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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey Paul, Hey Kate, how are you.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing well. How about you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing good. It's getting warm here, so it gets

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Speaker 3: a warm in this office.

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Speaker 2: I think we've all heard about that, the man cave.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you're calling it in an office now. I

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Speaker 2: think it was usually just your man cave. But for video,

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Speaker 2: it's a little different.

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Speaker 3: Right, No, that's absolutely it. I'm hoping not to start sweating.

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Speaker 2: No, me too. I had to turn my little air

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Speaker 2: conditioner off in the cottage. It's going to be steamy

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Speaker 2: in here. Pretty soon, but I'll just talk faster.

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Speaker 3: No big deal, all right, I'll try to keep up.

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Speaker 2: So I've been working on some stress relief stuff. And

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Speaker 2: I know you do a lot of outdoor stuff, and

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Speaker 2: I do too. My mom is a huge gardener, and

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Speaker 2: so I sort of started picking up gardening and I'll

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Speaker 2: enjoy it. Do any planting or you and your wife

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Speaker 2: do any kind of vegetables or anything out there.

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Speaker 3: Well, living in California, I did a lot of not

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Speaker 3: so much gardening, but a lot of landscaping. I installed

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Speaker 3: multiple backyards, from the sprinkler system, degrading to building retaining

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Speaker 3: walls and planting all the various you know, types of

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Speaker 3: trees and shrubs and stuff. I did try at one

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Speaker 3: point to have a little vegetable garden where I lived.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it gets so hot, you know, it just

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Speaker 3: didn't really work out very well. And then now here

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Speaker 3: in Colorado you really can't where I live. You know,

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Speaker 3: if you plant anything, you're going to attract the deer

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Speaker 3: or you're going to attract the bears. And so it's

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Speaker 3: just like now I'll just keep the natural, you know,

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Speaker 3: plants and stuff around the house.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I understand that we have tons and tons of loads

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Speaker 2: of deer in our neighborhood, and people try everything, including

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Speaker 2: my mom. They put the little tents over them to

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Speaker 2: try to get them to stop eating. We don't really

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Speaker 2: have them over in our joint. So a friend of

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Speaker 2: mine had built me a raised bed a long time ago,

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Speaker 2: and I could not handle a raised vegetable bed, and

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Speaker 2: so I bought myself just a small little vegetable box

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Speaker 2: and killed everything. Last year. The heat did. I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: blame Texas heat. The heat did, except I'll tell you

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Speaker 2: what survived. Strawberries were awesome. Okay, tomatoes were great, except

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Speaker 2: the stupid squirrels. I love squirrels, but they're stupid in

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Speaker 2: this case. And then jolapenos did really well. So guess

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Speaker 2: what I bought this year. Because I want my self

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Speaker 2: esteem to continue to go up.

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Speaker 3: You're going to be redoing jlapenos, tomatoes, and strawberries.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I was a big failure with cucumbers. But I

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Speaker 2: bought a peach tree this year, and so I'm really

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Speaker 2: excited about those. But now I have a whole bird

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Speaker 2: netting that goes over it because the squirrels and the

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Speaker 2: birds love these peaches that are green, little peaches now,

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Speaker 2: so I get with my mom. My Mom has just

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Speaker 2: been so into plants for so long, and I get

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Speaker 2: what she likes about it. It's really relaxing and you

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Speaker 2: go out every morning and kind of check on everything.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think I travel so much I

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Speaker 3: would not be able to give it the attention that

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Speaker 3: it probably would something like that would need.

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Speaker 2: Well, I really took an interest when I got the

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Speaker 2: cottage because it's sort of a I've put pictures on

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Speaker 2: Instagram of it. It's we have a forested area in

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Speaker 2: the back, even though you know, we have a fenced

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Speaker 2: in backyard. And when we bought it from the original owners,

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Speaker 2: it had just been so overgrown. I didn't even know

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Speaker 2: what was back there, and we eventually cleared it out

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Speaker 2: kept all the trees. We have cedar, and we have

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Speaker 2: some cedar elm and a lot of different kinds of trees.

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Speaker 2: And I was sitting in here in the fall last

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Speaker 2: year and the cedar elm was this beautiful color. When

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Speaker 2: it turned, it was like a mustard color. A wind

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Speaker 2: came through and it like rained cedar elm leaves all

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Speaker 2: over the place. And I think that's what convinced me

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Speaker 2: to go ahead and start trying with trees and vegetables

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Speaker 2: and everything else. So it's satisfying to me. Yeah, I

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Speaker 2: find it relied.

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Speaker 3: Boy.

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Speaker 2: Both of us need anything that can relax us. Besides,

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Speaker 2: I know, whiskey and cider for me.

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Speaker 3: Now you'll have to have to send me some photos

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Speaker 3: of some success.

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Speaker 1: I will.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to try to post more photos I posted.

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Speaker 2: Starting a couple of months ago, I started posting on Sundays,

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Speaker 2: just cute photo of something that's going on in my life.

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Speaker 2: Usually it's like the dogs people love Ruby and Bailey,

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Speaker 2: or why I have a hummingbird feeder. My kids love

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Speaker 2: the hummingbird feeder, and so I did post some cottage stuff,

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Speaker 2: but I'm going to try to do some trees and vegetables.

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Speaker 2: It makes me happy. Yeah, And you know, not everything

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Speaker 2: that you know I post, of course, has to do

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Speaker 2: with the shows or the death or anything else. And

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Speaker 2: so I'm trying to look really more positively.

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Speaker 3: You know, these days, especially well, you have to have

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Speaker 3: something that distracts you. And that's where like me taking

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Speaker 3: my jeep out or mountain biking. You know, it just

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Speaker 3: gets the mind away from sort of the drudgery of

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Speaker 3: the cases. You know, because I get involved in so

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Speaker 3: many different cases.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, speaking of getting dragged into the drudgery of cases,

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Speaker 2: that's what we're doing now. I'm going to drag you

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Speaker 2: into the drudgery in the case. I wonder if you're

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Speaker 2: going to know this case. It's from nineteen seventy Sacramento.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, well you know, of course I wasn't living

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Speaker 3: in California back in nineteen seventy and Sacramento. You know,

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Speaker 3: my focus was the unsolved cases in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 3: so very very familiar. Okay, down in the Bay Area,

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Speaker 3: but there's a chance I could have heard something up

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Speaker 3: in Sacramento.

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Speaker 2: When I was in San Francisco working for a network,

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Speaker 2: we were in Sacramento all the time. I don't really

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Speaker 2: like to go. I loved visiting there, one of my

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Speaker 2: favorite places to go, visit, going back and forth. So

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Speaker 2: let's go ahead and set the scene. This is autumn

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Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy in Sacramento, and this is the story

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Speaker 2: of a woman named Nancy Binilac, and she's twenty eight

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Speaker 2: years old, and she is a native of Grass Valley, California,

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Speaker 2: which is nearby, but she's in Sacramento. Is Grass Valley

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Speaker 2: Are you familiar with that. I hadn't been there before.

