Speaker 3>like she's just wearing it? Yes, you know, and there's

0:29:54.880 --> 0:29:58.040
<v Speaker 3>different ways to interpret that. You know, that's part of

0:29:58.080 --> 0:30:00.480
<v Speaker 3>taking a look at blood patterns and every thing else.

0:30:00.520 --> 0:30:03.120
<v Speaker 3>Did she have that on, you know, prior to the

0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:07.440
<v Speaker 3>stabbing start. You know, it is again was her consensual interaction?

0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 3>And she starts to redress and then things go sideways.

0:30:10.840 --> 0:30:14.160
<v Speaker 3>Did the offender redresser? Because offenders do redress their victims

0:30:14.200 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 3>for whatever reason. And then of course with the semen evidence,

0:30:17.280 --> 0:30:20.000
<v Speaker 3>you know, it sounds like they're finding a semen stain

0:30:20.080 --> 0:30:23.080
<v Speaker 3>on the bedding or on a pillow.

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Your ear, the body. We don't know.

0:30:24.520 --> 0:30:28.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, until DNA technology came along, you know, it's really

0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:30.600
<v Speaker 3>hard to say, well, is that something from a prior

0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:34.520
<v Speaker 3>consensual encounter or is this something that the offender left behind.

0:30:34.960 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 3>I'm surprised that there they must just be looking at

0:30:39.320 --> 0:30:41.959
<v Speaker 3>here's a krusty stain. They could see it, but they

0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:45.320
<v Speaker 3>don't collect it. And it's typically requires the lab to

0:30:45.440 --> 0:30:49.000
<v Speaker 3>verify that, yes, that's a semen stain. But nineteen seventy

0:30:49.400 --> 0:30:53.120
<v Speaker 3>you could do very very little in terms of all

0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:55.800
<v Speaker 3>basically you could say, yeah, that semen, there's a sexual

0:30:55.840 --> 0:30:59.200
<v Speaker 3>aspect here, but you can't You couldn't really type it

0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:01.920
<v Speaker 3>back to a particular person. And of course they didn't

0:31:01.920 --> 0:31:04.800
<v Speaker 3>know about the DNA that that semen stain would have contained.

0:31:05.360 --> 0:31:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's what my question was going to be in

0:31:07.120 --> 0:31:09.760
<v Speaker 2>the seventies or earlier. What would be the motivation to

0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:13.600
<v Speaker 2>collect a semen's stain and preserve it as evidence if

0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:17.320
<v Speaker 2>the only thing we could really use biologically actually in

0:31:17.320 --> 0:31:19.800
<v Speaker 2>the seventies was blood typing and that was it. Would

0:31:19.800 --> 0:31:21.320
<v Speaker 2>they just think, well, we're just going to collect this

0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:23.000
<v Speaker 2>for some future thing or what.

0:31:23.560 --> 0:31:26.360
<v Speaker 3>It's evidence of a crime. You know, we have statutes

0:31:26.440 --> 0:31:30.480
<v Speaker 3>for you know, different sex based crimes, and so that

0:31:30.600 --> 0:31:34.000
<v Speaker 3>semen is evidence that a sexual crime had been committed,

0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:36.960
<v Speaker 3>depending on where it's deposited and everything else. So that's

0:31:37.120 --> 0:31:41.640
<v Speaker 3>just part of normal proper crime scene investigative processes. You

0:31:41.680 --> 0:31:45.920
<v Speaker 3>collect this evidence, even though at that point in the

0:31:46.000 --> 0:31:50.360
<v Speaker 3>nineteen seventies you couldn't do much in Nancy's case. You know,

0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:52.480
<v Speaker 3>right now, I don't know enough about the semen stain,

0:31:52.520 --> 0:31:56.320
<v Speaker 3>but it's that is a significant item of evidence, and

0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:59.760
<v Speaker 3>it may just come back to you know, her fiance

0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.840
<v Speaker 3>from a prior sexual encounter, or it could be the offender,

0:32:04.200 --> 0:32:06.560
<v Speaker 3>you know, and that could be what could have been

0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:08.720
<v Speaker 3>used to solve the case if it had been collected.

0:32:09.800 --> 0:32:12.720
<v Speaker 2>Now this question might seem a little odd, but would

0:32:12.720 --> 0:32:15.920
<v Speaker 2>you be able to tell within a certain time period

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:19.520
<v Speaker 2>if the man who contributed to the semen if he

0:32:19.600 --> 0:32:23.200
<v Speaker 2>was sterile or not compared to you know, a different man,

0:32:23.240 --> 0:32:26.560
<v Speaker 2>and would that be in some case be somewhat helpful

0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:29.160
<v Speaker 2>at least like exonerate the husband or something. If there's

0:32:29.280 --> 0:32:34.160
<v Speaker 2>clearly a sample where the semen is not normal.

0:32:34.120 --> 0:32:39.720
<v Speaker 3>Well, the forensic testing does not address fertility per se.

