1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,159 Speaker 1: Quality diners with Joseph Scott More. There are certain individuals 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: throughout history who, for whatever reason, have been linked to 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: specific historic events. One such person is a gentleman that 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: I have mentioned previously on body Backs who was the 5 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: chief medical examiner for Dallas. His name was doctor Earl Rose, 6 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: and for his time, he was highly educated, highly trained, 7 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:50,080 Speaker 1: and was one of the leading experts in the country 8 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: on death investigation. It just so happens that his life 9 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:04,760 Speaker 1: intersected with three of the principal people involved in the 10 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: JFK assassination, actually four, and three of the four had 11 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: something in common. They all died as a result of gunshot. 12 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: Ones today on body Bags, in a continuing effort to 13 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:32,319 Speaker 1: offer our friends out there a bit of forensic education, 14 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: if you will, we're going to be talking about gunfire 15 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: and gunfire related deaths because let's face that, it's part 16 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: of the fabric of who we are in America. It 17 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: happens every single day. There are many cases out there 18 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: that are quite high profile, but there are others that 19 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: go without a whisper. But the one thing they have 20 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: in common is the trauma they are subjected to at 21 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: the hands of someone that has fired a weapon into 22 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: their body. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body backs. 23 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:20,079 Speaker 1: It's really hard to know, looking back through time, who 24 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:27,079 Speaker 1: the first victim of a gunshot wound was. And I'm 25 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: not even talking about lethal. We know that the Chinese 26 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: invented gunpowder, and we know that as early as the 27 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 1: twelve hundreds they had a firearm. This is something that 28 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: they would load. It's essentially a tube packed with gunpowder. 29 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: They would spark this thing off and they just put 30 00:02:56,000 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 1: all manner of trapnel down the barrel, which he turns 31 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:05,639 Speaker 1: this into a gigantic shotgun, if you will, not very aerodynamic, 32 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: but for its time, I'm sure that it was quite 33 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 1: frightful for those that were on the business end of 34 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: the weapon. If you will, to have these items flying 35 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: through the air at you and slamming into your body. 36 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: Things that in the past maybe you wore armor for, 37 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: like to defeat a sword or a spear blow, were 38 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: insufficient to the task. And suddenly a whole new world 39 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: opened up in warfare and then eventually trickles down to 40 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: the civilian world. But we do know that there was 41 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: one gentleman that is the first recorded assassination victim by 42 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: someone that had fired a weapon. And this gent's name 43 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: and he's rather fashma. I'm looking at the image of 44 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: him right now. Was a guy named James Stewart, first 45 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: Earl of Moray, and back in I don't know, about 46 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: fifteen seventy he was summoned up north to a castle 47 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:19,039 Speaker 1: in Scotland and there was another gentleman who was displeased 48 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: with Moray, or Stewart rather, and from an open window 49 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: fired a matchlock weapon at him matchlock carbine as it's 50 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 1: referred to as, and struck him down and killed him. 51 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 1: This guy's name was James Hamilton. Now, over a period 52 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: of tom I think much has been forgotten about that case. 53 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: But every single day, Dave in the news, we hear 54 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: about people that die as a result of gunfire. It's 55 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: part and parcel of who we are in America. A 56 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: reality whether regardless of how you think about or feel 57 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: feel about weapons farms specifically, it's the reality that we 58 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: have to deal with in forensics and all the remains 59 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,040 Speaker 1: of individuals who have in fact been shot dead. 60 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 2: When I look at gunshow, my fear is when people 61 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: don't respect them properly, and when because you see the 62 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:32,839 Speaker 2: damage that can be done when you see it up 63 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: close and personally, it's shocking. I look back at our history, 64 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: you know, and I think about you mentioned JFK, and 65 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,719 Speaker 2: I think about the weapon used with that and all 66 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 2: of the experts that came into play about that shooting 67 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 2: of JFK and what they had to say about that 68 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: man liquor Carcano. I don't know that's how you pronounced it. 69 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 2: I've heard it some different ways. But you've got a 70 00:05:57,160 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 2: cheap twelve dollars mail order rife that supposedly took down 71 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 2: the leader of the Free world from the third floor 72 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 2: of the school at Texas school book depository, from a 73 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: shot that couldn't be made by experts, and he wasn't 74 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 2: even a you know, he was not a good shot. 75 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 2: And I think about those types of things, and I 76 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:22,799 Speaker 2: think about how you, as an expert, have to figure out, 77 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: I mean, where did it come from, how did it happen? 78 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: Is it even possible that this gun fired that projectile 79 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: and hit this victim? You have to figure that out 80 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,919 Speaker 2: based on what's left. And I have trouble figuring that 81 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 2: out when I see the whole thing on film. 82 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do, and think about it is what's very 83 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 1: interesting about the assassination of Kennedy is that Kennedy's gunshot 84 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: ones that he sustained were a typical in this sense. 85 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 1: Most of the time in America, we don't have, like 86 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: on a day to day basis, farms related deaths that 87 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: come about as a result of a rifled weapon being fired, 88 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: or let me rephrase that, a long arm being fired. 89 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: And when I say that, like a shoulder fired weapon. 90 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: Pistols are rifled, but you know the term rifle. When 91 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: people hear the term rifle, they think a long arm 92 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: or shoulder fired arm, and those are the exception and 93 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: not the norm. The line share of people that meet 94 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: their end in America as a result of gunplay does 95 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: a result of handgun. 96 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 2: And isn't it odd that every time we have a 97 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: shooting of any type, the two things they want to 98 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: ban assault rifles that aren't used in the crime and 99 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 2: other military style weapons that oftentimes are not used in 100 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 2: the crime. It's usually a handgun. And yet you never 101 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: get a battle over handguns. That's never because it just 102 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 2: doesn't make any kind of political sense. But that's a 103 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: different discussion for a different let me ask you this show. Yeah, 104 00:08:05,520 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 2: but if I if somebody were to be creating hell 105 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: on Earth with a firearm taking out the leader of 106 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: the free world, would it better be Would it be 107 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 2: better to use a rifle that is made to shoot 108 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: if you're shooting from a long distance, a hunting type 109 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: rifle or military type rifle. 110 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing. The genesis for most civilian hunting weapons, 111 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: the genesis is military military application. That's where as a 112 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: matter of fact, for years in my grandfather he fired. 