1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:05,000 Speaker 1: Als media. 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: This is it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. Today 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 2: I'm joined by James Stout. This episode is going to 4 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 2: be about ICE actions against students, scholars, and professors around 5 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 2: the country and this wave of deportations targeting people engaged 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 2: in pro Palestine speech protest, as well as some individuals 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: who have been roped up in this new wave of 8 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: deportations who have not publicly engaged in Palestine activism. Let's 9 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 2: start on the evening of Saturday, March eighth, Mahmoud Khalil 10 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 2: and his wife were returning home from dinner when plain 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,479 Speaker 2: clothesed ICE agents followed the couple into their campus apartment 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 2: building at Columbia University. A man wearing a Marvel graphic 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: tea arrested Khalil for then unknown reasons and threatened to 14 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 2: arrest Khalil's wife, who is eight months pregnant and an 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: American citizen. When Khalil's wife brought his green card from 16 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: their apartment, says, one of the ICE agents placed a 17 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: phone call informing someone Khalil was a permanent resident, to 18 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: which the person on the phone replied, let's bring him 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:09,119 Speaker 2: in any way. 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:11,119 Speaker 1: You've got to be under arrest. 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 3: Turn around, around, turn around. 22 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, he's not resisting phone. Okay, you. 23 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,400 Speaker 3: Guys really don't need to be doing. 24 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:43,320 Speaker 2: All of that. During the arrest, Khalil's lawyer, Amy Greer, 25 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 2: spoke in the phone with one of the ICE agents 26 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 2: who said that they were acting on State Department orders 27 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 2: to revoke Khalil's student visa. Greer reiterated to the agents 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,760 Speaker 2: that Khalil was in fact a permanent resident with a 29 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 2: green card, but the ICE agent just responded by saying 30 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 2: they were revoking the green card instead. Khalil's a graduate 31 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: student who has been studying at Columbia for over two years. 32 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 2: Last year, Khalil emerged as a visible figure in the 33 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: college encampment protests, becoming a public spokesperson and a lead 34 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: negotiator on behalf of Columbia University apartheid divest. Though never 35 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: being arrested, Khalil faced harassment from right wing Zionist docsing 36 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 2: campaigns calling for his deportation, and when ICE did come 37 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 2: for Khalil, disappearing him to a detention facility in Louisiana 38 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: and cutting him off from communication with his wife and lawyer. 39 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: Throughout all of this, he was not charged with any crime. Instead, 40 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:41,239 Speaker 2: Ice in the State Department are using a rarely used 41 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 2: Cold War era immigration statute that gives the Secretary of 42 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 2: State the power to exclude or deport any non citizen 43 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 2: of the United States if there are quote reasonable grounds 44 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: to believe that in individual's entry, proposed activities, presence, or 45 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: activities in the United States would have quote potentially serious 46 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 2: adverse foreign policy consequences. 47 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the one that like I remember at 48 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: the time, you and I were discussing this, like in 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 3: our group chat, and we were trying to work out 50 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 3: like how the Secretary of State could be revoking a 51 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 3: green card, like yeah, and I think you found this, 52 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,920 Speaker 3: so you found it somewhere in it. The Trump administration 53 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 3: has been very very good at finding very obscure pieces 54 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 3: of law that it can wheeled against migrants. Right, Like, 55 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: no one in twenty sixteen would have foreseen what they 56 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 3: did with Title forty two, which is a public health law, 57 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 3: and they're doing something similar here. I mean, they may 58 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 3: have spent the last four years looking for these things, 59 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 3: es cecially when the campus protests began, but like, this 60 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: is entirely unprecedented as far as some were. 61 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: And right if this happened like we discussed how this 62 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: case was probably going to be used as a testing 63 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 2: ground for employing these tactics on a more widespread scale, 64 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 2: creating legal precedent, and sure enough, Khalil's case was not 65 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: an outlier. This was just the first public instance of 66 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: the Trump administrations directed targeting of students they believed to 67 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: be associated with protests against Israel and its actions in Gaza, 68 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 2: and this wave of actions by ICE had actually already 69 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,799 Speaker 2: begun before Khalil's arrest. The day before Khalil was arrested, 70 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 2: ICE agents knocked on the door of PhD student Rajani 71 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 2: Shrini Vassen, who a few days prior was suddenly notified 72 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: that her student visa had been revoked. When ICE agents knocked, 73 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: she did not answer the door. The next day, I 74 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: showed up again to her Columbia University apartment. Trinavassen was 75 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: not home, but upon hearing of Khalil's arrest just a 76 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: few hours later, she decided to quickly collect some belongings 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: and flee to Canada. Five days later, when ICE returned 78 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 2: to her residence, but this time with a warrant, Trinavassen 79 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 2: was already gone. Homeland Security Secretary Christy Nome praised this 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: as quote unquote self deportation. 81 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, they talk about this a lot, Like self deportation 82 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 3: is definitely one of their goals. They talked about it 83 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 3: before Trump even came into power. Like that's what we're 84 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 3: seeing a lot of these spectacle raids and and like 85 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 3: spectacle deportations gear tactics. Yeah, yeah, exactly the desires that 86 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 3: people leave. Is she a Canadian citizen or like I. 87 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 2: Don't believe so, No, Okay, it was just the fastest 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: flight from LaGuardia out of the country, out of like, 89 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,080 Speaker 2: you know, the closest, the closest she could be. 90 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder what her immigration states is in Canada now. 91 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 2: She is currently figuring this whole situation out still, Okay, 92 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: navigating her legal options both in Canada and the States. 