0:32:40.200 --> 0:32:42.320
<v Speaker 3>What we look at is we look at are there

0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:46.680
<v Speaker 3>sperm present? You know, So if we have a stain

0:32:47.680 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 3>and are able to through testing determined this is a

0:32:51.080 --> 0:32:55.160
<v Speaker 3>semen stain, but it's a sperm there's no sperm present, Well,

0:32:55.200 --> 0:32:58.080
<v Speaker 3>that could be due to a genetic condition, but often

0:32:58.120 --> 0:33:01.360
<v Speaker 3>it's due to a vasectomy. And so now that could

0:33:01.360 --> 0:33:04.760
<v Speaker 3>be you know expressed. We're now during an interview, you know,

0:33:04.840 --> 0:33:07.680
<v Speaker 3>let's say, you know, the fiancee Ferris was like, have

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:10.480
<v Speaker 3>you had a physeectomy? You know, and so even back

0:33:10.520 --> 0:33:13.920
<v Speaker 3>in nineteen seventy you could say, okay, so that possibly

0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:16.840
<v Speaker 3>is Ferris a semen there from a prior consentual encounter.

0:33:17.040 --> 0:33:20.600
<v Speaker 3>Because it's a it doesn't have the sperm present. In

0:33:20.680 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 3>part I mean, there's I could go into a you know,

0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:25.239
<v Speaker 3>much deeper dive in terms of how we you know,

0:33:25.360 --> 0:33:29.360
<v Speaker 3>interpret you know what we're seeing underneath the microscope when

0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:32.160
<v Speaker 3>it comes to semen, when it comes to sperm, when

0:33:32.200 --> 0:33:34.120
<v Speaker 3>the sperm was deposited, et cetera.

0:33:34.480 --> 0:33:37.200
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about now, blood one of my favorite things.

0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:40.480
<v Speaker 2>So let's talk about the exit and what they think happened. So,

0:33:40.640 --> 0:33:44.720
<v Speaker 2>no front door that's been locked, no violence outside of

0:33:44.720 --> 0:33:48.000
<v Speaker 2>the bedroom, no robbery outside of the bedroom, and then

0:33:48.040 --> 0:33:51.760
<v Speaker 2>how does this person get out? So police look and

0:33:51.800 --> 0:33:54.280
<v Speaker 2>there's a bloody trail. And I'm going to put trail

0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:57.800
<v Speaker 2>in quotes because it sounds more like droplets. But okay,

0:33:58.080 --> 0:34:01.320
<v Speaker 2>you can see where this person went. There's a bloody

0:34:01.360 --> 0:34:04.520
<v Speaker 2>trail leading through the sliding glass door. So she's got

0:34:04.560 --> 0:34:06.560
<v Speaker 2>a door in her bedroom. There's a balcony on the

0:34:06.560 --> 0:34:09.480
<v Speaker 2>other side of her bedroom, and then there's, you know,

0:34:09.560 --> 0:34:12.760
<v Speaker 2>a staircase that goes down. They see this bloody trail

0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:16.280
<v Speaker 2>going from the sliding glass door that opens to her balcony,

0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:20.040
<v Speaker 2>looks out onto the back of the apartment building, and

0:34:20.239 --> 0:34:23.120
<v Speaker 2>on the balcony they find another piece of that bloody

0:34:23.320 --> 0:34:26.239
<v Speaker 2>tape that I showed you before. It seems like they're right.

0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:28.440
<v Speaker 2>He must have put it on several of his fingers

0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:31.160
<v Speaker 2>all of his fingers, which I mean, just as a

0:34:31.200 --> 0:34:35.600
<v Speaker 2>side note, just seems a little laborious or inefficient or something.

0:34:35.840 --> 0:34:37.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't think i've ever heard that before, somebody doing

0:34:38.000 --> 0:34:38.680
<v Speaker 2>something like that.

0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:42.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, No, it's odd. You know, it's almost as if

0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:46.520
<v Speaker 3>you remember those true detective magazines. Yeah, you know, it's possible.

0:34:46.560 --> 0:34:48.759
<v Speaker 3>This guy was just reading a story and you know

0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:51.480
<v Speaker 3>in that story, you know the offender and you know

0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:53.960
<v Speaker 3>in the story had done something like that, so he thought, well,

0:34:53.960 --> 0:34:57.040
<v Speaker 3>that's a way to possibly do it. Seems odd, but

0:34:57.160 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 3>it appears that you know, masking tape is not very

0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:03.000
<v Speaker 3>sticky to begin with, but also if it's now truly

0:35:03.040 --> 0:35:07.880
<v Speaker 3>getting saturated with blood, it's now coming off right, and

0:35:07.960 --> 0:35:09.719
<v Speaker 3>that appears to be what's happening here.

0:35:10.200 --> 0:35:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and it's great evidence, thank goodness. So you

0:35:13.960 --> 0:35:16.520
<v Speaker 2>know they collect that tape. Also, when you were talking

0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.920
<v Speaker 2>about that, it reminds me of all of the bad,

0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:22.160
<v Speaker 2>botched kidnappings that we've dealt with on this show, where

0:35:22.200 --> 0:35:26.480
<v Speaker 2>it's clear people have watched bad, hard boiled detective movies

0:35:26.640 --> 0:35:28.680
<v Speaker 2>or read the books and they think that you're supposed

0:35:28.719 --> 0:35:31.239
<v Speaker 2>to make things as complicated as possible, and then you

0:35:31.280 --> 0:35:35.839
<v Speaker 2>know it all goes awry, the bloody trail drops down

0:35:35.880 --> 0:35:38.960
<v Speaker 2>about thirteen feet onto the ground below, where the killer

0:35:39.040 --> 0:35:42.879
<v Speaker 2>appears to have left some shoe prints. So I don't think.

