WEBVTT - The Suits Behind the Insurrection 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.760 Good morning, peepsen. Welcome to Okay f Daily with Meet 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.720 your Girl Danielle Moody. Recording from the home Bunker, Folks, 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:22.680 I have a jam packed legal show for you today 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:26.840 with our friend Glenn Kirshner, host of Justice Matters and 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:32.400 MSNBC legal analyst. Breaking news came out of Georgia with 0:00:32.479 --> 0:00:36.360 regard to Fannie Willis and the grand jury that she 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:42.880 had called in order to review an interview roughly seventy 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:48.400 five people, including Senator Lindsey Graham, who, if you all remember, 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:52.279 tried his damnedest not to have to sit before the 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.920 grand jury and answer any type of questions from Fannie 0:00:55.920 --> 0:01:01.520 Willis and her team. Also, we heard from Offensberger, the 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:05.479 Secretary of State who received the call for the ken 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.200 You find Me eleven thousand, seven hundred and some odd votes, 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:14.399 and Rudy Giuliani among other cast of characters in the 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:19.119 Trump Stopped the Steal who were trying to steal orbit. 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.200 Glenn will give us the details about, you know, what 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:27.000 was missed in mainstream media news, but what we need 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.880 to actually be keeping our eyes on. He will also 0:01:31.280 --> 0:01:37.440 give us some details into the latest rounds of convictions 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:42.839 in the Oathkeeper's trial, which is separate from the initial 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:48.680 Oathkeeper's trial that featured the founder, Elmer Stewart Rhodes, and so, folks, 0:01:50.040 --> 0:01:54.360 what this episode lays out for me is that there 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:59.640 is still a little bit, not a lot, but a 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.520 little bit of hope in the way of Donald Trump 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:12.400 and the architects of the insurrection being held criminally accountable 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:16.520 for their crimes. Now, folks, I believe that we are 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:20.880 going to see the scenario where Donald Trump is indicted 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:25.120 by Fannie Willis apparently the only prosecutor that has a 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.160 backbone in the whole of the United States that has 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.919 evidence on Donald Trump that if in fact she does 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:39.560 go after and indict Donald Trump and Rudy Giuliani and others, 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:46.040 that we may see for the first time in America's history, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.960 a couple of things. One a criminal indictment of a 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.320 former president of the United States, and that same former 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:59.120 president of the United States, while under indictment running for 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.560 president of the United States. If this does not spell 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:06.760 fucking Banana Republic, I don't know what the fuck does. 0:03:07.360 --> 0:03:11.160 Because this is some shit, some messy ass political shit 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:14.639 that you would hear about in other nations and think 0:03:14.639 --> 0:03:17.480 to yourself, Oh, that would never happen in America. America 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:20.880 would never stand for it. Well, because Republicans don't stand 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:24.960 for a fucking thing. Donald Trump was never impeached in 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:27.920 the Senate, which gives him the ability to run for 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.120 office again. And apparently we have no rules on the 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.280 bucks that say that if you are currently indicted for 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:39.320 a crime, that you can't run for office. Lord Jesus 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:44.040 take the wheel. So coming up next my jam packed 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:48.400 conversation with our friend Glenn Kirshner to walk us through 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:53.560 where we are on the road to indictment for Donald Trump. Because, Folks, 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.520 what we have seen is that, and I love this 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:01.200 phrase that Glenn uses, is that the boots of the insurrection, 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:04.640 those people that were literally on the ground in the 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:09.080 Capitol building are receiving penalties. But the people and the 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.520 person that pointed to the Capitol Building and told them 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:16.520 to go take their country back, the person that tweeted 0:04:16.760 --> 0:04:19.839 and got them to Washington, DC in the first fucking place, 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:24.720 is still golfing in Mara Lago while they're in federal prison. 