Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a bride Egg,
Speaker 2: Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, fridagg, Frida Egg,
Speaker 2: Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the course.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg podcast.
Speaker 2: Today I am joined by Joseph Lamania. He is a
Speaker 2: regular contributor to The Friday Egg the Fridaygg podcast as
Speaker 2: well as one of the co hosts of Full Swing Thoughts,
Speaker 2: are podcast that breaks down every episode of the Netflix
Speaker 2: documentary Full Swing. So I had Joseph on obviously, he's uh,
Speaker 2: he's been on this podcast before. He gets in the
Speaker 2: nitty gritty on data, offers kind of a fresh perspective
Speaker 2: on golf. So I wanted to discuss with him what
Speaker 2: we've seen thus far with the PGA Tour calendar, the
Speaker 2: elevated events or designated events, and the recent weeks, as
Speaker 2: well as get into a little bit of a discussion
Speaker 2: about data and golf courses. And you know, I think
Speaker 2: we have different viewpoints on what we think are great tests.
Speaker 2: And it was interesting to talk about short part fours
Speaker 2: on the PGA Tour, So before we get into that,
Speaker 2: I figured i'd throw together a little intro here, and
Speaker 2: you know, with a couple of designated events under our belt,
Speaker 2: the season's kind of starting to take form, and one
Speaker 2: of my favorite aspects of when we go to from
Speaker 2: the West Coast Swing to the Florida Swing, it's maybe
Speaker 2: my only favorite aspect of it. I get really sad
Speaker 2: when we leave the West Coast. But it is now
Speaker 2: Masters prep season, and I know the players is in there,
Speaker 2: but really everybody's got their eyes on Augusta. So I
Speaker 2: figured i'd do a very early ten Masters favorites. So
Speaker 2: this is being recorded on the twenty third of February
Speaker 2: for anybody that listens later. These are my ten favorites
Speaker 2: heading into the Masters. This is way too early, but
Speaker 2: starting to think about it, maybe you could get some
Speaker 2: value on some of these guys if you're looking to
Speaker 2: do that type of thing. So at number ten, I've
Speaker 2: got Jason Day. He's got four starts in twenty twenty three,
Speaker 2: T eighteen, T seven, fifth, and T nine, and obviously
Speaker 2: that comes at some of the designated events. He's one
Speaker 2: of the best Masters players that hasn't won. His career
Speaker 2: at Augustin National is incredible. So at number nine, we've
Speaker 2: got Dustin Johnson, who knows how he's playing. If he's
Speaker 2: been playing obviously with liv it kind of you've got
Speaker 2: new benchmarks in terms of how you judge Town and
Speaker 2: DJ incredible career at Augusta National, obviously won the Fall
Speaker 2: Masters a couple of years ago. But he's Dustin Johnson.
Speaker 2: I think at this point he still needs to be
Speaker 2: on your first page of favorites because he's such a
Speaker 2: talented player. At number eight, i've got Tony Fenow. He's
Speaker 2: played really well at Augusta before. He's elite in every
Speaker 2: facet of the game of golf except for with the putter,
Speaker 2: and really, if he just puts well in a given weeks,
Speaker 2: he's got to be at the top of your list
Speaker 2: of favorites. So if that putter's hot, I love him.
Speaker 2: At Augusta obviously, he was in the final group with
Speaker 2: Tiger back in twenty nineteen, so a place that he's
Speaker 2: had success. He also almost won it on a broken ankle.
Speaker 2: So my next guy is Justin Thomas at number seven.
Speaker 2: He's not really playing great. I think, you know, we
Speaker 2: see JT kind of ebb and flow in form. I
Speaker 2: think if we were looking at one of our one
Speaker 2: of the critiques of Justin Thomas as a player is
Speaker 2: the consistency's not there. But that being said, when he's hot,
Speaker 2: a few players can get as hot as him. He
Speaker 2: had his best finish ever at last year's Masters. If
Speaker 2: you kind of look at his chart, it's always been
Speaker 2: confounding why he hasn't played well at Augusta National. He
Speaker 2: played pretty well last year, and I think if he
Speaker 2: can figure out like the thirteenth T shot, that is
Speaker 2: a big thing that's really plagued him the way he's
Speaker 2: played thirteen, if he just cleans that up, all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, you're looking at a guy that'll be really
Speaker 2: in the mix. So number six Will Zlataurus and I
Speaker 2: talk with Joseph a little bit about Will in this podcast.
Speaker 2: But you know, after listening to the Laing Ups podcast,
Speaker 2: I was a little worried with the back injury, just
Speaker 2: because he talked about changing his golf swing, and he's
Speaker 2: been such an elite ball striker in his young career
Speaker 2: that that's scary. It was awesome to see him play
Speaker 2: so well at Riviera. I think it put to bed
Speaker 2: a lot of doubts that maybe he, you know, wouldn't
Speaker 2: be the same type of player. I saw that he
Speaker 2: was talking about going full speed in ap so this
Speaker 2: is you know, he played great at Riviera without going
Speaker 2: really ramping up and going at the ball the way
Speaker 2: we've been accustomed to see with his you know, just
Speaker 2: he's sensational from t de Green. He's played great at
Speaker 2: Augusta National. Obviously, it's a huge iron test, and there
Speaker 2: are a few in the world that are better iron
Speaker 2: players than will Zalatrus one of those players that might
Speaker 2: be I think it's a good argument. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I'm not ready to declare one of them better than
Speaker 2: the other. Is my number five pick, Colin Morikawa. He
Speaker 2: finished fifth last year at the Masters. In his first
Speaker 2: Masters he finished forty fourth, the second Master's eighteenth. Last
Speaker 2: year fifth. That tells me somebody's kind of figuring out
Speaker 2: the golf course. He's plenty. He's not long, obviously, but
Speaker 2: he's long enough for Augusta. And you know, that iron play,
Speaker 2: like what we just talked about with will Zala torres Is,
Speaker 2: is such a weapon at Augusta National. And he's been
Speaker 2: playing really, really well. He has gotten the notoriety of
Speaker 2: a Ram or a Rory or a Scheffler, but he's
Speaker 2: doing everything this year except for winning. So number four
Speaker 2: we've got cam Smith. Honestly, it feels low for cam
Speaker 2: at four again he kind of falls in the DJ bucket.
Speaker 2: What do you make of live? And you know, is
Speaker 2: he going to be really competitive coming into the Masters?
Speaker 2: I think all that aside, it's hard to put him
Speaker 2: anywhere but here he has nearly won two Masters, he
Speaker 2: is the reigning Open champion, and he arguably put together
Speaker 2: the best twenty twenty three of any player. This is
Speaker 2: just a course that fits his game so well. Obviously
Speaker 2: we've seen some Australians play really well, but there's enough
Speaker 2: width for his you know driver that can get a
Speaker 2: little squirrely, and then around the greens he's just a magician.
Speaker 2: So you know with cam Smith, the thing with the
Speaker 2: putting and around the greens, it's just so hard for
Speaker 2: him to surrender strokes, So I still have them at
Speaker 2: number four. Number three is Scotty Scheffler, and this is
Speaker 2: again you know, this is a testament to the top two.
Speaker 2: But Scotty won at Scott Steale. He's obviously the reigning
Speaker 2: Masters champion. He's great at every facet of the game
Speaker 2: of golf, and there aren't many guys that can say
Speaker 2: that they're excellent at every facet, but Scotty Scheffler is
Speaker 2: one of them. So at three, you know, it's kind
Speaker 2: of crazy that he's the third pick, but you know
Speaker 2: that's because at number two is Rory McElroy. And I
Speaker 2: think if you look back to last year's Masters, really,
Speaker 2: if you look at his OWGR page, the consistency is
Speaker 2: unbelievable and for Rory, like he can play bad at
Speaker 2: these majorss, he can have disappointing majors and it's like
Speaker 2: a fifth or an eighth place finish. And I don't
Speaker 2: know many players on this list. I don't know if
Speaker 2: there are any that are in that same vein like
Speaker 2: where it feels like a top ten is a disappointment.
Speaker 2: I mean, we saw John Rahm have a really bad
Speaker 2: year in Major's life year and really wasn't competitive in
Speaker 2: most of them. So, like, you know, that's a testament
Speaker 2: to Rory. His floor is obviously way higher than everybody
Speaker 2: else's and you know, last year at the Masters he
Speaker 2: seemed pretty happy. It was like seemed like the first
Speaker 2: time he walked away from the Masters happy. Maybe he
Speaker 2: goes and wins this year. I'm falling into the Rory trap.
Speaker 2: But it definitely feels like he's in a little bit
Speaker 2: different headspace than a lot of years going into the Masters.
Speaker 2: Number one, John ram I'm not sure how you could
Speaker 2: put anybody else here at this point. You know, he's
Speaker 2: got three PGA Tour wins and the year is just
Speaker 2: through the West Coast. It's I think I saw that
Speaker 2: he's the fastest three wins since Johnny Miller on the
Speaker 2: PGA Tour. Obviously, the it's not insignificant the places that
Speaker 2: he's won. Also, Kapalua is actually a great comp for
Speaker 2: Augusta National because of the severity of the slight side
Speaker 2: slopes that you face and pretty severe greens that you
Speaker 2: hit in. So Kapalua is a great comp for Augusta National.