0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 2>Let me look real quick. So he's on the balcony,

0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:50.400
<v Speaker 2>there's the bloody tape, and then the bloody trail drops

0:35:50.440 --> 0:35:53.120
<v Speaker 2>off about thirteen feet. Okay, So I'm gonna go back

0:35:53.160 --> 0:35:55.360
<v Speaker 2>and say I was not right. There was not a staircase,

0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:58.320
<v Speaker 2>so he would have had to have dropped down thirteen

0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:02.040
<v Speaker 2>feet onto the ground and that's where the drops commence.

0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:05.959
<v Speaker 2>And they said that the killer appeared to have left

0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:09.200
<v Speaker 2>shoe prints in the dirt. Another good thing. They said

0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:12.760
<v Speaker 2>that they were made by a quote casual boating shoe.

0:36:12.880 --> 0:36:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I almost look that up because I don't know what

0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.680
<v Speaker 2>that is. It seems kind of speculative, but maybe not.

0:36:17.880 --> 0:36:20.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean, would you you would have now been able

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.319
<v Speaker 2>to identify kind of a combat boot versus you know,

0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:26.040
<v Speaker 2>a lady's shoe, So I don't Maybe this isn't speculative.

0:36:26.440 --> 0:36:30.520
<v Speaker 3>Well, we use outsai the you know, the tread patterns

0:36:30.640 --> 0:36:33.720
<v Speaker 3>all the time to determine make and model the shoe

0:36:33.800 --> 0:36:37.560
<v Speaker 3>and even possibly the size range of the shoe that

0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:40.920
<v Speaker 3>the offender was wearing. So I'm not sure what the

0:36:41.000 --> 0:36:43.600
<v Speaker 3>tread pattern for this would look like. I'm envisioning like

0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:46.600
<v Speaker 3>a deck shoe. He almost like a topsider type shoe.

0:36:46.960 --> 0:36:50.799
<v Speaker 3>And so maybe there was sufficient detail that indicated this

0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:53.560
<v Speaker 3>is the type of shoe that they're looking for. You know,

0:36:53.600 --> 0:36:56.320
<v Speaker 3>in this day and age, there are you know, tread

0:36:56.520 --> 0:37:00.319
<v Speaker 3>databases that we can we would end up like back

0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:03.040
<v Speaker 3>when I was doing this in the nineties, we would

0:37:03.400 --> 0:37:06.400
<v Speaker 3>take a photo of the bottom of the shoe impression

0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:08.480
<v Speaker 3>that we got from the you know cast at the

0:37:08.480 --> 0:37:11.400
<v Speaker 3>crime scene, and that could go to the FBI, and

0:37:11.440 --> 0:37:14.080
<v Speaker 3>then they could search their database and give us a

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:16.319
<v Speaker 3>list of possible makes and models of shoes. And then

0:37:16.360 --> 0:37:19.680
<v Speaker 3>now I'm at a shoe store flipping shoes trying to

0:37:19.760 --> 0:37:23.120
<v Speaker 3>find you know what match. So I'm imagining they probably

0:37:23.200 --> 0:37:24.760
<v Speaker 3>went through that type of process.

0:37:25.600 --> 0:37:29.040
<v Speaker 2>So, because I am a crack researcher and know how

0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:33.080
<v Speaker 2>to type into Google it's a moccasin, I would not

0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:36.200
<v Speaker 2>call this a boat shoe these days, but I mean

0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:38.719
<v Speaker 2>that's what they were. So this is would you think

0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:39.520
<v Speaker 2>this is distinct?

0:37:39.920 --> 0:37:43.319
<v Speaker 3>Well, you know, that's exactly like when I said topsider,

0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:46.640
<v Speaker 3>that's exactly what I was envisioning is that style of shoe.

0:37:46.800 --> 0:37:49.160
<v Speaker 3>You know, in terms of what's unique or not, it's

0:37:49.280 --> 0:37:51.480
<v Speaker 3>that tread pattern. You know, what did they recover at

0:37:51.520 --> 0:37:54.160
<v Speaker 3>the crime scene. You know, is there something unique about

0:37:54.239 --> 0:37:58.560
<v Speaker 3>the tread pattern from a particular brand of this topsider

0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:01.399
<v Speaker 3>boat shoe or how they go? Okay, it's this type

0:38:01.400 --> 0:38:05.160
<v Speaker 3>of shoe. On how how rare is this shoe? You know,

0:38:05.239 --> 0:38:09.399
<v Speaker 3>most shoes are not very rare, so oftentimes you don't

0:38:09.400 --> 0:38:12.440
<v Speaker 3>get investigative leads, but you have to at least consider

0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:16.040
<v Speaker 3>there's a chance that this is an unusual shoe. You know,

0:38:16.080 --> 0:38:18.759
<v Speaker 3>where is it sold? Is there a customer you know,

0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:21.239
<v Speaker 3>database that you can get from the store, like they

0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:24.760
<v Speaker 3>use credit cards and you start checking the box.