93 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that'll be interesting too to see what Canada can 94 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 3: offer her. And like, I don't think the Trump administration 95 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,720 Speaker 3: would go after like having her extradited back because if 96 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 3: she says she's not accused of a crime and then 97 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 3: they've kind of got what they wanted. It'll be interesting 98 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:47,360 Speaker 3: to follow that. 99 00:05:47,320 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: There is no need for extradition because none of the 100 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: people that were talking about today were choosed of any crime. 101 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:55,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, with the other cases of quote unquote like self deportation, 102 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 3: one of the issues is people have had their passport 103 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: seized and held, like like lots of Venice vigrants, so 104 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: they actually can't or it would be very difficult for 105 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 3: them to like just get on a fly and leave. 106 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:07,840 Speaker 2: Which I think is in part why she made the 107 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 2: decision to get out when she could. 108 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 3: Right. 109 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 2: DHS claimed in a statement that Trina Vasan advocated violence 110 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 2: and was quote involved in activities supporting hamas a terrorist 111 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 2: organization unquote. ICE is targeting her seemingly stems from being 112 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: mass arrested while trying to return to her apartment from 113 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 2: a picnic with friends on the same day as the 114 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: Hamilton Hill occupation. She couldn't get home and was caught 115 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,239 Speaker 2: up in the crowd and was arrested among one hundred 116 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: other people. She received two summons for obstructing traffic and 117 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: failure to disperse, but her case was quickly dismissed. Homeland 118 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,919 Speaker 2: Security claims that failing to declare these two summons is 119 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 2: what caused her visa to be revoked. Okay, interesting, that 120 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: same week ICE went after another Green card holder at Columbia, 121 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 2: a twenty one year old student named Yung Sam How. Chung, 122 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 2: a permanent resident who immigrated to the United States from 123 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: South Korea with her family when she was seven. On 124 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 2: March ninth, ICE agents visited her parents' home looking for Chung, 125 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: and that day she received an odd text message, reading, Hi, Yunsau, 126 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: This is Audrey from the police. My job is to 127 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 2: reach out to you and see if you have any 128 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 2: questions about your recent arrest and the process going forward. 129 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 2: When are you available for a phone call unquote. This 130 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: recent arrest was allegedly in reference to being detained, among 131 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: others at a sit in protest at Bernard College on 132 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: March fifth. Chung was charged and then released with misdemeanor obstruction. 133 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: After receiving that sketchy text message, Chung got an email 134 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: from Columbia Public Safety reading quote, the US Attorney's Office 135 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 2: for the Southern District of New York has asked us 136 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: to inform you that Homeland Security Investigation agents are seeking 137 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: to make contact with you in connection with an administrative 138 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 2: warrant for your arrest. Consistent with universities practice, we wanted 139 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 2: to share this information and their request with you. If 140 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: you are represented by counsel, it may make sense for 141 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: your lawyer to speak directly with DHS unquote. Chung's lawyer 142 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 2: decided to call quote unquote to Audrey from the police, 143 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: who revealed that she was actually an HSI agent and 144 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 2: that the State Department was revoking Miss Chung's residency status. Now, 145 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 2: rather than opting for self deportation or turning herself into 146 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 2: immigration authorities, Chung decided to go into hiding and fight 147 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 2: the deportation in the courts while trying to evade ised attention. 148 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 2: When Ice failed to locate her, they enlisted the help 149 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 2: of federal prosecutors. To quote from the New York Times quote, 150 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 2: on March tenth, Perry Carboni, a high ranking lawyer in 151 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: the Federal Prosecutor's office, told Miss Amaud, miss Chung's attorney, 152 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 2: that the Secretary of State, mister Rubio, had revoked Miss 153 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: Chung's visa. Miss amd responded that Miss Chung was not 154 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: in the country on a visa and was a permanent resident, 155 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 2: according to the lawsuit. Mister Carboni responded that mister Rubio 156 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: had quote revoked that as well, unquote. Yeah, so this 157 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 2: is the exact same language we saw with Khalil, and 158 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 2: it displays a general uncaring towards who they are actually 159 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: targeting and what their actual legal status is in the 160 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: United States. They think they're going after people's student visas, 161 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 2: but when it turns out they have green cards, that 162 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 2: doesn't stop them. They still continue to do it anyway. 163 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: On March thirteenth, Ice searched two residences on campus with warrants, 164 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: citing a statute for harboring non citizens, but Chung was 165 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: nowhere to be found. Like Khalil, the Trump administration is 166 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 2: arguing that her presence of the United States hinders the 167 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,200 Speaker 2: administration's foreign policy agenda. But her lawyers note that Chung 168 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: was not, by any means a quote unquote movement leader. 169 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 2: She was simply one of hundreds of students who joined 170 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 2: in nationwide protests against Israel's actions in Gaza. Her lawyer's 171 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 2: right quote, Miss Chung has not made public statements to 172 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: the press or otherwise assumed a high profile role in 173 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: these protests. She was rather one of a large group 174 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,559 Speaker 2: of college students raising, expressing, and discussing shared concerns unquote. 175 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 2: I had previously faced university disciplinary process which found she 176 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: was not in violation of any university policy related to protests. 177 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: Last year, Chung's lawyers filed a lawsuit to prevent her deportation, 178 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: claiming that ICE's actions against Chung are illegal and unconstitutional. 