113 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: He had a thirty out six rifle. He had a 114 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:48,080 Speaker 1: thirty thirty rifle, and they were lever action rifles, you know, 115 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: like old cowboy, but you know, the thirty out six. Yeah, 116 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: exactly like the rifleman from the sixties. Oh yeah, Chuck 117 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: Conners man. But baseball. Yeah. And I think you played 118 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:04,160 Speaker 1: basketball too, didn't he for the sixers? I think, yeah, yeah, 119 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: bless his heart. You know, with rifles in particular, our 120 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: troops came back from World War One, and the cartridge 121 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: that those soldiers and marines were familiar with when they 122 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: got back home was referred to as the thirty out six, 123 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: and thirty out six became the gold Center. Still by 124 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 1: some measure today it is for hunting, you know, kind 125 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,719 Speaker 1: of mid sized game like individuals that can go out 126 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: and hunt deer and maybe wild hog or you know 127 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:42,319 Speaker 1: things like this. Well, that cartridge itself had its origin 128 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: with a nineteen oh three rifle. It's a bolt action 129 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: rifle that we had that all of our troops were issued. 130 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: Now you talk about if someone is plotting an assassination, 131 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: first off, there are examples of people that have walked 132 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: up on the individuals and shot them, you know, at 133 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: very close range. To presidents in particular, I can think 134 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: of well, actually three if you count Lincoln, but Garfield 135 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: who died and he was shot at a train station. 136 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: You had Teddy Roosevelt who was shot with a pistol 137 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: and the only thing that saved his life was he 138 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: had a I think it was a silver cigar case 139 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 1: that was in his pocket and it deflected the round. 140 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: He still caught shrapnel and still kept Hey. That's why 141 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt's one of my favorite presidents. He kept on 142 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: giving the speech. Yeah that I mean, you know, I mean, 143 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: you take whoever you want. I'm going with Teddy Roosevelt 144 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: every time. I love Teddy. And and then of course 145 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: you have you have Lincoln, who was famously assassinated, you know, 146 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: with with a pistol an old darringer. So if but 147 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,959 Speaker 1: if you're looking for precision, and that's what a long 148 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: arm gives individuals, that's generally where your mind is going 149 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: to drift to. You know, somebody in a sniper's nest. 150 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: You know, our troopers that are deployed all around the world, 151 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: we have people that are snipers. In fact, it's actually 152 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: a term that comes from from Scotland sniper. Those were 153 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: people that were game wardens and hunters out there and 154 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: they invented like the gilly suit, you know, where they're 155 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: wearing all the rags all over their body and they 156 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: can low crawl and approach. Well, we adopted that in 157 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: the military, and the military uses it for military applications. 158 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: But when you're wanting to reach out a great distance, 159 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: you know, you want to use a long arm as 160 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: it choose to. 161 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 2: You're talking about the pistols there, and I didn't realize, 162 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,599 Speaker 2: I A, I had forgot about Teddy Roosevelt. 163 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, most people do. 164 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, But when I was thinking about assassination, you know, 165 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 2: we're talking about JFK. I was thinking about how Lincoln McKinley. 166 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: McKinley, I forgot him. 167 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 2: And Garfield and Garfield and Bobby Kennedy. 168 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,080 Speaker 1: And Bobby Kennedy, we're all shot with handguns. 169 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Now all right, is it a different term 170 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: pistol and handgun or. 171 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 1: No, No, it's not. It's they're essentially interchangeable. 172 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 2: But a pistol isn't necessarily a revolver, right, No, it's not. 173 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: So you have let's break this down kind of logically 174 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: so everybody can follow. So weapons generally fall into two categories. 175 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: So firearms, that is in the modern sense. So we're 176 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: going to have long arms, which are rifled weapons that 177 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: fire a projectile that spins down the barrel because the 178 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: grooves in the barrel. Okay, it's kind of like and 179 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: I'll tell you why. And that's actually called rifling. Now 180 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: i'll tell you why it was developed. It was developed 181 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: around about the same time as the Civil War occurred 182 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: in America, and before that we were firing smooth bore muskets. 183 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 1: And that means that you've got this huge chunk of 184 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: lead that's traveling down a smooth boar barrel and it's 185 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: kind of bouncing along as it goes through the barrel, 186 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: and it's not making the most out of the energy 187 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: that's provided by the explosion in the rear, so its 188 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: ability to travel a great distance and bring power on 189 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: target drops precipitously. But if you escalate up to say, 190 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:44,280 Speaker 1: for instance, the rifled round of you know, like that 191 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: fired the mini ball, You've got a fifty eight caliber round, 192 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: huge chunk of metal going down range in one of 193 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: these in one of these civil war weapons. That thing's 194 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 1: rifle and it's spinning. So if you think about somebody 195 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: that has taken a football, for instance, you ever see 196 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: anybody and I've done it, You've probably done it. Throw 197 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: football and it comes out of your hand as a 198 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: wounded duck. You've ever seen that, and it kind of 199 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 1: flops through the air. You don't get a tight spiral 200 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: on it. It's the same principle with a bullet. If 201 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: you take a football and you can throw a tight spiral, 202 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: it preserves energy and it gives you more distance any 203 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,480 Speaker 1: more accurate with it. Same thing. So if you compare 204 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: a wounded duck football throw with a musket, okay, smooth bore, 205 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: and then you take a rifled weapon with a tight spiral, 206 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 1: that's kind of a simplistic way of looking at it. 207 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: And so we have long arms. And also following in 208 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: the category of long arms, many times there are shotguns. And 209 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: so shotguns are smooth bore, okay, but they're meant for close, 210 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: close engagements, but further away than say a pistol would 211 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: be usedful and they bring they put a lot of 212 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: power and a lot of energy on target. So that's 213 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: you know, you've got those two groups of long arms. 214 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:06,400 Speaker 1: So the other group of weapons that we commonly encounter, 215 00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: particularly in investigations out on the streets, are handguns, and 216 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: they break out in a modern sense. And again I'm 217 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: qualifying these things in the modern sense. I'm not talking 218 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: about like the weapon that President Lincoln was assassinated with, 219 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: which was a muzzle loading muzzle loading derringer that you 220 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 1: had to use a ramrod to press the you know, 221 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 1: to get the projectile down the barrel that had to 222 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: be primed and then it was fired. I'm talking about 223 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: now multi shot weapons that we encounter on the streets 224 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: in investigations, and with handguns, those are generally going to 225 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: fall into two categories. So you're going to have revolvers, 226 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,520 Speaker 1: which old guys call them wheel guns as well, and 227 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: you've seen you've seen, you know, revolvers in all manner 228 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: of television shows over the years, old Westerns, you know, 229 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: even detective programs from back in as late as the eighties, 230 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: because it's what cops carried. Cops had classically, they had 231 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: the six inch Smith and Western thirty eight special revolver 232 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: with ann iron sight and so the cylinder that the 233 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: bullets and most of the time most revolvers hold six rounds. 