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Speaker 1: Welcome to Hat of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt, and

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Speaker 1: today we're talking about breaking the hidden barriers to financial

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Speaker 1: freedom with Jessica Morehouse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're joined today by Jessica Morehouse, who Okay, So

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Speaker 2: she started out as a blogger. She was looking for

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Speaker 2: a creative outlet and a way to hold herself accountable

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Speaker 2: with her finances, and she's now a financial counselor.

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Speaker 1: She's a speaker and host of her.

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Speaker 2: Own podcast, More Money. She is also the author of

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Speaker 2: the new book Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers between

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Speaker 2: You and Financial Freedom. And Jessica is just all about

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Speaker 2: providing easy to understand advice delivered in a non judgmental way.

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Speaker 2: And she believes that there is a lot of stuff

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Speaker 2: that gets in the way of us being able to

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Speaker 2: achieve our financial goals. So yeah, maybe most folks already

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Speaker 2: know how to invest, but what they need is help

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Speaker 2: with a trauma, maybe from their upbringing. That's just one

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Speaker 2: of the topics we're hoping to cover today with Jessica.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for coming on How to Money.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. Are you ready to talk

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Speaker 3: about your trauma?

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Speaker 1: Joel, Liz, I'm not. I've been on earthing in for

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Speaker 1: many years Jessica, So we no need to go there

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Speaker 1: on this episode.

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Speaker 4: I don't think, Yeah, we don't have enough time.

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Speaker 1: That is exactly right. That's exactly right. Our first question

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Speaker 1: to everyone who comes on, though, is what do you

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Speaker 1: like to splourge on? Because Matt and I we like

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Speaker 1: to spend a good bit of money on good craft beer.

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Speaker 1: But hey, we're still doing the smart thing, saving and

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Speaker 1: investing for our futures. What is that splurge item for you?

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Speaker 3: I'd say in the past couple years, I do like

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Speaker 3: an expensive cocktail, and they can be really expensive where

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Speaker 3: you live in Toronto, like twenty bucks.

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Speaker 1: Cool, and that's an expensive drink.

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Speaker 4: I know it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 3: You're like, that's a meal, but you're like, but it's

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Speaker 3: also a delicious cartini. So yeah, I like a goodtail.

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Speaker 3: Martiniz bougie ridiculous. Yeah, I love Martini's. I go to ginright,

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Speaker 3: you want to hear my newest take on the Gin

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Speaker 3: Martini is typically to make it.

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Speaker 1: Dirty, beelling everyone who listen.

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Speaker 2: So I've only told you I made it for Kate

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Speaker 2: and I the other night. So typically if you make

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Speaker 2: it dirty, So yeah, the olive uh, we didn't have olives,

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Speaker 2: but we had some capers in our fridge, and so

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Speaker 2: I and the shaker. I'm a shaker, not a stir

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Speaker 2: for two martinis. Did a couple spoons of capers in

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Speaker 2: there with some of the brine, shook it, strained it

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Speaker 2: over a little sieve to clean it out and filter

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Speaker 2: it in the cocktail. Oh my goodness. Yeah, so stinking good.

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure if you like yours dirty or not.

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 4: I despise.

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Speaker 3: I tried a dirty martini because it is. It sounds classier,

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Speaker 3: and I'm like, this is disgusting. I'm just not into olive.

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Speaker 3: So I'm a with the twist, always with the twist.

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Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, Well, there's a nice little lemon aromatic

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Speaker 2: that you get with that. Man, when did we Maybe

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Speaker 2: we should start like a whole like subhow to Money,

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Speaker 2: where we do cocktails instead of Oh.

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Speaker 4: My gosh, I would listen craft beer.

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Speaker 2: Jessica, let's talk about your book everything. I was almost

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Speaker 2: going to say everything but the money, but no, everything

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Speaker 2: but money. You admit in the introduction to your book

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Speaker 2: that the reason you wanted wealth was to be seen

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Speaker 2: to be loved. Can you tell us about that realization,

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Speaker 2: because I'm curious how common is it for folks to

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Speaker 2: build wealth in order to maybe attempt to soothe some

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Speaker 2: of those hidden emotions and some of that past pain.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we can look to some of the interesting

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Speaker 3: billionaires out there right now that keep on doing some

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Speaker 3: interesting things with their money instead of I don't know,

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Speaker 3: sharing the wealth and helping people in need, and just

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Speaker 3: instead of buying really expensive yachts. So yeah, I did

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Speaker 3: not expect to write this book in a way that

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Speaker 3: it kind of became where I share a lot of

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Speaker 3: my own personal story. When I got this book deal,

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Speaker 3: I kind of pitched it as a yeah, I'm going to,

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Speaker 3: you know, help readers kind of discover their money story

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Speaker 3: and the relationship with money, help them, And it just

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Speaker 3: naturally how I wrote the book. It really was from

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Speaker 3: intro all the way to the end. I did it

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Speaker 3: in sequence, and I've never written a book before, did

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Speaker 3: not know the right or wrong way to do it.

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Speaker 3: I just started writing and it just kind of started

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Speaker 3: flowing out of me. The intro was like, all right,

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Speaker 3: this is what I'm thinking, And it was true that

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Speaker 3: it was the winter of twenty twenty two. I was

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Speaker 3: supposed to go back home to Vancouver to visit my

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Speaker 3: family for the holidays, and I got sick with COVID.

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Speaker 3: It was my first time having COVID, and it was brutal,

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Speaker 3: and I isolated for my husband because he had not

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Speaker 3: gotten it and I didn't want to get him sick.

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Speaker 3: And so I had a lot of time on my

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Speaker 3: own with my deep dark thoughts. And what I realized

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Speaker 3: was I was so not happy with my life, even

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Speaker 3: though on the outside it looked absolutely fine. But I

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Speaker 3: have a very loud inner critic, and no matter what

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Speaker 3: I achieved, whether it was in my career or with

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Speaker 3: my money, I never felt satisfied. I was always comparing

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Speaker 3: myself to I'll find someone who was doing better than

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Speaker 3: me and compare myself to that person's journey, even though

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Speaker 3: we're on different paths. Don't know why I'm comparing myself

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Speaker 3: to that person, and then just feel like crap, because

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Speaker 3: I'm like, well, you didn't do this. Though you didn't

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Speaker 3: do this, you could be doing better, you should work harder,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera. And so I realized, actually, I've

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Speaker 3: always had this thought in the back of my mind

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Speaker 3: that I should be doing better or more and there's

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Speaker 3: someone else doing more than you, and you know, you

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Speaker 3: should feel so bad about that. And I realized that

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Speaker 3: I've been kind of on that path for since childhood,

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Speaker 3: and I had to do some introspection on why is that?

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Speaker 3: Why do I feel not good enough? And there's many reasons.

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Speaker 3: You know, part of it was being a middle child,

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Speaker 3: and you know, kind of falling into that role of

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Speaker 3: being overlooked because I had a younger sister who you know,

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Speaker 3: needed a lot of attention when she was younger. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: then there was my older sibling and I just kind

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Speaker 3: of faded into the background because that's that was my

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Speaker 3: coping mechanism instead of asking for what I needed, which

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Speaker 3: was more attention, more equality, care and things like that.

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Speaker 3: And the other component was I also was just the

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Speaker 3: worst picker of friends. I would gravitate towards certain people

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Speaker 3: with certain energies, people that had, you know, a lot

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Speaker 3: of confidence or just were more extroverted, because I'm typically,

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Speaker 3: you know, pretty introverted, and these people would also what

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Speaker 3: I also realized after doing some therapy, I was very

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Speaker 3: attracted to people with specific types of trauma that would

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Speaker 3: have high highs low lows very inconsistent people. You know,

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Speaker 3: I talk about attachment theory in the book, and for

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Speaker 3: a long time, I was always attracted to people who

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Speaker 3: were avoidance. So people that you know, show you a

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Speaker 3: lot of care and love and then back off, and

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Speaker 3: it's just like that cat and mouse kind of chase.