179 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: This lawsuit reads, quote, Officials at the highest echelon's government 180 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 2: are attempting to use immigration enforcement as a bludgeon to 181 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 2: suppress speech that they dislike, including Miss Chung's speech. ICE's 182 00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 2: shocking actions against Miss Chung form part of a larger 183 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: pattern of attempted US government repression of constitutionally protected protest 184 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: activity and other forms of speech unquote. On March twenty fifth, 185 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 2: a federal judge granted a temporary restraining order halting efforts 186 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 2: from ICE to detain or relocate Chung. The judge said 187 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 2: that the government produced quote nothing in the record to 188 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: indicate Chung is a danger to the community or a 189 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: quote unquote foreign policy risk, or that she was in 190 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 2: any communication with terrorist organizations. The judge said that there 191 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: would be quote no trip to Louisiana here unquote. This 192 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 2: is in reference to the big iceed attention facility in Louisiana. 193 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this ad break, Okay. We're 194 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: back now. Although Chung has at least temporarily halted ICE's 195 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,520 Speaker 2: efforts to detain or deporter, not all legal recourses have 196 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: proven successful. This week, a US district judge declined a 197 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: request to block the deportation of Cornell's student Mamadou Tall 198 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: after the State Department revoked his visa on March thirty first, 199 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: Tall released a statement, quote, given what we have seen 200 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 2: across the United States, I have lost faith that a 201 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 2: favorable ruling from the courts would guarantee my personal safety 202 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 2: and ability to express my beliefs. I've lost faith I 203 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 2: could walk the streets without being abducted. Weighing these options, 204 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 2: I took the decision to leave on my own terms. 205 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty bleak. 206 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 2: So Tall has elected for the quote unquote self deportation option, 207 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: at least for now. I believe his case is going 208 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: to continue, but he is not going to remain in 209 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: the United States. 210 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. I think he returned to the UK, right. 211 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: I believe so. Yeah, he's a British citizen now. Interestingly, 212 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:33,280 Speaker 2: last September, Cornell University itself tried to revoke Tall's student 213 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 2: visa for involvement in student protests but he successfully appealed 214 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:41,479 Speaker 2: and was able to continue his African studies PhD remotely. 215 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. I spoke to him a little bit back then, 216 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 3: just FIA direct message, But I think at that time, 217 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 3: whatever his agreement was, it seems like there was a 218 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 3: component of it that at least he didn't want to 219 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 3: talk about it in public, which is fine. Everyone has 220 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: the right to do that, and he should do it 221 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 3: was best for himself. But maybe I'll try and follow 222 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 3: up with him again now see if he wants to speak, 223 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 3: because he seems to have like he's been of all 224 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 3: of these people at the one who's been able to 225 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 3: make the most statements and then control his narrative to 226 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 3: some degree. Yeah. 227 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 2: No, he entered this period of like radio silence after 228 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 2: he won his appeal last fall, and then only started 229 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: speaking publicly again once he began getting targeted by the 230 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 2: Trump administration. 231 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, like the past month and a half. I think 232 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,679 Speaker 3: he proactively filed that suit right like before. 233 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: Yes. 234 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, Now, the scale that Mark Rubio and I start 235 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 2: seeking for in regards to deep ortations is seemingly going 236 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,679 Speaker 2: to be increasingly large. On March twenty seventh, Secretary of 237 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,240 Speaker 2: State Mark Rubio claimed that he has revoked over three 238 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 2: hundred student visas so far, saying at a press conference, quote, 239 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 2: we do it every day. Every time I find one 240 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 2: of these lunatics, I take away their visas unquote. 241 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: Now there are a. 242 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 2: Few ways the government is currently trying to find these 243 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: quote unquote lunatics. I used to seem to be targeting 244 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 2: non citizens who have been arrested or detained at Palestine protests, 245 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: even if their charges were subsequently dropped. This is the 246 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 2: case for Chung and Shriny Vawsen, as well as former 247 00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 2: student Leca Cordia, a Palestinian who was arrested at Columbia 248 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,960 Speaker 2: campus protests in April of twenty twenty four She's currently 249 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: being held in an ice attention facility in Texas. Now 250 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: beyond arrest records, the government is utilizing the World Wide 251 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: Web and social media to identify new and returning visa 252 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 2: applicants and possibly current visa holders that quote support terrorist 253 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: organizations unquote. Social media screening of immigrants and visa holders 254 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: has been slowly ramping up since twenty fourteen and accelerated 255 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: during Trump's first term, but a new directive from Secretary 256 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 2: of State Mark Rubio titled enhanced screening and social media 257 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: vetting for visa applicants was sent out on March twenty 258 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: fifth and leaked by journalist Ken Klippenstein. The directive cites 259 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: two executive orders from Trump measures to combat anti Semitism 260 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 2: end quote protecting the United States from foreign terrorists and 261 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: other national security and public safety threats. The State Department 262 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 2: is now requiring consular officers to conduct a quote unquote 263 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: mandatory social media review with screenshotting for students and student 264 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: exchange visitors with the intent of looking for evidence of 265 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: quote advocating for, sympathizing with, or persuading others to endorse 266 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: or espouse terrorist activities or support a designated foreign terrorist 267 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,640 Speaker 2: organization quote. Now this applies to FM and J visas, 268 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: so student exchange visas, academic visas, and vocational visas. The 269 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 2: directive also instructs officers to search social media for quote 270 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 2: conduct that bears a hostile attitude towards US citizens or 271 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 2: US culture, including government institutions or founding principles unquote, which 272 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 2: is kind of the most incredibly broad thing I've ever 273 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 2: s scene. 