234 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll find them a whole five, and you have 235 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: others that will hold more, but those are kind of outlayers. 236 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: The as the hammer is actuated and pulled back, you'll 237 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: see the cylinder kind of spin and it puts it 238 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: on a fresh round and you've only got six, okay, 239 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: six times to fire this thing, and then you have 240 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: to reload. It's kind of cumbersome. And that's the way, 241 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: you know, we kind of saw this change happened back 242 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: in the eighties with service weapons that police acers were carrying, 243 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: and they went from revolvers, which they had carried for 244 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: years and years, to semi automatic handguns. Top of the 245 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: list probably to begin with some of the ones you saw. 246 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: There were two groups that you saw being employed by 247 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies. To begin with, those were glocks, which 248 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: everybody's heard of now it's an Austrian made weapon. It's 249 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: got a polymer frame. And then there were Barrettas, which 250 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: is an Italian weapon. And the reason that Barretta was 251 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: very popular was because it's what our military troops carried 252 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: in all branches, because they had carried the forty five 253 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: for years and years, and forty five ACP has a 254 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:51,000 Speaker 1: storied history. But again it could only hold up to 255 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: seven rounds, not sufficient to the task. Weapons now the 256 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: semi automatic weapon that police officers carry. If you're watching 257 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: these videos you know that are that are on YouTube 258 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,720 Speaker 1: and these sorts of things, and you're watching them, uh, 259 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,640 Speaker 1: these live shooting instances, you'll see the cop fire multiple 260 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 1: times and it seems like it's never going to end. 261 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: And that's because the magazines which hold these rounds are 262 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: you know, in the double digits, these rounds and so 263 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: and then they've got multiple magazines on their belts. So 264 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: when you see a cop wearing wearing their utility gear, 265 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,400 Speaker 1: you'll see, you know, magazine holders and you'll see them. 266 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: And that's one of the skills you have to develop. 267 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: You have to be able to drop drop a magazine, 268 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: reload and get back into the fight. And that's one 269 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,679 Speaker 1: of the things that's taught in military as well. So 270 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 1: we've got long arms, rifles and shotguns. Then we've got handguns, 271 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: which are generally gonna be revolvers. They're still revolvers that 272 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: people carry. I know people that prefer for revolvers over 273 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: semi automatics. And then you've got the semi automatics, your glocks, 274 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: Bretta sixth hour, which I think is what the military 275 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 1: has gone to now hk's and some of these can 276 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: cost into the thousands and thousands of dollars, and they 277 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: come in a variety of calibers as well. You know, Dave, 278 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: I've made mention of the first autopsy I ever participated in, 279 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: which was a bludgeoning death. God had been beaten to 280 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: death with a baseball bat at the hand of his 281 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: brother something. 282 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a horrible shot, but I'm excellent with the 283 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: Louisville slugger. 284 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: And there you go. 285 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 2: Tasted it all at my doors and I've all it 286 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,880 Speaker 2: out the barrel and put my area. If you come 287 00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 2: into my house, you're not You're not walking out just 288 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 2: you know. 289 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: When I get to our blunt force blunt blunt force 290 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: drama lecture, I'm going to rely heavily upon you with 291 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: that because we will talk about baseball paths. Uh. The 292 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,720 Speaker 1: first homicide or the first death I was ever involved 293 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: in as an autopsy technician was actually a bludgeoning. A 294 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: god had been beaten to death by baseball with a 295 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: baseball bat. The first scene that ever went on where 296 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: I was the primary investigator was actually a gunshot wound. 297 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: And that's you know, I know people might think, well, 298 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: that's not unusual, Morgan. Well yet it is. Because you 299 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: work for the corner. You handle all manners of death, 300 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,720 Speaker 1: and generally firearms related deaths are the least of what 301 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: you handle. You handle the fewest of those. 302 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 2: You told me that, Joe watching the news and politics, Yeah, 303 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 2: everybody in America had a gun loaded and cocked and 304 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 2: ready to take something. 305 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: And that everybody's dying on a gun. Yeah, I know, 306 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: Well the news. 307 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,439 Speaker 2: That's what we did. We got a cup of coffee, 308 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 2: shot somebody. 309 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: And yeah, most our will get you fished in by that. 310 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 1: The line's share of deaths that you work as an investigator, 311 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,040 Speaker 1: even going out on the field. In my field, I'm 312 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 1: not talking about it as a homicide detective. I'm talking 313 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: as medical legal death investigator. Are going to be naturals, 314 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: but it just so happened. The first one, the first 315 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,879 Speaker 1: case that ever worked by myself in the field, was 316 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound and it was with kind of an 317 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: interesting weapon. It was a twenty two magnum revolver, which 318 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: is actually a very powerful You think of a twenty two, 319 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,360 Speaker 1: which is that's an imperial measurement, and we can talk 320 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 1: about calibers. Twenty two is essentially zero point two inches 321 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: in circumference around the actual projectile, and that's where you 322 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: get that number. But that's an imperial measurement which was 323 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: given to us by the British and we adopted that. 324 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: So anytime you hear caliber, that's what we're talking about. 325 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: That's an imperial measurement. But other so called measurements for 326 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 1: weapons are done metric. That's why you hear and you 327 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: hear it in a lot of songs that are out 328 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: there that popularly talking about a nine millimeter nine millimeter glock, 329 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, and so nine millimeter is probably the most 330 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 1: popular round, but that measurement is done in millimeters, so 331 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: and you've got ten milimeter pistols or handguns, but you know, 332 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:35,640 Speaker 1: you have rifle rounds that one of the most popular 333 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,800 Speaker 1: to the most popular for hunting are six millimeter and 334 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: seven millimeter. So and it's hard. There's no like, there's 335 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: no debt one match for these. When you compare the 336 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,480 Speaker 1: imperial system, which is rooted in Great Britain, to the 337 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,360 Speaker 1: metric system or you know, the millimeter system, if you will, 338 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,480 Speaker 1: for measuring measuring rounds even you know, look, even in 339 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 1: the mill terry, you have to learn the metric measurement 340 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 1: for firearms. So you know, like the standard round for 341 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: years and years in the military has been a five 342 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: point five to six millimeters round. That's what goes into 343 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 1: the rifle. And it's roughly about the size believe it 344 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: or not, Dave, The diameter of the circumference of the 345 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: actual round itself is about roughly the size of a 346 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: twenty two round. It's not that big. It's just the 347 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: amount of powder or propellant that's placed into that particular round, 348 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: and then the weight of the bullet is it's larger. 