0:38:25.160 --> 0:38:27.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't know how helpful that shoe was, but

0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.880
<v Speaker 2>I thought the boat shoe part of it was interesting. Okay,

0:38:31.040 --> 0:38:34.160
<v Speaker 2>the trail of blood goes from the shoe print over

0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:38.480
<v Speaker 2>to it wraps around the apartment building on the sidewalk

0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:42.279
<v Speaker 2>and ends in the parking lot. So then, of course

0:38:42.320 --> 0:38:44.879
<v Speaker 2>the police say, because it ends in the parking lot

0:38:44.920 --> 0:38:47.880
<v Speaker 2>and goes nowhere else, that suggests that the person hopped

0:38:47.880 --> 0:38:50.399
<v Speaker 2>in a car and left. Does that make sense to you.

0:38:50.760 --> 0:38:53.200
<v Speaker 3>It does, and at all, you know, the extent of

0:38:53.239 --> 0:38:56.359
<v Speaker 3>this trail is telling me the offender is bleeding. So

0:38:56.840 --> 0:38:59.520
<v Speaker 3>you think about Okay, let's say you have a bloody knife. Well,

0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:03.040
<v Speaker 3>there's only so much of the victim's blood on this knife,

0:39:03.080 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 3>so as you are walking away, there may be a

0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:08.160
<v Speaker 3>few drips coming off of it, but it's not like

0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:11.600
<v Speaker 3>there's a source of blood that's constantly feeding it, so

0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.480
<v Speaker 3>that trail diminishes over time. Here you have a trail

0:39:15.560 --> 0:39:20.120
<v Speaker 3>that's going out of the victim's apartment, down onto the

0:39:20.160 --> 0:39:23.080
<v Speaker 3>ground and around the apartment complex of the parking lot

0:39:23.480 --> 0:39:25.719
<v Speaker 3>that's not coming just off the knife. To me, that

0:39:25.840 --> 0:39:29.200
<v Speaker 3>tells me he possibly got cut on his hand and

0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:32.359
<v Speaker 3>is now as he's fleeing the victim's apartment, leaving his

0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:35.320
<v Speaker 3>own blood behind. That is obviously key evidence.

0:39:35.680 --> 0:39:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think he's regretting putting those little finger coverings

0:39:39.040 --> 0:39:41.560
<v Speaker 2>on the tops of this. I mean, that just does

0:39:41.600 --> 0:39:45.080
<v Speaker 2>not seem smart. Okay, So what they think happened is

0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:48.080
<v Speaker 2>that the offender climbed onto a fence which is just

0:39:48.160 --> 0:39:51.400
<v Speaker 2>outside of Nancy's apartment, pulled himself over the railing of

0:39:51.440 --> 0:39:55.320
<v Speaker 2>her balcony, and then entered her bedroom through the sliding

0:39:55.320 --> 0:39:58.600
<v Speaker 2>glass store. I'll explain, Okay, the sliding glass door and

0:39:58.640 --> 0:40:01.440
<v Speaker 2>why they think that it's simply nobody in the seventies

0:40:01.480 --> 0:40:04.279
<v Speaker 2>locked their doors, because people did lock their doors, so

0:40:04.320 --> 0:40:06.480
<v Speaker 2>given the trail of blood, this is also how they

0:40:06.520 --> 0:40:07.719
<v Speaker 2>think he exited.

0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:08.399
<v Speaker 3>Now.

0:40:08.440 --> 0:40:10.439
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how helpful this photo is. I feel

0:40:10.440 --> 0:40:12.200
<v Speaker 2>like I say that all the time. But if you

0:40:12.239 --> 0:40:17.480
<v Speaker 2>look on page four of your nifty photo package, you'll

0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:21.160
<v Speaker 2>see the back of her building trying to figure out privacy.

0:40:21.360 --> 0:40:23.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm assuming we might be looking. I don't know where

0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:25.560
<v Speaker 2>the parking lot would be, but you tell people what

0:40:25.600 --> 0:40:26.200
<v Speaker 2>you see here.

0:40:26.680 --> 0:40:28.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so this you know I'm looking at. It's a

0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:33.960
<v Speaker 3>black and white photo. Two story apartment complex. Appears that

0:40:34.560 --> 0:40:41.000
<v Speaker 3>the upper story there's windows and balconies and so this sounds,

0:40:41.080 --> 0:40:43.759
<v Speaker 3>you know, like the description of the sliding door for

0:40:43.960 --> 0:40:49.319
<v Speaker 3>Nancy's apartment. There appears to be this fence that's in

0:40:49.360 --> 0:40:52.160
<v Speaker 3>the foreground a little bit, and then pass that fence,

0:40:52.360 --> 0:40:54.879
<v Speaker 3>which is very much in the foreground. There's a lot

0:40:54.920 --> 0:40:59.680
<v Speaker 3>of vegetation, like biny type of vegetation growing up on

0:40:59.800 --> 0:41:04.200
<v Speaker 3>two scaffolding of some sort, you know, So you know,

0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:07.319
<v Speaker 3>if the offenders leaving through this, you know, this is

0:41:07.360 --> 0:41:11.240
<v Speaker 3>a he's possibly getting some of this, you know, vegetable matter,

0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:14.320
<v Speaker 3>you know, on his clothing, caught up in his shoes,

0:41:14.400 --> 0:41:17.120
<v Speaker 3>et cetera. So that would be something from a trace

0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:19.359
<v Speaker 3>evidence standpoint I would be paying attention to.