Speaker 2: It's a place that he's played really well the last
Speaker 2: two years. And then winning at Riviera, which is a
Speaker 2: really an iron test. You have to be on with
Speaker 2: your iron play at Riviera to win, and that's the
Speaker 2: same thing can be said about Augusta National. He's just
Speaker 2: performing at such a high level through the bag that
Speaker 2: it's hard to imagine him not being a contender at
Speaker 2: Augusta National, and I think he has to be the
Speaker 2: favorite right now. So that's my top ten leaning into
Speaker 2: the Masters. We'll probably do another one of these as
Speaker 2: we get closer, maybe after the Players, but that's what
Speaker 2: I've got as my top ten here about a little
Speaker 2: over a month out from the Masters. So without further ado,
Speaker 2: let's get to our conversation with Joseph Lamannia and thank
Speaker 2: you for listening. All right, Joseph, welcome back. Excited to talk.
Speaker 2: It's obviously been a world wind of a West Coast Swing.
Speaker 2: I think for the most part for the PGA Tour,
Speaker 2: it's been very positive. As Live kicks off this week
Speaker 2: down in Mayacoba, there's a lot of things to talk
Speaker 2: about there, but I wanted to get your thoughts and
Speaker 2: big takeaways from the West Coast Swing.
Speaker 1: I think it's been awesome. Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm super excited to do this. I thought the West
Speaker 1: Coast Swing was awesome. It delivers every single year, but
Speaker 1: I think this year in particular, it delivered with all
Speaker 1: the best players being at a couple of those events,
Speaker 1: Kapalua Waste Management Genesis. It's awesome to see those guys
Speaker 1: go head to head and it's not a coincidence that
Speaker 1: we got some good duels down the stretch. When you
Speaker 1: get all the best players in the world on the
Speaker 1: same golf course, so a lot to be excited about.
Speaker 1: As somebody who follows the tour.
Speaker 2: I guess, like one thing I had a question about,
Speaker 2: why is it that these events, and this is something
Speaker 2: that I've been kind of thinking about a little bit,
Speaker 2: is like, why do these events feel different than wg's.
Speaker 2: Is it just because they're new and have a different name,
Speaker 2: or is there a tangible reason why these events so
Speaker 2: far feel more competitive more interesting than the WGCs did
Speaker 2: as of even last year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I have
Speaker 1: a great answer to that. The two things that come
Speaker 1: to mind. I think there is something to having a cut.
Speaker 1: I do think it's additive to the tournament. And whether
Speaker 1: or not elevated events in the future have cuts, I
Speaker 1: guess remains to be seen, but I think it does
Speaker 1: add something, and it adds a little bit of character
Speaker 1: starting on the first day versus the first day of
Speaker 1: a WGC feels really flat. The other thing that I
Speaker 1: guess I would mention is I just think there's something
Speaker 1: to the flow of a season, and like in the NFL,
Speaker 1: when you start to get snow games in like November
Speaker 1: and December, there's just like kind of a vibe to
Speaker 1: each sports schedule, and I think the PGA Tour just
Speaker 1: starts off with a lot of energy in January through
Speaker 1: let's say April. I don't know if the elevated events
Speaker 1: late July would pop the same way that these have,
Speaker 1: But I don't know. Just a couple of thoughts that
Speaker 1: come to mind, but I agree these these have been popping.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is just a very advantageous time
Speaker 2: for the PGA Tour. And I don't want to dismiss
Speaker 2: how I advantageous it is to be on the West Coast.
Speaker 2: Just telecast times are better. I was looking, you know,
Speaker 2: and I'm a recent movie out to the West Coast,
Speaker 2: but I was looking at at times for this week's Honda.
Speaker 2: It's just crazy. It's like, oh, the first tea times
Speaker 2: at three point fifty in the morning. For me, Like,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm pretty into PGA Tour golf and it's
Speaker 2: like for me to fire up, like the golf's over by,
Speaker 2: you know, roughly like two o'clock. It's hard for somebody
Speaker 2: working to watch that. Or when you look at the weekends,
Speaker 2: you know who your demo is, it's you know, kind
Speaker 2: of middle aged people, and it's like your demo has
Speaker 2: activities like mornings are when school activities are not school
Speaker 2: activities like sports activities are, and so weekend mornings are hard.
Speaker 2: And when you get to this, you know, off the
Speaker 2: west one of the things West Coast does and like,
Speaker 2: you know, I think I'm all for it visiting different
Speaker 2: parts of the country, and I think it should. But
Speaker 2: like if the PGA Tour somehow figured out a way
Speaker 2: to play the majority of events on the West Coast,
Speaker 2: I think that they would get drastically better TV ratings.
Speaker 1: I think that could be true. Also, like maybe people
Speaker 1: need an off week and maybe you have to lean
Speaker 1: into that a little bit of like, all right, if
Speaker 1: somebody just spent a lot of time watching Genesis on
Speaker 1: their weekend, and then I also spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time watching the Phoenix Open, maybe some of the Honda classics,
Speaker 1: like a catch up week in your life and you're
Speaker 1: doing other things other than watching golf, like for most
Speaker 1: ordinary people, and maybe they tour needs to lean into
Speaker 1: that a little bit, and the Honta Classics just not
Speaker 1: going to put up that kind of viewership numbers. Like
Speaker 1: having expecting fans to watch all of these events back
Speaker 1: to back to back weekends is a pretty big ask.
Speaker 2: Oddly, this week, I'm actually like more excited about the
Speaker 2: Honda than I have in weeks in years prior. And
Speaker 2: I think it's because now it has actually like an
Speaker 2: identity and it's not I know, they haven't come out
Speaker 2: and said this, and they haven't done it with FedEx
Speaker 2: cup points. You know, it's still worth the same amount
Speaker 2: as last week, which is absolutely insane. But for some reason,
Speaker 2: I do I am more excited about this week because
Speaker 2: I know it's not a big event and I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: this is a smaller event, like maybe we'll see some
Speaker 2: new names, and that actually excites me as a fan
Speaker 2: that tunes in every single week.
Speaker 1: I agree one idea that I'm passionate about that I
Speaker 1: think we talked about briefly on one of these Frida
Speaker 1: egg pods, I don't know, five months ago. I do
Speaker 1: think we should have two separate points lists. One of
Speaker 1: them is the playoff points list, so that can be
Speaker 1: your FedEx Cut points. Those are only given out at
Speaker 1: the designated events. And then you could have qualification points,
Speaker 1: which Pomcast points. Sure it's the international currency that translates
Speaker 1: into corn Fairy Tour points translates into Latino America points
Speaker 1: like that. Great, everything's in one and so then I
Speaker 1: think it'd be really cool if the Honda Classic you
Speaker 1: have guys playing for money but also for those points
Speaker 1: while you're not diminishing or diluting the FedEx Cup playoff points,
Speaker 1: and then it would really have an identity. I think
Speaker 1: that would flow pretty well with what you're describing. Well.
Speaker 2: What it would do also is it would have like
Speaker 2: significance throughout this event, not just the winner, right, because
Speaker 2: then it would be guys playing their way through points
Speaker 2: into the elevated event. It's like the most important thing
Speaker 2: about elevated event going forward. I feel very strongly about
Speaker 2: this is it can't be just off of like the
Speaker 2: last year's performance. There has to be ways for guys
Speaker 2: to play their way in in the season, otherwise it's
Speaker 2: a monumental fail.
Speaker 1: I agree with you. I think the qualification points is
Speaker 1: a way you could do that. Also, having fewer golfers
Speaker 1: who are fully exempt for the next year is going
Speaker 1: to take a step in that direction, right because it
Speaker 1: was one hundred and twenty five before that got full exempt,
Speaker 1: that they had their full status into the next year.
Speaker 1: Now it's going to be seventy, So it does open
Speaker 1: up some spots. One random idea, be interested in your
Speaker 1: take on. I do think whether it's FedEx cut points
Speaker 1: or like the separate list, I think fans need to
Speaker 1: start to understand the point system a little better and
Speaker 1: maybe like having.
Speaker 2: A drop of the office the shroop bucks, what's a
Speaker 2: shroop buck worth?
Speaker 1: Sure? But I think maybe having a drop off between
Speaker 1: like okay, tenth place and eleventh place is a steeper
Speaker 1: drop off than just kind of the linear progression that's
Speaker 1: built into the point, so fans can start to understand,
Speaker 1: oh wow, like finishing in the top ten is a
Speaker 1: big is a bigger deal, like this shot is worth
Speaker 1: a lot, Like just building in a little more context somewhere,
Speaker 1: like whether it's top ten, top fifteen. I kind of
Speaker 1: think that might be additive on a Sunday when you
Speaker 1: have a player who's tied for twenty fifth trying to
Speaker 1: push for like a top ten spot.