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Speaker 3: And I loved it until I'd always get burned and

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Speaker 3: then I'd try to find new friends that were similar.

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Speaker 4: And so I was dealing with.

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Speaker 3: All this stuff and figuring this out about myself, and

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Speaker 3: that was kind of where I wanted to start with

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Speaker 3: the book, to just be like, hey, I've been doing

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Speaker 3: this kind of money expert thing, content creator thing in

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Speaker 3: financial education for over a decade and I am not perfect,

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Speaker 3: and I've got my wounds, and I have a very

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Speaker 3: complicated relationship with money. So let's go on this journey together,

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Speaker 3: because I think we've all got our stuff that we

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Speaker 3: need to work through.

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Speaker 1: Most people like in a lot of the things you

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Speaker 1: just described, whether it's you know, childhood issues, middle child.

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Speaker 1: I just talked a lot to get attention. Now was

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Speaker 1: a middle child too, but it and it worked. But

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Speaker 1: there are we don't necessarily associate some of the things

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned not having a hard time finding great

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Speaker 1: friends with maybe the end result of an awkward relationship

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Speaker 1: with your money or a bad relationship towards spending, saving,

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Speaker 1: or investing. How do you think about bad habits maybe

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Speaker 1: versus unexplored emotions and how those impact how we handle money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think when you start doing that digging of

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Speaker 3: figuring out what your kind of past is and who

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Speaker 3: you are at your core, and then some of the

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Speaker 3: traumas that you've experienced or witness that have impacted you

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Speaker 3: that you haven't healed from. We can use multiple things

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Speaker 3: to try to soothe ourselves, to regulate our emotions to

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Speaker 3: make us feel better. Sometimes that's food, Sometimes that's alcohol,

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Speaker 3: Sometimes that's drugs, Sometimes that's fitness. But sometimes it's money.

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Speaker 3: And that really doesn't get that much attention. But I

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Speaker 3: mean I, as a financial counselor who you know has

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Speaker 3: worked with a number of people, especially with spending issues

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Speaker 3: or they're in debt, I would find over and over

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Speaker 3: you're not a bad person, or you're You didn't get

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Speaker 3: into debt because you didn't know what you were getting

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Speaker 3: yourself into. You didn't you had the financial knowledge to

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Speaker 3: not do that, but you did it anyway.

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Speaker 4: Why is that.

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Speaker 3: It's because you were using money as a coping mechanism

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Speaker 3: to try to soothe yourself or try to heal, because

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Speaker 3: you know, whenever you buy something, you feel a little

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Speaker 3: bit better about yourself, You get a little bit boost

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Speaker 3: of confidence that dopamine hit, but then that goes away,

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Speaker 3: and so you need to repeat the cycle over and over.

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Speaker 3: But it doesn't have to be just spending. It could

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Speaker 3: be the opposite. And that's kind of where I fell

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Speaker 3: into a little bit, especially in my twenties, which was oversaving, underspending,

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Speaker 3: not taking care of myself and kind of not being

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Speaker 3: a martyr exactly, but finding that I liked the control

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Speaker 3: of I felt more in control when I was very

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Speaker 3: strict with my budget and said no a lot, because

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Speaker 3: I'm like, there's some pride to me, like, no, I'm

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Speaker 3: not going to do that because I'm doing something more

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Speaker 3: important with my money instead of going out with friends

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Speaker 3: to dinner or something like that, which also isn't healthy

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Speaker 3: because you should never feel better or worse depending on

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Speaker 3: how you spend or don't spend your money. You need

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Speaker 3: to have some balance, and I think most people fall

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Speaker 3: into some sort of extreme and that's never a healthy

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Speaker 3: place to live in long term?

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Speaker 2: Can you speak to the specific childhood money memories that

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Speaker 2: we might have that inform our relationship to money as.

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Speaker 3: A Yeah, I can share mine, but I'd be curious

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Speaker 3: what yours are. If you've ever been asked that before,

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Speaker 3: because that's the most interesting thing I keep getting asked

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Speaker 3: on an interviews. Hey, let's talk about the money store,

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Speaker 3: because like so many people are, like, this got me

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Speaker 3: thinking about mine. No one's ever asked me that. I've

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Speaker 3: never thought about it. So I kind of start off

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Speaker 3: the book by let's explore how you feel about money,

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Speaker 3: and let's go back to your first money memory, which

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Speaker 3: was your first interaction with money?

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Speaker 4: And guess what?

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Speaker 3: It usually happens very early in childhood. For me, it

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Speaker 3: was four years old, and I've always had a relationship

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Speaker 3: with money that was always very tightly connected to shame.

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Speaker 3: And I always wondered, why is that? Why do I

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Speaker 3: always feel so ashamed about who I am and where

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Speaker 3: I'm at financially, even when I'm in a decent place.

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Speaker 3: And then I looked back at, Okay, what was my

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Speaker 3: first money memory? And then it just you know, came

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Speaker 3: to me while I was writing, like, oh, well, there

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Speaker 3: was the gumball at the grocery store.

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Speaker 4: I was kid at the grocery store with my mom.

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Speaker 3: Loved going because if I behaved, she would treat me

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Speaker 3: to a donut. And I also loved, you know, walking

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Speaker 3: in the bulk aisle just to take a look at

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Speaker 3: all the different candy. But I knew I wasn't supposed touch.

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Speaker 3: But then one day I'm like, ah, she's not looking,

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Speaker 3: and what's the harm. Adults, you know, Papa, sample into

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Speaker 3: their mouths all the time. I'm gonna steal a gumball,

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Speaker 3: so I did. Was way too big for me to

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Speaker 3: chew at four years old, so I just like kept

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Speaker 3: it in my cheeks like a squirrel hoarding nuts. And

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Speaker 3: when we're walking to the parking lot, because she hadn't

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Speaker 3: really noticed the exo, so I guess hiding my face,

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Speaker 3: she popped the trunk put the groceries in, and then

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Speaker 3: she saw him. I also, I was completely blue in

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Speaker 3: the face, just like from the sticky blue gumball all

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Speaker 3: over because I.

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Speaker 4: Was a sticky kid. And she's like, what are you doing?

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Speaker 3: And she you know, I have this vivid memory, and

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Speaker 3: of course she's like, I do not remember this at

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Speaker 3: all I'm like, course, not is a core memory for me,

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Speaker 3: not for you. But she dragged me back to the

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Speaker 3: grocery store and made me spit it out and said,

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Speaker 3: we don't steal things. You cannot do this. We have

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Speaker 3: to pay for things like this. And the other kind

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Speaker 3: of component besides feeling ashamed for stealing was I also

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Speaker 3: felt like we can't look like we cannot afford something,

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Speaker 3: because there's a lot of shame in looking like you're poor,

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Speaker 3: and there still is. We have a lot of judgment

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Speaker 3: on people who are low income, which is terrible. And

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Speaker 3: so there's a lot of kind of layers of shame

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Speaker 3: and money, or the lack of money that I've brought

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Speaker 3: from that first interaction as a child into adulthood.

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Speaker 4: So with that, I want to ask you both, do.

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Speaker 3: You either can you think of what maybe your first

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Speaker 3: money memory might be.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, we've talked about here on the show. I

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Speaker 2: would say I had a fairly surprisingly healthy upbringing when

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Speaker 2: it came to money being paid for the things that

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Speaker 2: I worked for. And maybe you would say that that's

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Speaker 2: not healthy, but it's certainly instilled a sort of a

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Speaker 2: work ethic. You get money and you are a good

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Speaker 2: manager of your money. I don't know all the kind

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Speaker 2: of things that we talk about, at least here on

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Speaker 2: the show.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mine, I've talked about as well. Far less healthy.

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Speaker 1: And my parents had a lot of financial struggles when

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Speaker 1: I was a kid in a really impressiable aile age.