0:41:19.640 --> 0:41:23.240
<v Speaker 2>I love forensic botany. I'm so fascinated by forensic botany.

0:41:23.239 --> 0:41:24.360
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, yeah.

0:41:24.280 --> 0:41:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So now you kind of know. And also you

0:41:26.560 --> 0:41:29.319
<v Speaker 2>can see there's privacy, so much of it has overgrown.

0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:32.680
<v Speaker 2>It's not front and center. It seems like there's especially

0:41:32.680 --> 0:41:35.080
<v Speaker 2>because if this happens late at night, he probably is

0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:38.319
<v Speaker 2>able to slip over being unseen. And we don't have

0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:41.120
<v Speaker 2>witnesses right now who say they've seen anything that the

0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:44.920
<v Speaker 2>police have spoken to. Okay, so they collect the pieces

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:48.120
<v Speaker 2>of rolled up tape and they say they can't pull

0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:50.680
<v Speaker 2>any prints off of these pieces of rolled up tape,

0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:54.799
<v Speaker 2>and they can't produce any prints from the scene. So

0:41:55.280 --> 0:41:57.480
<v Speaker 2>does that make sense? Would that be tough though from

0:41:57.520 --> 0:42:00.160
<v Speaker 2>what you saw those kind of band aid looking things.

0:42:00.560 --> 0:42:02.840
<v Speaker 2>Plus they're not finding any prints at the scene that

0:42:02.840 --> 0:42:03.480
<v Speaker 2>they can use.

0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:06.359
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I would say, you know, it's possible that if

0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:09.800
<v Speaker 3>he had that tape on all his fingers. It would

0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:13.719
<v Speaker 3>prevent the fingertips from leaving prints, you know, but we

0:42:13.840 --> 0:42:17.520
<v Speaker 3>use all the ridge patterns, so the palms, you know,

0:42:17.640 --> 0:42:21.560
<v Speaker 3>the interdigital area, all of that surface area of your

0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:25.640
<v Speaker 3>hands can also leave laytent prince behind that can be

0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:30.239
<v Speaker 3>used to identify you. Just covering the fingertips is not

0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:33.160
<v Speaker 3>necessarily going to be as effective as what this offender

0:42:33.239 --> 0:42:35.400
<v Speaker 3>might might think. Now, if they're saying that they're not

0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:40.280
<v Speaker 3>developing or finding prints, you can go into any residence.

0:42:40.440 --> 0:42:43.560
<v Speaker 3>You're going to find prints. It's just that are they

0:42:43.680 --> 0:42:47.279
<v Speaker 3>from the offender? And in this case, I would be

0:42:47.320 --> 0:42:49.280
<v Speaker 3>looking to see I do I have any ridge detail

0:42:49.280 --> 0:42:52.359
<v Speaker 3>in the victim's blood, because now that tells me that's

0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:55.640
<v Speaker 3>a focus area for me, versus some random print that

0:42:55.719 --> 0:42:59.120
<v Speaker 3>was deposited, you know, by you know, Ferris, you know,

0:42:59.160 --> 0:43:01.200
<v Speaker 3>coming over to Nancy Place three weeks ago.

0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:04.240
<v Speaker 2>Do my favor and go back to your photos because

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:06.359
<v Speaker 2>I forgot to ask you something. Go to page two,

0:43:06.560 --> 0:43:09.720
<v Speaker 2>the body positioning one. I want to ask you about

0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:12.359
<v Speaker 2>blood spatter and the patterns that you and I had

0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:15.560
<v Speaker 2>talked about. So this is on a carpet, a carpet

0:43:15.640 --> 0:43:21.400
<v Speaker 2>versus linoleum versus wood. What makes life easier for investigators

0:43:21.400 --> 0:43:24.120
<v Speaker 2>when they're trying to look at these patterns with blood.

0:43:24.239 --> 0:43:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Is it the carpet, because once blood's in there, even

0:43:27.960 --> 0:43:31.200
<v Speaker 2>stomping over it might not drag it out. I would

0:43:31.239 --> 0:43:32.840
<v Speaker 2>think wood floors would be terrible.

0:43:33.200 --> 0:43:39.120
<v Speaker 3>Well, the easiest is typically your non porous surfaces. So

0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:42.320
<v Speaker 3>when you start talking, let's say you're vinyl or linoleum floor.