Speaker 2: What if here's just like off of that idea, just
Speaker 2: a thought. What if it was like your point points
Speaker 2: are distributed by how close to the lead you are,
Speaker 2: and if you run away with a tournament and win
Speaker 2: by five, you get more points, and then all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, down the stretch you have say it's a snoozer,
Speaker 2: like somebody's up by four or five and they're pushing
Speaker 2: to get up by more so that they get more points.
Speaker 2: So the points are distributed based off of the proximity
Speaker 2: to the lead, because like a tenth place where you're
Speaker 2: eight shots back is way different than a tenth place
Speaker 2: when you're two shots back and have a real shot
Speaker 2: to win.
Speaker 1: I need to think about it more. I do think
Speaker 1: when a player is winning, the only thing he should
Speaker 1: be focused on is winning. I do think that's true.
Speaker 1: But I like the idea of building in additional layers
Speaker 1: of context, like what what is this person who's in second,
Speaker 1: who's three clear of the guy in third and three
Speaker 1: behind the leader? What's he playing for?
Speaker 2: Like? Yeah, exactly, that's what kind of right. It's like,
Speaker 2: there's there's way different places, right if you lose, say,
Speaker 2: say Rory and rom are duking it out and they're
Speaker 2: like both seven clear of third place, and we have
Speaker 2: like an open between Stenson and Phil going on where
Speaker 2: nobody else on the golf course matters. I feel like
Speaker 2: those two guys should get more points than they would
Speaker 2: normally get for like compared to a tournament that's completely
Speaker 2: up for grabs, and a good balance on the eighteenth
Speaker 2: hole is what ends up leading to somebody winning.
Speaker 1: There's I think there's a balance to be struck though,
Speaker 1: because I don't want to over engineer this thing, and
Speaker 1: fans need to have their minds wrapped around what somebody's
Speaker 1: playing for and what it means. So I wouldn't want
Speaker 1: to make it like, Okay, well you don't really know
Speaker 1: how many points he gets until we run some math
Speaker 1: after the like, you know, an hour after the tournament,
Speaker 1: Like it's got to be pretty clear to figure out that.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, maybe something I'll play around with in my
Speaker 1: head a little bit. Try to think about what do
Speaker 1: you just while you're saying that, what do you think
Speaker 1: about being able to like pay one hundred and fifty
Speaker 1: FedEx cut points for a Mulligan in an event you
Speaker 1: can cash in some of your points.
Speaker 2: I think that's an appbsolutely absurd.
Speaker 3: I'm kidding, I'm kidding, but it is just funny to
Speaker 3: think about in terms of like, uh, all right, and
Speaker 3: if if they had like real FedEx cup point currency
Speaker 3: that they handed in, you know, like they call the
Speaker 3: rules official over hand at the currency end, I would
Speaker 3: be in on that whole process.
Speaker 2: They should maybe do it with t I O relief
Speaker 2: since that's because.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you might might be what Shaffley
Speaker 1: did in Phoenix.
Speaker 2: Yeah, built up some goodwill in the on the Tour
Speaker 2: of Gentlemen and and gotta got a friendly drop. Any
Speaker 2: other take takeaways from the West Coast Swing, uh, players
Speaker 2: are or course specific?
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of takeaways. Phoenix is awesome. I think
Speaker 1: I already had a high opinion of that golf course,
Speaker 1: but it definitely went up. And that's one question that
Speaker 1: I kind of had for you in my notes Andy,
Speaker 1: as as I was preparing for this pod, like when
Speaker 1: we start to talking about elevating certain events and then
Speaker 1: rotating some of those venues, and some events being elevated
Speaker 1: one year and not another year, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you can de elevate the Phoenix Open and like what
Speaker 1: they have built there, it's a tough question, right, Like,
Speaker 1: if that's not an elevated event and if they don't
Speaker 1: get a super strong field one year, I don't know
Speaker 1: that you're really rewarding one of the tour stops that's
Speaker 1: done something really special with what they've built. So I
Speaker 1: love the Phoenix Open. I think that's a tough question
Speaker 1: to handle. If you're the tour and how you build
Speaker 1: this new schedule, what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think venues matter a lot, and
Speaker 2: I if I weren't gonna say one of the things
Speaker 2: that is different about these designated events than the wgc's
Speaker 2: you know why they felt different was you were playing
Speaker 2: at Kapalua. You were playing waste management with all the
Speaker 2: fans on Super Bowl week, Like that was fricking awesome
Speaker 2: on a lot of levels, Like is like this is
Speaker 2: the sixteenth hole like my favorite thing in the world. No,
Speaker 2: but it's really cool and it's a one of one
Speaker 2: experience in golf, and that's the type of things that
Speaker 2: you want these tournaments to like, that's what they should
Speaker 2: all be trying to become their own version, like their
Speaker 2: own authentic self, which is what the Phoenix Open is not.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying they should all try and be the
Speaker 2: Phoenix Open. They should all be what they can be,
Speaker 2: do better than anybody else in the Phoenix Opens. Doing
Speaker 2: that there they throw a party better than anybody else
Speaker 2: on tour, and that's why it's thrived, all right. So
Speaker 2: with that in mind, like you go from Phoenix Open
Speaker 2: then to Riviera the best golf course, like you just like,
Speaker 2: I mean, those are three really great unique venues. So
Speaker 2: when we talk about elevating things like, is elevating the
Speaker 2: three m really gonna do that much? Or is that
Speaker 2: that's when I think you run into are you actually
Speaker 2: just is this just the WGC? Because the WGC kind
Speaker 2: of was like a great It was like whipped cream
Speaker 2: on shit, right, all right, this is a really shitty venue.
Speaker 2: Like the match play was great the last few years
Speaker 2: at Austin and I'm really sad that's going. But like
Speaker 2: the other ones, the one at Memphis awful. You know,
Speaker 2: Firestone was so tired by the end of that thing.
Speaker 2: Mexico was not. I mean it actually kind of was
Speaker 2: an interesting golf course because of how short it was,
Speaker 2: you know, but it again where it all fell short,
Speaker 2: like the TP that the course they went to in
Speaker 2: China was like a disaster, you know. So you start
Speaker 2: to look at it, and the venues were the issue.
Speaker 2: They never prioritize venues. They don't prioritize venues for the
Speaker 2: most part, but venues are really really important. Like I was,
Speaker 2: I did an intro to the last podcast where I
Speaker 2: talked about how you could do venues and such, and
Speaker 2: I was thinking about certain past tournaments and like one
Speaker 2: of some of the most memorable tournaments on the PGA
Speaker 2: Tour in recent years were the Olympia Fields event with
Speaker 2: no fans when Rom and DJ duked it out. That
Speaker 2: was an incredible tournament. Is at a former US Open course.
Speaker 2: I remember the Bethpage tournament that Patrick Reed won was
Speaker 2: a really good finish. The Ridgewood tournament that Bryson one
Speaker 2: that was soaked was really good tournament. Like, it's very
Speaker 2: rare when you go to a great venue that you
Speaker 2: get a bad tournament.
Speaker 1: I agree. Look, venue is a huge part of why
Speaker 1: something's exciting. I think Phoenix Couples a good golf course
Speaker 1: with some serious character, and that's the big question I have, like,
Speaker 1: if you were to de elevate it for a year
Speaker 1: and take some of the wind out of the sales
Speaker 1: of an event that's been building and building and building
Speaker 1: towards something special, what does that do for the Phoenix
Speaker 1: Open over the long run? Like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: you can tell them you're only going to get a
Speaker 1: great field every three years. So I hear you on
Speaker 1: the venues, It's just there's a lot to balance, and
Speaker 1: I don't envy all the puzzle pieces that they have
Speaker 1: to put together.
Speaker 2: I think you could make a case for Phoenix is
Speaker 2: strong enough on its own. You have enough tour players
Speaker 2: as long as you don't do what they did to
Speaker 2: the Honda this week, where you have, like you know,
Speaker 2: four elevated sandwich between four elevated events. I think you
Speaker 2: could make the case that that will still draw a
Speaker 2: very good field, and that event might not need a
Speaker 2: top tier field to be great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess money is what you're incentivizing them with, right,
Speaker 1: Like what we'll see what these purses look like. But
Speaker 1: if I'm John Rahm, why do I go play Phoenix?
Speaker 2: They have to play three non elevated event right, right?
Speaker 2: So and I live in Phoenix. This is an easy
Speaker 2: one for me to do. Like, you know, a perfect
Speaker 2: example when we're doing our event schedule for the fried
Speaker 2: Egg where I live, and if it's an event, if
Speaker 2: I could sleep in my own bed, it's like a
Speaker 2: no brainer to host an event, right.
Speaker 1: I hear you. I have a little I have a
Speaker 1: little bit of an aversion to like a stipulation that
Speaker 1: you have to play three non elevate events. It just
Speaker 1: might be necessary, and like that's what that's the hard
Speaker 1: part of what they're doing with trying to build out
Speaker 1: this schedule and get people to show up for the
Speaker 1: non elevated events. It's a difficult challenge.