274 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's leaving it at the create discretion 275 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,240 Speaker 3: of the officer, right, there's. 276 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: Already been an instance of a US customers agent's denying 277 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: entry to someone who had quote unquote anti Trump sentiments 278 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: found on their phone. Now, though this new directive is 279 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,640 Speaker 2: focused on denying or revoking student visas, the Department of 280 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: Homeland Security is seeking to expand its social media data 281 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:29,240 Speaker 2: collection to US citizenship, green card, and asylum applicants, basically 282 00:16:29,280 --> 00:16:32,720 Speaker 2: anyone and everyone in the US immigration system, no matter 283 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 2: their current status or what previous vetting they might have 284 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: already gone through. 285 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 286 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: On March fifth, DHS issued a sixty day notice for 287 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: public comment on a proposal for quote uniform of vetting 288 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: standards and national security screening unquote that includes the collection 289 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 2: of social media information for all non citizens applying for 290 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 2: immigration benefits like citizenship or permanent residency. A statement from 291 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 2: the US Citizenship and Immigration Service reads, quote, these efforts 292 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: ensure that those seeking immigration benefits to live and work 293 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 2: in the United States do not threaten public safety, undermine 294 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 2: national security, or promote harmful anti American ideologies unquote. 295 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like the anti American ideologies again is just fastly broad. 296 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 2: Right, It's like crazy red scare level stuff. 297 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm guessing this will be either like a 298 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 3: literal control f of whatever they can find of your 299 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: public social media or aif that's some kind of AI assistant. 300 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 3: That's what it seems to be, right, Like. 301 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 2: Former immigration agents have suggested that they're probably going to 302 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 2: use some AI system for this, as they've already kind 303 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,879 Speaker 2: of used more primitive versions, but ramping up to this 304 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 2: scale and with like this increased focus and like attention 305 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,679 Speaker 2: on quote unquote AI is going to affect the way 306 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 2: that they do this betting process. Absolutely, yeah, great. So 307 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: though the government is trying to increase their social media 308 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: screening so far, they actually haven't had to do that 309 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: much of their own research to identify targets for removal. 310 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: On March seventeenth, a Georgetown scholar named Bdar Khan Suri 311 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: was arrested by Homeland Security outside his home in Virginia, 312 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 2: where he lives with his wife, who's a US citizen, 313 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 2: and their three kids. According to Surrey's lawyer, masked agents 314 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 2: quote refused to tell him the basis for the arrest, 315 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: handcuffed him, and forced him into an unmarked black SUV. Later, 316 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: his wife was informed that her husband's visa was revoked 317 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: based on social media posts. And that Surrey was sent 318 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: to ice attention in Louisiana. Homeland Security Assistant Secretary Trisha 319 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: McLoughlin posted on x that Surrey was quote actively spreading 320 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 2: Hamas propaganda and promoting anti Semitism on social media. The 321 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 2: Secretary of State issued a determination that Surrey's activities and 322 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: presents in the United States rendered him deportable unquote. Of course, 323 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: any single post in support of Palestine is going to 324 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 2: be seen as quote unquote promoting antisemitism. According to Mark Rubio, 325 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 2: Surrey's lawyer wrote in a court filing, quote, doctor Surrey 326 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 2: is an academic, not an activist, but he spoke out 327 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,320 Speaker 2: on social media about his views on the Israel Gazo war. 328 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 2: Even more so, his wife is an outspoken critic of 329 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 2: the Israeli government and the violence it has perpetuated against 330 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 2: Palestinians unquote. Yet see that he was identified through his wife, right, correct, 331 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 2: and we'll get to that. 332 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: Okay. 333 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 2: Surrey has no criminal record, and according to a colleague, 334 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: he did not attend campus protests. However, Surrey's lawyer writes 335 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: that his family have been victims of a docsing campaign, 336 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: with his wife stating that a website had quote claimed 337 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: falsely that my husband and I have quote ties to 338 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 2: Hamas unquote. The Homeland Security Assistant Secretary references that claim 339 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 2: in a public statement on Twitter. And this harassment stems 340 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 2: in part from Surrey's father in law being a maud Yusef, 341 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,679 Speaker 2: a former advisor to Hamas. A federal judge blocked Suri's 342 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 2: deportation as immigration court proceedings continue. But he's still means 343 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 2: in iced attention. 344 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:03,439 Speaker 3: What kind of visa was he on? 345 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 2: He's not a green card holder. He received his visa 346 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 2: to continue doctoral research on peace building in Iraq and Afghanistan. 347 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 2: It's some kind of like academic or exchange visa. I 348 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 2: don't think we know the exact type that he has. 349 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, that would be like it would be interesting 350 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 3: to know if like, are they searching just through F 351 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 3: one visa databases or are they said I mean obviously 352 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: not if they're finding these green card people, but. 353 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 2: Like, well, I think specifically in this case, they're searching 354 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: social media. They're not searching through their own databases. They 355 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 2: don't care what kind of visa he has. They're looking 356 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: at this docksing campaign that's been targeted at him and 357 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 2: his family for like over a year and using that 358 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: as the basis to deport him. 359 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: Right, and then being like, can we deport he's not 360 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: a citizen? 361 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 2: So yes, basically even though his wife is a citizen. 362 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's children publy therefore also citizens. 363 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 2: His wife who's whose father is a mod yusef they 364 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 2: can't deport her because she's a citizen or at least 365 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: they can't abort her right now. Who knows if they'll 366 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 2: try to denaturalize in the future. Yeah, but this is 367 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 2: the easiest person to target. 