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:30.520 So something here just doesn't fucking seem right. So the 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:33.640 question that we continue to ask on this show and 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.520 everywhere is if the boots are going to be held 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:41.880 responsible for the insurrection? When the fuck will the suits 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:50.800 be held responsible for their strategy, plan and conspiracy to 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:55.960 thwart a free and fair election. That conversation with our 0:04:56.080 --> 0:05:02.599 friend Glenn Kirshner is coming up next. Folks who know 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:06.240 that whenever I have the opportunity to chat with our friend, 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.000 the host of Justice Matters and MSNBC legal analyst and 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:15.320 former federal prosecutor, Glenn Kirshner, I am always thrilled. Yet 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:17.960 we never come with good news, But I'm always thrilled 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:20.279 to just speak with you, Glenn, because you know you 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.119 make me feel less crazy. A lot of news has 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:28.240 been circulating around in the legal sphere, and I want 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:32.880 to start with Fannie Willis in Georgia. I think that 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.400 one of the things that still provides I don't know, 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.839 that mustard seed of hope I talk about often is 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:47.599 the possibility that Georgia, Fulton County and the find me 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:52.560 the eleven thousand some odd votes call that Donald Trump 0:05:52.720 --> 0:06:00.640 made to State the Secretary of State Ravensburger the fake electors. 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:05.279 That gives us probably about as close as we may 0:06:05.360 --> 0:06:11.000 see to an indictment of the architects around this quote 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:13.479 unquote stop this steal. So I want to give you 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.480 an opportunity to just bring us up to speed on 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.520 the latest that has come down out of Georgia and frankly, 0:06:20.600 --> 0:06:26.360 how you are feeling with that breaking news, Danielle. What 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:29.920 we heard Fulton County District Attorney Fannie Willis say an 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:34.719 open court this week is the most concrete and direct 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:39.880 thing we have ever heard a prosecutor who's investigating Donald 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:44.680 Trump say about the likelihood of charges. I viewed this 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:47.480 as an eleven on the legal Richter scale. I don't 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:51.480 know that it got the play it deserves, but she 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:54.039 said so just to set it up, you got the 0:06:54.080 --> 0:06:57.359 funky too grand jury system in Georgia. The regular grand 0:06:57.440 --> 0:07:02.600 jury can indict people but can't issue subpoenas. The Special 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:06.040 grand Jury can issue subpoenas, but it can indict people. 0:07:06.440 --> 0:07:11.520 So Fannie Willis ran seventy five reluctant witnesses through the 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:16.440 special grand Jury. That grand jury then authors a report. Really, 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.920 I believe the prosecutors authored the report and presented to 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.320 the Special grand Jury for its approval, talking about here's 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.680 the evidence, here's who committed crimes. Here's you who should 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:30.040 be indicted. That report then goes back to the regular 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:32.880 grand jury. They look at it, they absorb it, the 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:37.800 prosecutors make their arguments, and then the regular grand jury 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:41.440 indicts people if that's what it believes is the right 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:45.840 thing to do. So the news media went into court 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.679 and brought suit to try to get that grand jury 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:52.960 report released publicly. Fannie Willis herself, not one of her 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:57.680 assistant prosecutors, went into court and said, Judge, we strongly 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.000 object to the report's release at this time because if 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:07.360 it was released, that would interfere with the defendants plural. 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:10.920 She emphasized plural multiple times in the hearing, with the 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:16.160 defendant's right to a fair trial. Danielle, you don't become 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:22.360 a defendant unless you're indicted. That was Fannie Willis communicating 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:28.640 people will be indicted. My second favorite word after defendants 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:32.840 that Fannie Willis used was imminent. She said, Judge, and 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:38.400 are charging decisions are imminent. Fannie Willis is no nonsense. 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:43.120 She probably has all of the vertebrae and the strongest 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:47.120 spine of all of the prosecutors who have looked at 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:53.319 Donald Trump's crimes and when she says defendants are coming 0:08:53.600 --> 0:08:57.000 and the charging decisions are imminent, I take it to 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.800 the bank. I don't know if imminent means days or weeks. 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.800 I am. I am convinced that Fannie Willis has the 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:07.840 goods and she's not afraid to use them, and that 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.360 we're going to see the first indictments of Trump and 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:16.679 company coming from Georgia. Okay, a couple of questions here, 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.920 just to remind people what those what would those indictments? 0:09:21.920 --> 0:09:27.040 What would those charges be? Glenn, because again we have 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:33.400 been in this web of potential legal charges for Donald 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.480 Trump what seems to be well, frankly my whole adult 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:40.920 life because I live in New York. But then with 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:45.640 regard to the stop the steal the election, the documents cases, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:50.640 blah blasso, tell us, just remind folks if this indictment 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.480 were to come down, one, what would the charges be? 0:09:55.160 --> 0:10:01.680 And then two who do we think these defendants are? 