Speaker 2: What do you think the ideal? So we have the
Speaker 2: four majors we have and then the rest are going
Speaker 2: to be tour events. Honestly, these some of these elevated events,
Speaker 2: like I think Riviera, now that the cash is up
Speaker 2: near the players, that's just a flat out better event
Speaker 2: than the players. And I know that the tour will
Speaker 2: hate to hear that, but it is. It's a better
Speaker 2: tournament than the players. It has more history, it has
Speaker 2: is to at a better golf course, and it's in
Speaker 2: a better place it's a better place to go watch
Speaker 2: golf just in general. Though, like by I'm wondering what
Speaker 2: is the exact what's the right number of events for
Speaker 2: a top player making a schedule. I think it's like fifteen,
Speaker 2: so fifteen non non majors.
Speaker 1: No, including majors. I think fifteen sixteen events is a
Speaker 1: reasonable schedule for a top player, pretty much in line
Speaker 1: with like an NFL schedule. Also, I think it's one
Speaker 1: of the ways I'm thinking about this, not just from
Speaker 1: a player's perspective, but how many weekends a year do
Speaker 1: we think we can demand a fan's attention, And I
Speaker 1: think sixteen is kind of pushing the upper bounds there.
Speaker 1: I think fifteen sixteen is a reasonable number. What's your answer?
Speaker 2: I wasn't sure. I was curious what your take is.
Speaker 2: It feels where they're at right now, feels about right.
Speaker 2: I think the tricky thing is gonna be how you
Speaker 2: fit it all into eight months. That's hard. It's gonna
Speaker 2: be really hard with their you know, with the goal
Speaker 2: of being January to August is really it seems like
Speaker 2: that's their steadfast. It's just hard to me because it limits,
Speaker 2: you know, I think a lot of people want this
Speaker 2: to have some international flavor to it, and if you
Speaker 2: are sticking with January to August, I think it's gonna
Speaker 2: be super hard to have more than like one international
Speaker 2: elevated event.
Speaker 1: I do, this is probably never gonna happen. I think
Speaker 1: one thing that would help them out a lot is
Speaker 1: to get rid of the first two playoff events. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I'm not kidding.
Speaker 2: I think gag rid of the playoffs would be the
Speaker 2: best thing they could do.
Speaker 1: Just have a Tour Championship, eight guys match play, that's
Speaker 1: the finale, and all these other elevated events are how
Speaker 1: you earn points into that. That would be so sweet,
Speaker 1: Like top eight from Riviera, Waste Management, Kapalua. Just just
Speaker 1: those twelve events the majors like the players, and that
Speaker 1: just the top eight guys played the Tour Championship. That'd
Speaker 1: be sweet. What purpose are the playoffs serving other than
Speaker 1: I'm sure generating a ton of revenue, which I should
Speaker 1: not be dismissive of.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there's obviously the business reason. But if
Speaker 2: you were starting from a clean slate, and I think
Speaker 2: that you know when you're talking about this right now,
Speaker 2: and I think Live is like right now it's down, right,
Speaker 2: but it was down this time last year. And I
Speaker 2: think that it's easy to look at what they're doing now,
Speaker 2: lack of momentum, lack of big players that went there,
Speaker 2: and say it's dead. But I think that's a little
Speaker 2: bit foolish. And if you fall for if you're the
Speaker 2: tour in fall for that trap a second time, you know,
Speaker 2: it's the famous shame on you. It's nothing's ideal, but
Speaker 2: it's important with this type of thing, is like, hey,
Speaker 2: this is ideal if we had a clean slate, exactly
Speaker 2: how we would do it? How close can we get here?
Speaker 2: Because it seems like their partners are pretty open to this.
Speaker 2: And if you're fed acts, if we make this bigger
Speaker 2: and we make this better and we make this more interesting,
Speaker 2: that is good for you in the long run, right,
Speaker 2: And that has to be the messaging.
Speaker 1: Totally agree, And I think you have to start from
Speaker 1: the finish line and work your way backwards, Like what's
Speaker 1: the coolest possible final. I think it's match play, and
Speaker 1: I think it's a limited number of players, and how
Speaker 1: do you get there in the most exciting way? So
Speaker 1: that's my thought is you get rid of the playoffs.
Speaker 2: Always the bird. The match play doesn't work, always falls
Speaker 2: on when there's two players on the golf course. It
Speaker 2: doesn't work if you have eight, eight players every day
Speaker 2: playoff every single spot one through eight have big cash.
Speaker 2: Like if if JT Is playing Scottie Scheffler in the
Speaker 2: sixth match, in the sixth place match for three million
Speaker 2: dollarsference in earnings, guess what, that's going to be pretty
Speaker 2: freaking interesting to watch. None of these guys want to
Speaker 2: lose at that point.
Speaker 1: And we don't have a good way right now to
Speaker 1: look back on a year twenty fourteen, what happened on
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour? Who are the ten best players? Like
Speaker 1: you can use the FedEx Cup standings at the end
Speaker 1: of the year, but we know how systems kind of message, Well,
Speaker 1: it's the warship and now it's even worse.
Speaker 2: You have no clue. You have no clue when you
Speaker 2: look at it now.
Speaker 1: Exactly there's no time capsule, and this would serve as
Speaker 1: that time capsule. It's just eight guys and they're battling
Speaker 1: out every single spot. So yep, I like that.
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Speaker 1: Do we want to move on to some player takeaways
Speaker 1: from the Yes player Takeaways? I have like notes on
Speaker 1: probably five or six players, but only a couple that
Speaker 1: I felt had to hit on first. I think you
Speaker 1: have to lead with John Rahm playing some dominant sorry.
Speaker 2: The obvious one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I mean it's it's worth, it's worth hammering
Speaker 1: this point home. And I'm was really blown away at Genesis.
Speaker 1: Him not being good off the tee and winning that
Speaker 1: event by a couple of shots is really scary for
Speaker 1: players not named John Rahm on the PGA Tour. He's
Speaker 1: one of the best drivers in the world. He had
Speaker 1: an off driving week and he's still won one of
Speaker 1: the strongest fields in golf by multiple shots at a
Speaker 1: demanding course. His iron play and his putting was amazing. Like,
Speaker 1: good luck. If you plan on beating John Ram this year.
Speaker 2: Do you consider him head and shoulders above everybody else
Speaker 2: right now?
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty disrespectful to say head and shoulders
Speaker 1: above everybody else. I think it's still golf course dependent,
Speaker 1: but he is my favorite at the Masters as of
Speaker 1: this moment. I think Rory and Scheffler are right there.
Speaker 1: Like at Okill, I think Rory has as good of
Speaker 1: a chance as anybody. So I think a lot of
Speaker 1: venues would be like Rory and Rom coin flip, but
Speaker 1: certain venues I'd give the edge to Rom.
Speaker 2: What about you, Yeah, I think I'm a hard I
Speaker 2: have a hard time. I think like just think he
Speaker 2: threw golf in the way it works is like we
Speaker 2: haven't you know everybody like we see guys play like
Speaker 2: this and the reality of since two thousand and eight,
Speaker 2: the reality is is that it's very hard for anybody
Speaker 2: to sustain this for more than a couple months. And
Speaker 2: the thing I fear is that John Rom played his
Speaker 2: best golf from November and we look back and we're
Speaker 2: like John Ram from November of twenty twenty two till
Speaker 2: March of twenty three played the best golf of his career,
Speaker 2: you know, and it's a time capsule. Like we saw
Speaker 2: this with Hideki Matsuyama where he ripped off what four
Speaker 2: wins and six events, but it was in November, you know,
Speaker 2: And this is part of the thing with the schedule, right.
Speaker 2: So with John Rahm, like I he's one of the
Speaker 2: most consistent players in the world, right and he has
Speaker 2: been like one of the most consistent players we've ever
Speaker 2: seen since Tiger. But like my question is is this,
Speaker 2: does this putter, Does the putter that was really cold
Speaker 2: last year stay hot? Do we see that because like
Speaker 2: if all of sudden he becomes an average putter, you know,
Speaker 2: like he was last year, does this all work at
Speaker 2: such a high level. And I think the same thing's
Speaker 2: going on with like Rory. Rory was hot, and you know,
Speaker 2: I watched him play thirty six holes of golf last
Speaker 2: week and I was just after thirty six holes, I'm like,
Speaker 2: this guy did nothing on the greens, like made nothing,
Speaker 2: It had no spectacular breaks, and he's a couple shots
Speaker 2: off the league, you know. And to me, my kind
Speaker 2: of like is like those Scottie, Rory and rom I
Speaker 2: have in a different bucket because they've done things over
Speaker 2: the last eighteen months that like, and I think camp
Speaker 2: Smith probably deserves to be in that bucket too. And
Speaker 2: you look at those three guy or four guys and
Speaker 2: like they've done extraordinary feats over the last really year
Speaker 2: that other players haven't even sniffed that level, because I
Speaker 2: think there's those four guys and a really big drop
Speaker 2: off to the next group of guys.
