1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:27,450 Speaker 1: Pushkin, we will have a test track and trace operation 2 00:00:27,690 --> 00:00:36,130 Speaker 1: that will be world beating. That's Boris Johnson, the British 3 00:00:36,170 --> 00:00:40,210 Speaker 1: Prime Minister, speaking to Parliament with a typical jingoistic flourish 4 00:00:40,290 --> 00:00:44,210 Speaker 1: in May twenty twenty. The UK, he promised, would have 5 00:00:44,250 --> 00:00:47,850 Speaker 1: a world beating contact tracing system within a few days. 6 00:00:48,730 --> 00:00:52,570 Speaker 1: The first wave of the pandemic was slowly receding, but 7 00:00:52,690 --> 00:00:56,850 Speaker 1: the cost had been brutal. That spring, the country had 8 00:00:56,850 --> 00:01:00,930 Speaker 1: suffered one of the deadliest outbreaks of COVID anywhere in 9 00:01:00,970 --> 00:01:04,610 Speaker 1: the world, and so the British Prime Minister decided to 10 00:01:04,730 --> 00:01:08,090 Speaker 1: cheer up the nation as only he could, by boasting 11 00:01:08,130 --> 00:01:10,930 Speaker 1: of a contact trace system that would be better than 12 00:01:11,010 --> 00:01:16,690 Speaker 1: anything Johnny Foreigner would have. A contact tracing system for 13 00:01:16,770 --> 00:01:20,810 Speaker 1: COVID has three key elements. First, you need to be 14 00:01:20,850 --> 00:01:25,530 Speaker 1: able to identify who's infected and isolate them. Then you 15 00:01:25,570 --> 00:01:30,050 Speaker 1: need to trace the recent contacts of the infected person. Finally, 16 00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:32,610 Speaker 1: you need to be able to persuade those contacts to 17 00:01:32,650 --> 00:01:37,250 Speaker 1: isolate themselves as well to avoid any further spread. It's 18 00:01:37,330 --> 00:01:40,490 Speaker 1: not easy, but if you get it right, you can 19 00:01:40,610 --> 00:01:44,770 Speaker 1: keep the virus contained while allowing everyone else to relax 20 00:01:44,810 --> 00:01:48,050 Speaker 1: a little and go about their lives. Taiwan managed this, 21 00:01:48,490 --> 00:01:53,970 Speaker 1: so did South Korea and Vietnam and Japan. Anyway, the 22 00:01:54,050 --> 00:01:57,530 Speaker 1: UK system didn't need to beat the world, just needed 23 00:01:57,530 --> 00:02:00,970 Speaker 1: to beat the virus. In the summer of twenty twenty, 24 00:02:01,170 --> 00:02:05,810 Speaker 1: there seemed to be every chance of doing that. Infections 25 00:02:05,810 --> 00:02:09,930 Speaker 1: had been beaten back by a long, strict and lockdown. 26 00:02:10,730 --> 00:02:13,730 Speaker 1: Every day there was just a handful of deaths and 27 00:02:13,850 --> 00:02:17,410 Speaker 1: a quarter of a million. Daily tests were revealing just 28 00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:21,810 Speaker 1: a few hundred cases, surely few enough for the contact 29 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:26,850 Speaker 1: tracers to manage. But by September there were alarming signs 30 00:02:26,890 --> 00:02:31,690 Speaker 1: that the virus was coming back. Cases rose. There were 31 00:02:31,730 --> 00:02:35,930 Speaker 1: a thousand a day, then two thousand, then three thousand. 32 00:02:36,370 --> 00:02:40,130 Speaker 1: The testing system was struggling to keep up. More than 33 00:02:40,210 --> 00:02:43,410 Speaker 1: ninety percent of people weren't getting test results back the 34 00:02:43,490 --> 00:02:47,010 Speaker 1: next day. There's not much point in contact tracing if 35 00:02:47,090 --> 00:02:50,210 Speaker 1: it takes days to even figure out who was infected. 36 00:02:51,250 --> 00:02:54,810 Speaker 1: And then on Sunday of the fourth of October, my 37 00:02:54,970 --> 00:02:58,290 Speaker 1: cell phone rang. On the line was a researcher from 38 00:02:58,330 --> 00:03:02,210 Speaker 1: the UK's most influential news program. She told me that 39 00:03:02,330 --> 00:03:05,250 Speaker 1: something very odd had happened and they wanted me to 40 00:03:05,250 --> 00:03:07,130 Speaker 1: figure it out and then come on the show the 41 00:03:07,210 --> 00:03:11,570 Speaker 1: next morning to help them explain it and what exactly 42 00:03:11,610 --> 00:03:17,850 Speaker 1: had happened. Nearly sixteen thousand positive cases had disappeared completely 43 00:03:17,970 --> 00:03:22,370 Speaker 1: from the contact tracing system. Sixteen thousand people who should 44 00:03:22,370 --> 00:03:24,930 Speaker 1: have been warned that they were infected and a danger 45 00:03:24,970 --> 00:03:28,770 Speaker 1: to others. Sixteen thousand cases in which the contact tracers 46 00:03:28,810 --> 00:03:32,090 Speaker 1: should be hurrying to figure out where that infected person went, 47 00:03:32,330 --> 00:03:34,690 Speaker 1: who they met, and who else might be at risk. 48 00:03:35,770 --> 00:03:42,370 Speaker 1: None of that was happening. And why had the cases disappeared? Well, 49 00:03:42,730 --> 00:03:48,890 Speaker 1: this was the real eye opener. Apparently Microsoft Excel had 50 00:03:48,970 --> 00:03:53,930 Speaker 1: run out of numbers. I'm Tim Harford, and you're listening 51 00:03:54,370 --> 00:04:19,530 Speaker 1: to cautionary tales. You cannot see a crow in a 52 00:04:19,610 --> 00:04:24,930 Speaker 1: bowl full of milk. This is Francesco di Marco d'attini. 53 00:04:25,890 --> 00:04:29,650 Speaker 1: He's a textile merchant who lives near Florence in Italy. 54 00:04:30,770 --> 00:04:34,770 Speaker 1: I should probably tell you that courtesy of Iris Orego's 55 00:04:34,770 --> 00:04:39,250 Speaker 1: book The Merchant of Prato, I've taken you back in time. 56 00:04:40,050 --> 00:04:46,930 Speaker 1: It's thirteen ninety six and Dattini is furious you could 57 00:04:46,970 --> 00:04:50,090 Speaker 1: lose your weight from your nose to your mouth. What 58 00:04:50,330 --> 00:04:55,570 Speaker 1: was going on? Well, D'ttini's business associates were bungling the numbers. 59 00:04:56,010 --> 00:04:59,530 Speaker 1: It was a common enough problem for any businessman. At 60 00:04:59,530 --> 00:05:03,930 Speaker 1: the end of the thirteen hundreds, Italian commerce was becoming complicated. 61 00:05:04,530 --> 00:05:08,450 Speaker 1: Merchants were no longer mere traveling salesman able to keep 62 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:11,770 Speaker 1: track of profits by patting their purses. They were in 63 00:05:11,850 --> 00:05:16,970 Speaker 1: charge of complex operations. The Teeney, for example, ordered wool 64 00:05:17,050 --> 00:05:20,530 Speaker 1: from the island of Mayorka two years ago before the 65 00:05:20,570 --> 00:05:24,050 Speaker 1: sheep had even grown. It That wool would eventually be 66 00:05:24,130 --> 00:05:29,530 Speaker 1: processed by numerous subcontractors before becoming beautiful rolls of dyed cloth. 67 00:05:30,250 --> 00:05:37,010 Speaker 1: The supply chain between shepherd and consumer ranged across Barcelona, Pisa, Venice, Valencia, 68 00:05:37,330 --> 00:05:41,090 Speaker 1: North Africa, even back to Mayorka itself. It would be 69 00:05:41,130 --> 00:05:44,730 Speaker 1: four years between the initial order of wool and the 70 00:05:44,810 --> 00:05:49,530 Speaker 1: final sale of cloth. No wonder, the Teeney insisted on 71 00:05:49,730 --> 00:05:54,170 Speaker 1: absolute clarity both about where the product was at any 72 00:05:54,210 --> 00:06:01,130 Speaker 1: moment and his money. How did he manage this simple spreadsheets? 73 00:06:03,730 --> 00:06:07,290 Speaker 1: The Teeny, of course, did not use Microsoft Excel back 74 00:06:07,330 --> 00:06:12,450 Speaker 1: in thirteen ninety six, but he did use its direct predecessor, 75 00:06:12,890 --> 00:06:16,130 Speaker 1: sheets of paper laid out according to the system of 76 00:06:16,250 --> 00:06:20,050 Speaker 1: double entry book keeping otherwise known as book keeping a 77 00:06:20,170 --> 00:06:27,130 Speaker 1: la vanetziana. In double entry book keeping, every entry is 78 00:06:27,170 --> 00:06:32,090 Speaker 1: made twice the clues in the name. For example, if 79 00:06:32,090 --> 00:06:35,850 Speaker 1: you spend a hundred florins on wool, that's recorded as 80 00:06:35,850 --> 00:06:38,490 Speaker 1: a credit of a hundred florins in your cash account 81 00:06:39,050 --> 00:06:41,610 Speaker 1: and the debit of a hundred florins worth of wool 82 00:06:42,130 --> 00:06:47,010 Speaker 1: in your assets account. This extra effort makes it much 83 00:06:47,090 --> 00:06:50,610 Speaker 1: easier to detect if a mistake has been made, the 84 00:06:50,650 --> 00:06:56,170 Speaker 1: books won't balance. Double entry bookkeeping became an essential method 85 00:06:56,210 --> 00:07:00,410 Speaker 1: for keeping track of who, of what to whom, foreign 86 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:07,330 Speaker 1: exchange transactions, profits, losses, everything. It helped merchants such as 87 00:07:07,370 --> 00:07:13,090 Speaker 1: deteining ensure that, no matter how incompetent their associates, nothing 88 00:07:13,970 --> 00:07:18,610 Speaker 1: was lost. A century later, the master of double entry 89 00:07:18,610 --> 00:07:23,970 Speaker 1: bookkeeping was a man named Luca Paccioli. He was a 90 00:07:24,010 --> 00:07:27,930 Speaker 1: serious mathematician, a friend of Leonardo da Vinci, but he's 91 00:07:27,930 --> 00:07:31,970 Speaker 1: best known today as the most famous accountant who ever lived. 92 00:07:32,970 --> 00:07:35,930 Speaker 1: He literally wrote the book on the double entry method 93 00:07:36,330 --> 00:07:41,410 Speaker 1: back in fourteen ninety four. Paccioli once advised, if you 94 00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:44,890 Speaker 1: cannot be a good accountant, you will grope your way 95 00:07:44,970 --> 00:07:48,730 Speaker 1: forward like a blind man, and may meet great losses. 96 00:07:50,210 --> 00:07:53,810 Speaker 1: If you can't keep your spreadsheets straight, you may meet 97 00:07:53,850 --> 00:08:00,450 Speaker 1: great losses. Remember that. Let's jump forward nearly five hundred 98 00:08:00,530 --> 00:08:05,610 Speaker 1: years to nineteen seventy eight. We're at Harvard Business School 99 00:08:06,130 --> 00:08:10,090 Speaker 1: and a student named Dan Bricklin is sitting in classroom 100 00:08:10,090 --> 00:08:13,370 Speaker 1: watching his accounting professor filling in rows and columns on 101 00:08:13,410 --> 00:08:17,250 Speaker 1: the blackboard. The professor makes a change and then works 102 00:08:17,290 --> 00:08:21,490 Speaker 1: across and down the grid, erasing and rewriting other numbers 103 00:08:21,530 --> 00:08:25,850 Speaker 1: to make everything add up. This erasing and rewriting is 104 00:08:25,890 --> 00:08:29,970 Speaker 1: happening every day, millions of times a day, all over 105 00:08:30,010 --> 00:08:33,570 Speaker 1: the world, as accounting clerks adjust the entries in what 106 00:08:33,610 --> 00:08:38,250 Speaker 1: they call their spreadsheets, big sheets of paper spread across 107 00:08:38,330 --> 00:08:42,370 Speaker 1: two pages of an accounting ledger. Adjustments take a lot 108 00:08:42,410 --> 00:08:47,170 Speaker 1: of work. But Dan Bricklin was a computer geek, a 109 00:08:47,170 --> 00:08:51,730 Speaker 1: former programmer, who immediately thought, I can do this on 110 00:08:51,770 --> 00:08:54,810 Speaker 1: a computer. You would put a number in and hit return, 111 00:08:55,010 --> 00:08:57,770 Speaker 1: and everything would recalculate, and you could watch it. You 112 00:08:57,810 --> 00:09:00,690 Speaker 1: could watch the number change. Bomb bomb bomb, It made 113 00:09:00,690 --> 00:09:08,770 Speaker 1: a sound. I had a real prototype. The rest is history. 114 00:09:10,610 --> 00:09:15,610 Speaker 1: Bricklin and a friend called their spreadsheet program VisiCalc. It 115 00:09:15,730 --> 00:09:19,090 Speaker 1: went on sale on the seventeenth of October nineteen seventy nine. 116 00:09:19,570 --> 00:09:23,250 Speaker 1: It was a smash hit, soon followed by Lotus one, 117 00:09:23,330 --> 00:09:28,530 Speaker 1: two three, and then in due course by Microsoft Excel itself. 118 00:09:30,250 --> 00:09:36,130 Speaker 1: For accountance, digital spreadsheets were revolutionary, replacing hours of painstaking 119 00:09:36,170 --> 00:09:40,530 Speaker 1: work with a tap on a keyboard. But some things 120 00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:45,810 Speaker 1: did not change. Accountants still had their professional training and 121 00:09:45,890 --> 00:09:50,170 Speaker 1: their double entry system. But for the rest of us, well, 122 00:09:50,970 --> 00:09:56,010 Speaker 1: Excel became ubiquitous, an easily accessible tool, a flexible tool 123 00:09:56,330 --> 00:10:00,210 Speaker 1: like a Swiss Army penknife, sitting in your digital back pocket. 124 00:10:01,090 --> 00:10:05,490 Speaker 1: Any idiot could use it, and we did. Oh goodness me, 125 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:16,450 Speaker 1: we did. Nobody really knows what happened to the fifteen thousand, 126 00:10:16,650 --> 00:10:20,850 Speaker 1: eight hundred and forty one positive COVID cases that disappeared 127 00:10:20,850 --> 00:10:25,650 Speaker 1: from the spreadsheet. Public Health England, a government agency responsible 128 00:10:25,650 --> 00:10:29,530 Speaker 1: for the process, hasn't published anything very informative on the issue. 129 00:10:30,130 --> 00:10:33,810 Speaker 1: I asked them about it. The suggestion that any cases 130 00:10:33,850 --> 00:10:38,410 Speaker 1: were lost is simply incorrect. Oh, no cases were missed. 131 00:10:38,570 --> 00:10:41,850 Speaker 1: There was a delay in referring cases for contact tracing 132 00:10:41,970 --> 00:10:46,050 Speaker 1: and reporting them in the national figures. That delay was 133 00:10:46,090 --> 00:10:49,930 Speaker 1: often four or five days. But experts will tell you 134 00:10:50,050 --> 00:10:53,530 Speaker 1: that you really need to track contacts within forty eight hours. 135 00:10:53,970 --> 00:10:59,970 Speaker 1: A five day delay renders the test results almost useless. Look, guys, 136 00:11:00,370 --> 00:11:03,370 Speaker 1: if you lose the positive cases for four or five days, 137 00:11:04,210 --> 00:11:11,210 Speaker 1: you lose them. But how did they lose them? Somewhere? Somehow? 138 00:11:12,490 --> 00:11:16,450 Speaker 1: Public Health England had used the wrong Excel file format 139 00:11:17,290 --> 00:11:23,490 Speaker 1: XLS rather than the more recent XLSX and XLS spreadsheets 140 00:11:23,650 --> 00:11:26,890 Speaker 1: simply don't have that many rows to to the power 141 00:11:26,890 --> 00:11:31,210 Speaker 1: of sixteen about sixty four thousand. That meant that during 142 00:11:31,290 --> 00:11:35,530 Speaker 1: some automated process cases had vanished off the bottom of 143 00:11:35,530 --> 00:11:41,410 Speaker 1: the spreadsheet and nobody had noticed. The idea of simply 144 00:11:41,530 --> 00:11:44,490 Speaker 1: running out of space to put the numbers was rather amusing. 145 00:11:45,050 --> 00:11:48,490 Speaker 1: The Fact that Microsoft was never anyone's idea of cool 146 00:11:48,850 --> 00:11:52,530 Speaker 1: simply added to the hilarity. Do you suffer from having 147 00:11:52,530 --> 00:11:56,250 Speaker 1: to organize and analyze a small set of numbers? Is 148 00:11:56,290 --> 00:11:59,650 Speaker 1: the undue function on a calculator frustrating the underpowered for 149 00:11:59,730 --> 00:12:04,130 Speaker 1: your calculations needs? Do you want to dabble in recreational mathematics, 150 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:09,850 Speaker 1: then spreadsheets maybe for you. That's a satirical advert from 151 00:12:09,890 --> 00:12:14,170 Speaker 1: the comedy and mathematics YouTube channel Stand Up Maths. Please 152 00:12:14,210 --> 00:12:17,170 Speaker 1: speak to your database developer before deciding if spreadsheets is 153 00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:20,490 Speaker 1: right for you. Common side effects include accidentally sorting some 154 00:12:20,730 --> 00:12:23,530 Speaker 1: but not all of the data, slight cell loss when 155 00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:28,850 Speaker 1: selecting numbers, hashtag name, question mark, losing key medical data 156 00:12:28,930 --> 00:12:33,370 Speaker 1: during a pandemic and endangering lives, and being fired. Spreadsheet 157 00:12:33,450 --> 00:12:36,570 Speaker 1: is intended for short term use only. Stop using spreadsheets 158 00:12:36,570 --> 00:12:38,490 Speaker 1: if you find yourself in charge of a government database 159 00:12:38,530 --> 00:12:42,290 Speaker 1: with life and death ramifications. Spreadsheets from the makers of 160 00:12:42,370 --> 00:12:46,730 Speaker 1: word art. A few weeks after the data loss scandal, 161 00:12:47,130 --> 00:12:50,730 Speaker 1: by a strange twist of fate, I found myself able 162 00:12:50,730 --> 00:12:56,010 Speaker 1: to ask Bill Gates himself about what had happened. Bill 163 00:12:56,050 --> 00:12:59,210 Speaker 1: Gates no longer runs Microsoft, and I was interviewing him 164 00:12:59,250 --> 00:13:03,010 Speaker 1: about vaccines for a BBC program called How to Vaccinate 165 00:13:03,050 --> 00:13:05,650 Speaker 1: the World, but the opportunity to have a bit of 166 00:13:05,690 --> 00:13:09,530 Speaker 1: fun quizzing him about XLS and xlsx it's too good 167 00:13:09,530 --> 00:13:13,930 Speaker 1: to miss. I expressed the question in the nerdiest way possible, 168 00:13:14,450 --> 00:13:17,850 Speaker 1: and Gates's response was so straight laced I had to 169 00:13:17,890 --> 00:13:22,610 Speaker 1: smile to myself. Yeah, I guess the older format. You know, 170 00:13:22,650 --> 00:13:25,450 Speaker 1: they overran the sixty four thousand limit, which is not 171 00:13:26,010 --> 00:13:31,290 Speaker 1: there in the new format, So you know, it's good 172 00:13:31,330 --> 00:13:34,610 Speaker 1: to have people double check things, and I, you know, 173 00:13:34,650 --> 00:13:39,290 Speaker 1: I'm sorry that happened. Exactly how the outdated XLS format 174 00:13:39,330 --> 00:13:42,930 Speaker 1: came to be used is unclear. Public Health England sent 175 00:13:42,970 --> 00:13:46,530 Speaker 1: me an explanation, but it was rather vague. I didn't 176 00:13:46,570 --> 00:13:48,970 Speaker 1: understand it, so I showed it to some members of 177 00:13:49,410 --> 00:13:53,570 Speaker 1: use Brig, the European Spreadsheet Risks Group. They spend their 178 00:13:53,610 --> 00:13:57,690 Speaker 1: lives analyzing what happens when spreadsheets go rogue. They're my 179 00:13:57,850 --> 00:14:01,650 Speaker 1: kind of people. But they didn't understand what Public Health 180 00:14:01,650 --> 00:14:04,730 Speaker 1: England had told me either. It was all a little 181 00:14:04,850 --> 00:14:09,170 Speaker 1: light on detail. The basic problem was that whatever like 182 00:14:09,290 --> 00:14:12,370 Speaker 1: Health England had done wrong, they didn't have the right 183 00:14:12,450 --> 00:14:16,850 Speaker 1: checks and controls to flag up problems. But I can 184 00:14:16,890 --> 00:14:21,050 Speaker 1: just imagine what the merchant of Prato, Francesco DiMarco D'ttini, 185 00:14:21,210 --> 00:14:23,890 Speaker 1: might have said. You could lose your way from your 186 00:14:23,930 --> 00:14:31,130 Speaker 1: nose to your mouth. We'll explore how Excel became so 187 00:14:31,490 --> 00:14:40,050 Speaker 1: error prone after this message. Doctor Felina Herman's is a 188 00:14:40,050 --> 00:14:44,730 Speaker 1: researcher who studies spreadsheets. A few years ago, she realized 189 00:14:44,770 --> 00:14:47,370 Speaker 1: that there was a wonderful source of spreadsheets that she 190 00:14:47,410 --> 00:14:51,290 Speaker 1: could study in their natural habitat. That source was a 191 00:14:51,370 --> 00:14:56,770 Speaker 1: bankrupt energy company called Enron. Enron used to be huge, 192 00:14:57,050 --> 00:15:01,490 Speaker 1: but two decades ago it collapsed and various Enron executives 193 00:15:01,530 --> 00:15:06,570 Speaker 1: were convicted of financial crimes. Regulators extracted a large digital 194 00:15:06,650 --> 00:15:10,250 Speaker 1: pile of half a million emails from and run servers, 195 00:15:10,250 --> 00:15:15,930 Speaker 1: and those emails are publicly available. Importantly, for doctor Herman's, 196 00:15:16,130 --> 00:15:22,290 Speaker 1: thousands of those emails had spreadsheets attached. She started digging 197 00:15:22,290 --> 00:15:26,530 Speaker 1: through them. Looking at nearly ten thousand spreadsheets with calculations 198 00:15:26,570 --> 00:15:29,210 Speaker 1: in them, she found that a quarter of them had 199 00:15:29,250 --> 00:15:34,410 Speaker 1: at least one obvious error. The errors even seemed to multiply. 200 00:15:35,010 --> 00:15:38,810 Speaker 1: If a spreadsheet had any mistakes at all, on average, 201 00:15:38,930 --> 00:15:43,690 Speaker 1: it contained more than seven hundred and fifty How can 202 00:15:43,730 --> 00:15:47,650 Speaker 1: a spreadsheet acquire so many errors? I asked my friend 203 00:15:47,730 --> 00:15:50,850 Speaker 1: Matt Parker, the man who literally wrote the book about 204 00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:55,010 Speaker 1: mathematical mishaps and their consequences, a book with a delightful 205 00:15:55,050 --> 00:16:00,410 Speaker 1: title Humble Pie Imagine Cautionary Tales, only with more jokes 206 00:16:00,490 --> 00:16:05,570 Speaker 1: and more equations. One spreadsheet problem is simple human error. 207 00:16:06,010 --> 00:16:08,970 Speaker 1: For example, the time when candidates for a job in 208 00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:13,250 Speaker 1: policing were listed alongside a column containing their scores on 209 00:16:13,290 --> 00:16:17,650 Speaker 1: a test. When one column was resorted and the adjacent 210 00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:23,250 Speaker 1: one was not, the test scores were effectively scrambled all 211 00:16:23,290 --> 00:16:27,170 Speaker 1: the time that the investment bank JP Morgan lost six 212 00:16:27,250 --> 00:16:30,930 Speaker 1: billion dollars. And when I say lost, I mean they 213 00:16:31,010 --> 00:16:33,530 Speaker 1: lost the money, not that they misplaced it for five days. 214 00:16:34,930 --> 00:16:38,730 Speaker 1: They lost this six billion dollars after several spreadsheet errors, 215 00:16:39,130 --> 00:16:41,970 Speaker 1: notably one in which a risk indicator in a spreadsheet 216 00:16:42,210 --> 00:16:45,770 Speaker 1: was being divided not by an average of two numbers 217 00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:48,770 Speaker 1: but by their sum. That made the risks look half 218 00:16:48,810 --> 00:16:52,450 Speaker 1: as big as they should have done. But Excel is 219 00:16:52,490 --> 00:16:55,650 Speaker 1: happy to introduce errors without any help from US humans. 220 00:16:56,730 --> 00:16:59,570 Speaker 1: Matt Parker told me that one common set of problems 221 00:16:59,970 --> 00:17:05,650 Speaker 1: is produced by the auto correct function. Excel loves to autocorrect. 222 00:17:06,490 --> 00:17:10,050 Speaker 1: Type in an international phone number, and Excel will strip 223 00:17:10,090 --> 00:17:14,330 Speaker 1: off the leading zeros. They're mathematically redundant, but if you 224 00:17:14,370 --> 00:17:16,690 Speaker 1: want to make a phone call, you'll find that they're 225 00:17:16,730 --> 00:17:20,850 Speaker 1: not redundant at all. Or if instead you type in 226 00:17:20,890 --> 00:17:25,570 Speaker 1: a twenty digit serial number, Xcel will decide those twenty 227 00:17:25,610 --> 00:17:29,410 Speaker 1: digits are a huge quantity and round them off, turning 228 00:17:29,410 --> 00:17:34,130 Speaker 1: the last few digits into zeros. If you're a genetics 229 00:17:34,130 --> 00:17:36,730 Speaker 1: researcher typing in the name of a gene such as 230 00:17:37,130 --> 00:17:40,890 Speaker 1: march f one or sept in one are generally abbreviated 231 00:17:40,970 --> 00:17:46,090 Speaker 1: to march one or sept one. Well, you can imagine 232 00:17:46,130 --> 00:17:49,610 Speaker 1: what Xcel does with them. It turns those gene names 233 00:17:49,690 --> 00:17:56,050 Speaker 1: into dates, and one study estimated that twenty percent of 234 00:17:56,170 --> 00:18:03,970 Speaker 1: all genetics papers had errors caused by Xcel's autocorrection. Microsoft's 235 00:18:04,010 --> 00:18:08,290 Speaker 1: response to the genes problem is that Xcel's default settings 236 00:18:08,290 --> 00:18:10,770 Speaker 1: are intended to work in most day to day scenarios, 237 00:18:10,970 --> 00:18:14,970 Speaker 1: which is the polite way of saying, guys, Excel was 238 00:18:15,010 --> 00:18:20,250 Speaker 1: designed for accountants, not genetics researchers. But it's understandable that 239 00:18:20,330 --> 00:18:24,130 Speaker 1: scientists picked up Excel and started to use it. It's 240 00:18:24,250 --> 00:18:29,010 Speaker 1: right there on every computer. It's powerful, it's flexible, it's ubiquitous. 241 00:18:30,250 --> 00:18:33,010 Speaker 1: The problem with ubiquitous tools is that we tend to 242 00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:35,850 Speaker 1: use them even when they aren't the right tool for 243 00:18:35,890 --> 00:18:38,690 Speaker 1: the job, even when we don't really know what we're doing. 244 00:18:39,570 --> 00:18:42,690 Speaker 1: Come to think of it, especially when we don't know 245 00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:46,930 Speaker 1: what we're doing. I said earlier that Microsoft Excel is 246 00:18:46,970 --> 00:18:50,370 Speaker 1: like a Swiss army knife. As a boy, I was 247 00:18:50,410 --> 00:18:55,250 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinated by these beautiful little red multi tools, a 248 00:18:55,410 --> 00:18:58,570 Speaker 1: pen knife with a can opener and three kinds of screwdriver, 249 00:18:58,650 --> 00:19:00,610 Speaker 1: and a bottle opener, and a wire stripper and a 250 00:19:00,650 --> 00:19:03,930 Speaker 1: tiny saw and some tweezers and even a toothpick. What 251 00:19:04,050 --> 00:19:08,570 Speaker 1: a world of miracles and wonders. But as an adult 252 00:19:08,610 --> 00:19:12,290 Speaker 1: Gig struggles to put up a bookshelf straight even. I've 253 00:19:12,410 --> 00:19:18,570 Speaker 1: noticed something about people with practical skills, people such as plumbers, electricians, 254 00:19:18,610 --> 00:19:23,250 Speaker 1: and carpenters. They don't use a Swiss army knife. They 255 00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:28,650 Speaker 1: bring a toolkit with professional tools. Microsoft Excel is a 256 00:19:28,650 --> 00:19:33,850 Speaker 1: professional enough tool if you're an accountant. Excel wasn't designed 257 00:19:33,850 --> 00:19:37,370 Speaker 1: to run the entire contact tracing infrastructure of a wants 258 00:19:37,450 --> 00:19:40,330 Speaker 1: proud nation any more than a Swiss army knife was 259 00:19:40,370 --> 00:19:42,650 Speaker 1: designed to help you put up a set of shelves. 260 00:19:43,250 --> 00:19:46,330 Speaker 1: The experts I've spoken to have different views about the 261 00:19:46,450 --> 00:19:49,850 Speaker 1: deeper problem here. Some of them reckon that using Excel 262 00:19:49,930 --> 00:19:53,810 Speaker 1: itself for contact tracing was the original sin, that a 263 00:19:53,850 --> 00:19:57,130 Speaker 1: different sort of software tool, a database, would have been 264 00:19:57,210 --> 00:20:01,410 Speaker 1: much more appropriate. Others say no, if you use Excel 265 00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:05,530 Speaker 1: professionally with proper controls, it can easily handle the task 266 00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:08,770 Speaker 1: of contact tracing. And a well designed database would have 267 00:20:08,810 --> 00:20:14,010 Speaker 1: taken time to implement. XCEL was right there. Professional carpenters 268 00:20:14,090 --> 00:20:16,890 Speaker 1: don't use a Swiss army knife. But if the shelves 269 00:20:16,930 --> 00:20:18,890 Speaker 1: need to be put up immediately and you don't have 270 00:20:18,930 --> 00:20:22,170 Speaker 1: a toolbox, why not give the Swiss army knife a try. 271 00:20:22,730 --> 00:20:25,690 Speaker 1: You just have to be aware of its limitations and 272 00:20:25,810 --> 00:20:28,730 Speaker 1: perhaps to redo the job properly when you have the 273 00:20:28,770 --> 00:20:35,290 Speaker 1: tools to do so. Not long ago, I asked folks 274 00:20:35,330 --> 00:20:38,490 Speaker 1: on Twitter if they could recommend some good books about 275 00:20:38,530 --> 00:20:44,090 Speaker 1: the eradication of smallpox. Most people instead recommended books about 276 00:20:44,250 --> 00:20:48,170 Speaker 1: Edward Jenna back in seventeen ninety six, when he first 277 00:20:48,210 --> 00:20:54,250 Speaker 1: demonstrated an effective smallpox vaccine. That's revealing because I'd asked 278 00:20:54,370 --> 00:20:58,650 Speaker 1: about the eradication of smallpox, and smallpox wasn't eradicated in 279 00:20:58,770 --> 00:21:04,210 Speaker 1: seventeen ninety six, not even close. And while eradication would 280 00:21:04,210 --> 00:21:08,330 Speaker 1: have been impossible without a highly effective vaccine, it also 281 00:21:08,450 --> 00:21:13,250 Speaker 1: required highly effective use of information, or, as the merchant 282 00:21:13,290 --> 00:21:17,090 Speaker 1: Francesco di Marco d'atini might have said, it required not 283 00:21:17,370 --> 00:21:22,730 Speaker 1: losing your way from your nose to your mouth. Unlike COVID, 284 00:21:23,050 --> 00:21:27,370 Speaker 1: smallpox infections are easy to detect. For the awful reason 285 00:21:27,450 --> 00:21:30,730 Speaker 1: that smallpox does so much damage to the human body. 286 00:21:31,170 --> 00:21:34,290 Speaker 1: Bill Fagy, one of the leaders of the fight against smallpox, 287 00:21:34,650 --> 00:21:38,170 Speaker 1: says that you can even follow your nose. On at 288 00:21:38,210 --> 00:21:42,690 Speaker 1: least two occasions, smell alone alerted me to the presence 289 00:21:42,690 --> 00:21:46,290 Speaker 1: of small pox. As I walked down a hospital hallway 290 00:21:46,370 --> 00:21:50,930 Speaker 1: in India, the dead animal odor stopped me in my tracks. 291 00:21:51,930 --> 00:21:57,370 Speaker 1: Following the smell, I located a smallpox patient. Another time, 292 00:21:57,770 --> 00:22:00,210 Speaker 1: as I walked down an alley in an urban slim 293 00:22:00,210 --> 00:22:05,250 Speaker 1: in Pakistan, the same smell hit me. There are competing 294 00:22:05,330 --> 00:22:10,090 Speaker 1: smells in such places, but again one smells stood out. 295 00:22:11,450 --> 00:22:19,690 Speaker 1: Knocking on doors, I found two siblings with smallpox. Ever 296 00:22:19,730 --> 00:22:24,010 Speaker 1: since the vaccine for smallpox was demonstrated in seventeen ninety six, 297 00:22:24,570 --> 00:22:29,010 Speaker 1: people dreamed of eradicating the disease, but those dreams kept 298 00:22:29,130 --> 00:22:33,250 Speaker 1: failing to come true. The vaccinators would never manage to 299 00:22:33,290 --> 00:22:37,930 Speaker 1: reach quite enough people in poorer countries, smallpox would linger 300 00:22:38,010 --> 00:22:42,770 Speaker 1: in isolated rural communities or neglected slums. A generation of 301 00:22:42,850 --> 00:22:46,690 Speaker 1: babies would be borne without any immunity, and soon enough 302 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:51,090 Speaker 1: the disease would be back. In the mid nineteen sixties, 303 00:22:51,490 --> 00:22:56,730 Speaker 1: smallpox was still killing two million people a year. This 304 00:22:56,810 --> 00:23:00,090 Speaker 1: was the same number as died of COVID. In twenty twenty, 305 00:23:00,930 --> 00:23:04,770 Speaker 1: the World Health Organization announced that it would redouble its 306 00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:07,690 Speaker 1: efforts to eradicate the disease, and it planned to do 307 00:23:07,810 --> 00:23:12,490 Speaker 1: so by intensifying the mass vaccination campaign. Bill Fegi was 308 00:23:12,610 --> 00:23:16,450 Speaker 1: part of those efforts to fight smallpox. Fegi would show 309 00:23:16,530 --> 00:23:19,610 Speaker 1: up in a village in eastern Nigeria, all six foot 310 00:23:19,690 --> 00:23:22,250 Speaker 1: seven of him, and the local elders would put out 311 00:23:22,250 --> 00:23:26,530 Speaker 1: the word come and see the tallest man in the world, 312 00:23:27,130 --> 00:23:31,210 Speaker 1: and people would come, and Bill Fegy reckons he wants vaccinated. 313 00:23:31,330 --> 00:23:36,210 Speaker 1: Eleven thousand, six hundred people in a single day. It 314 00:23:36,290 --> 00:23:42,650 Speaker 1: wasn't enough. Still, The outbreaks came late in nineteen sixty six. 315 00:23:43,130 --> 00:23:46,890 Speaker 1: Vegi received a radio message. This is a message for 316 00:23:46,970 --> 00:23:52,210 Speaker 1: doctor Fagi, A message for doctor Segy Veggie speaking what 317 00:23:52,450 --> 00:23:58,250 Speaker 1: is it? We'll hear that message and why information matters 318 00:23:58,250 --> 00:24:10,770 Speaker 1: if you want to eradicate smallpox. After the break, This 319 00:24:10,930 --> 00:24:14,290 Speaker 1: is a message for doctor Pegi. A message for doctor 320 00:24:14,410 --> 00:24:19,850 Speaker 1: Segy Veggie speaking what is it? The radio operator told 321 00:24:19,890 --> 00:24:22,690 Speaker 1: doctor Bill Fegi that there had been an outbreak of 322 00:24:22,730 --> 00:24:26,250 Speaker 1: smallpox in a village about one hundred miles away. He 323 00:24:26,370 --> 00:24:30,290 Speaker 1: traveled there, found five cases and vaccinated everyone they'd been 324 00:24:30,330 --> 00:24:33,730 Speaker 1: in contact with. The handy thing about the smallpox vaccine 325 00:24:34,090 --> 00:24:37,250 Speaker 1: is that it often still works even if you vaccinate 326 00:24:37,330 --> 00:24:40,810 Speaker 1: someone a few days after they've been exposed to the virus. 327 00:24:41,810 --> 00:24:45,530 Speaker 1: Standard practice then would be to vaccinate everyone for miles around, 328 00:24:45,890 --> 00:24:49,370 Speaker 1: but Vega's team just didn't have enough doses with them, 329 00:24:49,450 --> 00:24:52,770 Speaker 1: so instead he used radio and the local network of 330 00:24:52,810 --> 00:24:56,250 Speaker 1: missionaries to try to work out where to use the vaccine. 331 00:24:56,930 --> 00:25:00,170 Speaker 1: Every evening at seven o'clock they'd switch on the radio 332 00:25:00,690 --> 00:25:04,770 Speaker 1: and put the word out, this is doctor Bill Fegy 333 00:25:04,850 --> 00:25:12,250 Speaker 1: speaking here. Doctor Pegi, which send out and we have 334 00:25:12,490 --> 00:25:17,970 Speaker 1: all the information you requested. That's amazing news. So are 335 00:25:18,050 --> 00:25:23,650 Speaker 1: there any new cases? Cases were identified in just four 336 00:25:23,890 --> 00:25:27,210 Speaker 1: more villages. Vega and his team quickly raced to the 337 00:25:27,290 --> 00:25:30,650 Speaker 1: scene and administered the vaccine. The hope was that the 338 00:25:30,730 --> 00:25:34,250 Speaker 1: vaccines would act like a firebreak the disease wouldn't find 339 00:25:34,290 --> 00:25:39,450 Speaker 1: anyone to spread to, and it worked. Repeating the tactic, 340 00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:45,250 Speaker 1: Vega's team eliminated smallpox from eastern Nigeria within six months, 341 00:25:45,810 --> 00:25:49,010 Speaker 1: just in time for the catastrophic civil war of nineteen 342 00:25:49,090 --> 00:25:53,570 Speaker 1: sixty seven. Despite the chaos and enormous bloodshed of that war, 343 00:25:54,410 --> 00:26:00,130 Speaker 1: smallpox did not return. The secret to the success was 344 00:26:00,170 --> 00:26:03,010 Speaker 1: to worry less about the blanket coverage that was never 345 00:26:03,290 --> 00:26:07,770 Speaker 1: quite good enough, and worry more about quickly finding exactly 346 00:26:07,850 --> 00:26:13,610 Speaker 1: where each outbreak was. Eradication was all about information, and 347 00:26:13,770 --> 00:26:18,090 Speaker 1: up until that point information had been very patchy. As 348 00:26:18,130 --> 00:26:21,810 Speaker 1: the WHO teams looked more closely, they realized they were 349 00:26:21,890 --> 00:26:25,690 Speaker 1: missing the vast majority of the cases. Instead of one 350 00:26:25,770 --> 00:26:29,250 Speaker 1: hundred thousand cases a year around the world, there were 351 00:26:29,290 --> 00:26:34,450 Speaker 1: ten million. Public health workers could beat smallpox by figuring 352 00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:38,850 Speaker 1: out quickly where the outbreaks were and swiftly controlling the situation, 353 00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:44,690 Speaker 1: isolating people with the disease and vaccinating their contacts. The 354 00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:48,770 Speaker 1: strategy became known as a ring vaccination, and it has 355 00:26:48,850 --> 00:26:52,970 Speaker 1: a lot in common with COVID contact tracing. In both cases, 356 00:26:53,250 --> 00:26:56,690 Speaker 1: you need to rapidly isolate infected people and find their 357 00:26:56,770 --> 00:27:02,170 Speaker 1: recent contacts. Ring vaccination worked, and it didn't take long. 358 00:27:03,650 --> 00:27:06,890 Speaker 1: The last gasp of smallpox in the wild was in 359 00:27:07,010 --> 00:27:13,330 Speaker 1: Somalia late in nineteen seventy seven. Ali Mayaw Marlin, twenty 360 00:27:13,370 --> 00:27:17,210 Speaker 1: three years old, a cook and part time vaccinator, had 361 00:27:17,690 --> 00:27:23,330 Speaker 1: astonishingly not been vaccinated himself. One day, he was asked 362 00:27:23,410 --> 00:27:26,290 Speaker 1: for directions to the local hospital by a man driving 363 00:27:26,290 --> 00:27:30,290 Speaker 1: a jeep with two sick children in the back. Soon enough, 364 00:27:30,810 --> 00:27:34,930 Speaker 1: he started to feel unwell. He was wrongly diagnosed first 365 00:27:35,050 --> 00:27:39,210 Speaker 1: with malaria and then with chicken pox. He wasn't isolated 366 00:27:39,290 --> 00:27:42,570 Speaker 1: or treated until a friend of his, a nurse, made 367 00:27:42,610 --> 00:27:49,090 Speaker 1: the correct diagnosis. Ali had the awful smallpox. His ninety 368 00:27:49,170 --> 00:27:54,330 Speaker 1: one friends and contacts were isolated and vaccinated. None of 369 00:27:54,370 --> 00:28:00,330 Speaker 1: them contracted the disease. Ali himself recovered and devoted his 370 00:28:00,450 --> 00:28:04,370 Speaker 1: life to the fight against polio. I tell them how 371 00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:06,970 Speaker 1: important these vaccines are. I tell them not to do 372 00:28:07,090 --> 00:28:12,770 Speaker 1: something foolish like me. And the vaccines were important, essential 373 00:28:12,970 --> 00:28:18,290 Speaker 1: in fact, but so was quickly identifying and tracing contacts 374 00:28:18,370 --> 00:28:24,410 Speaker 1: at risk. Smallpox had survived nearly two centuries of vaccination, 375 00:28:25,730 --> 00:28:29,170 Speaker 1: but it couldn't survive a well run system that targeted 376 00:28:29,210 --> 00:28:34,170 Speaker 1: outbreaks and tracked potential cases with hindsight. It seems so 377 00:28:34,330 --> 00:28:37,890 Speaker 1: easy and simple in a way it was, But of 378 00:28:38,010 --> 00:28:41,170 Speaker 1: course keeping track of things is harder than it might 379 00:28:41,370 --> 00:28:44,970 Speaker 1: first appear. Francesco di Marco D'ttini could have told you 380 00:28:45,050 --> 00:28:52,250 Speaker 1: that so could Bill Gates. If you really want proof 381 00:28:52,370 --> 00:28:56,570 Speaker 1: that contact tracing works, how would you get it? If 382 00:28:56,650 --> 00:29:00,570 Speaker 1: you were a mad scientist, praised with power and unchained 383 00:29:00,650 --> 00:29:04,970 Speaker 1: by conventional ethics, You'd do an experiment. You'd hack into 384 00:29:05,010 --> 00:29:08,290 Speaker 1: a country's contact tracing system. Then you'd delete some of 385 00:29:08,330 --> 00:29:12,010 Speaker 1: the positive case, making sure that some regions lost a 386 00:29:12,050 --> 00:29:15,850 Speaker 1: lot of cases and some lost very few. Then you'd 387 00:29:15,930 --> 00:29:18,810 Speaker 1: compare what happened in the places where the contact tracing 388 00:29:18,890 --> 00:29:22,490 Speaker 1: system was still running smoothly to the places where thousands 389 00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:27,290 Speaker 1: of cases had gone missing. If you weren't an evil genius, 390 00:29:27,410 --> 00:29:30,850 Speaker 1: of course, you wouldn't dream of doing such a thing. Instead, 391 00:29:31,330 --> 00:29:33,810 Speaker 1: you'd keep an eye out for it happening by accident 392 00:29:34,370 --> 00:29:41,450 Speaker 1: because somebody bungled the formatting of Excel spreadsheets. Two economists, 393 00:29:41,810 --> 00:29:46,810 Speaker 1: Timo Fetzer and Thomas Graber did just that. They decided 394 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:50,690 Speaker 1: that no catastrophe should be allowed to occur without trying 395 00:29:50,730 --> 00:29:53,370 Speaker 1: to learn some lessons, which is very much in the 396 00:29:53,450 --> 00:29:58,130 Speaker 1: spirit of cautionary tales. They combed through the evidence from 397 00:29:58,210 --> 00:30:02,850 Speaker 1: Public Health England's mishap, and by comparing the different experiences 398 00:30:02,930 --> 00:30:06,410 Speaker 1: of different regions, they concluded that the error had led 399 00:30:06,610 --> 00:30:11,490 Speaker 1: to one hundred and twenty five thousand additional infections. The 400 00:30:11,650 --> 00:30:15,290 Speaker 1: story about Excel running out of numbers just seemed so 401 00:30:15,490 --> 00:30:18,890 Speaker 1: funny at first. Do you suffer from having to organize 402 00:30:18,930 --> 00:30:23,090 Speaker 1: and analyze a small set of numbers? And Bill Gates's 403 00:30:23,330 --> 00:30:27,410 Speaker 1: straight faced, straight laced response seemed funny too. Yeah, I 404 00:30:27,490 --> 00:30:31,050 Speaker 1: guess the older format. You know, they overran the sixty 405 00:30:31,090 --> 00:30:34,650 Speaker 1: four thousand limit, which is not there in the new format. 406 00:30:35,290 --> 00:30:37,770 Speaker 1: You know, it's good to have people double check things, 407 00:30:37,890 --> 00:30:41,370 Speaker 1: and you know, I'm sorry that happened. But of course 408 00:30:42,090 --> 00:30:44,850 Speaker 1: it was Gates who'd seen through the joke on the 409 00:30:44,970 --> 00:30:49,690 Speaker 1: surface to what lay beneath. He wasn't laughing, not because 410 00:30:49,690 --> 00:30:52,770 Speaker 1: he had no sense of humor, but because he understood 411 00:30:52,810 --> 00:30:57,290 Speaker 1: that this wasn't a comedy. It was a tragedy. The 412 00:30:57,370 --> 00:31:02,210 Speaker 1: economists Fetza and Graber have calculated a conservative estimate of 413 00:31:02,290 --> 00:31:06,530 Speaker 1: the number of people who died unknown victims of the 414 00:31:06,610 --> 00:31:10,490 Speaker 1: spreadsheet error. They think the death toll is at least 415 00:31:10,770 --> 00:31:16,810 Speaker 1: fifteen hundred people. So the next time there's a pandemic, 416 00:31:17,650 --> 00:31:21,730 Speaker 1: let's make sure we have our spreadsheets in order. After all, 417 00:31:22,170 --> 00:31:25,850 Speaker 1: As Leonardo da Vinci's friend, the father of accounting, Luca 418 00:31:25,890 --> 00:31:30,810 Speaker 1: Paccioli warned us more than five hundred years ago, if 419 00:31:30,890 --> 00:31:33,930 Speaker 1: you cannot be a good accountant, you will grope your 420 00:31:34,010 --> 00:31:38,530 Speaker 1: way forward like a blind man and may meet great losses. 421 00:31:39,850 --> 00:32:03,130 Speaker 1: Fifteen hundred people dead, great losses indeed. Key sources for 422 00:32:03,250 --> 00:32:08,850 Speaker 1: this cautionary tale include Planet Money episode six h six, Spreadsheets, 423 00:32:09,650 --> 00:32:15,050 Speaker 1: Matt Parker's YouTube video whence Spreadsheets Attack, and Bill Feggy's 424 00:32:15,090 --> 00:32:19,130 Speaker 1: book House on Fire. For a full list of our sources, 425 00:32:19,530 --> 00:32:26,290 Speaker 1: see Tim Harford dot com. Cautionary Tales is written by 426 00:32:26,370 --> 00:32:30,650 Speaker 1: me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright. It's produced by Ryan 427 00:32:30,730 --> 00:32:34,770 Speaker 1: Dilley and Marilyn Rust. The sound design and original music 428 00:32:35,010 --> 00:32:39,570 Speaker 1: are the work of Pascal Wise. Julia Barton edited the scripts. 429 00:32:40,170 --> 00:32:44,010 Speaker 1: Starring in this series of Cautionary Tales are Helena Bonham, 430 00:32:44,090 --> 00:32:50,970 Speaker 1: Carter and Jeoffrey Wright, alongside Nazar Alderazzi, Ed Gochen, Melanie Gutteridge, 431 00:32:51,570 --> 00:32:58,330 Speaker 1: Rachel Hanshaw, cobnor Holbrook, Smith, Reg Lockett, Missiamunroe and Rufus Wright. 432 00:32:59,010 --> 00:33:01,530 Speaker 1: The show would not have been possible without the work 433 00:33:01,610 --> 00:33:07,770 Speaker 1: of Mia LaBelle, Jacob Weisberg, Hella Fane, John Schnarz, Carlie mcgliori, 434 00:33:08,370 --> 00:33:14,290 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Emily Rostock, Maggie Taylor, Daniella Lakhan, and Maya Kane. 435 00:33:14,970 --> 00:33:19,050 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you 436 00:33:19,170 --> 00:33:22,890 Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review.