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Speaker 3: I don't think yep. You know, that's just kind of

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Speaker 3: in the foothills past the Sacramento Full sum area. It's

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Speaker 3: a beautiful place at a lot of law enforcement relocates

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Speaker 3: there when they retire.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well this sounds like a really really, really nice

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Speaker 2: are Nancy is someone who has been well liked by

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Speaker 2: her peers. She was a cheerleader in high school. Doesn't

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Speaker 2: always mean you're well liked, but it's a point she was.

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Speaker 2: She was in high school. Everybody, you know, when she

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Speaker 2: was in high school, people seem to really like her.

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Speaker 2: She made good grades, she had a lot of friends,

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Speaker 2: and she graduated in nineteen sixty. So she went to

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Speaker 2: school for stenography, and then she became a court reporter

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Speaker 2: at the Sacramento County Juvenile Court in nineteen sixty six.

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Speaker 2: I am beyond fascinated with court reporters and what they do.

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Speaker 2: And I know it's changed, and I don't you know,

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Speaker 2: I've had to write about it several times just because

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Speaker 2: I have, you know, of course, these old cases. I

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Speaker 2: think my nineteen fifty two case we had to touch

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Speaker 2: on whatever the court reporter was doing in the device

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Speaker 2: they were using at the time. I don't know very

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Speaker 2: much about it. I know you've been there with them,

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Speaker 2: but do you know a lot about court reporting?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, of course I've testified a ton. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you know, I've testified close to two hundred times over

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Speaker 3: the course of my career. And I was the court

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Speaker 3: reporter's worst nightmare because when I'm testifying, I'm a very

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Speaker 3: fast talker, and literally these gals throw up their hands

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Speaker 3: and say slow down. So I'd have to kind of

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Speaker 3: remind myself I need to talk, you know, very purposefully.

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Speaker 3: And then of course with the scientific side, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's sometimes there's some of the some of the technical

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Speaker 3: terms that have to be spelled out for them, but

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Speaker 3: how they are able to keep track in real time

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Speaker 3: with that device, because there's many times where you know,

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Speaker 3: the judge or an attorney needs something read back that

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Speaker 3: was just stated and that she's able to take a

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Speaker 3: look at, you know what at the time was printed.

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Speaker 3: I think I'm sure they're electronic today and go back

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Speaker 3: and say, okay, defense attorney asked this question, the witness,

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Speaker 3: you know, respond it this way, the prosecutor kind of

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Speaker 3: you know, and so how they keep track of all

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Speaker 3: that is amazing.

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Speaker 2: I guess attention to detail and definitely keeping attention in general,

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Speaker 2: and Nancy seemed to do that very well. So she

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Speaker 2: is twenty eight, she's a court reporter in Sacramento. She

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Speaker 2: is a very full personal life. There are quite a

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Speaker 2: few people in this story. Luckily, you know, we'll have

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Speaker 2: a lot of clarity later on, but I'll just start

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Speaker 2: introducing them to you. She's engaged to a guy named

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Speaker 2: Ferris Salami, and he is the chief public Defender for

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Speaker 2: the county. What does that person do is that? I

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Speaker 2: don't know why. I feel like I've not heard that

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Speaker 2: phrase very often. Chief public defender for the county.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, the various public defender's offices in DA's

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Speaker 3: office have different rank structures, so I'm interpreting chief public

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Speaker 3: Defender as he is, in essence, the top administrator for

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Speaker 3: the public defender's office probably has had a very significant

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Speaker 3: legal career and then promoted up through the ranks. So

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Speaker 3: I'm somewhat surprised she's at the time twenty eight and

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Speaker 3: she's dating the chief public defender. You know, in court

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Speaker 3: they would be bumping into each all the time, so

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Speaker 3: you could see where they would be getting to know

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Speaker 3: each other. Just because of the court I would expect

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Speaker 3: him to be older. How old is he?

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Speaker 2: So what I'm reading about Ferris is that he represented

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Speaker 2: some of the Capitol's most notorious killers. He died in

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen at eighty four, so he was born in

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirty, so he was forty. Okay, But I mean,

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Speaker 2: is that a conflict of interest? Would you think that

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Speaker 2: would be a conflict of interest or now?

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Speaker 3: No, you know, because the court reporter really is a

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Speaker 3: part of that neutral party of the court, you know,

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Speaker 3: So I don't see where there would be any issues

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Speaker 3: there at all.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So this is an exciting time in her life.

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Speaker 2: She's planning her wedding, she's trying on dresses, looking forward

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Speaker 2: to the future, and you know, as I sometimes do,

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Speaker 2: I wanted you to see what she looks like. So

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Speaker 2: open up your document that I sent you and look

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Speaker 2: on page one, but don't go past page one, and

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Speaker 2: then you'll see a photo of Nancy.

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Speaker 3: I see a photo of Nancy. It's a crop photo.

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Speaker 3: There appears to be maybe a man's arm around, you know,

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Speaker 3: around her shoulder, like he was standing next to her

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Speaker 3: holding her but he's been cropped out. So taking a

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Speaker 3: look at the photo of Nancy, it's I mean, she's

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Speaker 3: attractive woman. She's got the old style hair. I'm not

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Speaker 3: sure what you'd call that, like a boufont or something.

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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: That's a big that's a big head of hair. I

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Speaker 2: love it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 2: She was stylish, yeah.

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Speaker 3: You know. And it's that's like when I do the

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Speaker 3: cases from this era, you know, that's part of the

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Speaker 3: the interesting aspect is looking at you know, the victims

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Speaker 3: in terms of in life, you know, the family photos

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Speaker 3: or whatever. You know, it was a different era.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so we are in wedding planning phase, right, and

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Speaker 2: she's supposed to quit around November thirtieth. So now we

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Speaker 2: go back a couple of more weeks. It's probably about

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Speaker 2: two and a half weeks, and we're on Monday, October

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Speaker 2: twenty sixth, nineteen seventy and this is where people start

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Speaker 2: becoming alarmed about this story. She doesn't come to work

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Speaker 2: that day, so this is her last few weeks of

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Speaker 2: work essentially, and she doesn't show up. Nobody can reach

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Speaker 2: her by phone. She has a phone at home, of course,

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Speaker 2: no cell phone because it's nineteen seventy. But you know,

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Speaker 2: she's a phone at home and nobody can get a

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Speaker 2: hold of her. They think that this is odd, of course,

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Speaker 2: and out of character, because she's a very reliable person.

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Speaker 2: Somebody reaches out to Nancy's sister, whose name is Linda,

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Speaker 2: and they want to know if she has any information.

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Speaker 2: So her sister does some brainstorming, and then about ten

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Speaker 2: o'clock she calls a family friend who's a guy named

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Speaker 2: Jack Moncreef. He lives in the same apartment building as Nancy.

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Speaker 2: So she's on the second floor and Jack is on

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Speaker 2: the first floor, just beneath her, and over the phone, Jack,

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Speaker 2: who is looking out his window towards the building's parking lot,

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Speaker 2: he says, to Linda, your sister's car is here. She's

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Speaker 2: in the parking lot, and he said, you know, I'll

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Speaker 2: go upstairs and make sure she's okay. But when Jack

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Speaker 2: knocks on Nancy's door, she doesn't answer and the door's locked.

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Speaker 2: So let's pause here so that you can kind of

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Speaker 2: gather your thoughts on what we have. I know it's

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Speaker 2: pretty vague right now. Nobody's seen her since it sounds

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Speaker 2: like Sunday, and her car is in the parking lot.