Speaker 1: Well, I agree with most of that. I think a
Speaker 1: couple other golfers that I've at least one golfer I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about, is Colin Morikawah coming around on him?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 1: I heard, I watched him, I walked with him at
Speaker 1: Tory Pines. Unbelievable what I saw that day in the
Speaker 1: West Coast Wing. He finished t six at riv missed
Speaker 1: the cut in Phoenix, finished third at Farmers where he
Speaker 1: had a chance to win, and then the second place
Speaker 1: at the Tournament of Champions that he kind of blew
Speaker 1: that lead, he had a chance to win three big
Speaker 1: golf tournaments. Colin Morikawa is so every time I see
Speaker 1: him hit a bad shot, it feels like it shouldn't
Speaker 1: have happened, Like it just looks so natural, like he's
Speaker 1: gonna hit a good shot on every swing. And when
Speaker 1: he's getting it together like this, I would I'm really
Speaker 1: high on what his chances are of winning some big
Speaker 1: golf tournaments in twenty twenty three. So I don't think
Speaker 1: the drop off between like a cam Smith in a
Speaker 1: Morikawa is that huge. And that's coming from somebody who
Speaker 1: views cam Smith very highly.
Speaker 2: M hm.
Speaker 1: Right. Also, I throw Fenw in there too. I think
Speaker 1: for now is he's right, He's right there.
Speaker 2: That's interesting. I don't know. I was actually pretty impressed
Speaker 2: with zeal Taurus at Riviera. That was to me something
Speaker 2: I needed to see, just with hearing on the Nolaying
Speaker 2: Up podcast, Like what he's gone through to alleviate the
Speaker 2: back problems is like a swing change, and it's like
Speaker 2: the scary when you consider how good of a ball
Speaker 2: striker he was and seeing him play really at an
Speaker 2: elite level last week was was you know, I think
Speaker 2: like when you talk about majors, Like he's somebody that's
Speaker 2: kind of right there. So you know another guy that
Speaker 2: obviously I'm Jason Days only thirty five, he's put together
Speaker 2: some of the best golf we've seen out of anybody.
Speaker 2: And it wasn't that long ago. I mean we're talking
Speaker 2: twenty fifteen when he was playing at the best, you know,
Speaker 2: highest level of.
Speaker 1: Anybody in the game.
Speaker 2: Just a decade ago, eight years. I mean, I was
Speaker 2: just like I think, like when you talk about Augusta,
Speaker 2: he's sneakily getting into that like back end conversation of
Speaker 2: like this guy, this is a guy that could sneak
Speaker 2: in there and win because he's had unbelievable form. The
Speaker 2: golf course fits his game because of how good he
Speaker 2: is around the greens. Like the thing about Augusta to
Speaker 2: me is always like the guys that play great at
Speaker 2: Augusta regularly year and year out, they're either a super
Speaker 2: elite drivers or be super elite around the greens and
Speaker 2: know that if they are out of position, they can
Speaker 2: hit it over to a certain spot and get up
Speaker 2: and down the vast majority of the time. And he
Speaker 2: fits more into that bucket and he's got enough pop
Speaker 2: and enough talent that I think, like you know, to
Speaker 2: me him and Justin Rose, like those are sneaky back
Speaker 2: end of your card, potential dark horse masters guys.
Speaker 1: I think we should mention really hardcore iron tests Augusta.
Speaker 1: So like that. Jason Day started to hit his irons
Speaker 1: much better this past fall. He's been playing really well.
Speaker 1: Would He's also snuck inside the top fifty in the
Speaker 1: official World Golf rankings, and now I believe yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know about Sports Illustrated, but ficial World Golf rankings
Speaker 1: top fifty, and so he.
Speaker 2: Will about that.
Speaker 1: I view him much more positively than Rose personally, just
Speaker 1: based on what we've seen over the last four months.
Speaker 1: But yeah, those are guys to pay attention to. Other
Speaker 1: name we didn't talk about that. I think Warren so
Speaker 1: mention is Max Homa, who put together that's yeah, a
Speaker 1: great West Coast swing, second place at RIV one Farmers.
Speaker 1: It kind of snuck up on me that he finished
Speaker 1: tied for thirdieth century at Capelua, Like really good West
Speaker 1: Coast swing. He's won how many times in the last year,
Speaker 1: three Fortinette and Wells Fargo, Like Maxim was a real player,
Speaker 1: and anybody who dwells on the fact that he's like
Speaker 1: big on social media or like a social media golfer.
Speaker 1: He's not like he's he's now an elite golfer on
Speaker 1: the PGA Tour. He's shown you how many times I'm amazed.
Speaker 1: I mean, he's like a perfect example of like career progression,
Speaker 1: and he's a little bit of a throwback to what
Speaker 1: we are normally see when guys it takes time for
Speaker 1: guys to get comfortable in the in the professional setting,
Speaker 1: Like this is a player of the nineties where he
Speaker 1: gets better and better every year, and now he's having
Speaker 1: career years.
Speaker 2: I think he's in his early thirties, you know, and
Speaker 2: versus like, you know, what has become the norm is
Speaker 2: that he's just like phenoms that come out in their
Speaker 2: standouts from day one, You're Colin Morrikalis, and he's kind
Speaker 2: of the opposite of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look Maxoma at Farmers at toy he hit a
Speaker 1: couple of shots that just not many people have, I
Speaker 1: mean straight up like birdying eleven and sixteen, those part
Speaker 1: threes on Saturday, I guess. But his final round, there
Speaker 1: just aren't that many players who can step up and
Speaker 1: hit that shot when they're in contention. So was really
Speaker 1: impressed with Maxhoma.
Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about riv I know that you're
Speaker 2: not a universal praise of riv guy, You've got your questions.
Speaker 2: What is it about Riviera that falls a little short?
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna so I think it's important to say
Speaker 1: I think Rivier is one of the best courses on tour. Like,
Speaker 1: if it's not the best non major, it's right there,
Speaker 1: and it probably is the best non major. So I
Speaker 1: will preface my thoughts with that. I do think some
Speaker 1: of the criticism we like to throw around on other
Speaker 1: courses about being target golf like aren't always some of
Speaker 1: those those same arguments can be applied to Riviera. The
Speaker 1: other thing is that I don't think it always punishes
Speaker 1: you off the tee as much as I would like
Speaker 1: to see John Rahm with some really errant drives, like
Speaker 1: I'm thirteen and you're just not dead at Riviera in
Speaker 1: a way that I kind of like, I just when
Speaker 1: you hit a shot way offline, I want to see there,
Speaker 1: I want to see a serious penalty associated with that.
Speaker 1: So I think personally, I think holds one, four and
Speaker 1: fifteen are not compelling golf holes, and that if there
Speaker 1: are a couple of golf holes that I feel really
Speaker 1: negatively about. It's hard for me to give like the
Speaker 1: most glowing review, even though I do like the golf course.
Speaker 2: Would you feel differently about one if it was a
Speaker 2: part four? No?
Speaker 1: No, I don't ever view I think one whole one.
Speaker 1: I understand it's like a historic T shot, which I
Speaker 1: think is really cool. The T SHOT's cool. But if
Speaker 1: you want to, if you want to make criticisms about
Speaker 1: certain golf courses being target golf, household one like not
Speaker 1: household one, not target golf, I mean you want hit
Speaker 1: it high and straight like isn't that some of the
Speaker 1: criticism we give a lot of golf courses, like what's
Speaker 1: going on on Hoole one that I'm missing?
Speaker 2: I think the green's pretty cool, it's cool. It could
Speaker 2: be cooler with a with a restoration too. It had
Speaker 2: I think a little bit more going on than is
Speaker 2: there right now. If you expand it.
Speaker 1: It's really hard. It's really hard to stop your approach
Speaker 1: shot on that green, and I think that sort of
Speaker 1: turns into like, all right, high, how high can I
Speaker 1: hit it? And get to stop as quickly as possible,
Speaker 1: which is fine, but that's the same criticism we give
Speaker 1: a lot of other golf courses.
Speaker 2: I think that crossing hazard does like one of the
Speaker 2: things that it does do is it negates the distance
Speaker 2: advantage a little bit on a specific hole. The rest
Speaker 2: of the golf course, you know, there's a few places
Speaker 2: that it And this is what Sagres does too, right
Speaker 2: in negating distance. Is it as crossing hazards that prevent
Speaker 2: long hitter. And that's where you see I think a
Speaker 2: little bit more variety of playing styles at Riviera. So
Speaker 2: you got like five, you have one where these crossing hazards,
Speaker 2: you have eleven. If it's downwind, these guys can't hit
Speaker 2: driver on there. And then you know the drivable four
Speaker 2: at not driveable short four which we'll talk about ten
Speaker 2: is reachable for everybody now. So I think one of
Speaker 2: the things that the golf course in the way it
Speaker 2: presents itself, I think it's super democratic in the sense
Speaker 2: of like any type of player shows up at Riviera
Speaker 2: and does feel like they have a good chance. You know,
Speaker 2: if you're a little say, your driver's not your thing, right,
Speaker 2: I mean, Luke Donald has played well at Riviera in
Speaker 2: his career, you know, and he's pretty short and not straight,
Speaker 2: you know, And one of the reasons he could play
Speaker 2: well there was it allows him to beat people with
Speaker 2: his iron play and recovery play. Right. So to me,
Speaker 2: I am a big fan of places that allow players'
Speaker 2: skills to shine more so than punishing players in you know, inaccuracies.