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Speaker 1: They argued about money and then eventually we had a

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Speaker 1: car repossessed, my dad lost lost a job, and they

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Speaker 1: were just kind of this cascading like sequence of events

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Speaker 1: in the personal finance space in our family's life that

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Speaker 1: left an indelible impression on me. And so it's almost

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Speaker 1: like I think, like the Men in Black memory eraser stick.

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Speaker 1: I don't remember any money things before that, but that

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Speaker 1: is like my distinct recollection of money and it's big

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Speaker 1: impact on me. Yeah, I've had to work that stuff

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Speaker 1: out in adulthood for sure, to have like a healthy

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Speaker 1: relationship with money and not just kind of a scarcity attachment.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and that's easy.

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Speaker 3: I mean I have definitely battled scarcity, and that's so

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Speaker 3: common to so many people. I encounter battle scarcity, and

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Speaker 3: it's because they either personally experienced that as a child,

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Speaker 3: or they witnessed their parents kind of experiencing that, or

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Speaker 3: I even talk about in the book about generational trauma

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Speaker 3: where you can inherit it and maybe it's all maybe

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Speaker 3: it's all of those things combined. And that was kind

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Speaker 3: of my experience, which makes it very difficult to try

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Speaker 3: to have an abundance mindset manifest You're like, yeah, that's

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Speaker 3: not as easy for me as it could be for you.

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Speaker 2: Sure, So do you think that folks don't take enough

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Speaker 2: time to I guess connect some of those memories, some

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Speaker 2: of those narratives that we've all experienced as kids too.

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Speaker 2: How does that we currently handle our finances? Oh?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, Like that's been the interesting thing.

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Speaker 3: The book as we're recording, has been out for about

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Speaker 3: three weeks, and the feedback I've gotten from so many people,

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Speaker 3: all these emails and dms, is oh my god. I've

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Speaker 3: never thought there was a connection between my childhood trauma

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Speaker 3: and my money, But now that you mention it, it

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Speaker 3: makes so much sense. And that's exactly what I wanted

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Speaker 3: is for people to make those connections because often the

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Speaker 3: especially with you know, traditional personal finance advice and some

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Speaker 3: of the loud voices in the space, the old voices

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Speaker 3: in the space that you made know who I'm talking

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Speaker 3: about they put the blame on the individual. You're not

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Speaker 3: doing this, you're not working hard enough, you're not motivated enough,

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Speaker 3: you're not smart enough, you're bad for doing this with

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Speaker 3: your money. And that's not the case. I find when

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Speaker 3: I work with individuals. Something else is going on. There's

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Speaker 3: some reason they keep on messing up, and they know

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Speaker 3: they're messing up and they.

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Speaker 4: Don't want to, but they keep doing it. And it's

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Speaker 4: not because.

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Speaker 1: It's also not a great motivator for most people right

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Speaker 1: a long term you really suck. It's not usually one

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Speaker 1: of those things that says, you know what, yeah I do,

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Speaker 1: let me go and like improve myself.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Like if someone says, wow, you really put on

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Speaker 3: some pounds, does that motivate you to go the dead? No,

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Speaker 3: it makes you feel really bad and you probably will

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Speaker 3: just cry about it. Like that's my experience anyway, If

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Speaker 3: someone you know, shames me in that way, it doesn't

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Speaker 3: motivate me to improve my situation. But unfortunately, that's a

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Speaker 3: lot of the kind of messaging and the tone out

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Speaker 3: there is using that tactic of shame. And that's why

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Speaker 3: I really want to be gentle in my book, because

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Speaker 3: I'm not super gentle with myself sometimes in my mind,

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Speaker 3: but I want to have a space where people can

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Speaker 3: be vulnerable with themselves in this book and also feel

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Speaker 3: guided by someone who was like, there's no shame or

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Speaker 3: blame in this book. You're not going to hear that

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Speaker 3: tone of voice at all here.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like we probably need to have like

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Speaker 1: think through those stories that inform our money beliefs. We

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Speaker 1: probably need to assign some specific emotions to kind of

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Speaker 1: what we went through and how we now maybe relate

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Speaker 1: to money, and then what do we do with that,

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Speaker 1: Like we've got the feelings maybe outlined, We've got some

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Speaker 1: of our actual kind of childhood data infused into that.

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Speaker 1: Where do we go from there?

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Speaker 3: When you start understanding your past, your kind of origin

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Speaker 3: story with money, how it's kind of continued as you

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Speaker 3: get into adulthood, and then start putting labels on some

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Speaker 3: of the feelings that you have about money. And there's

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Speaker 3: a whole chapter on the different feelings. I mean, there's

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Speaker 3: a ton of feelings out there, obviously, but the main

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Speaker 3: ones that I see people connect with money is shame, guilt, fear, anxiety, envy,

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Speaker 3: and despair. Those are kind of the most common ones

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Speaker 3: when you kind of make all those connections. Now you're

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Speaker 3: at a place where you can start kind of writing

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Speaker 3: what your current money story is, and that's the narrative

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Speaker 3: that you've been telling yourself up until now about you

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Speaker 3: and money, what you can and cannot achieve, what's your

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Speaker 3: potential or you know, just some of the things that

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Speaker 3: are holding you back, some of the behaviors and habits,

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Speaker 3: values that you've maybe adopted from your childhood that you

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Speaker 3: you know, I never noticed I did that, or the

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Speaker 3: things that actually because of your childhood, you went the

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Speaker 3: complete opposite direction and rebelled against maybe what you saw

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Speaker 3: your parents do, and so that's why you do this

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Speaker 3: and this, which maybe also isn't healthy. Again, I find

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Speaker 3: a lot of people that are struggling with their relationship

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Speaker 3: with the money. It's because they're stuck in some sort

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Speaker 3: of extreme and we want to come to a place

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Speaker 3: that makes more sense. You're more logical, rational, less emotional

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Speaker 3: about money, so you can start taking better care of

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Speaker 3: your money and yourself. But you need to be able

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Speaker 3: to outline and really kind of figure out what is

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Speaker 3: the blueprint I've been using with my money up until now,

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Speaker 3: so we can see what do we want to change.

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Speaker 3: How can we renovate this house so it's a better

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Speaker 3: representation of where I actually want to be with my money.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned rebelling against maybe the stories, or it's maybe

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Speaker 2: even some of.

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Speaker 1: The values that were explicitly taught to you.

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Speaker 2: As a kid within your family. Like, I think it's

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Speaker 2: understandable why we tend to adopt those values in those stories, right,

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Speaker 2: Like we're raised by parents who hopefully love us, and

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Speaker 2: hopefully most listeners they love their parents. Like, it has

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Speaker 2: a large impact on how you viewed the world. But

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Speaker 2: for someone listening and they've identified that, you know what,

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Speaker 2: maybe they didn't handle their finances the best. Aside from that, Like,

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Speaker 2: I guess what strategies or steps would you recommend for

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Speaker 2: folks who are looking to essentially rewrite their money story, Like,

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Speaker 2: how do you go about doing that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say, really lay out, Yeah, what are some

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Speaker 3: of your feelings, the patterns you're seeing, the habits and behaviors, values,

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Speaker 3: all that stuff.

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Speaker 4: Write it all down.

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Speaker 3: And I do have some exercises in the book to

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Speaker 3: kind of ask you some questions so it can kind

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Speaker 3: of jog your memory. So you can kind of write

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Speaker 3: down everything and then take a step back to take

395
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Speaker 3: a look at what's.

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Speaker 4: Working in what's not.

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Speaker 3: Like just the other day, I just had this realization

398
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Speaker 3: that I adopted this idea, and my husband is the same.

399
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Speaker 4: He's like, oh yeah, I do that too.