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:04.280 Because there again you said there were a parade of 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:08.480 people that came in. We know that Senator Lindsey Graham 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.520 had fought tooth and nail not to sit before the 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.079 grand jury. We know that Rudy Giuliani also fought tooth 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.080 and nail not to sit before the grand jury. So 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.400 tell us who the cast of potential characters and her 0:10:21.480 --> 0:10:26.960 defendants plural would be, so you know the charges. Let 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:30.480 me take one as an example. Under Georgia's state law, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:36.079 it is illegal to solicit election fraud, to ask an 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:40.280 election official or a state government official to engage in 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:44.320 some form of election fraud. And all she has to 0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:48.480 do to prove that crime beyond a reasonable doubt is 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:53.520 push playing on the audio we actually see. I worked 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:58.280 wire tap cases, Danielle, and when you caught conspirators talking 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.080 dirty on the phone about their drug deals, I call 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.280 that a push play trial. You push play the jurors 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:09.360 hear the crime committed on audio tape, soliciting election fraud 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:11.920 under the laws of Georgia as a felony that I 0:11:11.960 --> 0:11:15.120 think will be one of the lead counts against Donald Trump. 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.840 I urged people to read the Brookings Institute deep dive 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:24.280 into all of the laws that the publicly available evidence 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:28.720 suggests Donald Trump and others committed. They cataloged more than 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:33.640 a dozen felony and misdemeanors alike that were violated, arguably 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.840 by what Trumpet Company did. The other big ticket crime. 0:11:37.960 --> 0:11:41.600 I think we're going to see indicted as conspiracy. Remember, 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:45.120 Georgia has what I'll refer to as mini Rico laws. 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.679 You have the federal Rico law, and then a lot 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.680 of the states adopted their own versions of the Rico 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:55.199 laws called mini Rico laws. And Fannie Willis there are 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:58.280 some indications in the litigation and in the grand jury 0:11:59.160 --> 0:12:03.760 proceedings as they unfolded, that she was perhaps using George's 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:07.360 Rico laws to go after this as a Rico crew, 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.199 as a corrupt organization, as a group that was making 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:15.480 a concerted effort to violate the Georgia's state election laws 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.440 in order to get Donald Trump falsely corruptly declared the 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.120 winner of the presidential election in Georgia. So I think 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.280 we might seek a conspiracy charge together with the substitutive 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:32.240 charges of election soliciting, election fraud and others. Who is 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:36.840 likely to be indicted certainly Donald Trump, certainly, Rudy Giuliani 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.480 and Jenna Ellis. I say that because there's a lot 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:44.840 of reporting about how they made false statements to Georgia's 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:50.400 state legislators trying to gin up these false claims of 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:54.080 election fraud to try to undermine the elections results. I 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:58.680 think they are likely defendants, and listen Lindsey Graham. One 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:03.360 of the star witnesses against Lindsey Graham is Georgia's Secretary 0:13:03.400 --> 0:13:07.520 of State Brad Raffensberger, who has very publicly and openly 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:10.760 and I believe also to the grand jury. Though we 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:12.880 don't know precisely what he told the grand jury, he 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:18.320 very openly has said Lindsey Graham called me repeatedly, and 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:23.800 what he was saying to me I interpreted as Lindsey 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:30.040 Graham urging me to toss out lawfully cast ballots. That's 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.360 a quote from a Republican secretary of state about what 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:40.080 a sitting republic senator from another state, not even from Georgia, 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:47.320 was urging him to do commit election fraud, solicit election fraud. So, 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:50.360 if there is a justice God, and I think that 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.960 remains an open question, Lindsey Graham ought to be one 0:13:55.000 --> 0:13:57.440 of those names on the indictment. We will have to 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:00.240 see if Fannie Willis is comfortable with the evidence she 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:05.720 has supporting including Lindsay Graham as a criminal defendant. I 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.520 hope she has the goods. Based on public reporting, it 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.040 looks like she might and I hope she decides it's 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:14.480 the right thing to do. Now, let me ask you this, Glenn, 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:17.319 because this is something that I have been curious about. 