349 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: The projectile is actually larger than say even a twenty 350 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: two long rifle, and so the amount of powder that's 351 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,119 Speaker 1: put behind it, the propellant. When that round hits something, 352 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,199 Speaker 1: it can rip it apart. And most of those rounds 353 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: are what are called flangible frangible fragmenting rounds, so when 354 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,320 Speaker 1: they hit a target, they kind of come apart. And 355 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: so you've got these tiny, little particulate rounds that are 356 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,960 Speaker 1: going into a body or bits of shrapnel and they're 357 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,200 Speaker 1: ripping things to shreds in there as well. So there's 358 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: a huge variety and it takes it takes you a 359 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: while to get used to this environment, you know, to 360 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,720 Speaker 1: try to be able to spink to lingo because it's 361 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:21,120 Speaker 1: it's certainly a it's certainly a language all and of itself. 362 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 2: Okay, but when you're actually looking at a body on scene, yeah, 363 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 2: are you able are you able to understand what weapon 364 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: or what type of weapon was used before you get 365 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: them back? I mean, can you look at a body 366 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,239 Speaker 2: and go, yeah, that's a twenty two? I mean do 367 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 2: you can you do that? Or do you what happens 368 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 2: on scene when you're dealing with somebody who is a 369 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 2: victim of a being shot. 370 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,640 Speaker 1: That's an excellent question because you you will see portrayed 371 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: in movies. And I've even been around colleagues that will 372 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: say that looks like a twenty two or that looks 373 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: like a nine, and I would I'll learned early on 374 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,159 Speaker 1: in my career not to say that, because I was 375 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 1: proven wrong so many times once we got back to 376 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:09,399 Speaker 1: the Morgue. And interestingly enough, Dave when I write, or 377 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,199 Speaker 1: wrote when I was writing, and I still teach my 378 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: students this at Jack State. When you write a report, okay, 379 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: I I never say in one of my reports involving gunplay, 380 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: I never say that the subject has a gunshot wound 381 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: to the anterior chest, or to the posterior chest, or 382 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: to the hit. I'll say that the individual has a 383 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: circular or irregular shaped defect. Because if I call that, 384 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: if I call that defect or that hole in the 385 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: body a gunshot wound in the field, and then that 386 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: body has to make it back to the morgue. Well, 387 00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: when the forends of pathologist gets that the body in 388 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: a in perfect conditions for examination with the surgical lights 389 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: and everything, first off, they might look at that and say, yeah, 390 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: that's that's not a gunshot wound. That person was pierced 391 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: by something here that might resemble a gunshot wound, or 392 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:21,719 Speaker 1: this is the tail end of a laceration. It's not 393 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: a gunshot wound. But yet I've gone ahead and put 394 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: it in an official report. And then if the pathologist 395 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: report comes out, those two things are conflicting. When they're subpoena, 396 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: you know, and they can put you on the stand 397 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: and say, well, look, you know, you're a pathologist here, 398 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: made a statement that this is a gunshot wound. But 399 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,919 Speaker 1: yet you're saying or that you said that it's a 400 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,160 Speaker 1: gunshot wound, but they're saying that it's something other than that. 401 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: Who should we believe? And again, that's that kernel, that 402 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: seed that's planted for reasonable doubts. So you have to 403 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: be real careful with your. 404 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 2: Verbiage, evening your thinking about if this goes to trial, 405 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: if I'm called. That's in the back of your head 406 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 2: every step of the way. 407 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. And that's why it's so important that 408 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 1: you remain very, very clinical. You know, when you're at 409 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: a scene. First off, you're you're at a great disadvantage 410 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: day in the field. And I've mentioned this before. I'm 411 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,640 Speaker 1: not whining about it. I'm just saying you don't have 412 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: like the same advantages you do, and the more to 413 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,639 Speaker 1: examine a body because the lighting is insufficient. You know, 414 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: you try to go out in the middle of the woods, 415 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, on a moonless night, 416 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: overcast night. You can't see your hand in front of 417 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,240 Speaker 1: your face, but yet you're you are going to attempt 418 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: to give a detailed description of something that has got 419 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 1: little tears in it that measure maybe one centimeter. Because 420 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,080 Speaker 1: of the orientation of the around when it goes through 421 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: the body, You're incapable of doing that in that environment. 422 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 1: So that's why I spoke very broadly, you know, when 423 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: I would write, and I would recommend to anybody that's 424 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: going into forensics that you speak very broadly about field 425 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: with feeling reports, particularly when it comes to injuries, because 426 00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: you don't know. One of the most embarrassing things that 427 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 1: can happen is to have some lawyer get you hip 428 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: on stand and the first you know, they'll talk to 429 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: you in general terms, what your background and what's your 430 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: experience and all this, and they might say, hey, look, 431 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 1: I was looking here at your CV you know, your resume, 432 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,680 Speaker 1: and I see that you graduated with your master's degree 433 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: in forensic science. But where'd you go to medical school. 434 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: I didn't go to medical school. But yet you've made 435 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: an assessment at the scene that this is a gunshot Once. 436 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: Certainly you have to have medical training in order to 437 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: be that. Are you a board certified forensic pathologist? No, sir, 438 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm not so, even though I might be the best 439 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: investigator in the world. All the while he's asking me 440 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: these questions that I have to respond negatively to. Who's listening, Well, 441 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: the jury's listening. So that's why with gunshot wounds in particular, 442 00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: I'm a bit cagy about it because I've gotten burned. 443 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: I've had friends that have really gotten burned, and I 444 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: learned from forensic pathologists, you know they I had one 445 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: old friends of pathologist that told me, let me bear 446 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: the burden of that. You just indicate to me where 447 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,320 Speaker 1: you see defects in the body. It's like people will 448 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: I'm amazed at when I go out on scenes, I'll 449 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: have people will say, well, this is an entrance and 450 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: this is an exit wound. Well, how do you know that? 451 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: How do you know that that's an entrance? Oh, because 452 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: entrance is always smaller than the exit. Prove it Joe. Well, 453 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: i've seen cases before. Well, I've seen a lot of 454 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: cases too, and I've seen cases particularly like individuals that 455 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: are struck from behind in the shoulder blade, that flat bone, 456 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 1: and it's a very nasty injury, and it might give 457 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: you the appearance that it's an exit, where it's actually 458 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 1: an entrance. People shot in the spiny process in their 459 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: next many times that kind of blows out and it 460 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: gives the impression of an exit very well might be 461 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: an entrance. And so you can't make that determination in 462 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: the field. 