400
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Speaker 3: Where I think you were a complete chump or I'm

401
00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 3: a complete chump if I buy something that's not on

402
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,159
Speaker 3: sale because I was taught or not even directly. I

403
00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:34,760
Speaker 3: think I just observed that my mom always bought things

404
00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 3: on sale, but never buy anything that is full price

405
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Speaker 3: because well, you know, it's being marked up anyway, and

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Speaker 3: it's not worth that anyway. I'm just gonna wait for

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Speaker 3: it to be on sale. That's how you know you're

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Speaker 3: going to get a good deal. Otherwise you're, you know,

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Speaker 3: being hoodwinked and you know, being paying too much for

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Speaker 3: that thing.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell Joel why he's wrong. I do feel like

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Speaker 1: you're stepping on my toes right now, Jessica.

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Speaker 3: Yes, sorry, sorry, sorry sorry, And there's nothing wrong with

414
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Speaker 3: the deal. Hey, I still love a good deal. But

415
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 3: I realized there are certain things that I wanted and

416
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Speaker 3: could afford, and there was no reason I shouldn't buy it,

417
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Speaker 3: and I like felt guilty for even thinking of purchasing

418
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Speaker 3: it because it wasn't on sale. That's illogical. That's an

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Speaker 3: illogical thing to bring with me from childhood to adulthood.

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Speaker 3: There's so many great things that you could be buying,

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Speaker 3: especially from like amazing small businesses and you know, artists

422
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Speaker 3: and things like that that will never be on sale.

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Speaker 3: So that means you're limiting yourself from not spending your

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Speaker 3: money in that way because of this one thing.

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Speaker 1: So let's be honest. Sales often give us the permission

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Speaker 1: to buy something we shouldn't buy it too, so fueling

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Speaker 1: that consumeristic lifestyle and mindset exactly.

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Speaker 3: And so I realized for me, I'm like, that's something

429
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Speaker 3: I need to let go of. Or even you know,

430
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Speaker 3: when I said my kind of you know, thing that

431
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Speaker 3: I like to splurge on is a cocktails.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: I would have never in a million years said that.

434
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Speaker 3: In my twenties or even the early thirties, I was

435
00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,320
Speaker 3: the person that go to a restaurant, look at the

436
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,159
Speaker 3: cheapest thing on the menu, and that's what I was

437
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 3: going to get, And that just became a habit. I

438
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 3: didn't been realize I had. It was just so second

439
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 3: nature until I'm like, what if you want to eat

440
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 3: something different, why are you always going for the burger

441
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:13,159
Speaker 3: when you want the chicken or something? And yeah, I

442
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 3: don't know, but it's just like, these are things that

443
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 3: are not serving me and they're holding me back for

444
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,960
Speaker 3: maybe some a great experience or something joyful or something nice.

445
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,719
Speaker 3: And it's not gonna ruin my retirement, you know, spending

446
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 3: five extra dollars or ten extra dollars when again it's

447
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 3: in my budgets and something that I can fully do.

448
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: And so it's really about laying out what's working, what's not,

449
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 3: and then also maybe adding some stuff. What would you

450
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 3: like to include What are you not doing that you've

451
00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 3: always wanted to do with your money? And that could

452
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 3: be you know, a lot of people encounter are really

453
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 3: focused on saving, but they haven't really gotten to that

454
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 3: investing component, which is so vital. That is the only

455
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,600
Speaker 3: way you're gonna build wealth and achieve those really big

456
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 3: lofty dreams of maybe you know, quitting your job one day,

457
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 3: or retiring early, or just retiring at all. But so

458
00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 3: many people are maybe afraid to even get started or

459
00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: to learn about it because the lessons they maybe learned were, oh, no,

460
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 3: investing's risky, you're going to lose all your money. And

461
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,479
Speaker 3: just look at the neighbors. They lost their you know,

462
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,399
Speaker 3: investments in the last crash. So don't even bother. Just

463
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 3: put your money in the bank and you know, some

464
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 3: safe investments. And that's something that you may have to

465
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 3: also be like, yeah, we're not going to do that,

466
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 3: and we're going to add in this new component of

467
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 3: we need to invest for our future.

468
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's amazing too how different people grow up in

469
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 1: different ways and so they have completely different money stories,

470
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 1: and yet it takes a lot of kind of going

471
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,440
Speaker 1: back in time to figure out what they are, how

472
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: they've informed how you live today. We'll talking about that.

473
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: We'll talk about actually trauma and how that impacts how

474
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,960
Speaker 1: people think about their finances and act with money. We'll

475
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 1: get into more of that with Jessica Morehouse right after this.

476
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:57,120
Speaker 2: Right, we are back from the break speaking with Jessica

477
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 2: Morehouse and Jessica, So before the break, you were kind

478
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: of talking about some of the loudest voices in the

479
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: personal finance space. It's kind of like when you're talking

480
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: about like the blame game a little bit, and you've

481
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 2: got a chapter titled It's not you, it's your trauma.

482
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 2: And there's a quote from that section you say, we

483
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 2: all need to take ownership of the financial decisions we make.

484
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 2: But if those decisions keep driving us into a bigger

485
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 2: debt hole each month and we have no idea why

486
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,240
Speaker 2: or how to stop it, we need to consider that

487
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,480
Speaker 2: there's something deeper going on. And I almost wanted to

488
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 2: interject earlier, but talk about I guess the balance of

489
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 2: personal responsibility on one hand.

490
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: As opposed to this past hardship that a lot of.

491
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 4: Us have experienced. Yeah.

492
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 3: So yeah, there's a couple other parts of that section

493
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 3: that I think are really helpful, just to kind of

494
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 3: always remind yourself, as number one, understanding your money story

495
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 3: and your trauma and how it impacts your financial life

496
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,120
Speaker 3: and your financial decisions is not an excuse. It's an explanation,

497
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: and a lot of us are just lacking that explanation.

498
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 3: And the other part, which I really love and I

499
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 3: remind myself of this all the time, is you are

500
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 3: not bad with money. And we needed to stop asking

501
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 3: ourselves what's wrong with me and maybe instead start asking

502
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,399
Speaker 3: ourselves what happened to me? Because usually we think that

503
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 3: we're doing something wrong because we're you know, I'm dumb.

504
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 3: I'm just bad with money. That's a common thing I hear.

505
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 3: It's not that money is a skill that anyone can learn.

506
00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 4: I do not have.

507
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 3: I did not start from a financial background. I went

508
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 3: to film school. I was an art school kid, a

509
00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: very artsy school. I went to and then graduated and

510
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 3: knew nothing about money. And it was the Great Recession

511
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine, and I'm like, oh, shoot, how

512
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 3: do I pay off my student loans? How do I

513
00:24:43,119 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 3: live and pay rent? I have no idea and loan.

514
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 3: I found personal finance blogs, started educating myself. And again,

515
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: I was never into science for math that I was

516
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 3: always like English arts. That was kind of my brain

517
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 3: and I was able to learn it and find the

518
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 3: parts that really connected with me. So I believe anyone

519
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 3: can learn anything about money. But with that said, sometimes

520
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,959
Speaker 3: things come easier to certain people depending on are you

521
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 3: secure with money or insecure with money? And that's just

522
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 3: to say that did you have was you know, money

523
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 3: kind of represented or a healthy role in your family?

524
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: It was, you know, represented as something that this is

525
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,959
Speaker 3: a tool that you can do whatever you want with.

526
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: It can provide a lot of security and freedom and

527
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 3: it's a good thing, but a lot of us grew

528
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 3: up in households where money wasn't a positive character in

529
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: our lives. It was something that it was always holding

530
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 3: us back and forced us to say no a lot.

531
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 3: It was always the reason we couldn't do something instead

532
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 3: of allowing us to do something. And so by better

533
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 3: understanding the role that trauma has with your finances, I

534
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,439
Speaker 3: think that can really open the door to get that

535
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,680
Speaker 3: explanation that you really need and to kind of go

536
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 3: more into what trauma means. It's just another word for

537
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 3: emotional wound that you have not healed yet, and we

538
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: all have them. Unfortunately. It could be really tiny, it

539
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 3: could be really big. There is big T trauma and

540
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 3: little T trauma, and everyone is a different story. And

541
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,439
Speaker 3: you can even be traumatized by just witnessing something, not

542
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: even experiencing it. And like I mentioned, you could also

543
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,360
Speaker 3: inherit it from some of your ancestors. And so there's

544
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 3: a lot of different traumas that you may have inside

545
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 3: you that may be holding you back. And I'm happy

546
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 3: to know you can jump in anytime, because I can

547
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 3: go on and on.

548
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: About that it might be smaller than trauma, but just

549
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about people's different personality types or just abilities

550
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: and neurodiversence. Right I'm thinking of my kids and their

551
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: birth order and how they have different skills, and sometimes

552
00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: that skill manifests itself as being really great in school,

553
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,239
Speaker 1: and other times it's like, I'm really great socially, but

554
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,160
Speaker 1: school's not my strong suit right now, and so something

555
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: like ADHD can play a role even in our finances.

556
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm thinking about my middle kid right now, and I'm

557
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: just like, oh, man, what's this going to look like

558
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: for it's going to look her relationship with money is

559
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: just going to look different differently than it does for

560
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: her older sister, even though they grew up in the

561
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 1: same house, with the same parents, with a lot of

562
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: the same money conversations going on. So, how would you say,

563
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,080
Speaker 1: because you wrote about this in the book, how are

564
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: people who struggle with like ADHD, whether they know it

565
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,760
Speaker 1: or not, impacted on the financial front.

566
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is a topic that I've you know,

567
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 3: I think it's great that's becoming a lot more open

568
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 3: in conversation, especially online in the personal finance community. A

569
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 3: lot of content creators, financial content creators have ADHD it's

570
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:39,919
Speaker 3: becoming I'm not sure if it's I kind of talk

571
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 3: about this in the book, whether it's you know, ADHD

572
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 3: is more common than it was, or people are just

573
00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 3: being properly diagnosed and there's just more information and data.

574
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 3: But if you do have ADHD, money is going to

575
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 3: be different for you than someone who does not have it,

576
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 3: because you are operating with a different system and you

577
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 3: may need to put some different systems in place so

578
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 3: you can properly manage your money in a way that

579
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: makes sense for you. And I also talk about in

580
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 3: the book how there's also a huge link between ADHD

581
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 3: and trauma because they actually share a lot of the

582
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 3: same symptoms.

583
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 4: So sometimes.

584
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 3: You know, you may be misdiagnosed with ADHD, but it

585
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: may actually be trauma that we haven't dealt with, or

586
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 3: people with ADHD are actually more prone to experience trauma.

587
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 3: So there's a lot of overlap, a lot of connection

588
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 3: between the two. But this is all to say that,

589
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 3: you know, when you are in a you know, you're

590
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 3: a person that can get distracted, or there's there's other

591
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 3: things that are preventing you from just following through when

592
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:45,920
Speaker 3: you're like this is so simple, Why can't you just

593
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: do it, It's gonna be harder for you. So you

594
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 3: have to kind of create your own roadmap for how

595
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 3: do I get to the results that I want in

596
00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 3: a way that makes sense for me. Because even for me,

597
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: like I manage my money differently than a lot of

598
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 3: people because of how my brain works.

599
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 4: I'm very visual. I like lists.

600
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 3: And like organizing things, and some other people they're like,

601
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 3: I cannot do it that way. That just does not

602
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 3: make sense for me. And so that's that's definitely something

603
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 3: that I really wanted to put in there. Is everyone's different,

604
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 3: and that's why even though there's so many great there's

605
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 3: so much great you know and free financial education out there, unfortunately,

606
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 3: personal finance is personal and there's no such thing as

607
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: a one size fits all strategy for everyone. You have

608
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 3: to kind of take what makes sense for you and

609
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: then kind of create your own thing with it.

610
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 2: Can you share some examples? Maybe, so you are a

611
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: financial counselor and you've seen a lot of folks who

612
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 2: have a lot of different personalities, backgrounds, ADHD perhaps, and

613
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 2: you said that sometimes it's different systems that need to

614
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 2: be creative, Like literally, what does that look like? I

615
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 2: mean does it conceptually? Is that creating hard boundaries? Practically speaking?

616
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: What does that look like?

617
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: Yeah?

618
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: So honestly, when I get approached by someone who has

619
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: ADHD and they're looking for financial help, I actually try

620
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 3: to find them a financial professional who specializes in that

621
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 3: or even has ADHD. And there's a few people I

622
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 3: know because I'm like, you want to maybe work with

623
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 3: someone who knows exactly what you're going through. I don't,

624
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 3: and so I want you to find someone who can

625
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 3: help you the best way possible. But for for lots

626
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 3: of other people who more than people, I think I've

627
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: encountered our people with trauma, which is actually a little

628
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 3: easier to deal with. Is we need to figure out

629
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: what are you having the hardest problem with right now?

630
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 3: And then how can we create systems so you know,

631
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 3: on payday you don't blow through all of your money.

632
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 3: We're making sure we're putting money into savings, we're putting

633
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 3: money aside to pay all of your expenses, we're giving

634
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 3: you some fun money. How can we create these systems?

635
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 3: And you know, for some people, yeah, you can use

636
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,479
Speaker 3: a credit card for everything, get those points, build your

637
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: credit score, and you're going to be completely responsible with that.

638
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: Some people, Yeah, you shouldn't use a credit card for

639
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 3: anything that's not like a fixed bill that you know

640
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: exactly how much is going to go on that card

641
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: and you can pay it off right away. Everything else,

642
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: we need a different system, such as your debit card

643
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 3: or like a prepaid card or something like that, so

644
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: we have that kind of guard rail so you don't

645
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: know we're spend. So it kind of depends on the

646
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: person to see what are you dealing with, what do

647
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: we need to kind of change. For example, even for investing,

648
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 3: there are certain people that I'm like, you should not

649
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: be a self directed or di win investor. You should

650
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 3: either work with an advisor or a robo advisor. You

651
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 3: need something that's so simple, that's automated that you cannot

652
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 3: touch because you shouldn't touch it.

653
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: It's like, you know yourself and if you are a

654
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: terrible baller, you put the bumpers up right so that

655
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: you can still hit some pins down even if it

656
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: just like goes back and forth across the alley the

657
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 1: whole time. And yeah, so I think that makes a

658
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 1: whole lot of sense, and it's specific to the individual.

659
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: And you're right, there are some people who an advisor

660
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,320
Speaker 1: makes sense or a robo advisor, And then there are

661
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 1: other people who like uh. And there's some people who

662
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: should maybe never ever check their account balance or once

663
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: a year at most, because they'd be too inclined to

664
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: make a knee jerk decision. And then there are other

665
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: people who I don't know, They can look at it

666
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: once a week because they're curious, but it's not going

667
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: to impact their decision making or their emotions. And one

668
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: thing you said to in your book, you said, Eu

669
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 1: Schrapau is not just trauma getting in the way of

670
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: smart money decisions. You say, it's just our basic humanity too,

671
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: which I don't know makes me feel like we're all

672
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: screwed or something that they Yeah, okay.

673
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 3: Maybe not all screwed, all screwed up a little bit, Okay.

674
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 2: All right, Well, no, you highlight a whole whole lot

675
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 2: of different biases that we have and how that essentially

676
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: kind of derails what we're able to achieve.

677
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like, just being a human is going to make

678
00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 3: it harder to be perfect with money. And I've not

679
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 3: met anyone who's perfect with money, but just being a

680
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 3: human and we have these instincts that are helping us

681
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: to survive. But a lot of these instincts come from

682
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 3: hundreds of thousands of years ago and they don't apply

683
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: to our finances. So you know, one thing I always

684
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 3: bring up is herd mentality because we've all probably experienced

685
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 3: it or have witnessed it where and I feel like

686
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 3: we're seeing that now with like crypto again, is just

687
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: everyone just like, oh well, everyone's getting into this. I

688
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: don't want to be left behind, So I'm going to

689
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: get into this coin as well, and I'm going to

690
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 3: get rich and this is how I'm going to survive.

691
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 3: And then what happens is there's a bubble, it bursts

692
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 3: in your left holding big or something like that. Now,

693
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 3: that instinct made a lot of sense back when we

694
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 3: lived in herds and had to run away from some

695
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 3: sort of danger and animal that was going to attack us.

696
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 3: We had to run as a herd to get away

697
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 3: from the danger. Does not work the same with the

698
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,959
Speaker 3: stock market, Like you're just going to do some really

699
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: big damage to your finances. And so understanding some of

700
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 3: these biases that we will take as oh well, my

701
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 3: instinct says or my gut says, to do this in finance,

702
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 3: most of the time, you have to do the opposite

703
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: to what your instincts are telling you, which is very

704
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 3: difficult to do. You have to be very self aware

705
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,560
Speaker 3: of what's going on, how you're feeling, and sometimes don't

706
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 3: do it. I mean almost most of the time, don't

707
00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 3: do anything until you've kind of calmed down and don't

708
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 3: like this urge to you know, liquidate your savings because

709
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 3: the you know, everything's collapsing or you know, I'm I'm

710
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 3: sure you're seeing a lot of this. I see a

711
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 3: lot of this in Canada as well, as people are

712
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 3: freaking out because the political situation and there's a lot

713
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 3: of uncertainty and what should I do? Should I pull

714
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,960
Speaker 3: out everything? I'm like, God, no, just keep it, stop,

715
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 3: don't touch it. Just don't do what your instincts are saying,

716
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: which is runaway. You need to stay in place because

717
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 3: a line is not coming to attack you. It's it's

718
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 3: just you got to just keep calm and carry on

719
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: a little.

720
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 1: Bit over inflating the potential reality of political turmoil or

721
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 1: certain situations in our lives. You know, I feel like

722
00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: we've covered the problem well. But you also talk about

723
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: and you offer some of these services but how do

724
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: you help people think through if they actually need the

725
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: help of a professional to kind of weigh through some

726
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:52,239
Speaker 1: of their past history, their money traumas, and trying to

727
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: kind of figure out that what's informed kind of their

728
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,640
Speaker 1: current money beliefs, and then how to change whether that's

729
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: something they can kind of of pursue on their own.

730
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm of the belief that everyone should go

731
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 3: to therapy, but we're all going to the dentist, We're

732
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 3: all going to the doctor. We shall also going to

733
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 3: go go cisia therapist. But you know, I do offer

734
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: a lot of kind of self guided exercises within the

735
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: book to kind of get you started. But I feel

736
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,600
Speaker 3: like in most cases, and especially even with just finance

737
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: in general, you're probably going to hit a point where

738
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 3: you're like, I need a second pair of eyes or

739
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 3: just some some outside person that can look at what

740
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 3: I've been able to build to be like is this right?

741
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: Did I miss anything?

742
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 3: Because in so many other areas of our lives, we

743
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,480
Speaker 3: usually have someone else looking over our work or just

744
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 3: to check. Like with my book My God, I had

745
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 3: editors and editors and copywriters, and I could not write

746
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,919
Speaker 3: a whole book by myself without having someone check my work.

747
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 3: And so we need to see what are what can

748
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 3: we do on our own? And then at what point

749
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 3: do we hit the limit of oh, I can't really

750
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,040
Speaker 3: move forward, you know, without some extra help. And so

751
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 3: when it's financial specifics, like I, you know, I just

752
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 3: had a call with someone this morning who was interested

753
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: in signing up to my course, and then eventually came

754
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 3: to the point I'm like, you know, I don't think

755
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,480
Speaker 3: you need another course. They're a person who kind of

756
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: kept on signing up for courses, Like I think you

757
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 3: need a planner. I think you need to hire a

758
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,279
Speaker 3: financial planner because all you want to know is do

759
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 3: I have enough for retirement. That's something that's very specific

760
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 3: to you. I don't have all your info. A planner

761
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 3: can help with that, and that's not something maybe you

762
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 3: can feel confident enough to figure that out on your own,

763
00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: because even if you know there's great calculators and calculations

764
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 3: you can do on your own, sometimes you just need

765
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 3: someone else to do the calculation also and be like, oh, great,

766
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: we got the same number.

767
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 4: Okay, great, that's that's all I want.

768
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 3: And so when it comes to things like trauma and

769
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 3: just some of the kind of internal issues you're dealing with.

770
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 3: There's a lot you can do on your own, but

771
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 3: at a certain point you're probably going to want someone

772
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 3: who actually has a background in mental health to guide

773
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 3: you onto kind of the next phase of your path.

774
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: And I say this too because while I was writing

775
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 3: the book, and I've saw, you know, seen a therapist

776
00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 3: for a number of years, gosh, probably going back to

777
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 3: I mean consistently since twenty twenty.

778
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 4: Like most of us, like you see therapist. This is

779
00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 4: a lot going on in twenty twenty.

780
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 3: And he was wonderful, But it wasn't until I started

781
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 3: writing this book that I'm like, you know, I still

782
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 3: saw him, but I'm like, you know, we're not really

783
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,760
Speaker 3: getting deep. I'm not really sure if this is really working.

784
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 3: So I started to see a couple other different therapists,

785
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 3: mainly just to see what different types of therapy are

786
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 3: out there and how could I describe them for my book.

787
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: And then I ended up doing a lot of sessions

788
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 3: with them and doing a lot of work on myself,

789
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 3: and they were able to make me experience breakthroughs I've

790
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 3: never experienced, and connections with myself, my childhood, and my

791
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 3: money that I know I couldn't have done just on

792
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:39,919
Speaker 3: my own.

793
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 2: I think even in the book you mentioned how previously

794
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 2: maybe it was CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, and so, but

795
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 2: I get the impression that you've kind of ventured into

796
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,439
Speaker 2: different types. Is there a specific approach that you think

797
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 2: helps folks when it comes to financial issues or does

798
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 2: it depend more on I guess, the individual and what

799
00:37:58,000 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: they're going through.

800
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 4: I think definitely depends on the individual.

801
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,160
Speaker 3: CBT may be perfect for most people, that's usually kind

802
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 3: of the route that most people I think start, But

803
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: if you are dealing with some you know, really heavy

804
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 3: emotional wounds that you can't really figure out, and my

805
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 3: CBT therapist that wasn't really his area of expertise, that's

806
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 3: when I'm like, you know what, I'm going to look

807
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 3: into EMDR. I'm going to look into internal family systems.

808
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 3: I did some research about them, and they are really

809
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 3: specific to trauma.

810
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 4: I'm like, I'm going to test those out.

811
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 3: I read a really great book too, especially with internal

812
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,160
Speaker 3: family systems, because it's fairly not as well known, but

813
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: it's fascinating and I think it's amazing.

814
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:37,759
Speaker 4: There's a book called No.

815
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:39,719
Speaker 3: Bad Parts that talks all about it, so you have

816
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 3: a better understanding of what you're getting yourself into. But

817
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 3: doing for me EMDR, which is becoming more common with

818
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 3: trauma treatment. And then IFS. Those were things that previously

819
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 3: I didn't even know about, and those were the things

820
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 3: that really moved the dial for me, especially IFS, which

821
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 3: I would have never thought about, because it is when

822
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 3: you learn about it, it sounds a bit woo woo,

823
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 3: and I'm not woo woo in any like, I just

824
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 3: don't believe in anything like that kind of stuff like

825
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 3: meditation blah. You know, I'm like, can't do it. But

826
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 3: this was just something that really connected with me. I

827
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 3: think largely because I'm a very visual person and it's

828
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 3: all about kind of visualization.

829
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 1: Very cool.

830
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm even going to consider therapy drill go's Like,

831
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 2: you know, we all see Dennis and doctors. Well, jess

832
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: get jokes on you because I don't see those guys here.

833
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 2: But maybe I will go and see a mental health professional.

834
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm just married to on it for free.

835
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:35,879
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sure she loves that.

836
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 2: We've got a few more questions to get to with

837
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 2: Jessica will gets all that right after this.

838
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: Our we're back. We're still talking about the hidden barriers

839
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: to financial freedom, breaking through those things. And it is

840
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:57,840
Speaker 1: amazing how much just what we've gone through in our past,

841
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: how it goes unexplored, examined, and it's really hard to

842
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: change the life and the trajectory of your life when

843
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 1: it remains unexamined. So I think Jessica's bringing out You're

844
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: bringing out a lot of great stuff here, Jessica, which

845
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: we appreciate. Towards the end of the book, you say something.

846
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 1: You highlight the fact that getting better with money and

847
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: actually having more of it can equate to less happiness,

848
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: which sounds counterintuitive, and especially with more recent studies coming

849
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: out about hey, higher net worth levels of income actually

850
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: do tend to increase happiness levels more than we previously thought.

851
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: How do you think about the role of money and

852
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: happiness and why do you think that more of it

853
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 1: might actually not lead to more happiness.

854
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 3: So it really depends on where you're coming from. So

855
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 3: there is some you know, there's that study that we

856
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 3: all know. Now, if you have a seventy thousand dollars

857
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 3: income per year, that's your kind of the happiness kind

858
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 3: of limit, and above that you're not going to be happier. Well,

859
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,400
Speaker 3: that scientist and another scientist did another study together to

860
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 3: actually kind of expand, and what they really found was

861
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,799
Speaker 3: you can increase your happiness with more money only if

862
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 3: you're already happy. But if you're not happy, if you're miserable,

863
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 3: more money is not going to make you less miserable.

864
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 3: It cannot solve that, you know, wound for you. It

865
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: cannot heal that for you. Money is just going to

866
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 3: be a band aid. And I think possibly that is

867
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 3: why we see all of these very wealthy individuals accrue

868
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: more and more and more, and you're like, why are

869
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 3: they what are they chasing? What are they running away

870
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 3: from or trying to, you know, get away from or chase.

871
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: And it could be the fact that they think that

872
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: more money, more power, more this that will make them

873
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 3: happy or something like that. It just always kind of

874
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 3: reminds me of Citizen Kane or something like that, with

875
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: you know, it's like, no, it was the childhood drum.

876
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 3: So I think it's important to recognize that, you know,

877
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,959
Speaker 3: because I'm a person that's like, yeah, build, well save,

878
00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: take care of your finances. That's great, but let's not

879
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 3: forget that money is not happiness. It could potentially help you,

880
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 3: you know, be more happy, but you already have to

881
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 3: be happy. So that's why I'm like therapy first, and

882
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 3: then let's see how we could build wealth, because otherwise

883
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 3: you're going to be like me where I was building

884
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,759
Speaker 3: wealth and hitting all these milestones, and I was miserable

885
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 3: because money was never enough for me to know figure

886
00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 3: out what was going on on the inside.

887
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,400
Speaker 2: Going back to the types of therapy that you were mentioned,

888
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 2: like you specifically talked about how it sounded like ifs

889
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: for you, so that internal family systems, like it makes

890
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 2: me think about the fact, So Joel's got three kids,

891
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: I've got four kids. And for those who might want kids,

892
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: but bottom line, like we want them to develop a

893
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: healthy relationship with money, among other things. And so what

894
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: advice do you have for parents so that we're not

895
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 2: perpetuating negative money beliefs to the next generation. And I

896
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 2: basically just want to make sure I'm not like messing, yeah,

897
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 2: messing my kids' brains up.

898
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 1: Forcing them into therapy at age sixteen.

899
00:42:56,120 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know, parenting. I've been saying this

900
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 3: on a lot of interviews because that's the question I

901
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 3: guess like, how do I not mess up my kids?

902
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 3: It's like, listen, I'm not a parent myself. My older

903
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 3: sister is, and I see how difficult it is every day.

904
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 3: She absolutely loves me a mom, but it is the

905
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 3: hardest job in the world. So props to any parent

906
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 3: for doing that work. And you're never going to get

907
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: it perfectly perfect. Just do the best that you can.

908
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 3: But I think if you do the work on yourself

909
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 3: to heal your relationship with money, it'll be a lot

910
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,360
Speaker 3: easier and be more clear on how to then teach

911
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 3: your kids to have a healthy relationship with money, because

912
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: you're not going to be just perpetuating these things that

913
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 3: maybe you've adopted from your parents and they adopted from

914
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,319
Speaker 3: their parents and so on and so forth. You're going

915
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,360
Speaker 3: to have that stuff figured out, so you can not

916
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 3: say certain things that oh, my gosh, I didn't even

917
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:47,879
Speaker 3: realize I said that.

918
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 4: You know.

919
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 3: It's just certain idioms or things that you're like, oh

920
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 3: my gosh, you know, like money doesn't or you know.

921
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 3: What's one that we always hear, especially as millennials, is like, oh,

922
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 3: renting is throwing your money away, And you're like, no,

923
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 3: that's not true. I mean, there's a lot of different

924
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 3: ways to look at it, and that, you know, and

925
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 3: that's something that my parents would say, and I think

926
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 3: their parents said. And then as a you know, I

927
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 3: felt guilty for renting in my twenties, even though that

928
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,759
Speaker 3: was the only way I could afford housing. So it's like,

929
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 3: that's not healthy, that's not positive. You want to teach

930
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 3: your children that money should not have control over you.

931
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 3: It's the other way around. You control money. You do

932
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: have to make certain choices, and certain choices have consequences,

933
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 3: and certain choices will you know, provide you a lot

934
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 3: of freedom and opportunity. So I think really showing them

935
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 3: that money is a tool. You are the hand that

936
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: wields it, and here are the things that you need

937
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 3: to know. And it's okay if you make a mistake.

938
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 3: Everyone makes a mistake. Just make sure that you learn

939
00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 3: something from that mistake. And try to when you're, you know,

940
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 3: talking about money, not use shame or blame or judgment

941
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:53,680
Speaker 3: because it's very easy to do that because again probably

942
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 3: comes from our past. Really try to listen and be open.

943
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: And I mean, if you're already talking to your kids

944
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 3: about money, that's already a great step because most of us,

945
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 3: like my parents, refuse to talk about money as a kid,

946
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 3: like I remember asking them how much do you earn?

947
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 3: Or how much did this house cost? And they'd be like, no,

948
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 3: we can't talk about that. That's that's inappropriate or that's

949
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 3: real believe So it made you know, it's like having

950
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: those conversations, making it open, that open dialogue, I think

951
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:18,919
Speaker 3: is a really great first step.

952
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: No, that's great advice. And it's amazing how there are

953
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: so many other things that in our lives we go

954
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,319
Speaker 1: back to our childhood and we say, wait a second,

955
00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: do I actually believe that thing that I was taught

956
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 1: or you at least kind of go back through it.

957
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,520
Speaker 1: But with money, sometimes we never go back and question

958
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 1: those things. And I think it's it's such an important

959
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: tool and important play such an important role in our lives.

960
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 1: It's it's crucial to at least explore kind of how

961
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,520
Speaker 1: we think about money and why we think that way

962
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 1: about money. Jessica, this has been a great conversation. Thanks

963
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. Where can our audience work?

964
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: Can the How to Money listeners find out more about

965
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: your new book?

966
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 4: Exactly?

967
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 3: Yes, thank you so much for having me I love

968
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 3: be on your show. You guys are amazing. It's called

969
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 3: Everything But Money, The Hidden Barriers between You and financial Freedom.

970
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 3: You can find it at any books are I don't

971
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 3: know in the US where it'll be in the physical bookstores, no,

972
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 3: no idea because I don't live there, but it's definitely

973
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,759
Speaker 3: online everywhere and you can find more info about that

974
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 3: also on my website Jessica moorehouse dot com slash book.

975
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 3: You can also follow me on Instagram at Jessica Imoorhouse

976
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 3: and also have got a podcast called the More Money

977
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 3: Podcast if you want to check it out.

978
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: Awesome, right, I bet the books already in Minnesota because

979
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: it's kind of so close to Canada, you.

980
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 4: Know, you know what we're basically, yeah, we are neighbors.

981
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean only feel is being delivered by horseback?

982
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 2: Would it not be all the way down here in

983
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 2: the Southern.

984
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 1: Stake the Mounties road down a couple of boxes.

985
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 2: So, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today.

986
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:40,000
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me all right, man, that was a

987
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 1: good chat. And it is true. It's one of those

988
00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 1: things we just don't think about very often, how much

989
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: our money history impacts how our current lives are playing out.

990
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: It's true. So I think this was a good reminder

991
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: and some good information there from Jessica. What was your

992
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:56,680
Speaker 1: big takeaway from this conversation?

993
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: Mine landed about halfway through a conversation, and it's when

994
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 2: she was talking about trauma and specifically, and I love

995
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 2: that she phrased it this way. She pointed out that

996
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 2: it is not an excuse, but it's just an explanation

997
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 2: as to why perhaps that you behave a certain way,

998
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,719
Speaker 2: why you have certain struggles, right Like why you might

999
00:47:15,800 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: know the right thing to do, but you fail to

1000
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 2: do the right thing. And I think that that's key

1001
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 2: in understanding why it is that you do certain things,

1002
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: because if you want to tackle those things, well, all

1003
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 2: of a sudden, you've got a more hopefully a more

1004
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 2: effective toolbook, right like a more effective playbook, some different

1005
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,359
Speaker 2: strategies that you might be able to put to put

1006
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 2: into practice that somewhat address some of the things that

1007
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 2: you might struggle with as an individual, Like she was

1008
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: talking about somebody who might struggle to invest well instead

1009
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 2: of self directing your investments. Oh maybe this is somebody.

1010
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 2: This is an instance where you should work with an

1011
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 2: advisor that keeps you over.

1012
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: The hurdle of your own limiting beliefs or the places where.

1013
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 2: Or ah, you know, like, or the distractions that you're

1014
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 2: just whatever it is that's keeping you from making those investments.

1015
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 2: Automating your investments might be an incredible.

1016
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: Strategy for some of those folks.

1017
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, I think it's helpful to know why it

1018
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:07,479
Speaker 2: is that we do certain things. But like she said,

1019
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 2: it's not an excuse. And ultimately, the power does rest

1020
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: with us to take the actions that we need to

1021
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 2: in our lives.

1022
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: So nobody's gonna do it for us. Nobody means we

1023
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: might need help, right, and we might. Whether that's the

1024
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 1: how of money Facebook group, whether that is literally the

1025
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 1: help of a professional therapist, that's great. We all need

1026
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,279
Speaker 1: help at times, whether that's your partner, your best friend,

1027
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: whatever it is. None of those people are gonna do

1028
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: it on our behalf.

1029
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 4: That's true.

1030
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: I think my big takeaway was when she said that

1031
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 1: we can use money as the solution that whether all

1032
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,879
Speaker 1: across the spectrum, whether it's spending or hoarding, we tend

1033
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: to think that money is going to fix our problems

1034
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: and it never does. And she even touched on that

1035
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: at the end too, talking about we're talking about happiness. Happiness, Yeah,

1036
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: how like, yeah, more money, I'll make you happy or

1037
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:53,080
Speaker 1: if you're happy, and if you're unhappy, sorry, it's not

1038
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: gonna do the trick that has to be found elsewhere.

1039
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: I think money can be this sort of soothing mechanism

1040
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 1: in our lives, trying to cover up maybe some of

1041
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:05,359
Speaker 1: those places where we feel inadequate. I know, even at times, Matt.

1042
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,319
Speaker 1: That was how I treated it early on because of

1043
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 1: kind of what I went through growing up that I

1044
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 1: shared here with Jessica just a second ago, but that

1045
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: it was that sort of okay, if I gather enough,

1046
00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:18,520
Speaker 1: if I have enough, But there was never really an

1047
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 1: enough amount. It never felt like enough, And so I

1048
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: was trying to sue something that was ultimately not suitable

1049
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: with money. And it can be hard to figure that out,

1050
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: and it could take time to figure that out, but

1051
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: it's important to do that so you can have a

1052
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 1: healthy relationship with money and so that you're not I guess,

1053
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: just endlessly chasing something that you're never going to be

1054
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: able to catch up to. Yeah.

1055
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 2: I always like to think of money as like a

1056
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,400
Speaker 2: megaphone or an amplifier of what it is that you

1057
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 2: are already feeling or what it is that you're already doing.

1058
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 2: If you are a generous person and you like to

1059
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: give your money away, okay, well, earning six figures for

1060
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 2: the first time is going to allow you to give

1061
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 2: out a higher level and same thing when it comes

1062
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,759
Speaker 2: to just how all the other actions we take with

1063
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: our money and how we sort of feel like at

1064
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 2: our baseline regardless of whether or not there's money. But

1065
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 2: the beer that you and I, of course we enjoyed

1066
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: a craft beer today and American craft beer. That's what

1067
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: it says right here, is says Belgian inspired American crafted.

1068
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:10,799
Speaker 1: The same from Canada. Unlike ow guests, I.

1069
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: Wish we would have had a Canadian craft beer on.

1070
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,480
Speaker 2: But this is from Taxman like the Beatles, I guess

1071
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: tax and it's called deduction. This is a Belgian style

1072
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 2: d bell ale or double for the Americans out there, Well,

1073
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: your thoughts on this one.

1074
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,840
Speaker 1: Oh man. This is like caramelized sugar, vibes, raisin caramel,

1075
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: that kind of that kind of taste flavors going on,

1076
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: which is classic Belgian du.

1077
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 2: Belle yea and Belgian yeasts and funkness going on.

1078
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: Which I love that style of beer, and this is

1079
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,879
Speaker 1: I feel like, approachable from like a light brown ale

1080
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: kind of vibe, but it's got a ton of different

1081
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: flavors that you don't typically get in American style beer.

1082
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: You might get a little bit, but you don't get

1083
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: this like full rounded Belgian sort of funky dark fruit

1084
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 1: notes going on at the same time. That's a totally

1085
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:00,760
Speaker 1: Belgian vibe, which I appreciate.

1086
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, it reminds me of overwrite bananas, which is when

1087
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 2: we first poured it, like I was smelling it and

1088
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 2: I was just like, oh man, this, I feel like

1089
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 2: this has major banana ether kind of notes going on.

1090
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 2: But then you drink it and it's not overly sweet.

1091
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: It's it was fairly dry.

1092
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: And it kind of rounds out with some of those

1093
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 2: you know, those Dungeon spices as well. Really enjoyable. Glad

1094
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 2: we got to enjoy a beer from a brewery that

1095
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: I've never I don't think I've ever had a beer

1096
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 2: from these.

1097
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:24,799
Speaker 1: Would you pick these up?

1098
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: Well?

1099
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: This was listener Todd picked this one up for us well,

1100
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 1: and I think he brought this back from a trip

1101
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 1: that he was on. I forget if he said it

1102
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: was for a wedding or if he went.

1103
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:38,840
Speaker 2: For a race Bargersville, Indiana.

1104
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,120
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so he was up there recently killed. The

1105
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: label also had a he thought of us while he

1106
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: was up there, which we appreciate. Yes, we had a

1107
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: little hot of money running club thing here in town

1108
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: the other day. And if you're a runner, you want

1109
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:54,640
Speaker 1: to go for a run with us, I don't reach out.

1110
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll make it happen again. And uh, we'll ripe

1111
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: Todd and make him come back.

1112
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 2: Maybe I'll even be there myself. Maybe, But that's gonna.

1113
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 1: Be it for this episode.

1114
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 2: You can find our show notes up on the website

1115
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: at howdomoney dot com. We'll make sure to link to

1116
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: all the different spots where you can find Jessica on

1117
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: the interwebs. And that'll be it, buddy. So until next time,

1118
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: best friends Out, Best Friends Out.