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Speaker 2: She was expected to be at home anyway, she was

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Speaker 2: in for the night, and her door is locked. And

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Speaker 2: Jack will say in a minute, he doesn't see anybody

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Speaker 2: jimmy ing anything open. There doesn't look like any violence

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Speaker 2: that's happened on the exterior of that door.

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Speaker 3: You know, this sounds like the you know, prototypical. We

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Speaker 3: need to do a welfare check. You know, Nancy is

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Speaker 3: a very responsible woman, has a stable job, has not

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Speaker 3: had this type of absence. And the fact that her

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Speaker 3: car is in the parking lot and her apartment is locked,

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Speaker 3: it's like, well, she in the apartment has has she

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Speaker 3: suffered some sort of health issue, you know, like say

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Speaker 3: she had a stroke, or has foul play happened? Again?

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Speaker 3: Was she a victim inside the apartment or was she

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Speaker 3: a victim that has been abducted away from this location taken?

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Speaker 3: And let's say in the offender's vehicle.

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Speaker 2: If you are Jack, do you if we have three doors,

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Speaker 2: do you try to find another way in because you're

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Speaker 2: worried about your friend? Do you contact the apartment manager

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Speaker 2: to try to get a key, or you just fought

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Speaker 2: out call the police because you're worried at this point, well.

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Speaker 3: I think, you know, at this point, I'm not sure

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Speaker 3: what you know, how much concerned Linda is expressing just like, hey,

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Speaker 3: this is unusual. So I imagine Jack is just kind

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Speaker 3: of you know, walked around the perimeter of what he

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Speaker 3: can of this apartment. Are there any open you know,

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Speaker 3: are there any windows where he can have you know,

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Speaker 3: visibility inside? And then eventually that's where it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: let's get the apartment manager and have that you know,

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Speaker 3: person go in. That's typically what ends up happening. And

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Speaker 3: then then if something's discovered, if something bad is discovered,

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Speaker 3: now you're getting law enforcement role in out.

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Speaker 2: Okay, but what if they open the door and she's

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Speaker 2: sleeping with another guy or you know, something else is happening.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you're running that risk of a manager using

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Speaker 2: the key when all this woman wanted was privacy.

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Speaker 3: And locked her door, right, you know, And so that

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Speaker 3: sometimes happens. You know, sometimes you know, law enforcement does

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Speaker 3: a welfare check and see something where they have to

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Speaker 3: force themselves in and turns out, well, the person was

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Speaker 3: just living their life and didn't want to be disturbed.

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Speaker 3: But some you know, private party on the outside, whether

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Speaker 3: it be a family member, or somebody else has called

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Speaker 3: law enforcement say hey, can you check you know, because

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Speaker 3: this is not this is not right.

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Speaker 2: That's why we're looking for patterns. Right, she didn't show

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Speaker 2: up to work. That was weird. Yeah, and her car

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Speaker 2: is in the parking lot. Okay, So Jack does what

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Speaker 2: you say. He finds the apartment manager. It's a guy

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Speaker 2: named Victor Anderson. And see, now we've already come up

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Speaker 2: with three or four male names, and then we've got Linda,

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Speaker 2: so this is kind of a big cast. So Victor

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Speaker 2: is the apartment manager. They go up this second floor

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Speaker 2: to Nancy's apartment. He uses his master key. They get inside,

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Speaker 2: and they look around the apartment. Nothing's happening, nothing seems touched.

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Speaker 2: And then they get into the bedroom and that's where

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Speaker 2: they find Nancy and she is deceased and she's laying

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Speaker 2: down in a pool of blood in her bedroom. And

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Speaker 2: I actually have a photo that Maren was able to

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Speaker 2: grab off of a TV show. She sometimes has to

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Speaker 2: do this when we can't figure out where photos are.

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Speaker 2: She'll just take her camera and take a photo of

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Speaker 2: it so that we can at least show you some stuff.

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Speaker 2: She has a photo that this show cut out that

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Speaker 2: shows the position of her body, and then of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, we'll have medical examiner stuff, and then there's

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Speaker 2: how everybody reacts to this. So what do you want

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Speaker 2: to do first.

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Speaker 3: Well, just describe what they see, Okay.

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Speaker 2: So he rushes back down to the apartment and he

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Speaker 2: tells Linda that you know, this is what's happened. She's dead.

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Speaker 2: I don't know anything about it. She's face down and

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Speaker 2: she's has blood everywhere. The police arrive and here's what

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00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 2: the scene is. She is naked except for a pair

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00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:03,320
Speaker 2: of under where she has more than thirty stab wounds.

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Speaker 2: Many of these are on the front of her body.

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Speaker 2: But investigators also think that Nancy's attacker rolled her over

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Speaker 2: so onto her stomach before he tried to or she

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Speaker 2: tried to decapitate her. She has defensive wounds on her

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Speaker 2: hands and arms, and there is a large slash on

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Speaker 2: her leg, suggesting that she might have put up a fight.

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Speaker 2: And I have a photo of the position of the body,

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Speaker 2: but it's been cut out just for you know, privacy sake,

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Speaker 2: I guess. And then there are some other clues at

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Speaker 2: the scene. But that's where we are. Thirty stab wounds

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Speaker 2: and there is evidence of sexual assault.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I'm looking at a photo and this is

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Speaker 3: a photo that shows on the left hand side of

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Speaker 3: the photo appears to be the bed, and then you

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Speaker 3: have this white almost like a mannequin laying face down

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Speaker 3: on the floor. So somehow, you know, with computer graphics,

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Speaker 3: they were able to very precisely remove the visual aspect

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Speaker 3: of Nancy, but maintain the proportions of her body, the

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Speaker 3: arms being folded up, the legs kind of sticking straight out,

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Speaker 3: and then it appears that her head might be on

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Speaker 3: what looks like a pillow with some blood staining on

359
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Speaker 3: the pillow. I don't know if they remove so let's

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Speaker 3: say the blood pool or any other of the blood

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Speaker 3: patterns that may have been present, if they digitally remove

362
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Speaker 3: those from this photo, because that's what I'd be interested

363
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Speaker 3: in taking a look at. Plus, I'd want to see

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Speaker 3: the stab wounds. I want to see the types of

365
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,240
Speaker 3: blood flows out of the stab wounds to indicate the motion.

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Speaker 3: You know, you imagine that the offender is probably initially

367
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Speaker 3: attacking her and they're face to face. That's why she

368
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Speaker 3: has a lot of these stab wounds to the front

369
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Speaker 3: of her plus the defensive injuries, you know, and a

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Speaker 3: lot of the blood in stabbing scenes often come from

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Speaker 3: cuts to the hands, cut to the arms. And now

372
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Speaker 3: during during the commotion, during the battle, you're now getting

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Speaker 3: blood being flung off from the limbs.

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Speaker 2: Is that blood on the pillow? Do you think is that?

375
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Speaker 2: I mean, I know it looks kind of weird with

376
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Speaker 2: this photo, and they've obviously altered some stuff, But does

377
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Speaker 2: that Is that a big blood pooling on the pillow

378
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Speaker 2: that her head's face down in?