368 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's kind of what they're going for. Like, 369 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 3: a lot of this is it's like the politics of 370 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,160 Speaker 3: owning the Libs, Right, It's like the politics of being 371 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 3: angry at your niece and nephew on Facebook and wanting 372 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 3: to humiliate them. 373 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:24,479 Speaker 2: Like. 374 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 3: It's not a particularly lately coherent policy other than like 375 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 3: the Palestine protests made a lot of people on the 376 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: right mad and they don't like migrants, and that now 377 00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 3: they're using this obscure legal provision as a cudgel against 378 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 3: everything they dislike. 379 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and using social media to identify people who have 380 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: never been arrested, never been charged with anything. Yeah, we're 381 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 2: going to finish our discussion on these docing campaigns and 382 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 2: ICE action starking students after. 383 00:21:53,359 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 3: This ad break. All right, we're back, So right. 384 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 2: Now, the two main vectors for iceed attention whether you 385 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 2: have a green card or a visa, seems to be 386 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: previous arrests or these mass doxing campaigns. Now, someone like 387 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 2: Mahmoud Khalil was never arrested or charged with the crime, 388 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: but instead has been the target of harassment from both 389 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 2: a local campus doxing account run by Columbia professors and 390 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 2: fellow students, as well as larger right wing Zionist organizations 391 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 2: like Canary Mission. A few days before being arrested by ICE, 392 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,360 Speaker 2: Canary Mission posted a video naming Khalil as a quote 393 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 2: unquote siren mog suspected foreign national alert. So what is 394 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: Canary Mission? If you're lucky enough to be unaware? Since 395 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: twenty fifteen, Canary Mission has been collecting and publishing a 396 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: personal information of people they accuse of promoting quote hatred 397 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 2: of the United States, Israel, and Jews on a North 398 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: American college campus and beyond unquote. Now they have profiles 399 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 2: for a few legitimate American neo Nazis, but many profiles 400 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:12,440 Speaker 2: only cite criticism of the Israeli government and its actions 401 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 2: in Gaza as proof of alleged anti Semitism. And now 402 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 2: there is increasing evidence that the government is using websites 403 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 2: like Canary Mission to target students, professors, and scholars for 404 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 2: ICE deportation, essentially outsourcing intail gathering from these pro Israel 405 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: non government organizations. A few weeks ago, Canary Mission uploaded 406 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 2: a profile for Rumesa oz Turk, a Turkish graduate student 407 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 2: at Tufts University. They included a picture her resume and 408 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,680 Speaker 2: linked to an op ed she co wrote last year 409 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: for her student paper criticizing the university for its ties 410 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: to Israel amidst the war in Gaza. For this, the 411 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 2: Canary Mission claimed oz Turk quote engaged in anti Israel 412 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,680 Speaker 2: activism unquote. Two weeks later, while walking along to if 413 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: Tar dinner for Ramadan, a plane clothes ICE agent approached 414 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 2: oz Turk on the sidewalk. As he grabbed her arms 415 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: and wrestled away her phone, five more agents surrounded her 416 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: and pulled up their gator masks as neighbors began filming 417 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: the arrest. Within twenty four hours, she was moved to 418 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 2: ICE attention in Louisiana. A statement from Homeland Security claimed 419 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 2: that HSI Homeland Security Investigation had determined that oz Turk 420 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 2: quote engaged in activities in support of hamas a foreign 421 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 2: terrorist organization that relishes the killing of Americans, and Secretary 422 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 2: of State Mark Rubio said, quote, we gave you a 423 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 2: visa to come and study and get a degree, not 424 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 2: to become a social activist that tears up our university campuses. 425 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 3: Unquote. Yeah, I mean again, like writing an op ed 426 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 3: is like as central to the First Amendment as things 427 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 3: can be. 428 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, there's no evidence she was even attending campus protests, 429 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 2: let alone r tearing up tearing up the university. She 430 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: co wrote an op ed, And you should not be 431 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 2: deported for engaging in protest on a university campus at all. Right, 432 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 2: this is flatantly unconstitutional, extremely worrying. The fact that this 433 00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 2: person just got a profile in the Canary Mission website 434 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: for writing an op ed and then this is used 435 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 2: as justification for her deportation is still like an even 436 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: greater escalation. 437 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if we're talking about like this is sort 438 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: of like liberal idea of the marketplace of ideas, right, 439 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 3: Like the way that the ideas enter the marketplace, like, 440 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 3: you will find nothing more amenable to liberalism than writing 441 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 3: an op ed in your campus newspaper. Right, that is 442 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 3: the most like well behaved, straight down the middle, constitutionally 443 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 3: protected thing way to engage in anti genocide activism, pro 444 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 3: Palestine activism. So like in a sense, this one is 445 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 3: particularly disturbing, like a a frontal assault on First Amendment 446 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 3: rise for non citizens is what it is. Yes. 447 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: On March twenty fourth, Canary Misis published a new section 448 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 2: of their website titled Uncovering Foreign Nationals, which lists the 449 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 2: profiles of non citizens who they believe qualify for deportation. 450 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 3: Jesus. 451 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,320 Speaker 2: Another far right pro Israel docs in group called Batar, 452 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: which even the ADL lists as an extremist group, which 453 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 2: is wild. Baitar says that they have given the Trump 454 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 2: administration a deportation list of thousands of names, including citizens 455 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: that they expect to be denaturalized. People like Mamadoo Tall 456 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 2: and Mahmoud Khalil have been targeted by both of these organizations. 457 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 3: People will be familiar with. I don't know if it's 458 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 3: Bitar or Bitar, but like you probably have seen videos 459 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 3: of them on campus trying to hand pages to people pagers. 