0:43:43.000 --> 0:43:48.120
<v Speaker 3>You know there the blood isn't necessarily getting disturbed. You

0:43:48.200 --> 0:43:51.439
<v Speaker 3>imagine a blood drop hitting a vinyl floor. It makes

0:43:51.480 --> 0:43:55.840
<v Speaker 3>a nice circular drop pattern, you know, that tells me

0:43:55.880 --> 0:44:00.120
<v Speaker 3>it hit that vinyl floor perparticularly, versus something that's oblog

0:44:00.280 --> 0:44:03.400
<v Speaker 3>tells me it struck that floor at an angle. And

0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:06.759
<v Speaker 3>so I can start interpreting movements based off of that

0:44:06.840 --> 0:44:10.040
<v Speaker 3>type of pattern off of that surface versus a drip

0:44:10.239 --> 0:44:14.680
<v Speaker 3>onto carpet. It just gets absorbed into the texture of

0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:17.800
<v Speaker 3>the carpet. And if you do have a textured surface,

0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.360
<v Speaker 3>like a very heavily grained wood floor, that can also

0:44:21.440 --> 0:44:25.000
<v Speaker 3>disrupt some of the interpretive aspects of the blood patterns.

0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:28.080
<v Speaker 3>So the smooth, non porous surfaces are usually the best.

0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:28.960
<v Speaker 3>Good to know.

0:44:29.000 --> 0:44:30.920
<v Speaker 2>I had been wondering about that and I was waiting

0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.360
<v Speaker 2>for kind of a carpety type case. I knew that

0:44:33.360 --> 0:44:36.759
<v Speaker 2>would jog my memory. Okay, so you know, as I said,

0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:40.600
<v Speaker 2>they collect the blood, and they collect all of the

0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:44.160
<v Speaker 2>little finger coverings that he made, and you know, they're

0:44:44.200 --> 0:44:46.719
<v Speaker 2>hoping that if they find it an offender, obviously they're going

0:44:46.760 --> 0:44:49.160
<v Speaker 2>to be able to compare the blood type, which I

0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:51.719
<v Speaker 2>know is not always helpful. It was helpful with the

0:44:51.760 --> 0:44:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Jeffrey McDonald case. This time period actually could have been

0:44:55.080 --> 0:44:57.880
<v Speaker 2>this year with four different people in the house with

0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:01.800
<v Speaker 2>four different types of blood. But generally, I mean, was

0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:04.120
<v Speaker 2>was blood typing something that would break a case? Do

0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:08.000
<v Speaker 2>you think before DNA came along? Or was it really fingerprints?

0:45:08.640 --> 0:45:10.680
<v Speaker 3>It's fingerprints back in the day. Now you know the

0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:14.120
<v Speaker 3>ABO typing every now and then you'd have somebody who's

0:45:14.280 --> 0:45:17.240
<v Speaker 3>you know, type B, you know, which is four percent

0:45:17.280 --> 0:45:20.120
<v Speaker 3>of the population roughly, but most of the time you

0:45:20.160 --> 0:45:23.439
<v Speaker 3>are dealing with A or O, you know, and that's

0:45:23.480 --> 0:45:26.440
<v Speaker 3>most of the population. And then there was other things

0:45:26.480 --> 0:45:30.360
<v Speaker 3>as the nineteen seventies progress, there's other types of typing

0:45:30.440 --> 0:45:33.920
<v Speaker 3>that we would do, enzyme typing, protein typing, and so

0:45:34.360 --> 0:45:38.480
<v Speaker 3>if you had sufficient evidence blood evidence behind you could

0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:44.080
<v Speaker 3>generate a better, more discriminating profile. But it's was nothing

0:45:44.280 --> 0:45:47.200
<v Speaker 3>like you know what we can do with DNA, never

0:45:47.239 --> 0:45:49.640
<v Speaker 3>even approach that. But you could at least say, okay,

0:45:49.800 --> 0:45:52.160
<v Speaker 3>this blood trail that's leading out to the parking lot,

0:45:52.360 --> 0:45:54.879
<v Speaker 3>well that's different than the victim's blood. And so now

0:45:54.920 --> 0:45:57.600
<v Speaker 3>you're excited and we go okay, so we've got a

0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:00.239
<v Speaker 3>fender blood and what type is it? And then now

0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:03.719
<v Speaker 3>you start talking to you know, potential suspects and part

0:46:03.719 --> 0:46:05.799
<v Speaker 3>of what you could do, you know, back in the day,

0:46:05.840 --> 0:46:08.080
<v Speaker 3>you could either get a direct blood sample, or you

0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:11.719
<v Speaker 3>could determine secretor status and through their saliva determine their

0:46:11.800 --> 0:46:14.600
<v Speaker 3>their blood type if they're a secretor you know, so

0:46:14.680 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 3>there's there's ways to more rapidly screen, you know, the

0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.640
<v Speaker 3>suspects using that blood type. Most of the time, it

0:46:21.719 --> 0:46:26.160
<v Speaker 3>really didn't. You could you could eliminate, you could exclude,

0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:29.560
<v Speaker 3>but the inclusion was so weak it didn't make a

0:46:29.600 --> 0:46:31.080
<v Speaker 3>big difference in the cases.