379
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Speaker 3: You know, well, it's it's hard to say how big

380
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:20,400
Speaker 3: that that blood pool is. What ends up happening is

381
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,320
Speaker 3: is you get the fabric the blood flows through capillary

382
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:29,040
Speaker 3: reaction spreads as as the blood feeds that fabric. So oftentimes,

383
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,320
Speaker 3: you know, it looks a lot larger than the amount

384
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Speaker 3: of blood that was probably deposited. But if if she's

385
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Speaker 3: if he tried to decapitate her, and if she may

386
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Speaker 3: have already been dead at this point, her heart isn't pumping,

387
00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 3: but there could be a significant amount of blood from

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Speaker 3: what I'm assuming is going to be a cut neck,

389
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Speaker 3: a cut throat, and that would all be underneath her.

390
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Speaker 2: Okay, so this is something unusual, I think, And you

391
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Speaker 2: could tell me what you think about the police theory.

392
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Speaker 2: Near Nancy's body and now I don't think you can

393
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Speaker 2: see that in the photo, but I have a separate photo.

394
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Speaker 2: Near her body, police find a bloody piece of masking

395
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,239
Speaker 2: tape which has been curled into a circle shape, kind

396
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:12,679
Speaker 2: of like a band aid that you would put on

397
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 2: the tip of your finger. I think. Okay, they theorized

398
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Speaker 2: that the murderer had wrapped tape around each of his

399
00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 2: fingers to hide his prints. I don't know why you

400
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 2: wouldn't just wear gloves, but that's what they think. And

401
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 2: one of these popped off. That of course, suggests to

402
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,919
Speaker 2: them that there is pre planning involved here, which I

403
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,199
Speaker 2: think probably is the case. Anyway, what do you think

404
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 2: about that theory? Number one and number two? If you

405
00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 2: look on I think it's page three, you'll see what

406
00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 2: they're talking about.

407
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I was when you initially described it. I was like,

408
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 3: that doesn't sound right, but this does look like you know,

409
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,439
Speaker 3: in essence, it looks like a band aid that was

410
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,880
Speaker 3: over the end of a finger. Yeah, and it appears

411
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,400
Speaker 3: to be quite bloody. You know, why would the offender

412
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 3: wear something like that? You know, it's possible maybe he

413
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,919
Speaker 3: had you know, some pre existing cut and that was

414
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 3: all he had available to put on his finger and

415
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 3: it just is coincidental that it drops off during during

416
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 3: the attack on Nancy. Now, back during this era in

417
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,199
Speaker 3: the nineteen seventies, fingerprints is the primary concern of the

418
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 3: offenders because that's how law enforcement could actually identify you.

419
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 3: And so these offenders will try, you know, a variety

420
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 3: of different things to hide their fingerprints from being from

421
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,640
Speaker 3: leaving their fingerprints behind, you know. Most commonly it's wearing gloves,

422
00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 3: you know, but you do have some offenders that will,

423
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 3: you know, they've they've tried to use sandpaper to file down,

424
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,359
Speaker 3: you know, the ends of their fingers and try and

425
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 3: you know, put glue you know, on the ends of

426
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:41,639
Speaker 3: their fingers, you know. And it's just sometimes some of

427
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 3: these alterations just make their fingerprints more unique, particularly when

428
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 3: it's scars. So I'm not sure what's going on here

429
00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 3: just yet, but yeah, that is odd. But it also

430
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,159
Speaker 3: is potentially a great source of offender DNA.

431
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Speaker 2: And it looks like they've saved that, which is good.

432
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 2: And there's more DNA floating around that I can tell

433
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 2: you about. So we've got that finger covering, they say,

434
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 2: investigators don't think that the killer intentionally took, of course,

435
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 2: this piece of tape off and left it behind. They

436
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 2: think it slipped off in the struggle. And there's a knife,

437
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 2: which we know gets really bloody and people get cut

438
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,480
Speaker 2: when they stab people, so it looks like because of

439
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 2: the defensive wounds, she was fighting back to begin with.

440
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,479
Speaker 2: There's no murder weapon found at the scene, but a

441
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: pathologist will later guess that it was a very sharp

442
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 2: knife with a three or four inch long blade that

443
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: was used to kill Nancy. Is that because he found

444
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: a pattern of depth that showed kind of a consistency.

445
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: Is that where he would have come.

446
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 3: Up with that, right? So, and this is where sometimes

447
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 3: the size of the knife can be exaggerated because they

448
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 3: will misinterpret the wounds. So you think about aspects on

449
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 3: your body. Let's say a stabbing to your abdomen where

450
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 3: there's no bony structure underneath, So a very short blade

451
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 3: you can push much deeper into the abdomen, and so

452
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 3: the stab wound is much deeper than the actual length

453
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 3: of the blade. So for the pathologists to kind of

454
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 3: conclude this was a three to four inch long blade,

455
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,920
Speaker 3: I'm assuming he's looking at a stab wound in let's

456
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: say the chest area where now you have the ribs,

457
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:24,080
Speaker 3: you're not getting that compression, and probably found a stab

458
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 3: wound that wasn't significantly distorted. When a stabbing is occurring

459
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,440
Speaker 3: and the victim is moving, oftentimes the stab wounds the

460
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,640
Speaker 3: knife cuts you stab in, but then the victim kind

461
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 3: of moves and now the stab wound is much larger

462
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 3: looking than what the actual width of the blade is.

463
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 3: And so that's where pathologist has to evaluate the stab

464
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 3: wounds and find a stab wound in which it would

465
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 3: be okay, this is not a compressible area on the body,

466
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,200
Speaker 3: and it doesn't appear that the knife cut sideways if

467
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: you will, while it was in the body. So that's

468
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 3: where he can take a look and go, okay, it's

469
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 3: a it's a single edge blade, or it's a double

470
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 3: edged blade. It's so long, it's you know, it has

471
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 3: a certain width, and starts forming opinions in terms of

472
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 3: the type of knife. Is a pocket knife? Is this

473
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 3: something you know that that's like a bowie knife, a big,

474
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 3: you know, big like hunting type of knife.

475
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,480
Speaker 2: If this turns out to be a stranger versus you know,

476
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 2: somebody in her social circle. Do you think that you

477
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: know what I hear a lot is that term overkill,

478
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: thirty stand wounds trying to decapitate her. I hear that

479
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: assumption a lot that this must be something personal, And

480
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 2: I think you've said before absolutely doesn't have to be

481
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: personal at all. It could be pure anger or control

482
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: or whatever it is. So why don't we talk a

483
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 2: little bit about dispelling that myth too?

484
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 3: Well? I think you know it is not uncommon to

485
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,920
Speaker 3: have this number of stab wounds. Stabbings occur, they can

486
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 3: be very quick, and I've previously talked about I'm not

487
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: sure if it was with you or or in a

488
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:05,200
Speaker 3: different setting, but just watch prison shankings. You know, they'll

489
00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 3: release the videos of some guy walking across the yard

490
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 3: and another guy comes up and all of a sudden,

491
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 3: he's stabbing him with a shank, and within seconds there's

492
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: ten twenty stab wounds on the victim. In those situations.