460 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, like making light of the pager attack Israel. 461 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 3: Did I mean making a threat? Like sure, Like if 462 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 3: you're going to come onto a campus and make a 463 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,240 Speaker 3: fucking bomb threat and accused someone else of terrorism. I 464 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 3: mean the hypocrisy is kind of the point. 465 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: But or even just like you know, quote unquote celebrating 466 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 2: the deaths of people, right. 467 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, like mocking this attack which killed children, which 468 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 3: you know, crippled people. It's just disgusting. It's like just important. 469 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 3: They seem to get a lot of attention online because 470 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 3: they do the thing where they go up to people 471 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 3: and say deliberately provocative things and then film their reactions. Right, 472 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 3: they're kind of irl trolling. 473 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 2: The past week, ICE actions against students have seemingly accelerated. 474 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 2: Ali Reza Drudi, a doctoral student from Iran studying at 475 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 2: the University of Alabama, was arrested by ICE on March 476 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: twenty fifth in the middle of the night at his 477 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 2: off campus apartment. Drudi's the entry visa expired, but he 478 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 2: was allowed to stay in the States as he still 479 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 2: maintained his student's status. Yeah, it's unknown why exactly he 480 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 2: was targeted. He has no ties to protests or any 481 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 2: notable online footprint. 482 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 3: It could be his ethnic origin, right leg, Yeah, it 483 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 3: could be his name, right yeah. But that we should 484 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 3: explain the status thing a bit more for people who 485 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 3: aren't familiar. So like, sure, your status is when you're 486 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 3: in good standing with the university. So normally that means 487 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 3: you need to be enrolled in twelve credits per You 488 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 3: might be on semesters, you might be on courters. I 489 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 3: don't think it's usually matters you have to there's a 490 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 3: minimum course load. It may be different for different systems. 491 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 3: I don't know. You'd also need to be in good 492 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 3: standing in terms of like not lay on your fees 493 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 3: or your tuition fees, that kind of stuff, right not 494 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 3: in any you haven't been expelled or excluded from the 495 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 3: university for any actions that you've taken, that kind of thing. 496 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 3: It means you are currently a student at the university. Basically, 497 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 3: the only time this normally affects international students that I'm 498 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 3: aware of as a person who now teaches students is 499 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: like they can't drop below a certain courseload, when otherwise 500 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 3: they may wish to drop below a certain courseload to 501 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 3: either focus on they might have like a research position. 502 00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 3: They might be doing other stuff on campus like taing. Right, 503 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 3: Sometimes that ta and counts towards their course, so sometimes 504 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: it doesn't, but it can affect things like that. But 505 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: generally it would be the university that would update that status. Right, 506 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 3: that would notify US Customs and Immigration if somebody fell 507 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 3: out of compliance with that. If I'm hearing right, that 508 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 3: doesn't seem like that's what happened here, right. 509 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 2: No, Simply his entry visa expired, so if he left 510 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 2: the country, he then would have to get another visa 511 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 2: to get back, but he can stay as long as 512 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 2: he still has his valid student status. So not only 513 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: is ICE trying to revoke these like visas, but they're 514 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 2: trying to essentially say that by revoking these visas, they 515 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: are also attempting to strip them of their student status, 516 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 2: which is like a separate like step. These things can 517 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 2: get kind of very very blurry though. 518 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I don't quite know how that works in 519 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 3: terms of like our ICE supposed to be able to 520 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 3: I don't think it hugely matters at this. 521 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: Technically, the State Department does have that ability, but it's 522 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 2: under the same like Foreign policy risk designation, Okay, and 523 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: they'll justify it by saying, well, his visa already expired, 524 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: so we're just removing him because his visa expired, even 525 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 2: though that's not really how this works. 526 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, then they don't have to remove him for that reason. 527 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 3: But yeah, in this case, I guess they've go for 528 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:20,920 Speaker 3: something else. 529 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 2: No, because the University of Alabama did not elect to 530 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 2: rescind his student status. He was a student in good standing, Yeah, 531 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 2: and thus legally allowed in the United States. 532 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,280 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, like everyone else here, he hadn't done anything 533 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 3: that would, under normal circumstances lead him having any interactions 534 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 3: with USCIS. 535 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: Just this last week, I sttained a University of Minnesota 536 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 2: grad student at their off campus housing. The university released 537 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: a statement saying that they had no prior knowledge of 538 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,320 Speaker 2: this incident and had not shared any information with federal authorities. 539 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 2: This person's name is still not released. 540 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 3: Okay. 541 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 2: Last week, a student udent at the Southern Illinois University 542 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: had their visa revoked. The school administration told their college 543 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 2: paper that the university has no role in the visa 544 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: revocation process. The Illinois Governor's office is working with schools 545 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 2: across the state to quote ensure they are being vigilant 546 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,160 Speaker 2: about what's happening on their respective campuses. The Governor's team 547 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: has asked universities to communicate with international students about the 548 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: general resources available to them through the institution. In addition, 549 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: we have suggested that they connect impacted students with legal 550 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: resources that have been in place for several years. According 551 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: to a statement sent to the university paper, The Daily 552 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 2: Egyptian Tina Sickinger, which is a very cool name, the 553 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 2: school's director of International Student and Scholar Services sent an 554 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 2: email to the international student body of Southern Illinois University 555 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 2: advising them to carry photocopies of immigration documents with them 556 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 2: at all times, as well as proof of enrollment and 557 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 2: records of US residences. The email recommended that students quote 558 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: use caution on social media and exercise discretion when participating 559 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 2: in political demonstrations or protests unquote, warning that though protests 560 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 2: should be protected speech quote, such activities can sometimes be 561 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 2: misinterpreted and make carry risks to your immigration status unquote. Unfortunately, 562 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 2: I think this is the university trying to look out 563 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 2: for these students. 