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:22.000 So a couple of what was late last year the 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.880 Trump organization, by being prosecuted in New York was found 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:32.120 guilty of seventeen different charges, and one of the biggest 0:14:32.200 --> 0:14:37.320 being all sorts of fraud. Right, does that type of 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:45.040 conviction play into the character of the people that we 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:49.040 are talking about? Meaning, I know that Fannie Willis has 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:54.600 her own you know, slight of evidence as it pertains 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:58.960 to the particular crimes that took place in Georgia. But 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.400 Donald Trump has and the Trump or well, I should say, 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:06.440 the Trump organization with his name on it, has been 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:13.160 in you know, has been charged and found guilty of fraud. Right, 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.000 So does that play in or does that play in 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.600 in a legal sense or just in people's minds? Yes, 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:27.040 that's a great question. It certainly plays in factors in 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:31.160 when it comes to common sense, our commons, right, Right, 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:36.880 does the factor in, you know, in a legally exploitable way? 0:15:37.800 --> 0:15:42.240 The answer is generally no, because you know, there's common 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.760 sense and then there's legal sense, and rarely do those 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:49.840 two things meet. Unfortunately, here's where it does factor in 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:52.960 in a couple of ways. First of all, any information 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.480 or evidence developed by one prosecutor in one jurisdiction, Ken 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:02.080 and I'm sure will be shared with other jurisdictions that 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.480 are investigating the same people for similar crimes, because I 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:11.120 think it's too important for the Department of Justice and 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.480 the prosecutors in Georgia and the prosecutors in New York 0:16:15.040 --> 0:16:18.080 not to be communicating with one another about the evidence 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.160 of crime that they're finding by Trump and his criminal associates. 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:26.400 So it would be stupid, encounter productive if prosecutors weren't 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:30.400 coordinating with one another to use and exploit, in an 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:35.040 appropriately legal sense, evidence that the other jurisdiction has developed. 0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:40.680 But it's not like if Donald Trump personally gets charged 0:16:40.720 --> 0:16:44.040 in both Georgia and New York, it's not like the 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:46.880 New York jury will be told. Oh and by the way, folks, 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.360 he did some crimes down in Georgia too. Even if 0:16:50.360 --> 0:16:53.880 he had already been convicted of those crimes and was 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.400 now on trial in New York, that evidence probably wouldn't 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.800 come in into the new prosecution unless a judge ruled 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.280 that it was relevant somehow it wasn't what we call 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:11.560 uncharged misconduct that was likely to unduly prejudice the defendant's 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:14.080 right to a fair trial. These are legal issues that 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.920 would have to be litigated and sorted out. It may 0:17:16.960 --> 0:17:19.320 be that a judge rules, yeah, what he did in 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:24.480 Georgia was so inextricably intertwined, that's a legal term. With 0:17:24.600 --> 0:17:27.160 the crimes he committed in New York that a judge 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:30.560 would rule they were relevant for certain purposes and therefore 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:33.560 admissible at his New York trial. The other place that 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.840 directly comes in is if you're convicted of a crime 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:41.600 somewhere and you go to trial after you've been convicted, 0:17:41.960 --> 0:17:44.760 and you take the stand and testify, you can be 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:48.520 cross examined with the prior crime you committed. You can 0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:52.639 be it's called impeaching the witness with a conviction, And 0:17:52.800 --> 0:17:55.560 the law generally says, if you take the stand in 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:58.600 your own defensive trial and you have criminal convictions in 0:17:58.640 --> 0:18:01.920 your past, those you're admissible for the jury to use 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.680 to decide whether you're telling the truth today, So they 0:18:05.720 --> 0:18:09.400 go to your credibility. So those are the different ways 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.520 that stuff does or doesn't factor in when it comes 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:20.439 to multiple jurisdictions finding crimes and trying people. So to 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.720 close the loop just on Georgia before we move on 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:29.919 to trumping companies other crimes. So give us your hypothesis 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:37.600 on a timeline here. Okay, So Fannie Willis says, imminently, right, 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.240 you said, we don't know if that is days or weeks. 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:45.879 Let's say that it's it's weeks from the moment that 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:51.760 an indictment comes down. How long are we going to 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:59.400 an actual trial? Knowing that Donald Trump's main defense has 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:01.879 always been to tap dance and run out the clock. 