493
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: Here with Nancy, you know she is being attacked and

494
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,440
Speaker 3: who knows what type of interactions occurred between the offender

495
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 3: and Nancy prior to the stabbing starting. But once that

496
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: stabbing starts, they often can go very quick in terms

497
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 3: of the number of wounds, and it's not like the

498
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 3: offender is sitting there counting one, two, three, it's just

499
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 3: boom boom, boom boom. She's still moving, you know, and

500
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: the offender is just trying to get get control it. Ultimately,

501
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 3: you know, in something like with Nancy, you know, it's

502
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 3: when is she going to die? When's she going to

503
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: stop moving? I would be looking more if there is

504
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 3: something really significant about the location of the stab wounds.

505
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: I mean, this could be tough, but like I have

506
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 3: some you know, some of these women victim cases. You

507
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: know there's some significant mutilation and you can see a

508
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 3: focus let's say, you know, a stabbing to the left eye.

509
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,239
Speaker 3: You know, why did the offender do that? When I

510
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 3: see that in multiple cases, like it's a serial killer,

511
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 3: it's not just the number of stab wounds, but also

512
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 3: how is the offender utilizing that knife? And there's so

513
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 3: many different ways and all, you know, each case can

514
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: be different. So right now I'm going to assume that

515
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,640
Speaker 3: there isn't anything that I'm going, oh, there's a significant

516
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 3: behavior with how the offender stabbed the victim. This was

517
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: more a matter of getting control over the victim and

518
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 3: killing the victim during the dynamics of this, you know,

519
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 3: offender victim interaction, the cutting of the throat, and I

520
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 3: would want to know why they thought he was trying

521
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 3: to decap Did it appear that the knife was being

522
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 3: used to try to saw through the vertebrae like significant,

523
00:27:06,119 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 3: like to literally remove her head or are they just

524
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 3: assuming because you know, homicidal's throat cuts, I mean typically

525
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 3: go all the way through the neck with a sharp knife,

526
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: So they just maybe making an assumption he tried to

527
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 3: cut her head off. I would say, what he's doing

528
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 3: is he's ensuring she's dead, you know. And this is

529
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: part of what people don't recognize, you know. And I

530
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 3: saw this with Golden State killer Joseph DiAngelo. Just because

531
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 3: they're a serial killer doesn't mean that they're an expert

532
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 3: on how to kill somebody, right, And I saw at

533
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,360
Speaker 3: DiAngelo he would check and some of his homicide victims,

534
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 3: even though they're bludgeoned, he's checking, he's poking them, are

535
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: you alive? With this case, that throat cut could just

536
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 3: be merely that offender is making sure Nancy is dead

537
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 3: when he or she walks out of that apartment. It's

538
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: just like an offender maybe strangles a victim and then

539
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 3: puts a ties a ligature on the victim to ensure

540
00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 3: that that victim is not going to come back to life.

541
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: And it sounds like she's really fighting because, as I

542
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 2: said before, she has several defensive wounds on her hands,

543
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: in her arms, she's got the slash on her leg.

544
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: It sounds like she was really fighting. But let's go

545
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 2: outside the bedroom for a moment, because the police are

546
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: trying to figure out what else happened in the apartment,

547
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 2: of anything, to just get some clues on who this

548
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: might have been. The bedroom is obviously where the scene

549
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: of the action has been, but there's nothing touched in

550
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,919
Speaker 2: the rest of the apartment, which I'm assuming is not

551
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 2: particularly big. There wasn't forced entrees I had mentioned on

552
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 2: her front door, and the I think robbery was pretty

553
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 2: quickly ruled out as a motive. I think your sister

554
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: came in and identified what was there and what wasn't,

555
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,760
Speaker 2: or another family member. It definitely seems like it was

556
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: sexually motivated. They found evidence of semen in the apartment,

557
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 2: but they were very vague about it. We don't know

558
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: who this belongs to, and it doesn't seem like they

559
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: collected it. They collected a lot of blood evidence includes

560
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,440
Speaker 2: and of course that that masking tape, but I don't

561
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: think they collected the semen. And even though they don't

562
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: say explicitly that she was raped, there saying that there's

563
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: obviously been sexual violence that's happened here. So that's where

564
00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: they settle on that this is, you know, a sexually

565
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 2: motivated attack. And I'm assuming you would agree with that.

566
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: You have a nude female that's what stabbed to death

567
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 3: in her apartment, I would say, in all likelihood it's

568
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: sexually motivated. You know. Now, could there have been let's say,

569
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 3: consensual sex between Nancy and the offender, whoever that is,

570
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,719
Speaker 3: and then an argument ensues and now the offender kills Nancy,

571
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 3: you know, so it's the sex aspect is not related

572
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 3: to the violence. You had mentioned early on in the

573
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 3: description that she's nude except her underwear is still on.

574
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 3: Is it like completely on her, like she in normal,

575
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: like she's just wearing it? Yes, you know, and there's

576
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 3: different ways to interpret that. You know, that's part of

577
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 3: taking a look at blood patterns and every thing else.

578
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 3: Did she have that on, you know, prior to the

579
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 3: stabbing start. You know, it is again was her consensual interaction?

580
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 3: And she starts to redress and then things go sideways.

581
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 3: Did the offender redresser? Because offenders do redress their victims

582
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 3: for whatever reason. And then of course with the semen evidence,

583
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 3: you know, it sounds like they're finding a semen stain

584
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 3: on the bedding or on a pillow.

585
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,400
Speaker 2: Your ear, the body. We don't know.

586
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, until DNA technology came along, you know, it's really

587
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 3: hard to say, well, is that something from a prior

588
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 3: consensual encounter or is this something that the offender left behind.

589
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 3: I'm surprised that there they must just be looking at

590
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,959
Speaker 3: here's a krusty stain. They could see it, but they

591
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: don't collect it. And it's typically requires the lab to

592
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: verify that, yes, that's a semen stain. But nineteen seventy

593
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 3: you could do very very little in terms of all

594
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 3: basically you could say, yeah, that semen, there's a sexual

595
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: aspect here, but you can't You couldn't really type it

596
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 3: back to a particular person. And of course they didn't

597
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: know about the DNA that that semen stain would have contained.

598
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 2: Well, that's what my question was going to be in

599
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: the seventies or earlier. What would be the motivation to

600
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 2: collect a semen's stain and preserve it as evidence if

601
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 2: the only thing we could really use biologically actually in

602
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 2: the seventies was blood typing and that was it. Would

603
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 2: they just think, well, we're just going to collect this

604
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: for some future thing or what.

605
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: It's evidence of a crime. You know, we have statutes

606
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: for you know, different sex based crimes, and so that

607
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: semen is evidence that a sexual crime had been committed,

608
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 3: depending on where it's deposited and everything else. So that's

609
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 3: just part of normal proper crime scene investigative processes. You

610
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 3: collect this evidence, even though at that point in the

611
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: nineteen seventies you couldn't do much in Nancy's case. You know,

612
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 3: right now, I don't know enough about the semen stain,

613
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 3: but it's that is a significant item of evidence, and

614
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 3: it may just come back to you know, her fiance

615
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,840
Speaker 3: from a prior sexual encounter, or it could be the offender,

616
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 3: you know, and that could be what could have been

617
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 3: used to solve the case if it had been collected.

618
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 2: Now this question might seem a little odd, but would

619
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: you be able to tell within a certain time period

620
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: if the man who contributed to the semen if he

621
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: was sterile or not compared to you know, a different man,

622
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 2: and would that be in some case be somewhat helpful

623
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: at least like exonerate the husband or something. If there's

624
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 2: clearly a sample where the semen is not normal.

625
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 3: Well, the forensic testing does not address fertility per se.

626
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 3: What we look at is we look at are there

627
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 3: sperm present? You know, So if we have a stain

628
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 3: and are able to through testing determined this is a

629
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 3: semen stain, but it's a sperm there's no sperm present, Well,

630
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: that could be due to a genetic condition, but often

631
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: it's due to a vasectomy. And so now that could

632
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,760
Speaker 3: be you know expressed. We're now during an interview, you know,

633
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: let's say, you know, the fiancee Ferris was like, have

634
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 3: you had a physeectomy? You know, and so even back

635
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy you could say, okay, so that possibly

636
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 3: is Ferris a semen there from a prior consentual encounter.

637
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 3: Because it's a it doesn't have the sperm present. In

638
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: part I mean, there's I could go into a you know,

639
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,239
Speaker 3: much deeper dive in terms of how we you know,

640
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 3: interpret you know what we're seeing underneath the microscope when

641
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 3: it comes to semen, when it comes to sperm, when

642
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: the sperm was deposited, et cetera.

643
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: So let's talk about now, blood one of my favorite things.

644
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 2: So let's talk about the exit and what they think happened. So,

645
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 2: no front door that's been locked, no violence outside of

646
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: the bedroom, no robbery outside of the bedroom, and then

647
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: how does this person get out? So police look and

648
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: there's a bloody trail. And I'm going to put trail

649
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 2: in quotes because it sounds more like droplets. But okay,

650
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: you can see where this person went. There's a bloody

651
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 2: trail leading through the sliding glass door. So she's got

652
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 2: a door in her bedroom. There's a balcony on the

653
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 2: other side of her bedroom, and then there's, you know,

654
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 2: a staircase that goes down. They see this bloody trail

655
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,280
Speaker 2: going from the sliding glass door that opens to her balcony,

656
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 2: looks out onto the back of the apartment building, and

657
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 2: on the balcony they find another piece of that bloody

658
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: tape that I showed you before. It seems like they're right.

659
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 2: He must have put it on several of his fingers

660
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: all of his fingers, which I mean, just as a

661
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 2: side note, just seems a little laborious or inefficient or something.

662
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: I don't think i've ever heard that before, somebody doing

663
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: something like that.

664
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, it's odd. You know, it's almost as if

665
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: you remember those true detective magazines. Yeah, you know, it's possible.

666
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: This guy was just reading a story and you know

667
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: in that story, you know the offender and you know

668
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 3: in the story had done something like that, so he thought, well,

669
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: that's a way to possibly do it. Seems odd, but

670
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: it appears that you know, masking tape is not very

671
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 3: sticky to begin with, but also if it's now truly

672
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 3: getting saturated with blood, it's now coming off right, and

673
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 3: that appears to be what's happening here.

674
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and it's great evidence, thank goodness. So you

675
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 2: know they collect that tape. Also, when you were talking

676
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 2: about that, it reminds me of all of the bad,

677
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: botched kidnappings that we've dealt with on this show, where

678
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: it's clear people have watched bad, hard boiled detective movies

679
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: or read the books and they think that you're supposed

680
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: to make things as complicated as possible, and then you

681
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 2: know it all goes awry, the bloody trail drops down

682
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: about thirteen feet onto the ground below, where the killer

683
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,879
Speaker 2: appears to have left some shoe prints. So I don't think.

684
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 2: Let me look real quick. So he's on the balcony,

685
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: there's the bloody tape, and then the bloody trail drops

686
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 2: off about thirteen feet. Okay, So I'm gonna go back

687
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 2: and say I was not right. There was not a staircase,

688
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 2: so he would have had to have dropped down thirteen

689
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: feet onto the ground and that's where the drops commence.

690
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,959
Speaker 2: And they said that the killer appeared to have left

691
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 2: shoe prints in the dirt. Another good thing. They said

692
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 2: that they were made by a quote casual boating shoe.

693
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: I almost look that up because I don't know what

694
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: that is. It seems kind of speculative, but maybe not.

695
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: I mean, would you you would have now been able

696
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: to identify kind of a combat boot versus you know,

697
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: a lady's shoe, So I don't Maybe this isn't speculative.

698
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 3: Well, we use outsai the you know, the tread patterns

699
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 3: all the time to determine make and model the shoe

700
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: and even possibly the size range of the shoe that

701
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 3: the offender was wearing. So I'm not sure what the

702
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 3: tread pattern for this would look like. I'm envisioning like

703
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 3: a deck shoe. He almost like a topsider type shoe.

704
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 3: And so maybe there was sufficient detail that indicated this

705
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 3: is the type of shoe that they're looking for. You know,

706
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,320
Speaker 3: in this day and age, there are you know, tread

707
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 3: databases that we can we would end up like back

708
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 3: when I was doing this in the nineties, we would

709
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: take a photo of the bottom of the shoe impression

710
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,480
Speaker 3: that we got from the you know cast at the

711
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 3: crime scene, and that could go to the FBI, and

712
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 3: then they could search their database and give us a

713
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: list of possible makes and models of shoes. And then

714
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 3: now I'm at a shoe store flipping shoes trying to

715
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 3: find you know what match. So I'm imagining they probably

716
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:24,760
Speaker 3: went through that type of process.

717
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: So, because I am a crack researcher and know how

718
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 2: to type into Google it's a moccasin, I would not

719
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 2: call this a boat shoe these days, but I mean

720
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,719
Speaker 2: that's what they were. So this is would you think

721
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: this is distinct?

722
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 3: Well, you know, that's exactly like when I said topsider,

723
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 3: that's exactly what I was envisioning is that style of shoe.

724
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 3: You know, in terms of what's unique or not, it's

725
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 3: that tread pattern. You know, what did they recover at

726
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,160
Speaker 3: the crime scene. You know, is there something unique about

727
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 3: the tread pattern from a particular brand of this topsider

728
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 3: boat shoe or how they go? Okay, it's this type

729
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: of shoe. On how how rare is this shoe? You know,

730
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 3: most shoes are not very rare, so oftentimes you don't

731
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 3: get investigative leads, but you have to at least consider

732
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 3: there's a chance that this is an unusual shoe. You know,

733
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 3: where is it sold? Is there a customer you know,

734
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 3: database that you can get from the store, like they

735
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 3: use credit cards and you start checking the box.

736
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know how helpful that shoe was, but

737
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: I thought the boat shoe part of it was interesting. Okay,

738
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 2: the trail of blood goes from the shoe print over

739
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 2: to it wraps around the apartment building on the sidewalk

740
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: and ends in the parking lot. So then, of course

741
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: the police say, because it ends in the parking lot

742
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 2: and goes nowhere else, that suggests that the person hopped

743
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 2: in a car and left. Does that make sense to you.