463 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: You're right back, right back the middle of JFK. Now, 464 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 2: because in the assassination of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, there was 465 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 2: always a battle over the neck wound, yes, you know, 466 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 2: and they ended up using the neck wound to actually 467 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 2: put a track. 468 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: Started an airway. Yeah, and that's hey, look, that's commonly done, right. 469 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: It's it's not like that's abnormal. 470 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 2: Right, not like they messed it up or anything. 471 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no no. And you would still see 472 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 1: some evidence, like, for instance, when the president was shot, 473 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 1: and this goes into an assessment of range of fire, 474 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,479 Speaker 1: which is very important in what we do. When the 475 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: president was shot, regardless of who fired the weapon and 476 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,560 Speaker 1: from where it was coming from when you examined his body, 477 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: and if it had actually been examined by Earl Rose 478 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: instead of those buffoons on the East coast. 479 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 2: That went and creating to go back and listen to 480 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 2: our body back the assassination of JFK. 481 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: Please do it was the biggest clown show and face 482 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: the planet. And you know, Earl Rose almost went to 483 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: jail over that because he Doctor Rose was in the 484 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,479 Speaker 1: in the hallway at Parkland and he was fighting or 485 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: he was protesting to Secret Service and he, according to him, 486 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,720 Speaker 1: one of the agents actually put their hand on their 487 00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: weapon and saying said, the presence body is leaving here. 488 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: And he was like, I'm I'm the legal authority here. 489 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,680 Speaker 1: You know this is this is a homicide in Dallas County. 490 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: And we talked about that extensively. But you know, doctor 491 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: Rose was actually involved in the autopsies of Tippett who 492 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: was allegedly shutting by Oswald, and he did Oswald's autopsy 493 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: as well. Interestingly enough, I believe if I'm not mistaken, 494 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, Dave, I think he actually did Jack Ruby's autopsy. 495 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: What the same guy. 496 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, he died, He died in the City Jail of 497 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 1: cancer and I think he actually did that autopsy as well, 498 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: and that several years later. But you know, you think 499 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: about the intersection. If only if only doctor Rose had 500 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: been had been allowed to assess President's injuries, you know, 501 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: because he would have probably, first off, he would have 502 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: arrived at a different conclusion because that body would have 503 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: been secured in his morgue and not be flown a 504 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: thousand miles or highever the how far it is to Bethesda, 505 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, from from love Field, and he could have 506 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: done that assessment appropriately incorrectly. But you know, with President 507 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: Kennedy shooting, that's what we would refer to as around 508 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: fired from a distance, and when you're trying to assess 509 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: the range of fire, you're in to another complete level 510 00:32:51,640 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: as far as forensic examinations go. Dave, I tell you 511 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: JFK has always been a head scratcher. It from what 512 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 1: I can tell at this point, it will always be 513 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: a head scratcher. But you know what, we we had 514 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: the advantage of always reflecting back to science, and that's 515 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: what keeps us grounded. 516 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: When you did the show, and I was so thankful 517 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 2: you did it because there are so many things that 518 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 2: the average shoe doesn't know. All we hear are the theories. 519 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 2: Ohen you get down of the forensics of what actually happened, 520 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,280 Speaker 2: and you're saying, here's all the things they did to 521 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 2: make sure we would never know the truth. That's a 522 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: real problem. But you were just talking about range of fire, 523 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,280 Speaker 2: and I'm concerned and curious about how how can you 524 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: determine I mean, you've got a bullet being fired from 525 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: a weapon. Yeah, how can you determine range of fire? 526 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess I understand stiffling, so I could 527 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 2: understand a contact wound if you're you know, touching my again, 528 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to get But beyond that, how can you 529 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 2: really tell how far it was? 530 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: Well, with the president, some people will use the term 531 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: long range shot, and yeah, it is a long range shot, 532 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: but scientifically that means nothing. So what does that mean? Well, 533 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: it's actually an indeterminate range if you want to look 534 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: at it from a purely clinical sense, because there's no 535 00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: way like once you get out beyond Some people will 536 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,240 Speaker 1: debate you about this. Some people say it's eighteen inches. 537 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: I hear people say all the way after thirty six inches. 538 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,719 Speaker 1: Once you get beyond that our marker right there, there's 539 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 1: no President Kennedy could have been shot from thirty Let's 540 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,799 Speaker 1: just say we'll be generous from thirty six inches out 541 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: to infinity and there wouldn't be any evidence on the body. Okay, 542 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 1: all you're going to have is a defect. Now, the 543 00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: one thing that you see with indeterminate range, if you're 544 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: talking about a rifled round that's passing. I encourage anybody 545 00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:09,720 Speaker 1: that hasn't seen the quote unquote magic bullet. That bullet 546 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,960 Speaker 1: has been fired. It's got rifling on it, and you 547 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: can actually see it running down the long axis. It's 548 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,840 Speaker 1: just that it's so intact, you know. But that's a story. 549 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: That's a story I've already told. Actually, But when you 550 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 1: see the wound that is generated traditionally, because you know, 551 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: President Kennedy's body got so kind of boogered up and 552 00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: orientation was all off and everything else. But if you 553 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 1: look at an indetermined range projectile or projectile that has 554 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: been fired from an indeterminate range, the only thing you're 555 00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: going to see is what's referred to as a friction ring. 556 00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: And what that means is going back to my example 557 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: of tight spiral on a football. It's spinning. Okay, well, 558 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: think about a spinning This is painful to think about, 559 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: all right, just this in and of itself, and you 560 00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't notice it when you're being shot. But as that 561 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: bullet is spinning, and it is spinning like nobody's business, 562 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 1: all right, when it strikes. When it strikes the skin, 563 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 1: it actually Dave twists the skin like this. Okay, So 564 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: you get this abrasion ring around a circular defect, and 565 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: you'll see the little abraided area where it kind of twist. 