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:06.359 So there's good news and bad news. The bad news 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.239 is criminal trials, once there's an indictment, once somebody's been 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:12.560 charged and hauled into court for the first time and 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.920 a trial date has been set, criminal trials can take 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.439 a while. I wouldn't expect a trial date to be 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.200 set after Donald Trump has been indicted for between six 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:25.760 months and a year out. That is just kind of 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.480 a rule of thumb how long it takes to get 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.480 a case to trial. So the bad news is we'll 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.040 still have to wait for a little bit. The good 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.680 news is when we see Donald Trump forever running out 0:19:38.720 --> 0:19:42.439 the clock in litigation, right, always trying to delay his 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:47.240 day of reckoning. That can be done in civil cases, 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.639 civil lawsuits, and that up to this point is the 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:53.760 only thing we've seen Donald Trump involved in because he 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.399 hasn't been charged criminally with anything, right, But it can't 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:02.080 be done in criminal cases. Why because as judges are 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:08.200 making decisions, you know, on motions, on what evidence can 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:10.919 be admitted, and all these decisions that have to be 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:13.840 made in the run up to a criminal trial, none 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:19.679 of those are appealable. So a defendant delay his trial 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:23.000 date by filing these appeals that go up and down 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.800 and up and down the appellate court chain the way 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.760 you can in civil cases. The only time you can 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.320 appeal anything, with a couple of very minor exceptions, the 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.240 only time a defendant can appeal anything is after you've 0:20:36.280 --> 0:20:39.560 gotten the trial, you've been convicted, you've been sentenced, your 0:20:39.640 --> 0:20:42.960 case is over. Then you can file an appeal of 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:47.760 your conviction. So Donald Trump cannot weaponize the delay in 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:50.359 the court system in the criminal case the way he 0:20:50.480 --> 0:20:53.160 always has been able to do in a civil case. 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:59.400 Oh that is good news, Glenn. Okay, So switching gear 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.360 is out of Jorge Jeff and and pulling back and 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:08.880 looking at where what has happened recently with the next 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:13.040 slate of Oathkeepers. Right a couple of weeks ago, the 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.840 last time that we had you on the show, we 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:20.560 had the convictions come down of seditious conspiracy for the 0:21:20.880 --> 0:21:24.000 former founder of the Oath Keepers and two other people, 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.680 and then they had separate trials that were set up 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:33.320 for the next slate. Tell us what happened with those 0:21:33.400 --> 0:21:38.240 cases and how, if at all, it is going to 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:44.160 inform this sloth like Department of Justice, an Attorney General 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.119 that is signaling to me and anyone who I think 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.640 pays attention that he ain't doing not a goddamn thing 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:55.399 as it pertains to going after Donald Trump and the 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.560 architects of this crime. Because frankly, what I said the 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:02.560 other day on Twitter, Glenn is that I look at 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.240 who is in the House of Representatives right now and 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:09.680 realize that Merritt Garland is to blame for why these 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:14.480 people have not been indicted for their involvement in the insurrection. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:18.679 Knowing that many of those House members were in fact 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.520 involved in the stop to Steal rally and involved in 0:22:22.600 --> 0:22:27.840 given recognisance tours to who would then become insurrectionists. Yeah, 0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:30.200 don't let me forget to talk about the sloth like 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.119 pace of the Department of Justice at the end of 0:22:33.119 --> 0:22:36.159 this answer. But I want to start with the Oathkeepers trial. 0:22:36.760 --> 0:22:40.320 So the first Oathkeeper's trial was against five Oathkeepers, kind 0:22:40.320 --> 0:22:44.119 of some of the upper echelon of the Oathkeepers organization, 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:48.760 including the president, the leader, Elmer Stuart Rhodes, the guy 0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.639 with the eye patch because as a firearms instructor he 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:53.600 shot his own eye out. You can't make that up. 