0:46:31.320 --> 0:46:33.640
<v Speaker 2>Well, let's see what you think about this next pieces

0:46:33.680 --> 0:46:36.680
<v Speaker 2>of evidence. Here we have earwitnesses. Okay, they're trying to

0:46:36.760 --> 0:46:40.800
<v Speaker 2>establish a timeline. They have interviewed in the one month,

0:46:41.280 --> 0:46:44.719
<v Speaker 2>so the month of October and then intwo when she

0:46:44.760 --> 0:46:46.919
<v Speaker 2>was supposed to be married, and of November. They speak

0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:49.840
<v Speaker 2>to more than five hundred people, and this includes a

0:46:49.840 --> 0:46:52.640
<v Speaker 2>neighbor who says that she thought she heard a baby's

0:46:52.719 --> 0:46:57.080
<v Speaker 2>cry on the night that she was murdered, followed by

0:46:57.440 --> 0:47:01.080
<v Speaker 2>hurried footsteps. And then there's another neighbor who heard a

0:47:01.120 --> 0:47:04.640
<v Speaker 2>car pulling out of the complex. If these reports have

0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:07.600
<v Speaker 2>anything to do with Nancy at all, this puts her

0:47:07.680 --> 0:47:10.600
<v Speaker 2>murder or the attack and the murder somewhere between one

0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:13.839
<v Speaker 2>am and two thirty am Monday morning, and then she's

0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:16.319
<v Speaker 2>found some like seven or eight hours later. Okay, so

0:47:16.320 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 2>what do you think about that?

0:47:17.280 --> 0:47:19.800
<v Speaker 3>Well, that's probably as good as what you're going to get,

0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:23.120
<v Speaker 3>you know, in terms of this baby's cry, of course,

0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:25.800
<v Speaker 3>could be Nancy's, you know, screaming as she's being attacked.

0:47:26.400 --> 0:47:29.439
<v Speaker 3>In the hurried footsteps. I mean, this ear witness, of course,

0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:33.439
<v Speaker 3>is not necessarily going to know what law enforcement knows.

0:47:33.480 --> 0:47:35.760
<v Speaker 3>And so if it's a proper interview of the witness,

0:47:36.360 --> 0:47:41.040
<v Speaker 3>she is relaying sounds that are lining up with the

0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:43.880
<v Speaker 3>physical evidence with the crime scene. So it kind of

0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:47.239
<v Speaker 3>gives a level of veracity to what she's hearing as

0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:51.680
<v Speaker 3>being related to Nancy being killed and the offender getting

0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:52.160
<v Speaker 3>out of there.

0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:56.200
<v Speaker 2>There is a report of an unfamiliar prowler in the

0:47:56.320 --> 0:47:58.920
<v Speaker 2>area around this time. They're not saying this night, but

0:47:59.000 --> 0:48:01.719
<v Speaker 2>around this time. So this is one of the more

0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 2>vague descriptions. Five foot nine, one hundred and seventy pounds

0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:11.200
<v Speaker 2>having a Glenn Campbell style haircut. Okay, right, because you

0:48:11.239 --> 0:48:13.040
<v Speaker 2>had that look on your face, I got you a

0:48:13.080 --> 0:48:15.560
<v Speaker 2>photo of Glenn Campbell so you could see his haircut.

0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:16.600
<v Speaker 2>That's on page five.

0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:19.000
<v Speaker 3>Well, I can actually, you know what, I actually can.

0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:21.960
<v Speaker 3>I can remember what he looked like. You did. I

0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:23.480
<v Speaker 3>think I know what you're talking about.

0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:25.520
<v Speaker 2>It's a smart cut.

0:48:25.800 --> 0:48:28.520
<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, no, I absolutely, that's exactly what I was

0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:32.040
<v Speaker 3>I was saying. Now, this is a fairly popular hairstyle

0:48:32.120 --> 0:48:34.760
<v Speaker 3>for guys in the nineteen seventy, so it really isn't

0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:38.719
<v Speaker 3>something that is all that useful. But that's interesting.

0:48:39.400 --> 0:48:41.320
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you know, I think it's making a comeback

0:48:41.360 --> 0:48:43.800
<v Speaker 2>because I feel like half the boys at my kids'

0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:46.360
<v Speaker 2>school have this sort of haircut. Now, if you go

0:48:46.480 --> 0:48:50.399
<v Speaker 2>right below that, but don't go past page six, you'll

0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:54.239
<v Speaker 2>see the sketch Okay, so this is what somebody said

0:48:54.239 --> 0:48:56.759
<v Speaker 2>the prowler looked like. Who may or may not have

0:48:56.800 --> 0:48:59.240
<v Speaker 2>anything to do with this case, but we like looking

0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:02.560
<v Speaker 2>at sketches and from sketch artists, and you know, you

0:49:02.640 --> 0:49:04.600
<v Speaker 2>tell me, on a scale of one to ten compared

0:49:04.600 --> 0:49:05.880
<v Speaker 2>to the other ones we've had, what do you think

0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:06.680
<v Speaker 2>about this sketch.

0:49:07.239 --> 0:49:10.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm having a hard time seeing how they generated this.

0:49:10.560 --> 0:49:13.400
<v Speaker 3>If this was through a what did we call him?

0:49:13.400 --> 0:49:17.640
<v Speaker 3>It was? You had these identa sketches, these kits that

0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:21.520
<v Speaker 3>had sort of standardized eyes and nose, and you could

0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:24.080
<v Speaker 3>kind of piece like a jigsaw puzzle, like.