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with you, and I'm not saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: just grow up the rough and then I'd be happy.
Speaker 1: That's not how I That's not how I feel about it.
Speaker 1: I just think when you blow a drive like way offline,
Speaker 1: I like to see it have a significant difference, even
Speaker 1: if it's still feasible to make par. I think it
Speaker 1: should be a lot harder to make par than if
Speaker 1: you hit a drive dead online. And thirteen is a
Speaker 1: really good example where rom like blew that thing so
Speaker 1: far left and if you're in the fair way the.
Speaker 2: Tree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was fine. He was fine over where his
Speaker 1: ball ended up. It's not gone where you want to be.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that was.
Speaker 2: I feel like you're discounting how good of a shot
Speaker 2: he hit out.
Speaker 1: Of there was Obviously it's a good shot. It's just
Speaker 1: like there are a lot of courses where you if
Speaker 1: you hit the ball that far off line, like you're
Speaker 1: you're not making you're not making par.
Speaker 2: Like I guess your thing is like Augusta, right, I
Speaker 2: know you love Augusta. And the premise behind what you're
Speaker 2: saying at Augusta is you have plenty of space to play,
Speaker 2: you know, the you have forty to fifty yards of space.
Speaker 2: But when you're off that, that's when it gets very
Speaker 2: very hard to make par right exactly.
Speaker 1: And it's possible if you hit a clever recovery shot
Speaker 1: and then you're probably chipping, but it is it's hard.
Speaker 1: And I'm not just like shooting from the hip here.
Speaker 1: I mean when I look at when I look at
Speaker 1: the data, like why misses at Riviera just aren't penalized
Speaker 1: that heavily.
Speaker 2: So I think an interesting topic here offshoot of this,
Speaker 2: like an interesting discussion of this, is that when you're
Speaker 2: designing golf courses for a tour pro, I think that
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of sense because you can design
Speaker 2: where there's you know, but when you're designing for everybody,
Speaker 2: that's where it gets really hard because most people can't
Speaker 2: keep it on the planet. Right. So I think, like
Speaker 2: the interesting thing is what makes a great golf course
Speaker 2: for everybody might not necessarily make a great golf course
Speaker 2: for testing tour professionals' ability to drive golf ball unless
Speaker 2: you know, and I hate I want to talk about
Speaker 2: the tenth. I hate living in absolutes. I hate it.
Speaker 2: I think that's like where golf architecture goes wrong. But
Speaker 2: I do understand what you're saying. But like you know,
Speaker 2: like the idea of the further you miss offline, the
Speaker 2: more trouble you get in is really hard for the
Speaker 2: eighteen handed gap.
Speaker 1: I don't I don't disagree with you, And I think
Speaker 1: that's maybe an unfortunate realization I've had over the past
Speaker 1: couple of years, is that like bifurcation in golf courses
Speaker 1: almost does make some life of sense. And I think Scottsdale, honestly,
Speaker 1: Andy is probably a good example. Like people love whole seventeen.
Speaker 1: I'm not as high on whole seventeen as a lot
Speaker 1: of people are, but people love whole seventeen. I mean,
Speaker 1: is that a great hole for a six handicap?
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think it. I think it's a
Speaker 2: fine hole. Let's talk about that. So Kevin Van Valkenberg
Speaker 2: from nolaying Up wrote a piece about the tenth Hole,
Speaker 2: and it was titled does the Tenth Hole Riviera Stink?
Speaker 2: Now I read this piece, we got a lot of
Speaker 2: quotes from players ranging from Rory to Tiger to Harris.
Speaker 2: English was in it. And I don't necessarily agree with
Speaker 2: the premise of Kevin's article, but I will say that
Speaker 2: Kevin's article made me think. It made me feel something.
Speaker 2: It made me like, you know, and that is the
Speaker 2: mark of a good article, is when it makes you think,
Speaker 2: it makes you feel something. With the tenth Hole. Really
Speaker 2: the criticism I think, like I have criticism of the
Speaker 2: tenth Hole? Do I think it stinks? And that became
Speaker 2: kind of some discourse this weekend. I don't. I think
Speaker 2: that it is. It is a few tiny tweaks away
Speaker 2: from being very very good. But I think the notion
Speaker 2: that I picked up on in the piece, and you
Speaker 2: can chime in here, is that the reason that the
Speaker 2: fifth the tenth hole might stink is that it's not fair.
Speaker 2: And the idea of fair is that the green is
Speaker 2: very very difficult to drive, and thus takes away the
Speaker 2: chance for an easy or for an attainable eagle we
Speaker 2: see a couple eagles a year at the tenth. But
Speaker 2: you know, I think where I struggle here is the premise.
Speaker 2: I think we're confusing things between short part four and
Speaker 2: drivable part four. The seventeenth at Scott's Sale, which everybody likes,
Speaker 2: I like it is a drivable part four. The tenth
Speaker 2: at Riviera should more be labeled a short part four.
Speaker 2: And one of the virtues of a well done short
Speaker 2: part four, I think, is that the interest comes in
Speaker 2: where you're placing your shot, and we see where guys
Speaker 2: want to place the shot, albeit it's very small places
Speaker 2: right now, and tenthl is drastically different based off of
Speaker 2: pin changes. Right like, some days being just short is
Speaker 2: the best spot to be, some days being long is
Speaker 2: a great spot to be. And if you did a
Speaker 2: little bit of work on the green, that just softened
Speaker 2: the severity of the front. I think that laying up
Speaker 2: would sometimes be a fashionable choice.
Speaker 1: I think that holds kind of far from where laying
Speaker 1: up is going to be a fashionable choice. I like
Speaker 1: whole ten a lot. I also, I would echo that
Speaker 1: I liked the KVV wrote that article because it made
Speaker 1: me think I disagree pretty strongly with it, I think
Speaker 1: where if I were to go down the unfair route.
Speaker 1: Golfer's dispersion patterns with driver are pretty wide. Right, they're
Speaker 1: hitting the ball three hundred yards, much wider than their
Speaker 1: dispersion patterns would have been one hundred years ago. When
Speaker 1: your target gets really small in a tenet riviera, it
Speaker 1: is small, right, you're going long left. Every player is
Speaker 1: doing that, almost every player. Once you start to introduce
Speaker 1: the bushes a little bit, I think that's where the
Speaker 1: unfair word starts to come out, and people are saying, well,
Speaker 1: if a lot of these shots are going to end
Speaker 1: up going in the bushes that are left of the green,
Speaker 1: you're leaving a lot to chance, like just who gets
Speaker 1: good lives? Who's not blocked by a bush? Like who?
Speaker 2: And those bushes weren't there originally, So this is a
Speaker 2: really important point. Those bushes weren't there originally, and the
Speaker 2: club has decided to leave them there.
Speaker 1: And that's where I can kind of get behind, like
Speaker 1: the more you leave to, the more upscoring you leave to,
Speaker 1: what kind of lie you get? That's more where chance
Speaker 1: and unfairness could come in. But I love the idea
Speaker 1: of a part four that nobody's hitting the green, and
Speaker 1: it's all about positioning yourself because in the modern game,
Speaker 1: part four, positioning is almost non existent. It is, it
Speaker 1: is basically non existent because you're you have so much
Speaker 1: spin on your second shot that your ball is just
Speaker 1: not rolling out that much. These guys are not thinking
Speaker 1: that much about which sides of the fairway they want
Speaker 1: to favor. They're trying to take hazards out and maximize
Speaker 1: their chance of hitting the fairway. That's almost true of
Speaker 1: every hole, and so to have a short four where
Speaker 1: you actually got to think a little bit about like,
Speaker 1: all right, if I miss this right, I'm dead, and
Speaker 1: I want to give myself some green to work with.
Speaker 1: When I hit this thirty yard chip, that's cool and
Speaker 1: we just don't see it. So I'm out on a
Speaker 1: lot of the sharp criticism of that hole because it
Speaker 1: introduces fireworks without even using a single water hazard. It's
Speaker 1: it's a cool hole.
Speaker 2: It has huge variability in scoring and out, which I
Speaker 2: think is is what you should be, you know, with
Speaker 2: the tour and the analytics that it provides. Like in
Speaker 2: some holes are great holes that don't have a ton
Speaker 2: of variability, but I think this is one of my
Speaker 2: big criticisms on the narrowing of Augusta National over the
Speaker 2: years was what they've been doing has been taking out
Speaker 2: outcome possible outcomes by removing players' abilities to do things right.
Speaker 2: And one of the things that the tenth at Riviera
Speaker 2: has is a wide range of outcomes. You can make three.
Speaker 2: You could it's out of the box. You could chip it. Like.
Speaker 2: The other thing that I like, I struggle with is
Speaker 2: like talking about like, oh, it's unfair. It's like if
Speaker 2: you're chipping, Like for the most part, these guys are chipping.
Speaker 2: They have such a higher chance of chipping in than
Speaker 2: hooping a seventy yard wedge.
Speaker 1: You know, right, Look I don't I don't disagree with you.