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:58.400 So Elmer Rhodes and his top lieutenant, Kelly Megs were 0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:02.800 convicted of the lead charged seditious conspiracy, the attempted violent 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.159 overthrow of the government, and all five of those defendants 0:23:06.160 --> 0:23:10.800 were convicted of several other charges. And that was the 0:23:10.840 --> 0:23:13.960 first seditious conspiracy conviction in more than a decade in 0:23:13.960 --> 0:23:17.120 the United States. These cases aren't often brought, and when 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.880 they are, they're not always successful. So that was actually 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.720 a really big deal. Now then, and I attended that 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:27.399 entire seven week trial, and the evidence was powerful, it 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.840 was overwhelming, proved beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:35.159 these five Oathkeepers. Then we went to part two of 0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.760 the oath keeper's trial four more defendants, and I didn't 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:43.679 attend that trial. Again, my fellow former colleagues and my 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.760 friends were the prosecutors and that one as well, and 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:51.080 the jury just hands down convicted all four of those 0:23:51.080 --> 0:23:55.720 oath keepers of seditious conspiracy and other charges related to 0:23:55.720 --> 0:23:59.119 the insurrection. And of course the Proud Boys are on 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:02.240 trial right now, and I would bet buck my betting limit. 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:03.920 I'm not a high roller. I would bet a buck 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:07.159 that they are all about to be convicted of seditious 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:11.720 conspiracy as well. It's almost becoming routine that the federal 0:24:11.760 --> 0:24:18.520 prosecutors are indicting the boots of the insurrection for seditious conspiracy. Now, 0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:22.480 of course, the Department of Justice hasn't managed to rise 0:24:22.520 --> 0:24:25.760 above the boots of the insurrection, the people that Donald 0:24:25.760 --> 0:24:28.720 Trump told to attack the capital and start to take 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:32.600 on the suits of the insurrection. The suits are out 0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:35.720 there holding dinner parties and fundraisers and playing golf and 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:39.240 you committing any other number of crimes because they haven't 0:24:39.280 --> 0:24:42.200 been held accountable for any of their crimes. With Respected 0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:48.440 DJ's sloth like pace. Here's what has me so upset. 0:24:51.520 --> 0:24:56.440 What the Department of Justice is doing by waiting now 0:24:56.600 --> 0:25:01.359 more than two years to hold accountable bowl the suits 0:25:01.359 --> 0:25:06.080 of the insurrection, the people who organized, funded, orchestrated, and 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:09.800 incited and directed the attack on the Capitol. What they 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:14.400 have done is they've sent a powerful message that if 0:25:14.480 --> 0:25:19.320 you in the future try to overthrow our democracy, let 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.159 me tell you what's going to happen. We're going to 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:26.720 give you a full two years and counting to come 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:30.159 up with your next move, maybe to try to do 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:34.119 it again, maybe to avoid accountability, maybe to tamper with witnesses, 0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:38.160 but we will give you a full two plus years 0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:41.280 to try to come up with your next move. That 0:25:41.400 --> 0:25:47.040 is law enforcement insanity, because you're not deterring crime, you're 0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:53.800 encouraging crime. This is something I don't understand from a 0:25:53.880 --> 0:25:56.840 department that I served for more than for nearly quarter 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.600 of a century. This is not the way it worked 0:25:59.600 --> 0:26:02.320 when I was there, right, I understand this is an 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:07.359 unusual case, But frankly, there are more reasons to hold 0:26:07.359 --> 0:26:11.000 these people accountable immediately for trying to kill our democracy, 0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:15.800 not less reasons. So the sloth like pace I think 0:26:15.880 --> 0:26:20.399 every day works to the extreme detriment of the health 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:25.000 and continued viability of our democracy. You know, Glenn, I 0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:29.320 gotta tell you, you know, I speak to so many 0:26:29.760 --> 0:26:35.320 legal folks, and you know, the other day I spoke 0:26:35.400 --> 0:26:40.119 with Ellie Mistol, who is the Justice correspondent for the nation, 0:26:40.640 --> 0:26:43.880 and Ellie said to me, in no uncertain terms, ding, 0:26:44.000 --> 0:26:46.639 Llen ain't happening. He's like, I knew that when Merrick 0:26:46.720 --> 0:26:52.280 Garland was appointed to be Attorney General, anyone else, Doug Jones, 0:26:52.320 --> 0:26:55.840 Sally Yates would have been the people that had the 0:26:55.880 --> 0:27:01.080 backbone and the fortitude to get this done. And we 0:27:01.280 --> 0:27:05.679 kept saying, oh, Merrek Garland just needs more time, but 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:11.600 people knew, based on the cases that he has overseen, 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.080 based on the kind of person that he is, that 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:18.960 if you wanted justice to be done, an accountability to 0:27:19.200 --> 0:27:23.359 be delivered to the feet of Donald Trump and his minions, 0:27:23.640 --> 0:27:27.320 Merrick Garland won the guy. And he also wouldn't have 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:29.399 been the guy apparently to sit on this type of 0:27:29.480 --> 0:27:33.639 vicious Supreme Court either, right. So I'm just I wonder 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:38.440 I want to get your thoughts on that assertion by 0:27:38.560 --> 0:27:41.160 other friend of the show, Ellie Misstell. Yes, the first 0:27:41.160 --> 0:27:43.959 of all, I love Ellie and I missed the days 0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:46.359 when he and I would sit around that round table 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:52.560 with David up with and it was so liberating because 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:55.080 we got to talk about everything for the entire hour 0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:57.600 instead of just two or three minutes at a time. 0:27:57.640 --> 0:28:01.040 And I was not only in formed by Ellie, but 0:28:01.080 --> 0:28:05.000 I was always amused because the dude, he is unique 0:28:05.480 --> 0:28:11.200 in his ability to inject humor with deadly serious information 0:28:11.440 --> 0:28:14.240