564 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the best you could expect from them, really. 565 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 2: And they are providing like legal resources to these students, 566 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: but they're essentially saying like you shouldn't post anything or 567 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 2: do any protests because then ice might come kidnap you. Yeah, 568 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 2: which is just a fucked up situation to be in, 569 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: and like yeah, they don't have like any other ability 570 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: to like stop this right now. I am curious what 571 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 2: Prisker is going to continue to do here though. 572 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, none of what they've said is like wrong, 573 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 3: It's kind of what you can expect from university. The 574 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 3: best you can expect from the university really is like, hey, 575 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 3: we've noticed it's happening. 576 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: So that is the situation as it currently stands. I 577 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 2: do have one final tidbit here just that highlights the 578 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: absurdity of this whole situation. On March twenty fourth, a 579 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 2: lawsuit on behalf of Israeli Columbia students and relatives of 580 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 2: Israeli October seventh victims was filed against Columbia Jewish Voice 581 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 2: for Peace and Students for Justice in Palestine, Columbia University 582 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:29,440 Speaker 2: Apartheid divest and individual Columbia students, including Mahmoud Khalil. The 583 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: lawsuit allege is that these Colombia groups and students are 584 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: the domestic propaganda arm of Hamas, and even claims that 585 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: these groups had advanced notice that the October seventh attack 586 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:42,479 Speaker 2: was going to take place. 587 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 3: Oh, come on. 588 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 2: So the plan was kept secret among Hamas's own political 589 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 2: allies in the region, but they gave an Ivy League 590 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: university in the New York City. 591 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 3: It had to tip off. They just let him know 592 00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 3: what was coming. 593 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:00,480 Speaker 2: Completely absurd. 594 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 3: The absolutely like like the IDF completely failed to see 595 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 3: this coming, right, But they're not the folks at the 596 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,280 Speaker 3: Ivy League universities who were who were ready and waiting. 597 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 2: Hamas didn't tell the who thies, They didn't tell Iran, 598 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 2: they didn't tell Hesbola, but they told student activist groups 599 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 2: in New York City at the Columbia University campus. 600 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely ludicrous. Like I eagerly await this this court case. 601 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 3: I guess to see what evidence they have of this. 602 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 3: The evidence is going to be like someone had a 603 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:33,840 Speaker 3: Palestinian flag. 604 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: Some of the quote unquote evidence that they that they 605 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 2: allege is that some of these like activist accounts had 606 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,279 Speaker 2: a renewed activity in October of twenty twenty three, like 607 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 2: before the attack happened. But this is just a simple coincidence. 608 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 2: Obviously these people did not have a heads up that 609 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 2: the October seventh attack was going to take place. 610 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:56,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 611 00:34:56,160 --> 00:35:00,239 Speaker 2: The lawsuit also argues that protest activity is not First 612 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: Amendment protected speech, but in fact, quote substantial assistance in 613 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 2: the form of propaganda and recruiting services and in coordination 614 00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 2: with a designated foreign terrorist organization, again alleging there's some 615 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 2: kind of communication between Hobmas and student activists in New 616 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:17,439 Speaker 2: York City. 617 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is ludicrous. Like, one of the reasons that 618 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 3: maybe we're seeing this so much over the Palestine advocacy 619 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: is that HAMAS is a listed foreign terrorist organization. Many 620 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 3: other groups and lots of groups in that part of 621 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 3: the world are, But like it's just a bigger stick 622 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,080 Speaker 3: to wave I guess material aid or that no one 623 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 3: has been actually accused of material aid to foreign terrorist 624 00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 3: organization as far as I'm aware, But like that is 625 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 3: kind of the sort of stick that they're waving, right, 626 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 3: that is the thing that they're alleging. 627 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 2: I will end us with just this kind of final note. Now, 628 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 2: while there are little signs that this would happen at 629 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,760 Speaker 2: a scale this large and disfocused under a democratic president, 630 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 2: a degree of consent for this type of targeting was 631 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 2: manufactured the past year as it relates to Palestine protests, 632 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 2: with some liberals and democratic politicians associating activists as pro 633 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 2: hamas terrorists. And this is the consequence of that public 634 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,720 Speaker 2: perception building and the consent being manufactured for that framing. 635 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 2: And now that the even more evil side is in charge, 636 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,080 Speaker 2: they can take that justification and run with it way 637 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,760 Speaker 2: further than what a Joe Biden or a Kamala Harris 638 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 2: would have done. So it is far worse, but it's 639 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 2: not in a political bubble. This has been like a 640 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 2: growing project for the past few years. 641 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,520 Speaker 3: There was no point at which to Biden administration really 642 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,680 Speaker 3: like effusively said, this is protected First Amendment speech. Yeah, 643 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 3: we may not like it, but it is central to 644 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 3: the Bill of Rights. It's central to what America is 645 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 3: supposed to be about. 