Speaker 2: But but anyways, like the idea, the other thing about
Speaker 2: the tenth at Review that I think is beautiful is
Speaker 2: that nobody, nobody is saying that it is a long
Speaker 2: part three. And I think that you could look at
Speaker 2: the seventeenth of Scottsdale and you could say that's more
Speaker 2: of a long par three than it is a short
Speaker 2: part four. The tenth at Riviera is a short part four.
Speaker 2: If you walk away from that hole with a four,
Speaker 2: you don't feel bad. If you walk away from TPC
Speaker 2: Scottsdale with a four, you feel bad. But from you
Speaker 2: know a ten at Riviera two to seven is in
Speaker 2: the cards and it could be just like a minuscule
Speaker 2: difference between walking away with an easy par and walking
Speaker 2: away with a six or seven.
Speaker 1: Agree. Huge point. I would add, if you think variance
Speaker 1: in scoring outcomes is important, take water, like you need
Speaker 1: to factor in water as well, because I could design
Speaker 1: a hole with a ton of variants. That's not a
Speaker 1: good hole because I just put water everywhere, and there's
Speaker 1: there's fours, there's eight, there's tens. Riviera does it without
Speaker 1: any use of a real penalty coming into play. And
Speaker 1: if somebody wants to say, well, like there's not that
Speaker 1: much variance in scoring outcomes. John Rahm made a difficult
Speaker 1: putt for bogie in his final round that was almost
Speaker 1: a double bogie, and like every player who plays that
Speaker 1: hole knows if they leave themselves in the wrong spot,
Speaker 1: they're gonna make a big number. The reason the variance
Speaker 1: isn't that high always is because nope, it's players are
Speaker 1: scared to take on some of the shots that result
Speaker 1: in a lot of variants. So that's cool.
Speaker 2: It's super cool when you see a guy around the
Speaker 2: green like ten yards from the hole chipping to thirty
Speaker 2: five feet in my opinion, because you're seeing and you
Speaker 2: see other guys go for it. You see real risk aversion,
Speaker 2: and you see other guys that go for it and
Speaker 2: are attempting to you know, like in a way, like
Speaker 2: everybody asks for this off the tee, but then when
Speaker 2: we get around the greens and people have to like
Speaker 2: lay up, then nobody wants it, you know. Like I
Speaker 2: think that we should be looking at people that hit
Speaker 2: and be like, oh, he just laid up there, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's the thing that people aren't talking about, is like, oh,
Speaker 2: like that guy's too chicken to try and hit that chip,
Speaker 2: because there are other guys in the field that do
Speaker 2: try and hit the chip, and then those are usually
Speaker 2: the guys that either walk away with an unbelievable three
Speaker 2: or a six or a five or a seven. You know,
Speaker 2: maybe it I think one guy. I saw one guy
Speaker 2: made a seven without going into a bunker.
Speaker 1: Look, if you ask people who watch golf, what are
Speaker 1: the shots from Riviera over the last five years that
Speaker 1: you remember, a lot of them are gonna come on
Speaker 1: whole ten, like Max Homa in the playoff against the
Speaker 1: Tree was a great shot. Max Holma's bunker shot and
Speaker 1: route to winning. If people remember that it was crazy,
Speaker 1: crazy shot, Like I remember Harold Varner topping his t
Speaker 1: shot when he was near the lead off of number ten,
Speaker 1: probably nervous.
Speaker 2: So we didn't We didn't get to see that one though.
Speaker 1: We just got that is true. That is true. But honestly,
Speaker 1: whole ten it resonates with people, and I think the
Speaker 1: reason is their attention heightens when they're watching somebody play
Speaker 1: whole ten because they know they know that the risk
Speaker 1: is there. And I also we haven't hit on this,
Speaker 1: but I think it comes at a cool place in
Speaker 1: the round two where you have your game, you've already
Speaker 1: played nine holes, you're warmed up, You're gonna get a
Speaker 1: tough challenge, and if you get frustrated by it, you
Speaker 1: have eight holes to recover. Like John Rahm got punched
Speaker 1: in the mouth, All right, John, Like can you handle
Speaker 1: this over the next eight holes? It kind of provides
Speaker 1: a cool like first nine holes, it's in the back
Speaker 1: of my mind, I still got to play that hole excitement,
Speaker 1: and then the rest of the tournament I think it's awesome.
Speaker 2: The way that back nine unfolds. You have scoring opportunity,
Speaker 2: scoring opportunity ten and eleven, but ten is a scoring
Speaker 2: opportunity fraught with danger. Then you go twelve, thirteen, fourteen,
Speaker 2: fifteen is a brute of a stretch. Like if you
Speaker 2: get through those even par you've played very well, and
Speaker 2: then you get sixteen seventeen. Scoring opportunities in eighteen which
Speaker 2: used to be a little bit tougher than it is now,
Speaker 2: but like a you know, you have to hit two
Speaker 2: good shots finisher.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it provides a good cadence of the round. I
Speaker 1: think Rivera has so much character and holes like ten
Speaker 1: are adding a lot of character to the golf course.
Speaker 2: One hole that people love, which I put this in
Speaker 2: my notes, and this will be my last point on this,
Speaker 2: is like when we talk drivable for short. For one
Speaker 2: hole that people have really glombed onto and love more
Speaker 2: than ever is a third at augustin National, and that
Speaker 2: is a short four. It's not a drivable four. It
Speaker 2: is do you lay it up on the ridge? Do
Speaker 2: you hit it down into the valley? If the winds
Speaker 2: down wind? You see guys hit it over the green.
Speaker 2: You know, it's really really hard to hit it onto
Speaker 2: the green. But what you see is you see a
Speaker 2: lot of different ways to play it and a lot
Speaker 2: of different shots from decisions made off the tee. If
Speaker 2: you lay back, you can all bring the bunker into play,
Speaker 2: and then if you hit into the bunker, you feel
Speaker 2: like a real idiot, you know, you know, if you
Speaker 2: hit it down, you see a really really tough shot
Speaker 2: up blind and everything. If you hit it back, it's
Speaker 2: a delicate chip over. So like, that's the thing that's
Speaker 2: super like to me. Seventeen at Scottsdale. I like. I
Speaker 2: like the hole. I think we Garrett and I did
Speaker 2: a podcast about how cool it is. It's a cool hole.
Speaker 2: But one of the things about it is every guy
Speaker 2: is doing the exact same thing on that hole, and
Speaker 2: the best holes are creating different ways to play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll be honest, I don't I like I like
Speaker 1: seventeen at Scottsdale. I think it's fine. But when you
Speaker 1: have guys who hit the ball as long as they
Speaker 1: do and you have a water hazard down the left side,
Speaker 1: players really aren't going to challenge the hazard that much,
Speaker 1: and it kind of homogenizes play a little bit. So
Speaker 1: like almost every player is kind of aiming at the
Speaker 1: front right edge of the green. I think a really
Speaker 1: a brilliant short for brings there's more dimensions in That's
Speaker 1: why I'm so optimistic about Whole six at LACC. Like,
Speaker 1: I think Whole six at LACC North is going to
Speaker 1: be I believe the best part best short for that
Speaker 1: we've seen in a while, maybe like in the last
Speaker 1: decade on TV. That hole you have actual options and
Speaker 1: Riviera doesn't present a lot of options on number ten,
Speaker 1: but I still think it's a cool hole because of
Speaker 1: the way it's touchy on and around the greens. Seventeen
Speaker 1: at Scottsdale doesn't present a ton of options. Six at
Speaker 1: LACC North will present options.
Speaker 2: I think, like what the six at LACC North really
Speaker 2: brings to the table and shows is like it's super simple, right,
Speaker 2: but a narrow hole. Yeah yeah, so it kind of
Speaker 2: like goes down to the right. It plays downhill under
Speaker 2: the right. That green is blind from the tee but
Speaker 2: it's just over this like kind of dune. Then you
Speaker 2: get down there and it's a super narrow green. It's
Speaker 2: got some heavy contour in it, but it's on a
Speaker 2: hard angle, so it kind of sits from right to
Speaker 2: left or from left to right, left, back left to
Speaker 2: front right on that angle, there's a bunker in front
Speaker 2: of it, and it's set up right on a hill.
Speaker 2: So you can either play the way the faraway works
Speaker 2: is super wide. You can play straight at the green
Speaker 2: and try and end up in the bunker short, which
Speaker 2: I think a lot of guys are going to do.
Speaker 2: Or you can lay up way left and if you
Speaker 2: go if you push it way left, and this will
Speaker 2: be interesting to see if people get there, you all
Speaker 2: of a sudden are hitting right up the axis of
Speaker 2: the green right. The way the angle of the green
Speaker 2: is is what makes ten at RIV and six it
Speaker 2: at LA so interesting. Is this narrow green on a
Speaker 2: really hard angle, and this is something that could be
Speaker 2: replicated all over the place. The other option in LA
Speaker 2: is hitting it over right, which I think will be
Speaker 2: probably the front bunker and over to the right will
Speaker 2: be the popular spots, because then from over right again
Speaker 2: you're chipping up the axis of the green. It's just
Speaker 2: hard to get over there, and you bring the risk
Speaker 2: of hitting it into native grass or you know, further
Speaker 2: right into trouble. What you know, do I explain that
Speaker 2: well enough.