566 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: I've actually, I could have sworn before I've actually seen 567 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 1: on the hour marker the outer margins of one of 568 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: these things, little kind of hash marks that look like 569 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: indication of rifling, you know, and they're kind of at 570 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: a they're kind of fan shaped. Doctor told me, I 571 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,359 Speaker 1: was out of my mind. I wasn't really seeing that, 572 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 1: so I was like, oh, okay, well whatever. But anyway, 573 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: it twists, It twists the skin, and that friction that's 574 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 1: created on the skin just for that moment, you know, 575 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: it it upbraids that area, it tears the skin, It 576 00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: in salts the skin. But beyond that, you're not going 577 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: to have any powder deposition there's not going to be 578 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: any debris blown out of the barrel because none of 579 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 1: that crap is aerodynamics. So let's just say you're in 580 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: that multi storied structure of the Texas school Book Suppository 581 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: Depository that you're standing. You're up there, and you're in 582 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: a sniper's nest, and you're firing this round. Well, by 583 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: the time that round reaches the end of the muzzle, okay, 584 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:37,280 Speaker 1: which is in a twinkling of an eye, that round 585 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,000 Speaker 1: is going down range and it's leaving a cloud behind it. 586 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: And you can see this in high speed camera slow 587 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,919 Speaker 1: motion on weapons. I encourage everybody to go look these 588 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:52,399 Speaker 1: up on the inner zones out there. You see this 589 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:54,920 Speaker 1: kind of cloud that rises up out of the barrel, 590 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: and the projectile actually emerges from that. Well, just take 591 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: a look in that slow and they're everywhere. When you 592 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 1: see them, that slow motion cloud that's coming out doesn't 593 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 1: go very far. As a matter of fact, really quickly 594 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: you can see it begin to descend to the Earth. 595 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: None of that stuff is has the aerodynamic qualities that 596 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,479 Speaker 1: a spinning lead core projectile has as it's going down 597 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: range and it can stay on target for a protracted time. 598 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: So it's not carrying any of that debris with it. 599 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: So when you have an indetermined range, you know that 600 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: if you're in court, you know, the attorney might say, well, gee, whiz, 601 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: how far away was this round or was the shooter? 602 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,240 Speaker 1: You know, when I don't know, I have no idea. 603 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: So you're telling me with all your knowledge. Yeah, I'm 604 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 1: telling you, based upon a lot of scientific study over 605 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: the years, that it's impossible to tell because there's there's 606 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: no deposition. Now when you get into what we would 607 00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,200 Speaker 1: refer to as we'll kind of do these backwards, it's 608 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: when you're the next tier to this is going to 609 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: be like an intermediate range. You look at a case 610 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: of well, if you just look at, for instance, Oswald, 611 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: when Oswald was shot by Jack Ruby in the garage, 612 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:20,240 Speaker 1: you can see him, I mean, and there's that classic 613 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: freeze frame where he's kind of hunched over and he's 614 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: got this pained look on his face and Ruby is 615 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:30,480 Speaker 1: extending that snubnose thirty eight caliber revolver. He's holding a 616 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: revolver here and he fires it at Ruby. Well, Ruby 617 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: is in kind of a and this goes to what 618 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: we're trying to figure out. Also with trajectory. Ruby is 619 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 1: kind of tilted down like this when he shot, he 620 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: kind of hunches like this. You know that round actually 621 00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: traveled downward in his body. I mean it passed through 622 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: several several organ systems. He didn't have a he didn't 623 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:59,439 Speaker 1: have a shot, no pun intended of surviving. But that's 624 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: an inner immediate round with him intermediate range, So you know, 625 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 1: it's hard to determine from because you're seeing it. It's 626 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:14,759 Speaker 1: kind of kind of like, uh, it's kind of like 627 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,799 Speaker 1: Ruby's POV, but you're behind Ruby, and it's hard to 628 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: gauge distance in depth from that range. But I would 629 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,280 Speaker 1: say that based upon the muzzle position relative to Ruby, 630 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: I mean relative to Oswald when that weapon was fired, 631 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,799 Speaker 1: you might see some deposition. Now, do you remember, Dave, 632 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:39,200 Speaker 1: what color sweater Ruby was wearing when he was shot? 633 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 2: No, well, when Ruby was shot, you know. 634 00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, when Oswald was shot, I keep now. 635 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 2: I just I can remember as the picture that was 636 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,120 Speaker 2: in the newspaper that you know, basically shows him like 637 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 2: you were, just you know, bent over and the pained 638 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 2: look on his face. 639 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: I don't remember much else he's wearing. He's wearing a 640 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: black sweater and a white shirt. The collar is kind 641 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: of popping up out of it, and you know, if 642 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: we were to look at his body, you know he 643 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: was actually taken to Parkland. He died in the same 644 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,279 Speaker 1: area that the President died in. No, he did, he did. 645 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:11,879 Speaker 1: I think it tipp It was taken to Parkland too, 646 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:16,520 Speaker 1: Uh but yeah, so yeah, I mean they were if 647 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,200 Speaker 1: I remember this, some of this might be Lord, that's 648 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 1: coming back up in my mind. I think they were 649 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: in adjacent trauma rooms. He was adjacent to the room 650 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,160 Speaker 1: that the president had been brought into when they started 651 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:28,000 Speaker 1: running the code on it. 652 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,399 Speaker 2: Well, I mean it makes sense that. I mean, you've 653 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,640 Speaker 2: got it spell and you bring certain victims into certain rooms. 654 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:35,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a level of whatever it's called, level one 655 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: trauma center. 656 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,160 Speaker 2: I think I would imagine that that that actually, as 657 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 2: weird as it is, makes perfectly good sense. 658 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. Can you imagine being a nurse on duty that 659 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,719 Speaker 1: day and you had handled the president and now you 660 00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,320 Speaker 1: got the guy who's been on the news. But anyway, 661 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: he's wearing a black sweater. So I got to tell you, Dave, 662 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,600 Speaker 1: this is where our testing comes in, because if you 663 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,760 Speaker 1: just try to eyeball that sweater to get an idea 664 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: of any kind of debris that's on that sweater. You're 665 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,600 Speaker 1: not going to see it with the unaided eye. That sweater. 666 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: Hopefully they saved it. You know, hospital emergency rooms have 667 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,200 Speaker 1: a bad habit of cutting things off. You know, you 668 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: see that portrayed many times, and it's a real thing. 669 00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,880 Speaker 1: If they preserve that sweater, and the sweater would be 670 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: taken to the crime lab and they could analyze it, 671 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: and they could actually use alternative lighting and chemical testing 672 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 1: to give you the deposition of the gunshot residue that's 673 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 1: on the outside of that sweater, and it'll give you 674 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 1: a range fire. So just imagine this. You're if you're 675 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: firing an intermediate range, the deposition of the powder that 676 00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: is embedded either on an article of clothing or on skin, 677 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: is going to be greatly spread out. It's kind of 678 00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:56,799 Speaker 1: like a water hose, you know, when you put it 679 00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: on spray mode, and it kind of looks like a 680 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,880 Speaker 1: fountain coming out out of its spreading. For the closer 681 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: you get to the nozzle, the tighter it gets. So 682 00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: with that, if he's within let's just say it's eighteen inches, 683 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:12,120 Speaker 1: it might be I don't know, the deposition could be 684 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,520 Speaker 1: I'm just spitballing here, maybe twelve inches by twelve inches. 