0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:27.239
<v Speaker 2>A Mister Potato Head for offenders.

0:49:26.320 --> 0:49:28.200
<v Speaker 3>Sort of yeah, you know, and so the you know,

0:49:28.239 --> 0:49:30.279
<v Speaker 3>the the witness would sit there and say, no, the

0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 3>eyes are bigger or smaller, and they would just swap

0:49:32.239 --> 0:49:36.239
<v Speaker 3>out those pieces here, you know, because it almost looks

0:49:36.280 --> 0:49:38.400
<v Speaker 3>like that's what it is. I just can't see because

0:49:38.440 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 3>you could normally see the kind of the lines between

0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:46.960
<v Speaker 3>the different parts. But he doesn't look very generic. You know.

0:49:47.520 --> 0:49:51.160
<v Speaker 3>There appears to be some facial details, you know, sort

0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:55.560
<v Speaker 3>of this large round chin and you know, the bigger eyes,

0:49:55.640 --> 0:49:58.399
<v Speaker 3>and of course that hairstyle to where I could see

0:49:58.400 --> 0:50:02.120
<v Speaker 3>where that that might be a decent enough sketch for

0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:04.400
<v Speaker 3>somebody go oh, I think I know who that is.

0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:08.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, we'll see if it's helpful at all. So where

0:50:08.520 --> 0:50:11.200
<v Speaker 2>we are now is police and Sacramento are trying to

0:50:11.200 --> 0:50:13.680
<v Speaker 2>find this woman. Clearly they're working hard at it. They've

0:50:13.680 --> 0:50:16.880
<v Speaker 2>interviewed five hundred people, and they are going to now

0:50:16.920 --> 0:50:20.720
<v Speaker 2>start looking at her inner circle, so her fiance, her friends,

0:50:20.760 --> 0:50:23.920
<v Speaker 2>they look at her own father. They're really digging around here.

0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:27.759
<v Speaker 2>So we are also going to need to talk a

0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:31.160
<v Speaker 2>little bit about another murder that happens that is very

0:50:31.200 --> 0:50:36.400
<v Speaker 2>close and is very familiar, and it makes police wonder

0:50:36.680 --> 0:50:41.000
<v Speaker 2>if there's a serial killer at work in nineteen seventy Sacramento.

0:50:41.680 --> 0:50:43.840
<v Speaker 2>But this is all stuff we have to talk about

0:50:44.000 --> 0:50:48.280
<v Speaker 2>next week. Of course, I know you like this case.

0:50:48.320 --> 0:50:50.200
<v Speaker 2>You really you perk up with it, so I know

0:50:50.280 --> 0:50:53.839
<v Speaker 2>this is kind of your thing. I find it so interesting,

0:50:54.120 --> 0:50:56.560
<v Speaker 2>you know how cases were investigated, especially in the nineteen

0:50:56.600 --> 0:50:58.719
<v Speaker 2>seventies when we were sort of on the edge of

0:50:58.760 --> 0:51:00.960
<v Speaker 2>really being able to figure out some pretty cool stuff.

0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.640
<v Speaker 2>But just please collect all your evidence, even if you think,

0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:07.200
<v Speaker 2>Lord knows what people are not collecting right now, which

0:51:07.239 --> 0:51:10.880
<v Speaker 2>could be incredibly helpful in forty years with technology. So

0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:12.840
<v Speaker 2>I think that to me, so far as the lesson,

0:51:12.880 --> 0:51:14.719
<v Speaker 2>please collect the semen sample.

0:51:14.600 --> 0:51:17.879
<v Speaker 3>Yes please? So okay, So it sounds like we have

0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:19.799
<v Speaker 3>another case that I'm going to listen to and we'll

0:51:19.840 --> 0:51:20.920
<v Speaker 3>see if it's related or not.

0:51:21.239 --> 0:51:22.919
<v Speaker 2>You got it? Okay, see you next week.

0:51:23.160 --> 0:51:23.960
<v Speaker 3>All right? Sounds good.

0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:30.960
<v Speaker 1>This has been an exactly right production.

0:51:31.040 --> 0:51:34.200
<v Speaker 3>For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot

0:51:34.239 --> 0:51:36.440
<v Speaker 3>com slash Buried Bones sources.

0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:38.960
<v Speaker 1>Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

0:51:39.280 --> 0:51:43.520
<v Speaker 3>Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

0:51:43.800 --> 0:51:46.000
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0:51:46.360 --> 0:51:48.600
<v Speaker 3>Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

0:51:48.880 --> 0:51:50.920
<v Speaker 1>Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:55.320
<v Speaker 3>Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

0:51:55.600 --> 0:51:58.960
<v Speaker 2>You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

0:51:59.080 --> 0:51:59.800
<v Speaker 2>Buried Bones.

0:52:00.680 --> 0:52:03.240
<v Speaker 3>Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

0:52:03.239 --> 0:52:05.279
<v Speaker 3>Age story of murder and the race to decode the

0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:07.640
<v Speaker 3>criminal mind, is available now, and.

0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:12.360
<v Speaker 2>Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases.

0:52:12.560 --> 0:52:13.719
<v Speaker 1>Is also available now.

0:52:14.040 --> 0:52:17.719
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