744
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 3: It does, and at all, you know, the extent of

745
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 3: this trail is telling me the offender is bleeding. So

746
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 3: you think about Okay, let's say you have a bloody knife. Well,

747
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 3: there's only so much of the victim's blood on this knife,

748
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 3: so as you are walking away, there may be a

749
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: few drips coming off of it, but it's not like

750
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: there's a source of blood that's constantly feeding it, so

751
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 3: that trail diminishes over time. Here you have a trail

752
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 3: that's going out of the victim's apartment, down onto the

753
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,080
Speaker 3: ground and around the apartment complex of the parking lot

754
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 3: that's not coming just off the knife. To me, that

755
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 3: tells me he possibly got cut on his hand and

756
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 3: is now as he's fleeing the victim's apartment, leaving his

757
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,320
Speaker 3: own blood behind. That is obviously key evidence.

758
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he's regretting putting those little finger coverings

759
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 2: on the tops of this. I mean, that just does

760
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: not seem smart. Okay, So what they think happened is

761
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 2: that the offender climbed onto a fence which is just

762
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: outside of Nancy's apartment, pulled himself over the railing of

763
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 2: her balcony, and then entered her bedroom through the sliding

764
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 2: glass store. I'll explain, Okay, the sliding glass door and

765
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 2: why they think that it's simply nobody in the seventies

766
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 2: locked their doors, because people did lock their doors, so

767
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 2: given the trail of blood, this is also how they

768
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: think he exited.

769
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 3: Now.

770
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 2: I don't know how helpful this photo is. I feel

771
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: like I say that all the time. But if you

772
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 2: look on page four of your nifty photo package, you'll

773
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: see the back of her building trying to figure out privacy.

774
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 2: I'm assuming we might be looking. I don't know where

775
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: the parking lot would be, but you tell people what

776
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 2: you see here.

777
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this you know I'm looking at. It's a

778
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 3: black and white photo. Two story apartment complex. Appears that

779
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 3: the upper story there's windows and balconies and so this sounds,

780
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 3: you know, like the description of the sliding door for

781
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 3: Nancy's apartment. There appears to be this fence that's in

782
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 3: the foreground a little bit, and then pass that fence,

783
00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 3: which is very much in the foreground. There's a lot

784
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 3: of vegetation, like biny type of vegetation growing up on

785
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 3: two scaffolding of some sort, you know, So you know,

786
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 3: if the offenders leaving through this, you know, this is

787
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 3: a he's possibly getting some of this, you know, vegetable matter,

788
00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,320
Speaker 3: you know, on his clothing, caught up in his shoes,

789
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 3: et cetera. So that would be something from a trace

790
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 3: evidence standpoint I would be paying attention to.

791
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 2: I love forensic botany. I'm so fascinated by forensic botany.

792
00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah.

793
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,520
Speaker 2: Okay, So now you kind of know. And also you

794
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: can see there's privacy, so much of it has overgrown.

795
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: It's not front and center. It seems like there's especially

796
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: because if this happens late at night, he probably is

797
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 2: able to slip over being unseen. And we don't have

798
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 2: witnesses right now who say they've seen anything that the

799
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 2: police have spoken to. Okay, so they collect the pieces

800
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: of rolled up tape and they say they can't pull

801
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 2: any prints off of these pieces of rolled up tape,

802
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 2: and they can't produce any prints from the scene. So

803
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: does that make sense? Would that be tough though from

804
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 2: what you saw those kind of band aid looking things.

805
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: Plus they're not finding any prints at the scene that

806
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 2: they can use.

807
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say, you know, it's possible that if

808
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,800
Speaker 3: he had that tape on all his fingers. It would

809
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 3: prevent the fingertips from leaving prints, you know, but we

810
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 3: use all the ridge patterns, so the palms, you know,

811
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: the interdigital area, all of that surface area of your

812
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 3: hands can also leave laytent prince behind that can be

813
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 3: used to identify you. Just covering the fingertips is not

814
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: necessarily going to be as effective as what this offender

815
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: might might think. Now, if they're saying that they're not

816
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:40,280
Speaker 3: developing or finding prints, you can go into any residence.

817
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 3: You're going to find prints. It's just that are they

818
00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: from the offender? And in this case, I would be

819
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,280
Speaker 3: looking to see I do I have any ridge detail

820
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 3: in the victim's blood, because now that tells me that's

821
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 3: a focus area for me, versus some random print that

822
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: was deposited, you know, by you know, Ferris, you know,

823
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 3: coming over to Nancy Place three weeks ago.

824
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,240
Speaker 2: Do my favor and go back to your photos because

825
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: I forgot to ask you something. Go to page two,

826
00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 2: the body positioning one. I want to ask you about

827
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: blood spatter and the patterns that you and I had

828
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: talked about. So this is on a carpet, a carpet

829
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 2: versus linoleum versus wood. What makes life easier for investigators

830
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 2: when they're trying to look at these patterns with blood.

831
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: Is it the carpet, because once blood's in there, even

832
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: stomping over it might not drag it out. I would

833
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 2: think wood floors would be terrible.

834
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: Well, the easiest is typically your non porous surfaces. So

835
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,320
Speaker 3: when you start talking, let's say you're vinyl or linoleum floor.

836
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 3: You know there the blood isn't necessarily getting disturbed. You

837
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,439
Speaker 3: imagine a blood drop hitting a vinyl floor. It makes

838
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 3: a nice circular drop pattern, you know, that tells me

839
00:43:55,880 --> 00:44:00,120
Speaker 3: it hit that vinyl floor perparticularly, versus something that's oblog

840
00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: tells me it struck that floor at an angle. And

841
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 3: so I can start interpreting movements based off of that

842
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 3: type of pattern off of that surface versus a drip

843
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 3: onto carpet. It just gets absorbed into the texture of

844
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,800
Speaker 3: the carpet. And if you do have a textured surface,

845
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,360
Speaker 3: like a very heavily grained wood floor, that can also

846
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: disrupt some of the interpretive aspects of the blood patterns.

847
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: So the smooth, non porous surfaces are usually the best.

848
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 3: Good to know.

849
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:30,920
Speaker 2: I had been wondering about that and I was waiting

850
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 2: for kind of a carpety type case. I knew that

851
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,759
Speaker 2: would jog my memory. Okay, so you know, as I said,

852
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 2: they collect the blood, and they collect all of the

853
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: little finger coverings that he made, and you know, they're

854
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: hoping that if they find it an offender, obviously they're going

855
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: to be able to compare the blood type, which I

856
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 2: know is not always helpful. It was helpful with the

857
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: Jeffrey McDonald case. This time period actually could have been

858
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 2: this year with four different people in the house with

859
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,800
Speaker 2: four different types of blood. But generally, I mean, was

860
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 2: was blood typing something that would break a case? Do

861
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: you think before DNA came along? Or was it really fingerprints?