685 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: That's the deposition that you're talking about high and low 686 00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:24,240 Speaker 1: or high and wide, and that deposition is going to dictate. Now, 687 00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:26,839 Speaker 1: what they would have done is they will take that 688 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 1: same pistol that Ruby used and go to the state 689 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,800 Speaker 1: crime Lab and they will fire. And this is something 690 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: we have to have done by the crime lab. You 691 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: turn that over to the Ballistic Section firearms examination, and 692 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: they have an indoor range where they'll go and they'll 693 00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:44,239 Speaker 1: take a white T shirt and it's really impressive if 694 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: you've never seen this done. White T shirt, hang it 695 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,200 Speaker 1: up and they will fire at various ranges into fresh 696 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: white T shirts. And as they get closer and closer, 697 00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,440 Speaker 1: that deposition tightens up and tightens up. And there's always 698 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: that the defect in the sweater. This always constant. You know, 699 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,720 Speaker 1: it's right there, but as you're getting closer and closer, 700 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: it's tightening down. 701 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,920 Speaker 2: Do they have to put the shirt on something else 702 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,760 Speaker 2: that actually can simulate. 703 00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:14,360 Speaker 1: The No, No, no, they'll they'll hang it. They generally 704 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:18,080 Speaker 1: hang it and do it. Now, that's different types of 705 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,160 Speaker 1: testing than say in a ballistic slab where they go 706 00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: and they fire into a tank filled with cotton strips 707 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,759 Speaker 1: of cotton, or they fire into a water tank that's 708 00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 1: got a catch basin in the bottom, and that way 709 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: they can Let's say we take a projectile out at autopsy. 710 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: All right, let's say they'll removed the projectile out of 711 00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: out of Oswle's body, fired from Ruby's gun. Well, that 712 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: that projectile more than likely that thirty eight special round 713 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: is going to be deformed in some way. It's not 714 00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:51,320 Speaker 1: going to be pristine. Oh exactly. 715 00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 2: Last it goes to the President of the United States 716 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,200 Speaker 2: and ends up on the and. 717 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,919 Speaker 1: Makes a left hand turn it. Yeah, it goes through 718 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,399 Speaker 1: the other guy's wrist, and yeah, where you go to do. 719 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 2: Break seven bones and stelling it Christine, you know what 720 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,680 Speaker 2: that was the That's the metal that was used in 721 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,359 Speaker 2: Iron Man. That's all I'm saying. 722 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding. And one of the things, you know, 723 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: one of the things you're looking for is to try 724 00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:20,520 Speaker 1: to compare the question weapon, which would be the projectile 725 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,040 Speaker 1: or the question projectile that you recover from the body 726 00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 1: with the round that's fired out of Ruby's gun. And 727 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: you compare the two and people will say, well, you 728 00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: know what it was on TV. It's his weapon that 729 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,200 Speaker 1: doesn't stand TV, doesn't stand up in sorry to I'm 730 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,000 Speaker 1: sorry to burst your bubble. That has to be tested 731 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,799 Speaker 1: and scientifically, they have to do a comparison if thing 732 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 1: were to go to trial. Of course, Uh, you know 733 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,440 Speaker 1: it is what it is. Uh, and you try to 734 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: compare it. Now, the closer you get to where you're 735 00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,280 Speaker 1: in a circumstance where you've got a a round that's fired, 736 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 1: let's say, how can I say it. You've got a 737 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: round that is fired at an individual, say it what 738 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 1: would be called close range. Close range. You're going to 739 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,480 Speaker 1: be within a couple of inches of the target. And buddy, 740 00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,360 Speaker 1: when you see, when you see the damage that's done, 741 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,839 Speaker 1: that powder, the unburned powder in particular, rages out of 742 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 1: that weapon, and say, if it strikes skin, you're going 743 00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: to have it's going to look like this is kind 744 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,040 Speaker 1: of disgusting. It's going to look like a huge collection 745 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:34,680 Speaker 1: of blackheads to most people the first time they see it, 746 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: like a huge concentrate you're looking at you're thinking, this 747 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:41,480 Speaker 1: is really bizarre. But of course you've got a defect 748 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,640 Speaker 1: right in a hole, right in the center of it, 749 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,800 Speaker 1: but it's surrounded by all this kind of unburned powder, 750 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:51,359 Speaker 1: and that unburned powder actually gets beneath the skin. It's there. 751 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,120 Speaker 1: So if you took a section of that skin and 752 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: you cut it and you put it on microscopic slide, 753 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:02,520 Speaker 1: guess what When you look at that section microscopically, you 754 00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 1: can actually see the powder. And what I mean by 755 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,320 Speaker 1: that the unburned powder. Powder comes in different shapes depended 756 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:16,640 Speaker 1: upon the actual granules of powder. You can have disc shape, 757 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:22,319 Speaker 1: cylindrical shape, you can have pyramidial shaped powder. And I'm 758 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,000 Speaker 1: talking about the individual grains of powder that come from 759 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,839 Speaker 1: a particular company. So that's kind of an identifier that 760 00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:31,759 Speaker 1: can be used by ballistics. 761 00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:34,040 Speaker 2: Experts that come from a specific company. 762 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because each manufacturer might make a powder where 763 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,360 Speaker 1: the individual grains of powder are in a particular shape 764 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,680 Speaker 1: and that shape is unique to them. So, you know, 765 00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,600 Speaker 1: we try to find all of these components that we 766 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:52,879 Speaker 1: can in addition to doing regular gunshot residue testing where 767 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:58,480 Speaker 1: we're looking for chemical chemical evidence, you know, where we're 768 00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:04,880 Speaker 1: looking for barium, antimony, and lead, which are components of 769 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,640 Speaker 1: of actual gunpowder or propelling I prefer to use the 770 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: term propell and as opposed to gunpowder. 771 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:12,920 Speaker 2: When they do the test to see if I fired 772 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 2: a gun. Yeah, if I have fired a weapon, is 773 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:17,840 Speaker 2: that that was it? 774 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,680 Speaker 1: The GSR Yeah, GSR gunshot rose do testing, okay. 775 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,799 Speaker 2: And that's where you're going to be able to tell 776 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,960 Speaker 2: if I wash my hands, I shoot a weapon, wash 777 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:27,680 Speaker 2: my hands, scrub them down her Are you still going 778 00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:28,360 Speaker 2: to build test me? 779 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,080 Speaker 1: No? Probably not that quick you can me gone. Yeah. 780 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:32,920 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, there's even evidence that people 781 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 1: put that put their hands in their pockets after firing 782 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:39,319 Speaker 1: a weapon. Uh, you know, compromise the concentration of it, 783 00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: right and listen, just because you have it on your 784 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 1: hands doesn't mean you fire a weapon, right, and you 785 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,680 Speaker 1: may have held a weapon, it means that you were 786 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,520 Speaker 1: in proximity to a weapon. They did one study Dave 787 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:55,840 Speaker 1: years ago, uh, testing people that worked in an ammunition factory, 788 00:48:57,040 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 1: and they were testing them every day as they were 789 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: leaving and they're actually putting together components of large, large projectiles, 790 00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,839 Speaker 1: and they were getting they were getting like forty five 791 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:16,319 Speaker 1: percent negatives on these individuals and even worse than even 792 00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:19,319 Speaker 1: worse than that is back and this existed before I 793 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,719 Speaker 1: came into the field, they used to paraffine tests, which 794 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,640 Speaker 1: were where you would have a suspect place their hand 795 00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,359 Speaker 1: into warm wax and they would peel the wax off 796 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:31,239 Speaker 1: of the hands and whatever it captured. It's the same 797 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,080 Speaker 1: thing as doing a tape lift. So you're looking for 798 00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,520 Speaker 1: that residue that's contained within you know this. I don't 799 00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: know if you want to call