Speaker 1: I think, so we will see what that front bunker
Speaker 1: plays like. But from my experience on that golf course,
Speaker 1: that front bunker may not be the most attractive, especially
Speaker 1: depending on the pin. And I think what's so exciting
Speaker 1: about that hole is that danger is on and around
Speaker 1: the greens at three at Augusta, like you're mentioning, we
Speaker 1: know if you're in the wrong spot to certain pins
Speaker 1: like you are in danger of making a big number.
Speaker 1: Scotti Scheffler chipped in last year on his way to winning,
Speaker 1: but that ball was almost well past the hole and
Speaker 1: now he's got a real problem. And like that, I
Speaker 1: think a fundamental ingredient of a good short Part four
Speaker 1: is that if you leave your ball on the wrong spot,
Speaker 1: you're looking at a big number. And sure Scottsdale can
Speaker 1: kind of do that, but it's doing it with water.
Speaker 1: It's not doing it in a way that is more
Speaker 1: compelling to me, which is like the fescue and the dunes,
Speaker 1: like a six at Lacc North or the way Augusta
Speaker 1: number three does it.
Speaker 2: I'd be interested if if you got rid of the
Speaker 2: water at Scottsdale and that was just a very steep
Speaker 2: shaved off area on the left. Would it be a
Speaker 2: better hole?
Speaker 1: I mean, I would probably prefer it, But like that's
Speaker 1: I always appreciate when there's a steep runoff area that
Speaker 1: presents you with a really challenging hip that you might
Speaker 1: get to try a couple times.
Speaker 2: M hm. I mean that back the back left pin
Speaker 2: is really awesome with Scottsdale because then all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: bailing out right is a bad decision. Right, It's not
Speaker 2: a bad decision with the water there, but it would
Speaker 2: become a very interesting decision with that pin if the
Speaker 2: left was fair away, like which way do you go?
Speaker 2: You know, all of sudden, guys would be trying to
Speaker 2: drive the green more right and it would be just
Speaker 2: hit it out right and chip up right. So you know,
Speaker 2: the water may what people will say is, oh, that
Speaker 2: will make it easier, and scoring average would go down
Speaker 2: with that with removing the water. But would variants go up?
Speaker 1: Variants probably would not go up because of what penalty
Speaker 1: hazards do, but like non penalty hazard related variants would
Speaker 1: go up. And that's I think a better test of golf.
Speaker 1: And you just have to realize when there's water on
Speaker 1: a course or on a hole, players really are going
Speaker 1: to move their target to take that out of play.
Speaker 1: And I think some of the personally, I think some
Speaker 1: of the worst short fors on the PGA Tour are
Speaker 1: holes like I think fifteen at Travelers is pretty boring,
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen Hollow.
Speaker 2: What about twelve at Sawgrass?
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, for sure, I think fourteen at Quail Hollow
Speaker 1: is really boring. Honestly, think about twelve at Sawgrass, fifteen
Speaker 1: at Travelers, and fourteen at Quail Hollow. They're all like
Speaker 1: three hundred yard holes with water on the left where
Speaker 1: every player is happy just being a little short right. Like,
Speaker 1: those aren't compelling par fours to me.
Speaker 2: M yeah, I mean I think the twelve twelve at
Speaker 2: Sawgrass is a perfect example of when you let players
Speaker 2: design a golf hole, you know, it becomes really easy
Speaker 2: to figure out what to do every single time, and
Speaker 2: then they do that. That's what they like, you know
Speaker 2: that that's why they like super tree lined courses that
Speaker 2: they like to say require shot making, is because those
Speaker 2: those narrow courses with that move certain ways tell them
Speaker 2: exactly what they need to do.
Speaker 1: I don't disagree with you. One other other hole that
Speaker 1: I had noted that I'm not sure if this is
Speaker 1: a hole you're super familiar with, but I think seventeen
Speaker 1: at TVC San Antonio is actually a pretty interesting short for.
Speaker 2: You love san Antonio.
Speaker 1: I actually do think that's a pretty good golf course
Speaker 1: for PJ Tour players. But that's an example of a
Speaker 1: hole where.
Speaker 2: Maybe we should elevate the Vo Texas South. Then is it?
Speaker 1: There are better hills for me to die on than that?
Speaker 1: But you can't. You can't just it's not super obvious
Speaker 1: what you should do off the tea there. You can't
Speaker 1: just hit a drive at front right edge of the
Speaker 1: green every time, especially based on the way the wind
Speaker 1: is blowing like that whole can play a lot of
Speaker 1: different ways, So that's something for people to watch. I
Speaker 1: think seventeen of Volariro is a good short.
Speaker 2: For all Right, real quick before we let you go here,
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on the SI World Golf rankings
Speaker 2: that came out today?
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, I'll have more to say about this, but
Speaker 1: you know, when every person who tries to do a
Speaker 1: ranking system eventually figures out that the key to building
Speaker 1: a ranking system is building in some mechanism that evaluates
Speaker 1: players across tours. And you leverage the overlap. Right, this
Speaker 1: player played on this tour and then on this tour. Therefore,
Speaker 1: here's how good he or she is, And you know,
Speaker 1: here's a strokes gained associated with that player or whatever.
Speaker 1: You have to have some baseline that's like an international
Speaker 1: currency for that player's skill level. What Sports Illustrated has
Speaker 1: chosen as that currency is your It's like funny to
Speaker 1: even say it out loud, your strokes per distance you played.
Speaker 1: So if you shoot seventy four on a seventy four
Speaker 1: hundred yard golf course, you divide that, and that is
Speaker 1: your skill that they use to determine some strengths, a
Speaker 1: component of the strengths of their fields. That's so beyond bad.
Speaker 1: That's fifth grade math, fifth grade science fair. The only
Speaker 1: reason they're doing it is because it allows live in
Speaker 1: isolated entity that doesn't have crossover in their events, that
Speaker 1: doesn't have players playing on a bunch of tours. It
Speaker 1: allows them a way of ranking those players. So sure,
Speaker 1: go play an eight thousand yard golf course with no
Speaker 1: water hazards, just flat, huge greens, whole course flat. You'll
Speaker 1: show up pretty well in a skill rating like that.
Speaker 1: It's a really smart way to rank golfers good good
Speaker 1: works Sports Illustrated.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a very clear attempt to get live players
Speaker 2: into world ranking. And one of my favorite aspects of
Speaker 2: it was like one of the players that took the
Speaker 2: veiggest tumbles was Kevin Nah and he was a live
Speaker 2: player that doesn't hit it very far. He's like, it's
Speaker 2: just like it's so comical. It's uh, it was a
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the best metric. If like, sure,
Speaker 2: that's a great metric for the long hitting live guys
Speaker 2: like Bryson. You know, that's a great way for Bryson.
Speaker 2: But then like they have some shorter guys like West,
Speaker 2: He's not gonna show up well on there, Ian Poulter's
Speaker 2: not gonna show up well on that, or Kevin Not.
Speaker 2: Like they've got these other guys that you know, Graham McDowell, Like,
Speaker 2: none of those guys are gonna rate well on that
Speaker 2: on that ranking system.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's not a good ranking system for anyone.
Speaker 1: That is one of, if you know an ounce about golf,
Speaker 1: one of the worst possible ways that you can try
Speaker 1: to evaluate skill and standardize it. But hey, when you
Speaker 1: have no other way of doing it because you're there's
Speaker 1: no overlap your tour and other tours. That's what you
Speaker 1: have to resort to. You have to resort to something
Speaker 1: like that that says, hey, let's just base it off
Speaker 1: of the scorecard length really stupid.
Speaker 2: All right, well we'll go runing.
Speaker 1: On a positive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're in in here. Great to have you on.
Speaker 2: We'll have you on in a couple of weeks probably,
Speaker 2: I don't know. At some point. We got two more
Speaker 2: designated events coming up soon and we're getting, you know,
Speaker 2: the lead up. We're right in Master season now. This
Speaker 2: is the one nice thing about going from the West Coast,
Speaker 2: Like when you leave the West Coast, is it signals
Speaker 2: like this is Master's lead up and we are in
Speaker 2: it obviously coming up here in a little bit.
Speaker 1: More than a month, forty three days or something like that.
Speaker 2: All right, thanks Joseph, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: It's fun.
Speaker 2: All right. That does it for this episode of the
Speaker 2: Friday Podcast. We will be back early next week. I
Speaker 2: have an interview with Javier Campos, the superintendent at Cal
Speaker 2: Club in San Francisco, that will be up on Tuesday morning.
Speaker 2: It'll be a good chat. I'm doing it tomorrow, so
Speaker 2: I haven't. I can't tell you exactly what's in the chat,
Speaker 2: but it'll be there. This episode was produced and edited
Speaker 2: by Matt Rusch's Thank you Matt. As a quick reminder,
Speaker 2: we have a bunch of photography on the website and
Speaker 2: the big news here is that we are now shipping internationally,
Speaker 2: so posters and prints those now can be shipped internationally.
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Speaker 2: one abandoned dunes that I am awaiting a frame to
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