862
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 3: It's fingerprints back in the day. Now you know the

863
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 3: ABO typing every now and then you'd have somebody who's

864
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,240
Speaker 3: you know, type B, you know, which is four percent

865
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 3: of the population roughly, but most of the time you

866
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,439
Speaker 3: are dealing with A or O, you know, and that's

867
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 3: most of the population. And then there was other things

868
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 3: as the nineteen seventies progress, there's other types of typing

869
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 3: that we would do, enzyme typing, protein typing, and so

870
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 3: if you had sufficient evidence blood evidence behind you could

871
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 3: generate a better, more discriminating profile. But it's was nothing

872
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 3: like you know what we can do with DNA, never

873
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: even approach that. But you could at least say, okay,

874
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: this blood trail that's leading out to the parking lot,

875
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,879
Speaker 3: well that's different than the victim's blood. And so now

876
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 3: you're excited and we go okay, so we've got a

877
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 3: fender blood and what type is it? And then now

878
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 3: you start talking to you know, potential suspects and part

879
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 3: of what you could do, you know, back in the day,

880
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 3: you could either get a direct blood sample, or you

881
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 3: could determine secretor status and through their saliva determine their

882
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 3: their blood type if they're a secretor you know, so

883
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:19,000
Speaker 3: there's there's ways to more rapidly screen, you know, the

884
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 3: suspects using that blood type. Most of the time, it

885
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:26,160
Speaker 3: really didn't. You could you could eliminate, you could exclude,

886
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 3: but the inclusion was so weak it didn't make a

887
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 3: big difference in the cases.

888
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: Well, let's see what you think about this next pieces

889
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: of evidence. Here we have earwitnesses. Okay, they're trying to

890
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,800
Speaker 2: establish a timeline. They have interviewed in the one month,

891
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,719
Speaker 2: so the month of October and then intwo when she

892
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:46,919
Speaker 2: was supposed to be married, and of November. They speak

893
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:49,840
Speaker 2: to more than five hundred people, and this includes a

894
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: neighbor who says that she thought she heard a baby's

895
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: cry on the night that she was murdered, followed by

896
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 2: hurried footsteps. And then there's another neighbor who heard a

897
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: car pulling out of the complex. If these reports have

898
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 2: anything to do with Nancy at all, this puts her

899
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 2: murder or the attack and the murder somewhere between one

900
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,839
Speaker 2: am and two thirty am Monday morning, and then she's

901
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,319
Speaker 2: found some like seven or eight hours later. Okay, so

902
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: what do you think about that?

903
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:19,800
Speaker 3: Well, that's probably as good as what you're going to get,

904
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 3: you know, in terms of this baby's cry, of course,

905
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,800
Speaker 3: could be Nancy's, you know, screaming as she's being attacked.

906
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,439
Speaker 3: In the hurried footsteps. I mean, this ear witness, of course,

907
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 3: is not necessarily going to know what law enforcement knows.

908
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 3: And so if it's a proper interview of the witness,

909
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: she is relaying sounds that are lining up with the

910
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 3: physical evidence with the crime scene. So it kind of

911
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 3: gives a level of veracity to what she's hearing as

912
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 3: being related to Nancy being killed and the offender getting

913
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:52,160
Speaker 3: out of there.

914
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: There is a report of an unfamiliar prowler in the

915
00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: area around this time. They're not saying this night, but

916
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 2: around this time. So this is one of the more

917
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,520
Speaker 2: vague descriptions. Five foot nine, one hundred and seventy pounds

918
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 2: having a Glenn Campbell style haircut. Okay, right, because you

919
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 2: had that look on your face, I got you a

920
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: photo of Glenn Campbell so you could see his haircut.

921
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 2: That's on page five.

922
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,000
Speaker 3: Well, I can actually, you know what, I actually can.

923
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: I can remember what he looked like. You did. I

924
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 3: think I know what you're talking about.

925
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 2: It's a smart cut.

926
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, no, I absolutely, that's exactly what I was

927
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 3: I was saying. Now, this is a fairly popular hairstyle

928
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 3: for guys in the nineteen seventy, so it really isn't

929
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 3: something that is all that useful. But that's interesting.

930
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I think it's making a comeback

931
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,800
Speaker 2: because I feel like half the boys at my kids'

932
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 2: school have this sort of haircut. Now, if you go

933
00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:50,399
Speaker 2: right below that, but don't go past page six, you'll

934
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 2: see the sketch Okay, so this is what somebody said

935
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 2: the prowler looked like. Who may or may not have

936
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 2: anything to do with this case, but we like looking

937
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 2: at sketches and from sketch artists, and you know, you

938
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 2: tell me, on a scale of one to ten compared

939
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 2: to the other ones we've had, what do you think

940
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: about this sketch.

941
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 3: I'm having a hard time seeing how they generated this.

942
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 3: If this was through a what did we call him?

943
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 3: It was? You had these identa sketches, these kits that

944
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 3: had sort of standardized eyes and nose, and you could

945
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 3: kind of piece like a jigsaw puzzle, like.

946
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 2: A Mister Potato Head for offenders.

947
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 3: Sort of yeah, you know, and so the you know,

948
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 3: the the witness would sit there and say, no, the

949
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 3: eyes are bigger or smaller, and they would just swap

950
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 3: out those pieces here, you know, because it almost looks

951
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,400
Speaker 3: like that's what it is. I just can't see because

952
00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 3: you could normally see the kind of the lines between

953
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 3: the different parts. But he doesn't look very generic. You know.

954
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 3: There appears to be some facial details, you know, sort

955
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 3: of this large round chin and you know, the bigger eyes,

956
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,399
Speaker 3: and of course that hairstyle to where I could see

957
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 3: where that that might be a decent enough sketch for

958
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 3: somebody go oh, I think I know who that is.

959
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: Well, we'll see if it's helpful at all. So where

960
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: we are now is police and Sacramento are trying to

961
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: find this woman. Clearly they're working hard at it. They've

962
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,880
Speaker 2: interviewed five hundred people, and they are going to now

963
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 2: start looking at her inner circle, so her fiance, her friends,

964
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 2: they look at her own father. They're really digging around here.

965
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 2: So we are also going to need to talk a

966
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 2: little bit about another murder that happens that is very

967
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 2: close and is very familiar, and it makes police wonder

968
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 2: if there's a serial killer at work in nineteen seventy Sacramento.

969
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: But this is all stuff we have to talk about

970
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 2: next week. Of course, I know you like this case.

971
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 2: You really you perk up with it, so I know

972
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,839
Speaker 2: this is kind of your thing. I find it so interesting,

973
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: you know how cases were investigated, especially in the nineteen

974
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: seventies when we were sort of on the edge of

975
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: really being able to figure out some pretty cool stuff.

976
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,640
Speaker 2: But just please collect all your evidence, even if you think,

977
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 2: Lord knows what people are not collecting right now, which

978
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,880
Speaker 2: could be incredibly helpful in forty years with technology. So

979
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 2: I think that to me, so far as the lesson,

980
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 2: please collect the semen sample.

981
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,879
Speaker 3: Yes please? So okay, So it sounds like we have

982
00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 3: another case that I'm going to listen to and we'll

983
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 3: see if it's related or not.

984
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:22,919
Speaker 2: You got it? Okay, see you next week.

985
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 3: All right? Sounds good.

986
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

987
00:51:31,040 --> 00:51:34,200
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot

988
00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 3: com slash Buried Bones sources.

989
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi.

990
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson.

991
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Toliday.

992
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

993
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:50,920
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

994
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,320
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgaroff, Georgia hard Stark, and Daniel Kramer.

995
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

996
00:51:59,080 --> 00:51:59,800
Speaker 2: Buried Bones.

997
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

998
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

999
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and.

1000
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving America's cold cases.

1001
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: Is also available now.

1002
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:17,719
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1003
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:19,799
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