646 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 2: They never defended the constitutionality of this speech. Yeah, Nor 647 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 2: would they have intervened to stop the deportation of someone 648 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: like Tall if Cornell decided to revoke his status, right right, Yeah, 649 00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,760 Speaker 2: I don't think they buy an administration or a Kamala 650 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: Harris administration would be directed in these these universities to 651 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,520 Speaker 2: take that action themselves, nor would they be I think, 652 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,279 Speaker 2: revoking student visas at skill like this, No, but they 653 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 2: would have let Ice do the stuff that Ice does 654 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 2: if universities themselves elect to remove student visas or unenroll 655 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 2: these students. And like a degree of the complacency here 656 00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 2: is placed on the actual university administrations, the university staff, 657 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 2: who have been vilifying these protesters for the past two years. 658 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean in some cases, right, like I'm 659 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 3: thinking of one of Colombia, Like professors have got away 660 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 3: with things which are absolutely unacceptable and like one hundred 661 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,920 Speaker 3: percent in some violation of your agreement with the university 662 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 3: as a member of the faculty, like doxing your students. Yeah, 663 00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 3: photographing students without their consent, following students around like absolutely unacceptable, 664 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 3: Like in any other context that you would be immediately 665 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,120 Speaker 3: shit canned, Like really, really, the only reason you can 666 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 3: lose ten ure seemingly is being a fucking creep to 667 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 3: students or stealing a lot of money. And like universities 668 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 3: did allow that for more than a year under the 669 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 3: Biden administration, and like we're seeing the consequences of that now. 670 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 2: It's also worth noting that since I've had to quote 671 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: from so many government statements this episode, the Trump admin 672 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 2: is continuing to correlate any expression of sympathy or solidarity 673 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 2: with Palestine as explicit support for Hamas. Basically, anything you 674 00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 2: say that's critical of the Israeli government its actions in 675 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:39,600 Speaker 2: Gaza are being interpreted by the Trump administration as anti 676 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 2: Semitism and support for the October seventh massacre. This is 677 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,719 Speaker 2: a false equivalency. What the government alleges should not be 678 00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 2: automatically taken as the truth. These tactics have been used 679 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: for years to broadly smear pro Palestine activists while also 680 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 2: hurting anti Zionist Jews. And I guess like, finally, we 681 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 2: are not necess necessarily endorsing every single thing that every 682 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: single one of these students has said. We do not 683 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: necessarily agree with the framing of every single sentence that 684 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 2: they have said. 685 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, we don't know everything that they've said. 686 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 2: We can, yeah, exactly. This is like completely separate to that. 687 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't matter, Like we are defending their right 688 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 3: to engage in constitutionally protected to speaking. 689 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 2: Correct no matter what they're saying, no matter if they 690 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 2: have opinions on Hamas, that differ from ours. No matter 691 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 2: what they are saying at a campus protest, it should 692 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,879 Speaker 2: not result in ICE targeting them and hunting them down 693 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 2: and forcing students who attend to sit in protests into 694 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 2: hiding to defend their own rights and to keep their 695 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 2: green cards. This is like a completely absurd and like 696 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 2: blatantly fascist to use the now overused word frankly, but 697 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 2: this is like this is this is what that is. 698 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,280 Speaker 2: If this was happening in China, this was happening in Russia, 699 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: in other countries, people would be very very quick to 700 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: call out. 701 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,880 Speaker 3: I mean, it does happen in Russia, right people, exactly? 702 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,400 Speaker 3: People just yeah, yeah, And the State Department of this 703 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,040 Speaker 3: country has called it out right like it at rightly. 704 00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 3: I don't agree with everything the State Department does, but 705 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,239 Speaker 3: they do agree with him on that, like yeah, And 706 00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 3: I think this is like I know, if you find 707 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,400 Speaker 3: yourself having a discussion about this, I think almost everyone 708 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,960 Speaker 3: in America can find something that they disagree with the 709 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:24,000 Speaker 3: government on or have disagreed with the government on, and 710 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 3: like this hurts every single one of us, right, like 711 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,720 Speaker 3: everyone's right to freedom of speech is challenged. When someone's 712 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 3: right to freedom of speech is challenged, and like, I 713 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 3: think that is the way to approach this. It doesn't 714 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:41,680 Speaker 3: really matter if the people whose speech is being challenged 715 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 3: right now, their speech is if it's odious to us, 716 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 3: if it's something that we don't agree with, Like that 717 00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 3: isn't what's at stake. What's at stake is everyone's right 718 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 3: to say everything without government consequences. 719 00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 2: Well, I think that doesn't for us today. At it 720 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,919 Speaker 2: could happen here. We will continue to report on utar 721 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:03,600 Speaker 2: getting of students, scholars and professors, and immigrants in general 722 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 2: as the Trump administration ramps up its deportation efforts. If 723 00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,040 Speaker 2: you would like to contact us about these topics, we 724 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:16,319 Speaker 2: have an encrypted email address at cool Zone tips at 725 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:19,840 Speaker 2: proton dot me. It is end to end encrypted, so 726 00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 2: if you use another encrypted email service or another proton 727 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,640 Speaker 2: mail account to send the email only, then is it encrypted. 728 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production or cool Zone Media. 729 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 730 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:41,280 Speaker 1: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 731 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,879 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 732 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,280 Speaker 1: now find sources for it could Happen here listed directly 733 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,600 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,