it a medium or resin, 800 00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:45,160 Speaker 1: whatever it is, but it's called a paraffine test. So 801 00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,680 Speaker 1: after you get past close range, then you have what's 802 00:49:47,719 --> 00:49:52,359 Speaker 1: referred to as press contact or hard contact. Dependent upon 803 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,200 Speaker 1: where you are and where you studied, you'll and what 804 00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:58,319 Speaker 1: pathologists you've worked around. In my field, they'll call it 805 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:02,879 Speaker 1: different things. I've heard hard contact, press contact, and most 806 00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,400 Speaker 1: of the time you see press and hard contact wounds 807 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,319 Speaker 1: with self inflicted wounds. And it's most of the time 808 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,799 Speaker 1: I've always felt it's because the individual is purposed. They 809 00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,480 Speaker 1: want to assure or insure rather that they are going 810 00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:21,680 Speaker 1: to get the job done. Now, when you have this occur, 811 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,920 Speaker 1: that round that is being initiated, when it travels out 812 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:32,160 Speaker 1: of the musle, that weapon, it's creating a cavity in 813 00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:34,840 Speaker 1: the head. Okay, let's just say it's a self inflicted 814 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,239 Speaker 1: to the head, or you could use a sterm as well, 815 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: because that happens too, and it's pressed and it's like 816 00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: pressed hard against the skin and it creates a seal. 817 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,160 Speaker 1: You know, when that weapon is discharged, it's not just 818 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: the projectile coming out. We've already talked about unburned powder. 819 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,319 Speaker 1: You've got smoke that's coming out. But the other thing 820 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,879 Speaker 1: you've got that's coming out, and the reason press gun 821 00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: top press contact gunshot ones are so destructive is that 822 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: you've got heated gas coming out. And we all know 823 00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:12,480 Speaker 1: from eighth grade physical science class that heated gas expands, 824 00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,719 Speaker 1: and it expands at a rapid rate, so you'll get 825 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:20,000 Speaker 1: these grotesque injuries to the head. And it's not just 826 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,360 Speaker 1: the projectile doing it. It's also that gas expanding inside 827 00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,120 Speaker 1: the cranial vault and you'll see fractures that run along 828 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:30,239 Speaker 1: the suture lines. If you know what a suture line is, 829 00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:32,600 Speaker 1: it's when you look at a human skull. You've got 830 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:35,080 Speaker 1: these wavy lines. We've talked about this before where the 831 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: skull kind of interlocks with one another and you'll many 832 00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,920 Speaker 1: times you'll see it literally fracture along the suture lines, 833 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: both posteriorly anteriorly laterally, and it's devastating. And then the 834 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,640 Speaker 1: bone after it passes through bone, those bits of bone 835 00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:53,719 Speaker 1: become trapnel. 836 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,640 Speaker 2: There's that guy in Philadelphia that did the shot himself 837 00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,840 Speaker 2: during the city council meeting. Remember that was on tea. 838 00:51:59,840 --> 00:52:02,640 Speaker 1: Yea, yeah it was. It was actually Bud Dwire it 839 00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 1: was he was actually he was the former treasurer of 840 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:12,600 Speaker 1: the State of Pennsylvania. I actually got to see that 841 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:16,439 Speaker 1: raw footage. You could see his head expand well, yeah, 842 00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:18,800 Speaker 1: and you can you can see if you look very carefully, 843 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,359 Speaker 1: he uses I think that's a cult python. I think 844 00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,160 Speaker 1: it's a three point fifty seven that he's using, and 845 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,960 Speaker 1: it's an inter oral gunshot one. So it's a great 846 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,480 Speaker 1: example of the expansion of gas because when he fires. 847 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,719 Speaker 1: Back in the day, when we got that tape, we 848 00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,719 Speaker 1: put it on uh and we got it at the 849 00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:42,440 Speaker 1: coroner's office. We had that tape on like the most 850 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,319 Speaker 1: high end VCR that there was at the time. It 851 00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,719 Speaker 1: had and I don't understand about the technology. I think 852 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: multiple heads in it and so it could slow things down. Yeah, 853 00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:57,120 Speaker 1: and you could see a flash inside of his mouth 854 00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,920 Speaker 1: and I've seen these. I've had cases where people videotape 855 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,880 Speaker 1: themselves and you see the cheeks expand like a chipmunk, 856 00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:09,319 Speaker 1: and you'll get what a refer to as striya, which 857 00:53:09,360 --> 00:53:12,400 Speaker 1: are the same as stretch marks. You'll get striya on 858 00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:16,760 Speaker 1: the cheeks because it expands so fast, because the rapid 859 00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: expansion of the gas that it creates these these curvelinear 860 00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 1: lines that are called striya and their stretch marks essentially. 861 00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,480 Speaker 1: But it's an acute stretch mark. It's not like somebody's 862 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,759 Speaker 1: getting heavier or whatever in life and you know their 863 00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: limbs are beginning or the diameter of their legs are 864 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: beginning to expand, or they're tummy or whatever. It's different 865 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,320 Speaker 1: than that. It's a real unique feature that you see. 866 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,680 Speaker 1: And then not to mention the damage that the round 867 00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,640 Speaker 1: is creating as it's traveling through the body. 868 00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:48,360 Speaker 2: That's just amazing. I remember that video of his head 869 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,840 Speaker 2: that the one thing I remember is that it stretched. 870 00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 2: It was almost cartoonish. Yeah, very quick, but it was 871 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:56,840 Speaker 2: so shocking that I've only seen it once or twice 872 00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:58,759 Speaker 2: and I remember it and it was many years ago 873 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,480 Speaker 2: in a newsroom when I saw and I just this 874 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 2: is when you were explaining that, I was wondering. 875 00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,279 Speaker 1: No, I actually I'm glad you brought that up. I 876 00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:09,480 Speaker 1: actually showed that video in every year when I do 877 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,880 Speaker 1: my lecture of medical legal death Investigation on firearms related 878 00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: death because and it's a great example of the camera 879 00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:18,640 Speaker 1: never blinks. I don't know who the camera operator was, 880 00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:20,640 Speaker 1: but they stayed on him as he kind of slides 881 00:54:20,640 --> 00:54:22,840 Speaker 1: down the wall, and you can appreciate the volume of 882 00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:25,680 Speaker 1: blood that issues forth from the nose in the mouth, 883 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:27,399 Speaker 1: and a lot of that has to do with how 884 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,960 Speaker 1: thin the floor is of the hard palette is, you know, 885 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: leading up into the skull. It's almost eggshell like in 886 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,600 Speaker 1: thickness or thinness, I guess, and so it kind of 887 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,360 Speaker 1: it shatters like that, and the brain is so vascular, 888 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,560 Speaker 1: you know, you have this copious amount of blood that's 889 00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,000 Speaker 1: coming out, and you if you listen very carefully on 890 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:50,680 Speaker 1: that tape, Dave, you can actually hear the blood flowing, 891 00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:55,200 Speaker 1: which is something I've never encountered before, you know, and 892 00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,920 Speaker 1: I was, you know, from a practitioner standpoint, I was 893 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,480 Speaker 1: fascinated by that. But it's a great teaching tool because 894 00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 1: you really begin to kind of understand the power and 895 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:11,719 Speaker 1: the destructive nature of firearms. And for those of us 896 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: that work in forensics, that teach forensics, or that formerly 897 00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:22,399 Speaker 1: worked in our field, an understanding of firearms and their 898 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:27,480 Speaker 1: function their purpose is essential to being a successful investigator. 899 00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:33,480 Speaker 1: To understand the science and the mechanism of modern firearms, 900 00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:38,400 Speaker 1: because if you don't understand these things that you're encountering 901 00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,759 Speaker 1: out on the street, there's no telling what kind of 902 00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,600 Speaker 1: interpretation you'll wind up making. So it's important that we 903 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:50,640 Speaker 1: always say that we're studied up. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 904 00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks